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On August 03 2016 20:17 J Roc wrote:
Unless there is a counter claim we arent lynching rels. And this is a really bad play if rels is scum as it would at best trade out a used blue for himself.
Rels is vig.
This. Agreed.
To be honest Skynx's reaction to the claim is really weird. It'd be a total waste to fakeclaim as mafia here and a lot of people, including myself, were looking at Rels for scum. So its really unlikely there'll be a counter claim.
Its a good early claim to prevent wasting the day faffing about over Rels.In light of all that's gone on I'm going to have to re-read everything later.
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On August 03 2016 14:08 scott31337 wrote:We got into a car accident today buying another vehicle (fucking my luck right?  We're out of the hospital now but my brain isn't playing mafia tonight - it checked out a few hours ago. I took the day off work tomorrow so I'll read over then and give my thoughts.
God almighty, hope you and everyone else there are alright.
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On August 04 2016 08:17 beentheredonethat wrote:
...although his posting volume has dropped from D1 into a more lazy D2 so far.
Yeah I'm sorry about that.
Between the fact I didn't go to bed until like 5am last night, plus the fact I've been pretty under the weather today, plus the fact that its a Wednesday (and Wednesday for me means new anime episodes and new TV episodes), plus the way the game is going...just not felt like starting to filter dive again today. -_-
I'm going to come back tomorrow and try to dig through filters. Originally I liked Lunaticman so had been mentally setting him aside but since a train appears to be getting rolling on him I guess he'll be top priority.
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Well...I was townleaning Lunatic. But in light of everyone seeming to like silent's case I guess I'll go stream of consciousness on his filter with a more cynical eye before I actually look over the case, try formulate some thoughts of my own:
- Two page filter. A bit thin really but I guess that's the nature of this game, there's some super-low content posters. That being said its less of a filter than Stutters or Grack and they're both DEAD so...yeah, not great.
- Mentions lynching Grac 'from what happened last game'. NAI honestly. If I was being REALLY cynical I'd say this is a super easy way to set oneself up for a soft push 'oh he was like this last game in these ways etc etc' but I don't think its that. Talks a bit about it in the next post too. I just see this as NAI salt really.
- Bunch of nothing. Then replies to my comic con post. NAI at the time but in light of the later stuff talking about how wonderful my posts are and stuff..is this a start of a pocketing attempt maybe? Very tentative but eh I got nothing to this point.
- Town's RB for the garbage he was posting. Honestly I don't particularly like this. I'm one of those firmly believing all that RB crap is NAI. Forced read maybe? I was dismissing this as something that didn't matter last time but I guess there's a chance it might.
- Next post was one I thought was a strong point towards excluding a Lunatic/RB team but I'm not so sure anymore. My basis for that was that he wouldn't undermine a fellow mafia by saying "oh just ignore his reads, they won't be productive" so early on but now that I think on it isn't that just a stupidly easy way to deal with a rogue 'crazy' mafia ally? "Oh ignore this guy because he's craaaaaazy, haha, he's probably town but he's crazy. So you can safely just let him sit there under the radar and forget about him." I dunno anymore. It could go either way.
- Complains about Race's spam. NAI. If he's town then the spam is frustrating. If he's scum and Race is town then its an easy call to make (although I'd more have expected him to say that RB is scummy for the spam than town if that were the case). If both are scum then a "come on, what the hell, man?" isn't unexpected to either kick Race into shape or to distance himself from Race.
- Next is the reply to Skynx. Originally I liked this. I felt a mafia would be more aggressive in pocketing (if Skynx is town) or wouldn't want to put themselves next to a team member so early (if Skynx is mafia). Lets go super cynical again: could be more gentle pocketing. I don't think so though.
- Next post is actually super weird on reflection. This one:
On August 01 2016 04:36 Lunaticman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 00:55 Grackaroni wrote:On August 01 2016 00:50 Stutters695 wrote:On August 01 2016 00:38 Grackaroni wrote:On August 01 2016 00:25 Stutters695 wrote:On July 31 2016 22:48 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Hey guys, totally reasonable Moosy chipping in here. My totally logical thoughts say that Race Bannon is spamming for the sake of spamming. As a man who employs this technique myself I say it's safe to ignore every post he makes and address him on a later date since he's basically guaranteed to act like a sack of potatoes all of D1. Slight issue is that's totally unreasonable. He was completely capable of producing readable content as both alignments in previous games. This is probably an attempt to shift his meta, although it's almost inconsequential because it is incredibly anti-town. You should read Race Bannon's blog. Page 2 is where it starts to really get good. Can I get a tldr? Gonna lynch him? It is just the LONGEST stream of gibberish that I have ever seen. Celestial is right it looks like Race just got banned for 2 weeks, so a replacement should be on the way. Based on his play so far I think he was more likely to be town. I don't know how you came to that conclusion but since he is being replaced can you please elaborate on this read. Also this is a good way to get town cred now that he is getting replaced.
Lunatic posts that he thinks Race is town because of the spamming. Grack posts, after Race got banned, that he reckons Race was town. Then Lunatic jumps down Grack's throat with "I don't know how you came to that conclusion" and rather sharply points out that its an easy way to get town points now that RB is being replaced. Um...maybe the exact same way you did? Your first read on RB was town, then as soon as people challenged that you backed away a bit, and then further by criticising him but never actually going as far as calling him scum for it. Originally I gave this post a town pass with only a brief glance on the basis it was someone actually DOING something constructive and challenging someone. But the content isn't all that great in light of Grack's town flip, nor is the consistency with previous posts.
- Defending BTDT against JRoc. That was a godawful post by BTDT honestly and still is. Lunatic tries to give an excuse by saying that BTDT is trying to say there's no way to trust RB's reads but that somewhat misses the point of what BTDT was saying. Then calls is moot, brushing all that aside. Policy lynch comment is kinda NAI; could be a genuine town thought at just not liking policy lynches, could be a scum looking for an easy way to call others scum on the basis of "you don't have a real reason for your vote!"
- Question to Moosy was genuinely good. I was interested in why myself (don't think I played with Moosy in any of my previous games, though I'd have to check, and I tend not to go digging for meta that I don't have personal experience of). Mentioning cutting back on posting isn't great tbh, easy lurk excuse but this whole game been full of lurkers.
- Lunatic challenging Kelsier is kinda towny here. However the way he goes about it is a bit weird too. Rather than attacking the not wanting to play because of RB (which, whilst understandable, is very unhelpful), instead he's attacking the vote on RB itself. Calling the vote on RB a "mistake". Which we don't know. RB/scott is not confirmed town. Then makes a push on Kelsier saying he'd be okay voting Kelsier. That's okay I guess, a bit premature maybe but its D1 with an inactive thread and pushing an inactive wagon isn't the worst thing in the world if you got nothing else.
- More pocketing me maybe? Or just genuinely liking the post? Stated last time I didn't like the fawning really. This post is a whole load of nothing anyway. Saying nothing new.
- This back and forth with Skynx is getting weird too. He's really focusing on Grack quite a bit here but placing himself very middle-ground on it. "Probably town but he's fooled me once before". So...who exactly ARE you red reading at this point? I'm clearly green to Lunatic here. Grack was red now neutral. RB was red now neutral. Where are the reds? Is this a game of 'everyone is town and null, isn't that nice?'
- Next one again praising me but gently pushing off criticism of RB/scott. Again. Hmm.
- Wouldn't mind lynching Rels. NAI, though for a kinda towny reason (he says flying under the radar got Rels off five lynches in a row last game). Rels was totally inactive at that point and was going to get replaced or modkilled if he kept going that way. Lynching a totally inactive player is a super easy play to make as either alignment, at least its super easy for mafia if that player is town. And Rels is unclaimed vig at this point.
- Another pretty weird post:
On August 02 2016 04:05 Lunaticman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 03:12 beentheredonethat wrote:On August 01 2016 12:11 Lunaticman wrote:On August 01 2016 11:44 -Celestial- wrote:
That'll have to do for tonight I'm afraid. Its nearly four in the morning. My brain was already starting to feel numb about half way through writing that. First I just want to say what an incredible post, I love it! Also no mafia would ever write a post that is so coherent so you are the best town lean in the game for me atm. Tbh I didnt even realize rels was in the game, my god bring out another salt shacker for me lol. Yeah also I think I misunderstood the term bussing, I think I was thinking of like a train? When someone stacks votes on a player. I dont know the proper terminology for it. Be back in a couple of hours from work. This is a post that is absolutely empty and has no content at all. I can see why you think that but at the time of the posting the game was almost dead. Also it contained effort which I liked.
What I THINK is going on here is BTDT is calling out Lunatic's post for being utterly contentless, which I mentioned above. Lunatic replies as if its about my post. Kinda deceptive; dunno if a genuine mistake or an attempt to fool people into overlooking his contentless post. Do not like.
- Going pretty hard on Rels at this point. Rels nowhere to be seen. Super easy push to make given Rels is totally inactive. That said I actually agree that the principle of "save him he'll help later" is an utter garbage argument to make. A similar argument got made for prplhz in a game I previously played on the basis of people 'mind melding' with his reads; he did jack all and it took a huge push to get him lynched and he was mafia.
- Grack actually calls out Lunatic here for Lunatic's town read on RB. That totally slipped my mind for a while there. While I don't hate Lunatic's argument (no mafia would do that because policy lynch) I don't really agree with it either given how RB was acting and that he got banned. It doesn't make scott town, no matter how many time Lunatic says it.
- There's an argument over posting useful stuff between Grack and Lunatic. Which Lunatic deflects a bit by saying that if we're going after people for being useless we should lynch Rels. But...that's not exactly what Grack said. Hmmm...
- Votes Rels. NAI. The above stuff is a bit indicative maybe but the vote itself is not. Rels is GONE at this point.
- Getting super defensive against what is actually not a bad argument and attacking the most frivolous part of it. No. Bad. Really don't like.
- Big read post. Scums Grack (so was I, okay fine), Rels (un-ccd vig) and Kelsier (kinda scummy but totally inactive, easy read). Outright towns himself (lol) and mderg (mderg wagon was rolling at this point...setting himself up to claim town points and push Rels D2? Or genuinely feeling that?). Townleans me (easy read to make), scott (who he's been soft reading all game) and Skynx. Explicitly teams Grack and Rels but also explicitly says I don't think both are mafia, which means if one flips he can still push the other. Brings up Moosy's warning, eh, NAI. Complains about Kelsier. Makes a point to mention BTDT as being better than Kelsier, but doesn't comment on much else, which I find interesting.
- Next explaining his reads a bit. Pocketing me. Keeping shade on Moosy and Stutters (I honestly don't know how ANYONE could have been doing anything other than hard towning Stutters at this point) but 'more towny that not' nulls. Still soft defending scott.
- Finally coming around to the idea of reading scott another way. But only under the sustained stuff from Skynx and JRoc. I really don't like how hard it is to make him realise its a poor way to read scott for so long, he's clinging to it. Then again, clinging to a read isn't necessarily scum motivated.
- Wants to lynch Rels. "There's a mafia between Rels and Grac". More soft defending of scott/RB. Really desperate to push the idea that since they did the mislynch one HAS to be mafia. But since the lynch was town I don't really agree. Its easier for a mafia to jump on a bit later so they're not as exposed to criticism. Mafia leading a train is dangerous; not outside the realm of possibility especially with a player like Rels, but definitely more risky than the gamestate was worth. With everything so fluid there was no reason for Rels to go so hard on it if he's mafia; more gentle guiding would still likely have resulted in a strong wagon. Which, until his claim, was my main (and only real) argument against lynching Rels.
- Final post about the Rels lynch and how it must make him mafia because of how he went about it. Which I disagree with as above.
Conclusions: My previous reads were largely based on how I generally 'felt' about where Lunatic was coming from and the tone of his posts, which was a rather haphazard town. I gave a probably inordinate amount of credit merely for trying to get the game going. But now I'm taking a critical eye to what he's actually DONE...its not great honestly.
On reflection I think I might be okay putting my vote on Lunatic here. I mean, we were clearly going in the wrong direction given the Grack flip so going a completely different way might help.
Also tentatively...Lunatic/scott team possible? Lunatic has been doing an awful lot of soft defending on scott and, earlier, on RB. But also challenged Grack for townreading RB. With maybe a side-order on BTDT?
I kinda want to take another look at BTDT and scott. Also Skynx. I've done some re-reading of filters but I'd hoped to do streams of consciousness on all of them but now I'm not entirely sure how much time I'll have this evening. I just found out I'm going out at 6pm (in twenty minutes) unfortunately which will make casing difficult...
Okay let me read silent's case. I really don't think I'll have time to comment unfortunately but if I like it I'll probably take a gamble and just vote Lunatic. I should be back before deadline anyway to change if needed.
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Just enough time to comment now that I've read it: silent's case is good. Some of the same points I found just above.
Will vote Lunatic for now.
On a side note: I think if we lynch Lunatic:
- if he flips scum we lynch scott (on the basis of all the defending, despite the scumminess)
- if he flips town we have to rethink, but I'll probably be back on viewing silent very suspiciously
##Vote: Lunaticman
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I'm back now from being out. Not caught up yet.
No alternative wagon makes me feel very icky though.
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On August 05 2016 02:45 beentheredonethat wrote:
Having read your post, I find it highly interesting that you get me into a connection with Lunatic, given that I voted him D1 and didnt stop to bring him up to people's conciousness again and again.
Actually it wasn't anything to do with Lunatic.
It was a combination of your constantly defending scott (who has actually done very little as far as I'm concerned and the stuff he has done I'm not a huge fan of) and this post here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/511961-newbie-student-mafia-xxii?page=19#364
On August 02 2016 03:39 Skynx wrote:
This Grack vs btdt/stutters is very unlikely tvtt, please keep going.
I still think that statement holds up. But Grack flipped town and stutters flipped down, which leaves the scum stirring the pot in that fight to be you. I also hadn't actually explicitly looked at your filter at that point; having glanced through it now to reply to this post of yours yes, I notice you're attacking Lunatic a bunch. My problem now is I honestly think if Lunatic flips red then scott flips red. And if scott flips red then you flip red. Which leaves me in a quandary now; because I'm not sure that if Lunatic flips red then you flip red.
However your defensiveness here is absolutely fascinating. Which is making me wonder if you've just solved the game for me. Lunatic wasn't getting lynched day one with the way it was going so you could start attacking him to distance. Now that everyone's reads are shaken up by the Grack mislynch then he might actually get lynched, but your last read thing didn't even comment on the ongoing discussion. Instead it brought up J Roc. Leaving yourself free to set up a secondary wagon if you want.
Youre relucting to vote Lunatic or at least I take that from your wording. Why?
Because I'd been townreading him based on tone all game. I explicitly stated that in my post ("My previous reads were largely based on how I generally 'felt' about where Lunatic was coming from and the tone of his posts, which was a rather haphazard town."). Did you miss that part?
Problem is his tone and his arguments don't match up.
Also, I feel like youre wrong on scott, he's in my town circle. He's fairly actice, pushy, and I can see where most of his reads come from.
Absolutely disagree. scott's filter is poor and he's being super, super lazy. He's got literally like a page and a half filter. That is NOT 'fairly active'. And he's pushed nobody.
Actually. I'm going to 'stream of consciousness' his filter after catching up I think. Its super short.
I actually let go of my town lean of you. If Lunatic flips red, I can easily see you bussing here to gain towncred. I am also a bit paranoid about a scott, you and lunatic team but for now the only reason to add Scott to that list is the pterequisite that you are scum, so its highly associative.
Okay now this is super, super weird on your part. My current PoE would be Lunatic > Scott. I made that clear in my last post. Why am I bussing BOTH of my scummates, one of whom has a wagon on them and one of whom is largely being overlooked?
More to the point you've been townreading scott for ages now, for what I think are crappy reasons. But suddenly he's scum if I'm scum?
Going full paranoia here...I know my alignment. However nobody has to believe my alignment or my reads to work through this hypothetical scenario that you're potentially setting up:
- Lunatic gets lynched. Flips scum.
- You argue (assumed successfully) that this makes me scum because I was bussing.
- I get lynched. I flip town (again, you don't have to believe me, just take it in this example).
- You then argue that this means scott couldn't possibly be scum because of what you said in this post here, that scott can only be scum if I'm scum.
- scum!scott gets towned all nice and pretty and scum wins the game because nobody wants to lynch him.
Sorry, no. This is rubbish. I don't care if people think I'm scum, please feel free to lynch me D3 (we can afford one more mislynch I think). But if you do then the PoE should probably be BTDT and scott after it. PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN TO BTDT'S ARGUMENTS HERE, SCOTT ABSOLUTELY CAN BE SCUM IF I FLIP TOWN.
I'm more scared about you pulling off this strategy than I am about being lynched to be honest because its very clever deception by association...
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On August 05 2016 03:13 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Celestial, was there actually a post where Lunatic defended btdt?
That's how I read this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/511961-newbie-student-mafia-xxii?page=13#251
On August 01 2016 04:40 Lunaticman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 04:27 J Roc wrote:On August 01 2016 02:16 beentheredonethat wrote:
Kill Race Bannon before the replacement. Best kill so far. A player that has already stirred so much chaos and made himself unreadable will never be able to fully establish himself as town thus he should be killed asap. Find it interesting that he wants to lynch the spot for reasons other than policy. I think he trying to say the same thing I was that if he is town there is no way to trust his reads? because it was so filled with gibberish. But that is moot now anyway. And also calling something a "policy lynch" is extremly lazy isn't it better to say why you want to kill them? He was confusing for example?
I read this as trying to make BTDT's absolutely godawful early post sound better. Followed by dismissing the whole thing as irrelevant now.
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On August 05 2016 03:16 beentheredonethat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 02:55 Rels wrote:On August 05 2016 02:45 beentheredonethat wrote:
Youre relucting to vote Lunatic or at least I take that from your wording. Why? Also, I feel like youre wrong on scott, he's in my town circle. He's fairly actice, pushy, and I can see where most of his reads come from.
I actually let go of my town lean of you. If Lunatic flips red, I can easily see you bussing here to gain towncred. I am also a bit paranoid about a scott, you and lunatic team but for now the only reason to add Scott to that list is the pterequisite that you are scum, so its highly associative. I don't get how scott goes from "in my town circle" to "in my Lunatic's likely partners". Thats why I said highly associative. If lunatic plus celestial are scum, I can see Scott scum. Last sentence of my post says "only reason to put him on that List", thought that makes my stance clear.
This is garbage as above.
DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THIS. SCOTT CAN STILL BE SCUM EVEN IF I FLIP TOWN.
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On August 05 2016 05:34 Skynx wrote:
Celest who you wanna lynch? Lunatic won't flip scum.
I kinda still want to lynch Lunatic but I'm hating the lack of a secondary wagon.
I'm wondering if we should just pull the trigger on scott to be honest. His filter is garbage, I'm going to run through it now.
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Okay, scott filter:
- First post insisting that he knew RB was town and lo-and-behold is town. This is totally NAI. Its basically a townclaim, but its very cutely done I have to say.
- Pulls up the people on the RB wagon. Wasn't an unreasonable place to start to be fair.
- Points a finger a BTDT and does absolutely nothing with it. No real follow-up. And the only real reason for that finger is that awful early post which was eventually just passed over. Its a super easy push to get out of by just posting something a bit better.
- Says he likes silent's D1 post.
- Says J Roc's post looks towny for pointing out BTDT's terrible post. Sure, it is. But that's also an easy call to make. Everyone thought that post was awful.
- Agreeing with silent's follow up. Calling him reasonable. Nothing else, no further questions.
- Replies to my big post saying he only added people who actually voted RB when I challenged him why I wasn't on his potential scum list (because I didn't like RB's posts either but didn't actually vote).
- Basically nulls Moosy when asked by Moosy about himself.
- Challenges mderg about not liking his posts.
- Challenges him again. Claims that mderg is trying to get him mislynched. Posts a bunch of reads but no real reasoning. Wants to lynch either BTDT or mderg.
- Calls J Roc town (easy call imo at that point) for challenging him. Then shade on mderg again.
- Asks BTDT for two lynches. I dunno if this ever gets followed up though. Soft question.
- Towns Stutters and Grack. Doesn't really seem to elaborate on this. Backs off a bit from claiming BTDT as scum (saying he improved) but still heavily scumming mderg.
- Asks Rels for some "magic" when Rels finally turns up.
- Asks Skynx to re-read mderg's filter.
- Jumps onto Grack's "squirming" post. Which was one of the stupidest things in this entire game tbh. No way does a mafia team of me/Stutters/Grack play like that. Even before the two of them were confirmed by flips.
- Disagrees with Stutters when Stutters says a silent lynch gives us more information; claiming a mderg lynch gives us more.
- Points out J Roc's vote on silent.
- Post-flip says he'll be around to discuss stuff later. Doesn't really discuss anything at all since then, insofar as he's "discussed" anything much.
- More than sixteen and a half hours later: "Wow, nice find" to the vote association stuff between Grack and silent that Moosy led me to.
- Asks Rels if he's out of energy.
- Says he won't be on much because of work.
- Next post is that he got into a car accident.
- Last post paraphrased "We're doing alright, I'll skim the thread and need to leave a vote"
Conclusion: He's done absolutely jack all and I don't like most of what he HAS done. About the only thing he's done all game is soft push mderg for the whole of day 1 until he got mislynched.
Seriously? What the hell is this crap?
And then BTDT just before goes "He's fairly actice, pushy, and I can see where most of his reads come from.". He's inactive as hell, he's throwing softball general questions that don't get followed up on. His only actual push was soft-pushing a mislynch D1. And hardly any of his reads actually have any backing.
How is that "active, pushy and can see where most of his reads come from"?
I'm seriously thinking of switching to scott now. That filter is TERRIBLE.
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Like...scott is getting away with absolute murder here. How has nobody else noticed until I filtered him now? And BTDT is defending him.
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I'm up for shenanies.
KSC for the inactivity. scott because of my filter dive just before. Or BTDT a bit because of the stuff I was pulling at the other page, a bit because others are scumming him and admittedly probably a bit of OMGUS.
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On August 05 2016 07:00 Rels wrote:
OK let's get rid of KSC
##Vote KSC
Alright.
#Vote: KelsierSC
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Counter claim on that? Anyone?
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Actually I'm not sure a CC is a good idea...
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Shenanie onto BTDT for now?
I could probably live with that. I'd prefer scott but...eh.
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On August 05 2016 07:07 Lunaticman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2016 07:05 Rels wrote:
OK that will get solved at some point.
##Unvote
##Vote BTDT Really your going to believe that?
It does kinda align with how he's been so "IDGAF" about the whole game.
More to the point do you want to risk lynching an un-ccd blue?
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We're probably better off on another train than Lunatic. I mean we've started shenanies, might as well go through with it.
Rels wants a BTDT lynch. I'm okay with that. Though I'd prefer a scott lynch. But eh.
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Well yeah, but his actual game is scummy as hell too like I outlined before.
The posts that he's actually made have jack all in them except for a soft push on mderg. Who flipped town.
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EPT
