Newbie Student Mafia XXII
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On July 26 2016 02:15 Half the Sky wrote:
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On July 25 2016 21:28 NocturneMage wrote:
and paying 150 euro for a bottle? sure it's probably excellent, but still a new low hts...motivating legions of scumlets to take over TL in a drunken haze
LOL? You're acting as if something was wrong with using spirits as motivation (assuming the player is of age, of course, if I know they are not, I won't) to endgame townies
As for the price, no that's why I didn't buy that. It is absurd. I stuck to Japanese my last trip. A whiskey lover can always dream. I think nothing at the moment tops Talisker Dark Storm in the scotch category...
I'd have bought it.
But then I'm crazy like that. I get an urge to hoard expensive drinks from time to time. >_>
I really ought to get around here more often. Keep getting distracted by things.
On July 29 2016 20:40 Rels wrote:
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On July 29 2016 11:04 -Celestial- wrote:
My god its only just hit me just how long its been since I played. And that's only because I noticed Rels in this game. I remember co-hosting in his first game last year, and I only played one game after that co-host. X-D
I really ought to get around here more often. Keep getting distracted by things.
Now that I've experienced what a commitment it is to host a game, I know that I owe you & the other hosts an enormous thank you for that game. It was so good hosting-wise, best flavor & hosting for sure. I have no idea where cakepie went but it's a shame he doesn't host anymore, one year later and my first game still contains the best flavor, votecounts & post game advices I've ever seen.
To be honest almost all of the credit for it should go to cakepie. cake had this google spreadsheet for it that was just incredible. IIRC all we needed to do was to plug in the most recent vote changes, night actions, etc and the entire thing auto-generated a vote count, appropriate PMs, etc etc. Literally everything. Including the vote change progression that everyone seemed to like so much.
I should see if I have access to that sheet still. Going to steal the coding for use in future games if/when I host in future.
So...the game. I'm going to post thoughts on everyone anyway, despite Race's chaos. I'm not as happy with this as I'd like to be but eh...
Lunaticman - Thing about lynching Grac because of a previous game is NAI as far as I'm concerned. Just salt. Don't particularly like the assumption of Race being town based on the spamming but honestly I don't think it even matters. It was just a massive disruption to the game all told. This line indicates to me that they're not on the mafia team together:
So even if he has good reads we will not be able to take anything productive from it.
Even though this is perfectly true it's not something I think you would say about a fellow mafia member so early on. You wouldn't want to undermine their credibility (even if Race was doing a more than good enough job doing that himself). This isn't to say that Lunatic or Race/scott isn't mafia, but a Lunatic/(Race/scott)/x team is unlikely in my eyes based on that post alone, which is a potentially useful bit of information going forward.
I actually really like Lunatic's reply to Skynx:
It feels like you are also sceptical of Grac, I don't know if I will be able to trust him. Also I think he is playing similar to last game so far. I don't know if that is good or bad. The big difference is that he is contributing "more" atm so that should indicate he is towny?
Lunatic is town leaning a little from this in my eyes (unless we want to go tinfoil hat and assume they're both mafia and are playing a VERY aggressive game together). If they're both mafia then he doesn't do this so early because you're starting to put yourself too close to a teammate too early on before anyone is being townread and before you see where the game is going. If Lunatic is mafia and Skynx isn't then I think you be a bit more buddy-buddy about the "hey we agree on this!" thing.
Questioning Grack about that kinda weird thing on Race is good. From there on seems to be asking genuinely useful probing questions. Trying to get a game going despite everything that's happened. All good stuff.
silentwarrior - The focus on Kelsier is really, really weird. Like...to me Kelsier was clearly just sick and fed up of what Race was doing. Hell if I'd not been out all day I'd probably have felt the same way if I'd been looking forward to getting the game going. It's totally NAI that he felt like that. But silent went ham on it. He's right that avoiding posting and waiting for others is kinda scummy, but there was practically nothing to go on and Race was just messing up the thread with garbage.
Maybe I sympathise with Kelsier a bit here because every game so far I've liked to hold back a bit at the beginning so I could get a decent read post off as my first major contribution. I like having a starting point for myself, see.
silent then calls out Race for the spam. But it was the easiest call-out in the world because of the overwhelming amount of garbage. ANYONE calls this out. As any alignment. Regardless of the alignment of Race. Even in the one circumstance that you don't really want to call someone out for it (i.e. being on the same Mafia team) you still call this out because if someone on a scum team with you is doing that kind of something you bus them hard because they're not helping at all.
I don't entirely dislike silent's reasoning on the Kelsier vote but it's still reaching incredibly far. Kelsier's actions weren't unreasonable given the circumstances, even if they were a bit scummy. I could easily see a town doing exactly the same things.
Shady. Do not like. Just going ham on Kelsier and looking at literally nobody else.
beentheredonethat - Claimed he was going to wreck people. Then said we should kill Race "before the replacement". That's an incredibly scummy thing to do as far as I'm concerned. Then made a joke with Moosy. That is literally the entire content of his filter, three posts since his confirm. Very dodgy.
MoosyDoosy - Said to ignore Race. It's a fair point to make. It gets a bit weirder later on though. He says he's not fond of D1 policy lynches which is a fair point too and a position I can agree with (though I'd still have totally policied Race for that utter nonsense, it was really getting on my nerves). Then claims he was pretty sure Race was town, then says it'll become more apparent with the next person. Then talks about how Race's spam was pointless.
You know...if I want to go REALLY tinfoil hat here I could almost say Moosy is protecting Race here by playing down the importance of that insanity. The fact that he's replying to a joke about him being scum by saying it's a good read would be one hell of a mind game tactic if you actually were scum.
All of Moosy's posts actually make a lot of sense to me and I can see where they're all coming from. But there's just something here that makes me very uncomfortable.
Which leaves me with scott. His http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/511961-newbie-student-mafia-xxii?page=14#268 ]first post[/url] is actually really, really cute. I can't draw any useful alignment information on it because it basically amounts to a town claim, which anyone would do. Though I think he might actually have a bit of a point.
Good point on BTDT. Totally disagree on silent. Agree with the thing about that particular J Roc post. Again really dislike his position on silent.
Can't do much with scott right now. Race's stuff is totally useless in this too. I'm really not sure I like the buddying with silent but that might just be because we seem to disagree on silent; someone buddying with someone you're scum leaning on is always going to feel bad. On the other hand his posts seem sincere.
Stutters695 - Said wouldn't be about much because of birthday. Isn't about much. Totally fair enough imo.
Fed up with Race, like a lot of people. NAI.
Really good point in reply to Moosy. I find him pointing out that Race is actually capable of being coherent, he just isn't, quite a towny thing to do. Because it comes from a mentality of wanting the game to actually go somewhere.
I also like the calling out of Grack claiming that Race was probably town. And challenging the reply. I'd like to see more tomorrow but all I've seen here so far is coming from a town mentality.
J Roc - The whole blue claim thing earlier came across as quite silly honestly. Responding rather flippantly to posts, though quite amusingly admittedly. Early stuff is a bunch of nothing, don't like.
But then calls out silent for that post of his that I found awful as well. Asks Race to comment on the Kelsier vote. And points out the really weird BTDT post. Like this bit. On balance probably more townie than not.
Mderg - Pretty funny first post I have to admit. Also calls out silent for his Kelsier stuff. Also called to kill off Race, frustration apparent. Piggy-backing off Skynx's post comment on silent but he previously called out silent and I can't disagree with Skynx's post so I don't think it's a case of buddying up. Kinda weird post calling out Lunatic for saying 'bus'; although he's perfectly right in the specifics I don't really get any maliciousness from Lunatic's post he's quoting. Frankly I think this is an overreaction to Lunatic's post given that Lunatic probably just misspoke.
Also told Kelsier he should get in the game. That's fine I guess.
Nothing particularly special to make mderg either way here honestly. I want to see more. He's not posted since the replacement.
KelsierSC - Done hardly anything so far. Kinda a fair point for a big chunk of it because of frustration over Race but since the sub still hasn't done a lot. Lunatic called him out a bit and the reply was literally just 'good for you'. Then he called the game terrible. Then say Skynx is okay but doesn't like anyone else.
On the one hand the lurking and seemingly not playing is kinda scummy. On the other hand I don't think mafia is so damn flippant about it. Null
Skynx - Did absolutely jack all until Race got banned honestly. But I like his thoughts on silent's post when Grack asked for them. And he was spot-on with the comment to BTDT too. Kinda like. Would not lynch today.
Grackaroni - Has a lengthier filter than most but there's honestly not a lot in it. The stuff pre-Race ban is a bunch of nothing. I don't like all this "Race is probably town" based off the utter garbage Race was serving up. Also I feel like the whole "Mafia plays subdued" thing is honestly pretty leading. I don't think this is necessarily a safe assumption at all, but he seems quite happy to push town down that way of thinking.
I like that he brings up silent's post but I don't like that he doesn't want to post his own thoughts before getting other people's. I also don't like that he disagrees with it but just dismisses it as 'reasoning a new town player would make' whilst simultaneously setting up to call anyone who calls silent scum, scum themselves. Then calling up people who were calling on silent, despite the fact that he's admitted that he disagrees with silent himself...he just doesn't find him particularly scummy for it.
This is a kind of weird mentality...you agree that you don't like the thoughts in silent's post...but they're scummy for feeling that it might make silent scummy?
I got split feelings on the three he calls most towny. So I guess I can't do much with this.
However I have huge issues with this bit:
Right now I'm kind of inclined to lynch Mderg just because I think the three people he has pushed so far (Silentwarrior, Lunatic, scott) have been the townier people in the thread, and he has pushed suspicion on two of them and tried to policy lynch the third.
No. Mderg wanted to policy lynch Race, because he was screwing up the thread. Mderg hasn't commented AT ALL on scott himself because he's not been in thread since then. This is pretty deceptive stuff from Grack imo. I don't like it when people try to slip things like that under the radar. Scum lean.
The defence on Lunatic is NAI because its exactly what I thought. Asking Kelsier to play is fine and complaining about him complaining is also fine but nothing special. Asks for a lynch target from Kelsier. NAI, anyone would want more info from Kelsier at this stage no matter their alignment or Kelsier's.
Rels - Literally done absolutely nothing since the game started. -_-
So right now my things look something like this:
Town lean - Stutters695, J Roc, Lunaticman, Skynx
Null - Moosy, scott, mderg, KelsierSC, Rels
Scum lean - silentwarrior, beentheredonethat (unless he gives a good reply about 'that one post'), Grack
Questions for people!
silent: more thoughts, if you please, on someone other than Kelsier. You're tunnelling hard here and the only comment you've made about anyone else is complaining about Race's spamming.
beentheredonethat: do something. Literally anything. Call someone scum. Call someone town. Ask a question of someone. Whatever. Also I'd like some thoughts about where you were coming from with that godawful call to lynch Race "before" a replacement.
mderg: thoughts now that scott has replaced Race then, given that the last thing you seemed to want to do was lynch Race?
KelsierSC: as for BTDT. Please do something, anything. What do you like about Skynx, for example? Though I sort of assume it's probably the same things I like so I guess that won't really get us anywhere...
Rels: same as BTDT. But bigger: DO SOMETHING, LITERALLY ANYTHING.
scott: Bit more specific question that I'm curious about. You posted this:
On August 01 2016 07:30 scott31337 wrote:
KelsierSC Mderg Stutters and BTDT
When you were saying about RB being town and looking into who voted for him. I know this is only the people who actively voted for him but I expressed in thread that I'd probably be up with plynching him given the nonsense going on. Any particular reason I'm being left off your potential scum list? Or is it just my relative lack of filter and the fact I didn't actually get around to voting due to being out most of the day which made you miss it?
On August 01 2016 12:11 Lunaticman wrote:
First I just want to say what an incredible post, I love it!
Also no mafia would ever write a post that is so coherent so you are the best town lean in the game for me atm.
Tbh I didnt even realize rels was in the game, my god bring out another salt shacker for me lol.
Yeah also I think I misunderstood the term bussing, I think I was thinking of like a train? When someone stacks votes on a player. I dont know the proper terminology for it.
Be back in a couple of hours from work.
Thank you, but be careful. Make sure you're reading through what I've said and check that my train of thought makes sense to you before you townread me for it. I won't say its 'easy' (because that damn thing took between one to two hours to write) but its a very 'simple' thing for a scum to simply write a huge post and then hide behind it.
Trust nobody until you've decided they're town from what they've actually said, not just from posting a lot of stuff that reads nicely. I'll be asking myself some very searching questions later on, believe me. (Kudos to whoever gets that reference.)
Here's a useful summary of bussing:
I think you might be thinking of bandwagonning?
On August 01 2016 12:22 scott31337 wrote:
I only added the people who actually voted for me - There was a vote in the main thread for Race that was not in the voting thread I didn't count either. I was looking more at who pulled the trigger to do so. And BTDT looks the worst out of those four.
Fair enough, I thought it might be something like that.
On August 01 2016 12:57 Grackaroni wrote:
I think that mafia tends to play more subdued is a pretty standard idea that most players would accept. I'm not saying Race Bannon could never be mafia but lynching the guy who goes out of his way to spam the thread and pisses everybody off in the process is definitely not a good place to start if you want to hit mafia.
Perhaps. But Race seemed to be in a place where he'd do that as either alignment, especially given the banning. And I don't think its necessarily a safe bet to always assume mafia is going to be more passive.
Silent made the first serious accusatory post of the game and put himself in the spotlight. I liked the post just because I think that Kelsier's non-contribution would look scummy to a newcomer, but the start of the game is the easiest time to "contribute". All I've gathered so far is that Kelsier seems annoyed from the state of the game and can't be assed to start playing. I don't really read Kelsier either way. Also I can disagree with a post's conclusions and still townread somebody for their post. Case in point, I don't really agree with your reads or any of the reasoning attached to them, but I'm still very thankful for something to comment on and will give a town read for it. It's magic!
Hah, sorry, I think you're misunderstanding where I'm going a little bit. That's on me, I didn't explain very well.
My point was that there's a difference between saying that you disagree with someone's points and yet townread them for it and implying people are scummy for not doing so. On reflection I think I might have read more into this particular quote than you had intended, I got the impression you were throwing shade on people for it, so apologies about that:
Since earlier in the thread J roc and Mderg posted suspicions on Silentwarrior based on that post and the day has been so slow, I wanted to see if a wagon would form. Not much came from it. Skynx said Silentwarrior was suspicious and Mderg reaffirmed his suspicion.
As for my choice not to post my thoughts before getting other people's. Are you saying that I'm afraid of putting forth my own thoughts before seeing other people's or something else? I don't think that will be too much of an issue. Actually I think the reason I've come up here in the first place is that I've actually put out some of the more distinctive things.
It was just more the fact that you asked for opinions before putting your own opinion, which meant nobody could comment on your opinion whilst doing so. *shrug*
My point here for Mderg is that he's pushed three slots that I feel are town slots. What kind of deception do you think I'm trying to slip under the radar here? Anyone can read his filter in 30 seconds and see whether he has posted about Race bannon or Scott.
The fact that you were highlighting him pushing on scott, yet he hasn't even addressed scott himself. He just wanted rid of Race because of the spamming. I don't think its a very fair claim to make given the circumstances and came across a little as trying to make him look worse with a reasoning that doesn't hold up particularly well.
On August 01 2016 17:25 mderg wrote:
Too lazy to continue like that, so here are some general thoughts:
I don't like how you're giving town points to everyone who's calling out BTDT. I agree that BTDT wanting to lynch Race before the replacement was scummy. But anyone would agree on that, it's such an easy and obvious point to make that I don't think it warrants town points at all.
You're probably right. The issue right now is that there's not a lot of 'events' to draw conclusions from so I'm just working with what's there. :-\
Legitimately dunno who to lynch right now honestly which is really bad with so little time remaining. I'm finding it interesting that people are hating on scott's posts so much right now. I'm not liking his position on silent but apart from that I'm not seeing anything obviously problematic. Can anyone go over their reasonings on that?
On August 02 2016 00:09 Grackaroni wrote:
See I just don't get it. I think the most obvious assumption here is that Scott actually believed that Race Bannon was town for those reasons prior to joining and then wrote that post regardless of what alignment RB is.
Though I don't entirely agree that scott necessarily believed that...its still a very cute way to enter and I absolutely agree its something you write regardless of RB's alignment given that you just replaced him. You make it sound like a revelation and it sounds a lot better than going "okay I'm town".
On August 02 2016 00:24 Grackaroni wrote:
Now the formatting is really going to get out of control! If you really think that it's non-alignment indicative, why do you like Stutters for scum reading him and dislike me for town reading him?
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On August 01 2016 00:25 Stutters695 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On July 31 2016 22:48 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Hey guys, totally reasonable Moosy chipping in here. My totally logical thoughts say that Race Bannon is spamming for the sake of spamming. As a man who employs this technique myself I say it's safe to ignore every post he makes and address him on a later date since he's basically guaranteed to act like a sack of potatoes all of D1.
Slight issue is that's totally unreasonable. He was completely capable of producing readable content as both alignments in previous games. This is probably an attempt to shift his meta, although it's almost inconsequential because it is incredibly anti-town.
You townread stutters for this post and subsequent questioning of me? Isn't he making an argument that Race Bannon had changed his meta because he rolled scum?
I wasn't actually townreading him for scumreading Race. I was townreading him because it feels like a very town mentality to be effectively going "come on, he can do better than this, being stupid like this is harmful to the game" rather than just dismissing him as being an idiot. I didn't read into it that he was saying that RB had changed his meta because he rolled scum, just that he was changing is meta general to be less readable. In fact he specifically says in your quote that RB has been coherent as both alignments before.
That's how I read that post anyway.
That's kind of where I'm at though. I can't discern much out of the filters since they're all very short and talk about things that I don't find very telling. My first feeling was that Silent's post seemed townie and that scum would probably want to push him. It doesn't make for a convincing case, but those are my feels lol.
Ah. I didn't expect to get much from saying that I thought the post was fine, so I wanted to do my way to see if I could get more information, which I really didn't.
This part of the post actually seems quite contrived to me. I wrote Scott instead of Race Bannon just because he was the person that filled that slot. What could I possibly have to gain from this sleight of hand?
My problem with silent isn't so much that he opened that way (though its still pretty awful) but that he still feels that way. Yeah, I understand the point he's making about Kelsier being lazy there and not contributing; but its fairly easy to see a town being wound up as much as anyone at the RB stuff.
Fair enough on the second point.
As for the third here...what you'd have to gain is to strengthen your case a little on mderg. I'm just tugging at things that don't fit here really. It just felt a rather unfair accusation to say they were trying to lynch a replacement when their vote was on the replacee in an apparent effort to lynch a spammer; particularly when they hadn't come back to comment on said replacement. Its a habit of mine to try and pick at things that seem a little deceptive.
On August 02 2016 03:11 beentheredonethat wrote:
Are my previous posts asking those questions? If there are specific questions open, let me know.
Yes, that stuff helps quite a bit thanks. I'll have a think if I got any specific questions based on what you said, I was just wanting something, ANYTHING, about your thought processes at that point because I could do is sit there and go "yeah this post is bad" without having anything more to go on.
On August 02 2016 03:18 Skynx wrote:
Rels should be the lynch I'm afraid. No one really sticks out to me.
This is a total waste of a lynch vote...just saying...
On August 02 2016 03:39 Skynx wrote:
This Grack vs btdt/stutters is very unlikely tvtt, please keep going.
Quite possibly. This whole argument is very messy but doesn't feel townie, there's something distinctly shady in there.
On everything else: I can kinda see where people are going with scott now. Yeah, I guess I can see where you're going but I also don't like that wagon much. It feels really bad right now. Especially since there's been no real attempt to get people off it. It feels like nobody cares that scott is going to get lynched, which is bad because if he was mafia I'd expect a much stronger effort to get those votes off and push someone else given how weak said wagon is.
One positive thing I can say about scott has already sort of been addressed by BTDT just before actually, more specifically: if scott is mafia it'd have been super easy for scott to go "okay guys, I'm in now, give me some time to catch up and think things out" and then just drop into lurking for most of the rest of D1 whilst his mafia buddies worked at getting the votes onto someone else before he returned to the thread. Posting as soon as he got in is a risky play if he actually is scum. Very much AGAINST lynching scott today. Though this doesn't put him in the clear, I'm still bouncing back and forth on the posts he's made; I'm just against it because it doesn't feel like this is the way the game would play out if scott was scum.
Also I doubt I'm lynching Stutters today. Just putting that down there.
Also at present:
- silent has done sod all since confirming his feelings on Kelsier
- Rels is going to get himself replaced or modkilled because of total inactivity
Can we expect a replacement or a modkill for Rels if he doesn't turn up at all for the entire day?
I don't like silent's posts in the thread so far and he's nowhere to be seen. I don't want to get in trouble for not voting at all so for now (and in case I don't get time to come back on later) I'm parking my vote there. If nothing else it dials up the pressure on him to actually post something more.
The second point is actually pretty good. Didn't notice that he's pretty much the only other person he's been concerned about. How do you just 'forget' someone you've got suspicions about?
I'm back and forth over what I think of scott anyway which means point three can go either way. Eh.
Observations on tone in point 4 are pretty good. I like. Enough to rule Rels entirely out of a D1 lynch for me at least.
Still thinking on silent's recent post.
On August 02 2016 06:24 -Celestial- wrote:
Observations on tone in point 4 are pretty good. I like.
EBWOP: Not that I necessarily AGREE on all them. Still thinking about some. But it makes me think Rels' heart is in the right place.