EPTNewbie Student Mafia XVIII - Page 52
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On December 30 2015 23:27 Fidei86 wrote: I have re-read the game from the start (yay no work!) and here is where my head is at at the moment. The reads are generally ordered from towniest to scummiest. Town Irishbound - I liked that from the outset he considered a wide range of players (see #408). Although I am null-y on Scott, it is hard to fault Irish's reasoning. Moreover, the fact that he has been on Scott for his posts, rather than some of the other low activity players (eg Onegu, Gigya) suggests that he's scum-hunting rather than looking for an easy out. Finally, I thought that his read on me was honest and the fact that he asked Alex for guidance (at #416) felt like a genuine cry for help. Shapelog - I really, really don't like Shape's approach to posting. Spam posting like he does is a pretty effective mafia tactic to confuse the thread and dissuade people from reading their filter. HOWEVER, I note that he had more than a page of filter in pre-game. Moreover, his posting has struck me more as someone who wants to play the game and is impatient with everyone else (see eg #232). That, to me, is something that a relatively new player would find difficult to replicate as mafia. I also liked him criticising GB for giving him a town read at #302 - as mafia it's much easier just to take the read and pocket it rather than challenge it. Finally, his list post at #448 covered all the bases for a town list post for me. The Cow - I am a sucker for people who post infrequently but give detailed reads and thoughts. His read on me seemed very genuine and is actually something I agree with, in that I struggle to condense my thoughts down as far as I would like, and I tend to focus on ephemera (tone, overall posting strategy) rather than digging down into the weeds of detail. I like that he comes in with strong reads on Scott and Kmatt, then follows them up with helpful questions. I think most people (myself included) have been giving Irish a free-pass so far, so it's very useful to have someone sense-checking that as well. Null Mderg - I like his pressuring on Noon/Kush as well regarding D1. Someone said in the thread earlier that they lynch scum 60% of games D1. I don't think it's that high for me, but mderg is right that a successful d1 lynch for town reaaaaally fucks scum. He has a couple of short posts that give interesting insight (eg #376), but generally he seems pretty focussed on pushing his kush / GB association without looking wider than that. Alex/NM - Alex pointed out in an earlier post that my read on Scott was based on playing with him only as town. Fair enough. My reads on Alex are coloured by the same thing - we've been town together twice. He is doing his usual prodding / poking and asking lots of questions. One concern I have is that I see the progression for his Scott read, and his GB read seems to be foreshadowed at #391, but I'm not sure he really has given any particular read on Kush/Noon to date? I agree with the read, but I'm not sure how he got there. GB - I have played with GB a fair few times before, but he plays differently every time and I usually rely on others to give a good read on him. Here, he has really given out town reads with very little supporting evidence (he 'liked' Alex's opening at (#195), when that was a JOKE OPENING!), and then placed a vote on Kmatt without explanation (#333). As an experienced player, this sort of high-read / low-analysis approach would be easily explained as either lazy/distracted town or mafia. Someone said that GB is in another game at the moment, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. There are definitely better lynches today. Kmatt - The big red flag for me here is what others have already pointed out - he seems very reluctant to give reads. That is understandable for a new player in his first game (#383). He does make an interesting point on GB that I kinda agree with (#197 - GB trying to buddy up to the thread). I think there are a lot of better lynches than Kmatt, but he's definitely someone to look back at if he doesn't start firming things up through D2. Scott - This is ugh. I think I'm actually better qualified than most people to read Scott, given that we've played three games together and I have given him a lot of attention in each. Yes, he and I have been town in each. HOWEVER, as I said before he has a number of different playstyles that seem to accord to how busy he is. And this is probably a mean thing to say, but I don't think he switches it up to keep his meta clean and I'm not sure he could. All that said, his content is totally garbage. He has had garbage content before as town. His read on Noon ("why would he TR me going against thread sentiment") is utterly idiotic, mostly because at that point there wasn't much thread sentiment against Scott AND because Noon's read was obviously weak. I don't want to jump straight onto Scott today because I think there are better lynches, and because (unlike others) he is very capable of coming back into the thread and being useful. Scum Gigya - He has a filter almost totally devoid of reads. His one TR is Irish (#214) but at the same time in his post at #192 he actually says that as Irish is experienced, the post could have been faked. ???. He also suspects GB for his "matter of fact town read", even though he agrees with it? The only thing keeping this from moving into policy is that he has a couple of posts where he talks about non-game stuff (#225, #228). If you have time to do that, you have time to play as well. This is how newbie mafia play, imo. Noon/Kush - This whole filter makes me want to facepalm. He TRs Scott for saying he could "possibly jump" on someone else's read. WTF? I just don't understand this read at all - mafia are the ones who are going to hedge and give weak reads, not town. He then goes into a day-long "woe is me, D1 is so hard" stupor, which is (a) totally destructive to town, and (b) effective at hiding his thoughts on the game. Having said that, he then seems to basically mindlessly sheep GB onto his read onto Kmatt. I also don't follow his point about NM and KMatt whiteknighting, since a bunch of other people also came into the thread to say that timestamp analysis wasn't helpful. He then also prods a bunch of people into giving reads, despite the fact that he himself has given almost no content. Policy Onegu - Please all think of a world where we get to LYLO or LYLO-1 and Onegu still hasn't said anything, still hasn't been modkilled and still hasn't been lynched. He does this EVERY GAME HE PLAYS. And it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for town to win if it gets that far, because he is a total coin-flip and the easiest ML in the world. His content is totally absent. I'm going to vote Gigya for now, but I'd consolidate onto Onegu or Kush if necessary later. ##Vote -- Gigya re: why I'm scumreading fidei Everything he posts reads like he's trying to justify his thoughts rather than actually develop reads. Irish- "although I'm null-y on scott it's hard to fault his reasoning" Justifying a townread on someone scumreading a nullread? Seems paranoid thecow- " I am a sucker for people who post infrequently but give detailed reads and thoughts." The first thing he writes about thecow as though he knows it's a weak read but then goes on to give multiple points about why he's town. Makes me think Fidei was thinking these reads up on the spot rather than having them prior to writing this post. NM- "Alex pointed out in an earlier post that my read on Scott was based on playing with him only as town" the first thing on his mind is 'what does this guy think of me?' and it shows with that opening line this is getting lame and I think I'm starting to look for evidence that fits my conclusion rather than using the evidence t ocome to my conclusion but it really feels like fidei is trying really hard to show where his reads are coming from, moreso than he's trying to show his reads, if that makes sense. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
hm I guess I have more reading to do when I get to work today | ||
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
On January 05 2016 01:12 nooniansoong wrote: Could be scum: 1) Kmatt 2) Shapelog replaced by FecalFeast 3) TheCow replaced by The Shining 5) GiygaS 7) Fidei86 8) mderg Scumteam?: FF Fidei mderg ~~~ Gigyas did something that seemed town to me. I'd have to find it again though. ~~~ I realise Shining didn't make the cut here for final scum team and atm I don't remember what your read on Cow was early game, but why "could" Shining be scum? What was your thinking? Shining's approach to end of cycle looked town to me because when I re-read end of cycle, he brought a new perspective (vote analysis) to how he tried to crack the two wagons. This is similar to how he used vote analysis/behaviour to solve the game altogether in Dark Tournament. Was he wrong? Yes. Was he maliciously wrong? Doubt it. 892, 896, 898 look quite towny to me. He's trying to match his votes to sentiment through his filter on GB and does the same thing trying to ferret Noon's alignment (post 922). The ONLY possible concern with Shining is post 965, but that's such subjective meta I feel it pales in comparison to how Shining's come out so far in trying to solve this game. If Fecalfeast feels Shining could be mafia based on that (don't recall him saying anything) then let's hear it but otherwise I don't think it's concerning. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
(1) you have a new player not familiar with scott or TL for that matter scumreading scott under his own set of criteria and then (2) you have Fidei who knows Scott and uses his own knowledge of Scott (see null list) to read him. Furthermore Fidei uses other criteria to townread Irish. The question should be, what read/approach should make sense for Irish given his background and knowledge of the players and I can't see how Fidei's prior knowledge of Scott causing the difference in reads is a problem. Basically I'm trying to understand what wording in that range of reads is reading as "paranoid" or even trying to appease someone. The Cow interpretation - I am assuming the "weak read" comes from the ordering of the reads, so I had to read the Shapelog post again, to see if that justified a "stronger' townread from his worldview. Having gotten coached as town before I've been told that list posts don't go over well with people so I'm not sure if Fidei has an inherent bias towards that, but I could argue at least between the Shapelog and the Cow posts, the Cow should have been ranked above Shapelog, since it appears that Shapelog read is based on tone, but this is also an area of extreme subjectivity for me, I know some people on this site really rely on tone reads and especially for day 1. You might need to break it down to me line by line. this is getting lame and I think I'm starting to look for evidence that fits my conclusion rather than using the evidence t ocome to my conclusion but it really feels like fidei is trying really hard to show where his reads are coming from, moreso than he's trying to show his reads, if that makes sense. Fidei could be mafia, don't get me wrong, but it wouldn't be for this. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
I was reading his post with the mindset that he is already scum That said, I agree that fidei's reasons for townreading people are legit and you could call my read a toneread. To me it felt like, while fidei had real reasons to townread people, he spent more effort justifying why he had the read than I would have liked. | ||
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nooniansoong
1538 Posts
nm, i understand mderg's problem with my suspicion against him. he can't defend himself. I took a look at one of his scumgames and after he defended himself from a case everyone thought he was townie. I'm not giving him a chance to defend himself. The only way he can prove he is town to me is if he acts townie. | ||
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nooniansoong
1538 Posts
just attempt to find scum. | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On January 05 2016 03:20 NocturneMage wrote: I had to read this exchange a few times to understand but now I finally understand why mderg has I think a valid concern here. Noon, you agreed that mderg's reasoning to scum GB at least made sense - from context "wow what a bad reason to scumread/vote someone". But mderg is saying that your reasoning to say that it's obvious that mafia can think of this (Now I finally understand why Noon, you are not giving him townpoints for this. I disagree, but I digress.) - he doesn't dispute this (third quote). But what may be a problem here is that from his eyes, you are characterising his play as exclusively scummy, or taking what can be seen as town play and seeing it from a mafia standpoint. To frame it as such and exclusively, that, can be mafia indicative. mderg - (1) is my understanding of the problem correct? (2) when I went to Noon's original concern on you he said you were playing passively, a little too passively for town. I am not familiar with you. How would you describe your towngame? (3) how often have you played with Noon? Is it enough where he should be familiar enough with your towngame? (1) You've pretty much got it. He at some point decided that I'm scummy (with like 1 throwaway line to say how he came to that conclusion). And now he just takes things I post where there chance of scum making that post is not 0 to further confirm my scumminess. So far he hasn't tried to convince anybody that I'm scum, he simply found something for him to be able to keep that read alive. If he truly had a good reason to assume I'm scum, he would try convincing people of that but he isn't actually doing that. (2) It's difficult to describe my towngame since my last game was about a year ago. Generally I've tried to point out things I've noticed without committing too much early on. Once I've found a scumread I'm confident on I'm usually pushing that pretty strongly. There may be other people who can give you a better explanation. Keep in mind, though, that I'm not a player in the same league as the absolute tl players. (3) I've played with him like 5 times, maybe a bit more. He could be familiar with my towngame but he might also have forgotten a few things about my playstyle. | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On January 05 2016 04:32 nooniansoong wrote: FF my reads are in flux right now. I dont really find Fidei scummy. Not sure who my scumteam is right now. nm, i understand mderg's problem with my suspicion against him. he can't defend himself. I took a look at one of his scumgames and after he defended himself from a case everyone thought he was townie. I'm not giving him a chance to defend himself. The only way he can prove he is town to me is if he acts townie. If you had actually looked at my scumgames carefully, you'd have seen lots of differences to my play now. Granted, that's quite a bit in the past (probably around 1.5 years). I've also looked to defend myself from accusations many times as town. So that's another one of those "he could theoretically do that as scum" reasons. On January 05 2016 04:34 nooniansoong wrote: and mderg dont go into depth about how my metaing of you or whatever the above is is wrong. I dont care. just attempt to find scum. I don't mind that too much but since this a game where the majority decides, maybe other people actually do care about how this compares to my scumgame or my towngame. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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nooniansoong
1538 Posts
On January 05 2016 05:23 mderg wrote: If you had actually looked at my scumgames carefully, you'd have seen lots of differences to my play now. Like what? I'm a sucker for self-meta. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
On December 30 2015 10:13 mderg wrote: Time for some sleep. I'm not sure what to think about Kmatt, gonna think about that until I'm back here. You generated an entire page of what I would consider useless posts before this post. You never come back to kmatt and even go on to chastise GB for not talking about kmatt. This post also feels really out of place from mderg's obvious conversational style almost like someone in scum QT said he was shitting the thread. On December 31 2015 05:33 mderg wrote: I'd say scott flipping town would make GB look worse. Strongly defending a townie based on nothing just screams too much information. Setting up what if scott flips town even though before this you made your first real post about someone about scott being mafia. On December 30 2015 23:01 mderg wrote: Went through scotts filter and realized that there was even less content than I thought. Only 2 posts really. + Show Spoiler + On December 29 2015 10:47 scott31337 wrote: GB throwing out townreads like it's drunken Monday - hmmm... Okay, I'm extremely doubtful a newb mafia makes the post above with the information available. Maybe GB was right  You get a townlean for this Irish. I could possibly jump on this - but it's a big bag of joke/null for now... This Kmatt guy kind of does what I do - quote into notepad, post thoughts - I like this so far as well. I'll work on page 11 after the American Football game (or maybe halftime) In the first one he mentions GB's strange townread on Irish which isn't bad in itself. But the fact that I had done just that before and that he doesn't provide any follow up at all makes him look bad in my eyes. Then he townreads Irish and Kmatt with only vague reasoning, nothing worth mentioning. Also the strange "I could possibly jump on this". I have no idea where to put this. + Show Spoiler + On December 30 2015 14:21 scott31337 wrote: So I have CPR and first aid training tomorrow morning so I have to get up early - I should be back on before EoD. The thing that gets me is - why would noon have a town read on me and go against thread sentiment if he was mafia? What's the motivation - so he moves up for me. Giygas's filter looks the worse - there's some SC stuff and nothing else - so I'm going to vote for him for now. In the second post he provides a weak defense of noon. I don't like it regardless of noon's alignment. Then he votes Giygas. I don't think this one is particularly scummy, it's just a vote based on the lack of actual content from Giygas. His own lack of content is not something that should be taken into account for this vote. I'd say he's pretty scummy and I'm gonna vote him for now because I'm not sure I can be back before the deadline and he looks like a good place to safely park my vote. ##vote scott To me it seems weird to be talking about what if scott flips town after this. Most of your posts this game have been replies to people talking about their reads. I'm not going to paste a bunch of random one liners here but I'm getting more about what you think of other people's reads than what you think of people. GB is scum but who else? Can you give me a list of people you think are scum please | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On January 05 2016 05:39 nooniansoong wrote: Like what? I'm a sucker for self-meta. I thought you didn't care about that? I've been scum in 3 games so far on tl. One of those doesn't count because it was pick your power and town had a good plan from the start. So I just tried to bus immediately and hoped for a miracle. The 2 relevant games: In my first scumgame (Detention Mafia) I've put myself in the spotlight by spending most of D1 defending a townie who was getting mislynched. Only at the end of D1 did I make a small case on someone. That's the part I assume you're referring to because I've had to defend myself quite a bit at that point. Somehow I made people believe me to be town. After that I pursued my case until I had to bus my scummate and the 3rd scum got modkilled. I don't remember very much after that but I was mainly trying to skate by without going against thread sentiment too much. The other scumgame (Normal Mini Mafia LVI) I was afk quite a bit and made mostly long posts. Generally my play was awful that game because I didn't have much time to play. My biggest "case" there was about someone who found a supposed scumslip. I obviously knew the scumslip wasn't real, though. There's a small similarity to my play here in me saying there are almost no scumslips in forum mafia. You can go over that game yourself, though. The filter isn't even 2 pages long. I don't think my play here is particularly close to any of those 2 games. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On January 05 2016 06:22 Fecalfeast wrote: You generated an entire page of what I would consider useless posts before this post. You never come back to kmatt and even go on to chastise GB for not talking about kmatt. This post also feels really out of place from mderg's obvious conversational style almost like someone in scum QT said he was shitting the thread. Setting up what if scott flips town even though before this you made your first real post about someone about scott being mafia. To me it seems weird to be talking about what if scott flips town after this. Most of your posts this game have been replies to people talking about their reads. I'm not going to paste a bunch of random one liners here but I'm getting more about what you think of other people's reads than what you think of people. GB is scum but who else? Can you give me a list of people you think are scum please That's much more pleasant to work with. 1) Not much to say about that. It's correct that I've never come back to kmatt. I'm still not 100% sure about him but I'd put him more towards town. 2) You may think it was weird I think it was reasonable. I was simply giving my opinion on an association that I disagreed with. 3) Yes, lots of my posts are about other people's reads. I think you should be able to see from my wording that I think kush is scum. So I think both kush and GB are scum. The other candidates are you, shining and giygas. There's not a particular favorite in that list. | ||
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
On January 05 2016 06:37 Fecalfeast wrote: wait do you have cases this game? If you're talking about a huge ass post to say why I scumread someone, then no. If you're talking about giving several reasons for scumreading someone, then yes. | ||
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Fecalfeast
Canada11355 Posts
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