EPTStudent Mafia XV - Page 46
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
You're saying that meta against marv makes sense over time. This is just D1. So how is it that the meta on marv earlier was so perfect and made him a "better lynch?" You're also saying that meta is unreliable. Then why did you think that the meta on marv was so perfect and made him a "better lynch?" Also, if we take what you say and think that meta is so bad and unreliable, what does that make your case on FecalFeast when you thought that marv was a better lynch based on meta? That means you should have had a lot less confidence in your case on FecalFeast. Nothing you're saying right now is adding up together. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:42 MoosyDoosy wrote: If you think meta is bad why did you describe it as "a better lynch" and said it was such a perfect point? Meta is not bad. Meta can be good. Stop misrepresentin my fucking words. I said it can be unreliable. AS IN, NOT A SUREFIRE THING. And jesus fucking christ, read my filter. I said it's a better lynch because IT WAS. How simple is that? It tied in PERFECTLY into his scum meta. But with almost a full 24 hours left in the phase, I wasn't going to jump from one lynch to another when that meta read could change if he starts playing. Thanks for making me reiterate myself some more. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
? You literally just said that a meta read is shit. Why are you trying to say you said unreliable now? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
What I THINK Shining is trying to get at is this: - The case on marv is a stronger case. However the case is, at least in part by many, a meta read and meta is a poor way to judge. - The case on FF is a weaker case. But its based more specifically on reads from the game, so the actual evidence itself is a better way to judge. Its the difference between getting a strong answer from a weak method vs a weaker answer from a strong method. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:46 MoosyDoosy wrote: No, you're just not making sense. You're saying that meta against marv makes sense over time. This is just D1. So how is it that the meta on marv earlier was so perfect and made him a "better lynch?" You're also saying that meta is unreliable. Then why did you think that the meta on marv was so perfect and made him a "better lynch?" Also, if we take what you say and think that meta is so bad and unreliable, what does that make your case on FecalFeast when you thought that marv was a better lynch based on meta? That means you should have had a lot less confidence in your case on FecalFeast. Nothing you're saying right now is adding up together. I make sense to me and I'm all that I care about this game because I have no scumteam and apparently no town friends either ^_^ we can argue this all the way up until EoD, I truly don't care anymore. Meta being unreliable doesn't mean it wasn't fucking perfectly accurate that up to that point, he was 100% playing up to his scum meta. Why are you nitpicking a vote that was made with an entire full day left in the day phase? This is fucking stupid because if I HADN'T said anything about Marv, and then he never came back or did absolutely nothing when he did come back, and I switched to him with no reasoning or mention in my thread, I'd still be scum to you so does it really fucking matter? You're tunneling on me and that's fine but how about you find something else to do to deal with the fact that after I flip, you're gonna be royally fucked and have no leads? And now you're painting a narrative just to make your case look better. My reads have NOTHING TO DO WITH EACHOTHER. So Marv being a "better lynch" and me following my gut on Fecal(because last time I did, I caught him as scum) make perfect sense to me. AND WHY THE HELL ARE YOU TELLING ME HOW MUCH CONFIDENCE TO HAVE IN MY OWN READS AND MY OWN GUTS? WHERE THE HELL ARE YOURS OUTSIDE OF YOUR TUNNEL ON ME?! And this is why I think you're scum. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:47 MoosyDoosy wrote: ? You literally just said that a meta read is shit. Why are you trying to say you said unreliable now? Shit and unreliable both mean meta is bad. It's bad because it's unreliable. It's unreliable because it can be bad. Your picking at semantics and terminology is so horrible. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:51 -Celestial- wrote: I think you're arguing terminology here to be honest. What I THINK Shining is trying to get at is this: - The case on marv is a stronger case. However the case is, at least in part by many, a meta read and meta is a poor way to judge. - The case on FF is a weaker case. But its based more specifically on reads from the game, so the actual evidence itself is a better way to judge. Its the difference between getting a strong answer from a weak method vs a weaker answer from a strong method. How is it possible that Marv and Celestial get this but Moosy and ES don't? I guess different skill tiers are showing themselves here. Reading comprehension OP | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:53 The Shining wrote: Shit and unreliable both mean meta is bad. It's bad because it's unreliable. It's unreliable because it can be bad. Your picking at semantics and terminology is so horrible. There is a clear difference between calling something shit/bad and unreliable. One is just terrible and the other sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I'll leave you to figure out which applies to which. Also, saying you only said unreliable when you did say bad is a lie in and of itself. So don't try to make them similar when they aren't. On October 13 2015 02:51 -Celestial- wrote: I think you're arguing terminology here to be honest. What I THINK Shining is trying to get at is this: - The case on marv is a stronger case. However the case is, at least in part by many, a meta read and meta is a poor way to judge. - The case on FF is a weaker case. But its based more specifically on reads from the game, so the actual evidence itself is a better way to judge. Its the difference between getting a strong answer from a weak method vs a weaker answer from a strong method. -Celestial-, do me a favor and look at P3 of Shining's filter? Tell me what you think of the contradictions and waffliness in them. | ||
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Onegu
United States9695 Posts
Sleep very very soon | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
I personally think meta is shit, but I've also seen where it can be useful and accurate, so I try to keep an open mind depending on the situation. Like with players like Marv who have very clear cut metas. | ||
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KelsierSC
United Kingdom10443 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Sicklucker totally okay with lynching Kelsier for no particular reasons. That's very alarming. He's voting for Vivax though, so hrm. Moosy seems to be hanging on to a very strict interpretation of things to continue to dog on Shining. I'm curious about his attempting to convince Celestial very recently, when Celestial has already thrown his hat in favor of Shining and seems to see what the rest of us who think Shining is likely town see. I'm happiest with the Moosy wagon to be honest. Marv should live today. Move your votes. Kelsier's reads are allegedly forthcoming. Nobody else seems to feel strongly about Kelsier being a lynch candidate, time to consolidate. ##unvote KelsierSC ##vote MoosyDoosy | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
Now tell me, which of these do you think I fit into, Moosy? Like if you think I play scum this carelessly and angrily after JUST having played with me when I rolled scum, you're either mentally challenged or scum. I'm gonna give you benefit of the doubt, tho, and just call you scum. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
On October 13 2015 03:08 MoosyDoosy wrote: Hm, honestly pretty estranged tbh. I really think it should be obvious to see Shining's contradictions and waffliness and let them speak for him but for some reason none of you are doing it. That means either you're tunneled horribly or, like ES, you think EVERYONE is on a scumteam with me =D | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
On October 13 2015 03:10 The Shining wrote: That means either you're tunneled horribly or, like ES, you think EVERYONE is on a scumteam with me =D No, I think you're scum and I'm voting you for completely different reasons than Eversince. I don't even know what she's doing. And the reason I asked -Celestial- was to see what he made of your P3 because it is full of contradictions and waffliness. If you flip town, I guess I'll just have to accept that your meta for D1 is to be contradictory and waffly. I'm also pretty hurt that you called me mentally retarded because I am town and you acting super scummy D1 was bad on your part. I just thought I'd let you know. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 13 2015 02:56 MoosyDoosy wrote: -Celestial-, do me a favor and look at P3 of Shining's filter? Tell me what you think of the contradictions and waffliness in them. Stream of consciousness: - Part of the initial argument with ES. Honestly to me that whole thing just feels town on town. Uninformative. - Comments about anger and rage in mafia TL. Then funny comment to me. Nothing much there. - "Starting to warm up to the marv lynch". Says FF is giving counterarguments to what he claimed. Marv better lynch than FF. - Comment on people not playing. NAI. It was winding me up too. - Replies to you well about FF's counterarguments. Don't have a problem with this bit. The next bit is admittedly a bit weird: he says marv is a good lynch but is staying on FF because FF is on marv which to him means that he's wrong about one of them. This is faulty logic to me. marv is nowhere in sight at this point. It makes perfect sense for FF to bus him if they're scumbuddies. It doesn't have to be either/or, they definitely could still both be scum. That being said it doesn't feel especially scummy to me. Maybe a little, but more like just a questionable leap in logic. - Calls you town. Fairly easy call to make at that point I think. - Stuff about pocketing. Tangentially related to the game but eh. - Conversation with FF about his reads. He's convinced one of FF and marv is scum and effectively states that even without a marv flip he has enough on FF to make him believe he's scum. Which is fine as a position to take as far as I'm concerned but I'm not really convinced by the argument against FF honestly. Nor am I convinced that only one of FF and marv HAS to be scum. - Gets somewhat unnecessarily aggressive in a follow up about the pocketing. Seems a bit weird; although his point is sound. Nobody is going to admit to pocketing. - Reiterates that he thinks FF is scum. Goes onto the "marv is a better lynch" thing again. But as I stated in my earlier post I kinda think that this is a case of "weak method with strong indicators vs strong method with weak indicators" and poor phrasing. - Knocking you down in estimation for claiming he's voting marv. Eh. Standard. Tries to explain what I just said in the point above. - Criticises FF for changing his vote from one scumread to another. Which I do actually find a bit weird honestly. FF might be scum, but he's not scum based on that. - Last few posts seem to largely be him getting mad at you for not understanding the point he's trying to make. Capped with an OMGUS vote. Conclusion? There's some weird stuff going on but not enough for me to make a scum call on it. I'd null lean scum on him right now, but since I can follow his train of thought (even if others can't) and it appears to make sense I'm not going to lynch him D1. I really don't like where he's going on the FF thing though. Overnight I might reread FF's filter. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
On October 13 2015 03:21 -Celestial- wrote: Stream of consciousness: - Part of the initial argument with ES. Honestly to me that whole thing just feels town on town. Uninformative. - Comments about anger and rage in mafia TL. Then funny comment to me. Nothing much there. - "Starting to warm up to the marv lynch". Says FF is giving counterarguments to what he claimed. Marv better lynch than FF. - Comment on people not playing. NAI. It was winding me up too. - Replies to you well about FF's counterarguments. Don't have a problem with this bit. The next bit is admittedly a bit weird: he says marv is a good lynch but is staying on FF because FF is on marv which to him means that he's wrong about one of them. This is faulty logic to me. marv is nowhere in sight at this point. It makes perfect sense for FF to bus him if they're scumbuddies. It doesn't have to be either/or, they definitely could still both be scum. That being said it doesn't feel especially scummy to me. Maybe a little, but more like just a questionable leap in logic. - Calls you town. Fairly easy call to make at that point I think. - Stuff about pocketing. Tangentially related to the game but eh. - Conversation with FF about his reads. He's convinced one of FF and marv is scum and effectively states that even without a marv flip he has enough on FF to make him believe he's scum. Which is fine as a position to take as far as I'm concerned but I'm not really convinced by the argument against FF honestly. Nor am I convinced that only one of FF and marv HAS to be scum. - Gets somewhat unnecessarily aggressive in a follow up about the pocketing. Seems a bit weird; although his point is sound. Nobody is going to admit to pocketing. - Reiterates that he thinks FF is scum. Goes onto the "marv is a better lynch" thing again. But as I stated in my earlier post I kinda think that this is a case of "weak method with strong indicators vs strong method with weak indicators" and poor phrasing. - Knocking you down in estimation for claiming he's voting marv. Eh. Standard. Tries to explain what I just said in the point above. - Criticises FF for changing his vote from one scumread to another. Which I do actually find a bit weird honestly. FF might be scum, but he's not scum based on that. - Last few posts seem to largely be him getting mad at you for not understanding the point he's trying to make. Capped with an OMGUS vote. Conclusion? There's some weird stuff going on but not enough for me to make a scum call on it. I'd null lean scum on him right now, but since I can follow his train of thought (even if others can't) and it appears to make sense I'm not going to lynch him D1. I really don't like where he's going on the FF thing though. Overnight I might reread FF's filter. I'm going to wait on what Kelsier says and then make a decision. If he think I've been tunneling too, I'm going to have to accept that Shining made a terrible contradiction and play that made so sense and that he should be allowed to get away with it. But I'm still going to keep an eye on him. | ||
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