EPTNewbie Student Mafia VII - Page 8
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On April 13 2015 10:10 rsoultin wrote: what's really bugging me, hts, is both of those posts from prp came before your long post on why you thought plot was town Uh, I know I'm not going insane here, but that's what I was responding to >_< | ||
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On April 13 2015 10:52 rsoultin wrote: the point was that you made a post after prp's on why you thought he was scum, which is why it makes no sense for you to say that his posts convinced you on stutters and that second quote you clearly weren't picking sides yet either the post from breshke saying he wouldn't switch actually came before your vote on stutters, too like literally nothing in this defense disproves anything i said The post came after but that still doesn't discount that I went back to his post and reconsidered. That should have been quite clear actually when I said "oh shit, now I see what prplhz and dwarf said" The last part of that defence was aimed at prplhz who said this: On April 13 2015 10:05 prplhz wrote: well i do see some lack of enthusiasm as well. i was hoping that you'd do something for the lynch after i went for a run but you just sat around and then voted 2 mins before deadline. breshke had shown up and said "no" at that point so plotspot was pretty dead, don't know why you waited for that before changing your vote. | ||
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On April 13 2015 11:12 rsoultin wrote: like i'm gonna be frank with you here, hts...unless i'm just completely missing something, your behavior at EoD is basically indefensible. if stutters is town, you may very well have scum-slipped saying you voted an unflipped townie you need to either point out something i missed (not make up reasoning i can't verify) or convince me someone else is scummier than you, cause i don't think this argument is getting you anywhere Eh, I'm not really making anything up. If you are mafia deliberately choosing not to understand it, it wouldn't surprise me if you were but if you're town not getting what I'm trying to say, it wouldn't surprise me either. Not the first time this has happened. | ||
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On April 11 2015 19:17 Tubesock wrote: I've read Plot's filter, and I don't think he looks that great. My problem with him though is that there are at least three posts where I feel I need a rosetta stone. I have no idea what he's saying. The stuff I did understand, I don't remember having any eureka moment, or a sharing a brain type moment either. So far he hasn't been useful to me at all. That's not towny. I haven't invested any energy in him though. Sorry this isn't very helpful for you. On April 11 2015 19:35 Tubesock wrote: These reek of covering his ass as mafia. It's pretty waffly. I think it's different than how Breshke waffled on Dwarf though. I feel like Breshke didn't actually care what people though of his waffle. Yet, this is very much defensive. Then we get this. On April 12 2015 02:22 Tubesock wrote: Town, don't do any stupid shinanny shit. Vote Dwarf or vote Plotspot. He's not looking good either. Now wait a minute - here's the kicker - this comes RIGHT after prplhz calls attention to lynching Soren or Stutters On April 12 2015 05:13 Tubesock wrote: Stutters. Well, he has like 5 posts but they seem to have content and I read them and think he's at least thinking about the game. I think he's WAY more towny and useful than Dwarf or even Plotspot considering his weirdness. So this tells me that Tube is townreading Stutters. Then Tube says THIS about Plot. I then immediately question why he's not trying to interpret Plotspot when he brought the rosetta stone thing up and he said he wasn't a good multitasker. A cop out? On April 12 2015 05:23 Tubesock wrote: You guys should probably jump off Plot. This is I don't even know what this is. And the rest of his recent stuff. (Note: butched the quote bracket from Tube) I didn't really try because I was trying to figure out why Dwarf is doing what Dwarf is doing. I don't think I'm a very good multitasker. [...] Long story, mostly I was thinking about Dwarf. But I also wasn't too worried about others since people were doing stuff. My current towns Breshke, Soren, Prp, Rso, Jar, and you if you were posting as a smurf or something. And then BOOM. Vote on Stutters. Why didn't I see this before. On April 12 2015 05:37 Tubesock wrote: If this can save Plotspots for now I'll shenanny to Stutters695. ##Unvote ##Vote: Stutters695 There is no rationale - I'm not seeing it in his filter of any progression on Stutters other than "sheeping prp" and wanting to save plotspots. You think I look bad for my switch? Tube was townreading Stutters and then he voted him. In page 3 of his filter, he says he's sheeping prplhz. On April 12 2015 05:55 Tubesock wrote: Basically, Plots been doing some weird weird scumclaimy play. Just in the last 3 pages. Makes me queasy and Prplhz also. I'm basically sheeping Prp. I realise this is a wall post - But basically he's townreading Stutters and then he votes Stutters. I have no idea how Tube plays scum. But just taking a sharp look at his filter (pages 2-3) this looks pretty bad. | ||
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prp looked fine, On re-examination, Tube did not. That long wall post is me illustrating why Tube's switch to Stutters is problematic. | ||
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Tube townreads Stutters. At the very least I'm understanding from him Stutters is higher on the townie totem pole for him than Plot. Why doesn't he question his townread? I asked him to grasp plotspot but he used the rosetta stone/mutitasking argument and then sheeped prplhz onto a townread. prplhz had a decent thought process for the switch. But with Tube something isn't adding up. | ||
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On April 13 2015 16:41 Tubesock wrote: Continuing reading from that link, it can't be possible that she gave Stutters695 any deep real analysis. She did continue to case Postplot. She was still asking me stuff about Dwarf. I think it looks like she's contemplating him. She does make another big case post on Postplot that lands at 7 minutes prior to deadline. She's really thinking about Stutters AND building a fairly big post on Postplot??? Then she "pushes" Stutters in 3 posts all within 5 minutes of deadline. Can someone tell me how this makes sense as town? My problems is why would mafiaHTS basically start a wagon off town? But then she still pushed the original wagon? I'd like you to at least think how you would push someone with three minutes until EoD. If you can type up a sparkly case in 90 seconds, I applaud you. But to think I should have some detailed analysis (which you infer to be a good, or town-based push) in that timeframe is unreasonable. It is not hard to look at the case on Stutters and come to the conclusion I did. It does not require detailed analysis, at least based on your criteria. Also I did not start the wagon on Stutters, prplhz did. I read her cases and I think some of them are contrived. In the JoaT game she was ninja. I scummed and cased her HARD for her actions prior to the town lynch of Sicklucker. I kind of caught her? She was 3P (third party) and NotTown. I'm feeling the same thing here (nottown). She was caught up on why Dwarf said something 3 times like it makes him scummy but not the other half billion things he was doing that was scummy. She has mentioned how "not having new" ideas is scummy. I think in that bringing up past 3 times thing is her way of bringing "new" information. Trying to look towny. Her other stuff is just nitpicky. It's not the motivation behind her targets actions it's the inconsistencies of it. Well, town can be inconsistent. It happens. It's all about motivation. I'm pretty sure this is an opportunistic vote but I'm going to highlight for the others the flaws in this argument. 1 In games where a third party exists, third party roles can be either pro or anti-town. Regarding my role in JOAT, third party assassin has a town agenda aside from attempts at killing the other assassin (or ninjas as they were called in JOAT). If town lose before assassins find each other, they lose, end of. It is in their interest to stay and play pro-town especially in a game where scum had a shittonne of KP. (In large games, scum will generally have more than 1kp, unlike here). That said, in JOAT, I was third party but was operating on a town agenda for the basis of that particular vote. This is the example I tried to highlight earlier. In fact, Kitaman in particular noted how I was reading the thread, and taking into consideration how each of the candidates (SL and Sandroba) could be scum, and that's exactly what I did here. The difference is that in that game, is that I had a considerable amount of time to consider each of the candidates. In this game, I had an epiphany with minutes to spare and made a judgement that was reasonable 1) in the amount of time that I had and 2) with the material I had in front of me for Stutters. Which again, doesn't require the analysis that Tube seems to be setting as criteria. 2 The other billion things where he was scummy was shot down or explained away by others as either him being new or being NAI. Post-lynch he needed to be examined on how he voted plotspot (which I see Breshke is already doing). That said, I'm going to move on to finding the (likely) 1-2 scum on the plotspot wagon. At first glance, Bourneq and Stutters themselves will be a good place to start. I'm in meetings for a few hours here at work, but will field questions when I return. Also Rasputin, you asked me about Stutters, but Stutters actually looks worse after reading his filter. | ||
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I'm taking the approach of evaluating each of the main wagons D1 with the working theory there are 2 scum on the plot wagon and one on the Stutters counter wagon. I evaluated the Stutters counterwagon last night with Tube and possibly Dwarf being suspect. I have Rasputin/others wanting to lynch me for faulty logic (namely my changing votes on Stutters 2m before EoD) without considering the possibly that 1) I can't consider all possibility simultaneously and 2) it being completely unreasonable to expect a detailed case with the scant amount of time left. I've explained it enough, so I'm filter diving the people on the plot wagon atm. | ||
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Trfel, vote count analysis is pretty common in these games. You should recall Damdred doing this in Guardians. | ||
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On April 14 2015 00:07 rsoultin wrote: this is true hts, i already said i'm not stuck on you, but i do need you to convince me someone is more scummy than you, yeah? stutters said he'd be playing today so he has no excuse not to, but dwarf and bourne seem to have dropped off the face of the earth lol >< i'm not going to ignore you, hts. i've grown past the blindly tunnel phase as a player (i'd like to think, anyway xP) Fair enough. I'm stuck in meetings, will do once I'm out.... | ||
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On April 14 2015 00:17 rsoultin wrote: you're right, hts, but usually people do it combined with reads? it isn't pure oh vote looks scummy therefore scum like i caught -celestial- because he was vocal that he didn't like the main wagon but still wasted his vote instead of trying to save him (lol sound a little familiar here?  ) and i cleared breshke in a later game cause even though his vote looked scummy, the lead-up to it looked genuineif you're town i get what you're trying to do, but it doesn't really work the way you're doing it, ya know? Pretty sure I've been analysing the context of the vote (arguments around it) aside from the placement of vote and timing? Particularly with Tube? Unless you meant my response to Trfel. I'm free for an hour so a bit more mobile on the laptop on this forum atm \o/ Anyhow, carrying on. | ||
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On April 12 2015 06:01 LoneMeow wrote: Final vote count: TheBloodyDwarf (1): Breshke (0): The Shining (1): plotspot Bourneq (0): plotspot (7): prplhz (0): Stutters695 (4): prplhz, Tubesock, TheBloodyDwarf, Half the Sky So looking at the plot wagon - off the cuff I would say that Onegu, Bourneq and Stutters would be the three most suspicious on this wagon. Not all three would be scum under the working theory of 2 on this wagon and one on the counterwagon, but it's most likely there's 2 in the 3 I listed. But this gives me a starting point. Timing and context of each vote - Starting with Onegu Onegu - Voted him twice. First was for the random alphabetical vote on Ace fairly early in the game. He unvoted (approx 10m) after that when prplhz showed him the timestamps. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=14#265 Votes Breshke halfway through for the lynchbait comment, also saying that he didn't buy his explanation for waffling. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=23#444 (Breshke's justification is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=23#447) The issue here is not only he doesn't push Breshke if he believes in this lynch but when Rasputin and I both call him on it respectively: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=30#582 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=27#531 His responses are pretty darn evasive. Also of note - all this while, there is zero mention of plotspot whilst he's focusing on Breshke. Now he AFKs for a bit and then comes back as we're deliberating over Stutters. Another thing for Onegu (or now his slot) that doesn't add up is that he's looking at Rasputin as potential scum. This was way before, but then he votes with her and then concludes post deadline that she is scum. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=22#432 Another thing that doesn't make sense (disclaimer: metaread) is that Onegu is VERY familiar with martyring as he's done it himself AND he's made a similar counterargument for someone martyring and he didn't seem to consider that in his decision. Supporting links here: - from a game I played with Onegu, Hammertime Mafia 1 Onegu actually martyring himself as town: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475954-hammertime-mafia?page=40#788 2 Onegu making an argument that someone is martyring: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475954-hammertime-mafia?page=39#768 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/475954-hammertime-mafia?page=39#775 If he's somewhat skeptical, it doesn't make sense he's look at a scumclaim AND then vote with a potental scumread WITHOUT considering it could be a martyr. Note that his vote is thrown on at the end when a number of us are piled onto plotspot. I bring up the counterarguments to Stutters over plotspot as the better lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/480171-newbie-student-mafia-vii?page=46#908 For which there is no reaction from Onegu. So here are the following things that don't make sense for Onegu: 1 Breshke being the best lynch - doesn't push him, is challenged on "waffling" by 2 players and is evasive with subsequent answers. 2 Drops plotspot once, and then votes him in a context that makes no sense for his experience. He is familiar with scumclaims and doesn't consider it himself. 3 Votes with (same wagon) as a potential scumread - Rasputin - whom he then concludes after deadline is quite scummy. Comments/questions would be appreciated. I realise Onegu is out of the game. But his slot needs to be challenged as scmmy. Client dinner pretty soon. I will get to continue with Bourneq and Dwarf afterwards. | ||
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