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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
On October 08 2014 14:51 Breshke wrote: Im here Rad, i disagree with you i think lists can be useful as it makes it hard for mafia to leave their partners out of their reads. Why don't you put one out there then? A lot of people did. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
(Waited to post this for ages - didn't wanna distract from the lynch) | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
On October 09 2014 06:10 abuse wrote: Guess it's time to start looking elsewhere. I am not a big fan of posting during the night, so my more important post will probably appear near the end of N2. Meanwhile, everyone please reevaluate what has happened so far, and who had what kind of interaction with zen. Who could have acted while knowing zen's alignment, to get town points or to push zen without basis and or in a scummy way. and yes @Mods what will happen to dusts? This is a good point. I must admit, my case is not the most detailed yet, but at the moment the person that acted the most in this way is Breshke. Even though tbf, he didn't get many town points and is on the radar of some of us. Which is good Will check the filters of more people soon to find out. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
On October 09 2014 05:50 Elvis! wrote: I'm sorry about this short post, but I want it to be able to be discussed before the deadline. I will insert more quotes that support this asap, but due to real life issues I had less time than I thought I would. My current read for the most scummy is: Breshke: ##Vote: Breshke He does post an amount which is not suspiciously low, but moslty in a very short manner each time. Even though he asks some questions, there rarely is follow-up, more analysis or just generally use of that information. I see this as a subtle way to try to hide being mafia, shallowly you appear non-mafia, since you can see him posting and gathering some information, but I think what he's doing is more to confuse town than to hunt scum. Which is what we're here for. The only way he "contributes" is with a fishy vote on Zen, which Superbia and the surrounding characters have a decent case on, but Breshke was merely a small time before the vote, defending Zen against accusations. A townie would adress why, and in detail, one should not only follow a bandwagon, insert personal thoughts about the case and support it. He simply jumps on something he as a mafia knows is not mafia, is a good scapegoat and has a decent case against the person. This is the perfect opportunity for him as mafia to strike and hide. Then there is multiple posts which insert chaos, which according to this analysis (yes abuse I too have read this one - it's really good), is exactly mafia's role. To sum it up: How do I think I detected him? He not only does donkey things like loaf, but things that stop us from scumhunting. He jumps on a bandwagon that even though it has a decent background, might be close but not quite(read: a lot of people are getting read as scum at the moment, most people vote on Zen because to them he appears a little more scummy than the rest, but not in a crazy substantial way). my current list: abuse + superbia go the most into scumhunting. I like how they don't fear to be in the spotlight and get their cases forward(!!!). They share position 1 - would not put them in my town circle quite yet, waiting for cases on more people (which they announced already) to happen. Rad is not as intense in doing so as they are, but I don't see scum indicators and few town indicators, so he's on position 3 in my townPosition 3 - leans town FecalFeast for me at the moment is null, I can't really say what his actions indicate the most, will look at him in more detail later when the next big thing happens. He does not seem dangerous or disruptive, so he's not a scum read for me. position 4 - null. dusts: -- no position --.  loafery for me at the moment is just making a whole bunch of weird actions which might or might not be intended to be disruptive. Since some of his things are more scum-like than town he is Position 5 - leans scum. Zen for me still is the second worst of them all, but for me I think Breshes disruptive and chaotic actions are more clear. He might be the second scum with breshke, since he isn't as obvious as Breshke for me atm I'll not vote for him. Position 6 - leans into scum like a drunk guy on a fit girl. Breshke - see above. I also explained why I discarded loaf for now and why I chose Breshke and not Zen, even though I thought Zen is suspicious, but not as clear. On October 09 2014 08:51 Breshke wrote: Sorry i didn't explain that very well. So elvis says "He simply jumps on something he as a mafia knows is not mafia, is a good scapegoat and has a decent case against the person. This is the perfect opportunity for him as mafia to strike and hide." So if you look back i vote Zen after superbia prompting me to do so then fairly soon after change my vote to you FF. Let's pretend i'm Elvis thinking Breshke is mafia. He sees this vote and says he thinks its me jumping on voting on a town. So by this logic he thinks Zen is town. Why didn't he try and stop the lynch why didn't he even mention this anywhere else? Wouldn't the better assumption to come to at that point be that me and Zen were partners and i was getting worried about the vote on him going through. In fact im fairly sure this is what your reaction my change of vote was saying i was getting nervous. I realize this is probably poorly explained so if you have anymore questions about it feel free to ask. On October 09 2014 09:01 Fecalfeast wrote: oh I just re-read abuse's post and I get why he got mad at me. I will sate your bloodlust before it starts and respond to this paragraph I skimmed. I liked the post because the poster was actually trying and putting effort into his post. I liked the post as evidence of Elvis! being town. What I didn't like was elvis unvoting just because he didn't think his target was going to get lynched. If you think someone is scum, it shouldn't matter what the rest of town is doing until there is a chance of a no-lynch. I read rad town even though he doesn't like me too much. He seems to be trying to make use of a busy schedule's limited time. Could be a story, though who knows. Loaf is null still. Yeah people have made decent arguments about him but I personally don't find things like assuming himself to be confirmed town as scummy as others seem to. At this point I read everything and was deciding on who's filter to inspect more throughoutly. The main reason was not because I didn't think it would get through, but that I had concerns about loaf maybe just being donkey town and seeing that there is more important targets for now. If loaf gets more suspicious again I will start another push. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
I do not recall ever calling Zen town. I know I did make an educated guess, that in the case Breshke is mafia, Zen is not. I also said that Zen really leans scum BUT that I also think that I'm not quite sure about Zen, which is the main reason I voted Breshke. Even though Zen appeared fishy and even though I liked some of the content people pushed against him, I said that I'm not sure on his case, but that he seems very scummy. My thinking into this was: "Okay we have a couple of people who are a bit or a lot like mafia usually are. Zen seems very fishy but Breshke seems more clear. Let's try to back that up and make a small case out of it." Tbh I didn't quite think through that I indirectly called Zen town with this. Not what I wanted to express. I hope my main message got through I know that this post didn't have a ton of quality and long thinking going into this. This will improve the next times. Also I might have been misinterpreted. I wanted to make sure that my main point in the push was him inflicting chaos. Not the vote. On a unrelated note: loaf is being donkey again: On October 09 2014 09:27 Rad wrote: Believe it or not, I had already written #1 and as I refreshed to check updates, super had said the same thing. Zen was NOT scum hunting, at all. This guy just messes my brain up so much. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
All of these for me are scum indicators. Gotta go to training now, thus I don't have time to polish this, I hope it's satisfying. I wanted to get this out now since Breshke for some reason wants people to wait for this. On October 08 2014 09:29 Breshke wrote: Do you not agree then that people reading you as town just for misreading the OP could be scummy then? Like this is something that could be faked so i don't see how people can get a town read off that. Also in my opinion not trying to answer questions is scummy because it makes it seem like you have something to hide but I understand there been so much focus on you so there's a lot to answer. I'm uneasy about superbia and ff saying they both basically disagree with the push on loaf but aren't pushing on anyone themselves. Who are you both scum reading? Who do you think should be a wagon for today? Also my biggest town at the moment is abuse from his hard push on loaf as he was the first one to actively push his reads and doing this as mafia would majorly put the spotlight on him if loaf gets lynched and happens to flip town. Breshke telling people to read scum and start a wagon, while he himself has no reasonable case yet? He had his one on ff, but even though he puts him as scum he doesn't really push for it, doesn't start a wagon, doesn't encourage other to read into ff more, and mostly, is in not commital about it. The thing that concerns me the most is that he votes for someone who noone made a big case of yet and doesn't really analyse ff in a big way either. So if you read him scum, why not be confident, research and make a case out of it? On October 08 2014 10:44 Breshke wrote: I want to try explain something in defense of Zen but i am not reading him as town he is still null for me at the moment. So he made his wall post about loaf which was basically just sheeping abuse. In my first game im not sure if you remember I basically just sheeped the entire game when I tried to make posts because i was finding it really hard to make content of my own. This post here is probably the reason why zen then pretends that he read through the thread better and only just saw abuses post. Zen don't do this, its hardly ever good to lie as town especially about stuff like this. If you saw abuses post and agreed with it say that. I do agree however that non committal reads are not good because they don't give much information. Care to tell us your thoughts on people in particular superbia and loaf. ##Vote: The_Zen_Man This post has been frequently talked about, what's more confusing than defending a player, and then claiming he's scum for reasons he himself isn't fulfilling? Where's your committal reads? Going on the player everyone is on about without giving much proof or anything isn't committal. On October 08 2014 15:23 Breshke wrote: I'm not actually sure like the interaction between superbia and ff about the vote on zen really seems off to me like superbia can just tell ff what to do. He has said he doesnt like to be lumped together with super and then votes along side him without explaining anything. He has posted a lot but has yet to give a scumread of his own and is voting on someone because someone who he has said he doesnt want to be paired with told him to. Looking back on this i think this is very scummy. ##Vote: Fecalfeast Just because two people go on the same person (which you did go on as well) doesn't mean one can "tell the other what to do". How is that relevant? then " He has said he doesnt like to be lumped together with super and then votes along side him without explaining anything. " so did you. I mean ok, if it isn't your style to make big posts, I guess that's not really good for town but fine, but why complain about others who do the same? On October 08 2014 16:06 Breshke wrote: ##Unvote Vote:Fecalfeast My vote on Zen was more for pressure and his dislike of non committal reads he has made. I feel that for the quantity of your reads you have provided a very little amount of information and you only voted for Zen after superbia made a case on him. It feels like you are just trying to cruise by. Nervous about what? Why would i be nervous? Why are you so worried about my vote like you quoted As above mentioned - just like yours I feel like. If you make a reasonable case on Zen, fine, but you basically just agreed with everyone else and cruised by. Since we now know Zen is town, this makes a lot more sense to do as mafia. On October 09 2014 05:48 Breshke wrote: It looks like you are going to be lynched here and if you are town you want to leave us with as much useful info as you can so start reading people. He isn't a donkey. This is unnecesarry information, but makes you look like you're doing something. On October 09 2014 06:39 Breshke wrote: In response to abuse's post which can be found here First of all i wrote about the dumbtell again in that post because I wanted people to see my thought process. Probably not that useful but whatever i did it. I then go on and say I am reading loaf town because he actually starts scum hunting and stops talking about previous games. He even has the same mindset as me in going for superbia as he had been not actually pushing on people at this point. Then onto my post about Zen. I feel Zen is more of a newbie like me. You guys are very good at constructing cases on people, I read them and think oh i want to add to this then just end up rearranging the words and posting it not realizing that ive just completely copied your post plus like one little extra argument I've thought of. This is what Zen did and after doing this myself i thought i could try explain it as people were getting worked up about him telling "lies". I also then voted him but that was because as i said he had non committal reads. He basically hadn't given a substantial read on anyone but loaf and even that was iffy. This vote was a placeholder and superbia was pushing for people to jump on his bandwagon so i thought I'd indulge him for a bit and see if he had some play lined up. I agree my posts are generally too short i don't know if this is my play style or what but i probably need to improve that. Yes i don't always use peoples answers to my questions but it lets me see their thought process and tries to keep conversation flowing. Next the bolded section. Are you saying here you know Zen is town? This was posted before the flip and confuses me because the way i voted there if i was a 3rd party i would have probably assumed that i was partners with Zen not he town and myself mafia. You are obviously reading Zen town so why did you not say anything in his defense at all? Also i'm interested to see the quotes of where i inset chaos because i don't think i have been doing that. Same with you. I really don't get you at this point. You love pointing out how people are not doing good cases or analysis and are jumping onto people while your posts rarely exceed a couple of lines and we are yet to see you push someone substantually. On October 09 2014 16:55 Breshke wrote: Also either say why i'm scum or don't. Don't tell people you will read them town if they call me mafia. If i'm mafia i'd have a partner who would get a free town read. I see no reason for this post. ... and everyone else would read you like they should anyways. If a mafia openly reads you mafia this might very well make him slip up because he can not be commital to such a read. I don't think having everyone read a person about his alignment at once is terrible and I don't see how this is "has no reason". Some people are suspicious about you, why wouldn't they ask everyone else how they feel about you? To remind, you did this a couple of times (blindly asking about someone feels about X person). On October 09 2014 05:31 Breshke wrote: Just woke up, will respond to abuses posts later like in night phase unless anyone specifically wants it now. Zen you are about to be lynched you need to leave us with some info who are you reading scum other than superbia as much as rad doesn't like lists a list wold be fine. Why did you post this same thing twice? So by that you are positive that Zen is town, am I right? It would be useless to have a mafia explain how he feels about stuff. So I conclude that you read Zen town, since you didn't vote on him and didn't like the case, why didn't you defend Zen, why didn't you ask for his opinion on other at a time where things could actually be changed? At this point it's too late to save him and vote mafia, if you think his reads are important why not try getting them earlier? In your list it says Zen leans scum, why would you want him to do a read? On October 09 2014 05:59 Breshke wrote: Town Loaf Abuse Superbia Leantown Rad Null Elvis Dusts Leanscum Zen Scum ff Then this list. To not rant about all the other things again: Why are there no explanations on any of these? This is a default list for anyone wanting to get town points by ranking the popular persons high. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
I made the assumption that in the case Breshke is scum (which after further investigation seems very likely), Zen would be a nice bandwagon to jump on. I did not specify there if he just would bus Zen or if I think Zen is town. I still read Zen as scummy, but like loaf, he might just be a weird townie that does unusual stuff that's usually done by scum. This is the main reason I voted for Breshke and not Zen. I thought Breshke doesn't just seem weird but outright scummy. At the point of my EoD post on Breshke I focussed on him, read his filter and thought to myself "what if he is scum. then he knows Zen's alignment. If Zen, against what I thought, isn't scum, this would be the perfect time to go on a bandwagon. Maybe Zen's very scummy town then!" and in all the hurry, I posted. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
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Elvis!
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If Breshke would have read my posts right he would know that there is not contradiction between calling someone very scummy but yet town. Saying I'm scum for this sole reason, which I explained multiple times already, is pointless, there is no decent analysis at all of my case in his post, it's basically just OMGUS. This OMGUS defense just further proves how he doesn't have any town motives. If a town thinks someone is mafia, the townie would make a posts with proof of scummy behaviour and thus stir up discussion on the matter. While everyone can feel free about talking about my alignment, since I've got nothing to hide I think it's pointless and that we're not doing proper scumhunting with this. Looking forward to everyone else's posts on Breshke and other scum pushes. Especially from superbia since he said he now has to reevaluate everything and I'm interested in what he'll come up with. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
On October 10 2014 20:29 Breshke wrote: I disagree, i think that especially on D1 even if you can get a PR read on someone it is extremely hard to tell what PR they are so i don't see why you have any reason to say that you think that mafia probably knows who PRs are. Why mention this at all if not to scare town. I'm not making anything up, im not even reading you as mafia at the moment you are null for me i have no idea what you are doing but I really don't think both mafia would be the two main people to push on me because if i getting lynched i WILL flip town and it its going to look terrible for you two. Why would he assume that at all then? This makes no sense if he assumed he was town in a read on my why is he in his scum. why is that scenario even going through his head. Abuse I know for a fact that at least 2 of your 3 scum reads this game are wrong and i don't know if this is because you are mafia or confused town. Get out of your tunnel for a second and assume i am town or just take me out of this game completely. Who would be your scum reads? Why is that thoght going through my head? Like according to you I am not allowed to not be sure about Zen. I never said Zen is scum for sure. If you want to be good townie you have to view everyone as a possible scum/town, view from their possible perspective and then decide on what to post. I only went through the possibility of Zen being town and it made a lot of sense for me, everything combined and makes sense so far. I could not have known that beforehand, but mafia is a game of assumptions. So why would I not go through scenarios where Zen is town and you are mafia? Why is that scummy, why is that forbidden, why does it not make sense to you? Talking about assumptions, this is one of the weirdest things you said so far. So far us towns people don't know anything except that Zen was town and that the night kill didn't succeed. Throwing around buzzwords like "I know for a fact" is just claiming things you don't have any proof on. As an example, how do you know abuse isn't mafia? He's obviously not my top candidate for now but he could be. I would never be sure about these things if I don't have proof, which is really really rare in the game of mafia. Except if you are mafia, of course........ As I forgot I haven't voted today yet: ##Vote: Breshke | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
On October 10 2014 21:27 Breshke wrote: That bolded part is horribly wrong sorry it is ment to say, This makes no sense if he assumed Zen was town to read me scum then why would he have him in his scumlist. [quoteAlso it's no good assuming that scum do not have a brain to have ideas as to what the setup could be right now, judging by other people's posts so far.] You said this and it makes no sense to me the only thing they know is if there is a role blocker or not. I do agree that other people need to talk and ill be going to bed soon and hope to see content from others in the morning. Which leads to them knowing a lot about the setup. If there is a Roleblocker, only 2 scenarios are possible: Mafia Roleblocker Town Cop Town Doctor or 1-shot Bulletproof Townie Mafia Roleblocker Town Jailkeeper So they would know that there cannot be a Tracker. If they know there is no Roleblocker it can only be Town Cop Mafia Goon Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon Town Doctor Town Tracker So they would know that there cannot be a 1-shot Bulletproof Townie. How does talking about this amount of information not make sense? It's very relevant how the situation would be after roleclaims, and if it might have advantages for the town. Why do you refuse talking about all kinds of possible scenarios? It's not like there is an obvious answer to them. To repeat: Zen was not 100% scum for me at the time. If someone isn't 100%, which since this is the game of mafia is extremely rare to happen, he must always be available to be seen as townie. You don't want people to tunnel? Allow different perspectives. This is the most interesting thing you have said on the topic: On October 10 2014 20:29 Breshke wrote: Get out of your tunnel for a second and assume i am town or just take me out of this game completely. Who would be your scum reads? This is exaclty what I did with Zen, getting him outside my tunnel and viewing as a weird, possible town. Now this for you is a reason to call me scum, even though you want people to do EXACTLY that with you. Whaaaaaaaaat? | ||
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Elvis!
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Inducing chaos for me means you're not being productive, you're distracting town, you're not hunting scum, generally posting stuff that doesn't lead us to find scum. As I posted in my previous posts, I have found a lot of times where you weren't scumhunting, preventing scumhunting and more. Anyone just read my big 2 posts on Breshke. On October 11 2014 06:24 Breshke wrote: So elvis i can know some stuff for a fact. I know im town and i know Zen was town. that is two of abuses scumreads. How can you have a problem with me saying that? You know why you don't talk about the possible setups? Because it is mafias reactions to these posts that help them find PRs. We arn't even in mylo yet so unless a PR has useful information i don't see any point in talking about them, It is still weird to me that Zen was your second biggest scum read even bigger than loaf who you had made a case on and yet you considered him town trying to use vote logic. The thing is that the vote logic there would have also worked if he was my scum buddy so i still don't see why you would use the world where you assume he is town. I still think it was a slip. Also there are other reasons i am calling you scum. Your entire first post on me was bullshit. two of its main points were the vote on Zen and that i was causing chaos. I then called you out on the vote on Zen and you said that that point wasnt important it was more the causing chaso. I then ask you to show the quotes you promised that show i am causing chaos. What you come back with is sub par andyou never point out exactly where i am misleading town or causing chaos. So once again i will ask you Elvis Where was i causing chaos? Also who do you think my "scum" partner is? FF i find that you are reading Elvis town because he has done the most work worrying. Abuse has done so much more than him and doesn't dodge my questions when I ask him to explain parts of his read. Well obviously I read Zen bigger scum than loaf, I posted that at this point loaf is just being weird and doesn't seem to have big scum motives. You made a case on him as well and didn't really explain why you changed your mind so quickly except saying "He's a newbie, too" . Pulling the newbie card is a convenient yet useless excuse to change ones mind. I don't know who your scum partner is, yet. You at the moment are quite undisputable scum for me, noone else is close at the moment. talking about "newbie" stuff is not helping anything and inducing chaos. A big example of you being scummy is talking over and over again about how it's absolutely unthinkable for you to have me think Zen isn't scum. I posted multiple times that at the time of my posts on the matter I didn't read Zen as surefire scum. The scenario where he's not scum but you are makes a lot more sense. You say I should have considered you two being a scum pair. A scum pair where on of the two makes a push on the other? If properly hidden this would be a really good scum manouver, but terribly difficult to pull off, since either you bus your partner or you have to pull back in a weird fashion, which would be criticized and considered as a scum behaviour. Then, talking about being unreasonable, chaotic, disruptive, you just go OMGUS on my post against you, only defending yourself against the things you want and "defending" by saying I'm mafia basically. Then you post a "case" on me that's a couple of lines long, has no quotes whatsoever and only focusses on 1. The Zen-scum-thing, which I explained multiple times and on 2. me not proofing your chaotic behaviour, which I already did a lot, I just didn't call it that way (and apparently you think about the term "chaotic" a lot differently than me - I have no idea what you'd call chaotic, since you just say you're not without reasoning) 3. me generally "being bullshit" and 4. me making a case on you. This is not at all townie behaviour. Town would be able to proof their point with quotes and would find usual scum indicators and slips if there are any. The only thing you think you "found" is the Zen-dilemma. On day 2 a single thing should not make up your whole read and should make you reevaluate if that person is scum. Then, you desperately try to get everyone to think similair to you and tell them 29034570982745 times they should have a look at your post about me. This is not a townie move, people will look and consider your case if they think it's legit. With these kind of posts, your not scumhunting or supporting scumhunting at all. You post a lot, but almost never find any scummy things, almost never talk about people other people consider scum and defend with a OMGUS post, calling someone mafia for way too less reasoning. Not relevant, we're not trying to find a proven townie. You're basically trying to look townie via a random qoute that could make any idiot discussing a lot "probably town". The basic message of the quote is alright, but it's a general thing that's not applicable to your case. Afterwards the posts about loaf getting modkilled. Why don't you look things up before making such a random post that's just plain wrong? There is no reason to post something you didn't research properly as town. Still you post impulsively on things that are just distracting town from scumhunting. This is chaotic. On October 11 2014 08:20 Breshke wrote: Sorry i thought loaf hadn't spoken during this day phase. I've actually put a lot of effort into this so this phase feels like its gone on forever ignore the modkill shit. Also about the people watching stuff yeah sure i agree people watching can probably be scum. I also agree people in the thick of it can also probably be scum. You put a lot of effort into this. Where can I see this effort? Please answer. I don't see it at all. The second bolded part: So this basically says nothing, distracts, doesn't add anything to the discussion and is just plain useless. CHAOTIC. On October 11 2014 08:23 Breshke wrote: I don't know fecal as i have said before im not sure which between the four that voted are probably mafia. I don't like how if you take out the lurkier people (superbia rad loaf), you have the least content. It doesn't feel like you were truly reading me as scum when you were calling me scum. That being said I want to see more from rad and superbia before i make my mind up on them. Useless post, nothing productive, no further read on superbia rad and loaf or fecal. You adress the "who of the people who voted Zen are mafia" way too often for the amount you actually filterdive these people. So you are pretty sure one of them or more is scummy, why don't you make a case, why don't you post more info in these people or something like that? No townie reason to not go on someone and proof one's own point or discard it. So you want someone to filter dive someone else, but haven't really done so at all. Why do you want Superbia in particular? Why don't you post a detailed opinion on Superbia before demanding something like that? You could have just said "look who you find the most important to dive" or "I think this person is xyz, do you think so too after looking at his filter?". You never post detailed reads on anyone. This is what mafia do. They post, they read people mildy, they push midly, they don't proof, they post a lot of stuff that doesn't help to find scum, they post distracting stuff, and post a lot of useless stuff that tries looking non-useless. I asked you multiple times why you don't do usual town deeds like doing detailed posts. Detailed posts are what follow up questions and gathering of information. You try to look townie by gathering, but you never use your information. You are yet to provide town with more than a couple of small reads and these small reads don't have a lot of information used in them. You are guessing, you are calling people out, but you're not having substance behind it. | ||
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Elvis!
Germany396 Posts
I don't want us being in a hurry like last time. At the moment most people haven't posted a clear opinion and EoD is coming close! | ||
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Even though this is a newbie game I don't think someone would be this pointless as town. It also depends on the others. If someone makes a convincing case that is more convincing than my own one, I might, under extreme circumstances change. That would need crazy amounts of proof of breshke not being scum and the other person to be more scum. I really highly doubt this is possible to happen at all at this point. How we learned from Zen, we always have to be ready to reconsider, since 4/8 voted him scum. I'm sure this will not happen with Breshke. | ||
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