EPT##Vote: randombum
Aperture Mafia 2: Episode 2 - Page 197
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
##Vote: randombum | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
Lynch WOS. TLDR: WOS got a scum PM WOS played to his win condition We lynch WOS. Old ground: Feel Read: WOS's early D1 I can summarise as I did then Axle: I see you doing stuff. What I don't see is you trying to find stuff out? Scummy. + Show Spoiler [details] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19633082 If you read the posts of WOS's before that thats what I get the feel read off. it could easily be wrong.. but its the first point Anti town mindset at end of D1. (During the Vote Axle Plan) WOS's mindeset and intention is focussed on self preservation not what is good for town. Scummier. He is concerned about what voting for Geript will do to him so he keeps his vote where it is of no value. + Show Spoiler [Details] + Previously covered HereLink At the end of the Day, WOS's vote is parked on a not going to get lynched target Shiaopi Reason: WOS: " I was most confident of Shiao being scum at the time, ... " (This is a potentially 'good' sentiment during the day but at the end of the day in majority lynch townies cooperate to get the job done. WOS did not. WOS was Anti Town) WOS: "I don't trust the way this setup works and I do not want to allow other people to perform actions on me when I have control over someone's ability to do so." Concern for own welfare as a towny who doesnt want actions performed on him by geript. On its own that sentiment is kinda plausible as Town (even if more likely to be scum) However he also holds this view. WOS: "I am fine with AG's plan for the record." Although my plan now means many more townies might have actions peformed on them WOS is fine with it. How can you be fine with the plan if it involves other townies doing what you yourself regard to be bad risk. Very Anti Town I simply cant marry all three into single townies mind set about how the game was going. I can however easily marry it into the single mindset of a scum. It is the timely conjunction of three incongruous points of view that is the problem and what makes it clearly an anti town mindset. + Show Spoiler + Here is how I imagine it. Those of you who are 3rd party may even know.... The thing you have to remember is just how confusing all this must have been to Scum and 3rd party. 1 Townie(non scum...anyway) has been campaigning all day to get lynched.. Seemed good as far as it went. You had some scum votes (see flips) safely buried in the wagon dujor. And some other votes spread around. Everything is going swimmingly. You might even decide to AFK. Suddenly another probable townie start campaigning to get ALL the votes on Geript and few on himself WAT WAT WAT !!!! Scum jump in the QT and chat or just simply face palm and read Axles filter again... WAT! However actual townies are so thankful for someone saying something good will happen they all pile on Geript... They also don't have scum QT to go talk in. So yehah Town pile onto Geript. Predominantly Scum and 3rd party stuff up, and like WOS are left out in the cold, to either take a 'principled' stance on Shiaopi or all cluster together in the voting besides .... WAT. New ground: So far the case is WOS is anti town, or not pro town. How to differentiate Scum WOS from 3rd Party WOS. Shiapoi gets role blocked (prob by Alak) and dies after masoning WOS. Who knows about Shiaopi? and why is he blocked N2 and then killed N3. True WOS did announce in the thread he was masoned to Shiaopi but its only a masoning and no mention was made of the KP that only arrives after masoning 4 people anyway. Why RB a mason? If WOS is scum not just anti town 3P it suddenly becomes much more likely Shiaopi will get killed. One particularly good reason... WOS doesnt like talking to me :( In later days Shiaopi went so quiet he was becoming suspiciously yet still scum shot him.... over much more active townies. It needs a reason, and the Reason is WOS told the scum QT to nk him. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
It is now A vote to Lynch. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On September 09 2013 19:04 Clarity_nl wrote: I don't recall you mentioning randombum at any point even though he's been up for lynch twice now. What do you think of his lynch? I see you've been after his neck since like D2. I don't really think his shift from slam & hassy over to risen is as scummy as you seem to think. Closed casket is...weird (more below)..., so we go straight to the huge post at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19703910 in which key points are
You've characterized the above as a conveniently "timely rayn scumread". But picking rayn first checks out, and if you look closely theres a couple valid points before it starts sounding like a stretch. Could be a spot of OMGUS going on. This also has a solid dose of "omg why are these people voting me for no reason" so there is a pattern to the behavior. You say randombum's been up for lynch twice, but I don't if closed casket was actually a serious attempt to lynch ranbombum, because it was all like "scummy lurker yo lynch him" and then folks sheeped on and then people chickened out because of noflip or whatever. Like, the watcher reveal got a couple votes onto cheescake, and then herpderp: while we were agonizing over OO vs debears what was that thread doing? Pretty much spectating and backseat driving. Cheesecake finally shows up to talk about his n2, proposes nolynch, people jump off his wagon, there's a renewed push for randombum, and then nolynch anyway... if I were randombum I'd be pretty paranoid about that too, which could explain the OMGUS behavior. And that's basically the extent of the substantial stuff. Does all this make randombum scum? Possibly, but I'm not super convinced. Fairly inactive and not very useful, yes, but I don't think I'm qualified to judge on that. Not bad as a vig shot, quite like Coag. Lynch? Uncertain. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On September 09 2013 21:41 cakepie wrote: I see you've been after his neck since like D2. I don't really think his shift from slam & hassy over to risen is as scummy as you seem to think. Closed casket is...weird (more below)..., so we go straight to the huge post at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19703910 in which key points are
You've characterized the above as a conveniently "timely rayn scumread". But picking rayn first checks out, and if you look closely theres a couple valid points before it starts sounding like a stretch. Could be a spot of OMGUS going on. This also has a solid dose of "omg why are these people voting me for no reason" so there is a pattern to the behavior. You say randombum's been up for lynch twice, but I don't if closed casket was actually a serious attempt to lynch ranbombum, because it was all like "scummy lurker yo lynch him" and then folks sheeped on and then people chickened out because of noflip or whatever. Like, the watcher reveal got a couple votes onto cheescake, and then herpderp: while we were agonizing over OO vs debears what was that thread doing? Pretty much spectating and backseat driving. Cheesecake finally shows up to talk about his n2, proposes nolynch, people jump off his wagon, there's a renewed push for randombum, and then nolynch anyway... if I were randombum I'd be pretty paranoid about that too, which could explain the OMGUS behavior. And that's basically the extent of the substantial stuff. Does all this make randombum scum? Possibly, but I'm not super convinced. Fairly inactive and not very useful, yes, but I don't think I'm qualified to judge on that. Not bad as a vig shot, quite like Coag. Lynch? Uncertain. The thing with randombum is that his case on me hinges on stuff that has happened on D1, D2 and D3. Nowhere ever before this has he said he is suspicious of me. Why would you not do that because the information has been here forever? Later on he tries to reason this by saying "i couldn't get you lynched before". That is bullshit. CCM and this thread was contributing with each other. I tried to get HiroPro and CC to lynch randombum in other thread. randombum did nothing to get anyone lynched in his own thread, and justifies his actions regarding this thread by "i couldn't do anything because debears vs OO". While this is true it's not a reason to try to find scum in this thread especially if you don't do that in CCM and you are dead set on no-lynching. He did no scumhunting, has not done any scumhunting, and his reasons for not having me as suspect earlier do not add up. Besides this WoS goes into the same category. Suddenly now, when some people express suspicion on me he hops on the rayn train. This makes zero sense when he has never tried to question me in this game about anything but the pokemons. Now he accuses me on talking only about pokemons. What am i supposed to talk about when all the people are asking me about them? He says i have done none scumhunting. That's not true, i have not questioned people much, that is right. I have however hade clear stances on lynches (geript, geript, debears). I provided my reasoning for every one of my votes. I had a town read on vayne, so i called him town. Him flipping third faction has nothing to do with me being mafia, i don't hunt for third factions, i hunt mafia. If someone is not mafia to me they are probably town. My goal is to kill people who are not playing towards town wincon. Vayne seemed like doing so. Other that that, it's stupid to accuse me of talking about the setup and nothing more because every single lynch in this game has had to do only with people's roles and the usage of them. Him accusing me of it does not make any sense from town!pov. Stutters is one big questionmark. He has done some townie things like outing the checks and being like a spokesperson in BM after Onegu died. That's good, but if he is scum, what else can he do as he is outed as a BM member? His reveal on the other pokemon guy and the timing of it and then just fucking off is really weird and he should be placed under further investigation. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On September 09 2013 05:00 WaveofShadow wrote: As for scumhunting: ##Vote: raynpelikoneet If he was town he wouldn't be alive right now. He just wouldn't. He only sort of started playing the game a little while in; before that point he was solely focused on his role (and still is, somewhat). I want to offer some insight into why not. Even before rayn claimed he could not be NK'd unless all his pokemons were dead, it's viable to keep him alive for - try to farm him, kill his pokemon for powers - wifom value - thread chaos due to pokemon - set up mislynch of other pokemon characters (this one's a stretch and just me being paranoid) As long as rayn didn't pose a threat, that's an acceptable risk to take as scum, especially with that pokemon tunnel mode enabled. Sure being too obsessed about the pokemon isn't terribly helpful to the rest of us, but it's plausible for a player to become too invested into the pokemon trainer role. I mean, there was yugioh or something like that in another game before and I recall that was pretty tough to play, who's to say what rayn might be dealing with? I should reveal the context for this: On September 07 2013 12:12 cakepie wrote: Food for thought: we had a mortician. I was wondering: + Show Spoiler [speculation] + What was cheescake up to N2? Does alakascum necessarily entail cheesecake must be town? Are there any circumstances in which more than one scum visit a target? Personality 2 (looked at the spreadsheet due to the sleeper cell business in that game that HiroPro helpfully mentioned) had a death framer role. Could Kita's mortician-type role have been more than just tailored for VE? Keep in mind this was before I was able to catch up with cheescake again about N2. Just putting it out there in case anyone wonders what I was getting up to. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
You guys get the tl;dr version. Cakepie I'm curious. First of, did you think the randombum was serious at the time and you realized it wasn't when people started talking about nolynching, or did you always think it wasn't serious? Secondly, is this the first time you've read up on randombum, seeing as you said you wanted to get it right and you took your time? Also, since you don't seem confident in a randombum lynch, who would you lynch instead, and why haven't you pushed the lynch of that person yet? About WoS... He's kinda been a question mark but he definitely hasn't pushed a scum agenda and I can't help but relate to him being busy irl, which I very much doubt he is lying about. I was surprised that when I opened his filter that it was 11 pages though, it doesn't feel like WoS has had much of an impact in this game past day 1. The one thing that really stood out to me was this post in response to Axle: On September 09 2013 04:24 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright finally back. Axle, I know how you play and I am in no mood to be tunneled into infinity by you if I don't answer your questions exactly the way you want them. I'm telling you right now I'll answer your shit once, and if it's not how you like it, too bad. I've been out of this game for too long and I'd really like to get back into it, and defending myself from shit that I'm honestly going to have to look into my own fucking filter to find answers to because it was like 2 weeks ago is not scumhunting. Is there some sort of history here? Because I don't feel Axle has tunneled anyone this game. In fact, Axle has been really slow to draw conclusions which I actually give him towncred for. He seems willing to listen to arguments and tries to make slow deliberate decisions. So where is WoS coming from, when it comes to this post, if anyone can answer that? | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
First: I learned Cakepie was Prof Oats last night. He got role copped last night by Yi. No grand conspiracy. Saying what I did was to see reactions. Second: It seems like a near certainty scum have an insider in BM so revealing this will only help since I expect to die anyway tomorrow night. This is based on Risen being shot. I announced in BM that I was attempting to check Risen immediately after his claim to verify my sanity. Coupled with another thing I can't reveal without giving away the mechanic it seems pretty likely there is a scum. I am Doctor Kliner. I'm a list based cop with two conditional OTU checks in addition to the normal one dictated by list positions. I haven't used either OTU yet, but won't say more on that until they're burned because I don't want scum to plan around it. Obviously I'm asking for protection tonight (without an attached RB)to at least use my most powerful check. If I'm perm-RBd now it still frees others to use their roles. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Even though I did and answered basically everything you wanted---you're so easily predictable, you do this every game to me. No matter what I give you, you still call me scum. Anyway go ahead, but I'm not scum, this I promise you. I assume we're not going to hear back from Stutters before the day is out---he has popped in and out with info from BM QT and done nothing else---as far as people who are 'not promoting a town agenda' I could name quite a few others this game. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On September 09 2013 22:20 Stutters695 wrote: I'll be here on and off all day trying to figure out who I want lynched so I can answer questions/clear stuff up. First: I learned Cakepie was Prof Oats last night. He got role copped last night by Yi. No grand conspiracy. Saying what I did was to see reactions. Second: It seems like a near certainty scum have an insider in BM so revealing this will only help since I expect to die anyway tomorrow night. This is based on Risen being shot. I announced in BM that I was attempting to check Risen immediately after his claim to verify my sanity. Coupled with another thing I can't reveal without giving away the mechanic it seems pretty likely there is a scum. I am Doctor Kliner. I'm a list based cop with two conditional OTU checks in addition to the normal one dictated by list positions. I haven't used either OTU yet, but won't say more on that until they're burned because I don't want scum to plan around it. Obviously I'm asking for protection tonight (without an attached RB)to at least use my most powerful check. If I'm perm-RBd now it still frees others to use their roles. ? Also do you believe that despite cakepie having a pokemon role that he's not the other pokemon dude? You seemed pretty certain in your earlier post. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Alright fucking finally, something to go on. ##Unvote | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
There is one caveat see below. He mentions ShiaoPis death here Dont read the next WOS post YET. The next post here might seem aggressive uncooperative + Show Spoiler + or (just fine if you feel the same?) If you try to interpret that post of his READ the spoiler below this. (Caveat) It could easily be interpreted as blatant attempt to have an escape route if the conversation goes wrong. If I you havent read the games I played with WOS it might seem waaaaaaay out of the blue. + Show Spoiler [our playing history] + We played in EGO where i was scum tunnelled him aggressively like crazy and got myself ROFL Lynched D1. We played in I Swear 2, again (before he outed his smurf) I was tunnelling him as a plan (it just seems to be a thing) that time a question was left hanging and I came back to it later. This might feel deja vu as scum or town to him. That time I didn't get either of us lynched. The amount of attitude in the WOS post surprised me, perhaps I was wishful thinking it. He does however say "I've been out of this game for too long and I'd really like to get back into it," You might want to see in the following posts, if that is what he does or just says he wants to do. In case you are wondering this is also the reason for the softly softly. And despite what you can make of our conversation those questions and answers (well some of them) were important to me finally deciding to actually go for this lynch today. I expect why will become more apparent as the day wears on. The conversation starts here and ends here. A question I ask myself about that exchange is what was WOS purpose and intent? Is it "I've been out of this game for too long and I'd really like to get back into it," + Show Spoiler + In between answering my questions this post get put in Vote Rayn 6 mins after previous post to me... doesn't really seem all that long to make a considered judgement. Agrees would lynch random bujm I min afetr previous post. Rayn observes at this point "yeah WoS is scum." I kind of agree those posts don't feel right. We then get long miscommunication post on Geript. I think its my fault I got misinterpreted. Some buddying "At least Axle is trying to get a read on me. What have you(to rayn) got? Bring it. This post nearly has me... I can just about see a towny might have said fuck it, to his win con and just let curiosity play itself out... Town BH may have done that a bit with his own life when he went along with my plan. + Show Spoiler + I hope he worked out in this game I couldn't reasonably be gaming such a scheme While just maybe a towny thought like that, any scum or 3P would in heart beat. Thus while its possible that a towny might think like that it is less likely and hence alignment indicative. Cases are not about 100% scum tells cases like this one are about wine that is harder to drink. The more I read WOS's filter the harder it is for me to believe he is playing for town. As a contrast, Consider Towny Shiaopi... Who told a possible scum about his powers, I expect in full knowledge he might get nk'd for it, but knowing it would leave a trail that could lead back to scum. Town take risks with their own lives town has player lives to spare. In a scum team every player life is precious. This is one of the asymmetries that lets me see a scum mindset. WOS values his life more than seems appropriate for a towny WOS. In this post WOS breaks for me something that is cardinal Rule... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19703054 If a probable towny appears to be doing something especially getting a read on me, I try to do nothing I can to interfere. Axle what do you think of Rayn? (BTW the answer is nothing while i am talking to WOS.) it goes on for a while And after I leave that happens to be about when WOS has done enough 'scum hunting...' and has a break. Lynch WOS today | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Are you scum, Axle? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
if I was scum, why in all that is holy would I bother returning to this thread and draw attention to myself when I could have coasted through the rest of this game? (like VE) Whether or not you think I've been doing a good job since I've come back or have proper motivations or 'agendas' that point alone should remain clear. It would be fucking STUPID. | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On September 09 2013 22:11 Clarity_nl wrote: Cakepie I'm curious. First of, did you think the randombum was serious at the time and you realized it wasn't when people started talking about nolynching, or did you always think it wasn't serious? Secondly, is this the first time you've read up on randombum, seeing as you said you wanted to get it right and you took your time? 1. I assume you mean "the randombum wagon" -- I didn't think it was very serious at all. Cheesecake was the only one to have an actual case. No one tried to sell any reasoning to anyone else. I think maybe only Hiro actually fingered randombum in this thread before they went over to casket? 2. Yes, randombum really only popped onto my radar around when the pokemon stuff blew up. On September 09 2013 22:11 Clarity_nl wrote: Also, since you don't seem confident in a randombum lynch, who would you lynch instead, and why haven't you pushed the lynch of that person yet? I've been warming up to the idea of WoS, because of some of the things Axle already brought up, the MasterYi hunting, and you can see I really didn't like this most recent bit of behavior. I don't see BM hunting as a town move. But uh looks like a lot of ninja going on here. I've been waiting to hear from stutters or austin (holds some important cards, conspicuously still absent after 38+ hours...) Let me read this new stuff and see if I need to rethink anything. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On September 09 2013 22:36 cakepie wrote: 1. I assume you mean "the randombum wagon" -- I didn't think it was very serious at all. Cheesecake was the only one to have an actual case. No one tried to sell any reasoning to anyone else. I think maybe only Hiro actually fingered randombum in this thread before they went over to casket? 2. Yes, randombum really only popped onto my radar around when the pokemon stuff blew up. I've been warming up to the idea of WoS, because of some of the things Axle already brought up, the MasterYi hunting, and you can see I really didn't like this most recent bit of behavior. I don't see BM hunting as a town move. But uh looks like a lot of ninja going on here. I've been waiting to hear from stutters or austin (holds some important cards, conspicuously still absent after 38+ hours...) Let me read this new stuff and see if I need to rethink anything. BM hunting can easily be a town move. Koshi was town and he could only win with town if BM were dead. I guess I'll do a more indepth read on WoS though. WoS, could you explain the post of yours that I quoted about Axle tunneling? | ||
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cakepie
985 Posts
On September 09 2013 22:20 Stutters695 wrote: two conditional OTU checks sorry, what's "OTU"? | ||
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