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slOosh
3291 Posts
Describe to me how the votes on me are apart from anything mechanic? VE has been dicking around the whole game and he throws out his main scum read despite having much conviction in it, just to go with the flow. When have you seen a town VisceraEyes cede so easily? You haven't because he doesn't exist. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
VE always posts like that and i never said i thought he was scum, your points sucked so i thought i should point it out. He really wants to kill Vayne. this is BS He asks Rayn a question. -SO?? Asks VE a question. -SO?? Now he wants to lynch me but wants to delay the reasons. - I would just rather play 400 days since i am not all that invested in this game. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
So instead let's waste our Day 1 discussion on Malongo, the guy who isn't even defending himself? Cops/vigs/trackers/watchers/etc should take care of scummy lurkers. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:14 layabout wrote: gumshoe i picked out the point which you were being dickish to me over, cus you know, i dont like that VE always posts like that and i never said i thought he was scum, your points sucked so i thought i should point it out. Why are you using your time to talk about irrelevant issues? Thoughts on me / VE or follow up on your case on Vivax now | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On July 17 2013 08:32 DoctorHelvetica wrote: DESPITE THIS - I think it's interesting that you chose to attack me after I defended you and the way you did is making me lean that you are town and this is just a bad misunderstanding, actually. Or I did. But your phrasing is odd in your latest post. It makes it seem like the fact that I backed off AT ALL is scummy to you. Why? Should you always tunnel the first person you vote for 100% of the time? Should you ignore a persons defense under every circumstance? If FT Is town, he knows he is town and he perceives his posts likely to be very townie. If FT defends himself from Player X who then says "ah, the way you defended yourself indicates you're town" why would FT then turn around to say "How suspicious that you think I'm town, you must be scum". If FT truly was town, wouldn't he accept that argument? If Player X (Me in this case) decides his defense is town-indicative (assuming FT is town) then player x is CORRECT and FT should feel as though his argument/defense was a success. Implying that it is scummy to defend you implies INHERENT GUILT. Let me reference my argument against Promethelax in LX which was almost proof that he was scum: If FT is town then I was CORRECT to back off of him considering he put in the effort to defend himself, there can't possibly be anything scummy about that INHERENTLY but in his latest post he's not even referencing the context of my change of heart he's calling it scummy IN and OF itself. ^ a more succinct way of putting it. I'll wait for FT's explanation of this, because there is another aspect to his attack on me that differs from what Promethelax did although it's getting closer and closer to Prom's confirmed scum arguments so I'll just have to wait. He isn't attacking you because you backed off. He is attacking you for the "lie" about reading my post. Your switching off him is an explanation of why you could be scum do to that. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
VE just made a big post and I believe he proved that he is willing to keep doing that in future days. Malongo isn't doing anything and I am afraid he might up being a lurker for the rest of this game. Or keep doing these stupid posts. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:30 Koshi wrote: Ok, so this vote is incredible close and I am going to bed in 40 minutes. My targets are VE and Malongo. IF there is nothing solid I think I am going to vote Malongo so that everything can happen with the last votes. VE just made a big post and I believe he proved that he is willing to keep doing that in future days. Malongo isn't doing anything and I am afraid he might up being a lurker for the rest of this game. Or keep doing these stupid posts. What has VE accomplished with his big post? He drops his main scum read that he has had all day, to follow general thread sentiment. How is his big post in any means a useful contribution? | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
With that, I'm gone. | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 17 2013 23:55 marvellosity wrote: Typical I replace in for someone easy to read. I have 15 posts total including this waste of a post, so 14 after. I've not been reading at all yet, so proper posts will come later this evening when I've had time to read and digest. One post that I did read was FirmTofu's large post right at the start of the game. I'm fairly sure Firm did in fact lie at least once as town in his last newbie game, and defended his actions repeatedly in the obsQT of that game. I'm curious to know why the sudden change of heart about not lying as town. Hi marv, great to have you! My views on lying are contingent upon the setup. As this is a closed setup, there are are greater amount of variables that we need to account for. Thus, lying becomes far too problematic to deal with as town. On July 18 2013 04:19 gumshoe wrote: Tofu: We really need to hear about someone other than Dh, what do you think of hapa? Hapa/Marv is completely null to me. There have been few posts to look at, and none of them were alignment indicative. gumshoe, I'd like to know why you're discreetly voting me in the voting thread. I will be voting VE. He hasn't said anything to convince me that he isn't scum and many people share my sentiment of him. He is much more likely to get lynched than DrH and is a far better lynch than slOosh. ##Unvote:DrH ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:35 slOosh wrote: What has VE accomplished with his big post? He drops his main scum read that he has had all day, to follow general thread sentiment. How is his big post in any means a useful contribution? Nothing, but at least he posted something. What has Malongo done? Who will be easier to read, the guy that posts or the guy that doesn't post. I need a good reason not to vote Malongo. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
It's my policy never to analyze what VisceraEyes is doing. No matter what his role is - I will always come to the conclusion that VE is scum. Every single game I have read (and I have blind read several of his games I have not played with him in) I have come to the conclusion that he is 100% scum without any doubt. My opinion on VE is worthless. I have expressed this sentiment in several games (in which I am town in all of them). So sloOsh is in the hotseat. Fine. I'll look at him in a moment, but I'm not willing to drop it just because town sentiment has changed a little bit. I don't think FirmTofu is scum. Continuously choosing to attract attention by engaging with DrH seems really difficult for fresh off newbie games-scum to pull off. No one cares or should care about your conspiracy theory. I checked out the game and I think you have confirmation bias. His first post in Nuclear Winter is ~20 hours into the day, and his mega post is ~32 hours into the day, opposed to less than an hour in this game. I read maybe half of D1 in NWM, and the most he is called out for is inactivity. You're correct. I rescind my meta argument against FirmTofu because I lost sight of the context. Unlike NWM, he is under direct pressure from me in this game which will of course cause him to act differently. However, I think a few things are important. In NWM, he does a good job sticking to the point. He chooses to come swinging out of the gate with a "megapost" which contains absolutely no useful information. I define useful information as anything that will lead to the lynching of scum. Setup analysis is fine Day 1 because it generates discussion -> discussion leads to finding scum. However there is a particular sort of setup analysis/fluff post that comes out Day 1 that is troubling. That is the sort of post that is designed to portray the poster in the towniest light possible without being actually constructive. Rather than reading into the sort of things being said, it's important to look at the tone. In his attacks on me, he has continually misrepresented/twisted my positions/actions and jumped to conclusions rather quickly. FirmTofu 1. FirmTofu stated that sloOsh was making a consolidated effort to prevent people from PMing. This is false. sloOsh states that people who do not know how to mason constructively, should not do it at all. I do not agree with this point, but it is not a "consolidated effort". It is just sloOsh's position on how PMs should be utilized in a game. I would not be surprised if this is an opinion sloOsh had coming into the game, before he received his alignment. Arguing about this particular statement by sloOsh is absurd. 2. FirmTofu states that by claiming the above point, I am thereby giving a strong townread on sloOsh. Ridiculous. I said what sloOsh said didn't mean anything at all. Later in that post I stated "What sloOsh is doing is townier than what you're doing", directed at FirmTofu. This is not the same as claiming I have a strong townread on sloOsh. FirmTofu jumps illogically at the bait - MEANING he is looking for reasons to attack me rather than finding them naturally. sloOsh at that point, at least had offered some advice on how to PM constructively. FirmTofu had only been talking about the traitor role up until that point. 3. FirmTofu isn't making a real effort to start a bandwagon on me NOR is he posting cases in a constructive manner. Read FirmTofu's first case on me. It's very reactive, filled with misunderstandings and irrelevant information and thoughts on other happenings/players. A strong characteristic of his play in NWM is the surgical manner in which he approachs his scumreads. A huge majority of the content in his cases is filled with quotes from the accused player, he dedicates his entire post to this approach. Rather, he is being far more vague, accusing me of lying without specifying clearly and constructively what my lie is. Imagine you are town and I am scum in this game. You caught me in (apparently) a very obvious lie. What do you do? There is only one answer. Bring down the hammer of justice. There is no way a town FirmTofu isn't trying very hard to get me lynched right now, unless he is scum. I still don't even know what he is accusing me of lying about, which means he is doing a very unconvincing job of demonstrating what exactly I'm doing wrong. His cases in NWN were way more logical than this and I refuse to believe he simply became much much worse as a town player over the course of a week or so. I already explained why I originally stopped attacking FirmTofu and WHY I changed my mind. When I said I thought FirmTofu was town - this was related to him defending the pressure that was on him early in the game (related to his post about the traitor and nothing else). This occurred BEFORE he made a post calling me out for not attacking sloOsh and then both misrepresenting sloOsh AND myself. There is another window of time here that is critical but I need to reconsult filters to make sure I'm not remembering things wrong. <- If this is my "so called lie", then he's full of shit. When he told me that it was suspicious for not attacking sloOsh for discouraging PMing when I had criticized VayneAuthority for that, I told him "I didn't read sloOsh's post." FT claimed I was probably lying. However, I have no way to prove/argue this otherwise. There is nothing I can point to that would somehow prove I did or didn't read sloOsh's post at the time. But this is a shit argument. Regardless of the fact that they were saying completely different things about the PM mechanics at the time, this is a classic mafia tactic. Someone attacks the lurker who is on your team? Ask them why they're ignoring lurker Y and call them scum! These are shit arguments. No one has the diligence to pressure every player in the game at the same time. Yeah but why would a newbie scum like FT even argue with you? Why not? Why would a scum FirmTofu be particularly afraid of me? I can think of several games in where I had drawn out arguments with scum, newer scum, every type of scum. That's more WIFOM than a meta argument. Some wine is easier to drink. In Arkham City Mafia: scum were assigned specifically to attack/annoy me because Radfield knew my style of play. I tend to get either tunnel-vision in these situations, or lose confidence and become ineffective for the rest of the game. If you start to think of the games in these terms, town already lost. Do yourself a favor and google "no true scotsman". Based on this information I'm inclined to believe that sloOsh is the mafia bandwagon. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
PS: I'm America | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + i am gonna go watch the apprentice final | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:42 Koshi wrote: Nothing, but at least he posted something. What has Malongo done? Who will be easier to read, the guy that posts or the guy that doesn't post. I need a good reason not to vote Malongo. My point is that VE is easier to read right now because he posted, but the post had no actual content. So what's worse, the guy who posted but his post has no content, or the guy who doesn't post? We have blue roles that help take care of people like Malongo, and it would be a waste to use a lynch on a lurker (because scum could easily deflect it and no one is forced to take a meaningful stance on a lurker lynch). | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:43 VisceraEyes wrote: 16/15 PS: I'm America It's important to me that you post the logs you have with sloOsh, and I would imagine that's important to everyone else as well. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Original Message From slOosh: Since you conveniently ran out of posts, let's do this in PMs and I'll quote our dialogue. Describe to me how the votes on me are apart from anything mechanic? Why are you dropping your scumread on Malongo despite your grand certainty on it? Original Message From slOosh: Hrmm ... What do you think of layabout's stance on PM usage? Original Message From VisceraEyes: No he was talking about MZ. I misread that and just never clarified it. I'll say as much in thread because it's the truth if you want, but he's not even paying any attention to the game and hasn't mentioned it so it's meh. I just want him to die. He's not doing anything. I desire no thread presence this game because I'm trying something new this game. We'll see how it goes. I'm under 50% of my allotted posts already. I'm not sure what more you expect of me anyway XD Original Message From slOosh: What's going on VE? I can see you have thoughts but you have no desire for any thread presence. Y'know. Like Carnival Cruise. Malongo didn't even mention me or is that just another ploy? | ||
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FirmTofu
United States1956 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:42 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm fairly certain layabout is scum in this game, either that or a blue role playing really scared. It's my policy never to analyze what VisceraEyes is doing. No matter what his role is - I will always come to the conclusion that VE is scum. Every single game I have read (and I have blind read several of his games I have not played with him in) I have come to the conclusion that he is 100% scum without any doubt. My opinion on VE is worthless. I have expressed this sentiment in several games (in which I am town in all of them). So sloOsh is in the hotseat. Fine. I'll look at him in a moment, but I'm not willing to drop it just because town sentiment has changed a little bit. No one cares or should care about your conspiracy theory. You're correct. I rescind my meta argument against FirmTofu because I lost sight of the context. Unlike NWM, he is under direct pressure from me in this game which will of course cause him to act differently. However, I think a few things are important. In NWM, he does a good job sticking to the point. He chooses to come swinging out of the gate with a "megapost" which contains absolutely no useful information. I define useful information as anything that will lead to the lynching of scum. Setup analysis is fine Day 1 because it generates discussion -> discussion leads to finding scum. However there is a particular sort of setup analysis/fluff post that comes out Day 1 that is troubling. That is the sort of post that is designed to portray the poster in the towniest light possible without being actually constructive. Rather than reading into the sort of things being said, it's important to look at the tone. In his attacks on me, he has continually misrepresented/twisted my positions/actions and jumped to conclusions rather quickly. FirmTofu 1. FirmTofu stated that sloOsh was making a consolidated effort to prevent people from PMing. This is false. sloOsh states that people who do not know how to mason constructively, should not do it at all. I do not agree with this point, but it is not a "consolidated effort". It is just sloOsh's position on how PMs should be utilized in a game. I would not be surprised if this is an opinion sloOsh had coming into the game, before he received his alignment. Arguing about this particular statement by sloOsh is absurd. 2. FirmTofu states that by claiming the above point, I am thereby giving a strong townread on sloOsh. Ridiculous. I said what sloOsh said didn't mean anything at all. Later in that post I stated "What sloOsh is doing is townier than what you're doing", directed at FirmTofu. This is not the same as claiming I have a strong townread on sloOsh. FirmTofu jumps illogically at the bait - MEANING he is looking for reasons to attack me rather than finding them naturally. sloOsh at that point, at least had offered some advice on how to PM constructively. FirmTofu had only been talking about the traitor role up until that point. 3. FirmTofu isn't making a real effort to start a bandwagon on me NOR is he posting cases in a constructive manner. Read FirmTofu's first case on me. It's very reactive, filled with misunderstandings and irrelevant information and thoughts on other happenings/players. A strong characteristic of his play in NWM is the surgical manner in which he approachs his scumreads. A huge majority of the content in his cases is filled with quotes from the accused player, he dedicates his entire post to this approach. Rather, he is being far more vague, accusing me of lying without specifying clearly and constructively what my lie is. Imagine you are town and I am scum in this game. You caught me in (apparently) a very obvious lie. What do you do? There is only one answer. Bring down the hammer of justice. There is no way a town FirmTofu isn't trying very hard to get me lynched right now, unless he is scum. I still don't even know what he is accusing me of lying about, which means he is doing a very unconvincing job of demonstrating what exactly I'm doing wrong. His cases in NWN were way more logical than this and I refuse to believe he simply became much much worse as a town player over the course of a week or so. I already explained why I originally stopped attacking FirmTofu and WHY I changed my mind. When I said I thought FirmTofu was town - this was related to him defending the pressure that was on him early in the game (related to his post about the traitor and nothing else). This occurred BEFORE he made a post calling me out for not attacking sloOsh and then both misrepresenting sloOsh AND myself. There is another window of time here that is critical but I need to reconsult filters to make sure I'm not remembering things wrong. <- If this is my "so called lie", then he's full of shit. When he told me that it was suspicious for not attacking sloOsh for discouraging PMing when I had criticized VayneAuthority for that, I told him "I didn't read sloOsh's post." FT claimed I was probably lying. However, I have no way to prove/argue this otherwise. There is nothing I can point to that would somehow prove I did or didn't read sloOsh's post at the time. But this is a shit argument. Regardless of the fact that they were saying completely different things about the PM mechanics at the time, this is a classic mafia tactic. Someone attacks the lurker who is on your team? Ask them why they're ignoring lurker Y and call them scum! These are shit arguments. No one has the diligence to pressure every player in the game at the same time. Yeah but why would a newbie scum like FT even argue with you? Why not? Why would a scum FirmTofu be particularly afraid of me? I can think of several games in where I had drawn out arguments with scum, newer scum, every type of scum. That's more WIFOM than a meta argument. Some wine is easier to drink. In Arkham City Mafia: scum were assigned specifically to attack/annoy me because Radfield knew my style of play. I tend to get either tunnel-vision in these situations, or lose confidence and become ineffective for the rest of the game. If you start to think of the games in these terms, town already lost. Do yourself a favor and google "no true scotsman". Based on this information I'm inclined to believe that sloOsh is the mafia bandwagon. DrH, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for from you. I wanted you to deconstruct my posts and point out exactly was scummy. These points are exactly what I would expect from a town member. When you posted your meta argument, I had to continue pursuing you because you didn't form a case on me based on information gathered within this game. I see meta as an easy cop-out that scum use to form cases on people to discredit them. Although you refused to answer the questions that I have asked you repeatedly and have explicitly stated in numerous posts(there is no ambiguity as to where I believe you lied), I am willing to move you from my list of scum to my list of null reads based on this post alone. Part of my reasoning is that you have slOosh listed as a town read, which I believe is how town would look at slOosh and part of it is because you have deconstructed and analyzed my posts exactly how someone would form a town PoV. Had you made something like this earlier, I would have dropped my case on you immediately. You may continue to pursue me, but consider your own confirmation bias creeping in. Take a step back and analyze my actions from a town perspective, just as I did yours. | ||
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Vivax
21991 Posts
By the way, I fully endorse an ace lynch, that's exactly how I would see him playing scum in the early stages of such a big game. Marked with an # means they're from me. 1: + Show Spoiler + Date: 7/17/13 02:30 You're #1 of 2. What's funny about your posting style is that Chezinu is actually smurfing in this game. I agree with you about DocH. What I did was a reaction test, I wanted to see what people had to say about me suspecting DocH. I think the most interesting reaction was from Vayne - no reaction whatsoever, in spite of being under direct attack from the person I claimed to be suspicious of. I'm not sure what to make of kholly. He seems to be ignoring everyone but DocH atm which makes it hard to draw conclusions. Oatsmaster is being derpy but I think he's town....tentatively. He's too quick to call anyone who disagrees with him scum to be scum imo. Kush on the other hand...I have a serious problem with the lack of Kush derp. As town he's not one to be told how much to post, much like Oats, and he'd be bucking the restriction just as Oats is doing. Except, unlike Oats, Kush had nothing to add to the game in the early stages...not even a play accusation. I think Kush might be scum...but I'm waiting on actual content to bring it to the thread. Hapa/Yamato are probably town...but their absence is odd. They're either PMing exclusively or they're just watching and waiting...which frankly is out of character for both of them, but I could just as easily see them changing their play due to the setup as town. I was hoping at least one of them would PM me, but alas I'm not as important as most. Ultimately, I could see one of them being scum, but not both, but I think for now that both are town. I don't see what everyone else seems to see regarding slOosh. Those are my thoughts so far. I've read everything and if I didn't mention something you wanted me to mention, let me know. I'm just kinda observing for the time being because I'll blow my posts if I get into a shouting match with Oats (which is the inevitable conclusion of me coming back into the thread XD) #1: 7/17/13 04:22 + Show Spoiler + It's cool you're masoning me, you're my first PM contact so far. I'm currently saving my ability up for a possibly good moment. I'm thinking about masoning kush to get a better read on him, my experiences in Hydra II with him weren't all that bad, in our qt, I'm somewhat confident one can push him to usefulness and readability but one needs to incentivize him. Before I proceed with more actions in the thread I prefer to wait until it's likely that every scum has posted, barring any interesting developments. We can't exclude the risk that someone simply forgot about the game given how long it took to take off. I can actually buy your explanation for having faked your play so far, simply cause you'd likely be more capable than that as scum. This isn't valid on its own, but given your explanation and early contact I think it's compatible with that version. I still have to evaluate you properly. I'm interested into knowing about: - Your choice of masoning me. - Why you don't mention S & B. In the specifics, as I should already have mentioned, his post looks forced, lengthy. He touches on a variety of topics showing a certain intent of stretching the amount of content he writes about them. Especially the "noob player" one hit me as scummy. I see no motivation to write about that stuff unless you look specifically for things to talk about with the sole purpose of talking about something. Add his early apologies for inactivity to it as a cherry on top. In a game where many hadn't posted at the time your own inactivity shouldn't be a huge concern for you, it is a nice strategy for scum to adopt though (albeit being often ineffective), but since mostly it comes at no cost, there is no harm in scum trying to gain leeway by claiming to be busy. I actually wish to win you for the S & B cause, so it would be nice if you could deliver me an own analysis of his contributions, or find any points you agree/disagree with. ______________________________________________________________________________________ Moving on to your reads: Vayne: I'm not sure what to make of him myself. There's something else about him other than what I have mentioned, but I would like to better understand what you think makes his non-reaction scummy. Kholly: Kinda shit choice (=DrH) for a scumread, but seems quite bold. Townie points. Kush: Yeah, but man, it's kush, expect nothing and everything. If I PM him and drag him into a chat I'll probably be able to get a decent read on him. Oats: He knows how he has to act to appear town...but probably can only act like that in earlygame. I'll be able to give a better judgment as time progresses. I'm confident I can do that. Of Hapa and Yamato I'd be at most concerned of Hapa, less of yamato, but I can only judge them by a first impression so far and prefer to keep myself back with a judgment so far. I know yamato has a high opinion of Hapa and hence it's likely they're masoned imo. SlOosh. Well, as you wrote the message I didn't see anything excessively scummy, but with his comeback I see stuff that is somewhat scummy. I think you wrote the PM before he wrote this [July 17 2013 03:53] reply, so I'd like an updated opinion on him based on that, and if you think what I think. #1 addendum 7/17/13 16:04 Can you explain what you found odd about Vayne in your first PM please? 2: + Show Spoiler + Re: SnB I'm not sure how I feel about SnB - I want to see more from him. That's the short version. He COULD be scum, but I don't think there's enough to condemn him in this thread yet. I think your reasoning feels like nitpicking his playstyle rather than observing actual scummy behavior. I'd like your thoughts on Malongo. He's been ignored by several players who should know better imo and I find that quite disconcerting. As I said in thread, he's obviously reading the thread (he tried to donate posts to DocH) yet he's not sharing any reads publicly and he's really just floating in the background of the game. This is exactly the sort of play I expect from scum in this game. kholly is playing in a similar manner, but again as I said in the thread, he's at least giving an opinion and taking a stance. I had a kind of knee-jerk reaction to Wiggles post because I didn't like his conclusions, but he's still kinda leaning scum to me. He's my weakest read by far though...I'm not interested in lynching him today anymore looking over the thread. I chose to mason you because I figured in PMs you wouldn't be roleplaying the way you did in thread so I wanted an avenue to read you without the veil of roleplaying. Get actual opinions rather than my own interpretations of what they might be...that sort of thing. #3 with reply 7/18/13 04:44 + Show Spoiler + Original Message From VisceraEyes: I'm not as engaged as I need to be. I'm going to put aside time for this soon. XD Original Message From Vivax: VE, there are a lot who would like to see you dead, what do you think are you doing wrong? Also, pretty funny how you told Oats to go screw himself lol. 3 addendum from VE: Date: 7/18/13 04:45 As a funny aside, I now only have one post left with which to state my case against Malongo and alleviate suspicion on me. Wish me luck. There are some more recent ones, but they're secondary for the moment, will post if necessary. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ I'd lynch SlOosh, ace layabout and S & B before VE pretty much, although I need to do a reread on SlOosh still, as announced. Kush voted SlOosh btw. Layabout doesn't remember what he wanted to do with his lynch targets, usually a sign of not-caring. IN NESTED QUOTE: On July 18 2013 06:14 layabout wrote: gumshoe i picked out the point which you were being dickish to me over, cus you know, i dont like that VE always posts like that and i never said i thought he was scum, your points sucked so i thought i should point it out. On July 17 2013 06:00 layabout wrote: I really want to kill vayne. Why sign up to a pm game if you are not going to use them? They benefit town the vast majority of the time. | ||
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