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On April 08 2013 01:38 Vivax wrote:
It's weird, decon. Why would you expect scum to casually jump on a bus wagon against a buddy trying to look like they're not doing so? I actually thought that's what scum would attempt against townies, not scum.
Your reason for finding me scummy isn't really consistent with you finding S & B scummy. Cause in that mindset, I don't think you would fear scum sneaking onto the bandwagon like you thought I was.
You are completely missing the point.
Question. If you had read the thread completely, and knew S+B was already under strong suspicion, would you have posted this:
On April 07 2013 23:35 Vivax wrote:
Anyone else finding S & B scummy?
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Vivax is missing the point, but he's not new and I wouldn't attribute that post to him being scummy. Yes, it shows that he's not following his read throughout the thread there, but it's not like scumVivax should be popping into thread and dropping that question without reading through to see what's happened.
gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke?
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On April 08 2013 02:01 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax is missing the point, but he's not new and I wouldn't attribute that post to him being scummy. Yes, it shows that he's not following his read throughout the thread there, but it's not like scumVivax should be popping into thread and dropping that question without reading through to see what's happened.
gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke?
The reason that post stood out is that it was completely at odds with his posting style up to that point. I just wanted to know if he posted it without reading the thread, and he admitted that he did. Overall its a null read to me as I've never played with him before so I don't know what his meta is. If he admitted posting it knowing S+B was under suspicion, THAT would have been much more of a red flag. I just wanted clarification.
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On April 08 2013 01:34 Oatsmaster wrote:
VE what do you think of artanis and Palmar's insistance that you arent town?
Is this two separate questions?
I'm in the middle of going over gonzaw's case on Artanis, I had kinda a town read on Artanis based on his case on geript, but that's probably because I'm irrational about geript thinking I'm scum for inactivity and I have a bad habit of just taking large posts as decent contributions without really looking at them 
Palmar thinks I'm not town like every game I play with him and he's afraid to push lynches these days anyway...not so much concerned about Palmar "insisting" I'm not town.
The case against Shelvocke is another I feel like I can get behind, but again, I'm afraid I like it because he thinks I'm scum and would like to hear other opinions on him. His first post against me (^ Mafia) just seemed like a weak +1 to thread sentiment, and he has done virtually nothing besides.
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Austin I'm not missing the point at all. Decon is a good boy, he can answer for himself thanks.
He said:
On April 08 2013 01:34 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 01:28 Vivax wrote:
Deconduo I have a question.
Since you have S & B as scumread, why did you look so skeptical towards my question? Would expect you to pop in and say: "Yeah I think he's totes scum too, vote him cause bsbsbsb, go read my case and shit, you're on the right track mate".
Instead you didn't seem to happy about someone actually liking your own scumread, and even would have FOUND IT SCUMMY if I had been trying to start a bandwagon on him.
What gives? I have no problem with you finding S+B scummy. The problem is in the way you phrased your post. 'Does anyone else find S+B scummy?' If you had been reading the thread, or looked at the voting thread you would KNOW this is the case. You are then essentially coming along and saying ' I want to lynch S+B, but lets make it look like I'm not jumping on the bandwagon.' Therefore: 1. You didn't read the thread OR 2. You are doing something incredibly scummy. You came back and verified that it was the first case, so I'm happy for now.
To which I replied:
It's weird, decon. Why would you expect scum to casually jump on a bus wagon against a buddy trying to look like they're not doing so? I actually thought that's what scum would attempt against townies, not scum.
Your reason for finding me scummy isn't really consistent with you finding S & B scummy. Cause in that mindset, I don't think you would fear scum sneaking onto the bandwagon like you thought I was.
He didn't just want to know "if I read the thread", he said exactly this. What I did doesn't play a role, it's in contrast to that certain mindset.
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VE, what is your current read on me and why?
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Eh, snb looks like the best lynch atm.
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On April 08 2013 02:31 Vivax wrote:
Austin I'm not missing the point at all. Decon is a good boy, he can answer for himself thanks. Not answering for decon. Your play has been delightfully less disruptive this game compared to the last few I've played with you as either alignment. I both want to keep it that way AND want to avoid as much as possible the recently-inevitable point at which you become a scumread for half the thread but never quite enough to lynch you and then discussion about lynching you clogs up real discussion every day. I'd rather put that off, especially when we have a number of other candidates today.
Posts like this from youOn April 08 2013 01:28 Vivax wrote:
Deconduo I have a question.
Since you have S & B as scumread, why did you look so skeptical towards my question? Would expect you to pop in and say: "Yeah I think he's totes scum too, vote him cause bsbsbsb, go read my case and shit, you're on the right track mate".
Instead you didn't seem to happy about someone actually liking your own scumread, and even would have FOUND IT SCUMMY if I had been trying to start a bandwagon on him.
What gives?
show that you DID miss the point, at least what I pick up as the point of decon's post. It doesn't matter that he agrees with you on snb, and you know full well that sometimes, someone agreeing with you on a read but in a way you don't like may indicate that they are scum and your read is town and scum sees a good opportunity to move in on building a scumread/causing a mislynch. So the fact you both have snb as scummy shouldn't mean you don't get questioned at all. At least to some extent, you missed that bit, based on how I read your posts.
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Seeing as you are having trouble with this Vivax:
-I think X is scummy
-Y votes for X
You seem to think that means I should assume Y is town. This obviously completely wrong. There is nothing stopping Y being scum and X being town.
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On April 08 2013 02:14 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 01:34 Oatsmaster wrote:
VE what do you think of artanis and Palmar's insistance that you arent town? Is this two separate questions? I'm in the middle of going over gonzaw's case on Artanis, I had kinda a town read on Artanis based on his case on geript, but that's probably because I'm irrational about geript thinking I'm scum for inactivity and I have a bad habit of just taking large posts as decent contributions without really looking at them Palmar thinks I'm not town like every game I play with him and he's afraid to push lynches these days anyway...not so much concerned about Palmar "insisting" I'm not town. The case against Shelvocke is another I feel like I can get behind, but again, I'm afraid I like it because he thinks I'm scum and would like to hear other opinions on him. His first post against me (^ Mafia) just seemed like a weak +1 to thread sentiment, and he has done virtually nothing besides.
Town VE dudes.
It isnt that hard.
(random stuff that I wanted to say to disrupt the thread. Clearly.)
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On April 08 2013 02:33 geript wrote:
VE, what is your current read on me and why?
geript my read on you is null leaning town - the only thing keeping you from being completely off my radar is the fact that you have this odd fixation on me. I'm trying to decide if you're using your read of me as some sort of anchor in the thread (town) or if you're just tunneling to fake contribution while simultaneously infuriating me (scum). As I said, right now I'm leaning town because your thought-processes are relatively straightforward and transparent - although I have to say your recent play in The Game makes me paranoid.
Honestly I just want you to get off my NUTS bro. 
I'll be back in a little while.
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Ok, so do you see why I'm suspicious of you both as it regards not active scumhunting and as it regards your role choice?
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@Artanis: Well that's all nice and dandy, but I had a feeling you'd respond like that from either alignment.
My points have more "higher purpose" than what you are supposedly defending yourself against.
For instance you post stuff like:
How is pushing my RNG plan not productive? I kept bringing it up even when people ignored me because I thought it was a good plan. I pushed it when people weren't discussing it and asked people how they felt about it. I commented on the Yamato plan and why I disagreed then improved upon it.
I'm not trying to contribute, I am contributing. So contributing makes me scum? Okay. I don't see the putting up an appearance at all. I read the thread, had an idea and pushed for it.
So I'm scum for contributing but not getting my idea through despite asking numerous times. You could also consider the option that everyone wanted to get their own ideas through, plus the distraction of interaction between people who said they didn't like plans and just wanted to pick their favourite roles made it so that no plan actually got through, not just mine. I really don't see how you can hold that against me.
Yes, I am complaining because I hate big games and I got busy since the time I signed up. So you can see me pushing my plan here once again, yet I'm supposedly just talking to put up an appearance. The pushing of my idea has a very clear objective. I want people to talk about it.
It's called pressure. You might've heard of it. If I posted "hm, I still kinda think Geript is scum but I'm doubting about it." would there be any pressure left? No, he could sit back, relax, and answer things thought out thoroughly. I wanted him to react with his gut, and he showed a mindset that made me think twice.
You are completely missing the point.
I make a point about how you are "contributing", yet you can only look at the fact that you are contributing as if it somehow exonerates you
I make a point about how you are "pressuring" geript, yet you can only look at the fact that you are pressuring him as if it somehow exonerates you
Hint: If just "pushing your setup ideas", "pressuring someone", made everybody town, then there would be no scum lynches in any game whatsoever.
I don't have anything else to say though.
If you are somehow town I expect you to do something eventually (before you are lynched D1 preferably) that convinces me of that. You defending yourself like you are doing so far is not part of that at all.
I thought scum wants to say very little with a lot of words. Guess it's the other way around when you have a scumread on someone.
You didn't say "a lot" either. Like I said it was fluffy fluff pile of bullshit stuff.
Also I guess you have nothing to say about the difference in your play between this game and British 2 I take it?
Here are the filters for convenience again:
Artanis in British 2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=400346&user=19729
Artanis in this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403766&user=19729[/QUOTE]
It's very interesting how my case keeps being buried and never mentioned, when (imo) it's the strongest case in the game so far, yet other players get bandwagoned with so little against them, like for instance S&B
If you don't agree with it, refute it, it's that simple. Don't bury it.
On April 08 2013 02:33 Restraining Order wrote:
Eh, snb looks like the best lynch atm.
No he isn't
He might look like best vig shot at worst (considering how totally useless he has been).
Is this the most you are willing to contribute this D1 RO?
On April 08 2013 02:01 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax is missing the point, but he's not new and I wouldn't attribute that post to him being scummy. Yes, it shows that he's not following his read throughout the thread there, but it's not like scumVivax should be popping into thread and dropping that question without reading through to see what's happened.
gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke?
I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE).
But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch.
He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either.
Now I'd like you to return the favor, which is....you know....commenting on the gigantic case I made.
VE, why are you trying to act so hesitant?
Where is the guns-blazing town VE I know of? You seem afraid in your posts or something.
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On April 08 2013 02:45 deconduo wrote:
Seeing as you are having trouble with this Vivax:
-I think X is scummy
-Y votes for X
You seem to think that means I should assume Y is town. This obviously completely wrong. There is nothing stopping Y being scum and X being town.
Your own read should be stopping X from being town from your perspective. But you still mentioned it, and that's what I'm holding against you currently. Attacking people for jumping on a bandwagon against your scumread in that way doesn't seem to be one of the objectives you would have if you had S & B really as scum, cause you mentioned an argument for my play being potentially scummy.
An argument that should only concern you if I were joining a bandwagon against someone you don't think to be scum, and not against a scumbuddy.
Should I ever see more reasons to think you're scum, I'll bring this up again cause it's a valid point in my opinion. But for now, I'm not expecting you to reply to this, cause you won't be able to dissuade me from this argument.
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Vivax why do you need to explain a simple thing like
'Why are you voting for your scumreads scumread?'
Its not that hard, Is it? Or are you avoiding talking about anything else?
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On April 08 2013 02:37 austinmcc wrote:
show that you DID miss the point, at least what I pick up as the point of decon's post. It doesn't matter that he agrees with you on snb, and you know full well that sometimes, someone agreeing with you on a read but in a way you don't like may indicate that they are scum and your read is town and scum sees a good opportunity to move in on building a scumread/causing a mislynch. So the fact you both have snb as scummy shouldn't mean you don't get questioned at all. At least to some extent, you missed that bit, based on how I read your posts.
I missed this. It's a good explanation, puts me better into the perspective. I'll wait to see more from Decon I guess, but I still found it odd for the aforementioned reasons. Guess I'll lay back a little and look for other stuff.
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On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:01 austinmcc wrote:
Vivax is missing the point, but he's not new and I wouldn't attribute that post to him being scummy. Yes, it shows that he's not following his read throughout the thread there, but it's not like scumVivax should be popping into thread and dropping that question without reading through to see what's happened.
gonzaw, thoughts on shelvocke? I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE). But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch. He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either. Now I'd like you to return the favor, which is....you know....commenting on the gigantic case I made. Was waiting on your response, wanted to see if you picked up on something.
I disagree with your ultimate setup discussion conclusion. - Artanis repeatedly comments on his RNG plan, but does NOT push it hard. Agree with you there
- Artanis's RNG plan is, imo, anti-scum. Scum has the advantage of planning out numbers/roles. To the extent that town crafts a pro-town plan, scum still has an advantage in planning out numbers/roles with relation to town's plan. RNG is the single best way to limit scum's pre-game advantage imo. It creates a plan for town, but limits scum's ability to make scummy plans around the town plan.
- Therefore, the setup talk comes out in favor of town-artanis to me. He is weakly pushing a plan, agree. But I believe that the plan he lightly pushed is pro-town. Given the choice of "lightly pushing a pro-town plan" meaning he's scum and doesn't want to really push it or he's town and just isn't super pushy/involved, I will take the latter. Scum had no need to bring up a fresh plan, nobody has tried to defend him based on this, so for now...I like the setup discussion as town.
We are both wordy, but I don't see the complaints as much and I don't see the need for them to warrant much comment. At the END of your complaint section, I do like you mentioning "cramming all sorts of things into a single post." I have not known scum to do that, tbh, but I can't really fight your conclusion there because I don't have a ledger of all the crammed-together posts and whether they came from scum to town. I know that, when I'm town, I often try to avoid commenting on some things, try to push a few small lines of thought and not get tripped up, but that may be because of my inexperience and it might not be a normal scum thought process. Whatever. Still got nothing pointing me to scumtanis from your case.
The geript case is poopy as I look back over it. It's either just not something I agree with or slightly scummy, but it's friggin pregame and early. You've also noted that you were watching artanis before he made this post. That makes it seem like you may be playing up the geript case as an indicator of scumtanis, because you were already scummy on artanis, and I dislike that. Just...I agree that artanis's geript case is not strong like ox, but I'm still not over to scummy on him (this is running commentary on just your case, if I'm taking each point and seeing how it sways me).
The backing off point is the first thing that I can see in a scummy light. The weaker the case, the easier to back off, but yeah, he's put a lot of effort into this and he backs off with the not liking your posts comment. I've done that myself as town, when I start to realize a scumread is feeling more town, you've looked at these posts as scummy for a while and it's hard to undo that even once you find someone to be townie, but I can also see the scum point of view there. I will agree that it's a half-assed way to back off.
***EVERYONE IGNORING ARTANIS*** This is why I asked you about Shelvocke. You know who's been ignored? Shelvocke. You know who Meapak ALSO commented on, then I commented on and voted, but has had basically NO discussion today about him? Shelvocke. I wanted to see if you picked up on that, because I read your point here and immediately went "Agree that this can indicate scum" and then "Oh right, this also applies to Shelvocke."
Overall, I like the ignoring point and think it CAN point towards scum. The backing off point is fine, and I think it CAN point to scum. Some of the points I'm meh on, and the RNG setup discussion in the beginning is something I find townie.
If I just filter Artanis away from your specific points, I see a couple things:
His aggression is all confined to like...an hour and a half of activity following his geript case/vote/post. He's gone for 11 hours or whatever, comes back, first thing he does is apparently re-read Geript, what has happened in relation to Geript in the meantime, and respond that he is reconsidering. I actually REALLY like that response. If Artanis is scum I don't see reason for the return to thread to be anything other than pushing a little more, creating a little more chaos, something, rather than just dropping your read. We're not even in the voting phase yet, there's no REAL reason to be changing your reads around if mafia, you're still just sort of dicking around, chatting in scum QT, whatever, and reading through your scumread's response to your stuff, changing your mind, and having that be the FIRST thing you do on return to the thread feels town to me. Thoughts on that?
There is my response. I don't want to lynch Artanis. I DO want to chat a little more about Shelvocke, especially with regard to the lack of commentary/votes/whatnot on him and your finding that scummy about Artanis.
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hey guys im grading problem sets right now but i took some time off to read the thread (lol 250 new posts) and heres what i got
gonzaws artanis case:
- accurately attacks his bad case on geript
- accurately attacks artanis for "out of place complaints about the town/thread", something that seems like a decent scumhunting heuristic but i hadn't really thought about before
- "other people are ignoring him" is a bad point, there hasn't been much reason to focus on him until now
- "fake aggression" really is more of a meta point, i would need to see examples of previous cases
i really don't like oatsmaster's post (18223749), it's pretty terribad. if artanis is scum i could see oats being scum too. or even if artanis isn't scum.
i like how gonzaw is actually trying to get people to pay attention to his big post#3000 case
in here is my answer to the case on me
obviousone in his post 18223896 makes the correct distinction, what i meant when i said "picking phase strategy" was the actual role picking, all the number picking strategy was stupid. basically, the only reason the attacks on me make sense is because i said that thing about the picking phase strategy being important, and then wasn't around to actually talk about or make plans during the actual picking phase. Well, the reason i wasn't around is that i wasn't around. i have at least three other time-occuping activities (girlfriend-having, apartment-hunting, and homework-doing) that are more important to me than mafia and i was doing those things friday and saturday.
now, that angle of attack is legitimate. it's incorrect because just being afk for a few days doesn't make me mafia. but it's legitimate.
the people who are attacking me for being off my meta are just ridiculous and/or lazy. if you actually want to look into my town meta, you need to look further back than just one game. criticizing bad posts is something i quite enjoy, and if you think me doing it makes me scum then i lol. lurking on occasion is also something i do, and if you think that makes me scum then i also lol.
post 18223971 geript votes for ryan for what appears to be no reason at all, weird because i remember seeing some townie stuff from geript earlier in the game. but this post is, what, an association case between ryan and meapak, without actually saying why he things meapak is scum? and also the fact that ryan doesn't comment on gonzaws artanis case? hmmmmmm, what is geript's comment on that case?
oatsmaster wants to lynch vivax why?
artanis's response to the gonzaw case - unconvincing but not obviously wrong, not sure here.
vivax: "anyone else finding s & b scummy" lol
oh my draft numbers were [4][2]
visceraeyes 18227911 what a terrible post
deconduo had just made a case on me and was following it up with a vote
completely different than what vivax did
visceraeyes Y U NO PAY ATTENTION
gonzaw says vig shot me VIGS DONT SHOOT ME I WILL DO GOOD THINGS FOR TOWN!!!!!!!!
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okay hey austin so i still think that post where shelvocke votes for VE is like super insufficient, apparently his case was "VE is usually rash with KP but he's telling people to be rash with KP therefore he must be scum"?
he hasn't said much about much else except for a town read on ryan that doesn't make much sense but that's fine
hmmmmm, how about this as a point: he's been around a decent amount and posted a decent amount, but his posting has been very narrowly focused and he hasn't said anything about anything except for his current "focus" - first his focus was "make a case on VE" for several posts, and then he changed over and his next several posts were focused on "have a town read on ryan" - seems kind of like a scum who is very carefully parceling out his "positions" and making sure to milk each of them for posts and attention without actually doing very much, or as someone said in red mini mafia, like he's scum trying to play a "clean" game?
idk, something still feels weird about him to me
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On April 08 2013 03:43 Vivax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:45 deconduo wrote:
Seeing as you are having trouble with this Vivax:
-I think X is scummy
-Y votes for X
You seem to think that means I should assume Y is town. This obviously completely wrong. There is nothing stopping Y being scum and X being town. Your own read should be stopping X from being town from your perspective. But you still mentioned it, and that's what I'm holding against you currently. Attacking people for jumping on a bandwagon against your scumread in that way doesn't seem to be one of the objectives you would have if you had S & B really as scum, cause you mentioned an argument for my play being potentially scummy. An argument that should only concern you if I were joining a bandwagon against someone you don't think to be scum, and not against a scumbuddy. Should I ever see more reasons to think you're scum, I'll bring this up again cause it's a valid point in my opinion. But for now, I'm not expecting you to reply to this, cause you won't be able to dissuade me from this argument.
T_T vivax
decon isn't trying to "push a lynch" on me
he's trying to determine my alignment
and simultaneously trying to determine your alignment
you need to get out of your "everyone has to push their lynch all the time" mentality, it's only important to fixedly push a lynch like that if you have a really strong scum read or if it's getting towards the end of the day and no one or the wrong person is getting lynched.
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EPT
