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On March 30 2013 17:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +Blazinghand in the Obs QT
Mocsta the point is that this town isn't actually incompetent. Town competence is measured in a different way than most people think. Let me explain: During late D1 and N1, when we were discussing NKs, the three NKs I pushed hardest were: GreyMist, Ace, VE, Sandroba, and Mr. Wiggles. I also had a few others I was thinking about, but those guys I really wanted dead. Why? Because right or wrong, these guys are natural leaders.
And although I was initially thinking "I hope scum wins, town doesn't deserve to win this" I really think I've walked back that sentiment. A lot of townies individually played quite well given the circumstances. This strikes me as a pretty average TL town in terms of quality, but a few bad mislynches has deprived the town of leaders. Early in the game, leaders are pretty important. Town is flailing around right now not because this town is incompetent, but because the conversational elements necessary to catch scum have all been lynched or shot before they could really develop.
Zona once mentioned there are different player archetypes and they fit together interestingly. Some players, like me, check the thread a lot and post a lot. Some players check the thread a few times a day, and read the full thread, and post a fair amount. Some players only check in once or twice a day, and post more rarely. Orthogonally, you can also classify town player's skill level / mindset. A small number of townies are actively bad. Not talking about those atm. Another slightly larger group of townies is able to cut through the chaff and find scum, posting excellent cases. These guys, when they roll town, are town leaders. The majority of town players are not town leaders, but can recognize a good and well-founded case when they see one. This is why it's so important as scum to eliminate townies who can lead good lynches.
When we shot VE and Keirathi N1 it was because they are both capable of stabilizing town and leading it. Luckily, VE has a big weakness for pissing contests, so when he survived, I was able to OMGUS him pretty hard and prevent him from being effective at least until I was shot. Our N2 hits were on Vivax and Sciberbia. Normally Vivax wouldn't merit a hit but one of us had gotten a blueread on him. Sciberbia was on our short list of "potential town leaders" along with VE, which is why he was shot. We still weren't sure what the deal was with VE and he was unbalanced enough we were willing to let him live another day. Basically, we were shooting calm guys who were capable of corralling the typical townie, the average player who knows a good case when he sees it but has trouble constantly writing them in the heat of the game. The Lynches D1, D2, and D3 basically helped behead town.
The N3 kills I didn't have input on, being dead, but the VE shot is obvious: the man can't be allowed to gain momentum. All my attempts to fling shit at him died with my flip, which means he was going to be obvious-town leader going into the lategame. The coag shot was more questionable, but we basically shot him because 1) he was gradually catching us all, and 2) some players thought he blueslipped. FWIW I think coag would have been valuable to town at LYLO just because the guy has some good analysis skills, despite what was said.
The N5 kills were a bit funny. We didn't meant to shoot DP/Test, we meant to shoot TPS/Test, but the host accidentally flipped DP and Test and there's no taking that back. TPS because he was gradually calming down, Test since he shot me. DP wasn't the worst accidental NK but not a valuable one either.
You'll note that looking at the list of players alive right now, although it's not like these dudes are obviously bad, there are no leaders to provide direction. Most of the town leaders died via lynch or were really mad when they died, so their last words were not recorded or referenced seriously by the others. I don't think this town was unusually bad, but the leadership was shot out from under them, the thread was chaotic, and a lot of scum players played really well. I'd have been lynched eventually, but town now is rudderless. Ace, Wiggles, VE, Kei, Sandro/Moc, Grey, Scib-- there are a lot of people who might have united town and fought us. Even Ace, for all his follies, at least would have been able to direct the lynch.
explain
Ace noob
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On March 30 2013 17:54 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 17:53 Ace wrote:Blazinghand in the Obs QT
Mocsta the point is that this town isn't actually incompetent. Town competence is measured in a different way than most people think. Let me explain: During late D1 and N1, when we were discussing NKs, the three NKs I pushed hardest were: GreyMist, Ace, VE, Sandroba, and Mr. Wiggles. I also had a few others I was thinking about, but those guys I really wanted dead. Why? Because right or wrong, these guys are natural leaders.
And although I was initially thinking "I hope scum wins, town doesn't deserve to win this" I really think I've walked back that sentiment. A lot of townies individually played quite well given the circumstances. This strikes me as a pretty average TL town in terms of quality, but a few bad mislynches has deprived the town of leaders. Early in the game, leaders are pretty important. Town is flailing around right now not because this town is incompetent, but because the conversational elements necessary to catch scum have all been lynched or shot before they could really develop.
Zona once mentioned there are different player archetypes and they fit together interestingly. Some players, like me, check the thread a lot and post a lot. Some players check the thread a few times a day, and read the full thread, and post a fair amount. Some players only check in once or twice a day, and post more rarely. Orthogonally, you can also classify town player's skill level / mindset. A small number of townies are actively bad. Not talking about those atm. Another slightly larger group of townies is able to cut through the chaff and find scum, posting excellent cases. These guys, when they roll town, are town leaders. The majority of town players are not town leaders, but can recognize a good and well-founded case when they see one. This is why it's so important as scum to eliminate townies who can lead good lynches.
When we shot VE and Keirathi N1 it was because they are both capable of stabilizing town and leading it. Luckily, VE has a big weakness for pissing contests, so when he survived, I was able to OMGUS him pretty hard and prevent him from being effective at least until I was shot. Our N2 hits were on Vivax and Sciberbia. Normally Vivax wouldn't merit a hit but one of us had gotten a blueread on him. Sciberbia was on our short list of "potential town leaders" along with VE, which is why he was shot. We still weren't sure what the deal was with VE and he was unbalanced enough we were willing to let him live another day. Basically, we were shooting calm guys who were capable of corralling the typical townie, the average player who knows a good case when he sees it but has trouble constantly writing them in the heat of the game. The Lynches D1, D2, and D3 basically helped behead town.
The N3 kills I didn't have input on, being dead, but the VE shot is obvious: the man can't be allowed to gain momentum. All my attempts to fling shit at him died with my flip, which means he was going to be obvious-town leader going into the lategame. The coag shot was more questionable, but we basically shot him because 1) he was gradually catching us all, and 2) some players thought he blueslipped. FWIW I think coag would have been valuable to town at LYLO just because the guy has some good analysis skills, despite what was said.
The N5 kills were a bit funny. We didn't meant to shoot DP/Test, we meant to shoot TPS/Test, but the host accidentally flipped DP and Test and there's no taking that back. TPS because he was gradually calming down, Test since he shot me. DP wasn't the worst accidental NK but not a valuable one either.
You'll note that looking at the list of players alive right now, although it's not like these dudes are obviously bad, there are no leaders to provide direction. Most of the town leaders died via lynch or were really mad when they died, so their last words were not recorded or referenced seriously by the others. I don't think this town was unusually bad, but the leadership was shot out from under them, the thread was chaotic, and a lot of scum players played really well. I'd have been lynched eventually, but town now is rudderless. Ace, Wiggles, VE, Kei, Sandro/Moc, Grey, Scib-- there are a lot of people who might have united town and fought us. Even Ace, for all his follies, at least would have been able to direct the lynch.
explain Ace noob
Ace good noob
And by that i mean, "Ace is the kind of player who can singlehandedly lead a town to victory, but is also the kind of player that town can easily mislynch, especially one like this with a lot of players who don't know him. If he shows up and lays down the law he could be fine, but instead he didn't, and for his error he was the target of a really horrible mislynch"
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On September 05 2011 00:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Idc if someone's playing like a noob I'll call them out.
Ace.
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
Basically Ace you are on the list of players we almost certainly would have shot this game but somehow you got lynched, and this is totally something that we expected could happen. The fact that both of those facts is true is baller
tldr ace good noob
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On March 30 2013 17:57 Ace wrote:
explain
![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3jvytTE1C1qbx51ho1_250.gif)
+ Show Spoiler +
and yes, that lynch was weird as fuck.
I wanted to push a second mislynch d2 and then just take all the attention in the world, but Wiggles had a better idea, so we let him do his thing.
Then he died too. lol.
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That is Ace folly because.....
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On March 30 2013 17:58 RyuSuzaku wrote:+ Show Spoiler +and yes, that lynch was weird as fuck. I wanted to push a second mislynch d2 and then just take all the attention in the world, but Wiggles had a better idea, so we let him do his thing. Then he died too. lol.
The fact that GreyMist, Ace, and Wiggles were the first three lynches, in that order, is pretty great.
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I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched.
Sigh v_v
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On March 30 2013 18:00 Ace wrote:
I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched.
Sigh v_v
that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard).
if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e.
+ Show Spoiler +also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta
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smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!".
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Since my spot has been blown up by the host already I want to point out something I found funny. I basically stopped playing mafia for two reasons. One, spammy posting. Two, I kept getting meta'd into the same hole on day 1 and inevitably lynched day 3 regardless of my alignment. The last few games I had played resulted in BlazingHand being up my ass from Day 1 and I join this game and smurf and on day 1 this dude named Wade Fell is up my ass. Then I find out Wade Fell is BH. It was like he knew and there was some form of spammy magnetism tied to my very soul that he couldn't help but destroy.
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On March 30 2013 18:04 Ace wrote:
smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!".
I seriously hate meta-analysis.
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hahahahaha wow. That is unbelievable bad luck hahahahahaha
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
I think we only played Purgatory and Storm together. In Purgatory I might have been hunting you for the wrong reasons but that was like my third game (and your plan was bad for town! rabble rabble rabble also you were scum). In Storm I do believe it was you who lynched me (my only time being mislynched as town!).
We must be starcross'd lovers destined to die in each other's arms
E: also the only combination left is for both of us to be scum together
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On March 30 2013 18:04 Ace wrote:
smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!".
yeah speaking of, I read your post about meta and I disagree to an extent.
Having talked to Foolishness (and having used his ideas) meta is IMO, a lot of the time, really really important. There are a lot of players who play wildly differently based on alignment.
With that said, I can agree with your general sentiment, not because meta is bad, but because it is used badly. I know it's been discussed quite a bit before, but I think the biggest failing is that people associate any change in behavior with a change in alignment. Games are not one to one, and context needs to be considered. Most important obviously though is the motivation for an action, and I think that's a problem with town analysis in general, not just meta analysis.
I think the biggest problem town had this game was focusing on the motivation behind the actions of players, rather than simply looking at what they were doing. I know it's stressed in Ver's guide but I still don't think people focus on it enough. It's hard, but I don't think the conscious effort is always there.
From a scum perspective meta and motivation are important too; it's how we pegged Vivax as a blue. Both kita and myself pegged Vivax as blue day 1 for separate reasons (read the QT for more) and it was primarily based on the motivation behind different posts he made. kita pegged him on a meta-analysis of his games, and I pegged him based on a single sentence he said. Since both of us agreed on it we were pretty confident he was blue, so he became a priority kill on n2 (though on n1 we chose to ignore him)
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There definitely needs to be a podcast on this so I can be a guest and ask all the retarded questions I don't have the answers to. I was so clueless this game.
>.<
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On March 30 2013 18:11 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 18:04 Ace wrote:
smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!". yeah speaking of, I read your post about meta and I disagree to an extent. Having talked to Foolishness (and having used his ideas) meta is IMO, a lot of the time, really really important. There are a lot of players who play wildly differently based on alignment.With that said, I can agree with your general sentiment, not because meta is bad, but because it is used badly. I know it's been discussed quite a bit before, but I think the biggest failing is that people associate any change in behavior with a change in alignment. Games are not one to one, and context needs to be considered. Most important obviously though is the motivation for an action, and I think that's a problem with town analysis in general, not just meta analysis. I think the biggest problem town had this game was focusing on the motivation behind the actions of players, rather than simply looking at what they were doing. I know it's stressed in Ver's guide but I still don't think people focus on it enough. It's hard, but I don't think the conscious effort is always there. From a scum perspective meta and motivation are important too; it's how we pegged Vivax as a blue. Both kita and myself pegged Vivax as blue day 1 for separate reasons (read the QT for more) and it was primarily based on the motivation behind different posts he made. kita pegged him on a meta-analysis of his games, and I pegged him based on a single sentence he said. Since both of us agreed on it we were pretty confident he was blue, so he became a priority kill on n2 (though on n1 we chose to ignore him)
100% agreed. A long time ago I said meta has to be something specific that someone is pretty much going to do most of the time when Scum/Town. Basically its like a player specific tell. The issue is people play 1 or 2 games with someone, see them do something, don't understand the context then copy/paste one or two quotes from that game into the current game and go LOOK! EVIDENCE! Just taking people's stuff out of context with no real thought.
I know my biggest weakness as Town is overestimating players. Ah well, maybe one day I'll learn my lesson.
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People need to stop dismissing night kill analysis. On TL mafia almost never kills to incriminate (not using the other word), let alone leaves someone alive to incriminate them, and Kita should have been basically autolynched d5, at the latest, based on who had been killed by that point. Of course, when I say autolynch, I don't imply that other evidence/context shouldn't be considered, but it's a very strong presumption.
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gg all. Congrats on the win scumteam. Town, sorry that I wasn't much help. And thanks hosts for hosting.
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EPT
