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On November 22 2012 11:29 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 11:27 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Kita
Strongly disagree with your analysis on iamperfection. His town meta involves plenty of those spammy one-liners. He's someone I'd strongly consider as a D1 option since his scum/town meta is pretty distinguishable. His play is leaning towards his townie side for sure right now.
I do agree with your assessment on kush, but for different reasons though. He's said that he doesn't care about who gets voted in for leader, which is pretty questionable. He also posted early that he was lost, confused, and had no reads. Then recently, he seems pretty adamant about lynching nl_Clarity. Mind explaining this a bit better? I am 100% in agreement with Kita about iamperfection.
Sure thang. Keep in mind that I've played a ton of games with iamperfection, so I'm more familiar with his meta than most.
Iamp's town meta is probably best described as...
+ Show Spoiler +
His town games are hallmarked by a semi-confrontational attitude, flippancy, and general spamminess that all play toward this.
His scum play is far more careful. In addition, it's far more lurky. A good example is GSL III Mini.
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On November 22 2012 11:27 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 09:17 Hapahauli wrote:On November 21 2012 18:05 Toadesstern wrote:On November 21 2012 17:50 goodkarma wrote:Nice to play with you again Toadesstern  . There were a few things you mentioned I would like to briefly touch up on and then I'm really going to bed... On November 21 2012 17:09 Toadesstern wrote:This Keirathi guy is mafia. Not because of what he's saying but because of what he's failing to provide: Reasoning as to why he'd post what he did so far. There's simply no reason to get out here and tell people he's planning to heavily focus on reading one guy. Best case scenario is him being pointless, worst case scenario is him trying to look good by providing "something" while actually being pointless. I'd say we've got someone who's trying to get a cheap backdoor exit early on. That being said I plan on becomming leader d1. Vote for me please :3I plan on sending people I trust to be town. Especially my townreads are pretty awesome and I have an easy time picking up townreads early on so I'd say this job is the right job for me. That being said I will not send people some kind of "majority" thinks I should send. I will send people I myself consider to be town and nothing else. That probably sounds stupid to those people who are new to this game but that's how these things are going. Don't listen to people telling you they will listen to some majority-decided group they will nominate if they get to be leader. Vote for someone who's willing and comfortable enough to make a decision on his own instead of trying to dodge the responsibility but wants to be leader for whatever reason nonetheless. I know it sounds awesome to have people telling you that your voice will be heard and everyone can hold hands and decide on the group together but that's just meaningless smooth-talk. You've got your vote. You vote for the leader, not more and not less. Everything else is in the hand of the guy in charge. That's how you influence this outcome and it's enough. More than that just makes it way to likely for people to be influenced. I will obviously only vote for someone I trust to be able to get good reads d1 himself in combination with a townread on said guy (duh). Having someone who's just going to roll a dice to determine who's going on the mission is not going to help us and let's face it, there's people who are at face value with rolling a dice, at least on d1. Vote me pretty please! What you're saying here seems perfectly reasonable to me. However, I still feel it's important that you provide your candidates you wish to bring to the party before people make a vote for you. We can't just vote for you because you're a vet that will perform well for us if you're town... On November 21 2012 17:13 Toadesstern wrote:
Oh and I forgot: Yeah we need to find someone to send d1 and that's all nice and fine but I don't think it's a good way to keep the talk all focused on only that.
Faking townreads as mafias is incredibly easy. Faking mafiareads as mafia is something that takes effort. If we're only going to talk about who we're going to send d1 we're giving mafia an incredibly easy time skating by.
I know it feels counterintuitive as clearly the shortterm "goal" is to send a good guy d1 but I think we should try and balance those issues out. After all, the goal in the longrun is to figure people out and we won't be able to do that by playing nice all day long. This is a very interesting point. But keep in mind that since lynching at the very least isn't commonplace, it might be possible for scum to deliberately bus themselves even early to gain some town credit and not get hurt that badly. Like maybe they spend their scumhunting time repeatedly picking on hypothetical scumperson A for half the game until he finally gets lynched. They go out looking townie, and don't have to worry about getting lynched again for a very long time... I'm still not convinced that focusing on lynchings as the primary means for town victory is best in this setup. Also, while faking scumreads on town is the standard task for scum in normal games, I'm thinking that faking townreads on scum as scum is going to be their focus this game. It will be easier for them to "blend in" doing this perhaps, but it should still be possible to find them, especially when a particular event outcome goes poorly. I still see this as the inverse of a normal game, where townreads are the priority. Scumreads may follow based on an unexpected vote.outcome to some extent, but only insofar as knowing whose opinions can be most trusted.for selecting the next party leader. I'm going to adress the 2.5 major points shortly:Yes I'm going to give you an idea of who I'm considering. I don't know what it's going to be like and I can't promise wether I'll call my exact team early but I'll give reads. I will try and explain the reasoning of the reads and what you're supposed to look into is that reasoning and not the reads themselves. I don't want you to only look at the results of my reads, I want you to look at my and everyone elses train of thought. That's the interessting part. Yes scum can bus themselves but that will lead to mistakes due to confirmation bias. That's the reason it's hard for mafia to fake reads in general. They know they are right or they know that they're wrong so they're approaching the situation completly different. And again, that's what you want to look into. If someone calls someone mafia but isn't able to give reasoning as to why he thinks so or if you think his reasoning is bad your alarmclocks should be ringing. And lastly yes I agree, mafias will most likely try and blend in by pointing out easy to do reads. That is just another reason why we shouldn't let people skate by doing nothing but delivering some weak reads as to why someone is supposed to be town. After all you're going to be right in most cases even if you roll a dice all the time due to the nature of alignment distribution, right? Picking out mafias is harder and is the standard by what we should be judging people. To clarify my opinion of Toad, I wanted to address the bolded point above. It's wrong. Or rather, it's likely wrong in this particular game format. In this game, mafia's goal isn't simply to sit around and try not to look like the scummiest person in the thread. Mafia's win-con is probably heavily weighted to the success and failure of the missions that we run as town. They want to be elected onto parties, and as a result, their goal is to look as townie as possible rather than simply blend in. So when I see toad post something like this, and then talk about how he'll "be more active" and "will take responsibility" - those are talking points I'd expect a mafia would use. Long story short, don't vote Toad. Even if you see eye-to-eye with me, he's a hard guy to read anyway - there's no way we'll have significant hints toward his alignment on D1. Long story short: I never said my activity is all I got to offer. I said I am very well a vet myself but said that that activity is the difference between people like Syllo/Sandro and myself when someone asked what's making me a good candidate. Also I'm from Europe, I usually don't like these US-style campaigns other people do in games when there's a mayoral election because I think that's trying to influence people by smoothtalking them. I'm not a better scumhunter than Sandro or Syllo, I'd consider my abilty to successfully identify townies early on as pretty sharp and what I've got is what I've got. I won't promise more than what I said unless it was meant as a joke (this game it wasn't). I'll make it clear here: Yes your right, I'd say the same as mafia, however I'm offering what I can offer to make sure you guys got a good idea about me, I'm cooperating if you will. If that's not enough that's stupid but I guess I can't do a thing about it. Thx for the next guy basicly telling people they should be scared about me because I'm hard to read... that's really helpful. Do you really think that people like Marv, Kita, Syllo, Sandro are so much worse than me in that regard if you compare our abilities as mafias from past games? Because frankly it's hilarious that I get that all the time and yet noone is talking about those "risks" when adressing Syllo or Sandro. Almost like I'm WBG/BC-junior.
I agree that I should probably be considering the scum-play of Syllo and Sandro a bit more, and that's something that I'll have to look into more when I have time. However, fact is that you're not an easy fellow to read. And I bring this up because you yourself have referenced and played off of this aspect of your gameplay in the past:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=52#1029
You're just not a guy that I'm comfortable having in a position of power so early in the game. The "talking point" stuff ("activity" + "decisiveness") also makes me second-guess your motives here.
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On November 22 2012 11:40 Toadesstern wrote:
Just to get this straight Hapa:
I don't want people to judge me or someone else solely by the plattform we are running. A single d1 post that is meant as your platform for running an election that proves you're town doesn't exist, therefore I'm not even trying to do such a thing, as is noone else.
I gave you an idea about what I thought about the game, how we should approach the game, how I think we should be focussing on scumhunting rather than talking about townreads all game long and that's it.
That doesn't make me mafia or town in the slightest. What should bring you to the conclusion that I'm town are the posts I did that are not based on the election because as you, what I posted in my "campaign" isn't clearing me as town, nor was it supposed to.
I totes get that a campaign, much less your initial post, isn't alignment indicative. However it can give me hints towards your alignment and I thought it was a scummy approach to things.
As for your "non-campaign" posts, nothing in there remotely brings me to the "conclusion" that you're town. I have no idea how that's a realistic expectation.
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On November 22 2012 11:36 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 11:29 Acrofales wrote:On November 22 2012 11:27 Hapahauli wrote:
@ Kita
Strongly disagree with your analysis on iamperfection. His town meta involves plenty of those spammy one-liners. He's someone I'd strongly consider as a D1 option since his scum/town meta is pretty distinguishable. His play is leaning towards his townie side for sure right now.
I do agree with your assessment on kush, but for different reasons though. He's said that he doesn't care about who gets voted in for leader, which is pretty questionable. He also posted early that he was lost, confused, and had no reads. Then recently, he seems pretty adamant about lynching nl_Clarity. Mind explaining this a bit better? I am 100% in agreement with Kita about iamperfection. Sure thang. Keep in mind that I've played a ton of games with iamperfection, so I'm more familiar with his meta than most. Iamp's town meta is probably best described as... + Show Spoiler +His town games are hallmarked by a semi-confrontational attitude, flippancy, and general spamminess that all play toward this. His scum play is far more careful. In addition, it's far more lurky. A good example is GSL III Mini.
Holy balls just realized my picture link was broken =(
http://imgur.com/gallery/5vQxV
@ GK
Yeah I completely agree with you there. Candidates need to be putting forth their proposed "teams" so we can get some voting info.
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Happy turkey day folks!
Anywho, I'm liking syllo and sandro alignment-wise, but I'm not going to vote until I see some teams proposed. I'm probably leaning towards syllo at this point based on his reent posts. However, as much as I respect syllo as a player, I'm not going to put blind-faith in his analysis by casting a vote for him now.
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On November 23 2012 02:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 02:46 Hapahauli wrote:
Happy turkey day folks!
Anywho, I'm liking syllo and sandro alignment-wise, but I'm not going to vote until I see some teams proposed. I'm probably leaning towards syllo at this point based on his reent posts. However, as much as I respect syllo as a player, I'm not going to put blind-faith in his analysis by casting a vote for him now.
syllo said he would not reveal his team...
Which is why I haven't voted him yet. I was under the impression that he may reveal his team later on in the cycle, and based on that I'll cast my vote.
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On November 23 2012 02:52 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 02:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 02:47 marvellosity wrote:On November 23 2012 02:46 Hapahauli wrote:
Happy turkey day folks!
Anywho, I'm liking syllo and sandro alignment-wise, but I'm not going to vote until I see some teams proposed. I'm probably leaning towards syllo at this point based on his reent posts. However, as much as I respect syllo as a player, I'm not going to put blind-faith in his analysis by casting a vote for him now.
syllo said he would not reveal his team... Which is why I haven't voted him yet. I was under the impression that he may reveal his team later on in the cycle, and based on that I'll cast my vote. where did you get that impression from? I thought he had stated quite clearly he would not.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=63#1256
Oh hmmm I misread his post a bit there. Well darn I'll have to think about this.
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Fuck it, I'm running for party leader. After sitting down and looking at Syllo and Sandrob, I'm just not very happy with how things are going. They were two players who pushed to be leaders early on, then we as a town today really sheeped on to them as opposed to truly thinking things through. I'm guilty of that myself.
Even if I don't convince you to vote for me, I hope whoever is running considers some of the town-candidates I put forth in this post.
Why I oppose Syllogism
On November 23 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote:
I can't explain it better than I have. It doesn't feel like he cares about figuring things out and there is no sense of urgency despite him being one of the most likely people to be elected. He has made no attempts at figuring out who mafia is and it seems to me he is hiding behind the fact he doesn't have to. There is being lazy and then there is just not caring. My other reasons rely on my knowledge of how he thinks and some of the things he has said feel off; can't elaborate more on that.
Yes, I might gain more votes by making my reads public. I would also gain more reads by pretending to be completely confident in my reads; I'm not. I have not finalized my team yet (right now I've 2 whom I'm likely to take and a few possibilities for the third) and may not finalize it until the end. An honest assessment as to why I'm not going to is a combination of considering it optimal play (if I get the votes), being lazy and because sometimes my town reads rely on things other players may find flimsy or the reasons are otherwise difficult to explain (tone, whether the person feels earnest).
If I were mafia, there would be absolutely no reason not to make the list of people I intend to pick public.
I really object to the rationale in this post after thinking it over. Syllogism pitches non-disclosure of his team as "optimal play" which is garbage logic. We, as a town, gain so much less information from the voting process if we all sheep onto Syllo. He's suggesting that disclosing his reads would somehow be "less-optimal", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.
In addition, as mafia, he would have plenty of incentive not to disclose his "list" - mafia don't want to provide analysis if they don't have to. Syllo's entire platform is "trust me," and I'm not willing to put D1 in the hands of such a player.
Why oppose Sandrob
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=71#1413
I agree with a lot of what nl_Clarity said in this post.
Sandrob campaigned really early and earnestly for his position, and then has all but disappeared from the thread. Sandrob hasn't contributed anything resembling a read, and this is not someone I want to be party leader D1.
Why I oppose Kita
Absolute joke campaign.
My Proposed Party:
nl_clarity
Clarity has been one of the most engaged players in the game so far. He seems to truly care about what is happening and has the activity/content to back it up. This is the opposite of his scum-play in Newbie XXX (where he was far more distant in the early day), and I consider him strongly town.
GoodKarma
I really like the content he's posted so far, and I think it's far enough of a departure from what I've seen him to as scum to trust him. As scum he tries to blend in a lot more (Mafia LVII, Newbie XXIII), and him campaigning for party leader is the polar opposite of this.
Dienosore
He seemed to have claimed here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=51#1017
I have no reason to disbelieve him at this point, and he would need to have coconut-sized balls as a hypothetical scum playing his first game.
Others I have considered
Keirathi - I still consider him town, but I have stronger reads on the above three players
iamperfection - someone who seems to be town based on my meta read on him. However, I ultimately decided against this since I feel he's capable of faking his meta in the early days. What's more telling about his allignment is if he can keep up his antics.
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On November 23 2012 03:43 marvellosity wrote:
no thanks, s&b.
Hapa, I don't really care for why you oppose people, but I have no idea whether you are town or scum or not, so I could not vote you.
So who exactly are you supporting at this point? I don't pretend to be easy to read or "obvious town" at this point due to my relative inactivity this game. However, I do firmly believe I'm a better candidate than the others, and my post should show that I care and am thinking about the situation at hand.
And even if you don't want to vote for me, I want to hear some opinions on my proposed party//reads.
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On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.
Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player.
It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting.
This is fucking retarded.
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On November 23 2012 03:56 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. We still know the party, we just don't know his reason for picking them. If you mean that we are voting for 1 person, rather than 4, it has its advantages and disadvantages. Less easily manipulated by scum (assuming the chooser isn't actually scum himself), but gives less of a basis to vote on. Do you think Syllo is not town?
I have no idea and that's the problem. Syllo hasn't done anything. He hasn't provided reads, and his only major contribution has been his "trust me I'll do everything" campaign. The only person who I've seen give something resembling a "read" on Syllo is Sandrob, who discussed in vague terms how he thought Syllo was town based on skype convos or something.
That's an absurd reason to trust someone at this point in the game. Honestly, I'd insta-lynch someone for doing what Syllo's doing in any other game, but the circumstances in this set-up are quite unique and make me lean more null to him.
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Hopefully his vote should give you some reservations about the current voting Acro...
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On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism
This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith.
This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here!
Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads.
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@ Syllo
Give us your team. It appears you've finalized things and you withholding it has absolutely no pro-town purpose at this point. You're the vote-leader as it stands, and there's no reason why your reads shouldn't be out there.
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On November 23 2012 04:15 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 04:10 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith. This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here! Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads. @ HapaI disagree with you. This is just a matter of time. In 6 hours or so, we are going to know who were the party members and if the event has failed or not. Syllo giving explanations before and after is just going to help us to assess our read on syllo.
No goddamnit NO. NONONONONONON.
These votes aren't about determining Syllo's allignment. They're about determining the other players! Those who vote and do not vote for syllo.
In a normal mafia game, we would make reads on D2 and beyond with information of where people stand on player allignments. We would know who thought who was town/scum/etc. We don't get any of this in this system!
A bunch of people are going "I think syllo is town, and I'll vote for him." This is stupid and rediculous compared to the alternative, where players will have to think entire teams of players are town rather than syllo.
I mean holy shit, do you really want to vote/trust a guy who's saying things like this?
On November 23 2012 04:08 syllogism wrote:
I guess if Sandroba is mafia, what I said about marvel's play not making strategical sense from mafia point of view is moot. In addition, he doesn't seem worried about dying in the near future, considering his hp related remark and him already announcing that he may run for an election in the future. Regardless, it's not relevant now and I am not going to go through his filter to determine whether it makes sense content-wise. That's not important right now though and a content based evaluation has to be made when it is.
I've a team ready. Not entirely satisfied with it as usually figuring out 3 virtually certain townies is easier; perhaps it's the format or the players complicating things or me just not being familiar with a lot of people here. Around 4 hours until deadline, is this correct?
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On November 23 2012 04:17 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 04:10 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith. This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here! Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads. A failed mission would be terrible, but it gives us information and if you refuse to acknowledge that, then you're "fucking retarded". I think mission success is of paramount importance and that syllo is the best horse to back in order to achieve that. The voting doesn't determine syllo's alignment, it says we all think he's town and a good candidate. If you believe syllo is not town, I'd love to hear about it, but for reasons other than "he won't tell me who is on his team".
It gives us LESS information. All we will know is that Syllo is wrong. We won't know anything else, because everyone sheeped on syllo based on a misguided notion of trust rather than making any reads.
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On November 23 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote:
The only way me providing information regarding my picks gives you more information is if mafia decides to fight harder against my election due to my team being all town. I don't find it particularly likely that mafia would have behaved any differently today, unless perhaps if I had revealed my team much earlier. Revealing the team right now or even a few hours ago would have achieved nothing as I've been pretty much inevitable for longer than that. The reasons against disclosing the team, however, still stand.
You don't need more information about me than can be found by reading my posts. I'm town and whether town reached the correct conclusion based on blind faith or deduction isn't relevant.
So what are these "reasons" for non-disclosure? As far as I'm concerned, there aren't any. I want to be able to hold people accountable for the teams they support rather than having a worthless D1 because a bunch of people decided to sheep you.
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On November 23 2012 04:23 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 04:19 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:15 Djodref wrote:On November 23 2012 04:10 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith. This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here! Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads. @ HapaI disagree with you. This is just a matter of time. In 6 hours or so, we are going to know who were the party members and if the event has failed or not. Syllo giving explanations before and after is just going to help us to assess our read on syllo. No goddamnit NO. NONONONONONON. These votes aren't about determining Syllo's allignment. They're about determining the other players! Those who vote and do not vote for syllo. In a normal mafia game, we would make reads on D2 and beyond with information of where people stand on player allignments. We would know who thought who was town/scum/etc. We don't get any of this in this system! A bunch of people are going "I think syllo is town, and I'll vote for him." This is stupid and rediculous compared to the alternative, where players will have to think entire teams of players are town rather than syllo. I mean holy shit, do you really want to vote/trust a guy who's saying things like this? On November 23 2012 04:08 syllogism wrote:
I guess if Sandroba is mafia, what I said about marvel's play not making strategical sense from mafia point of view is moot. In addition, he doesn't seem worried about dying in the near future, considering his hp related remark and him already announcing that he may run for an election in the future. Regardless, it's not relevant now and I am not going to go through his filter to determine whether it makes sense content-wise. That's not important right now though and a content based evaluation has to be made when it is.
I've a team ready. Not entirely satisfied with it as usually figuring out 3 virtually certain townies is easier; perhaps it's the format or the players complicating things or me just not being familiar with a lot of people here. Around 4 hours until deadline, is this correct? I was not talking only about syllo alignment. Tomorrow, we are going to know the tickect and the party members and if the event have succeeded or not. We can process all the info tomorrow. Regarding his confidence in his read, I have no problem with that. Only scum and DarthPunk are 100% sure of their reads
We're voting a player who is not satisfied with his reads and we're entirely comfortable in resigning our fate to that with no explanation.
Holy christ.
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On November 23 2012 04:23 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 04:21 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:17 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 23 2012 04:10 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 04:03 Hopeless1der wrote:On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea. Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player. It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting. This is fucking retarded. I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo. This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success. It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do. ##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism This is so fucking retarded. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's amazing that players are thinking like this and are a-ok with Syllo's "system" in complete blind faith. This "voting" isn't just about determining Syllo's allignment - it's about seeing who votes for who. This gives a bunch of players to herp-derp and vote syllo (just like you're doing) with zero rationale. We want to be able to draw lines between votes and reads. I want to know who thinks who is town, and the parties that players are supporting. THAT"s the information we value here! Because if we fail this mission, we're not going to know jack shit. Syllo explaining his choices after the fact is completely worthless, and this gives a perfect veil for mafia to hide under without making any reads. A failed mission would be terrible, but it gives us information and if you refuse to acknowledge that, then you're "fucking retarded". I think mission success is of paramount importance and that syllo is the best horse to back in order to achieve that. The voting doesn't determine syllo's alignment, it says we all think he's town and a good candidate. If you believe syllo is not town, I'd love to hear about it, but for reasons other than "he won't tell me who is on his team". It gives us LESS information. All we will know is that Syllo is wrong. We won't know anything else, because everyone sheeped on syllo based on a misguided notion of trust rather than making any reads. I agree, it gives less information, but I want to succeed at the events more than I want to find mafia right now. There are so many unknowns in this game, and I'm playing a hunch that the theme is more important than people are giving credit for.
WHAT DOES SYLLO WITHHOLDING READS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH "SUCCESS"?!?!?!?!?!??!??!!?
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On November 23 2012 04:24 syllogism wrote:
I don't believe you are entirely confident with your team either. I'm capable of honest self assessment and I don't see why you are attempting to use me being transparent about my thoughts in an attempt to discredit me. It doesn't particularly make sense for mafia to attack me at this stage though.
No I'm not 100% confident, however I'm willing to put my reads out there to see how players respond. I want to get information. You want to be lazy and withhold everything for reasons I for the life of me can't figure out
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EPT![[image loading]](http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Do_98efd6_1365733.jpg)
