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On September 04 2012 05:51 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 05:42 mkfuba07 wrote:Anyone have an L counterclaim? Until then: ##UnvoteI have a question about voting. does this:
Scum wins when their number is equal or more than town's number. override this:
5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first is lynched.
I ask because if we mislynch D3 it will result in the teams being 3 town/2 scum (if I've done my math right, it's currently 5-2, with a mislynch and today's scumkill = 3-2). If the three town vote for someone before the two scum vote for someone, will the town vote have priority over the scum vote since it was the person with the most votes first? Or is it instant scum win when it's 2-2? This you trying to gain town cred just in case Hiro slipped up/did something else stupid like he just did?
No, this was me trying to figure out if your reasoning was accurate, and if we could still survive if we mislynched you. Fortunately I don't fear a mislynch anymore. Nice fingerpointing though. When you flip scum maybe it'll support my townie status. God knows I didn't do a very good job of that myself this game.
I forgot to do this in my last post, so ##Vote Risen
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Completely understandable. Thanks!
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I'm incredibly suspicious of Node. His general lurkiness as well as his sudden vote for HiroPro drew me to his one page of filter.
For starters, I'd like to draw attention to these two posts, which I feel were his most substantive posts regarding the SnB lynch. I actually previously felt like they were his most substantial posts of them all (particularly the first one). It seemed to have been well thought out and insightful.
On September 02 2012 11:05 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 10:54 HiroPro wrote:On September 02 2012 10:53 MrZentor wrote:
Na, I don't think scum knew he was the traitor. No I don't think so either. But they would have thought he was town and that's where it gets interesting. I disagree strongly. I think s&b's claim was made at least partially to alert scum that he was a traitor. Put yourself in Kira's position -- you're probably aware that you have at least one supporter hidden among the detectives. Who looks most likely? I'd have to imagine it's the person who claims they're going to start appearing red at some point to checks.
On September 02 2012 11:30 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 11:24 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:21 Risen wrote:On September 02 2012 11:20 Shady Sands wrote:On September 02 2012 11:17 Risen wrote:If I can find something that tells me sab is traitor, that means anyone else can as well. I swear I'm the only one who puts effort into these games. From a game I watched called Bureaucracy. The second I saw HiroPro call sab out for lying/inconsistency I reread sab's filter and the green red thing clicked in my mind so I searched for traitor in the TL search bar. Lo and behold. + Show Spoiler +On July 22 2012 14:05 slOosh wrote:Awesome on two counts! I am a Crazed Employee - basically a delayed 1 shot vig, and I targetted Foolishness last night. As you know I've been spending a majority of my time figuring him out and was wavering because he had a good case on BM which I agree with, yet chose to do exactly that a case on BM. I was torn on trying to figure out meta and trusting people's reads, but VE's grilling brought out cold hard, in-thread contradictions that I understand and trust. Probulous I'm assuming is some sort of kingmaker (?) - and he made VE king to lynch BH. Prob has also said that Chezinu is some sort of rolecop: Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 10:47 Probulous wrote:
Time to read that Ole foolish filter. I don't think Chez is scum. He worked out my role but never outed it. I think he can check the names of roles because he correctly emphasised the first three letters of mine to me and only me. Prob is it clear from your role name what your ability is? Because from a minion perspective, the knowledge of someone's role is hard to use - even if you knew someone was blue you can only submit the name to CEO kill list, and outting something like that isn't a town thing to do in the first place. But I also thought he was some sort of messenger role? Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 03:23 VisceraEyes wrote:On July 22 2012 02:20 Palmar wrote:
I haven't caught up since last night. Did Chez ever claim messenger role? The way Chez does, yes. And he sent me a message so... I forgot who said it (was quite recently) that scum and town may have mirror/similar abilities. Sandroba was a clear instance of a town messenger - use ability to find out scum. Chezinu or whoever is sending seems like they are sending messages of confusion (house of Chezinu etc.). In any case I still have to do more rereading & filtering in light of the new information influx. Lastly, I think that the traitorous employee should claim. As I understand it it's like a self-aware miller who wins with town but numbers count with scum. Since mafia have to kill all town they are torn having a "confirmed town" alive and wasting their 1 KP on a useless kill (doesn't count to their wincon), and have lost their means of instantly killing him, plus the possible additional benefits of seeing scum strategies and redacted knowledge through outed PMs can be huge. On August 31 2012 17:27 strongandbig wrote:
Good morning, everyone!
So I've been reading some discussion about this from past games, and I've decided to come forth and claim. I am a self-aware miller.
I'm going to use this post to explain myself and my claim. Hopefully I'll do it well, but I'll also do my best to respond to questions, as well as just to establish my townieness through my play.
So first off, why claim now?
Well, it's clearly now or never. Millers claiming after they're checked are completely useless - in fact, they're worse than useless since they give actual scum cover to hide and potentially waste a lynch.
Second, why claim at all? Well, the main reason is that everyone in this game is a detective.
Usually, the main miller mechanic is that the presence of millers puts some doubt on a DT check and people actually have to discuss it. In a game with 30 people and one or two each of detectives and millers, it's pretty unlikely that the miller actually gets targeted with a DT check. (Unless you have a troll host who makes like the best three townies non-self-aware millers, thank you very much BC.)
But, like I said, in this game everyone is a detective. I know VTs don't get to actually make DT checks - I guess Zeph wasn't lying when he said he would send everyone in the game a copy of the VT role PM. However, in a setup where everyone is a "detective", I expect that there will be a large number of roles which actually do have DT checks. This means that it's much more likely than normal for a miller to get DT checked.
So, it's more important than usual for millers to claim early in this setup. If a non-claimed miller gets DT checked and returns scum, it just fucks with the town and could potentially waste an entire day's lynch. It's much better for the millers to claim on day 1 and then show they're town through their behavior. Like I said before, people claiming miller after day 1 are actively playing anti-town and should be destroyed.
So finally, what should this mean for the town and for me? Well, it obviously puts an onus on me to show I'm town through my play. That's fine, I'm going to do my best to live up to that. It is a very exciting time for my experiment, but I can and will post as much as I can from work, as well as both before and after work. I'm also going to do my best to find scum (although historically I tend to be more successful at judging other peoples' cases and less at making my own, but that's why we have other players to judge my cases as well).
For the rest of the town - it means you have to think critically about what I say. Am I pushing scum objectives? If so, lynch me. Am I promoting useful discussion that gets info out into the thread, or am I promoting trolling, spam, and ragefests? If any of the latter, lynch me. Are my cases good or bad? If they're bad, don't lynch me - bad cases =\= scum. Just tell me why you think they're bad, and see how I respond.
It also means you have to think critically about what other people are saying about me. Putting myself out as a miller should naturally draw attention to me, and that's something scum could try and piggy-back or bandwagon on. If people say I'm scum, think critically about their cases and their motivations.
So let's go town!
PRE-EDIT: I should be a little bit more specific. I don't know whether checks on me will return scum or town - all I'm told is that some checks on me will return scum instead of town. I speculate that there are different types of DT check in this game and I am only a miller to some of them - maybe L has special DT powers, and one of their advantages is that they are immune to some or all millers? I also don't know whether it's likely to have more than one or two millers in such a small setup, but having a lot of DT power roles could mean we have more millers than normal. If there are other self-aware millers, they should claim asap as well, or else never claim at all.
PRE-EDIT TWO: I AM IN EUROPE. This means I will be asleep for deadline; it's at 4:30AM my time. I'll do my best to compensate for this during the days here.See any similarities? I wasn't going to say anything, though, because I wanted to see whether a save attempt would come, and guess what? Come it did. Had it built any real steam I would have pointed this out and we would have gotten the sab lynch. Now we have scum who tripped over themselves to try and save the traitor. I'm not even convinced there wasn't a scum guy on sab waiting for one of us to unvote sab so they could come in and be "convinced" as well. I think the clear lynch is going to be among the list of people who were trying to save sab, though. What makes you think the scumteam would want to *save* a possible traitor? I can't even tell if this is a real question or not. This is a real question. Let's say scumteam saves a traitor by going all out and all voting for an innocent townie. Townie flips green. Wouldn't the town then proceed to lynch the traitor the next day, and the proceed to lynch the rest of the scumteam for that? Now think about it this way: scum always needs to build towncred. But building towncred via bussing means sacrificing a contributing scum member. Instead, why not sacrifice a traitor whom the team can't communicate with, and whom the town already suspects? Well, for starters, it's entirely possible that s&b was, in fact, communicating with the scum team. Show nested quote +Every cycle, you can check a player by PMing all hosts. If that player is Kira, you gain rights to communicate with him and his allies. If that player is the Head Investigator, however, he will be notified that you were stalking him. It's also possible (though less likely) that Kira had some method of checking if someone is a traitor, which the claim would've baited out quickly.
They appear to be meant in an attempt to help town, but if given even 5 minutes of thought I feel like most town would see following this course of reasoning to be full of unsupportable WIFOM. Trying to gain anything from the speculation of whether SnB found Kira, and then on top of that speculating on how the scum would react to SnB's impending lynch is a complete waste of time.
This may not point to Node being scum, but it does pretty much indicate that these posts were useless despite appearing to be meaningful contributions (at least to little old newbie me). They also support Risen's strong pursuit of that line of reasoning, and as we know he was scum. As for its insightfulness, it's not particularly insightful to give reads from Kira's point of view when you are Kira. He could support the misleads that Risen was encouraging without actually sticking his head out while appearing townish at the same time.
Most significantly, there's also the fact that earlier in the game he says that he doesn't see anything scummy about Hiro, then votes for Risen. In the most recent vote, when we're all diving on top of Risen, he suddenly finds Hiro to be more scummy. He doesn't explain this, or at least tries to explain it extremely poorly in his single post from yesterday. Why is he suddenly not believing HiroPro when he states in his reasoning for the MrZentor lynch that he's "...going to have to go with L and Hiro on [that] one."? His reads are completely inconsistent, his reasoning is incredibly lacking, and he is supporting discussion that doesn't lead to catching scum.
Node is scum.
##Vote Node
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That is one thing that I'm really not too sure about. It's possible that it was just so that we would ask that question, though that's just WIFOM. Essentially, I see little reason for him to vote for HiroPro as town, and I see some good reasons for him to not vote for Risen as scum. I need to catch a bus to class atm, but I'll try to add some theory for Node's Hiro vote when I get there. It would be easier to figure this out if Node posted to explain his sudden switch, but I'm not letting him off the hook just because lurking appears to be part of his meta. As it stands, I think my answer will be pretty WIFOM-y, but the question marv raised had been on my mind as well.
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One thing that did occur to me - and this may just be me being self-centered - but Node's vote came after I removed my vote from Risen but before I had replaced it. This was in no way a plan on my part, but you can see where scum may be motivated to try to save their scumpartner and essentially win the game when someone shows signs of potentially letting them do it. He may have been distancing himself from Risen earlier without feeling as though Risen was actually going to be lynched, but later when Risen's head was on the block, he saw an opportunity to save his scumpartner and went for it.
I see this possibility - WIFOM-y as it may be - more likely than a townie just flip-flopping completely on his read (hiro-town/Risen-scum -> Risen-town/Hiro-scum) for any of the reasons Node presented in his single post from D4. The reasons for town Node doing what he did are almost non-existent compared to the reasons that scum-Node would have done so.
As for Hiro still being alive all this time, he said they tried to kill him last night. Until D4, he was just the "cop". The fact that L previously mentioned a "servant" may have made them think that Hiro wasn't actually L, but one of his underlings. After he roleclaimed and subsequently revealed that there was no servant, they tried to take him out. The fact that there was no scumkill confirms this for me. The only other option is that Hiro is an absolutely diabolical mastermind, the real L was killed and for some reason has left behind a VT role PM (hence no one else to claim L from him), AND Hiro decided to give up his scumkill today in order to claim that he was shot but didn't die. Far more likely: scum was confused, and Hiro is L.
As an aside, I'm wondering if there are actually 2 scum remaining. My first paragraph only grows stronger if the scumteam felt that they only had to convince one person instead of two (making the vote 4-3 for Hiro with one less town vote). I'm also not sure what the balance would be in a game like this, so maybe someone experienced could provide some input as long as it doesn't distract from scumhunting. It could make sense to me in a setup with 15 players that there are 4 scum as long as one is a traitor.
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That's what I meant. You just made me realize something that pretty much completely confirms what I believed.
On September 04 2012 07:45 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2012 15:40 mkfuba07 wrote:
##Vote Risen
At the moment I have no reasons to doubt HiroPro, and fewer reasons to doubt L telling us to listen to him.
The international has me in a dota-y mood, so I'm going to play a bit. I'll be online for about 5 hours before the lynch in case anything new arises. The bold portion sums up my recent confusion. My faith in Hiro was based on a belief that L had some way to confirm people's alignment (as that makes perfect sense, him being the Head Investigator and all). Risen's L claim was the only thing that would make me doubt Hiro's cop claim in the slightest. The fact that he claimed to have only the mason-like ability made me suspicious, though. I suspected Hiro to be L since he claimed cop, but it wasn't a sure thing. L's confirmation of it earlier made me believe him. And Hiro's recent claim fits perfectly into what I believed was likely going on. The fact that there is no "L's servant" further confirms it for me, since no one has come forward to claim having killed hapa. If you were L, Risen, how did you know that hapa's death was a town vigi kill if you didn't do it, and you didn't have any additional powers allowing you to know who did? Finally, Risen's newfound shock that we haven't been suspecting Hiro of lying about his claim this entire time, when he is only just now mentioning it, reeks of scum desperation. Especially because it was supposedly his own words that made us believe Hiro.
On September 04 2012 11:41 HiroPro wrote:
T_T they shot me
Check those timestamps. Almost exactly four hours after I clarified that I was still going to vote for Risen, Hiro claims to have been shot. They were no longer going to be able to push a mislynch on L, so they decided to kill him with the Deathnote. We have firm reason to believe that any kill with the Deathnote takes at least four hours to carry out (from the flip on SnB), and that is exactly the amount of time it took for the shot to happen.
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My previous post was @ Hiro, not in response to marv.
Gotta get to my next class. May or may not be able to post for the next 3-4 hours, but I sure as hell plan to be here for the lynch today.
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I have two things to add to my case from yesterday, but first, a recap.
I still see no reason for town Node to have voted for Hiro instead of Risen, especially given his two earlier defenses of Hiro and his earlier vote and suspicion of Risen.
Scum Node on the other hand, when given the opportunity to mislynch L and save his scumpartner at the same time, has every reason to attempt it. The scumteam as a whole had a great reason to pursue this course of action, because Risen was going down anyway, so he might as well take L with him.
Now for the new stuff. Check these posts by Risen:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2012 05:48 Risen wrote:
Shady Sands: The Case of Being Really Bad or Being Bad
I'm going to give Shady the benefit of the doubt here and say that he's just Bad.
To start off with, I can't tell whether he just didn't read the statement properly, or whether he was trying to misrepresent what mamba was saying (in the case of one, he's really bad, in the case of two, he's just bad. See where I'm going with this? This isn't American Politics. People are going to read what you're saying and "lying" about what someone means is going to get caught by someone (me!).
Now Hopeless is a town player in Shady's eyes and Hapa gets the good ole FoS for calling Hopeless out. Why is calling someone out for saying something stupid grounds for an FoS? Hopeless could CLAIM that what he did was simply meant to generate discussion but I tend to only believe such claims from people I've seen do it before. Regardless, Hopeless didn't claim that, and you pretty much FoS'd someone for calling out someone who asked to be told when he was lurking. It's too WIFOM to discuss what Hopeless was trying to do here, but it isn't WIFOM to say that calling Hopeless out for doing something stupid isn't something worthy of an FoS. Also, how do you justify your feelings that Hopeless is towny from what he's written? You use a WIFOMy argument. Sure, that might be all you have, and just saying that is fine. However, you used that to back up your suspicions of another player, which is bad.
Next up we have your "defense" of lynching lurkers over liars. This is really bad. Defense is in quotes because I don't think you ever really come out and say we should lynch lurkers over liars, but the implication sure is there. And how do you support your position? One guy. But that one time BM was town! I don't care. You lynch whoever is the most scummy player, and in 99% of cases the liar is that scummy player. That's really wishy washy. No longer really bad, you're bad scum trying to appear active in my mind now. See a trend here?
What's this mamba/shady back and forth really about? I'm not sure anything of substance came from this. I'm not going to hold this against you, though, because if anyone ever wants to look through my filters in just about any game I'm not hydra'd with marvel on you're in for a rough time. One thing that bugged me about you here is that you already start calling lurkers out. How long has the game really been going for? Another thing that bugs me here is Mamba's voting with your earlier FoS on Hapa. This is more an indictment against Mamba than you, though. Mamba being one of my FoS's doesn't help you at all, and neither does your guys' giant discussion earlier.
Now that it is much later in the game you point out that node and mamba are not posting like they should be. Fair enough, and I can get behind that.
Now then. Another really bad vs bad point. How do you not understand what Mementoss is saying? You can DISAGREE with what he's saying, but to say it makes no sense? Add this to your earlier misrepresentation of mamba and you see where I start to question the line between really bad town, and bad scum. I think you're scum trying to appear active in the thread so you try and point things out that could be suspicious in other players. Any "cases" you make aren't really that fulfilling and then you vote Node.
Why Node over MrZ? Surely the "active lurker" is more suspicious than the guy who might not even be playing the game/is getting modkilled. Right?
It all adds up to really bad townie vs bad scum. I think you're just bad scum.
##unvote
##vote: Shady Sands On September 01 2012 11:48 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 11:46 Hapahauli wrote:
While I want Hiro lynched today, we also need to consider the extremely "helpful" actions of Node near the lynch deadline. Def my #2 scumread. And yet somehow Solar escapes this? It's posts like this that read as scummy to me. You're calling out one player when another did nearly the exact same thing.
These were in response to two of the few times that Node was mentioned independent of any other lurking players. Both times, Risen tries to draw attention to other lurkers. I see this as a soft defense of Node. Anyone else being mentioned independently never drew a "well what about Node?" from Risen. He actually focused heavily on Palmar because of his lurkiness and trolling, but apparently didn't see the need to mention Node at that time.
The second thing I'd like to do is remind everyone of is the argument between Hapa and Node below:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 01 2012 09:49 Node wrote:I think it's incredibly silly to say that nobody will vote for BM24 when 5 or so people have already swung on to Hiro very suddenly (and with reasoning as minimal as "yeah, sure, why not?"). But as for your case: I don't think Hiro's done anything explicitly scummy. Yeah, he dropped the case against MM, but seeing as the prevailing opinion now is that MM is safe (otherwise there would be more votes on him), there's nothing wrong with that. His contributions hve been less since then, but I haven't seen anything outright anti-town in his filter (contrast with BM). I've got much stronger scum reads. I'll leave my vote where it is for now. On September 01 2012 09:52 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 09:49 Node wrote:I think it's incredibly silly to say that nobody will vote for BM24 when 5 or so people have already swung on to Hiro very suddenly (and with reasoning as minimal as "yeah, sure, why not?"). But as for your case: I don't think Hiro's done anything explicitly scummy. Yeah, he dropped the case against MM, but seeing as the prevailing opinion now is that MM is safe (otherwise there would be more votes on him), there's nothing wrong with that. His contributions hve been less since then, but I haven't seen anything outright anti-town in his filter (contrast with BM). I've got much stronger scum reads. I'll leave my vote where it is for now. There are 2 votes on HiroPro. Don't pull this shit about "5 person voteswing" or whatever - you're being misleading. And MM is not safe. He has 3 votes on him. Are you even reading the thread?
I feel like most people ignored this as I did until going back through the filters, but Hapa has a really good point. Node used a false statement to avoid having to implicate himself in either of the mislynches (MMToss or Palmar) that day. The flow of the game was moving away from BMB, and possibly (though unlikely) towards Hiro. Node's explanation was not only exaggerated, but also misrepresented the facts.
Both of these things are inadequate to prove Node's scumminess on their own, but I think they support the stronger evidence I provided yesterday. Node's actions make infintely more sense from a scum perspective, and Risen's actions regarding Node support my theory, given what we know.
Hopeless1der and marvellosity, I hope you will join me as I ##Vote Node.
(I think I added too much color formatting. Sorry about that.)
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Sorry, passed out after my last post, then had class.
I've considered a no-lynch, but in order for it to be successful I believe whoever the Framer is would have to save someone either today or tomorrow (scum has a kill today and another tomorrow, and the kills don't have to occur with the daypost). Maybe this would work, but the chances of Kira not killing the Framer the first night, and the Framer actually selecting the same person as Kira at least once aren't chances I'm particularly hopeful in taking. Do we even have a way to ensure that Hiro didn't choose Kira as the Framer?
Overall, I see the best way for town to win is have all three of our votes on a single person at the end of today, so that even when Kira tries to kill one of us, he cannot manipulate the vote. Clearly I believe that that person should be Node.
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But a no-lynch will leave us at 2-1 in favor of town. Kira can kill before the lynch deadline. That would bring us to 1-1, and a Kira win.
There's no way I'm risking that with a no-lynch.
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Gotta leave this classroom. Gonna try to find another one open around here, but if I can't then I'll have to wait to take the bus home to post again.
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@Hopeless1der
Node it's too late to claim Framer, but uh...WIFOM, something, something, save the day if you're town.
What does this even mean?
You didn't address marv's concern. Prove that you're town, don't just sheep our votes and then place the "blame" for the lynch in our hands. Your post makes it sound like you're still unsure. I assume that means you think that Node and I are almost equally scummy still, but you're going with what marv and I have decided. You haven't explained any of your actions today aside from what I see as incorrect reasoning regarding a no-lynch. Why did you vote Node, why do you see me as scummy, and why do you seem so indifferent as to who gets lynched?
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Also, in the same post that you ask for a no-lynch, you request for the Framer to reveal himself. Why would town want that information revealed? Scum would want to know so that they could, for instance, lead the town into a no-lynch under a false MYLO claim, while killing off the Framer who is the only person who could possibly save the town after a no-lynch.
I expect a response from Hopeless1der and I'd like to hear marv's thoughts as well. I can't trust Node's words if he's scum nor his reasoning if he's town, so I don't really care much what he says at this point.
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On September 06 2012 10:30 Hopeless1der wrote:
Sorry Fuba don't have time right now to give you a real answer and won't be back until after deadline. The game *should* be over tonight unless the Framer saves us. That's why the post you quoted is in there.
As for my 2 minute 'explanation'
Marv is asleep afaik. I know I'm town. I doubt you guys swap to Marv, but you can't anymore because of plurality lynch.
I'm not clear on who's scummier between you and Node. Marv forced my hand by voting Node. Doesn't really matter, I had a really busy day at work (still here btw) so I wouldn't have come up with a read either way. That was part of the reason I wanted to No-Lynch.
My "indifference" is guaranteeing that Marv and me CANNOT be lynched based on the voting mechanics, and I think Marv is town (and again, know I'm town). Unless Marv is still awake, there is nothing that can be done to stop this lynch anymore (Unless Kira can in fact shoot us whenever the hell he feels like it)
Bolded quote: This is a huge scumslip. You say that the likely outcome is us losing. Why would a townie vote in a way he thinks will make him lose?!? You don't even say "unless Node is Kira, we've lost the game". This sounds like a Kira victory speech more than an explanatory post.
Marv are you up? What do you think about this?
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##Unvote
##Vote Hopeless1der
The only thing that would completely throw me off at the moment is if marv is Kira.
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It turns out I was just completely lost the entire game -_-;;
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EPT
