EPTOn September 15 2012 02:28 Toadesstern wrote:
30 more minutes until I've got to leave. Shady Sands or Gravan?
30 more minutes until I've got to leave. Shady Sands or Gravan?
Mav??
TL Mafia LVII - Page 107
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
Mav?? | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
About my case on you. I agree its not very strong. Actually I agree with you calling it a "case" as you nicely highlighted it with quotation marks. And the reason it is weak is because its impossible to create a strong case on someone playing the way you do taking your suppoed meta into account. Without meta, the case is like the strongest case ever because you've done like what, 20(?) things that each on their own could result in suspicions being targetted your way. However, you obviously have to take meta into account, and as all such normally suspicious activities suddenly can all be explained by "its his meta, he always does that regardless of alignment". So yea, the "case" is weak, and its also impossible to be strong. Its like trying to create a "strong" case against someone not posting or someone FoSing everyone. Try to do that. About policy lynches Is my "case" of you a policy case? Definitely partly. And is that a problem? Policy lynches are absolutely fucking needed in this game. The second you remove the possibility of policy lynching someone, thats the second someone not replying or someone FoSing everyone becomes unbeatable as mafia, because you cant create strong "real" cases against them. As such, you NEED to pull policy cases now and then, and policy cases should always be considered. It would be way to easy to play as mafia otherwise. Depending on the situation, I wouldnt have minded starting a policy case on Grush either. Especially not early in the game. later its more debatable. But for now thats probably neither a good idea nor likely to go through. However my "case" on you isnt only a policy case. You on the other hand has given additional reasons to vote for you, which I why I was more "pushy" in your case. Dont be surprised to see me pushing policy lynches in other games should I join more, especially if the people in question give me additional reasons to. Off topic: + Show Spoiler + I could post a long-ass reason why I still would like to policy lynch in general (not related to this game) and what I hope to accomplish with it, but I'd consider that pretty unnecessary and off topic (since its not related to the game, duh). If you want, I can share on PM or in the thread after the game is done though, just ask for it. You also (conviniently?) forgot about this and the point there directed to you: + Show Spoiler + On September 11 2012 16:44 Kreb wrote: Ok, decided to not follow the wagon after all (damn im such a rebel). My vote will be on BillMurray for now. Few reasons: - This post made by Hapa before he died. It did kinda get left alone given that Toads case on Forumite was posted later same page (page 77). + Show Spoiler + On September 10 2012 01:26 Hapahauli wrote: First off, I don't buy ShiaoPi's excuse. If Shiao is moving into university as he is suggesting, I find it hard to believe he'd sign up for a Mafia game if he knew his schedule. He was also plenty active to respond to Maverick's suspicion against him - and much more frequently than the "10 minute loading time" per page he was suggesting about his internet earlier. Finally, Shiao's only standing read is an OMGUS against Maverick. Strongly suggest shooting him tonight. Also, I won't be as active for the next few hours, so I wanted to comment on... Bill Murray This is mostly based on his actions (inactions?) during the BKE lynch. Right around when I dropped the case on BKE, Bill Murray had a burst of 6 short posts, all compiled into one larger one for your convenience: I summarized the case for him and never heard back from him. The only post he made between there and after the lynch is this weak-sauce soft-push of BKE: This is the only post he makes during the BKE push. Note that he doesn’t take a stance and simply disagrees with BKE’s defense. Then, after the BKE lynch... All of a sudden, he acts as if he was against BKE the whole time. Now I’m not sure if BillMurray is capable of doing stuff like this as town (his normal posting is scummy after all), but this specific thing seems scummy as hell to me. - His unwillingness to reply to this post, to Bosons post questions or to my question. There might be more occasions but probably not needed. - Me generally disliking that way of posting. If you purposedly post scummy (which people have claimed he always does) you just make it way too easy for yourself to hide. - Him not really committing to anything and switching opinions about people all the time. He said he'd back off Forumite, voted on him anyway. He had also gone back and forth about Maverick in his filter (without explaining the reasoning of course). - Toad seemingly agreeing BM needs to die. Toad is the one one who seem to have the meta knowledge about the others, and even though he's preferring Boson/Forumite, at least it doesnt mean the meta-argumentation clears Murray of anything. - Me having a bad feeling about the Forumite case and how its unfolding. Maverick explained it well + Show Spoiler + I don't like the way these cases are being played out. By there being more than just a dominant voice of "Everyone pile on this person"- having another option forces people to choose. If everyone just says "vote for this person" and no one is offering an alternative- scum is safe to just follow along since there wasn't a realistic option. That would be about it. Im very open to change my vote should he make an effort to defend himself though, but I've got a feeling that wont happen. Short opinions about Maverick and Boson and why I dont want to vote on them for now. Maverick: With the 10 or more people I have no feeling for at all, Maverick at least made two recent posts I very much agree with as town. Not enough to put him as a clear town, but enough to not make me wanna vote on him now. Boson: I think the best explanation of his play so far was him being 3rd party. So I'll stick to that opinion about him for now. ##Vote Bill Murray So no, my "case" isnt only a policy case. Ok, now time for BMs case ("case"?) on me. I totally wish I could reply with something along the lines of "i really dont think BMs deserves a reply considering his play before". Too bad that would like unnecessaily scummy.  -You accuse me of flip flopping you. Actually its true, I did. But what I also did was explain my reasoning behind my flip flopping. How many flip flops have you done and how many out of those have you explained? - You accuse me of wanting to policy lynch you. Already covered that. But as to your accusation, yea I do want to lynch you due to policy (and other things). - You accuse me of not focusing one target "as a town would". True, I didnt. But please explain why a town would do that and while you're at it you might explain how it relates to the amount of targets you've focused over the thread :p About the recent SS/BM "bluefishing" exchange (Oh man, BM is gonna love calling us scumbuddies for this): I dont really see the problem with Shadys "bluefishing". The thing is he is already pushing for a case on Grav. Ok, put yourself in mafia-SS's boots. You're pushing for a mislynch on Gravan for whatever reason (because you think hes blue?). In from nowhere comes BM saying Gravan is Blue, and not green which is the other option for mafia-SS. Would it under any circumstances make sense for mafia-SS to ask for a confirmation about where the blue read come from? Except for maaaaaaaaybe out of curiosity that you might have hit jackpot by leading a mislynch wagon against a blue, nothing. Under any normal circumstances, mafia-SS would smile for himself, hope BM is right and stfu. I do agree with BM had SS been pushing for anyone else but Grav. Then it might very well have been bluefishing. But as he was pushing Grav, I dont. On the other hand, town-SS being suspicious of BM has a reason to demand an explanation when BM comes in and opposes town-SS's main tunneltarget. If anything, that exchange put SS more towards the towny side for me. I really dont see mafia-SS acting like that at all. That is also the townread i referred to and why Im not voting him. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
On September 15 2012 02:31 Mementoss wrote: How was Mav's defense good? He basically said why are people bringing up my scummy post from day 1. If you say something SO scummy on day 1, it doesn't magically get unscummy by day 4. He's trying to discredit things he did in the past as non relevant. Also, the way that slo0sh immediately mentioned how Mav's statement on Grav made Mav look town is really discomforting. It looks like slo0sh told him to write that about Grav looking townie, and then for him to tell the rest of the town that it makes Mav look town. Hm. I still like the Maverick lynch personally. I don't think the BM stuff on shady really shows anything. I do agree with what sloosh said about it being a bit towny. I also do think his case on ShiaoPi had some merit. Other than that, not much really. But I said it was "much better than Gravans". Which these two point alone made it imo. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
There's multiple good choices for today and I highly doubt all of them are mafia, which kind of speaks for itself I guess... See you after the lynch, hopefully with a dead mafia. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
StrongandBig On September 05 2012 00:29 strongandbig wrote: lol. If matt was going to defend himself he would have said something by now other than "hey guys maybe I'm a VT trying to draw scum shots lol". I've played a bunch of games with Mattchew recently and based on those, I think this is him as scum. For example, if I were going to fakeclaim miller as scum, I would do it very differently. However, you have to remember a couple things about Mattchew: - he's lazy as fuck as scum, except in themed games - he's pretty aggressive as town a lot of the time. The example I was thinking about was from him in TL Mafia LV, where he and I were both town. He lied about taking a shot, and then when I suggested that it made no sense for him to take a scum shot and he might have been vigged, he attacked me like a moron for the rest of the game. Unlike that, in this game his lie doesn't have any follow-up. If it was a planned-out pro-town lie, which I imagine is what he'll pretend it is, he would have been all over the first few people to attack him. Instead he just disappeared. It seems much more likely that what he did was the same thing I did in deathnote - claimed miller without first asking the hosts whether millers are self-aware, and got caught for it. The difference is, I did it in a game with a closed setup. ##vote: mattchew This is his Mattchew vote. Review the context and look at how everyone else votes. They are all one liners saying "he is a liar ##Vote Mattchew". StrongandBig takes his time to really get into the nitty gritty and dwells on the point when it is totally unnecessary. There is no serious opposition to the votes - making your stance on Mattchew extremely clear is not something town would see as something necessary. This is scum bussing a teammate mentality - get as much credit by being as clear as possible. There are many posts in his filter that are mere speculation and wishy washy - nothing that shows scumhunting: On September 05 2012 00:41 strongandbig wrote: One last thing - I wanted to mention some things I saw in BC's filter. Reading through the thread I was pretty confounded by how assertive he was towards DrH, but it makes sense if he was told by Palmar that he couldn't let the thread know Palmar had modconfirmed that nosy neighbors aren't self-aware. The other thing is about the repeated not-reading-mattchew's-actual-post and saying he was trying to get blues to claim. I don't really know what to make of this, other than it kind of shows BC is just skimming. We can pretty safely assume that BC isn't the same alignment as Mattchew, so that means he's probably town unless Matt flips assassin; but this still seems kind of odd to me, especially since the thread wasn't extremely long at the point BC called out Mattchew. I haven't played many games with BC so I don't know whether this is a scum tell for him, or if he's just always lazy as town, but hopefully someone who has played more games with him can drop some meta for us. Look how many times he states how uncertain he is on the issue. Then why bring it up? Why bother telling everyone in the thread "BC looks kinda weird but I'm not sure"? Read Mafia XXX - this is a scum trait, emphasizing uncertainty. Why as town would you want people to know how unsure you are? You can see he isn't trying to get a better read of BC since he doesn't post anything else on him. Compare this to a post from his filter in Mad Men Mafia On August 05 2012 00:37 strongandbig wrote: that's a drastic oversimplification, biosc. Here's why I think wbg is scum: When he's town he explains things, doesn't gambit, and doesn't draw attention to himself for no reason with stunts. In this game, he hasn't explained himself in a satisfactory way - and the explanations he has given don't hold up whatsoever. His reasons for outing the masons don't hold up. If he wanted mafia to have to wifom before shooting him, there was really no reason he needed to claim mason; he could have just played super townie, which he is definitely capable of doing, and then called for medic protection. His claim to be "pressuring" ve by outing him doesn't match his thread behavior, where he didn't pressure ve at all or even make him post more than once or twice. And his claim to be "deterring potential scum masons from masoning people in the future" doesn't hold up either, unless everyone agrees to out more masons in the future; in order for this tactic to work he would have to persuade everyone that outing masons is good in general and he hasn't even tried to do that. Additionally, I would count this "instantly outing masons" thing as a gambit of the second order - and bugs has frequently said not to gambit as town. It's not in his town meta. Next, both with the outing of the masons and with his self-voting, public insults, and flame-war with erandorr, he's drawing attention to himself in a way that isn't consistent with his town play. Finally, there's the grush thing. Usually when town-wbg tries to lead a lynch, it's with reasons and explanation as well as the insults. This one had jack shit of that until he was pushed on it, and then when he was pushed on it the best he could come up with was more insults plus an example of one game where grush trolled. Yeah so that's why wbg is scum. Vote for him. Look how sure and assertive he is. He brings out clear arguments and doesn't once say "oh I'm not sure". This is also a D1 lynch involving strong personalities. On September 09 2012 02:25 strongandbig wrote: I don't think grush is scum. As far as I can tell the case on him from toad started off as "grush is trying harder to look/be townie than he usually does, therefore he must be scum." The alternative explanation is that maybe he's just trying harder to look/be townie? I played/obsed the recent PTP game, where grush survived until almost the end - that game, trolly as it was, was the towniest grush has ever been. I'm still not entirely sold on BKE, but I feel much better about him than about Grush. The claim, I don't know about. It's a very easy claim for mafia to make, and we can't prove it false or true, especially since he'll be able to claim roleblocked. There's the fact that if he checked the person who was suicide bombed he should be dead, but I give zero weight to the argument that's been made by some people that his claim is too weird to be made by mafia. If the claim is fake, it's possible that he was the one who delivered the KP on BC - or one of the two if he was double stacked - and the claim is designed to be safe against trackers and real watchers. Anyway, I don't think we should ignore the case on him just because he claimed a PR. I agree with whoever it was up above who said that if we do that, then scum can just always claim PRs and get free extra life by claiming to be roleblocked. So I'm back to the original core of the case against him - his scummy shift in position on Mattchew before and after Palmar's post in the thread. Sure it's not 100% a sure thing, but I like that case better than the case on Grush, and so ##vote: broodkingexe pre-edit Reading over Austin's post right above mine it looks like some decent arguments on z-boson as well - big lists, not following up on his own stuff, inconsistency, etc. Also someone to consider. Another post where he tries to take no responsibility for his votes. Notice how many times he has to let everyone know that he isn't sure. Additionally is mentioning other people's cases to push the idea - this allows people to start mislynches but he takes no responsibility. Scum trait. He doesn't even actually read Z-Boson's filter until called out. On September 11 2012 07:26 strongandbig wrote: I... don't really like this logic. This implies that your own instinct is pointing at someone other than Forumite - who would that be? That said, some logic I do like is the case on Forumite. It's not just that he's been way less "pro-town" and "invested" than usual this game, although that's the biggest part of the case; but I still think there are some sketchy things in his filter - that first "don't lynch vets" post still rankles considering it came from someone who is pretty vet-ish. ##vote: Forumite Again, we see he hops on a wagon, not offering anything new. If you notice he never mentions Rewok after the flip - why wouldn't you pursue something like that? He finds something off about the post, but just says "I don't like it". So many times in his filter "I don't like this or that" but never "this looks like scum". On September 14 2012 01:20 strongandbig wrote: I'm voting for maverickx. Out of the cases so far, the one on him (redone recently by mementoss) has by far the most meat to it. I don't have a town read on gravan like I do on grush and billmurray, so I'd be willing to consolidate on him, but the case on him just feels too "wtf where is he" without enough "also this is why he's scum." I think compared to those two, mementoss isn't a great lynch for today since he seems to have started giving a fuck. However, that could just be him being scum and realizing that he has to start giving a fuck or die. But I think mav is the best lynch out of those today. ##vote: maverickx Again, hopping on another person's wagon, but also letting everyone know that the person whose wagon he is joining could be scum. He is setting up mislynches. If you think he could be scum then you would question it at the time, you don't need to wait for a townie flip to start pursuing it. On September 14 2012 14:06 strongandbig wrote: We should be killing Mav today. He hasn't made a real read all game, and now comes out with a town-case on Gravan. We still don't have any scumhunting out of him, and town cases are easy for scum to make. I think he saw the writing on the wall and this is a ploy, and we shouldn't fall for it. It's not a case where the only motive was town; it's also very smart scum play, regardless of Gravan's alignment. A push on Gravan by Mav would just be dismissed, so this is his top option. I've pointed it out before and I'll do it again. First, the bold line is EXTREMELY hypocritical as seen from my case. Second, how is he so sure a push on Gravan be dismissed? He is twisting the situation to make mav look like scum no matter what. And this is the first time that he seems to care about the lynch, so I'm thinking that one of the candidates is a scum buddy (prob Gravan) that he is trying to save with a counter wagon. The best vote for today is StrongandBig. I realize this case is coming late but that is because Mav's posts and stuff that follow were late in the day. I will vote StrongandBig and check back nearer deadline if enough people can see it. I strongly think mav is a bad lynch at this point. Both Gravan and Shady Sands are better lynches than him. ##Unvote: Shady Sands ##Vote: StrongandBig | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
You are very late though.... | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On September 15 2012 02:25 Mementoss wrote: How do you have a townread on SnB let alone a STRONG townread, wtf, this guy hasn't done shit all game. Unbury The only person I would be willing to vote other than Mav today would be SnB. Everything slo0sh said is exactly how I felt reading everything SnB said this game. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On September 15 2012 03:05 Kreb wrote: Ooooh, I like that one sloosh. Had given up on getting anything on S&B. You are very late though.... He was always at the back of my mind but there are so many lurkers that he just got lucky and put near the back of the line. Start putting votes on him we still have 4 hours you never know. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
##Unvote: Shady Sands ##Vote: StrongandBig | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
That unvote was on Gravan. Ctr-c Ctr-v fail....also clarifying in voting thread. | ||
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Rewok
40 Posts
Vote: Gravan | ||
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Gravan
59 Posts
On September 15 2012 04:12 Rewok wrote: We're really bad at this game this time. Vote: Gravan Seriously Rewok, what is your deal? You are nothing but a sheep. You aren't even attempting at rationalising this vote. | ||
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Gravan
59 Posts
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Gravan
59 Posts
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
On September 11 2012 04:07 Rewok wrote: I've been wrong every time I voted on my own instinct and right the time I followed Toade so my vote is for Forumite. ##vote: Forumite On September 15 2012 04:12 Rewok wrote: We're really bad at this game this time. Vote: Gravan You mean your really bad at this game? God damn man | ||
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Gravan
59 Posts
Read my filter. I know some of you have not done this. First off, I am Vanilla Town. Now, read through my filter again, looking at me as if I were scum. What am I doing? Am I pushing mafia objectives? No. Am I trying to cause confusion and mayhem; trying to derail the thread? No. Am I trying to blend in? Maybe; although I would expect a little more aggressiveness in the way of jumping on the people I voted for, probably in an attempt to get towncred. As a townie, if you read my filter, you'll notice I am pretty consistent. I make that one poor comment on Matt, but it was really a confusing time and you might notice that that is my first attempt at contributing in a mafia game ever. I honestly think it is a reasonable thing to post, as a newbie. So, this is my 'meta' argument, in a way. Looking at my posts, you know that I have to be a smurf or a newb. As a newbie town, my posts make sense. As a newbie mafia, I think my posts are really strange, and don't really fit. As a smurf, my filter in general is really bizarre. As Maverick said, why would I start posting more as the thread goes on if I were mafia? The only reason I would do so is if I were trying to further mafia goals - something which I believe my posting doesn't back up in the slightest. Yes, I voted for/was an opponent of BKE, but so was most of the thread. Otherwise, I feel as though my posts reflect my true nature quite well. Basically, if you're voting for me, I want you to actually read my filter and justify to yourself why you are voting for me. And, please, don't try the whole 'lurker' argument - I am far from the worst of the lurking players here. | ||
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Gravan
59 Posts
Read my filter, damnit! | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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Kreb
4834 Posts
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