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The so called breadcrumb
+ Show Spoiler +Does it really make sense to you that I would know he's an active townie and a JK and not shoot him? He’s going to point the case at me either way so why would I hold off on killing him? There’s going to be pressure on me either way. Would you pass up on that kill as mafia? I wouldn’t think so - I think evul was a poor choice of hit. He was suspicious to me for lurking and that cleared the town to go after better targets. I thought the breadcrumb was damn obvious but didn’t mention it (at first, until he started attacking me) because I wasn’t sure if other people would see it. Did you guys really not see it? I actually breadcrumbed "JK" for jailkeeper back at him because I thought he was secretly telling me he was JK at first. Then I thought he was asking the jailer to jail me but it didn’t make sense to not just ask straight out. I thought I was clearly reading town at this point so his attack blindsided me. I then thought he might be trying to bait out an attack by YourHarry and then turn back on him before I finally realized.
Why I think he's after me
+ Show Spoiler +Think about who jingle is. He's clearly a townie, and he clearly gets STUCK on an idea, and can't ever be convinced. He’s playing emotionally rather than logically. You can't argue with a bull. He points WIFOM at me and dismisses anything I say and “won’t stoop down your level Calgar”.
Here’s my case:
+ Show Spoiler +Let’s go back to iamperfection who I called out very early. I brought his case up before anyone else, as a matter of fact. If it’s such an obvious case then why was I the first to bring it up? I’d also like to remind you that a confirmed townie was suspicious of him. This is one of the reasons I thought obvious was innocent. Do me a favor and re-read my initial argument: On July 17 2012 06:24 calgar wrote:Two – Nice of you to grace us with a single post, iamperfection. I feel like this may have been somewhat buried so I’d like to bring it back to people’s attention. I want to call to attention poor logic and assumptions. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 00:42 iamperfection wrote:It means i got me eye on you google is kind of usefull.
Although calgar's premise is wrong. I think a mafia member is more likely to put much more thought into their posts then a non mafia member. From my 1 game of experience in which i played more of a lurker role as a mafia member the other 2 members put a ton of thought and effort into their posts. Even as going as far as having the coach review their posts before posting them to see what they thought. Your logic: Hmm, so my premise about his anti-town behavior is wrong, based on your limited observations of being mafia last game? What?! First, that’s a terrible sample size. Second, it’s fallacious to assume that anything in your previous games has any relevance on how people will act in this one. Poor logic and mafia-like. What relevance does your specific last game have at all to our situation here? Show nested quote +You are by far looking the more sucpicious right now. The accusation on tube is telling to me. After the heat on you it seems you like you know want to set up a policy of lynching lurker or people that do one liners. Instead of drving the attention on one person it appears to me you are trying to get us looking at a whole group in order to confuse the town
FOS Calgar
Also, i think there is a possibility yourharry post was an attempt to get attention away from calgar
smaller FOS on YourHarry It looks like you just scanned my post quickly and attacked it as “trying to shift suspicion”. Did you even read it or consider what I meant? It seems like many others agree with me about his anti-town behavior. It seems you’re defending anti-town behavior of tube here. Why are you suggesting that I have some grand strategy of people to lynch? It looks to me like I made one very specific post about a single player. Yet I have plans of setting up a lynching policy to "confuse the town". Putting words into my mouth - very suspicious.Your post strikes me as if you were mafia and were planning how to enter the game late. You decided to jump onto someone’s reasoning bandwagon to try and avoid attention. Why do I say this? You make no effort in original thought. To me it looks like you scanned the thread, looked at who had been attacked, and said “Oh yeah I agree, FOS on the same two guys as jingle”. I think my case is straightforward and makes sense. Iamperfection has a habit of just jumping onto other people’s suspicions. It’s clear that he’s not even bothering to read the thread. He says neither I nor hapa have made arguments as a reason for us to be suspicious. We both, in fact, do. It’s like he’s playing a different game or all the arguments and evidence is just flying over his head. He then backs off of me after I vote him to avoid a confrontation. Now he’s back at it, tagging onto me with no reasoning. Look at this quote: On July 20 2012 01:24 iamperfection wrote:
Jingles claim looks legitamate to me. I'm not buying any crap that jingle should be dead because he bread crumbed. It would be so risky for jingle to lie and hell this is newbie mafia i didnt spot the bread crumb and im sure a lot of players didnt spot it. He bandwagons with jingle again. His second and third sentences are logically disconnected. What does the issue of whether or not mafia picked up on the breadcrumb have to do with how risky it is for jingle to lie? His play is so careless. It's fact that I've challenged people in the thread to talk more. iamperfection has never done this. Why does it seem that I am the only one that feels strongly about this? I think perf is very likely mafia. Even if you think I'm a bit suspicious, I knew jingle was JK so you're saying that mafia knew of the JK and didn't shoot. Why would mafia ever pass up such an easy blue? It looks like the mafia may have missed the breadcrumb. iamperfection missed it and I think he’s mafia. Is this not plausible? Lynch him first – you can always come back to me with more information.
My thoughts in regards to calling the ‘vigi hit’ from when I was in the moment. This is the best explanation I can give for my reasoning.
+ Show Spoiler +I've suggested a vig hit as a means to try and pressure iamperfection to talk. Trying to light a fire was my only intention with the post, I haven't actually considered whether or not it is wise to do yet.
Here are my thoughts: It is 8:3 right now and probably 7:3 after night kill.
Scenario A: he is mafia
No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting him. He dies – mafia is revealed. 7:2 going into night.
Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip mafia and glean what we can from that. We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 7:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 7:1 or 6:2 into night.
Scenario B: he is confused townie
No vigilante kill occurs – we pressure him for 3 days, end up voting for him. He dies – town is revealed. 6:3 going into night.
Vigilante kill occurs – we see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2 going into day, fate is in our hands to make it 6:1 or 5:2 into night.
Is it a rash call to make the hit? He's one of the impossible-to-tell ones with weak reads, low post count, ignores questions. I think it's basically a big gamble. We mis-lynched which I tried to argue against so this can put us ahead again, or even more behind if he ends up town. I'd want to vote for him anyways, though, for tomorrow during day lynch, so I figure if we are guaranteed to try him then might as well flip him now because if we're wrong about him we're wrong.
For wavering
+ Show Spoiler +I’m trying to show you through my actions that I have pro-town goals. It’s disheartening to be in this position after becoming emotionally invested in the game - that is my explanation for wavering today. I thought about doing what obvious did and I understand why he just walked away. It's incredibly frustrating to be attacked when I'm trying to help the town make progress by encouraging discussion.
In regards to asserting my noob and using "wait and see".
+ Show Spoiler +On July 16 2012 10:07 calgar wrote:You make a very interesting inference there, hapa. You infer that my lack of mafia history on TL equates to newbieness. I have in fact played many games of Mafia before and am not a newb. I don’t plan to use newbieness as any kind of excuse for my actions. I clarify to hapa that I am not a newb and am not planning on using it as an excuse. It doesn't make sense for me to hint at being newb and then directly assert the opposite and that I don't plan on using that excuse in my response. The “wait and see” comment doesn’t mean a thing. Obvious was lynched for similar reasons. That is proof that taking comments out of context is no measure of mafia. My defense for that portion of the conversation, rather than was is paraphrased and put into my mouth, is that I am town because I am making an effort to talk. It would have been very easy for me to disappear after showing up briefly, responding to hapa’s attack, satisfying him with a good answer, and then lurking much more like several other players in the thread have. jingle sums this up with "you're just talking, not doing anything productive". What is my next post, in tacit response to this? I call tube out and eventually get him to become a more active poster.
My voting
+ Show Spoiler +My goal in voting D1 was to try and lynch someone else besides obvious.660 since I read him as town. I swung between people I thought were good targets to try and sway the vote away. On July 20 2012 01:45 JingleHell wrote:
2: Second part of day 1: He jumps on the tube wagon, shifts votes everywhere, and "me-too"s onto myself and Hapa incessantly. There's so much excessive exaggeration here that it blows my stance out of proportion. I "jumped on the tube wagon" to pressure him into talking more. It worked - and guess what, I read him town and backed off. I me-too on hapa because I read him strongly town. I tried to work with him to lobby votes to save obvious.660. Calls for votes on perfection, but doesn't vote for perfection himself until Hapa does. He has his vote on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest scum read quite often. This is false. I was the first person to vote for iamperfection. My strongest read is iamperfection and 2/3 of my votes were for him. How is this "on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest read on"? I changed to YourHarry in an effort to swing momentum over to him to save obvious. I swung it back to my original target after harry defended accusations and I thought the case was stronger on iamperfection once again.
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You're still using ad homs and invoking emotion as a response to me. You've started to sort of mention the things I brought up, but not properly. You're accusing me of taking you out of context, yet I'm not. I'm taking you in context of the thread as a whole, at the times of posts.
Your original vote on perfection has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you then jumped from one "strong read" to another, with your votes frequently being directly contradictory to your "strongest read", up until you got Hapa to shift a vote, at which point you finally voted for perfection.
Let's face it. You spend more time in your response here asserting that "Since I'm town - WIFOM". That's not an explanation for scummy behavior, that's asserting that people should trust you because you say so.
You keep pointing fingers back to Obvious to make my case against you look weaker, but you're ignoring that the case against him was a result of his own actions. Was I a major factor in the case? Yes. Do I regret the needless loss of a town vote? Absolutely. Does that make it my fault that he appeared scummy? No. His posts were his downfall, not mine. Your posts are what have me breathing down your neck, and even while putting up this facade of a response, you continue in your need for personal attacks.
You didn't exactly make the post saying you'd been in multiple games elsewhere until Hapa called you out on subtly playing the noob card. A reaction doesn't change the post itself.
Overall, you're starting to do a credible job of explaining yourself. I can at least accept your explanation for most of the "me-too" attitude, although I do find it foolish to have a strong town read that early in D1. I'm not exactly at the point of no return here, I just want answers, which you've withheld, while acting like it would be some sort of waste to respond, even when it's anything but. If I can stop arguing with Hapa outside of case arguments, surely you'd be able to believe I'd be able to back off on a case I'm actually persuaded is bad.
Hell, the Obvious case, IIRC, you said you saw where I was coming from, but didn't draw the same conclusions. That's a far cry from how you're treating it now, trying to weaponize it against me.
You know what, just for giggles, I'll even give benefit of the doubt on the vigi hit thing, since the numbers at least seem like a reasonable assessment, and it comes down to a gut feeling on whether it's just too damn easy of a target.
The breadcrumb and hapa thing, of course, is purely circumstantial and WIFOM, and only applicable if you flip scum, so it doesn't need to be part of your defense, really.
So, if you can just explain the scummy behavior in your responses to me, and finish with the shortcomings I've already outlined, I'll move on to someone else happily.
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Cant respond in detail yet, but Calgar, where is the breadcrumbed 'JK' you referred to?
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Wait, actually, the numbers on the vigi kill are both from the perspective of him being scum. You say if he flipped town, e see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2
I can assume that's a brain fart, but it would be 6:3 going into today, had vigi hit him and he was town. I still kinda see the reasoning, but based off of too little evidence like I said.
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I've scanned both your filters, where is this JK coded message?
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On July 20 2012 08:25 Fulla wrote:
I've scanned both your filters, where is this JK coded message?
Are you looking for Jingle's or calgar's? I'm still waiting for calgars.
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The last one took me over an hour, here we go again. I’ve responded a little out of order but everything is there.
If you can just explain
+ Show Spoiler +So, if you can just explain the scummy behavior in your responses to me, and finish with the shortcomings I've already outlined, I'll move on to someone else happily. Well, I’ll explain honestly. The interpretation is up to you. When you dismissed my last night’s post and said you wouldn’t stoop to my level you made me feel powerless. I didn’t understand what you expected from hypothetical townie calgar and thought you had robbed me of my voice. I read you as town but I couldn’t completely stop emotion from getting into my posts. I said in my previous post, for better or worse and however silly, that I’ve become emotionally invested. I’m posting today after encouragement in a different state of mind. I said it blindsided me – this added more to the emotion. If you sense a different player from yesterday to today – this is why.
Ad homs and emotion
+ Show Spoiler +You're still using ad homs and invoking emotion as a response to me. You've started to sort of mention the things I brought up, but not properly. You're accusing me of taking you out of context, yet I'm not. I'm taking you in context of the thread as a whole, at the times of posts. I feel that your overall tone in posting is overly aggressive, condescending, and you have offended me outside the game. I wasn’t kidding about considering giving up and walking away like obvious did - perhaps my skin is too thin. I'll drop that, there's nothing really to discuss about it. That is part of the reason for my tone in response. Because you show signs of a cooler tone and logic I will reply again. As I already explained in my previous post, I have let frustration leak into my posting. That is another reason for the tone.
Just for giggles
+ Show Spoiler +You know what, just for giggles, I'll even give benefit of the doubt on the vigi hit thing, since the numbers at least seem like a reasonable assessment, and it comes down to a gut feeling on whether it's just too damn easy of a target.
The breadcrumb and hapa thing, of course, is purely circumstantial and WIFOM, and only applicable if you flip scum, so it doesn't need to be part of your defense, really. Alright, we’ll drop these two.
WIFOM
+ Show Spoiler + Let's face it. You spend more time in your response here asserting that "Since I'm town - WIFOM". That's not an explanation for scummy behavior, that's asserting that people should trust you because you say so. Didn’t you say something along the lines of all arguments can be boiled down to WIFOM? What do we really have as hard evidence as town? We know two flips are certainly town – one produced no information and the other produced some. That’s not much objective information to go off of. Everything else is subjective – how else can I defend myself? I feel like I have acted in a pro-town manner, though. Regardless of what my role is, there is that behavior that is helpful to one side that can be analyzed. You didn't exactly make the post saying you'd been in multiple games elsewhere until Hapa called you out on subtly playing the noob card. A reaction doesn't change the post itself. I think this goes along with the WIFOM. It is what it is; you interpret it how you will. Whatever I say will be WIFOM about it.
My voting continued
+ Show Spoiler +Your original vote on perfection has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you then jumped from one "strong read" to another, with your votes frequently being directly contradictory to your "strongest read", up until you got Hapa to shift a vote, at which point you finally voted for perfection. I felt good about my original vote. Then no one else added on and the votes went up to 4 or 5 (don’t care to sort out the exact timing) vs. just 2. The activity seemed poor to me so I didn’t give the case my all. The logic: YourHarry had 2 votes with me and iamperfection had one. If I switched to iamperfection before I knew that hapa would then it would still be at 2 votes – this doesn’t serve my stated purpose. When hapa responded several minutes later and switched it was then beneficial to switch because it made the count go up to 3 votes. There was a chance hapa might have said “no, I’m sticking with harry”. Switching wouldn’t have mattered then because each had one vote without my support.
On obvious.660
+ Show Spoiler +You keep pointing fingers back to Obvious to make my case against you look weaker, but you're ignoring that the case against him was a result of his own actions. Was I a major factor in the case? Yes. Do I regret the needless loss of a town vote? Absolutely. Does that make it my fault that he appeared scummy? No. His posts were his downfall, not mine. Your posts are what have me breathing down your neck, and even while putting up this facade of a response, you continue in your need for personal attacks.
Hell, the Obvious case, IIRC, you said you saw where I was coming from, but didn't draw the same conclusions. That's a far cry from how you're treating it now, trying to weaponize it against me. My only point is that I considered myself aligned with obvious and that we have played similar games. He agreed on my suspicion of iamperfection. Yes it was a result of his inactions and then failure to defend. I’m not sure what your issue is here. I think it’s that I’m giving you a hard time for his death because we disagreed on the read. Is that the case? I can try to respond more if I’m on the right track. If not could you clarify?
Credible job
+ Show Spoiler +Overall, you're starting to do a credible job of explaining yourself. I can at least accept your explanation for most of the "me-too" attitude, although I do find it foolish to have a strong town read that early in D1. I'm not exactly at the point of no return here, I just want answers, which you've withheld, while acting like it would be some sort of waste to respond, even when it's anything but. If I can stop arguing with Hapa outside of case arguments, surely you'd be able to believe I'd be able to back off on a case I'm actually persuaded is bad. Glad you think so. All I have to go off of is reads – my style is to play a little more trusting then you. It’s risky but I like to think I have allies that I’m working with rather than trusting absolutely no one. As to the “waste to respond” attitude, see my sappy earlier bits about wavering and my last post.
My breadcrumb in response to jingle
+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 07:50 Hopeless1der wrote:
Cant respond in detail yet, but Calgar, where is the breadcrumbed 'JK' you referred to? It’s in the silly bit about reckless animals. Two capitalized letters and the rest is lower case. If you’ll notice I always capitalize, and reverted to my normal writing style immediately after the “secret message” paragraph that started the post.
Math
+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2012 08:03 JingleHell wrote:Wait, actually, the numbers on the vigi kill are both from the perspective of him being scum. You say if he flipped town, Show nested quote +e see him flip town and glean what we can from that (nothing). We move on to lurkers/suspicious. 6:2 I can assume that's a brain fart, but it would be 6:3 going into today, had vigi hit him and he was town. I still kinda see the reasoning, but based off of too little evidence like I said. You’re right, I was riled up and accidentally typoed there. It got a little confusing bouncing back between the scenarios.
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Jingle, is this your the breadcrumb post? BREADCRUMB
What exactly was your purpose of breadcrumbing at that point?
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Ok, I'm not sure how I've offended you, unless it's by not trusting anyone without reason? This is a cutthroat game. My response about not stooping to your level was directly the result of this post.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 19 2012 09:03 calgar wrote:alright Jingle. you’re a bull in the china shop; an elephant tip-toeing over the piano Keys. i knew; what can i say – you’re like arguing with a brick wall. Your case is weak right now but I’ll grant you a reply. Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 07:57 JingleHell wrote: If Perfection is scum, the calling for a vigi hit was an attempt to earn calgar town credit, and if Perfection is town, he's an easy sell for a mislynch. Wait, what? If he is mafia, then you’re suggesting that I’m mafia and I voted to kill another mafia, to boost my town cred, when you are saying to leave the mafia alive for more questioning? Doesn’t that mean I am currently pushing for a mafia player to get killed, while you are arguing to leave him alive? Explain to me how that makes ANY sense. If he is town, we’ll never really be able to know – see my thoughts on him and why an invest isn’t very useful. Show nested quote +Regardless, Calgar's late in the day effort to "Save" obvious once it became clear saving him would be difficult looks like an effort at town cred. It's heavy WIFOM, but it was a mediocre effort, and too little too late. Certainly not enough to make him look clean to me. You argued to kill a town member, I argued to save him. How does this ‘mediocre’ effort by a vote you caused with a POOR READ reflect guilt on my part? It was clear to me by inactivity and lack of conversation that people were going to stick their vote and not listen. I don’t understand how trying to save the townie made me look more guilty. If hopeless and one vote had swung over, iamperfection could have gotten 5 votes first. Show nested quote +Furthermore, he jumps votes like it's going out of style, and despite pushing his side bandwagon on perfection late D1, he didn't change his vote until he got Hapa onboard with it. Check the timing in the filter. Despite his seeming desperation to "save" obvious by pushing perfection, Calgar left his vote on YourHarry until AFTER Hapa changed votes. What? I jump votes like it’s going out of style to SAVE A TOWN MEMBER. How has this escaped your notice? You have some master vision of my theory crafting and play in order to build credit. Don’t you think these pro-town actions might have a simpler expalantion? I didn’t change my vote until after hapa because I was being resourceful to pool votes to wherever they could go. I thought YourHarry or iamperfection were better D1 lynches so I would have voted either to save obvious. I switched because we got a third onto iamperfection and it looked plausible that we might swing it over. Show nested quote +Go back to the very beginning of D1, he was pointing to his lack of history to analyze, and hoping to cast doubts on the various methods people can use to spot scum. He was actively spreading the seeds of doubt for any analysis that could be directed his way. Your language is much more cloudy and less straightforward than mine. WTF do you mean with “seeds of doubt”. Why are you speaking like you’re a poet? Your previous argument was based on suspicious words like “under the bus”. Where did that get you? Show nested quote +This second one casts huge WIFOM type doubts around, he can point to it later as needed. "See guys, I even said back then we should avoid watching this stuff". I’ve voluntarily chosen to be in the spotlight. This is a bad play for mafia – it’s even in the advice guide. Sooner or later you can’t keep up your town cred by making pro town votes (like trying to save a myslynch from you). WIFOM, whatever. Show nested quote +Also, Calgar was, at first, one of the people calling me scummy for saying we don't have sufficient info for a vigi kill to feel really safe. When Hapa agreed, I'm suddenly not on Calgar's scumlist in his recent post? Again, "me-too"-ing on Hapa. I’ve never called you scummy. You’ve never been on my scumlist. I read you as strongly town. I’ve said so before, check my filter. I called you out there because your reasoning was stupid. You won’t agree because you are stubborn. That’s just what we have to deal with in a thread that includes you. I'll let it slide because sometimes townies don't always make the best calls (obvious). Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 06:42 JingleHell wrote:
And frankly, I don't expect Obvious to be a mislynch. I would imagine you don't think I'll be a mislynch, either? @YourHarryCare to respond to anything? Nice OMGUS also. You were joking about defending me earlier. Asking people to claim? There's #12 on my list. "I do not want to disclose that right now." --> anti-town play. #13
Can you not see where that's an entirely different type of game than I was trying to play? Quite a few rude comments in there for just getting called out for things I saw as shady. I have no qualms responding rudely to someone who tries to make a "case" against me via ad homs, or someone I dislike (as we've seen) but I try to keep my cases off this level of play, because it just turns into a clusterfuck for all involved. See D2 of XVIII where I was scum and a response like this from a townie turned what was supposed to be "Hey look I'm visible" pressure into an OMGUS "Someone dies" scenario. So I strongly avoid getting dragged down into that kind of argument where real cases are concerned, they're an utter debacle.
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On July 20 2012 08:45 YourHarry wrote:Jingle, is this your the breadcrumb post? BREADCRUMB What exactly was your purpose of breadcrumbing at that point?
I've already explained this. However, the specific value depends on a few factors, also available in the explanation. I think it was discussed 8-9 hours ago.
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On July 20 2012 08:46 JingleHell wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how I've offended you, unless it's by not trusting anyone without reason? This is a cutthroat game. My response about not stooping to your level was directly the result of this post.
Can you not see where that's an entirely different type of game than I was trying to play? Quite a few rude comments in there for just getting called out for things I saw as shady. I have no qualms responding rudely to someone who tries to make a "case" against me via ad homs, or someone I dislike (as we've seen) but I try to keep my cases off this level of play, because it just turns into a clusterfuck for all involved. See D2 of XVIII where I was scum and a response like this from a townie turned what was supposed to be "Hey look I'm visible" pressure into an OMGUS "Someone dies" scenario. So I strongly avoid getting dragged down into that kind of argument where real cases are concerned, they're an utter debacle. I understand what you mean and apologize for my tone. I feel that I've explained as much as I can and don't really have anything else to say about it.
##Vote iamperfection
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calgar, did you get a notification from the mod that you were RB/jailed?
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calgar, if you don't answer this immediately, this is going to make you very suspicious.
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For the time being, I'm sufficiently satisfied with Calgar to shift my vote to Perfection. Should that work out as a green flip, Calgar will be included in my reevaluation, but for now he's explained himself sufficiently to see how his read on perfection comes up.
##Unvote
##Vote iamperfection
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On July 20 2012 09:00 YourHarry wrote:
calgar, if you don't answer this immediately, this is going to make you very suspicious. I didn't receive a notification.
Under what conditions is someone notified if they are RBed/Jailed?
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Calgar, when did you notice JingleHell's breadcrumb?
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You will not be notified if you have been blocked, only that your action has failed (if you have one). My apologies I forgot to add this to the OP, I know it is a little different so if you want me to notify people if they are blocked, please say so in thread. I feel like a dumbass right now 
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If someone asks a question to mod in QT or via PM, would you answer them via QT or PM?
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Or can mod only answer questions in this thread?
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EPT
