EPTIf you can explain to me how that makes me scummier than him, I'd love to hear it.
Newbie Mini Mafia XXI - Page 36
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
If you can explain to me how that makes me scummier than him, I'd love to hear it. | ||
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iamperfection
United States9642 Posts
On July 19 2012 07:30 calgar wrote: about iamperfection: The problem is that, as far as I’m concerned, we’re already at the end of the road. He’s either mafia or a bad townie. Watching him post more bad reads, contradictions, and poor logic (which he continues to do) isn’t going to change any of that. He’s already crazy suspicious, what is more dirt on him going to do? It’s still back to the basic problem of whether or not he’s just a bad town. An invest on him is risky because he is a likely candidate for the role change cloak since so much attention is targeted at him. I've got to laugh and shake my head at "ill be back later tonight" that he said. Did he consider the chance of being killed? So sure that he won't be? Probably right, since he's so anti-town. Even if he was town they wouldn't touch him. His haphazard play would be poor for both town and mafia so it's a tough call. I think the plan going forward was to have me killed by vig and since im still alive go after me for the mis lynch. I think the would use the excuse that "im a bad investment" would be the rallying call when i flip town. On July 18 2012 11:16 JingleHell wrote: EBWOP: To be more clear, I'm not a vigi, but the way I see that, Perfection is too easy of a target. If I was a scum, Iamperfection (If we play hypothetical that he's a townie) would be easy to convince a vigi to shoot. Far too easy. We know his activity sucks. As it is, if he doesn't get NKed, we have almost 3 full days before deadline to try and force him to defend himself. If, by then, he hasn't, he deserves what he gets. But a vigi shot, that's easy to sell, could be a disaster if he's just inactive. I'm all for everyone stacking votes on him come daytime, at least until he starts talking. Calgar, would you feel comfortable suggesting a vigi shot on him if we came to a consensus that if it flipped him town, you were next in line for a lynch? I think they would use jingles own comments against him. Stating that i was a bad investment and that i deserved what i got through bad play. If i got killed by vig or then was the target of the mis lynch he would have been able to play it off easily I think the mafia has been caught off guard by jingles claim and have resorted to logical fallicies in order to defend each other between hapa and calgar. I havent seen any suggestion by hapa and calgar in the last few pages of who we should be actively going for instead or if they have any new reads to go on they simply have resorted to attacking jingles defense. If calgar thinks im scum has he simply forgot that he should be scum hunting. If im this blatant scum read why hasent he tried to push with some more evidence. Im not buying his defense. ## vote calgar | ||
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iamperfection
United States9642 Posts
On July 20 2012 01:10 YourHarry wrote: Hapha is town. Dont waste post 300 thats an important one | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On July 20 2012 01:24 iamperfection wrote: --SNIP-- I think the mafia has been caught off guard by jingles claim and have resorted to logical fallicies in order to defend each other between hapa and calgar. I havent seen any suggestion by hapa and calgar in the last few pages of who we should be actively going for instead or if they have any new reads to go on they simply have resorted to attacking jingles defense. If calgar thinks im scum has he simply forgot that he should be scum hunting. If im this blatant scum read why hasent he tried to push with some more evidence. Im not buying his defense. ## vote calgar I"ve made it very clear that I want YourHarry lynched. Hell I even posted a link to my when Fulla mentioned his suspicions of YourHarry. If you're going to fire accusations, atleast READ damnit. As for Calgar, he's made it clear that he wants you dead - need he say it more? I mean hell, we have 30+ hours until the lynch deadline and you're blaming people about not pushing cases? | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On July 16 2012 08:54 calgar wrote: The town benefits from clarity, transparency, and direction, so I’ll try my best to encompass these into my posts. Please call me out, for whatever reason, if you notice that this isn’t the case. Clarity, transparency and direction. Keep these three things he wishes to provide in mind when reading his posts. 1: Early play: he plays the noob card subtly, and comments about having no meta. He also says, essentially, that scum are probably too smart to make big, visible, blatant mistakes. This is shortly followed by the "Wait and see" line of posting, where his defense boils down to "I swear I'm not scum, so you must just be illogical." 2: Second part of day 1: He jumps on the tube wagon, shifts votes everywhere, and "me-too"s onto myself and Hapa incessantly. Calls for votes on perfection, but doesn't vote for perfection himself until Hapa does. He has his vote on someone other than the various people he calls his strongest scum read quite often. 3: Night 1: He calls for a vigi hit on perfection, until Hapa agrees it's too early, then backs off. Still playing "me-too", and easily shifting his self-assuredness. 3: D2: Dismisses my huge case against him as being too long to bother with, and accuses me of digging too deep for subtlety, even though early in D1 he said that blatant scum tells were probably just clumsy town play. Uses a combination of ad hominem attacks and witty remarks about my rhetoric to gloss over having no response to the actual case against him. Again, this is just the condensed part, independent of my possible follow-on suspicion against Hapa. That will only gain credence if Calgar flips scum based on the evidence against him. Please go back and read the un-summarized version for supporting quotes and additional shady behavior. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
Jingle, I am suspicious for pointing out the reason why scums targeted Evul. I also think that targeting Evul does not make sense AT ALL. Which brings me back to my third reason that I wanted to talk about earlier. Evul was about to get replaced out and there was no hint that he was a power role, so why target Evul? The only other explanation is: they targeted Evul to strictly to shift suspicion on other players in this game. I also, like Jingle, thought that Hapha or calgar would be NK'ed, at least targeted. Not only people had strong town reads on these two players, on Day 1, which would make them good targets. But also from my perspective, I thought scum would try to target Hapha or calgar to support Day 2 lynch in me. This is because they were the two players who expressed strong suspicion of me on Day 1, so the story could be written that scum Harry wanted one of them dead. Combining these two things, even if Evul wanted to shift suspicion on other players, I thought it would still be better for scums to target Hapha, for example, to strongly push for Harry lynch. But the other explanation, posed by Evul, is original - that both Hapha AND calgar are scums. And scums thinking in this way, then, their night action would make sense if they can somehow establish that Evul NK = Hapha Calgar scum. Of course, I am not denying that townie is also capable of this kind of thinking. But I think this still renders some evidence that Jingle is more likely to be scum than before because his way of interpreting Evul's death makes sense in terms of mafia's motive. In addition, Hapha, do you think this game matches Jingle's meta last game? | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
On July 20 2012 00:01 JingleHell wrote: Remember, Hopeless, you seemed to like my case against Calgar. I'm not guaranteeing that Hapa is scum. What I am doing is saying that if Calgar is scum, Hapa may well be scum too. This just provides a chunk of evidence that isn't in how I read a post. Although you calling it so visible seems to really hurt Hapa's comment about scum may or may not have seen it, wouldn't you agree? I still agree with your case, I'm just pointing out that if the scum actually picked up on the breadcrumb and considered taking out Hapa, why would they NOT consider you seeing as you have a blue role. Your underlying suspicions have significantly less merit if you flip blue because the kill will be seen more as a rolehunt instead of killing to cripple towns analysis potential. If Hapa wants to suggest that scum aren't looking for blue roles, let him. Any number of things MAY have happened, but I still expect 1 of 3 scum to have picked up on it and point it out in the QT. I'll eat my hat if its not in the QT at the end of the game. and if you scum bastards edit it out of the QT afterwards, I hate you @Hapa, if scum did see it and didn't shoot Jingle then WIFOM. That's all the reasoning I need to explain why scum might have done something. If that doesn't fly with you, then this is going to fall on deaf ears no matter what I say. You're usually the one pushing for mafia-oriented motives, and keeping a vocal townie who has made the wrong reads is very valuable to scum. However, only the scum know whether our reads are correct. They have the information and the opportunity to manipulate us using it. Vote: iamperfection I want to see calgar's conviction to stay alive here. Let's see you either convince Jingle of your innocence or iamperfection's scumminess. OTHERWISE I'M VOTING FOR CALGAR. Seriously, I plan to sheep Jingle today regarding the decision on voting for calgar. If Jingle removes his vote, I'll learn to think for myself again. There is too much suspicious dialogue between Jingle, Hapa and calgar for me to make a good read, and I believe Jingle's breadcrumb, so he's the one I'm going to follow. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
On July 20 2012 00:33 JingleHell wrote: I personally will be doing this: ##Vote Calgar Until and unless Calgar stops trying to dismiss my case against him as "too long" (too much evidence, lolwut?) and actually responds to it. And I already outlined my suspicion that calgar is scum. So, if I am right, then above post also makes JingleHell not because he is simply bussing calgar, but because he is leaving room for him to change his mind if calgar comes back to defend himself. In addition, I have to go check to read the post Jingle's "breadcrumb" post, but if other people's narrations of what happened is correct, Calgar was the one player who "deciphered" Jingle's breadcrumb. This also is consistent with calgar & JingleHell scum team, who have QT. | ||
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YourHarry
United States1152 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On July 20 2012 02:00 YourHarry wrote: And I already outlined my suspicion that calgar is scum. So, if I am right, then above post also makes JingleHell not because he is simply bussing calgar, but because he is leaving room for him to change his mind if calgar comes back to defend himself. In addition, I have to go check to read the post Jingle's "breadcrumb" post, but if other people's narrations of what happened is correct, Calgar was the one player who "deciphered" Jingle's breadcrumb. This also is consistent with calgar & JingleHell scum team, who have QT. Actually, I've been consistently using that wording when trying to get someone to respond. I wasn't planning to vote this early off of mostly my own case, but since he was refusing to defend himself, I was hoping to pressure him to do exactly that. I also don't plan to shift my vote off him unless there's overwhelming reason to do so. Track my suspicions on him, and if he flips red, revisit this theory. Unless we're going to go back to the silly sacrificial lamb strategy that I think nobody has any respect for, or interest in (who wants to win by not playing?), I don't think me going for Calgar's throat will still look scummy later. | ||
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
Jingle is CONFIRMED town? (Jailor). This changes my thought process alot. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
However, if I get NKed and flip blue, it adds a lot of weight to my case. | ||
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drwiggl3s
Canada167 Posts
As for Calgar, he was harsh pushing for iamperfection. Perhaps iamperfection is town and so mafia were happy to just let Calgar continue his case into D2? Or perhaps Calgar is the "obviously town acting" mafia scum you were talking about. Either way, Mafia killed Evul. A lurker, who was going to be replaced. Netting us literally 0 information we can use, other than WIFOM. For my reads right now, I wouldn't mind testing the waters with a Calgar lynch. Getting one of the major players out of the way and see what he flips. This could tell us a lot about iamperfection as well as others who are resistant (or soft defending) a Calgar lynch. | ||
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 01:53 Hopeless1der wrote: You aren't going to decide for yourself who to lynch D2? This is what the game is all about, it's the crux; why are you playing?I want to see calgar's conviction to stay alive here. Let's see you either convince Jingle of your innocence or iamperfection's scumminess. OTHERWISE I'M VOTING FOR CALGAR. Seriously, I plan to sheep Jingle today regarding the decision on voting for calgar. If Jingle removes his vote, I'll learn to think for myself again. There is too much suspicious dialogue between Jingle, Hapa and calgar for me to make a good read, and I believe Jingle's breadcrumb, so he's the one I'm going to follow. Let's put all the complicated theories aside for a second. Have I managed to help the town at all with any of my actions. Has iamperfection helped the town with any of his actions? Who would you lynch of the two if one has and one hasn't? | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On July 20 2012 05:43 calgar wrote: You aren't going to decide for yourself who to lynch D2? This is what the game is all about, it's the crux; why are you playing? Let's put all the complicated theories aside for a second. Have I managed to help the town at all with any of my actions. Has iamperfection helped the town with any of his actions? Who would you lynch of the two if one has and one hasn't? What are we calling helping the town? What have you done that's demonstrably pro-town, and not just pro-you? Have you confirmed a townie? Been confirmed townie? Made a solid case? Defended yourself against a case? Hell, you complained about me having "too much" against you, and then ignored the concise, summarized version. If my case is as weak as you say, you should be able to put it to bed easily, which would be more pro-town than ignoring it for being too much. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
On July 20 2012 05:43 calgar wrote: You aren't going to decide for yourself who to lynch D2? This is what the game is all about, it's the crux; why are you playing? Let's put all the complicated theories aside for a second. Have I managed to help the town at all with any of my actions. Has iamperfection helped the town with any of his actions? Who would you lynch of the two if one has and one hasn't? I'm going to put faith into my town read of Jingle and rely on his reaction to your (lack of) defense to determine whether or not I vote for you. I'm giving you multiple ways to get out of being voted. Either push for iamperfection's lynch properly, or post a legitimate defense. Based on my reads, I think iamperfection looks scummier, BUT I also believe that Jingle's breadcrumb is legit and that he is committed to his vote against you. If you cannot convince him to Unvote you, I'm comfortable switching my vote to you, and I'm making this as plain as I possibly can. There is no subterfuge or hidden meanings. Get yourself Unvoted by Jingle or I will vote for you calgar. If you don't think I'm playing the game, I completely disagree. I'm sheeping my town read instead of pushing my scum read. I don't think that's anti-town, as I've made my input on both cases and still have the opportunity to add more later. Its still a play using the information contained within this thread and I still had to make my own decision to commit to this course of action. I've laid out my reasoning that I might switch votes very early and shown the precise event that would cause me to switch. If the town finds my reasoning invalid, I expect to hear about it, and I am ready to defend my actions further if required. Laying aside the complicated theories, WIFOM. Present a defense you lazy bastard or you don't get any more prune juice. | ||
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On July 20 2012 06:12 Hopeless1der wrote: His stated burden of proof is "overwhelming reason". How can any defense, no matter how skillful, meet that standard? It's a forgone conclusion in my eyes.I'm going to put faith into my town read of Jingle and rely on his reaction to your (lack of) defense to determine whether or not I vote for you. I'm giving you multiple ways to get out of being voted. Either push for iamperfection's lynch properly, or post a legitimate defense. Based on my reads, I think iamperfection looks scummier, BUT I also believe that Jingle's breadcrumb is legit and that he is committed to his vote against you. If you cannot convince him to Unvote you, I'm comfortable switching my vote to you, and I'm making this as plain as I possibly can. There is no subterfuge or hidden meanings. Get yourself Unvoted by Jingle or I will vote for you calgar. If you don't think I'm playing the game, I completely disagree. I'm sheeping my town read instead of pushing my scum read. I don't think that's anti-town, as I've made my input on both cases and still have the opportunity to add more later. Its still a play using the information contained within this thread and I still had to make my own decision to commit to this course of action. I've laid out my reasoning that I might switch votes very early and shown the precise event that would cause me to switch. If the town finds my reasoning invalid, I expect to hear about it, and I am ready to defend my actions further if required. Laying aside the complicated theories, WIFOM. Present a defense you lazy bastard or you don't get any more prune juice. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
It's one thing to defend against a case that's based in OMGUS or a logical fallacy that way, but when it's a mountain of your posts straight up not fitting when taken in the context of the thread as a whole at the time, you need to be able to respond to them. You overtly refuse to, aside from attempts to look witty. Is it any surprise other people are getting onboard? If the case is actually compelling in and of itself, you should present a compelling defense. You can only afford to ignore a case when it's weak enough that nobody sees anything in it. It's not like Hapa's attacks on my case were any better than yours, they boiled down to the same range of trying to discredit me and ignore the case itself. | ||
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Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
Why are you playing? | ||
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