EPTBastard Mafia 2 - Page 86
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On May 30 2012 17:30 Forumite wrote: As a 3rd Party, town-friendly 3rd-party but still, in Mafia LV, I got to thinking, how much should selfish 3rd-party and traitor-roles change the way I balance the game? Should survivors be treated as just another townie when setting up the game, or are they a half townie, or should they be treated as scum when balancing? What about SKs and traitors? On June 05 2012 05:23 kitaman27 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind with traitors is that their value is impacted by the way they are recruited. A traitor who may be accidently shot is less valuable than a traitor who joins the mafia team whenever he is the target of a mafia action. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
 But the thing is it makes no sense for scum xsksc to hold his kill, unless he has no ability (in which case his kill will be RBed). So the logical assumption is that anti-town had a SK, a permanent 1-target framer capability, and a rolecop (3 people in total). From a balance standpoint though, that seems pretty broken even with 3 survivors (still leaves 9 townies, some of them with ridiculously powerful abilities: 2 vigis, a cop, a medic, a RB, the phoenix wright business). So probably another anti-town role exists. Judging by Forumite's comments in the Idea Factory thread, a traitor is likely. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18247 Posts
On June 24 2012 13:17 HiroPro wrote: I suppose I should explain why there's probably a traitor in this setup. I'm pretty sure hyaach is town RB and xsksc is mafia. If somehow, hyaach is mafia and xsksc is town DT, then I'm wrong and I suck But the thing is it makes no sense for scum xsksc to hold his kill, unless he has no ability (in which case his kill will be RBed). So the logical assumption is that anti-town had a SK, a permanent 1-target framer capability, and a rolecop (3 people in total). From a balance standpoint though, that seems pretty broken even with 3 survivors (still leaves 9 townies, some of them with ridiculously powerful abilities: 2 vigis, a cop, a medic, a RB, the phoenix wright business). So probably another anti-town role exists. Judging by Forumite's comments in the Idea Factory thread, a traitor is likely. This is meta-meta! I'm not sure that's even a valid argument, but okay, lets run with it. Then who killed ET on N1? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18247 Posts
So what was the plan all about? Nothing. It was a sham. All I wanted was a night without a kill. I figured xskskc and Hyaach for scum and ghost as an outsider chance. I needed someone that a scum xkskskc or Hyaach would be able to frame believably. We got doubly lucky: we got some good info from the plan as well! If xsksksc is scum, he would know Hyaach is town and would be roleblocking ghost. That leaves him open to not shoot at night and get a mislynch on ghost. However, he needed to return a Hyaach check for this to be completely believable. With the red check, this seems very improbable. If Hyaach is scum, him roleblocking ghost is kinda beside the point, but he has to claim he did, or is immediately lynched: there's no reason for a town roleblocker to block the check on him. However, he could roleblock and claim xskskc is lying if there is a red check. The problem is that I don't see a good reason for xsksc to lie about a red check. Insofar as I can puzzle out we're not at lylo and can afford a 1 for 1 deal. If ghost is scum, then xsksksc's check makes no sense. The only situation in which neither xksksksc nor Hyaach is scum is if there is still a framer in the game. With Maju's flip this just seems unlikely. I will go over xsksksc's and Hyaach's filters again before the lynch, but for the moment it looks like Hyaach is scum. ##vote Hyaach | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
I think he was just being an idiot and didn't think through about what result he should give. | ||
xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
On June 24 2012 17:54 deconduo wrote: I think he was just being an idiot and didn't think through about what result he should give. Oh. So I'm an idiot as well as scum now, that's good to hear. I really wish I had put the same ammount of thought into using my ability as you did, lol. Seriously though, how can you think I'm scum when it'd just be playing against my wincon to claim DT and return an anti-town result on a townie AND not shoot. That reduces my chance of winning to 0, because I would die right after Hyaach flips. What the fuck would possibly motivate me to do all that? I don't get towncred unless he actually flips anti-town, and I miss a night's KP for absolutely zero gain. By faking the anti-town result, I sign a death sentence, and for what? | ||
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Hyaach
Singapore1737 Posts
I'm not scum. A scum xsksc wouldn't kill ghost either. Scum win-con is when scum outnumbers town. Third parties doesn't count. Why kill ghost then? He could get a mislynch on me today, kill someone tonight and try to get a plurality lynch tomorrow. But all these would have been been even faster accomplished had he killed someone last night. I don't know. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On June 24 2012 18:38 xsksc wrote: Oh. So I'm an idiot as well as scum now, that's good to hear. I really wish I had put the same ammount of thought into using my ability as you did, lol. Seriously though, how can you think I'm scum when it'd just be playing against my wincon to claim DT and return an anti-town result on a townie AND not shoot. That reduces my chance of winning to 0, because I would die right after Hyaach flips. What the fuck would possibly motivate me to do all that? I don't get towncred unless he actually flips anti-town, and I miss a night's KP for absolutely zero gain. By faking the anti-town result, I sign a death sentence, and for what? If you are so confident that hyaach is the last scum, then whats your problem with being lynched first? | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On June 19 2012 03:53 Hyaach wrote: Should have refreshed. I played TL LV too. If you read Maju's filter there, its almost the same as what he did here and he turned out scum in that game. The downside I see to Maju's question this game is his lack of stance on House Chezinu. He asked some legitimate questions but lack on a firm stance. That and he needs to get in and post soon or did he get pressured into lurking which ET could strongly claim fits Maju's scum meta in LV too. But ET, meta could only get you so far, while i agree with you on Maju, I have no idea on the metas of the other players here and am lazy to read their previous game. Bottomline, start finding solid case from post in here. On June 19 2012 04:11 Hyaach wrote: I think Maju really needs to get his ass in here. Too much similarity to TL LV. | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
On June 24 2012 19:03 deconduo wrote: If you are so confident that hyaach is the last scum, then whats your problem with being lynched first? I don't have one? He dies regardless. | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:13 xsksc wrote: Sure, but after I flip DT, you'll kill Hyaach. So it doesn't really matter which of us dies first.  | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
Grand, we lynch you today and hyaach tomorrow. Its all good | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
I'm just baffled that you think this is all some clever gambit to buy an extra day so I can use my mysterious power and win. It's a watertight theory. One thing though...I was free to shoot last night. Why didn't I? It doesn't implicate Ghost because I've just claimed Hyaach is anti-town, and it doesn't buy me town-cred. Explain to me why you think scum xsk holds his shot there (without calling me an idiot this time, pretty please) and I'll die a happy man. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18247 Posts
First question: is the bulletproof ability able to be roleblocked? If it is, then second question: Hypothetical situation (I know, there's lots of these) Lets say there's a player named Spooky_123 and he is bulletproof. He gets roleblocked that night, but not shot. Is Spooky_123 notified that he was roleblocked? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18247 Posts
Been going over xksksc's filter. In general I don't think it is nearly as terrible as many people here are claiming. However, some things stand out like a sore tooth. The first has been pointed out by a number of people already. Nisani's case on him was nothing very spectacular and at the time I didn't pay much attention to it, or xk's response, however on reading through again, I completely understand what people's problem with xk's response was: On June 18 2012 10:23 xsksc wrote: I don't think you quite got my point there.. You have contributed fuck all, and you are in no position to point that particular flaw out in everyone elses play. This is not a defense, but an OMGUS. I wasn't convinced by BioSC's defense when someone leveled the same accusation at him, but at least he defended his actions, instead of blindly attacking the person posting the case. Regardless of Nisani's badness, he was justifed in pointing out the lack of xk's contributions. Does xk address that? No, he goes full OMGUS mode. Now, in and of itself, this is not necessarily a scumtell (just a bad play tell), I have seen plenty of townies go OMGUS when they think they've been unjustly accused. However, xk backs up this defense with this: On June 21 2012 14:46 xsksc wrote: You argue that I'm scum because of how I reacted to Nisani's case. You yourself even said the case was bad, why would I risk exposing myself by reacting in such a way, to such a bad case that would never get me lynched? It was a bit over the top admittadly, but I was fucking annoyed by what he said. You said you don't want to argue this issue with me, but it's the core of your case on me... This gives a valid explanation for his defense, but I really really really don't like the bolded part. This looks like scum backpedalling to me. A "scum doing this would be terribad" defense can be used, but only if it wasn't also terribad as town. Trying to spin the original defense as a decent move for town, but bad for scum is really really dodgy. This actually only caught my eye, because he used the same defense more recently. And, in fact, it seems to be a general line in his posts: On June 21 2012 14:54 xsksc wrote: Oh, why would I fake claim DT? I don't see any reason why I would possibly want to do that as scum, lol. I'm going to be shot asap and the mere prescence of another DT in the game means I'm nowhere close to confirmed town. Pretty stupid claim to fake, wouldn't you say? On June 24 2012 18:38 xsksc wrote: Oh. So I'm an idiot as well as scum now, that's good to hear. I really wish I had put the same ammount of thought into using my ability as you did, lol. Seriously though, how can you think I'm scum when it'd just be playing against my wincon to claim DT and return an anti-town result on a townie AND not shoot. That reduces my chance of winning to 0, because I would die right after Hyaach flips. What the fuck would possibly motivate me to do all that? I don't get towncred unless he actually flips anti-town, and I miss a night's KP for absolutely zero gain. By faking the anti-town result, I sign a death sentence, and for what? He uses the same defense for 2 of his other actions: they would be DUMB play for scum. His main line of defense is: scum cannot possibly be derp enough to play the way xkskcd is playing, so xkskkskscd cannot possibly be scum. The main problem with this defense is, in xkskcd's own words (from C9++ mafia): On March 19 2012 05:00 xsksc wrote: The problem is, a newbie scum who messed up would make the same exact defense here. I would like to add that playing completely erratic as scum is something not only newb scum do. While I was going over C9++ I found this enlightening post from xkskskskssc's postgame analysis: On March 24 2012 16:56 xsksc wrote: Hmm. In the post-game of TLXVIII, WBG gave me some pretty helpful analysis about my play. In that game I figured out toad was scum medic, but not a single person listened cause I wasn't vocal enough with my reads, and nobody really had a reason to believe I was town. Finding scum is useless if noone is gonna listen to you, so establishing yourself as town is super important. So with that game in mind, I went into this game with the gameplan of making myself obv town, being open and posting a lot etc etc, so my opinnions would actually have some weight later on. I guess I didn't do too good a job, considering how suspicous slOosh and dirk found me. Oh well. I think sheeping Sandroba was the obvious choice though, pushing my own read (slOosh) would have resulted in a no-lynch which would have been really dumb. Now, I didn't actually read a lot of his filter there, but the first 1 1/2 pages just read incredibly townie to me. That, in contrast to this game (I haven't read xksksk's filter in XLVIII either, but he subbed in, so it's a tricky one in any case): in this game I don't get a town vibe from his filter, with gems like this: On June 18 2012 23:29 xsksc wrote: In this sort of game, I want to kill 3rd party even more, given that to win we have to remove all anti-town elements, which 3rd party/SK definitely falls under. For all we know, there might not even be "pure" scum in this game. Repeat performance by Obi Wan! ![[image loading]](https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/6/18/YujRuN2wbkWwfIa3Tzymtg2.jpg) Finally, I am rethinking the 4F claim deal. I didn't mind him not being up in arms about it, because he DID post a short blurb saying he didn't believe the claim. However, I really dislike his reaction at being pressured on it: On June 22 2012 07:30 xsksc wrote: Is it? One thing I have learned this game is that there are 50 ways to spell xsksc, although I do wonder how you arrived at xaard and xberk.. He doesn't just quote his own post, which he would've done if alarm bells HAD in fact gone off in his head. He questions whether the point is valid. It IS valid and he had an easy out, I just see this as careless play by someone who forgot how he had reacted to 4F's claim, which I can't imagine a real DT doing: he would've had alarmbells going off and been trying to UNDERSTATE his doubt of the claim (due to it being night). When called out on this I feel a real cop would've been far more annoyed and posting his night response. Verdict Scummy scum scum. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18247 Posts
Hyaach <--- claimed roleblocker and has been confirmed as roleblocker. The question is whether he's TOWN roleblocker, though. His play was giving me a null read up until now, but the rolename is more scummy (in GoT mafia: Tyrion was scum) than townie. Additionally, roleblockers are more likely to be given to scum than to town. On the fence here. In fact, I think that overall his play has been that of a bored townie, rather than scum. The only thing that doesn't sit right with me at all is the roleclaim. There are all kinds of things wrong with it: 1. I think it's far more likely to be Tyrion Lannister than Tyrion Lannister. Black would make even more sense, but I'm not getting a 3rd party vibe on him at all. 2. Maju's rolecop doesn't have roleblocker as an option. 3. I think it was Tali who pointed out that a town roleblocker makes little sense in this setup. On the other hand, I see no reason for a scummy roleblocker to roleblock Nisani (unless deadly afraid of the MA mechanic, but it seemed to just be adding to town chaos, so roleblocking the MA was a townie thing to do). Verdict Null, leaning town. Bastard moderators could be to blame for the weird role situation. [b]##unvote ##vote xkskc[/vote] | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
I've never played this badly before, in fact I've never even been close to hanging. I think it was partly due to a mixture of lack of sleep and a hectic schedule, but it's still completely inexcusable - I apologise. Apologies to Nisani as well, for the major OMGUS I gave him. I understand that I need to die today. Acro's case, and my play this game makes me look incredibly scummy. I'll warm the noose for you, Hyaach. PS Maybe it's pointless now, but if you were looking for XLVIII etc, here's the rest of my games : Newbie Mini Mafia - Scum Steamship TLMafia 46 - Town Medic Student Mafia - VT TLMafia XLVIII - VT Election Mafia - Tracker C9++ Mini - VT | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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