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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/myJZ9.png)
*Bluelightz is helping me co-host this game. Any questions can be directed towards him or myself.
Pick Your Poison Mafia
+ Show Spoiler [Important Posts] +
Introduction:
Mafia is an educated guessing game of epic proportions. The objective of the game is to lynch or kill all mafia members before they outnumber the rest of the town. It's much like a game of poker because mafia members are also part of the town during the day and may manipulate the vote to their liking. If the mafia at any time outnumber or equal the townspeople, they win. The town's goal is to lynch all the members of the mafia.
The game is typically very active, so the thread will get big quickly. However, it is essential to read the thread to play the game. If you do not have the time or patience to read the whole thread, do not play. I will not compensate for ignorance.
Rules:
Cheating:
Cheating includes (but is not limited to):
1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information.
2. Ruining the game by doing something like hand out your mafia's member list to the town.
3. Logging on to someone else's account to get their role or looking over someone's shoulder to get their role.
4. Comparing role PM times to determine roles.
5. Posting screenshots of your inbox.
6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host.
7. Getting yourself modkilled to help your team. Your non-majority-decided death may not be used as a bargaining chip.
8. Signing up more than once using smurf accounts.
9. Betting items outside of the game in exchange for in-game benefits.
10. Sharing accounts with other players unless cleared by the host in advance. Otherwise, only you may post on your account.
11. Breadcrumbing the specific phrasing of your role PM. Do not compare the phrasing in your role PM to prove your alignment. You can claim the abilities you have, but you can't use the specific phrasing of your role PM.
12. Posting a false role PM phrased as if you received it from the host. You can still fake roleclaim, but you cannot make it look like you are posting a PM you received from the host.
Cheating is not tolerated here. The punishment will be severe.
Posting:
Mod Font:
This is mod font. It is reserved for moderators. Please do not use it.
Question Font:
This is question font. Use it to ask the moderators questions about the rules. Please do us a favor and read the rules before you ask anything.
Activity:
You must post in this thread once per day/night cycle and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled.
Smurfs:
On April 26 2011 13:22 mikeymoo wrote:
Smurfs must PM the host because TL doesn't allow multiple accounts otherwise. If the host is unaware of smurfs, you (and/or your smurf) can be banned for having multiple accounts.
Spam:
Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here.
Editing:
Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything.
Inappropriate posts:
If you want to post something insulting or inappropriate and know the TL mods would have a problem with it elsewhere, don't post it here. If you do, a host will warn you or modkill you and request that you be banned from future games. The hosts have the final say on what is inappropriate. If you do not like how someone is talking to you, please PM a host, Flamewheel, or Mig before involving the TL staff. If you are unsatisfied with how the situation is resolved, then you can appeal to the TL staff normally.
Reporting posts:
The report button is a nice feature for regular TL, but not for this forum. We prefer to deal with things in house if possible to avoid confusion among the TL staff. If you have a problem with how someone is posting, talk to the host, co-host, Flamewheel, or Mig before using your report button. Please do not use your report button for anything other than inappropriate posts which you feel are not being dealt with adequately.
Ban discussions:
Please wait until this game is over to talk about modkills and bans resulting from this game.
Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.
This also means that you cannot leave the game without a good reason without a ban. These situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis. PM your host if you need to leave the game.
You have been warned.
Out of thread communication:
It is common for mafia (and town circles if PMs are allowed) to use a medium outside of TL such as QuickTopics or IRC to communicate during the game. Please be mindful that other players may be more tech savvy than you and they may attempt impersonate members of your team or attempt to infiltrate your chat. You use these media at your own risk.
Voting rules:
1. Voting is done (in a separate thread, located *here*) . Please keep votes there, and only vote there. Do not PM me your vote.
2. Please vote in the following format: ##Vote Kavdragon. Votes not done in the correct fashion will not be counted. I will update vote counts whenever I get the chance.
3. No conditional voting.
4. You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.
5. In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).
6. Voting is mandatory. You may (NOT) abstain.
7. This game follows Extended Majority Lynch. In order for a player to be lynched, they must reach majority before the deadline, or else a no lynch will take place. Majority is #Players alive / 2 Rounded up.
Signups:
This game is open to anyone. Signups will remain open until all spots have been filled.
Game-specific rules:
Modkills:
This game follows the TL Mafia Ban List. If you are modkilled, your punishment will go beyond being eliminated from this game. Please refer to it for questions about your punishment. If you want to use this game to sit out your ban, please PM Flamewheel or post in the Ban List.
Replacements
This game uses replacements. Replacements will be made in the game until night two. If a player is modkilled during the designated time, then they will be replaced by a player on the replacement list.
Clues:
There are no clues.
PMs
PMs are not allowed in this game.
Time Cycle:
This game will follow a (24 hour night/48 hour) day cycle. In case I am not able to post around deadline, any votes after the 48 hour mark will not count and the game will be put on halt until the night post is up. Currently the deadline is 02:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change. Actions/votes will be accepted up to and including the posted time, but not after.
Credits:
Thanks to anyone who has ever hosted a game. This list grows ever longer.
Thanks to everyone who helped balance this game.
If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance!
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Setup information
Town players: 9
Mafia players: 3
Mafia KP: 1
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
During each night phase, as well as the selection phase, all players will vote on a "poison" to go into effect the following day cycle. Each poison may only be selected once. All votes shall be made in the voting thread and a majority is not required for this vote. Ties are broken using standard tie-breaking procedures.
Poisons
-Lynch locks once majority is reached.
-Voting is done using a secret ballot
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote
-The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch
-The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden
-Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch
-The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours
Role Reveals:
Upon death, the role and affiliation of the deceased will be revealed in the thread to all.
Town Roles
1-Shot Cop - Once per game, you may recieve the role and alignment of target player. If you are roleblocked, your shot is refunded
Tracker Follow someone and find out the first person they visited that night. (role abilities supersede alignment based abilities for the purpose of tracking). If a mafia has no role ability and is selected to carry out a kill, they may be tracked to their target.
2-Shot Vigilante - At night during the game you may choose to shoot a player. You have two bullets and may only shoot once per night. If you are roleblocked, your shot is refunded.
Medic - You have the power to save lives. At night if you protect someone they will be able to survive being shot once.
Innocent Child - At any time during the game, you may pm a mod to be confirmed as town.
Mafia Roles
Godfather - On day one, you may select a role to appear as to all role checks. You appear innocent to alignment checks. In addition, you are immune to any tracker checks.
2-Shot Framer - You can target one target per night and make them appear as whatever role and alignment you wish. In addition, you may plant incriminating evidence on a player, making them appear to have visited target player at night.
Role blocker - You may prevent target played from acting at night. Players are informed that they have been roleblocked.
Sample Role PMs
+ Show Spoiler [Vanilla Townie] + Welcome to Pick Your Poison Mafia! You are Vanilla Townie!
You have no powers in the game except voting so far. Remember that the game is in draft phase and you get to pick your role! Any questions you have PM me or bluelightz
You win by eliminating all mafia players
+ Show Spoiler [Blue] + Welcome to Pick Your Poison Mafia! You are a power role!
You will be informed of your role after the selection phase. Any questions you have PM me or bluelightz.
You win by eliminating all mafia players
+ Show Spoiler [Mafia] +Welcome to Pick Your Power Mafia! You are a Mafia Goon!. Your team consists of x, y, and z. Please submit the two roles you would like to give the town within the next 24 hours. You win when town is unable to achieve victory. You may use this quicktopic for communication:
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Player List
1. Sbrubbles
2. Kurumi
3. Zephirdd, the Vanilla Townie, killed night three
4. HiroPro
5. Navillus, the Vanilla Townie, lynched day one
6. prplhz
7. talismania
8. Toadesstern, the mafia goon. lynched day two
9. wherebugsgo, the Vanilla Townie, killed night one
10.Radfield, the Vanilla Townie, killed night two
11. risk.nuke, the Vanilla Townie, lynched day three
12. slOosh the innocent child
Replacements
1.
2. Sinensis
3. deconduo
4.
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This sounds really interesting and I want to play, but will be at a conference all of next week  If it starts late (fat chance of that) I'll definitely /in, but for now I cannot commit
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So town only has 2 PRs?
Also what is this
-Voting is done using a secret ballot
voting is done via PM?
/in
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:52 Zephirdd wrote:
So town only has 2 PRs?
Also what is this
-Voting is done using a secret ballot
voting is done via PM?
/in
Yep yep.
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Can the framer actually only use their power twice, or does that just refer to the fact that they have two abilities? And for their second ability, they can select who visits and who was visited?
/in
Looks like an awesome setup.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:13 HiroPro wrote:
Can the framer actually only use their power twice, or does that just refer to the fact that they have two abilities? And for their second ability, they can select who visits and who was visited?
/in
Looks like an awesome setup.
They can only use their power twice.
For example, one use would be: Kita, red, goon, visits bluelightz
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can town discuss during the selection phase?
and /in
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I would very much like to play in your game kita.
/in
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:24 Navillus wrote:
can town discuss during the selection phase?
and /in
Yessir.
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I am /in as well.
Give me that spot and if I don't out in 3 or 4 days I'm taking it :p
Edit: Holy shit that innocent child looks like a sexy role for me :p
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/in please 
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Just a heads up, we will likely be starting tomorrow evening.
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that's probably fine with me :p
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Will mafia pick which one on their team gets the role or is that randomized?
I don't know if I fully understand the framer role so help me out here. He can visit ONE player during the night and then he can choose what alignment and role this player will show up as to cop. Additionally, he may make it look like the target player visited any other player in the game to the tracker. Do I understand it correctly? Can he visit himself?
Do scum pick a guy to carry out night hits that tracker can see?
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:27 prplhz wrote:
Will mafia pick which one on their team gets the role or is that randomized?
I don't know if I fully understand the framer role so help me out here. He can visit ONE player during the night and then he can choose what alignment and role this player will show up as to cop. Additionally, he may make it look like the target player visited any other player in the game to the tracker. Do I understand it correctly? Can he visit himself?
Do scum pick a guy to carry out night hits that tracker can see?
The person who recieves the mafia role will be randomized.
Yes, that is the correct description from the framer. He may visit himsef.
Yes, the mafia team may select who will carry out their kill.
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Do scum get to vote for what role they're gonna get too or is it only "town"?
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On May 29 2012 07:07 prplhz wrote:
Do scum get to vote for what role they're gonna get too or is it only "town"?
Scum vote for towns role and vice versa
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Do we get to talk during the selection phase?
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On May 29 2012 08:18 Radfield wrote:
Do we get to talk during the selection phase?
On May 29 2012 04:32 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 04:24 Navillus wrote:
can town discuss during the selection phase?
and /in Yessir.
^_^
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
thanks!
During the secret ballot poison, is there a vote count at the end of the day, or just a result?
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Just in case people don't know about this: Don't make some weird plan to massclaim and force me to claim in PTP games. Especially not if I'm tired.
That didn't end up well last time in irc :p
I think kita and prplhz played that game as well lol
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 29 2012 08:22 Radfield wrote:
thanks!
During the secret ballot poison, is there a vote count at the end of the day, or just a result?
Nope, just the result.
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/in! Please I need my mafia fix!
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What happens in the unlikely event that we run out of poisons? Do we get to play without or is it refreshed?
Edit: Nvm I'm thinking epic medic play but it makes no sense.
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Aw, I missed out. I've wanted to play with the innocent child role some time!
/in as a replacement
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People that are not in the game as players or replacements may get free cookies when they join the obs qt (meaning: spam me for obs qt if you want it )
Edit: shit son Im a vulture aww yeah =)
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Damn, this looks good.
/replacement
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damn u all and your 23pm deadlines. I have to wait a whole day for it T_T
WTB deadlines at [unparsable timestamp format]
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On May 29 2012 23:04 Bluelightz wrote:People that are not in the game as players or replacements may get free cookies when they join the obs qt (meaning: spam me for obs qt if you want it )Edit: shit son Im a vulture aww yeah =)
I see your vulture and raise you a DT :D
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
He's got spider mines.... you're in trouble....
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Role PMs will be going out shortly. Please no posting until the game has begun. Thanks!
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Selection Phase
"Today! We, explorers unite!"
"YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!"
"Let's Party!"
"Everybody now dance! Everybody now yell!"
"Ughhhhh..... AM I DRUNK PEWPEL?!!!!?!? AMIDRUNK?!??!!?!?? UGHBGFDHUSGSKUHD"
Anyway, after the festivities the explorers (who recently found something) is soon(tm) going to FINALLY enter a random portal they found, there was some Portal 2 loving guy in the explorers raving everytime about
"PEOPLE! GLADOS FRY US IF WE GO THERE!"
But everyone simply ignored him, even though, he was serious as well. The portal they found was oddly colored blue, making the Portal 2 loving guy rave even more, but, they found something else when they entered it.
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.
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they found a Black Portal! Anyway, from some random tower in the plains a witch was madly giggling about some people FINALLY going into his trap! (note: yes he is a male witch). The fail the witch is, the traps in the portal were decided by the people in it, oh and I forgot to mention, they can't get out. only way is to eliminate the baddies from the group or the baddies eliminating the goodies!
Also, for some reason the baddies could pick some hillarious powers and vice versa, we wish them luck! may the worst man lose!
By the way, don't derp this up, some reporters got dem hidden cameras! we'll be watching you and giggling aside everyone! (note: its being broadcasted in every TV channel till one side wins ;D)
So, good luck!
Credit to bluelightz for the flavor text. (I question his sanity)
It is now the role picking phase. You have less than 23.5 hours to submit your role section votes to Bluelightz and Myself. Additionally, you must vote in the voting thread for the day one poison. Your options include:
-Lynch locks once majority is reached.
-Voting is done using a secret ballot
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote
-The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch
-The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden
-Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch
-The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours
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An idea I had pregame:
1) It is useful to know which mafia role we elect, yet
2) Deciding ahead of time publicly gives them an advantage in picking the town roles.
To get around this quandary, I suggest we encrypt our vote selections for mafia role, and post the encrypted results. I haven't exactly googled but I assume there are websites that do that (I heard this technique referenced in the pick your poison game). Then after the selection phase we post the keys, and we can subsequently tally the votes. The primary usefulness is that it reveals what mafia role is in play. Secondarily it has the benefit of forcing scum to lie, which could be situationally useful later: e.g. we elect GF as scum role with RB in close second. Then someone gets RB'd (for the sake of argument, let's say it's an innocent child for best case scenario). Now we know that someone who voted GF is scum, as the scum can't vote for their own role, and therefore their vote wouldn't count.
Thoughts?
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All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between.
For the poisons, since there are 7 poisons, and without medic saves the longest the game can go is 5 days, certain poisons should never really be considered. "Voting is done using a secret ballot" is really bad for town and is probably the one poison in my opinion that should never be chosen. "The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden" is a pretty bad poison for town and except when the upcoming day is lylo, it shouldn't be voted for.
"The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote" and "Majority+1 is required for a succesful lynch" are two poisons that are really bad in late game scenarios and tolerable early on, so they should be among the first poisons to be picked. One of them should be considered today, personally.
"The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch" and "The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours" are personally ones that are ok later on, but really bad in the beginning as later on people will have strong town reads to vote for mayor and in the case of an innocent child being in the game they are a perfect mayor candidate and day shortening is not as bad when there are less people to analyze and choose from.
"Lynch locks once majority is reached" isn't too bad - people just have to remember to not vote until the very end, just say what you are thinking about voting for when you would normally make a vote, but don't actually do it.
Also, epic bluelightz flavor is back from LIII lol. <3
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K lets do this.
first of all, pick Godfather or Framer as the mafia role. Framer is 2-shot so its hard to be used effectively, as well as forces mafia to pick DT roles for us. Godfather only works on one player and forces a tracker pick. IMO framer is the weaker by a thin margin.
also, pick majority+1 for poison IMO. Its up to discussion, but I believe that is the weakest of the poisons forday 1.
now I'll go to sleep.
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On May 30 2012 11:50 talismania wrote:
An idea I had pregame:
1) It is useful to know which mafia role we elect, yet
2) Deciding ahead of time publicly gives them an advantage in picking the town roles.
To get around this quandary, I suggest we encrypt our vote selections for mafia role, and post the encrypted results. I haven't exactly googled but I assume there are websites that do that (I heard this technique referenced in the pick your poison game). Then after the selection phase we post the keys, and we can subsequently tally the votes. The primary usefulness is that it reveals what mafia role is in play. Secondarily it has the benefit of forcing scum to lie, which could be situationally useful later: e.g. we elect GF as scum role with RB in close second. Then someone gets RB'd (for the sake of argument, let's say it's an innocent child for best case scenario). Now we know that someone who voted GF is scum, as the scum can't vote for their own role, and therefore their vote wouldn't count.
Thoughts?
I think it's a good idea. I had the same issue with the votes for mafia roles, and wasn't sure how to approach it. I don't know how much we can really figure out whether people are scum or not using this, but it's definitely good to have an idea of what mafia role is in the game.
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I think we should have a mayoral election for day 1, or maybe even day 2.
We'll probably have to use it eventually since it looks like one of the least mafia-favored poisons on the list. I don't mind the mafia +1 secret vote as well, as long as we find out where it went after lynch.
If we choose the secret vote for mafia option, do we find out where the vote went after the lynch?
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Yeah we'll have to use it eventually but if it's one of the least mafia favored then we should probably save it for a day when we can't risk anything worse. Personally I think we should either use mafia get a vote or it takes majority +1 today
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On May 30 2012 12:09 wherebugsgo wrote:
I think we should have a mayoral election for day 1, or maybe even day 2.
We'll probably have to use it eventually since it looks like one of the least mafia-favored poisons on the list. I don't mind the mafia +1 secret vote as well, as long as we find out where it went after lynch.
If we choose the secret vote for mafia option, do we find out where the vote went after the lynch?
I don't really agree with having a mayoral election early on. Early on is personally when it's hardest to identify someone as being town, especially in a setup like this, where so much time is going to be spent discussing setup in the beginning. This is when it's easiest for mafia to appear town, without actually doing anything.
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On May 30 2012 11:52 Zephirdd wrote:
K lets do this.
first of all, pick Godfather or Framer as the mafia role. Framer is 2-shot so its hard to be used effectively, as well as forces mafia to pick DT roles for us. Godfather only works on one player and forces a tracker pick. IMO framer is the weaker by a thin margin.
also, pick majority+1 for poison IMO. Its up to discussion, but I believe that is the weakest of the poisons forday 1.
now I'll go to sleep.
I want to discuss this. At first it seemed like a novel idea that had good merits - pick to force scum to choose for us. However, if they have godfather, tracker is a role we don't want, as they can just send their kills through the gf and tracker can only track the other blue maybe.
Roleblocker is an interesting that shouldn't be immediately dismissed in my opinion. If someone is a strong blue, why wouldn't you immediately shoot them?
As for the poisons, I'm in general consensus with HiroPro that you can kind of allot them according to game phase (early, mid, late) to reduce the damage each poison costs.
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well, I think it might be hard to predict, but if we think all the poisons will be used then the optimal play would be to use majority+1 for today.
That option becomes more mafia favored as the days go on, getting to the point where it's an auto loss in any lylo situation.
If we think we can win without using all the options then we should never consider that and use the most town favored ones.
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Also I'm fine with the encrypt idea but to be safe everyone needs to choose a real word or phrase as their key because if scum wanted to really put the work in they could choose a gibberish key, post the result, then figure out what gibberish key would take that result into the other vote, so make the key an actual word or phrase. Also make sure your vote isn't just the name of the position obviously because then they just count the letters, make it something longer like "my vote is for X as mafia position".
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That's not as bad as no flip or secret ballot, I think those should not be used, other than those I think we should get rid of the worst late game ones we have left.
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WBG could you explain how we should approach the use of the mayoral lynch poison when/should we use it?
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So something like this is what I think the poison order should be (I say 1a and 1b because I think they have similar effects early on and are both not too bad):
1a. Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch
1b. The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote
2.Lynch locks once majority is reached.
3.The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch
4.The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours
5.The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden (ok, since it's lylo
NEVER: Voting is done using a secret ballot
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The majority + 1 can be considered the "no-poison" option, as right now majority is defined #players/2 rounded up, opposed to the usual (or at least what I'm used to) #players /2 + 1. We want to reduce the total damage for the poisons, not just pick the least damaging for each day, since as WBG has pointed out, some poisons get stronger as the days go on and picking them early on to avoid having to use them later on is a viable strategy.
I'm thinking about the lynch-lock poison. As long as people are aware the poison is in effect, and we use FOS for D1 to denote intent, and the additional benefit of the selection phase discussions will help avoid the dangers of the poison, which I think gets stronger over time with the potential of dangerous hammers (basically a killer at lylo as one wrong vote = lose).
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So thinking about the difference between "The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote" and "Majority + 1 is required for a successful lynch", I think "The mafia team receives a secret hidden vote" should be the choice for day 1. Why?
"The mafia team receives a secret hidden vote" is personally not that strong when there are an even number of voters (like tomorrow) since votes will generally be at their closest 7-5, assuming that people don't no-lynch. Incidentally no-lynches are REALLY bad in this setup, as it increases the chances of us getting the awful "Voting is done using a secret ballot" poison. In a 7-5 situation, the secret hidden vote is worthless and does nothing.
In a situation with an odd number of voters (which can happen as a result of medic saves, vig shots, no-lynches), eg. 4-3, the secret hidden vote can be powerful as it can lead to a no-lynch.
So I think people should be choosing between these two poisons for tomorrow: "The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote" and "Majority + 1 is required for a successful lynch", but "The mafia team receives a secret hidden vote" is my choice for tomorrow, with "Majority+1" being for day 2.
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I like that reasoning HiroPro, but it makes the assumption that we will be split between 2 candidates. No doubt that mafia will play to the poison, adopting a playstyle that abuses said poisons for their advantage. The secret hidden vote poison is most powerful when there are multiple suspects / lynch candidates, and weakest when the town as a total is consolidated and not near lylo.
I'm inclined to think that D1 is the easiest day to fissure the town and bring up multiple lynch suspects and split votes, and potentially drive the fear of no-lynch into guide town into a mislynch. It will probably be a weaker poison on D2 where it is more difficult to bring up serious lynch candidates, opposed to D1 when bringing up anyone is all cool and no reason for suspicion.
Right now it is even number, and unless we get a medic prot (which is great), then with one lynch and one night kill we will have even number D2. Thoughts on the lynch lock?
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On May 30 2012 13:04 slOosh wrote:
I like that reasoning HiroPro, but it makes the assumption that we will be split between 2 candidates. No doubt that mafia will play to the poison, adopting a playstyle that abuses said poisons for their advantage. The secret hidden vote poison is most powerful when there are multiple suspects / lynch candidates, and weakest when the town as a total is consolidated and not near lylo.
I'm inclined to think that D1 is the easiest day to fissure the town and bring up multiple lynch suspects and split votes, and potentially drive the fear of no-lynch into guide town into a mislynch. It will probably be a weaker poison on D2 where it is more difficult to bring up serious lynch candidates, opposed to D1 when bringing up anyone is all cool and no reason for suspicion.
Right now it is even number, and unless we get a medic prot (which is great), then with one lynch and one night kill we will have even number D2. Thoughts on the lynch lock?
I think you can apply the same reasoning to "majority+1", also right? I think most people will realize that since it's "extended majority lynch" that coming together is essential. I guess it doesn't really make much of difference. You're right; day 2 will probably also have an even number of people. As long as "majority+1" and "secret hidden vote" are the first two poisons chosen, it doesn't really matter to me.
On the "lynch lock", I think it's a good poison to use midway through the game to go from the ok early-game ones that I mentioned to the ok late-game ones. It was used throughout "I'm a cop you idiot", I think?, and it didn't seem to cause too much chaos there. People just have to be disciplined and not vote until close to the deadline. I kind of agree with you that it's probably not best at lylo; that's why I suggested it for day 3. The reason that I don't want "lynch lock" on day 1 is that I feel that majority+1" and "secret hidden vote" get much stronger as the game goes on, so it's best to use them as soon as possible. Like, both of those make lylo impossible to win for town.
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On May 30 2012 13:04 slOosh wrote:
I like that reasoning HiroPro, but it makes the assumption that we will be split between 2 candidates. No doubt that mafia will play to the poison, adopting a playstyle that abuses said poisons for their advantage. The secret hidden vote poison is most powerful when there are multiple suspects / lynch candidates, and weakest when the town as a total is consolidated and not near lylo.
I'm inclined to think that D1 is the easiest day to fissure the town and bring up multiple lynch suspects and split votes, and potentially drive the fear of no-lynch into guide town into a mislynch. It will probably be a weaker poison on D2 where it is more difficult to bring up serious lynch candidates, opposed to D1 when bringing up anyone is all cool and no reason for suspicion.
Right now it is even number, and unless we get a medic prot (which is great), then with one lynch and one night kill we will have even number D2. Thoughts on the lynch lock?
Lynch lock is the same any day it's used. I'm not even sure it's that dangerous late game.
Hiro is right. The two worst poisons late game are secret vote and majority +1 required (which means scum literally can't be lynched if it's 2v1, for instance). Hidden ballot is in the same boat as no flip - terrible unless it's the last day. I think majority + 1 is the best to get out of the way day one. We will have to avoid a no lynch no matter what, and one extra vote shouldn't be too hard to come by. I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
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Lynch lock is definitely not that bad, it's actually the standard vote method on other sites and im used to using it right now, also sloosh splitting it further makes mafia's secret vote less useful not more, with majority lynch rules there's no way with even people they can cause a mislynch by tie and if it's split they just throw another vote into the mix, no way that causes a mislynch, worst case scenario if we choose that day 1 is if we for some reason (and there are almost 0) we want a no-lynch and they push someone over. For that reason i think a mafia vote for today is probably a good choice.
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On May 30 2012 12:24 slOosh wrote:
WBG could you explain how we should approach the use of the mayoral lynch poison when/should we use it?
like personally I have two ideas:
Either we ignore the +1 vote to majority thing (so we basically aim to win the game before day 6) so we choose the relatively "weaker" poisons before then,
OR
We choose the "stronger" poisons that kick in real hard later early, and use things like the mayor election later.
The mayor election puts a lot of power into the hands of one player. In a game of this size it might not be a terrible thing to do on like day 2 or day 3 if we would go for the second route; i..e. choose something like +1 to majority on day 1 so that we can't auto-lose at lylo. Then, when we have a better sense of who is town, we use the mayor thing d2 or d3.
Sure, it means a player who appears town is far more likely to get shot early on (so that they are not available for the mayor election), but it's nice to pigeonhole mafia moves because that makes them easier to predict.
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I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
I kind of disagree with this, because in the voting system that we have, "secret hidden vote" can never change the result from 1 candidate to another; in the worst-case scenarios all it can do is either change it from "highest vote-getter" to no lynch, or from no lynch to "highest vote-getter".
So essentially it's like a secret pardon that only mafia can use, or a secret trap door too I guess. As long as number of voters is even and people actually vote carefully (consolidate on 2 candidates), "secret hidden vote" is not that dangerous.
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hiro is correct.
If we are to use the secret vote it should be on days where we have an even number of players alive.
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On May 30 2012 13:42 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +
I don't like secret vote because in the event that the vote is close and the scum use it to pick one candidate over the other there's going to be a lot of distracting wifom debating why they chose who they chose. Better to just never pick that poison at all.
I kind of disagree with this, because in the voting system that we have, "secret hidden vote" can never change the result from 1 candidate to another; in the worst-case scenarios all it can do is either change it from "highest vote-getter" to no lynch, or from no lynch to "highest vote-getter". So essentially it's like a secret pardon that only mafia can use, or a secret trap door too I guess. As long as number of voters is even and people actually vote carefully (consolidate on 2 candidates), "secret hidden vote" is not that dangerous.
How do you go from highest vote getter to no-lynch with a secret vote? From the rules it seems that if a player gets a majority of the votes first they are going to be lynched no matter what, because ties do not cause a no lynch.
The dangers of secret vote are in the following two scenarios:
1) vote is tied, majority to majority (6v6 on day one, e.g.) Then picking this poison and ending up in this scenario means we might as well have elected mafia mayor, as they decide who gets lynched and wifom ensues. Which means we would have to avoid a 6v6, which means we might as well have just used majority +1 poison.
2)vote is not tied (say 6-5-1), but mafia uses the secret vote early on the player who ends up with 5 votes. Then that player would be sent home. Again to avoid this scenario we aim for 7 votes, which means of course we might as well have used majority +1 poison.
Majority +1 and secret vote are both equally dangerous at the end of the game. If it's 1 mafia v 3 town, majority +1 means all three town have to correctly identify the mafia. Same goes for secret vote. Yet secret vote has the potential to give mafia mayor day one (outlined above) while majority +1 does not.
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On May 30 2012 13:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
hiro is correct.
If we are to use the secret vote it should be on days where we have an even number of players alive.
I'm starting to think I'm mathing incorrectly but isn't it the case that there should always be an even number of players alive during the day phase? The only way there isn't is with a medic protect, assuming we don't no lynch.
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Also framer is the worst role and godfather/roleblocker is equally good. Keep in mind that mafia picks town roles. Best pick for them is either double cop or double vigilante . No way there is an innocent child , doctor is unlikely with power roles.
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Tracker and child are the best roles out there
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ah this is 12 player and not 13 player...
guess it doesn't matter when we use secret vote really then. Probably earlier the better.
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Since the mafia role selection is done in PMs and we're not going to have the voting results or the role itself revealed, scum is free to do whatever. There are only two ways to know for sure what role mafia got and that is 1) to get majority+3 voting for a single role and 2) flip the scum who got the role. talismania's encrypted vote idea should be implemented because it's never going to hurt and it will create some content that we can use for analysis.
Regarding the roles: Godfather is the safest because scum can only use it in two ways (have Godfather carry out night kills or not), this will make for the least confusion among potential town blues. Framer is the worst to give them because it will allow scum (and also townies and blues) to question all checks made by cop/tracker. Role blocker is also potentially useful for scum, especially in connection with claims (and counterclaims and fake claims) which I think could become very important this game.
Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked?
I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it. So I think we should all agree that Godfather is the safest thing we can do because it allows for the least manipulation by scum and the simplest logic always applying for town. The only down side is that potential cop can't always trust town checks but that's very much acceptable. I don't think scum will focus much on the role that they get when they consider the roles that they give us.
Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles?
As for the poison, my thoughts have already been stated. We should try to eliminate poisons that get stronger as early as possible. Majority+1 and secret vote are the best candidates for this. Here are my thoughts (list is malleable):
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot
Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock
Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch
Some people already said that we will be at even number players all game long baring medic saves, but vigilantes could also screw this up. Also, the no flip is not only alignment, it is also role which may suck since we cannot know if we killed the Godfather or just a goon.
@Kurumi Could you give us the reason behind your thoughts?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
K, I'm skipping over the last page or so because I don't have much time, and want to get this said. My apologies if this has already been said.
Roleblocker is the pick we need to send in for mafia. The reason for this is the role we absolutely do not want a combination of framer/gf + cop/tracker. That gives us the least possible advantage in this game. By us publicly sending in the roleblocker, it basically forces mafia to give us 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child. If they decide to give us either cop or tracker that is even better, as we will KNOW that they only have a roleblocker and cannot throw off our investigations.
Roleblocker vs 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child is a fantastic place to be. If they happen to give us tracker or cop that is even better. It is far far better than any other scenario.
Role and Alignment being hidden we want to save until lylo, as at that point it doesn't hurt us. Likewise when only 1 mafia is left.
Voting being Secret we want to save until we have an obvious lynch.
Lynch locks once majority hits does not hurt us at all, and is our freebee.
Mayoral election is our second freebee.
Day cycle shortened to 24 hours we'll use in the lategame, as discussion is slow then anyways.
I'm out of time, more later.
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##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj
ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b
##### End encrypted message
I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia.
I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline.
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On May 30 2012 20:06 Radfield wrote:
K, I'm skipping over the last page or so because I don't have much time, and want to get this said. My apologies if this has already been said.
Roleblocker is the pick we need to send in for mafia. The reason for this is the role we absolutely do not want a combination of framer/gf + cop/tracker. That gives us the least possible advantage in this game. By us publicly sending in the roleblocker, it basically forces mafia to give us 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child. If they decide to give us either cop or tracker that is even better, as we will KNOW that they only have a roleblocker and cannot throw off our investigations.
Roleblocker vs 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child is a fantastic place to be. If they happen to give us tracker or cop that is even better. It is far far better than any other scenario.
Role and Alignment being hidden we want to save until lylo, as at that point it doesn't hurt us. Likewise when only 1 mafia is left.
Voting being Secret we want to save until we have an obvious lynch.
Lynch locks once majority hits does not hurt us at all, and is our freebee.
Mayoral election is our second freebee.
Day cycle shortened to 24 hours we'll use in the lategame, as discussion is slow then anyways.
I'm out of time, more later.
Mafia gets one role not two. Therefore , your entire argument is wrong, roleblocker is the best pick and framer is the worst . Gr is passive so it really depends .
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Nevermind misread it , anyway roleblocker is the best role for mafia , active and can fiddle with everything .
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sup on the RB / framer / GF matter:
I'd say RB looks like the best to give them. There are 2 major advantages I consider:
RB is hard to play. You have to "bluesnipe" with that thing and don't know wether or not you hit a blue. A Framer is kinda easy to do. Just target your buddy or target a townie that was up for lynch and you're good to go. You have a decent chance to screw town that way.
2nd Point is that a framer is way more dangerous than a RB. If we have a RB in play and some guy told us he got rb'ed, awesome, that's it. If we have a framer in play and some cop or tracker checked someone that can possibly end up disastrous.
Just picture C9++ #2.
I'd rather take the more steady and easy to read role. No shenanigans along the lines of "yeah but what if they framed him? What if he is the godfather" that end up splitting town in half pretty much every game. So yeah I'd say Roleblocker is the way to go.
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What about poison 1? The instant majority thing. We could simplly make it no votes before 24 hours and still get the normal 48 hours.
At the same time day1 votes are usually incredible hard to get a majority on a target at all. Again, just picture C9++ #2.
The instant majority doesn't change a thing about it because the question is more or less wether we're able to get enough people follow the same lead and not wether we have multiple people that are everyone is williing to vote in a heartbeat.
So while the #1 poison might be dangerous later on I don't think it's dangerous early on.
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Mornin guys.
I think there's a pretty good advantage in not consolidating votes for the mafia powers. If they're not sure what they'll get, they'll be forced to hedge their bets by giving us one roleblockable role and one information role. Discussing the mafia roles is only good if we can reach a conclusion of which one is best to give them in all cincumstances and I don't think that is the case.
Poisons are relatively straightforward:
-Lynch locks once majority is reached -> not really dangerous at any point, but as Toad pointed out, it would be useful to avoid getting a no-lynch on d1
-Voting is done using a secret ballot -> perfectly fine when only 1 mafia is left or we're at lylo
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote -> not a problem early on
-The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch -> days 2 or 3 (this one shouldn't be a problem at all, actually, as long as we force the mayor to lynch according to a town vote)
-The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden -> ok for lylo, though it might be a bitch if we still haven't killed the mafia PR
-Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch -> not a problem early on
-The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours -> this is actually somewhat of a boon later on, when the discussion tends to slow down.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Roleblocker is by far the most useless role for mafia in this setup. I will gladly explain this in further detail once the roles are picked, but it should be obvious to anyone looking at the setup and considering mafia options. I don't want to say any more than that right now, but there is really no contest.
Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore).
Please send in roleblocker.
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Also, if we force them to give us one roleblockable role and one information role, after we tally our votes, one of our PRs will be 100% sure of his accuracy.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot
Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock
Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch
I agree with this, though I think we should save the secret ballot until we have an obvious lynch target. No need to use it up in the early game.
I vote for majority +1 or giving mafia and extra secret vote for today. The earlier we give them their extra secret vote, the less powerful it is, so we should probably go with that one.
I'm still skim-reading and post-skipping, but I should have time to actually read the thread tonight
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IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right.
Also, scratch the last encrypted code.
+ Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b
I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick.
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I don't like the +1 majority thing at all early on. It's hard enough to get a majority and we should have a day where we can easily choose that majority +1 thing later on when we have a nice read everyone agrees on.
I think it's somewhat dangerous d1 because it's more likely to give us a NL but it's incredible easy to use later on in the right moment giving us about no drawbacks at all.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:41 Sbrubbles wrote:
Also, if we force them to give us one roleblockable role and one information role, after we tally our votes, one of our PRs will be 100% sure of his accuracy.
No, if we don't all decide on roleblocker, and KNOW that we have given them roleblocker, mafia just give us the cop and the tracker, and we can't trust either role because we don't know if there is a gf or framer. Which essentially means that we get no power roles, or worse, we get roles we can't trust.
We NEED to know that they got roleblocker, or else all our checks are suspect, and mafia can talk themselves out of any red check. In every single scenario it is worth giving them roleblocker, and KNOWING that we have given them roleblocker.
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On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick.
give us some time. We're still considering things and right now I think radfield and I are right about the roleblocker. I need to think things over at least a couple of hours or you get like 20 different strings from me :p
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick.
I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting??
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On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting??
So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us.
That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever.
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On May 30 2012 21:52 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:41 Sbrubbles wrote:
Also, if we force them to give us one roleblockable role and one information role, after we tally our votes, one of our PRs will be 100% sure of his accuracy. No, if we don't all decide on roleblocker, and KNOW that we have given them roleblocker, mafia just give us the cop and the tracker, and we can't trust either role because we don't know if there is a gf or framer. Which essentially means that we get no power roles, or worse, we get roles we can't trust. We NEED to know that they got roleblocker, or else all our checks are suspect, and mafia can talk themselves out of any red check. In every single scenario it is worth giving them roleblocker, and KNOWING that we have given them roleblocker.
exactly:
On May 30 2012 21:15 Toadesstern wrote:
[...]
2nd Point is that a framer is way more dangerous than a RB. If we have a RB in play and some guy told us he got rb'ed, awesome, that's it. If we have a framer in play and some cop or tracker checked someone that can possibly end up disastrous.
Just picture C9++ #2.
[...]
A scenario like that is pretty much worst case scenario for us. I don't want to have town argue about wether or not a DT / tracker can be trusted or not because that usually ends up in a shitstorm and we don't get a lot of information out of it at all.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 21:56 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote:On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting?? So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us. That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever.
when we ask everyone tomorrow what they sent in(without encrypting today), all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. If we encrypt are roles today, all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. Encrypting does nothing.
Regardless, It doesn't matter if mafia know they are getting roleblocker, as they still have to give us the roles we want. There is no advantage to mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker.
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Okay I'm convinced by Radfield. Either we get investigative roles we can trust, or we get roles from vigilante/medic/child pool which is pretty sweet. Both child and vigilante can easily confirm themselves and a medic save would extend the game by a full day.
Anyway, I'm voting for role blocker. I was a little worried about role blocker interfering with power roles but the chance of even hitting power roles isn't that big and we shouldn't rely on them too much anyway.
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On May 30 2012 22:01 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:56 Zephirdd wrote:On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote:On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting?? So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us. That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever. when we ask everyone tomorrow what they sent in(without encrypting today), all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. If we encrypt are roles today, all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. Encrypting does nothing. Regardless, It doesn't matter if mafia know they are getting roleblocker, as they still have to give us the roles we want. There is no advantage to mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker.
Having them know for sure they're gonna get roleblocker means they can get whatever combination of town roles they want. Tracker/Vig/Medic and even cop can get messed up. Also, giving them the roleblocker means they can give us Tracker/Medic without fear of the tracker claiming (I think this is the most likely scenario). I'm not saying it's a bad idea to give them the roleblocker, I just think keeping them in the dark is better.
We'll know what role they got by tallying up our votes afterwards. If mafia chooses to mess us up by lying in a way that changes the results, we'll have a huge advantage afterwards if we manage to flip their PR. Think of this example:
GF x Framer x Roleblocker
Tally:
6 x 2 x 4
"Real" Tally:
3 x 2 x 4
If we flip their roleblocker or if someone is roleblocked, we'll know with 100% certainty that the 4 who voted for roleblocker are confirmed town. We won't be sure about the people who voted for framer because 4 x 1 x 4 is also an option, but the 4 confirmed townies is plenty of an advantage (note I'm not taking into account votes from confirmed townies votes, which would make figuring out who's lying easier). Anyway, my point is that mafia will probably not try to mess up the results of the voting, but if they do so it will be a huge risk for them.
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I fully agree we should form a plan for the poisons. As it's already been said some of them are looking very dangerous. One thing I'm not sure about is if we can just remove two because it wont go past day5. If there is a medic save or just for theory for whatever reason the mafia decides not to kill anyone it could prolong the game into that zone. So I think it might be a safer to not leave for example these
-The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote
-Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch
for that window. I do however see it as unlikely that it will come to day 7 so we can probably safely remove 1.
For the voting I'm not sure if one power is stronger then the others but I agree that we're probably better of not sharing our votes ahead of time (so we use the encryption system) because I don't think any power we give the mafia will be more advantagous for us then not letting them know what we're giving them.
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Radfield, You and Toad are cute. Well, You will be cuter when You die. Submit double vig so I can shoot you
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@Sbrubbles You say it yourself, it's a huge risk for them to try to rig anything so they're not going to do it.
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?
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Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying.
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On May 30 2012 21:41 Radfield wrote:
Roleblocker is by far the most useless role for mafia in this setup. I will gladly explain this in further detail once the roles are picked, but it should be obvious to anyone looking at the setup and considering mafia options. I don't want to say any more than that right now, but there is really no contest.
Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore).
Please send in roleblocker.
If you fail to see how scummy this is, may Whoever help you
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On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote:
Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying.
I don't understand this. How does that open up the possibility for them to get busted for lying?
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On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
@Sbrubbles You say it yourself, it's a huge risk for them to try to rig anything so they're not going to do it.
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?
My point is there are be one of two possibilities, if we don't consolidate votes:
1) Mafia doesn't mess up with our vote tally
2) Mafia messes up with our vote tally
I assume they'll do 1, since I believe 2) is worse for them anyway. If we assumed wrong, we'll probably have wasted a PR, BUT we'll be able to deduce either the liars or who is telling the truth through the tally (I think my example is a reasonable one). And, of course, there's the intrinsic advantage of mafia not knowing what they're gonna get until they've already picked our roles.
On May 30 2012 23:44 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote:
Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying. I don't understand this. How does that open up the possibility for them to get busted for lying?
Mafia voting 1-1-1 is the only way for them to not mess up our vote tally (in other words, do option 1) and not get busted for lying.
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Radfield's Fall once again
I am not implying Radfield is Saddam Hussein, it's first image I've found.
It's amazing how fast you can slip when trying to play an active scum game. I guess it must be hard hiding your activity when last games weren't exactly exciting nowadays. Well, let's start to get those slips out, shall we?
+ Show Spoiler [First] +On May 30 2012 20:06 Radfield wrote:
K, I'm skipping over the last page or so because I don't have much time, and want to get this said. My apologies if this has already been said.
Roleblocker is the pick we need to send in for mafia. The reason for this is the role we absolutely do not want a combination of framer/gf + cop/tracker. That gives us the least possible advantage in this game. By us publicly sending in the roleblocker, it basically forces mafia to give us 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child. If they decide to give us either cop or tracker that is even better, as we will KNOW that they only have a roleblocker and cannot throw off our investigations.
Roleblocker vs 2 of vigilante/medic/innocent child is a fantastic place to be. If they happen to give us tracker or cop that is even better. It is far far better than any other scenario.
Role and Alignment being hidden we want to save until lylo, as at that point it doesn't hurt us. Likewise when only 1 mafia is left.
Voting being Secret we want to save until we have an obvious lynch.
Lynch locks once majority hits does not hurt us at all, and is our freebee.
Mayoral election is our second freebee.
Day cycle shortened to 24 hours we'll use in the lategame, as discussion is slow then anyways.
I'm out of time, more later.
What? This is EXACTLY combination we WANT. Framer has two shots. He has small chance to succeed. Lawyer my guy or frame this guy? Our cops/trackers if present will have Players-1/Players chance of getting a true check. This role, adding that it's only two-shot one is so bad that it hurts my eyes. Godfather is weak too and our trackers/dts have the same chances of getting a true check every night, the only thing making him better is that he works forever. Roleblocker on the other hand, is THE BEST role out there. Affects EVERY role (besides Child, but it would be foolish to pick it anyway, Doctor+Child without a roleblocker is such an awesome gg haha). What's better: giving a dt a false check when You get EXTREMELY LUCKY or denying dt a check for one night, while it is a lot easier to blue hunt THAN to blue target hunt (do people even try to do this?). Roleblocker will be good in ANY setup, while framer/gf suck without information roles. But Kurumi, what if we pick them and they know it? We get two cops/trackers? Good luck framing their check and then trying to sway a lynch with "follow the cop" crap. Logic and analysis>blue role shenanigans.
Also keep in mind that "I don't have much time" crappy excuse. Let me collect them.
+ Show Spoiler [Second] +On May 30 2012 21:41 Radfield wrote:
Roleblocker is by far the most useless role for mafia in this setup. I will gladly explain this in further detail once the roles are picked, but it should be obvious to anyone looking at the setup and considering mafia options. I don't want to say any more than that right now, but there is really no contest.
Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore).
Please send in roleblocker.
DING DING DING
I promise to explain something REALLY FREAKING IMPORTANT but.. later... after it goes through...
Yup. Can't get more scummier than that, Mr. Radfield.
Also this "Please send in roleblocker" because what, you can't? OH RIGHT, I FORGOT.
Wrong, we NEVER can "trust every single check"
unless of course, we are Mafia and know we've picked a dt and noone from our team is faking one...
RIGHT, MR. RADFIELD?
Just because someone said "X is mafia, I checked him last night" does not mean he is telling the truth, wake the heck up people. The most important thing in this scenario is:
* Look who do you trust more. "Mr. DT" or "poopfeast420"? DT is scummy? Well, to hell with him, it's not like we shouldn't lynch DTs first in this setup WHERE THEY CAN'T PROVIDE SECOND FREAKING CHECK, RIGHT?
* Try to fit this scenario into current game. Did someone was getting close to getting lynched? Is he believed to be scum? DING DING DING, something's wrong!
Of course Innocent Child can't be roleblocked, but who sane would pick even one of those? A madman, that's right. Vigilantes or One-Shot cops are best picks for mafia. Vigilantes because they tend to suck and cops because they tend to suck. And they suck.
See? Medic is a roulette everytime pretty much, while Tracker is absolute THE BEST role out there. Can collect multiple checks etc.
+ Show Spoiler [Third] +On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting??
Shooting down an excellent plan by a guy who has seen a game like this before. Of course. I guess I am going to go with a guy who does not seem scummy and actually speaks his mind, huh Mr.Radfield?
+ Show Spoiler [Fourth] +On May 30 2012 22:01 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:56 Zephirdd wrote:On May 30 2012 21:54 Radfield wrote:On May 30 2012 21:51 Zephirdd wrote:IMO secret ballot shouldn't be used. Too much confusion if I understood it right. Also, scratch the last encrypted code. + Show Spoiler [what I picked] +?b64xF1yM2Qy++9qlohfAHP+g6g4nA5rLPIXvQn02yFKhlP1oswI+B5HmNw3lsK+
KGjOakHLoluNDfPdwJr/5SCNaPlvWY0KLbBASU3hwAarQWXqXoOpMxJ4iOha1wdA
ma7znGXACp71St85QQ94UsZElCjJzs6tgTzXhAn15x0jtcruTYHQMGjgr5PTTkhy
w5uy?64b I don't see anyone doing that yet, and I'm sad please post, encrypted, the role you picked for mafia(try to encrypt a phrase like "I picked *** because YYY" so it's hard to reverse-crack it). After this phase we de-crack our codes and verify the role we made mafia pick. I see no need to encrypt our roles, I honestly don't understand the need for it at all. No townie is going to lie tomorrow about what role he sent in today, and mafia is going to lie regardless of whether they encrypt or not. So why are we encrypting?? So mafia can't be 100% sure of and can't 100% send roles to counterpick ours. For instance, they may end up picking Tracker when we pick Roleblocker, which is great for us. That's what I got from it, at least. Ahh whatever. when we ask everyone tomorrow what they sent in(without encrypting today), all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. If we encrypt are roles today, all townies are going to tell the truth, and all mafia are going to lie. Encrypting does nothing. Regardless, It doesn't matter if mafia know they are getting roleblocker, as they still have to give us the roles we want. There is no advantage to mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker.
Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllyyyyyyyyyy? Check first spoiler to see a contradiction.
Radfield is scum. Roleblocker is the best pick for mafia. He tries to assure town that checks are to be trusted everytime without framer/gf, which is ton of bullcrap. Always take check with a grain of salt.
Kurumi out. Framer/GF suck.
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EWODP:
"Check first spoiler to see a contradiction in red"
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 30 2012 20:01 prplhz wrote:
Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked?
Yes.
On May 30 2012 20:01 prplhz wrote:
Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles?
They must be different.
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On May 30 2012 23:44 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote:
Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying. I don't understand this. How does that open up the possibility for them to get busted for lying?
The idea is that something like what sbrubbles posted happens. Which is the only advantage of encryption in the first place - Radfield is right in that encryption is meaningless in the sense of that townies will tell the truth and mafia will lie. But it's theoretically easier for mafia to lie when they can see how the townies are voting, and therefore blend themselves into the majority more easily. If they have to all pick beforehand without full knowledge of what town is doing or what town is going to say they pick, they run the risk of some weird vote totals happening.
The problem with what I just posted is that it's only theoretical at this point - I think Radfield and toad are correct about roleblocker being weakest for them, which means practically speaking I don't think the vote will be close at all.
________________________
On the poisons:
1) From skimming the thread I see the idea of "it's so hard to reach majority day one" pop up (I think from toad). Is anyone else genuinely scared of this? I'm not at all. If everyone is then we can go for mayoral election, but I think that is a waste.
2) Majority day one is 6 votes (12/2 rounded up). First person to 6 votes gets lynched. If we have to get 6 votes anyway, then why not 7? I think majority + 1 is relatively safe here.
I'm pretty sure HiroPro is right in that we only have to use five poisons (12 10 8 6 4 assuming there's only one scum left by the end and no vig shots or medic blocks or no lynches). So let's not get carried away thinking we have to use majority +1 AND secret mafia vote when we can just use majority +1 and never bother with the secret mafia vote.
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Radfield, I don't see any benefits of discussing why roleblocker is the weakest role after we choose it - your whole point of validating the cop checks etc. takes into account that even if mafia knew that they would receive roleblocker, we would still get good PRs. So mafia don't benefit from the discussion and town does - so why don't you want to talk about it?
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And Kurumi, your case is based on two points
1) Roleblocker is objectively the best role for mafia
2) Radfield knows this and is pushing it regardless (i.e. with mafia agenda).
Can you elaborate on these two points?
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I see what Toad and Radfield are saying about roleblocker. While I don't really feel that medic/vig against roleblocker is really much of an advantage for us, I can see the chaos that gf/framer can cause (There's no way we're getting innocent child). But I still think doing the encryption is a good idea. It can't hurt.
I'm pretty sure HiroPro is right in that we only have to use five poisons (12 10 8 6 4 assuming there's only one scum left by the end and no vig shots or medic blocks or no lynches). So let's not get carried away thinking we have to use majority +1 AND secret mafia vote when we can just use majority +1 and never bother with the secret mafia vote.
I'd prefer to be on the safe side and allocate six poisons. I don't want us to get in trouble just because we get a medic save. "Secret mafia vote" just isn't that dangerous; we can use that and "majority+1" day1/day2 (when those poisons are the weakest).
http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html
[b]Encrypted Text: ZZZZZ IKQND HLAHA GFAXM GRHFX WHJBP HVVJW QKGDM FLUER ECNNB DMNAN
WUNJC IHLRU XHVXV AEKGV IHMJV XJAXL SCIPV EPLGD QQDLM PHKLT DXUIA
WUGKM VQIAP WMXFD DQCOJ BUMZZ YYYYY
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dang Kurumi.
I am also worried about the fact that Radfield is so worried about the idea of everyone registering their role picks BEFORE the roles are picked. It makes a gigantic difference.
Guys, if you are town, register your vote BEFORE voting using the encryption. Please.
Also, please consider the first encryption of mine. Yes I did change my mind again.
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As long as you stick to one encryption (before the selection phase is over of course), shouldn't be a problem. Additionally, I think posting your encryption should happen as late as possible (send in your vote whenever) - otherwise scum might glean what you have picked according to the current thought in thread.
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Dearest Kurumi, I am Mr. Lovett. lets make some Radpie.
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My vote
+ Show Spoiler +ZZZZZ GVRSG KTULX EDLNH OTJLU XGKUU XEIOK PKIWI IRUCV RDGQQ QBGFF
DQRJI ASFKU XLUBV AXNFG VETUB WWJRT JEHTD HOBHO PVHKB UZZZZ YYYYY
I'll comment later or after the day post, if I comment now my vote will be obvious.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?
Mafia do not actually send in any votes for what mafia gets, so they will have to lie about what they sent in.
On May 30 2012 23:33 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 21:41 Radfield wrote:
Roleblocker is by far the most useless role for mafia in this setup. I will gladly explain this in further detail once the roles are picked, but it should be obvious to anyone looking at the setup and considering mafia options. I don't want to say any more than that right now, but there is really no contest.
Consider this though, if we KNOW we have sent in roleblocker(ie everyone sends that in) then we KNOW we can trust every single check via tracker or cop. That is incredibly important. Given that, mafia will have to give us some combination of the other three roles, which is an absolutely fantastic setup for town. (Innocent child cannot be roleblocked, medic never needs to claim, vig never needs to claim until second shot when he cant be roleblocked anymore).
Please send in roleblocker. If you fail to see how scummy this is, may Whoever help you
That is not remotely scummy. I'm telling you there are certain reasons I can think of that I don't want mafia to know until they have picked our roles. Once they have picked our roles then I will gladly explain in further detail. Please don't be silly this game Kurumi, you have the potential to be an asset to town or mafia when you are a townie. Make it an asset to town.
My statement becomes scummy when 1 of 2 things happen:
a) I have no explanation for my statement tomorrow
or
b) I have an unsatisfactory explanation for that statement tomorrow.
In either case, there is nothing even possibly scummy about that sentence yet.
On May 31 2012 01:38 slOosh wrote:
Radfield, I don't see any benefits of discussing why roleblocker is the weakest role after we choose it - your whole point of validating the cop checks etc. takes into account that even if mafia knew that they would receive roleblocker, we would still get good PRs. So mafia don't benefit from the discussion and town does - so why don't you want to talk about it?
Again, it has to do with what the mafia are picking for us, which I obviously don't want to talk about until tomorrow.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Also, I think we should all be voting for mafia to get a +1 vote for tomorrow. That poison gets harsher the longer the game goes, and really doesn't hurt us at all on day 1. Thoughts?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Kurumi, I'm happy to respond to your points, but don't have time at the moment. We can talk tonight.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Actually, I probably won't. I have limited time this game, and am going to focus it on scumhunting. If I'm still alive Day 2 I will start responding to criticisms.
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On May 31 2012 04:12 Radfield wrote:
Actually, I probably won't. I have limited time this game, and am going to focus it on scumhunting. If I'm still alive Day 2 I will start responding to criticisms.
Remember that thing that You don't sign up for games when You don't have time?
Excuses, excuses.
Scum.
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I think the instant majority poison does us no damage at all. We're going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways. At least that'y the way the most recent games played out.
It's not like mafia will hop in there "olol let's hammer" and get 3 votes on the same guy lynching a townie.
It would need coordination because we'd want to know who people are willing to vote for before actually voting to ensure we don't end the cycle early.
If we can manage that coordination that poison looks the weakest d1 to me.
But it's kinda risky if people lack the patience / coordination to talk things through before voting.
That being said I'm not going to vote the majority +1 poison because as mentioned I think we're already going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways.
The +1 vote for mafia poison seems okay and there's really not a lot that could go wrong like that and it might be dangerous later in the game.
So yeah I'm willing to vote those two and as I'm apparently the only one that thinks the instant majority thing is not dangerous on d1 it's going to be the +1 vote for mafia poison.
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On May 31 2012 04:19 Toadesstern wrote:
I think the instant majority poison does us no damage at all. We're going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways. At least that'y the way the most recent games played out.
It's not like mafia will hop in there "olol let's hammer" and get 3 votes on the same guy lynching a townie.
It would need coordination because we'd want to know who people are willing to vote for before actually voting to ensure we don't end the cycle early.
If we can manage that coordination that poison looks the weakest d1 to me.
But it's kinda risky if people lack the patience / coordination to talk things through before voting.
That being said I'm not going to vote the majority +1 poison because as mentioned I think we're already going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways.
The +1 vote for mafia poison seems okay and there's really not a lot that could go wrong like that and it might be dangerous later in the game.
So yeah I'm willing to vote those two and as I'm apparently the only one that thinks the instant majority thing is not dangerous on d1 it's going to be the +1 vote for mafia poison.
If we have a hard time getting a majority then how is giving mafia +1 vote poison a good idea?
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I'm voting the majority +1 for D1, because the reasonings behind it are better than any other put forth thus far.
##Vote: 6 (Majority + 1 is required for a successful lynch)
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On May 31 2012 04:56 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:19 Toadesstern wrote:
I think the instant majority poison does us no damage at all. We're going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways. At least that'y the way the most recent games played out.
It's not like mafia will hop in there "olol let's hammer" and get 3 votes on the same guy lynching a townie.
It would need coordination because we'd want to know who people are willing to vote for before actually voting to ensure we don't end the cycle early.
If we can manage that coordination that poison looks the weakest d1 to me.
But it's kinda risky if people lack the patience / coordination to talk things through before voting.
That being said I'm not going to vote the majority +1 poison because as mentioned I think we're already going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways.
The +1 vote for mafia poison seems okay and there's really not a lot that could go wrong like that and it might be dangerous later in the game.
So yeah I'm willing to vote those two and as I'm apparently the only one that thinks the instant majority thing is not dangerous on d1 it's going to be the +1 vote for mafia poison. If we have a hard time getting a majority then how is giving mafia +1 vote poison a good idea?
because that has nothing to do with towns ability to get enough people on the same guy.
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On May 31 2012 04:19 Toadesstern wrote:
I think the instant majority poison does us no damage at all. We're going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways. At least that'y the way the most recent games played out.
It's not like mafia will hop in there "olol let's hammer" and get 3 votes on the same guy lynching a townie.
It would need coordination because we'd want to know who people are willing to vote for before actually voting to ensure we don't end the cycle early.
If we can manage that coordination that poison looks the weakest d1 to me.
But it's kinda risky if people lack the patience / coordination to talk things through before voting.
That being said I'm not going to vote the majority +1 poison because as mentioned I think we're already going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways.
The +1 vote for mafia poison seems okay and there's really not a lot that could go wrong like that and it might be dangerous later in the game.
So yeah I'm willing to vote those two and as I'm apparently the only one that thinks the instant majority thing is not dangerous on d1 it's going to be the +1 vote for mafia poison.
I don't follow this - the difference between +1 majority and +1 mafia vote is either us having to get 6 votes together or us having to get 7 votes together. If you're really scared about getting a majority together day one then why aren't you pushing for mayoral election?
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On May 31 2012 05:02 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:19 Toadesstern wrote:
I think the instant majority poison does us no damage at all. We're going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways. At least that'y the way the most recent games played out.
It's not like mafia will hop in there "olol let's hammer" and get 3 votes on the same guy lynching a townie.
It would need coordination because we'd want to know who people are willing to vote for before actually voting to ensure we don't end the cycle early.
If we can manage that coordination that poison looks the weakest d1 to me.
But it's kinda risky if people lack the patience / coordination to talk things through before voting.
That being said I'm not going to vote the majority +1 poison because as mentioned I think we're already going to have a hard time getting a majority anyways.
The +1 vote for mafia poison seems okay and there's really not a lot that could go wrong like that and it might be dangerous later in the game.
So yeah I'm willing to vote those two and as I'm apparently the only one that thinks the instant majority thing is not dangerous on d1 it's going to be the +1 vote for mafia poison. I don't follow this - the difference between +1 majority and +1 mafia vote is either us having to get 6 votes together or us having to get 7 votes together. If you're really scared about getting a majority together day one then why aren't you pushing for mayoral election?
that's really a nice poison later on imo. Townreads are easier to make but they tend to be wrong early on from time to time.
It could happen that we end up voting a mafia as mayor or not so mart man into office. I don't like both options d1
That could be a nice poison later in the game that has about no drawbacks.
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I disagree completely that we want mafia to have the roleblocker, but I think everyone will see this scenario differently.
This is a pick your poison game, which means people are most inclined to use their own views about the game setup to choose roles for the other side. Radfield is apparently of the opinion that the roleblocker is not scary because it ensures we get checks off (if there's an investigative role) or he's lying and he's scum.
There are reasons I think roleblocker is the strongest role for mafia. For one, it stops claims dead in their tracks. If you have a tracker claim, as scum you don't have to kill the claimer if you have a roleblocker.
Scum will never choose vigi or innocent child for us. That's pretty much out of the question. They'll choose between the other 3 roles, and at that point it's completely up to personal preference.
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Do scum get to vote for what role they get?
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Toad: I agree with you on the mayoral vote being a good mid-game poison and "secret hidden vote" being a good d1 choice. But I don't really get why you feel that "+1 majority vote" is bad for d2. I know that wheel of fortune had a problem with no-lynches, but looking at some other recent normal minis "C9++ and Mr Wiggles II", neither of them had any no-lynches. And day 2 is a time when you have stuff to analyze and look at; consolidation shouldn't be a problem.
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On May 31 2012 05:33 HiroPro wrote:
Toad: I agree with you on the mayoral vote being a good mid-game poison and "secret hidden vote" being a good d1 choice. But I don't really get why you feel that "+1 majority vote" is bad for d2. I know that wheel of fortune had a problem with no-lynches, but looking at some other recent normal minis "C9++ and Mr Wiggles II", neither of them had any no-lynches. And day 2 is a time when you have stuff to analyze and look at; consolidation shouldn't be a problem.
Not that I have read those games but as far as I had it the last couple of games:
It's either a NL or some mediorce compromise instead of a good lynch. Compromise that start off a "well let's see who is willing to vote whom to get a lynch happening"-basis generally lead to a mislynch.
That's how I've seen my most recent games.
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On May 29 2012 08:17 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 07:07 prplhz wrote:
Do scum get to vote for what role they're gonna get too or is it only "town"? Scum vote for towns role and vice versa
You already got an answer prplhz. What are your current thoughts for today?
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I'm voting majority+1 for the reasons I've already stated - to reiterate:
Mafia secret vote gives mafia the power to decide the vote (i.e. electing mafia mayor) in any of the following vote totals:
6-6
6-5-1
5-5-2
5-anything that adds up to 7. In this case mafia decides whether to lynch the player with 5 or let a no lynch happen.
Which means we might as well go for 7 votes, which means we might as well use majority + 1 and never let mafia ever have a secret vote in the game. Hidden ballot is less dangerous endgame than secret vote, even.
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I'm going to vote for the secret hidden vote. I think that will be more useful in close races and I don't think that day1 will be two bandwagons, but a single person who will be up for lynch and then we'll see if we can get enough votes for him.
@wherebugsgo What claims will roleblocker stop? You say that scum can just role block a tracker if he claims and they will not have to kill him, but they don't have to kill him with godfather either. The good thing is that we can trust investigative roles. You say that scum will never choose vigilante or innocent child, but will they ever choose 1-shot cop or tracker if we give them a role blocker? If not, then we will actually get at least one of those roles you say they'll never give us which is good. If they do, then we can trust their results, 1-shot cop would pretty much claim day2 and scum will not be able to kill him 'cause then they'd confirm his check. If we give them a role blocker then tracker shouldn't even claim unless he's got something juicy.
What role do you think we should give scum?
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On May 31 2012 05:40 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 08:17 Bluelightz wrote:On May 29 2012 07:07 prplhz wrote:
Do scum get to vote for what role they're gonna get too or is it only "town"? Scum vote for towns role and vice versa You already got an answer prplhz. What are your current thoughts for today?
That's a pretty generic question. I just think it's a little crazy that scum don't even get to vote, then it's really just going to be up to town and we're going to pick whatever.
I also have no idea why Radfield is so much against encrypting our votes. It will do absolutely no harm and it might help us out.
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On May 31 2012 05:41 talismania wrote:
I'm voting majority+1 for the reasons I've already stated - to reiterate:
Mafia secret vote gives mafia the power to decide the vote (i.e. electing mafia mayor) in any of the following vote totals:
6-6
6-5-1
5-5-2
5-anything that adds up to 7. In this case mafia decides whether to lynch the player with 5 or let a no lynch happen.
Which means we might as well go for 7 votes, which means we might as well use majority + 1 and never let mafia ever have a secret vote in the game. Hidden ballot is less dangerous endgame than secret vote, even.
you do realize that secret vote and mayor can't happen at the same time, right?
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Bluelightz says that scum votes for town's role and town votes for scum's role, but not that scum don't vote for town's role. The reason why I was confused about this in the first place is because the OP actually says "town votes for scum role" and I don't know if "town" actually includes scum. I'm still a little confused but everybody seems to think that scum don't vote so I guess that they don't.
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On May 31 2012 05:56 prplhz wrote:
Bluelightz says that scum votes for town's role and town votes for scum's role, but not that scum don't vote for town's role. The reason why I was confused about this in the first place is because the OP actually says "town votes for scum role" and I don't know if "town" actually includes scum. I'm still a little confused but everybody seems to think that scum don't vote so I guess that they don't.
the vice versa part makes it quite clear it's "only town votes for mafia roles" imo.
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On May 31 2012 05:55 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:41 talismania wrote:
I'm voting majority+1 for the reasons I've already stated - to reiterate:
Mafia secret vote gives mafia the power to decide the vote (i.e. electing mafia mayor) in any of the following vote totals:
6-6
6-5-1
5-5-2
5-anything that adds up to 7. In this case mafia decides whether to lynch the player with 5 or let a no lynch happen.
Which means we might as well go for 7 votes, which means we might as well use majority + 1 and never let mafia ever have a secret vote in the game. Hidden ballot is less dangerous endgame than secret vote, even. you do realize that secret vote and mayor can't happen at the same time, right?
I'm saying that if there is secret vote and any of those voting scenarios happen, it's as if we've effectively elected mafia mayor for the day.
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Why are people voting for majority+1? D1 is already hard enough to get a lynch on. I'd much rather leave it for D2, when at least we'll have a bit more consolidated reads. Mafia vote +1 is at its weakest right now, so it's the best pick for D1 in my opinion.
I'll be gone for the next 3 hours but I'll be back for the deadline.
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Thinking about it, you are right. Majority+1 is better at day 2 and mafia vote is better(for town) at day 1. Switching votes.
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On May 31 2012 05:51 prplhz wrote:
I'm going to vote for the secret hidden vote. I think that will be more useful in close races and I don't think that day1 will be two bandwagons, but a single person who will be up for lynch and then we'll see if we can get enough votes for him.
@wherebugsgo What claims will roleblocker stop? You say that scum can just role block a tracker if he claims and they will not have to kill him, but they don't have to kill him with godfather either. The good thing is that we can trust investigative roles. You say that scum will never choose vigilante or innocent child, but will they ever choose 1-shot cop or tracker if we give them a role blocker? If not, then we will actually get at least one of those roles you say they'll never give us which is good. If they do, then we can trust their results, 1-shot cop would pretty much claim day2 and scum will not be able to kill him 'cause then they'd confirm his check. If we give them a role blocker then tracker shouldn't even claim unless he's got something juicy.
What role do you think we should give scum?
truly I don't think it matters.
Godfather might be the strongest role for scum in the setup based on tracker + 1 shot cop stuff. I'd rather give scum framer or roleblocker. Framer is at the very least limited use and roleblocker is a bit more unreliable and forces scum to do more work.
What's stopping them from picking both one shot cop and tracker? I think that's what scum will choose, or something like medic+tracker or medic+one shot cop. I really doubt they'll ever choose innocent child or vigilante. I think they'd only choose vigilante if they're confident in being able to get the vigi to shoot at townies, but I don't think that's likely.
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Just voted for mafia hidden vote, I agree that it will be hard to get a majority day 1 so majority plus 1 should be saved til tomorrow at least.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 31 2012 04:14 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 04:12 Radfield wrote:
Actually, I probably won't. I have limited time this game, and am going to focus it on scumhunting. If I'm still alive Day 2 I will start responding to criticisms. Remember that thing that You don't sign up for games when You don't have time? Excuses, excuses. Scum.
I have time, but it is limited. I want to spend it filtering. How bout if I fail to do anything constructive then you can come at me for being scummy. I'll tell you what, you form nice coherent arguments you want me to respond to, and I will respond.
On May 31 2012 05:11 wherebugsgo wrote:
There are reasons I think roleblocker is the strongest role for mafia. For one, it stops claims dead in their tracks. If you have a tracker claim, as scum you don't have to kill the claimer if you have a roleblocker.
Scum will never choose vigi or innocent child for us. That's pretty much out of the question. They'll choose between the other 3 roles, and at that point it's completely up to personal preference.
re: bold You're missing something extremely important bugs, and I'll be glad to enlighten you once the picks are in(again, related to mafia choosing town roles).
re:Italics Are you even reading what you've written? Lets say you are right, and scum will not choose vig or IC. That means we get 2 of medic, tracker, cop..... vs a roleblocker. That is fantastically unbalanced in favor of town. Because we know we're facing a roleblocker, our detectives KNOW that every check is true. The roleblocker is essentially useless except for the tracker, and he's going to claim only once he finds scum. Also consider, a tracker vs roleblocker has a good chance of finding the roleblocker because whomever the roleblocker visits will be notified(unlike a frame). So our tracker has a x2 chance of finding scum compared to the GF.
On May 31 2012 05:54 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 05:40 slOosh wrote:On May 29 2012 08:17 Bluelightz wrote:On May 29 2012 07:07 prplhz wrote:
Do scum get to vote for what role they're gonna get too or is it only "town"? Scum vote for towns role and vice versa You already got an answer prplhz. What are your current thoughts for today? That's a pretty generic question. I just think it's a little crazy that scum don't even get to vote, then it's really just going to be up to town and we're going to pick whatever. I also have no idea why Radfield is so much against encrypting our votes. It will do absolutely no harm and it might help us out.
I'm only against it because I don't understand how it can help. Explain to me how it helps because right now I don't get it.
I'm voting for the +1 secret vote for mafia. I feel like at worst they're going to use it to mislynch a townie who didn't quite get hammered, which isn't really that bad for town since it allows all the townies voting for the mislynch to refocus. In fact you could argue that it's smarter for scum to leave a townie alive who is at L-1, since we'll all think he is scum and lynch(or shoot) him Day 2. In short, +1 vote for mafia is pretty useless right now.
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@Radfield It helps because scum apparently don't get to vote for what role they get. This means that the only way they can make sure that they can't get caught not having a vote is if they split it 1-1-1. Sbrubbles already showed a scenario where we could tell something about alignments based on what people voting and encouraging everybody to encrypt their votes in the thread before voting ensures that scum can't lie about it based on what role they actually ended up with.
I agree that it's a long shot but you seem weirdly against it instead of just going along with it. There's zero chance of harming town and a chance of getting some information about scum. Just do it man.
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My mafia role PM encryption
+ Show Spoiler +ZZZZZ XXJTH KKXJL XFJBP FSOJH UJIOT BLWKH AXLFN BQPXQ LFELT VUJHI
RXQWC KPFOV ONBAR MLJAI IAUJW NUOTW JQJVE FRMBF CQBAX LJHWR XCTUW
EAFGF WSFEO CAQLG EFBKC CLMZZ YYYYY
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
That makes sense. I skim read that stuff, and didn't really understand it(obviously).
If our votes say a framer should have been picked, but then a roleblocker gets flipped, we essentially have a listcheck on the framer votes for X amount of scum.
I'm happy to encrypt mine if people want me to, but I think it's pretty obvious what I picked....
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Always tryin to bandwagon me toad
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On May 31 2012 08:07 Radfield wrote:Always tryin to bandwagon me toad
I am pretty sure it' the other way around
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Updated list of what I think the poison order should be:
Day 1: #3 Secret Hidden Vote
Day 2: #6 Majority +1
Day 3: #4 Mayor Election
Day 4: #1 Lynch Lock
Day 5: #7 24 Hour Day Cycle
Day 6: #5 Hidden Lynch
Not Used: Secret Ballot
Obviously, the hiding role/alignment of the lynch can be used whenever/if we have lylo.
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On May 31 2012 08:13 Toadesstern wrote:I am pretty sure it' the other way around
Ah crap no. You actually were first to say that :p
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And a new encrypted role:
+ Show Spoiler +
ZZZZZ GJNLL IRXGM PUBSF MPAHF NLNXV TBBGF JGJHL SJSPW RWJUT SNNDC
RCRGK ELJIK LROXB JVKHT FMJFW LIPWW IRBVP CQAJJ SUJCO PGQXN WRCCC
WVCEW AVUWJ WBMKE XCVHH EIIZZ YYYYY
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my rolevote:
+ Show Spoiler +##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ ILTQG LNVIF XWBWP QCJPH XGHTW IJBFH ADBGR WPKRG SXHRQ FQRXH DQAIH GKFIB KJVBP AHAMV AWLHH WXONO QUIBB ITBDP XSACT NIUPI UTAET ENGVF UCJBI OAXCD IFWNJ OPTZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 31 2012 08:14 HiroPro wrote:
Updated list of what I think the poison order should be:
Day 1: #3 Secret Hidden Vote
Day 2: #6 Majority +1
Day 3: #4 Mayor Election
Day 4: #1 Lynch Lock
Day 5: #7 24 Hour Day Cycle
Day 6: #5 Hidden Lynch
Not Used: Secret Ballot
Obviously, the hiding role/alignment of the lynch can be used whenever/if we have lylo.
Secret ballot is actually pretty non-scary once we only have 1 mafia left.
I would probably rather slot Secret Ballot into Day 5, bump everything else up 1 and take out Majority +1 or 24 hour cycle. Majority +1 is a poor Day 2 slot, and should be used for a day when we have an obvious lynch target.
Really though, none of the poisons are very dangerous if we use them appropriately.
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On May 31 2012 08:27 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 08:14 HiroPro wrote:
Updated list of what I think the poison order should be:
Day 1: #3 Secret Hidden Vote
Day 2: #6 Majority +1
Day 3: #4 Mayor Election
Day 4: #1 Lynch Lock
Day 5: #7 24 Hour Day Cycle
Day 6: #5 Hidden Lynch
Not Used: Secret Ballot
Obviously, the hiding role/alignment of the lynch can be used whenever/if we have lylo. Secret ballot is actually pretty non-scary once we only have 1 mafia left. I would probably rather slot Secret Ballot into Day 5, bump everything else up 1 and take out Majority +1 or 24 hour cycle. Majority +1 is a poor Day 2 slot, and should be used for a day when we have an obvious lynch target. Really though, none of the poisons are very dangerous if we use them appropriately.
Was just about to post the same thing. I've been saying the whole time I really don't think we need to use both majority +1 and secret hidden vote. If there's going to be a day 6 somehow, then hidden lynch is fine on day 5 because we don't need to know the flip - either the game ends or it doesn't and secret ballot doesn't really matter day 6.
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On May 31 2012 08:32 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 08:27 Radfield wrote:On May 31 2012 08:14 HiroPro wrote:
Updated list of what I think the poison order should be:
Day 1: #3 Secret Hidden Vote
Day 2: #6 Majority +1
Day 3: #4 Mayor Election
Day 4: #1 Lynch Lock
Day 5: #7 24 Hour Day Cycle
Day 6: #5 Hidden Lynch
Not Used: Secret Ballot
Obviously, the hiding role/alignment of the lynch can be used whenever/if we have lylo. Secret ballot is actually pretty non-scary once we only have 1 mafia left. I would probably rather slot Secret Ballot into Day 5, bump everything else up 1 and take out Majority +1 or 24 hour cycle. Majority +1 is a poor Day 2 slot, and should be used for a day when we have an obvious lynch target. Really though, none of the poisons are very dangerous if we use them appropriately. Was just about to post the same thing. I've been saying the whole time I really don't think we need to use both majority +1 and secret hidden vote. If there's going to be a day 6 somehow, then hidden lynch is fine on day 5 because we don't need to know the flip - either the game ends or it doesn't and secret ballot doesn't really matter day 6.
Ok I see what you're saying. If it's day 5 with a possibility to go into day 6 (meaning that a medic made a save), it'd be 3 town-2 mafia, so the game would end if we got the wrong lynch. Ok, then I guess majority+1 never needs to be used.
And then I guess everything can be bumped up 1, the way that Radfield says. The question then becomes, is mayor election better for day 2 or day 3?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
My initial thought is that mayoral election is probably better day 3, lynch lock on day 2. The thought process being that the longer the game goes on, the more likely we will have strong reads. But thinking about it, I'm not sure that is the case.
The strongest townies will be dead by Day 3, and we'll likely have pretty strong town reads by Day 2 given that we have an extra 24 hours of discussion right now.
Given that, I would probably be in favor of a mayoral lynch Day 2, and the lynch lock on Day 3.
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Crap. Forgot to remind you guys, GET YOUR POISON VOTES IN!
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Kurumi and wbg need to vote
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
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On May 31 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Kurumi and wbg need to vote
lol nvm im stupid
wbg and someone else needs to vote >_>'
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Just got home. Submitting my vote.
+ Show Spoiler +##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ IPHWF FSQHH BENQR FAGOR TWQRU VVGEA AKBXJ AHMXV MWCLU FNKAH RSLKI WMGUJ QTOUP CUDJQ CMXJB NWJSP SEMTU DQAGN EEJGB UZZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Day 1![[image loading]](http://www.tampagov.net/dept_fire_rescue_public_education/information_resources/adults/images/poison.jpg)
"WITCH U INSANE BISCHE"
"LOL WAT?"
"Im perfectly, absolutely, positibely INSANE!"
"Duh!"
back from the ramblings into the black portal
"DAT BLACK PORTAL!"
"Uhh, Real Life Portal"
"No it is not!"
"Yes it is!"
"SHUT U!PHFUEAIWGKJ ASGJMASJKFDSHAJKGSHJKFG"
^above guy still drunk
The fail witch, atleast wasn't THAT fail, the fail MALE (that's right!) witch casted a spell on dem goodies and baddies group to kill one of the group each day!
"Must Kill Noobs......"
"Must get Portal to connect laser...."
"Must play Portal......."
The clearly sane raves of some of the group! Anyway, you guys got to kill one of yer group! (not really the fail witch let someone live if he doesnt have majority of favor LOOL)
The Men of the world we're laughing their arses of watcing this, instantly being simply electrified watching this simply flowed their pay (its the last day of the month fuck yeah) into the nearest pub to drink wildly while crashing every place in the world with a tv!
Oh, just remembered the baddies got a AWESOME POWER! for some reason the goodies too lawl
Thanks to bluelightz again o.O
It is now day 1. Option three has been selected as the poison.
The mafia team recieves a secret hidden vote. You have 48 hours to determine the first lynch.
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errr there is more to say, actually. First,
On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline.
The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's.
Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say.
Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes.
Discuss.
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oh shit it was only 24 hours
my bad guys, I was intending to vote the majority + 1 option.
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I voted for framer though.
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Sorry for ninja vote yesterday night , forgot to pick anything. I think that the hidden vote does nothing unless we coordinate things wrong. Remember guys , play to win , so dont stick Your single vote on someone and just let it go. I voted for 2shot framer. Question everything. I still think Radfield is scum. I will try to look at his meta harder and see if I can find more scum.
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Don't have my key because I'm on iPhone but I voted for roleblocker.
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My key is "brettmichaels" (the guy in the OP banner) and I voted for roleblocker.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss.
Then you don't know me very well Zephridd I skim read all the time, and I do mean all the time. The strength of my play is that I go back and reread many times, and filter everyone many times. Knowing when you can skim and when you need to pay attention is something every good player utilizes, particularly when time is short. Yesterday I had points I wanted to make, and not enough time to do it in(particularly in the morning, when I didn't even finish my post).
I obviously picked roleblocker.
Anyways, the reason we publicly wanted roleblocker is that we desperately want a medic in this setup, and mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker dramatically increases the odds of us getting one. Consider that pretty much every single mini game ever has the potential for town to have a medic/jailkeeper/etc, the reason for this being that even the threat of having a protective role means mafia can't just shoot whomever they want, whenever they want.
You guys are talking as if mafia having the roleblocker is dangerous because they can roleblock any blue claims, but that makes no sense. If we have no medic, mafia don't need to roleblock, they just shoot claimers in the face. If there is no medic in the setup, then roleblocker is an almost completely useless role for mafia. Think someone is blue? Shoot them in the face. Someone claims? Shoot them in the face.
The reason that we have a much better chance of getting a medic by choosing roleblocker is that cop and tracker are far and away the worst roles for town in this setup, especially considering that mafia might get gf/framer. Tracker is especially bad, because of the fact that mafia get to choose which one performs the kill, and will always pick whomever is the most town, making the role almost useless unless the tracker holds his abilities until lategame. By picking roleblocker and mafia knowing it, they will likely shy away from giving us the information roles, and instead give us 2 of Vig/Medic/IC. However even if they give us one of those roles and the tracker, the one role they will probably give us is the medic, as I don't think most people realize how important it is to have a medic in a small setup.
Again, having a medic is very important for us, because a medic doesn't even have to make a save and can still turn the tide of a game by forcing mafia to shoot away from the most obvious/strong townies. Picking roleblocker gave us the highest chance of getting that medic.
Did players who became power roles KNOW they were going to be power roles before day 1? Or were they given the exact same vanilla PM as all the other players
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss.
If this is an actual accusation, as in you're willing to vote for me day 1, you better do a hell of a lot better than that. You're essentially saying that you see me as town, but not super duper town(24 hours into the game), so therefore you see me as scum.
If that is your actual argument, and you are willing to follow that through to a lynch, then I don't know what to say to you. There is obviously no rebuttal by me other than just ignoring you and continuing playing.
I'd like you to state in detail why you think I am scum.
I would also like you to state in detail why you picked framer, and what specifically swayed your opinion.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hmm, for some reason I thought the tracker was 2-shot, but that is not the case. That makes tracker a better role.
However, anyone afraid of the roleblocker wasn't really looking at the roles.
Innocent Child: Cannot be roleblocked
1-shot Cop: Basically cannot be roleblocked, since once he claims he no longer has any abilities
Medic: Should never claim, and is extremely difficult to roleblock. Even if he is roleblocked, he still serves his purpose of preventing mafia from shooting indiscriminately.
Vigilante: Doesn't need to claim until both shots are fired, at which point he can no longer be roleblocked.
Tracker: Only role that needs to fear the roleblocker, but fortunately this role is made much stronger by having a roleblocker in the game(since anyone roleblocked is informed). Tracker can find mafia either by tracking someone to a kill, or by tracking someone to a roleblocker. Very good combo for us, and obviously the tracker isn't going to claim until he is sure someone is scum.
Not to mention that having a roleblocker means any cops and trackers know they can trust their results, and we know we can trust their results once they die.
It's very important that people claim if they are roleblocked, as then our tracker(if we have one) always knows who the roleblocker visited.
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Bluelightz, you have some pretty serious sanity issues.
My key is Sbrubbles. I voted for Framer.
+ Show Spoiler +##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ IPHWF FSQHH BENQR FAGOR TWQRU VVGEA AKBXJ AHMXV MWCLU FNKAH RSLKI WMGUJ QTOUP CUDJQ CMXJB NWJSP SEMTU DQAGN EEJGB UZZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message
We should tally up our votes. As I said, mafia would have to be very balsy to try to mess up our voting, even without the previous encryption.
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Uh I was pretty sure I wrote this earlier but apparently I didn't.
People who encrypted their votes can "confirm" whatever they voted, people who didn't encrypt their votes can't. So people who encrypted their votes should really wait until everybody else has said what they voted for. If all the encrypters are town and we claim all of our votes first then this whole scheme would go down the drain because the scum will know the final vote tally. It's not like we need this information pronto anyway.
Yea, I know I already wrote my vote but I didn't think of it until after that.
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The mafia already know the voting results, fyi.
On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
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Oh. Well never mind then.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Aha! Sbrubbles must be mafia!
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Well, let me say that I am very disappointed in wherebugsgo so far. It doesn't look like he cares about town winning this game at all.
In his first post he asks host a question, but he never got an answer to that question even though I got an answer to my questions that I posted later. That didn't bother him at all. His participates in the discussion about poisons and his thoughts are alright but it doesn't look like he cares at all what role we pick for mafia. This is bad because if we end up with split wagons then we cannot know what role they have and they'll end up being able to argue for any role. 1-shot claims and has a green check? They can argue that he checked the godfather. Red check? They can argue that he was framed. They'll be able to push a chaotic agenda way easier than if we know what role they got. Scum knows town roles and the only way town can know scum role is if we get majority+3 or a flip but wherebugsgo doesn't seem to care about majority+3. He doesn't seem to mind if the votes are split evenly across roleblocker+framer at all.
He looks like he doesn't care at all about what happens this game and I that's scummy.
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Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
What's the point in talking about those things when people aren't even in here telling us what they voted?
I'm a bit happy this game is slow so that I don't have so much to read because I'm also in another game which is quite a lot to read but come on, we really need some updates here.
Frankly so far the discussion was very light. We talked about stuff that is very easy to have different opionions about. As mentioned I said I consider the RB less dangerous than a framer. Other people said they think otherwise and as mentioned, that's stuff you can easily talk about as mafia. We need to get something real to talk about and the votes would be a nice start.
So basicly while I've got some things I like about different people I have to take everything with a grain of salt because everything that was said so far could perfectly be the truth for everyone, no matter of alignment. Maybe mafia lied to try and influence people into giving them what they think is more dangerous but it could just be that mafia told the truth as well making it really hard to judge people based on what happened d0.
Long story short: Get in here. I want those votes.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum.
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Yea this doesn't look like his typical scum play.
But wherebugsgo isn't generally this lazy as town either, so we've got a wherebugsgo who is going against his town and his scum meta. Meta isn't something that can be used against wherebugsgo in my opinion, so I'm just going to read his filter and see if it's scummy or townie and I think that he looks like he doesn't care about this game at all and that's scummy. He's not the only one I'm looking at though if you're worried about that.
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something.
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On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote:
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum.
No time to respond to me but you have time to defend your buddy it seems?
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Key:
Laughing Jack
Encryption:
##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
ZZZZZ GTOWD APBBB UCOUL KFCJU KKUER GWVNB AAGIP UKTTS TXOTO UARUM
BUSUL WHIIK SNUBT CUNGL AMKNU KIUPA KAESW LRCWN VFWGM AZZZZ YYYYY
##### End encrypted message
Decrypted: Roleblocker
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On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something.
I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now.
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On May 31 2012 07:55 slOosh wrote:My mafia role PM encryption + Show Spoiler +ZZZZZ XXJTH KKXJL XFJBP FSOJH UJIOT BLWKH AXLFN BQPXQ LFELT VUJHI
RXQWC KPFOV ONBAR MLJAI IAUJW NUOTW JQJVE FRMBF CQBAX LJHWR XCTUW
EAFGF WSFEO CAQLG EFBKC CLMZZ YYYYY
Key: DOYLU-KZYJU-AXOQQ-WRLSJ-QRVCW-WVVPI-ECRTY-CEKKW-CDVNL-HBWJL-UILIR-SMVEE
Translates to -> Picka da framer.
Right now "9" votes are in, and since mafia know the vote tallies (why wouldn't you bring it up beforehand Sbrubbles?) it looks like we will be uncertain what PR mafia has unless the remaining three people claim voting for the same role. That said I don't think vote analysis will do much because of that fact - even if mafia lie it won't be exposed until late game when we would probably have flipped the role by then. The remaining players should still claim their votes, it won't hurt to have.
Framer - (5)
1. Sbrubbles
2. Kurumi
3. Zephirdd
9. wherebugsgo
12. slOosh
Roleblocker - (4)
6. prplhz
7. talismania
10. Radfield
11. risk.nuke
Didn't claim - (3)
4. HiroPro
5. Navillus
8. Toadesstern <- You forgot to post your role vote.
This town is suffering a severe case of inactivity and no doubt scum are happy to coast on that.
risk.nuke I would like to hear more from you. Do you still think Radfield is scum after his explanation?
Also,
On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote:
Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying.
I don't understand - did you think the poison applies to the selection phase? Right now you've shown minimal interest in anything.
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I said I voted RB before the deadline oO
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It was unclear if you voted or it was your intent to vote it. Thus at 5-5 we don't know what mafia have ... unfortunate. The other two should still claim.
What are your thoughts on Sbrubble's "withholding information" on mafia getting the voting results?
I totally forgot about that part but it seems like he knew all along and that would have helped us consolidate roles harder early on.
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I knew that part as well and thought everyone did.
I checked that section like 5 times to be sure on how to vote, who has to vote what and stuff. Remember when people asked wether mafia gets to vote together with town about the mafia roles? Or the poison? I thought early on we don't have a poison on d1 because we only vote at n1 as in, first poison on d2.
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now.
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prplhz
What is it about radfield that is so convincing to you?
(1)
First,
On May 30 2012 20:01 prplhz wrote:
Since the mafia role selection is done in PMs and we're not going to have the voting results or the role itself revealed, scum is free to do whatever. There are only two ways to know for sure what role mafia got and that is 1) to get majority+3 voting for a single role and 2) flip the scum who got the role. talismania's encrypted vote idea should be implemented because it's never going to hurt and it will create some content that we can use for analysis.
Regarding the roles: Godfather is the safest because scum can only use it in two ways (have Godfather carry out night kills or not), this will make for the least confusion among potential town blues. Framer is the worst to give them because it will allow scum (and also townies and blues) to question all checks made by cop/tracker. Role blocker is also potentially useful for scum, especially in connection with claims (and counterclaims and fake claims) which I think could become very important this game.
Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked?
I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it. So I think we should all agree that Godfather is the safest thing we can do because it allows for the least manipulation by scum and the simplest logic always applying for town. The only down side is that potential cop can't always trust town checks but that's very much acceptable. I don't think scum will focus much on the role that they get when they consider the roles that they give us.
Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles?
As for the poison, my thoughts have already been stated. We should try to eliminate poisons that get stronger as early as possible. Majority+1 and secret vote are the best candidates for this. Here are my thoughts (list is malleable):
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot
Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock
Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch
Some people already said that we will be at even number players all game long baring medic saves, but vigilantes could also screw this up. Also, the no flip is not only alignment, it is also role which may suck since we cannot know if we killed the Godfather or just a goon.
@Kurumi Could you give us the reason behind your thoughts?
Then
Bunch of radfield posts about roleblocker being the weakest scum role
Followed by
On May 30 2012 22:31 prplhz wrote:
Okay I'm convinced by Radfield. Either we get investigative roles we can trust, or we get roles from vigilante/medic/child pool which is pretty sweet. Both child and vigilante can easily confirm themselves and a medic save would extend the game by a full day.
Anyway, I'm voting for role blocker. I was a little worried about role blocker interfering with power roles but the chance of even hitting power roles isn't that big and we shouldn't rely on them too much anyway.
(2)
First,
On June 01 2012 00:38 prplhz wrote:Well, let me say that I am very disappointed in wherebugsgo so far. It doesn't look like he cares about town winning this game at all. In his first post he asks host a question, but he never got an answer to that question even though I got an answer to my questions that I posted later. That didn't bother him at all. His participates in the discussion about poisons and his thoughts are alright but it doesn't look like he cares at all what role we pick for mafia. This is bad because if we end up with split wagons then we cannot know what role they have and they'll end up being able to argue for any role. 1-shot claims and has a green check? They can argue that he checked the godfather. Red check? They can argue that he was framed. They'll be able to push a chaotic agenda way easier than if we know what role they got. Scum knows town roles and the only way town can know scum role is if we get majority+3 or a flip but wherebugsgo doesn't seem to care about majority+3. He doesn't seem to mind if the votes are split evenly across roleblocker+framer at all. He looks like he doesn't care at all about what happens this game and I that's scummy.
Then
On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote:
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum.
Followed by
On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
Yea this doesn't look like his typical scum play.
But wherebugsgo isn't generally this lazy as town either, so we've got a wherebugsgo who is going against his town and his scum meta. Meta isn't something that can be used against wherebugsgo in my opinion, so I'm just going to read his filter and see if it's scummy or townie and I think that he looks like he doesn't care about this game at all and that's scummy. He's not the only one I'm looking at though if you're worried about that.
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something.
_____________________________
Finally,
What do you make of kurumi's case on Radfield?
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Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
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Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW
Choose Godfather, I did.
On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about.
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Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote?
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@talismania Your first example says "a bunch of Radfield posts about roleblocker" and those were what was convincing. Radfield clearly put a lot more work into thinking about the setup and making his thoughts clear than the framer supporters.
I think that day0 was horrible because scum looks to be in a position where they can screw with town and we can't know what they actually picked. I have no idea about your guys who picked framer, not because you picked framer because it's debatable whether or not roleblocker is actually the best role. The role itself is hard to use (but so is roleblocker) but fact is that scum can use it to spread confusion by arguing against any checks. Checks aren't very strong in the first place and now they're going to get even worse. Anyway, the worst thing is that in the position we're in now it looks like scum can screw with town even more, because we don't know what role they got and then they can just argue that they have roleblocker if that fits their agenda and that they have framer if that fits their agenda. This game is open setup for scum right now and semi-closed for town and I think that's a huge blunder by town. The most important thing we had to do day1 was agree and I seriously expected anybody who disagreed with roleblocker to make convincing arguments for framer but all I ever saw was "it's hard to use" and some poorly thought through "it will mess with claims" (I'm guilty of that myself) and both of those arguments were addressed.
Your second example, Radfield didn't convince me of anything. I have played with scum wherebugsgo and I know that he's usually a lot more active and he likes to have a lot of thread presence. Like I wrote in my reply, I chose to ignore that kind of meta because it's very useless with wherebugsgo. He's a strong and active scum player and he's a strong and active town player. Now he's not active. That's scummy.
Kurumi's case on Radfield didn't convince me. It was based on Radfield promising that he would explain something sufficiently in the beginning of day1, and then Kurumi called him scum because he didn't explain it right now. Kurumi felt that pushing roleblocker was a scummy agenda and that Radfield was making promisses he couldn't keep just to further this and I think that idea is far fetched. Additionally, Radfield did explain and I think it looks legit.
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Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles.
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On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about.
Radfield seemed to care too much about Town picking Roleblocker. He was all on guns to push it through, while supplying his argument with pure crap, like that we will be able to trust every check with a Roleblocker, which is obviously false. Yes, Roleblocker is the best role for scum, Radfield tried to sway the opinion of the people saying that Roleblocker will grant US best roles, which is not the case. Vigilante? Pfff. Doctor? Yeah, really. Child? As I said, it takes an insane man to pick that role. Tracker is the best role out there. One-time Cop sucks, but he CAN'T FAIL like Vigilante can.
Also his argument that "if we make it public that we are picking roleblocker it makes mafia pick those roles!"
and then "it doesn't matter if we make it public, they will pick same roles anyway" It was fishing for votes so they could pick good roles. RB is unlimited use and can be used actively and works versus every role.
@WBG
Obviously. Actually, my real scum meta is that I don't troll and try to lay down (I did troll a bit in my last scum game, though) I didn't troll in some games too.
So yeah, thanks for the finger point, now what?
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On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles.
Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this?
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On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this?
On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between.
A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this.
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Pffffffffffffft given your reasoning Radfield Mafia's best course of action would be picking Vigilante no matter what and one of the Tracker/Cop, because "Medic is so good".
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What I wanted to say is that Radfield thinks Medic should not be picked by Mafia no matter what and that Roleblocker gives us SLIM chances (compared to 0 when giving them framer/gf) because it's so good. This means Radfield believes Mafia would never pick Medic with any role, even with Roleblocker because it would be shooting their own foot.
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@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke?
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On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke?
No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun.
Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win.
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On June 01 2012 03:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
I don't call out people early on the first 48 hours. I usually imply heavily what I want people to understand to check if people are thinking themselves or at least caring enough to ask questions.
And you find that if you read my posts.
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On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win.
So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic.
Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
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On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this.
I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0?
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On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about.
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf?
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On June 01 2012 03:50 prplhz wrote:
@talismania Your first example says "a bunch of Radfield posts about roleblocker" and those were what was convincing. Radfield clearly put a lot more work into thinking about the setup and making his thoughts clear than the framer supporters.
I think that day0 was horrible because scum looks to be in a position where they can screw with town and we can't know what they actually picked. I have no idea about your guys who picked framer, not because you picked framer because it's debatable whether or not roleblocker is actually the best role. The role itself is hard to use (but so is roleblocker) but fact is that scum can use it to spread confusion by arguing against any checks. Checks aren't very strong in the first place and now they're going to get even worse. Anyway, the worst thing is that in the position we're in now it looks like scum can screw with town even more, because we don't know what role they got and then they can just argue that they have roleblocker if that fits their agenda and that they have framer if that fits their agenda. This game is open setup for scum right now and semi-closed for town and I think that's a huge blunder by town. The most important thing we had to do day1 was agree and I seriously expected anybody who disagreed with roleblocker to make convincing arguments for framer but all I ever saw was "it's hard to use" and some poorly thought through "it will mess with claims" (I'm guilty of that myself) and both of those arguments were addressed.
Your second example, Radfield didn't convince me of anything. I have played with scum wherebugsgo and I know that he's usually a lot more active and he likes to have a lot of thread presence. Like I wrote in my reply, I chose to ignore that kind of meta because it's very useless with wherebugsgo. He's a strong and active scum player and he's a strong and active town player. Now he's not active. That's scummy.
Kurumi's case on Radfield didn't convince me. It was based on Radfield promising that he would explain something sufficiently in the beginning of day1, and then Kurumi called him scum because he didn't explain it right now. Kurumi felt that pushing roleblocker was a scummy agenda and that Radfield was making promisses he couldn't keep just to further this and I think that idea is far fetched. Additionally, Radfield did explain and I think it looks legit.
Actually I missed where you said he was scummy again in your reply to radfield when I read your post the first time - fair point. Before it seemed strange to me that it happened twice like perhaps you were trying to blend in and whatnot.
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On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS.
Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it.
Besides, THINK.
Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE?
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Did mafia get voting results in real time or after the deadline?
I'm assuming it was after the deadline but if it was real time then I guess my encryption thing was pretty pointless.
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On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0?
On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf?
Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).
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On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE?
Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker.
Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop.
Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town".
No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine).
Is there any reason to then question that check?
The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked).
This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:27 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote:
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. No time to respond to me but you have time to defend your buddy it seems?
On May 31 2012 07:36 Radfield wrote:
I have time, but it is limited. I want to spend it filtering. How bout if I fail to do anything constructive then you can come at me for being scummy. I'll tell you what, you form nice coherent arguments you want me to respond to, and I will respond.
On June 01 2012 03:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
Agreed, Toad is acting a bit strange, and Kurumi is off the wall sure I am scum 24 hours into the game, simply because he disagrees with me.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:55 Kurumi wrote:
Radfield seemed to care too much about Town picking Roleblocker. He was all on guns to push it through, while supplying his argument with pure crap, like that we will be able to trust every check with a Roleblocker, which is obviously false. Yes, Roleblocker is the best role for scum, Radfield tried to sway the opinion of the people saying that Roleblocker will grant US best roles, which is not the case. Vigilante? Pfff. Doctor? Yeah, really. Child? As I said, it takes an insane man to pick that role. Tracker is the best role out there. One-time Cop sucks, but he CAN'T FAIL like Vigilante can.
Also his argument that "if we make it public that we are picking roleblocker it makes mafia pick those roles!"
and then "it doesn't matter if we make it public, they will pick same roles anyway" It was fishing for votes so they could pick good roles. RB is unlimited use and can be used actively and works versus every role.
@WBG
Obviously. Actually, my real scum meta is that I don't troll and try to lay down (I did troll a bit in my last scum game, though) I didn't troll in some games too.
So yeah, thanks for the finger point, now what?
Correct, if we knew a roleblocker was in the mix, our trackers and cops would be able to trust every check. In addition, we can trust every check 100% from confirmed cops and trackers(ie dead cops and trackers). Obviously I was never stating that we can trust every claim only that every confirmed check is 100%. Unlike now, where every confirmed check is pretty much garbage.
In a mini-game setup with no medics, mafia have basically no need at all for a roleblocker, because they simply shoot whomever they think is blue. It's a simple concept Kurumi, I'm not sure why you're struggling with it. Additionally, we only have 1 role that even has to worry about being roleblocked, because all our other claiming roles are 1 or 2 shot.
I would argue that framer is far and away the best role for mafia in this setup as it immediately makes two of our roles next to useless. Whereas roleblocker only has the potential to significantly hinder a tracker.
You're argument for me being scum is basically that you disagree with me. If there is more than that then please let me know.
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE? Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker. Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop. Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town". No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine). Is there any reason to then question that check? The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked). This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
No, mafia know what roles are in the game, and presumably can fake claim a role which does not exist(therefore not getting counter-claimed). However, once a single blue role flips, our second REAL blue role will counter claim the cop, so the mafia will get busted eventually, just not right away.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
Tracker, in my opinion, is the weakest town role overall (worse than 1-shot cop), but it's worse, not better, against a roleblocker than against a framer around. Framer is very unlikely to mess up a tracker early on (though yeah, it's possible), but if a roleblocker is around mafia have the option of discrediting the tracker by leaving him alive and roleblocking him (if he didn't manage to convince town of his check). He'll be still alive but roleblocked, which means chaos for the following day. Also, remember that framer is only 2 shot.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 19:02 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss. Then you don't know me very well Zephridd I skim read all the time, and I do mean all the time. The strength of my play is that I go back and reread many times, and filter everyone many times. Knowing when you can skim and when you need to pay attention is something every good player utilizes, particularly when time is short. Yesterday I had points I wanted to make, and not enough time to do it in(particularly in the morning, when I didn't even finish my post). I obviously picked roleblocker. Anyways, the reason we publicly wanted roleblocker is that we desperately want a medic in this setup, and mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker dramatically increases the odds of us getting one. Consider that pretty much every single mini game ever has the potential for town to have a medic/jailkeeper/etc, the reason for this being that even the threat of having a protective role means mafia can't just shoot whomever they want, whenever they want. You guys are talking as if mafia having the roleblocker is dangerous because they can roleblock any blue claims, but that makes no sense. If we have no medic, mafia don't need to roleblock, they just shoot claimers in the face. If there is no medic in the setup, then roleblocker is an almost completely useless role for mafia. Think someone is blue? Shoot them in the face. Someone claims? Shoot them in the face. The reason that we have a much better chance of getting a medic by choosing roleblocker is that cop and tracker are far and away the worst roles for town in this setup, especially considering that mafia might get gf/framer. Tracker is especially bad, because of the fact that mafia get to choose which one performs the kill, and will always pick whomever is the most town, making the role almost useless unless the tracker holds his abilities until lategame. By picking roleblocker and mafia knowing it, they will likely shy away from giving us the information roles, and instead give us 2 of Vig/Medic/IC. However even if they give us one of those roles and the tracker, the one role they will probably give us is the medic, as I don't think most people realize how important it is to have a medic in a small setup. Again, having a medic is very important for us, because a medic doesn't even have to make a save and can still turn the tide of a game by forcing mafia to shoot away from the most obvious/strong townies. Picking roleblocker gave us the highest chance of getting that medic. Did players who became power roles KNOW they were going to be power roles before day 1? Or were they given the exact same vanilla PM as all the other players
@Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
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On June 01 2012 05:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE? Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker. Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop. Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town". No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine). Is there any reason to then question that check? The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked). This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes). No, mafia know what roles are in the game, and presumably can fake claim a role which does not exist(therefore not getting counter-claimed). However, once a single blue role flips, our second REAL blue role will counter claim the cop, so the mafia will get busted eventually, just not right away.
I just realized that as well and was about to ebwop myself. Regardless I doubt there would be a fake claim for those reasons exactly except for maybe late in the game when it was close to mylo/lylo and scum were going for some sort of weird way to guarantee they make it there.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:13 Sbrubbles wrote:
@Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
My thinking is that tracker/vig or tracker/cop vs a roleblocker is really unbalanced in favor of town, so if they wanted to give us that, more power to them. I hadn't considered them being able to realize if they'd successfully blocked a cop or vig, but that's a good point, and does give the roleblocker role more potency.
Either way, us landing 5-5 right now on Framer vs Roleblocker is fantastic as it has the potential to basically give us a list-check later on down the line.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, was it obvious to you yesterday that the vote was between framer and roleblocker?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
nvm, just reread your post.
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On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, if you were mafia, what roles would you give town?
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sooooo, back to inactivity?
I wanted to play this more like C9++ #2 again, I already have a game where I'm all over the place...
If hiro is not answering the question goes to everyone else: What do you think about the GF vote?
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Uhh - as someone who uses icons to identify players, I might get Toad mixed up with the other devourers :/
Anyways, Hiro's GF vote is fine. His explanation shows that he thought it through (false positives? I didn't even consider that), makes sense in the context of not knowing what role might be picked, and furthermore it is something that knowingly invites attention on himself which he is handling fine.
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I guess that means
##vote HiroPro
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On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote:On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather). Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB. Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk. I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over. If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd.
I have already explained to you why I didn't believe directly revealing my vote before day 1 was a good idea. Mafia needs to know what role is being given to them so they can pick appropriate roles to give to town. Town only needs to know what role was given to mafia when day 1 has started. This is why the encryption was a good idea; it locks people's votes so that mafia cannot change their "votes" in response to what they actually got, while town still receives the information that they need.
If you really believe that mafia will vote exactly like how you expect them to (1-1-1), then lol.
On June 01 2012 05:31 Radfield wrote:
Hiropro, if you were mafia, what roles would you give town?
Tracker, no matter what, only 1 member of mafia needs to carry out the kill and it's very unlikely that tracker will be able to track them, considering that mafia can choose who to send out for the kill. Additionally, since the role visit overwrites the kill visit, the chances of tracker being able to identify mafia by seeing them visit the person who died is even lower.
Medic, if roleblocker is what is expected.
1-shot cop, if framer or godfather are expected.
If the town team is much worse compared to the mafia team, vig instead of medic/cop.
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Gahhh!!! Please post people! From the looks of it we are just going to scramble to get a lurker lynch hours before the deadline.
Kurumi - thoughts on anything besides Radfield?
Sbrubbles - thoughts on Kurumi / Radfield?
risk.nuke & Navillus - please post something. thoughts on each other, Kurumi and Sbrubbles?
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Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers.
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##vote Kurumi
Kurumi is literally the easiest person on this forum to meta analyze. Any time he is town he's laid back and he doesn't care what he posts. He trolls, links videos, TF2 memes, etc. He is not cryptic as town but tries to be funny.
I think his more recent scum game was jubjub, but I didn't read much of it. There was a game I caught him this way when I was town, and then there was AC where I used that tactic as scum to nail Kurumi as 3rd party.
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Key: LQFSH-QASBA-YLXPQ-NRQIR-GHEZR-QKFLB-FSHPM-VLKAN-RYVSG-WXHHT-IKNVL-VMLNS
Vote: + Show Spoiler +ZZZZZ GVRSG KTULX EDLNH OTJLU XGKUU XEIOK PKIWI IRUCV RDGQQ QBGFF
DQRJI ASFKU XLUBV AXNFG VETUB WWJRT JEHTD HOBHO PVHKB UZZZZ YYYYY
I voted roleblocker
Hiro I don't entirely understand, if you think mafia would choose tracker no matter what why choose GF, RB seems like the best role to give them if we're probably gonna get a tracker.
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Ninjaed EBWOP: I will at some point look at Kurumi's meta to check that out but if you're really sure of that it would be very helpful if you linked some of the posts in this game and some of the games in his meta that lead you to this WBG
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On June 01 2012 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote:
##vote Kurumi
Kurumi is literally the easiest person on this forum to meta analyze. Any time he is town he's laid back and he doesn't care what he posts. He trolls, links videos, TF2 memes, etc. He is not cryptic as town but tries to be funny.
I think his more recent scum game was jubjub, but I didn't read much of it. There was a game I caught him this way when I was town, and then there was AC where I used that tactic as scum to nail Kurumi as 3rd party.
I find your case to be lacking. I don't see much difference between Kurumi's style this game and his style in L (the only normal game as town I could find in his profile). Posting pictures of Saddam Hussein and asking to be given double vig can hardly be considered serious.
On June 01 2012 11:00 Navillus wrote:
Hiro I don't entirely understand, if you think mafia would choose tracker no matter what why choose GF, RB seems like the best role to give them if we're probably gonna get a tracker.
Because I feel that tracker is a fairly worthless role, no matter what scum team has. It makes more sense to me to give them a role that is really only good against tracker than to give a role that is effective against almost anything.
Zephirdd
Zephirdd's posting is not that of town. During the poison voting phase, Zephir spends most of his time repeating what others say (read through the thread at this phase). He offers very little insight of his own.
On May 31 2012 04:54 Zephirdd wrote:Guys remember to vote on the voting thread!
On May 31 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Kurumi and wbg need to vote
On May 31 2012 10:32 Zephirdd wrote:
On May 31 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Kurumi and wbg need to vote
lol nvm im stupid
wbg and someone else needs to vote >_>'
Posts like these are posts for the sake of posting. Everyone posts like this from time to time; but for Zephir, these posts are a huge part of his filter.
[B]On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:
Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say.
Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes.
Discuss.
This is about as wishy-washy and noncomittal as you'll ever see in a "accusation" (Zephir's words). Not only did Radfield already address his initial refusal to do encryption, but Zephir is trying very hard to make an accusation without actually making one (3 different descriptions for Radfield's play in one line)"and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes."
Zephirdd has a lack of useful posting, a large amount of "filler", and avoids taking strong stances. He is scum.
Vote: Zephirdd
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wtf I was just halfway through typing up a FoS on zepphirrd. Funnily enough I found the latter half of his filter more damning. I'll finish and post it in a second.
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Two storylines this game -
(1) Kurumi - Radfield
(2) HiroPro
Both strike me as somewhat of red herrings, 1 more so than 2. I lean town on both Kurumi and Radfield. Kurumi because of how unnecessarily out-of-nowhere his case against Radfield comes, and how early. He obviously plays by a different playbook than most but that seems really uncautious of a scum move. Radfield I've never played with before but he seemed to be slipping into a town leader role like I saw in I'm a Cop You Idiot. I am surprised I haven't seen a case from him yet though. HiroPro's GF vote seems too good to be true. Now that we have Navillus's vote it seems like he actually was the only one to vote GF. Either the scum team really did 1-1-1, or he really was ignorant to the framer-roleblocker debate. And if the scum team did 1-1-1 then the other scum must have been similarly oblivious and that seems unlikely.
If both truly are red herrings, they're likely good things for scum to try and latch onto and drive momentum towards. With that in mind, consider zepphird:
First he kind of fishes around on Radfield:
On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss.
Then he drives the HiroPro story a bit:
On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote:
Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote?
On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this?
Then, after no one else is jumping on Radfield, he jumps off and hints at looking at Kurumi (who made the Radfield case):
On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers.
There's almost too much of it to be true but on first blow, to me, it is indicative of scum trying to get a feel for the way winds are blowing in the town, hence the FoS.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm not sure I like a Kurumi lynch today. I agree with bugs that his town meta is troll vs a scum meta of serious, but his accusation of me seems genuine. His whole case is based on him disagreeing with my opinions, and it would be really strange for a scum player to come that hard out of the gate in an accusation based solely upon feeling framer is a better pick than RB. I just don't think scum would have that kind of conviction, or base a case on it. I think the reason he is playing serious right now is because he saw something in my play that made him jump, and he followed it through.
I'm not completely against a hiropro lynch right now, though I need to reread his filter. He spent almost all of day 0 discussing the poisons, and a proportionally small amount talking about the roles. His reasoning for picking gf does seem legit, but that doesn't clear him in my eyes.
The problem right now is there was a lot for scum to discuss on Day 0, and a lot for them to potentially contribute to town, without actually helping town all that much.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Sloosh might actually be a decent lynch for today. Timid demeanor, not stepping on any toes, 'helpful' posts
Sloosh, you keep asking for other peoples opinions, but what are YOUR opinions? Radfield, Kurumi, risk.nuke, sbrubbles? Thoughs on those players?
On June 01 2012 08:54 slOosh wrote:
Anyways, Hiro's GF vote is fine. His explanation shows that he thought it through (false positives? I didn't even consider that), makes sense in the context of not knowing what role might be picked, and furthermore it is something that knowingly invites attention on himself which he is handling fine.
I disagree that hiropro's gf vote is 'fine'. While I agree that his gf pick has reasoning, it still doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of our day 1 discussion. There was almost no discussion of gf, and hiropro certainly made no attempt to sway any other players to vote for it. I'm not saying that makes his scum, but he certainly gets no credit for it either. The fact that he is the only gf player, when scum put themselves at risk by doing anything but 1-1-1, is very noteworthy. I haven't quite wrapped my mind around what it means if scum voted 2-1 though, and what we can possibly glean from that.
I do agree that we need more from risk.nuke though, but that's obvious at this point.
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I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
Look at his day1 contributions. It's literally been two posts where he says he wants to lynch Kurumi because Kurumi isn't posting TF2 videos, nevermind that Kurumi did post pictures of Sadam Hussein and that Kurumi has played more seriously as town in his last few games.
Also, we need to remember that we can't have people are majority-1, if someone is at majority-2 then you have to agree with somebody else to hammer them. This is because scum has a secret vote and will just hammer any majority-1 if they are town.
I'm around, shoot me some questions if you want. I don't want to comment on everybody but I'll comment on some if people want me to.
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
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On June 01 2012 10:07 slOosh wrote:
Gahhh!!! Please post people! From the looks of it we are just going to scramble to get a lurker lynch hours before the deadline.
Kurumi - thoughts on anything besides Radfield?
Sbrubbles - thoughts on Kurumi / Radfield?
risk.nuke & Navillus - please post something. thoughts on each other, Kurumi and Sbrubbles?
Kurumi's case on Radfield is based on the assumption that roleblocker is hand-down the worst role to give mafia. Though I partially agree with him (I voted for framer), I don't agree it's an obvious thing. The way Rad argue it was decent and well-reasoned.
The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built solely on meta. What is interesting is that he makes his whole argument with basis on game mechanics (better yet, his opinions on game mechanics), which would be the "safest" way for mafia to be pushing for a mislynch at D1. It feels a bit scummy, but I'm still mostly null on him.
I'm very suspicious of HiroPro right now. His GF vote doesn't make sense to me from a town perspective and I'm not convinced on his Zephirdd push.
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EBWOP: First line, second paragraph should read: The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built on meta.
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I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
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I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird.
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Holy shit noone will ever get my name right, will ya?
anyways, let me explain my thought proccess. Day0 people apparently forgot to vote or were forgetting the obvious; its very common for a player to forget stuff and then be reminded when seeing it on the thread. Heck, there were games I would only realize I hadnt voted when someone called me out. What is the problem with trying to remind the same?
second, I changed opinions far too quickly. Basically, I was convinced by Radfield's arguments on the RB. Then Kurumi convinced me about Rad being scum. Then after the day, and wbg pointing out Kurumi's meta, I had to rethink things and decided Rad was right; if I could, I'd switch back to RB pick. I have to look at L though.
but hey, yknow what is bad? Risk's post is bad. Points fingers at three people without saying anything.
ps. Posting from phone is a pain @_@
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Oh yea I totally forgot.
I apparently didn't get my vote counted 'cause I screwed up and only sent it to Bluelightz and not to kitaman27.
Just so you know it.
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On June 01 2012 23:45 prplhz wrote:
Oh yea I totally forgot.
I apparently didn't get my vote counted 'cause I screwed up and only sent it to Bluelightz and not to kitaman27.
Just so you know it.
so with you're vote it was 5-5, with Navillus vote it was 6-5 in favor of RB and without your vote (because invalid) it is now 5-5 again?
What is Ties are broken using standard tie-breaking procedures. ?
Whoever got "majority" first? As in if the last PM kita receives was a RB vote it's framer and if the last PM kita receives was framer it is RB for mafia?
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No.
If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected.
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gosh
On the hiro matter, because prphlz vote does matter:
Hiro looks a lot better on the first look imo but here's the thing. Hiro answered us "Would I really claim I voted GF when I am mafia as the only one?" and that gave me a thought. Now this prphlz business is somewhat important here.
On the first look it seems like hiro looks way better because prphlz frankly got in here telling us "sup guyses, haven't voted" which is equal to the 1-1-1 thing I mentioned earlier. So hiro looks better because prphlz looks equally bad and yet the same question comes up: Would Prphlz get in here like that as mafia? I doubt it but again, I already said after PYP I'm not going to use that logic anymore lol.
But here's the important thing that made me reconsider the hiro part: He said something along the lines of "would I really claim GF as mafia?". Now here's the OP
The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
I HIGHLY doubt the voting result would be something like "sup guys, You've got RB" or "sup guys, you've got framer" because mafia could figure that out themselves just fine the moment one of them gets to be RB or framer so I'd say they get the real voting results.
Let's assume prphlz is telling the truth for a second. If that's the case mafia knew there was one guy who has not voted because that's simple math. If that's the case it's perfectly reasonable to just claim GF because there's someone out there who's looking equally bad or even worse.
Fancy conclusion: I'd say hiro knows exactly what he's doing and is hoping that the other guy looks worse or at least equally bad while still having the benefits of the 1-1-1 thing. Remember Hiro has not made it clear what he wanted to vote and while that may have benefits it makes the perfect excuse for this scenario we're in right now.
I'd say we have found mafia in hiro.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
What do people think about sbrubbles right now? I'd like to look more into him when I have time, as his most recent post is tickling my scum senses.
I'm considering voting zephirdd though. Anyone else willing to vote Z-man?
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On June 02 2012 00:19 Toadesstern wrote:gosh On the hiro matter, because prphlz vote does matter:Hiro looks a lot better on the first look imo but here's the thing. Hiro answered us "Would I really claim I voted GF when I am mafia as the only one?" and that gave me a thought. Now this prphlz business is somewhat important here. On the first look it seems like hiro looks way better because prphlz frankly got in here telling us "sup guyses, haven't voted" which is equal to the 1-1-1 thing I mentioned earlier. So hiro looks better because prphlz looks equally bad and yet the same question comes up: Would Prphlz get in here like that as mafia? I doubt it but again, I already said after PYP I'm not going to use that logic anymore lol. But here's the important thing that made me reconsider the hiro part: He said something along the lines of "would I really claim GF as mafia?". Now here's the OP Show nested quote +The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results. I HIGHLY doubt the voting result would be something like "sup guys, You've got RB" or "sup guys, you've got framer" because mafia could figure that out themselves just fine the moment one of them gets to be RB or framer so I'd say they get the real voting results. Let's assume prphlz is telling the truth for a second. If that's the case mafia knew there was one guy who has not voted because that's simple math. If that's the case it's perfectly reasonable to just claim GF because there's someone out there who's looking equally bad or even worse. Fancy conclusion: I'd say hiro knows exactly what he's doing and is hoping that the other guy looks worse or at least equally bad while still having the benefits of the 1-1-1 thing. Remember Hiro has not made it clear what he wanted to vote and while that may have benefits it makes the perfect excuse for this scenario we're in right now. I'd say we have found mafia in hiro.
This hurts my head - first,
Does mafia getting the voting results mean that they got the results of who everyone voted for? Just the totals? Just the winner?
Second, if they did get full results, how could that have any bearing on hiro's play? He voted GF before the deadline no matter what, therefore he would have to explain it no matter what. How does he modify that knowing that prp didn't vote?
I think there are less convoluted reasons to vote Hiro that people have already raised, if you're going to vote Hiro.
(On a sidenote toad I think I owe you an apology because it looks like you were right about the difficulty in getting to a majority day one.)
___________________
@Radfield
Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum.
I'm curious about how you're thinking about the game as a whole - you've also been throwing some names out as though to see what sticks (sloosh, sbrubbles, zephirdd) but I haven't seen anything like the analysis you did to parse apart Blazinghand and tunkeg in I'm a cop you Idiot. For instance, is your consideration of voting zephirdd based on what hiro said, what I said, what you thought yourself, etc?
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Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum.
What do you expect me to do as town? Just let people think I'm scum or something? I changed my mind too fast; there is all I can say about it. You just played(or rather, watched) a game where I was scum(or rather, had a scum mindset). Let me show you the biggest difference between me and my play on PYP I am being sincere.
Sorry, but I wouldn't even consider changing my mind as scum, no matter what. I'd stick to what I said at first and try to create the most chaos I could. Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
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On June 02 2012 02:15 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 00:19 Toadesstern wrote:gosh On the hiro matter, because prphlz vote does matter:Hiro looks a lot better on the first look imo but here's the thing. Hiro answered us "Would I really claim I voted GF when I am mafia as the only one?" and that gave me a thought. Now this prphlz business is somewhat important here. On the first look it seems like hiro looks way better because prphlz frankly got in here telling us "sup guyses, haven't voted" which is equal to the 1-1-1 thing I mentioned earlier. So hiro looks better because prphlz looks equally bad and yet the same question comes up: Would Prphlz get in here like that as mafia? I doubt it but again, I already said after PYP I'm not going to use that logic anymore lol. But here's the important thing that made me reconsider the hiro part: He said something along the lines of "would I really claim GF as mafia?". Now here's the OP The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results. I HIGHLY doubt the voting result would be something like "sup guys, You've got RB" or "sup guys, you've got framer" because mafia could figure that out themselves just fine the moment one of them gets to be RB or framer so I'd say they get the real voting results. Let's assume prphlz is telling the truth for a second. If that's the case mafia knew there was one guy who has not voted because that's simple math. If that's the case it's perfectly reasonable to just claim GF because there's someone out there who's looking equally bad or even worse. Fancy conclusion: I'd say hiro knows exactly what he's doing and is hoping that the other guy looks worse or at least equally bad while still having the benefits of the 1-1-1 thing. Remember Hiro has not made it clear what he wanted to vote and while that may have benefits it makes the perfect excuse for this scenario we're in right now. I'd say we have found mafia in hiro. This hurts my head - first, Does mafia getting the voting results mean that they got the results of who everyone voted for? Just the totals? Just the winner?Second, if they did get full results, how could that have any bearing on hiro's play? He voted GF before the deadline no matter what, therefore he would have to explain it no matter what. How does he modify that knowing that prp didn't vote? I think there are less convoluted reasons to vote Hiro that people have already raised, if you're going to vote Hiro. (On a sidenote toad I think I owe you an apology because it looks like you were right about the difficulty in getting to a majority day one.) ___________________ @Radfield Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum. I'm curious about how you're thinking about the game as a whole - you've also been throwing some names out as though to see what sticks (sloosh, sbrubbles, zephirdd) but I haven't seen anything like the analysis you did to parse apart Blazinghand and tunkeg in I'm a cop you Idiot. For instance, is your consideration of voting zephirdd based on what hiro said, what I said, what you thought yourself, etc?
2 things:
1):
As mentioned, I take it mafia gets more just the winner because they get that automatically the moment they realize someone is a RB or a framer (or GF for that matter), therefore there would be no need to mention something like "mafia get the results afterwards" in the OP. But yeah, guess it's a good idea to just ask lol.
2):
I am saying hiro is mafia who never voted and said he voted GF once he knew there's someone else who voted not-GF / not-RB as well. But yeah you're right that's a huge brainfart, he announced the vote before deadline so that can't be the motivation for voting GF
I'd however still say there's a mafia between hiro and prphlz and imo it's way more likely that guy is hiro.
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I'm okay with lynching Sbrubbles.
wherebugsgo apparently isn't going anywhere. Both him, Navilus, and especially risk.nuke need to post more.
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On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. On June 02 2012 01:10 Radfield wrote:
What do people think about sbrubbles right now? I'd like to look more into him when I have time, as his most recent post is tickling my scum senses.
I'm considering voting zephirdd though. Anyone else willing to vote Z-man? On June 02 2012 03:04 prplhz wrote:
I'm okay with lynching Sbrubbles.
wherebugsgo apparently isn't going anywhere. Both him, Navilus, and especially risk.nuke need to post more.
Wtf are those statements I bolded? What are people supposed to answer to that?
Seriously I don't like people asking "who's willing to lynch X" without giving the slightest hint why they think that way. Sounds like people testing water temperatur with their toes to me and those questions / statements are utterly useless without at least a hint of why you think that way.
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On June 01 2012 22:15 Zephirdd wrote:
Holy shit noone will ever get my name right, will ya?
anyways, let me explain my thought proccess. Day0 people apparently forgot to vote or were forgetting the obvious; its very common for a player to forget stuff and then be reminded when seeing it on the thread. Heck, there were games I would only realize I hadnt voted when someone called me out. What is the problem with trying to remind the same?
second, I changed opinions far too quickly. Basically, I was convinced by Radfield's arguments on the RB. Then Kurumi convinced me about Rad being scum. Then after the day, and wbg pointing out Kurumi's meta, I had to rethink things and decided Rad was right; if I could, I'd switch back to RB pick. I have to look at L though.
but hey, yknow what is bad? Risk's post is bad. Points fingers at three people without saying anything.
ps. Posting from phone is a pain @_@
Wait, so you think I am scum, correct?
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Actually,
##Vote Sbrubbles
I think his posts focus a lot more on how things affect scum than how it affects town which I think scum are prone to do. He also seems too reluctant to vote for HiroPro even though he's "very suspicious" and it's only like 7 hours until lynch. We're kind of in a hurry here.
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I've been asleep. (and I just lost what I was posting from my phone)
I agree with Radfield that Kurumi's aggressiveness based on that singular point is strange and makes him less likely to be mafia. However the meta still agrees, even with the game Kurumi linked. In the beginning of Space Station you can see the tone of Kurumi's posts is much more laid back than here.
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
Navillus looks pretty bad, given that he seems to have no opinions of his own regarding the lynch. Toad I'm a bit unsure of as he's posted more.
Of these players I think a Navillus lynch might be the most productive and likely to flip a scum.
##unvote
##vote Navillus
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Nothing is changing - I'm going to ##vote Zephirdd. My reasoning is already stated, although his last post does give me some pause with the threat at the end. I think HiroPro is still likely a red herring, although part of me would love to see him flip to find out if scum went 1-1-1 or 2-1/3-0. I have a hazy notion that this information can be helpful but every time I try to think it through I find a hole in my reasoning somewhere. Anyone else figured that out?
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On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
I've been asleep. (and I just lost what I was posting from my phone)
I agree with Radfield that Kurumi's aggressiveness based on that singular point is strange and makes him less likely to be mafia. However the meta still agrees, even with the game Kurumi linked. In the beginning of Space Station you can see the tone of Kurumi's posts is much more laid back than here.
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
Navillus looks pretty bad, given that he seems to have no opinions of his own regarding the lynch. Toad I'm a bit unsure of as he's posted more.
Of these players I think a Navillus lynch might be the most productive and likely to flip a scum.
##unvote
##vote Navillus
Storm Mafia
if you want to make your meta argument sound at least a little believable present evidence, thanks
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I will soon reread the thread. I can lay my pitchfork for now.
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@wherebugsgo I don't think that Navilus is scum. First, the guy has never played scum before. Second, his only contributions on day1 so far has been a post saying what he voted, and him calling you out. It doesn't look like he's just trying to avoid mod kill and it very much doesn't look like he's scum trying to hide with only 2 paltry posts during the whole day. I don't think first time scum will not do anything during the day than pick on a town wherebugsgo (but then again, are you town?) Moreover, in the last game I played with him he was also unavailable for a part of the game. You say that he didn't comment on the lynch, one thing that all scum knows to do at all times is have some sort of opinion on the lynch. I'd very much like to keep him around for now.
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie?
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Kurumi I honestly didn't even remember you were in storm mafia.
Navillus not having played scum is not an argument against him being scum. Secondly, I didn't even notice him calling me out. I think most of the players by now have probably noted that I've not been around much. That's due to me sleeping or probably also because I'm in multiple games.
So your argument against lynching Navillus is that new scum don't do scummy things? Lol what?
Besides, he's not new anyway.
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As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means
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Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum.
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On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum.
?!?!?
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On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
[...]
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
[...]
On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
[...]
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie?
On June 02 2012 05:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means
I'm really just asking if you can clarify what you said.
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Yes, Navillus is sticking out so much that he has 1 vote with a handful of hours left into day 1.
Your argument in his defense is impeccable.
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On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum.
Lol.
Your argument is "he is too bad to be scum" right?
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I'm home and reading over the thread right now. Will post my thoughts as soon as I'm done.
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On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
I've been asleep. (and I just lost what I was posting from my phone)
I agree with Radfield that Kurumi's aggressiveness based on that singular point is strange and makes him less likely to be mafia. However the meta still agrees, even with the game Kurumi linked. In the beginning of Space Station you can see the tone of Kurumi's posts is much more laid back than here.
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
Navillus looks pretty bad, given that he seems to have no opinions of his own regarding the lynch. Toad I'm a bit unsure of as he's posted more.
Of these players I think a Navillus lynch might be the most productive and likely to flip a scum.
##unvote
##vote Navillus
Why are you pigeonholing our lynch choices into these three and picking the most scummiest out of them? How does Navillus earn a vote for no opinion on the lynch but risk.nuke's
On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. where hegives absolutely no reasoning or analysis at all (nor anywhere in his filter at all) gets no mention?
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On June 02 2012 05:43 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum. ?!?!?
... really?
I'm saying that I doubt that a scum, especially a first time scum, who has experience playing this game, would play like this. With sarcastic comments and "lol", we're apparently done talking about Navilus. I've made myself clear and I don't really think you're going to get him lynched.
I hope Radfield has some more time soon. Everybody else needs to start talking about the lynch too. risk.nuke is European so I think it's very weird that he hasn't said much about the lynch yet with us approaching deadline like this. It's almost 11PM in Europe.
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cause I didn't read risk nuke's posts.
I don't usually post what I like about people's posts, but for Sbrubbles it's these two posts:
On June 01 2012 05:13 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. Tracker, in my opinion, is the weakest town role overall (worse than 1-shot cop), but it's worse, not better, against a roleblocker than against a framer around. Framer is very unlikely to mess up a tracker early on (though yeah, it's possible), but if a roleblocker is around mafia have the option of discrediting the tracker by leaving him alive and roleblocking him (if he didn't manage to convince town of his check). He'll be still alive but roleblocked, which means chaos for the following day. Also, remember that framer is only 2 shot. + Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 19:02 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss. Then you don't know me very well Zephridd I skim read all the time, and I do mean all the time. The strength of my play is that I go back and reread many times, and filter everyone many times. Knowing when you can skim and when you need to pay attention is something every good player utilizes, particularly when time is short. Yesterday I had points I wanted to make, and not enough time to do it in(particularly in the morning, when I didn't even finish my post). I obviously picked roleblocker. Anyways, the reason we publicly wanted roleblocker is that we desperately want a medic in this setup, and mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker dramatically increases the odds of us getting one. Consider that pretty much every single mini game ever has the potential for town to have a medic/jailkeeper/etc, the reason for this being that even the threat of having a protective role means mafia can't just shoot whomever they want, whenever they want. You guys are talking as if mafia having the roleblocker is dangerous because they can roleblock any blue claims, but that makes no sense. If we have no medic, mafia don't need to roleblock, they just shoot claimers in the face. If there is no medic in the setup, then roleblocker is an almost completely useless role for mafia. Think someone is blue? Shoot them in the face. Someone claims? Shoot them in the face. The reason that we have a much better chance of getting a medic by choosing roleblocker is that cop and tracker are far and away the worst roles for town in this setup, especially considering that mafia might get gf/framer. Tracker is especially bad, because of the fact that mafia get to choose which one performs the kill, and will always pick whomever is the most town, making the role almost useless unless the tracker holds his abilities until lategame. By picking roleblocker and mafia knowing it, they will likely shy away from giving us the information roles, and instead give us 2 of Vig/Medic/IC. However even if they give us one of those roles and the tracker, the one role they will probably give us is the medic, as I don't think most people realize how important it is to have a medic in a small setup. Again, having a medic is very important for us, because a medic doesn't even have to make a save and can still turn the tide of a game by forcing mafia to shoot away from the most obvious/strong townies. Picking roleblocker gave us the highest chance of getting that medic. Did players who became power roles KNOW they were going to be power roles before day 1? Or were they given the exact same vanilla PM as all the other players @Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
On June 01 2012 21:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 10:07 slOosh wrote:
Gahhh!!! Please post people! From the looks of it we are just going to scramble to get a lurker lynch hours before the deadline.
Kurumi - thoughts on anything besides Radfield?
Sbrubbles - thoughts on Kurumi / Radfield?
risk.nuke & Navillus - please post something. thoughts on each other, Kurumi and Sbrubbles? Kurumi's case on Radfield is based on the assumption that roleblocker is hand-down the worst role to give mafia. Though I partially agree with him (I voted for framer), I don't agree it's an obvious thing. The way Rad argue it was decent and well-reasoned. The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built solely on meta. What is interesting is that he makes his whole argument with basis on game mechanics (better yet, his opinions on game mechanics), which would be the "safest" way for mafia to be pushing for a mislynch at D1. It feels a bit scummy, but I'm still mostly null on him. I'm very suspicious of HiroPro right now. His GF vote doesn't make sense to me from a town perspective and I'm not convinced on his Zephirdd push.
The only problem is that Sbrubbles hasn't voted, but I don't think a scum would make posts like these.
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Risk.nuke lynch looks really good.
a) he has not contributed anything so far
b) he "agrees" with me very fast without saying why
c) he gets off Radfield after a while without saying why
d) his last post says he wants to kill one of three guys, this is quite opportunistic
e) his fist post is the only one which looks like it has taken him more than a minute to write
he looks a little like an active lurker. I usually don't like lurker lynches but we're playing a mini so I am up for lynching risk.nuke.
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WBG please answer my first question:
Why are you pigeonholing the lynch choices into these three (referring to Kurumi, Sbrubbles and Navillus) and picking the most scummiest out of them rather than gauging each player individually as scummy or not? There is nothing to indicate that there is or isn't a scum in that group of three.
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sloOsh looks good for me, it's weird that he asks more than posts more himself, but oh well.
Zephirdd is... weird. Doesn't do things himself, changes his opinions, posts a lot of fluff like "go vote" "here's case by Kurumi (without his comment of course) and this is something that makes me uneasy
On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers.
I don't hate lynching lurkers... Never(I just think that there are a lot better options that's why I try to fight against doing it in normal-sized games). As Town, I see them as a valid scum candidates and as scum I see a freebie. Are you scared of something, Zephirdd?
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On June 02 2012 06:07 slOosh wrote:
WBG please answer my first question:
Why are you pigeonholing the lynch choices into these three (referring to Kurumi, Sbrubbles and Navillus) and picking the most scummiest out of them rather than gauging each player individually as scummy or not? There is nothing to indicate that there is or isn't a scum in that group of three.
because on day 1 you want to lynch the scummiest person. Actually, on every day you want to lynch the guy most likely to flip scum.
I'm not pigeonholing the lynch but rather giving the choices I'd be fine with. Risk nuke is not included because I haven't read his posts. I'll do that now.
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1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy
2. Rad posts:
On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ...
4. Nothing?
What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro?
Is there a reason for that?
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On June 02 2012 06:08 Kurumi wrote:sloOsh looks good for me, it's weird that he asks more than posts more himself, but oh well. Zephirdd is... weird. Doesn't do things himself, changes his opinions, posts a lot of fluff like "go vote" "here's case by Kurumi (without his comment of course) and this is something that makes me uneasy Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers. I don't hate lynching lurkers... Never(I just think that there are a lot better options that's why I try to fight against doing it in normal-sized games). As Town, I see them as a valid scum candidates and as scum I see a freebie. Are you scared of something, Zephirdd?
I hate people not playing. Lynching Lurkers is lynching people for not playing.
Kurumi, what happened with your "I still think Radfield is scum"? Did you, *ahem* CHANGE YOUR OPINION? If so, then you have no reason to vote me. If not, then why are you NOT pushing him? Saw an easy candidate and jumped on him?
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Why are you an easy candidate Zephirdd?
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On June 02 2012 06:36 prplhz wrote:
Why are you an easy candidate Zephirdd?
Because people are voting me already and I have the most votes, I thought that was kinda obvious.
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No that wasn't obvious or I would not have asked you. You have one vote, so do Navilus and Sbrubbles. Are they easy targets too? Why didn't he pick them? What makes you an easier target than them?
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Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol
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Also to anyone bitching about Radfield not doing stuff, he is legitimately out of time.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340480#12
On May 29 2012 06:26 Radfield wrote:
/out
going with the mini game instead. Much more conducive to my schedule
This post was(obviously) made before roles are out. He is legitimately out of time. That's part of the reason why I changed my mind on Radfield as well, I didn't post this before because I posted from my phone and quoting out-of-thread stuff is a pain
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Oh and btw, because I don't want to be lynched nor modkilled, and specially because, as I pointed out, HiroPiro voted GF without actually pushing for that role nor even hinting it(although he discussed a lot of poison stuff on day0), I'll vote him.
##Vote HiroPiro
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HiroPro voted godfather after risk.nuke pointed out that scum would vote just that. I think that scum voted 2-1 in favor of framer (but I think that the framer people might think 2-1 in favor of roleblocker), and I certainly don't think that scum would try to "ninja" their vote like this. I'm in favor of keeping HiroPro around to today.
@Zephirdd Why are you now afraid to get mod killed? (no, it's not obvious at least not to me)
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@prplhz because it's possible I will be away during the deadline and I don't want to be without a vote. I weighted what I know so far and I thought HiroPiro would be the vote I want to have at the deadline.
Also, don't use the "that's not something mafia would do" reasoning. I've learned that from my last few games.
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On June 02 2012 06:35 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:08 Kurumi wrote:sloOsh looks good for me, it's weird that he asks more than posts more himself, but oh well. Zephirdd is... weird. Doesn't do things himself, changes his opinions, posts a lot of fluff like "go vote" "here's case by Kurumi (without his comment of course) and this is something that makes me uneasy On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers. I don't hate lynching lurkers... Never(I just think that there are a lot better options that's why I try to fight against doing it in normal-sized games). As Town, I see them as a valid scum candidates and as scum I see a freebie. Are you scared of something, Zephirdd? I hate people not playing. Lynching Lurkers is lynching people for not playing. Kurumi, what happened with your "I still think Radfield is scum"? Did you, *ahem* CHANGE YOUR OPINION? If so, then you have no reason to vote me. If not, then why are you NOT pushing him? Saw an easy candidate and jumped on him?
As I said, I laid my pitchfork down, not put my mind away for a while. I still find Radfield suspicious. Yes, I would lynch him if I would, but there's no chance for it now. Besides, I was quite focused on him (call it tunneling, whatever) till pretty much now and I looked at other people. You don't look good. Active lurking, really aggressive after getting called out...
You were buddying to me earlier man, what happened? You should lynch yourself man!
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Is that the sole reason why you think Hiro is a good lynch candidate - the GF vote? You do realize 5/12 players did not encrypt their votes, making voting analysis really weak? It's possible that mafia chose to send some to encrypt and others to bs after they received the vote tallies - or maybe they all encrypted or maybe none did.
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do?
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EWODP:
I would lynch him if could
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that?
On June 01 2012 19:26 Radfield wrote:
I'm not completely against a hiropro lynch right now, though I need to reread his filter. He spent almost all of day 0 discussing the poisons, and a proportionally small amount talking about the roles. His reasoning for picking gf does seem legit, but that doesn't clear him in my eyes.
The problem right now is there was a lot for scum to discuss on Day 0, and a lot for them to potentially contribute to town, without actually helping town all that much.
Fact is Toad, I'm not really sure on HiroPro. I had him down as looking ok and contributing, albeit tentatively. Then he was shown to be the only gf candidate, but has managed to do it with pretty good reasoning. I was considering pushing him just to see if the lynch was derailed or pushed through, and adjust accordingly, but didn't really have the time to do it properly.
I also really want to lynch him just to see his flip, and that's kind of a bad state of mind. I still need to read his filter thoroughly though.
On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum. What do you expect me to do as town? Just let people think I'm scum or something? I changed my mind too fast; there is all I can say about it. You just played(or rather, watched) a game where I was scum(or rather, had a scum mindset). Let me show you the biggest difference between me and my play on PYP I am being sincere. Sorry, but I wouldn't even consider changing my mind as scum, no matter what. I'd stick to what I said at first and try to create the most chaos I could. Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
This post actually strikes me as quite genuine and townish. I'm not sure I like a Zephirdd lynch anymore.
After re-reading Sbrubbles' filter, he doesn't really look scummy.
On June 02 2012 05:57 prplhz wrote:
I hope Radfield has some more time soon. Everybody else needs to start talking about the lynch too. risk.nuke is European so I think it's very weird that he hasn't said much about the lynch yet with us approaching deadline like this. It's almost 11PM in Europe.
I will have time, particularly saturday and sunday. It won't help us much for our lynch today, but I'm not really much of a Day 1 guy anyways. People always look for me to lead on Day 1, but I never really have much but a handful of town reads.... unless I'm scum, when I consistently lead Day 1 lynches 
I will be around for the lynch and deadline, and right now am probably willing to vote Hiropro, but I want to filter him 1 more time. I need to make some dinner right now though.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:52 slOosh wrote:
Is that the sole reason why you think Hiro is a good lynch candidate - the GF vote? You do realize 5/12 players did not encrypt their votes, making voting analysis really weak? It's possible that mafia chose to send some to encrypt and others to bs after they received the vote tallies - or maybe they all encrypted or maybe none did.
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do?
Which 5 sloosh?
At the very least, me and Toad were obviously voting roleblocker, and had we claimed anything but it would be very strange.
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On June 02 2012 06:50 Zephirdd wrote:
@prplhz because it's possible I will be away during the deadline and I don't want to be without a vote. I weighted what I know so far and I thought HiroPiro would be the vote I want to have at the deadline.
Also, don't use the "that's not something mafia would do" reasoning. I've learned that from my last few games.
I'm not going to use it forever, but right now it looks like something mafia wont do so I don't want to lynch him today. If he continues to do weird stuff that could be interpreted as scummy, then I'm going to put more focus on him. You are saying that someone put an argument out there that scum would do this and that, and then when somebody does exactly this, you say that he's scum? That seems too weird that scum would put themselves in a position like this unless there was a huge gain, what huge gain do you think this is? I'm now going to postulate that HiroPro isn't scum and that scum voted 2-1. Why do you think that's not likely? The vote was going to be split anyway and there were tons of people who didn't even encrypt so we can't verify what they did, HiroPro not only encrypted his vote and voted very early, he decided to vote for something that people had already said would be scummy. Even though scum would have something to gain by doing it, they would also have a lot to lose and they would know this.
What do you think about Sbrubbles and Navilus?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol
Come on now Toad... you know better than that. You CANNOT draw connections between players like that when their alignments are unknown.
That's actually a bit concerning.
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First of all, one thing we've got to remember is that we can only afford 1 NL, and it's better that we use it up later and not sooner. If worse comes to worse, with no NL and no doc saves, we may reach a day 5 mylo, which should be NL followed by lylo day 6 (with the plus side that we can pick and waste whatever poison we want day 5, since it will be NL).
Lynching Nautillus would be going for a lurker lynch and I don't think we have to resort to that yet. Also, between lurkers, I'd rather lynch risk.nuke, whose only contribution was to throw dirt and dissapear without any explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird.
Hiro simply hasn't posted anything since back then. His behaviour was reasonably active on D0, so I don't buy that it wasn't clear to him "that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker". His case on Zephirdd was that Zephirdd hadn't contributed to the discussion, though Zephirdd was asking questions, like Sloosh was doing, which is a reasonable way to get discussion going early on. Hiro's filter before that case, though, consisted of just as little discussion, except for mechanics talk, which mafia can also do. He is playing scummy and we should lynch him today.
##Vote: HiroPro
@Sloosh: The point is not that he voted GF, but that he voted GF while saying that he preferred framer over roleblocker (and changed his vote from roleblocker not to framer, but to GF).
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@HiroPro You absolutely need to get in here right now and start talking.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 06:58 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:50 Zephirdd wrote:
@prplhz because it's possible I will be away during the deadline and I don't want to be without a vote. I weighted what I know so far and I thought HiroPiro would be the vote I want to have at the deadline.
Also, don't use the "that's not something mafia would do" reasoning. I've learned that from my last few games. I'm not going to use it forever, but right now it looks like something mafia wont do so I don't want to lynch him today. If he continues to do weird stuff that could be interpreted as scummy, then I'm going to put more focus on him. You are saying that someone put an argument out there that scum would do this and that, and then when somebody does exactly this, you say that he's scum? That seems too weird that scum would put themselves in a position like this unless there was a huge gain, what huge gain do you think this is? I'm now going to postulate that HiroPro isn't scum and that scum voted 2-1. Why do you think that's not likely? The vote was going to be split anyway and there were tons of people who didn't even encrypt so we can't verify what they did, HiroPro not only encrypted his vote and voted very early, he decided to vote for something that people had already said would be scummy. Even though scum would have something to gain by doing it, they would also have a lot to lose and they would know this. What do you think about Sbrubbles and Navilus?
That's actually a pretty decent point.
After filtering him, Sbrubbles looks alright for the moment. Navilus I haven't looked at.
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"e:" denotes that the vote was encrypted before the deadline (I've also checked each one - they are all valid).
So the 5 are Kurumi, talismania, Toadesstern, wherebugsgo, Radfield.
As I've said before, because its 5 people (more than 3, the number of scum) there is really no telling alignments from this. You could glean slight tells for people's response to the plan itself but I think the Hiro's GF vote garnering enough suspicion for a vote makes no sense and people pushing / supporting that is wickity wack.
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On June 02 2012 07:01 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:58 prplhz wrote:On June 02 2012 06:50 Zephirdd wrote:
@prplhz because it's possible I will be away during the deadline and I don't want to be without a vote. I weighted what I know so far and I thought HiroPiro would be the vote I want to have at the deadline.
Also, don't use the "that's not something mafia would do" reasoning. I've learned that from my last few games. I'm not going to use it forever, but right now it looks like something mafia wont do so I don't want to lynch him today. If he continues to do weird stuff that could be interpreted as scummy, then I'm going to put more focus on him. You are saying that someone put an argument out there that scum would do this and that, and then when somebody does exactly this, you say that he's scum? That seems too weird that scum would put themselves in a position like this unless there was a huge gain, what huge gain do you think this is? I'm now going to postulate that HiroPro isn't scum and that scum voted 2-1. Why do you think that's not likely? The vote was going to be split anyway and there were tons of people who didn't even encrypt so we can't verify what they did, HiroPro not only encrypted his vote and voted very early, he decided to vote for something that people had already said would be scummy. Even though scum would have something to gain by doing it, they would also have a lot to lose and they would know this. What do you think about Sbrubbles and Navilus? That's actually a pretty decent point. After filtering him, Sbrubbles looks alright for the moment. Navilus I haven't looked at.
What about risk.nuke? He is playing like he is not.
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First I'll say for the sake of people knowing I'm not new, I've been playing on another site, I've played a few games here before, and if you go checking the other site (mafiascum) I have played as scum. With that out of the way...
WBG I think you're getting games confused, you wanted to lynch me in the OTHER game, not this one silly. More seriously one thing that I didn't realize before that game because I was used to games with a couple weeks to each day was that I have a fairly short period of possible activity in my days, I get home at 4-5pm edt and go to sleep at probably 12-1am so just in terms of the course of a day i won't be posting for more than 2/3s of it.
Also can we get a votecount
for now ##Vote: Zephirdd He has no posts that really push anyone, he's defensive, asks questions, points out what he apparently thinks is a scummy post then forgets about it and the poster (nuke's post). He basically doesn't look like he's trying to find scum in any of his posts, just that he wants to keep talking and look active. Now I would like to know from someone else because I don't remember anything about who's a vet here or not, how much has he played/how experienced is he, I could see his type of posting from someone new and not wanting to push people but I also thought I saw him referring to some older game so he doesn't sound new. (if he's like the most experienced person here and that was a really dumb question my bad)
I also am not a huge fan of the hiro lynch because I personally am bad at getting setup specific reads, but I also think it could be a legitimate slip, he wouldn't be my first choice (obviously that's zeph) but I also don't have a town read or something on him.
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On June 01 2012 22:15 Zephirdd wrote:
Holy shit noone will ever get my name right, will ya?
anyways, let me explain my thought proccess. Day0 people apparently forgot to vote or were forgetting the obvious; its very common for a player to forget stuff and then be reminded when seeing it on the thread. Heck, there were games I would only realize I hadnt voted when someone called me out. What is the problem with trying to remind the same?
second, I changed opinions far too quickly. Basically, I was convinced by Radfield's arguments on the RB. Then Kurumi convinced me about Rad being scum. Then after the day, and wbg pointing out Kurumi's meta, I had to rethink things and decided Rad was right; if I could, I'd switch back to RB pick. I have to look at L though.
but hey, yknow what is bad? Risk's post is bad. Points fingers at three people without saying anything.
ps. Posting from phone is a pain @_@
This is a really bad response. Zephir basically just says "yea i did those things, don't lynch me though" and tries to throw suspicion on risk.nuke who is a really easy target because he's not posting at all.
And later on he says something about how people shouldn't vote for him because he's an easy target because he has a lot of votes....
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we have basically 4 hours left, right?
I think Zephirdd is the only lynch with enough momentum to make it to deadline, unless we can get a switch to someone like navillus or risk.
Risk does look very bad as I've just read his posts. I'd be fine with lynching him if no one is interested in lynching Navillus (and he looks worse than Navillus anyway)
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On June 02 2012 07:02 slOosh wrote:"e:" denotes that the vote was encrypted before the deadline (I've also checked each one - they are all valid). So the 5 are Kurumi, talismania, Toadesstern, wherebugsgo, Radfield. As I've said before, because its 5 people (more than 3, the number of scum) there is really no telling alignments from this. You could glean slight tells for people's response to the plan itself but I think the Hiro's GF vote garnering enough suspicion for a vote makes no sense and people pushing / supporting that is wickity wack.
This reminds me I didn't post my key yet (I was on iphone when day started): + Show Spoiler +DKRUS-UXBZF-RFIEM-QRXCU-BBZWY-UHHNC-EQDLH-WEBAR-FYYCQ-HOKQD-SCOLL-HUKAP
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I've been away. I apologise for those of you who care about apologies. My time have disappeared before me and I haven't put down almost anything into this game YET.
Vote: Zephirdd
And hey, wbg thinks I'm scum so you should consider me confirmed townie.
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On June 02 2012 07:24 risk.nuke wrote:
I've been away. I apologise for those of you who care about apologies. My time have disappeared before me and I haven't put down almost anything into this game YET.
Vote: Zephirdd
And hey, wbg thinks I'm scum so you should consider me confirmed townie.
does that mean you think wbg is scum?
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On June 02 2012 06:59 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol Come on now Toad... you know better than that. You CANNOT draw connections between players like that when their alignments are unknown. That's actually a bit concerning.
Of course I can draw connections like that. And once they flip I check and see if they were right or wrong and change them accordingly.
That's how I end up with those
Either VE or Rad is 100% mafia
Either Ace or Marv is probably mafia
things like in C9++ #2 :p
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On June 02 2012 07:00 Sbrubbles wrote:
His case on Zephirdd was that Zephirdd hadn't contributed to the discussion, though Zephirdd was asking questions, like Sloosh was doing, which is a reasonable way to get discussion going early on.
Lol, someone didn't read my case or Zephirdd's filter. Zephirdd isn't posting any questions to spur discussion. The only questions he asks are to me. And in those questions, he never follows up and he only posts his opinion on my response after multiple other people have already said what they feel and he only does it when he is under pressure.
You completely ignored the part of my case about his wishy-washy non-existent accusation on Radfield. You make no comments at all about what Talismania says.
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On June 02 2012 07:24 risk.nuke wrote:
I've been away. I apologise for those of you who care about apologies. My time have disappeared before me and I haven't put down almost anything into this game YET.
Vote: Zephirdd
And hey, wbg thinks I'm scum so you should consider me confirmed townie.
I don't care about apologies. But I would like it if you explained your vote more clearly and I do want to hear some reads that you personally have, and not like the post you made earlier where you just say I want to kill this three people.
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Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa
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On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa
Doesn't he have like 4-5 votes? Unless I'm really reading the rules wrong, majority right now is 6 (Number of players divided by two rounded up) with a supermajority of 7 required to avoid any complications from the secret vote if zephirdd also hits 5.
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On June 02 2012 07:50 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa Doesn't he have like 4-5 votes? Unless I'm really reading the rules wrong, majority right now is 6 (Number of players divided by two rounded up) with a supermajority of 7 required to avoid any complications from the secret vote if zephirdd also hits 5.
As far as I can see he has 3 votes and the majority is 8, isn't it?
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Vote count:
Zephirdd: 5
Hiro
talis
Kurumi
risk.nuke
Navillus
Hiro: 3
Toad
Zephirdd
Sbrubbles
Navillus: 1
wherebugsgo
prphlz, Rad and Sloosh still to vote
If a Hiro lynch isn't possible, I'd settle for lynching risk.nuke. He had been lurking until a few minutes ago and now parked his vote, without explanation, on a rolling bandwagon.
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I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening.
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On June 02 2012 07:56 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 07:50 talismania wrote:On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa Doesn't he have like 4-5 votes? Unless I'm really reading the rules wrong, majority right now is 6 (Number of players divided by two rounded up) with a supermajority of 7 required to avoid any complications from the secret vote if zephirdd also hits 5. As far as I can see he has 3 votes and the majority is 8, isn't it?
brainfart. Majority should be either 6 or 7 right? According to the op it's #/2 rounded up but that's what greymists OP in his game says at well and in reality it's rounded down+1 lol.
Is the Majority really (# of players / 2 ) rounded up? That would be 6 and usually it's ((# of players / 2) rounded down +1)
Not that it makes a difference right now.
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1. It's really late for you to be pushing someone totally new and 2. you haven't made any sort of case on him, what about toad is scummy?
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Ok we need to get people in here. It's 1 am for me and I don't know how long I'll be awake.
A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me. That's really not as convincing as people make it look and we have 3 hours left...
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm here toad, and I agree that zephirdd looks like a terrible lynch.
Particularly because he basically blueclaimed. Lets let mafia take care of him, there is absolutely no need for us to lynch someone who is bluehinting:
On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:
Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
Lets just leave him alone. If he is still alive tomorrow with no claim, and still looks scummy, THEN we deal with him.
##Vote: Hiropro
I still need to filter him though
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How does that statement make you think he is blue at all?
I still need to filter him though
LOL
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
It's a bit sad isn't it hiropro. I just really want to see your flip and have the whole 1-1-1 thing resolved.
However, I'm mid-way through your filter and it's extremely unlikely I am going to keep my vote on you.
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Yea I really don't understand why people are voting HiroPro. His posts other than the GF one don't read scum to me, nor does the actual GF post, and it looks like people are bsing the whole thing because no one has found it pertinent to flesh out that discussion of why it is exclusively a scummy thing to do.
Risk is straight up sheeping Radfield or something because he is busy and not reading for himself. That is our lurker lynch option.
Sbrubbles still sticks out to me. Organizing thoughts into the next post.
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On June 02 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:I'm here toad, and I agree that zephirdd looks like a terrible lynch. Particularly because he basically blueclaimed. Lets let mafia take care of him, there is absolutely no need for us to lynch someone who is bluehinting: Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:
Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm. Lets just leave him alone. If he is still alive tomorrow with no claim, and still looks scummy, THEN we deal with him. ##Vote: HiroproI still need to filter him though
ugh this is actually a good point. He made that post before he even had two votes and that line is rather strongly worded. Zephirdd you back yet?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Upon reading his filter, I don't think Hiropro is scum. Apart from him picking GF, I see very little in his filter to justify lynching him.
Also, given they way discussion was going yesterday, I would not be surprised if mafia put 2 votes on RB and 1 vote on Framer, expecting it to be a runaway roleblocker win. I certainly expected everyone to pick roleblocker.
I don't want to lynch Zeph, and I'm willing to give risk more time. However I'm completely willing to lynch Navillus. In fact, I would not be surprised to see him flip scum.
Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=153628
Navillus is basically coasting Day 0 and doing the bare minimum to qualify as 'contributing'. His posts regarding poison and role selection are short and contain little original content, containing mainly obvious statements and corrections.
Since Day 1 began he has basically only questioned hiro slightly regarding his pick, and then posted this whopper:
On June 02 2012 07:09 Navillus wrote:
First I'll say for the sake of people knowing I'm not new, I've been playing on another site, I've played a few games here before, and if you go checking the other site (mafiascum) I have played as scum. With that out of the way...
WBG I think you're getting games confused, you wanted to lynch me in the OTHER game, not this one silly. More seriously one thing that I didn't realize before that game because I was used to games with a couple weeks to each day was that I have a fairly short period of possible activity in my days, I get home at 4-5pm edt and go to sleep at probably 12-1am so just in terms of the course of a day i won't be posting for more than 2/3s of it.
Also can we get a votecount
for now ##Vote: Zephirdd He has no posts that really push anyone, he's defensive, asks questions, points out what he apparently thinks is a scummy post then forgets about it and the poster (nuke's post). He basically doesn't look like he's trying to find scum in any of his posts, just that he wants to keep talking and look active. Now I would like to know from someone else because I don't remember anything about who's a vet here or not, how much has he played/how experienced is he, I could see his type of posting from someone new and not wanting to push people but I also thought I saw him referring to some older game so he doesn't sound new. (if he's like the most experienced person here and that was a really dumb question my bad)
I also am not a huge fan of the hiro lynch because I personally am bad at getting setup specific reads, but I also think it could be a legitimate slip, he wouldn't be my first choice (obviously that's zeph) but I also don't have a town read or something on him.
Big post, little content. It almost feels like this is navillus' token post for the day. He's fulfilled his obligation by making a big post, explained his vote, and can now disappear.
And by disappear, I mean he's actually still here and posting, just not contributing in the slightest.
In addition, his reasoning for not wanting to vote Hiro is bizarre at best, and quite scummy at worst.
This post is a big pile of nothing. Even his paragraph devoted to voting Zephirdd is actually only 2 sentences of reasoning, and a couple sentences discussing vets.
Navillus is NOT a lurker, and is attempting to 'contribute'. Yet his contributions are basically non existant, and really only amount to trying to fit in.
##Vote Navillus
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Ok people I'm willing to lynch in general right now: Hiro, Prplhz, Navillus
Hiro for the GF because I see no reason for a townie to vote GF when it was obvious it's either RB or framer. Yeah he said it wasn't obvious to him but it apperently was obvious to 11 other people..
Prplhz for his weird Navillus defense either way. The only thing that makes prplhz look good is him being so bold about the failure to vote.
Navillus is more of a plan B. He looks really bad but I have never played with him before and I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro or prplhz. Prplhz is not going to happen, hiro has a couple of votes but people apparently disagree with the GF thing and think there is a reason to vote GF for town...
So it probably comes down to hiro or Navillus
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Could you please explain a little more why you don't think Zephirdd is a good lynch, Radfield? Because I just don't see how he hinted at being blue and many of the same points that you bring up about Navillus are applicable to Zephirdd also.
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screw you rad. Stop posting what I am about to post all the time
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Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus
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Toad since you are here can you flesh out the GF explanation?
On June 02 2012 06:52 slOosh wrote:
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do?
This is also my beef with Sbrubbles. If it was so obvious that it would be a vote split between RB and framer, then mafia would understand that there is no need to vote 1-1-1 because the whole point you vote 1-1-1 is to slip by lie detection, not to confuse town what role mafia has. Hiro voted GF. You are claiming that he is one of mafia who still chose to vote 1-1-1 knowing that RB and framer are the only plausible roles that they will get.
So why are you calling Hiro scum by saying that the situation would make a good scum play and therefore he must be scum?
I want to vote Sbrubbles for the same reason, as well as how much resistance its been facing. Seriously like 2 or 3 times people just avert discussion away from that dude.
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Radfield could you explain why you found Sbrubbles' filter ok looking?
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I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum.
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On June 02 2012 09:02 slOosh wrote:Toad since you are here can you flesh out the GF explanation? Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:52 slOosh wrote:
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do? This is also my beef with Sbrubbles. If it was so obvious that it would be a vote split between RB and framer, then mafia would understand that there is no need to vote 1-1-1 because the whole point you vote 1-1-1 is to slip by lie detection, not to confuse town what role mafia has. Hiro voted GF. You are claiming that he is one of mafia who still chose to vote 1-1-1 knowing that RB and framer are the only plausible roles that they will get. So why are you calling Hiro scum by saying that the situation would make a good scum play and therefore he must be scum?I want to vote Sbrubbles for the same reason, as well as how much resistance its been facing. Seriously like 2 or 3 times people just avert discussion away from that dude.
mostly because of what happened in PYP. It's still an ongoing game so I don't think I can talk about this in detail can I?
I already flipped in that game and the 2 people I'm thinking about flipped as well. Really don't know if I'm allowed to talk about it.
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On June 02 2012 09:04 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +
I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum.
you are hiroprotagonist, aren't you? I think it's the 4th game we're playing together.
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On June 02 2012 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:04 HiroPro wrote:
I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum. you are hiroprotagonist, aren't you? I think it's the 4th game we're playing together.
I am not hiroprotagonist and I have never played a game with you in my life. I have played in newbie VI, newbie newbie VIII, and I am in Magic right now.
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On June 02 2012 09:02 slOosh wrote:Toad since you are here can you flesh out the GF explanation? Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 06:52 slOosh wrote:
Why is Hiro voting GF an exclusively scummy thing to do and not something that a townie would do? This is also my beef with Sbrubbles. If it was so obvious that it would be a vote split between RB and framer, then mafia would understand that there is no need to vote 1-1-1 because the whole point you vote 1-1-1 is to slip by lie detection, not to confuse town what role mafia has. Hiro voted GF. You are claiming that he is one of mafia who still chose to vote 1-1-1 knowing that RB and framer are the only plausible roles that they will get. So why are you calling Hiro scum by saying that the situation would make a good scum play and therefore he must be scum?I want to vote Sbrubbles for the same reason, as well as how much resistance its been facing. Seriously like 2 or 3 times people just avert discussion away from that dude.
My problem isn't with him voting GF per se. It's this:
1) Votes for RB:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 01:54 HiroPro wrote:I see what Toad and Radfield are saying about roleblocker. While I don't really feel that medic/vig against roleblocker is really much of an advantage for us, I can see the chaos that gf/framer can cause (There's no way we're getting innocent child). But I still think doing the encryption is a good idea. It can't hurt.
Show nested quote +
I'm pretty sure HiroPro is right in that we only have to use five poisons (12 10 8 6 4 assuming there's only one scum left by the end and no vig shots or medic blocks or no lynches). So let's not get carried away thinking we have to use majority +1 AND secret mafia vote when we can just use majority +1 and never bother with the secret mafia vote.
I'd prefer to be on the safe side and allocate six poisons. I don't want us to get in trouble just because we get a medic save. "Secret mafia vote" just isn't that dangerous; we can use that and "majority+1" day1/day2 (when those poisons are the weakest).
http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.htmlEncrypted Text: ZZZZZ IKQND HLAHA GFAXM GRHFX WHJBP HVVJW QKGDM FLUER ECNNB DMNAN
WUNJC IHLRU XHVXV AEKGV IHMJV XJAXL SCIPV EPLGD QQDLM PHKLT DXUIA
WUGKM VQIAP WMXFD DQCOJ BUMZZ YYYYY
2) Changes vote to GF, despite prefering Framer to Roleblocker:
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 08:15 HiroPro wrote:
And a new encrypted role:
[spoiler]
ZZZZZ GJNLL IRXGM PUBSF MPAHF NLNXV TBBGF JGJHL SJSPW RWJUT SNNDC
RCRGK ELJIK LROXB JVKHT FMJFW LIPWW IRBVP CQAJJ SUJCO PGQXN WRCCC
WVCEW AVUWJ WBMKE XCVHH EIIZZ YYYYY
[/spoiler]
+ Show Spoiler +[B]On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).
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On June 02 2012 09:10 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:On June 02 2012 09:04 HiroPro wrote:
I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum. you are hiroprotagonist, aren't you? I think it's the 4th game we're playing together. I am not hiroprotagonist and I have never played a game with you in my life. I have played in newbie VI, newbie newbie VIII, and I am in Magic right now.
LOL I assumed you're hiroProtagonist who shortened his nick to HiroPro.
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prplhz don't forget to vote in the voting thread here.
Sbrubbles your whole case is built on HiroPro's comprehension (or lack thereof) of the situation in D1, that the votes were split between roleblocker and framer. And yet other players have also expressed this
On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:
This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
On June 02 2012 08:51 Radfield wrote:
Also, given they way discussion was going yesterday, I would not be surprised if mafia put 2 votes on RB and 1 vote on Framer, expecting it to be a runaway roleblocker win. I certainly expected everyone to pick roleblocker.
And Hiro has explained that he felt GF was the weakest role.
On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles.
Yet you continue to hold onto this notion that Hiro must be scum. I call nonsense.
##Vote: Sbrubbles
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On June 02 2012 09:17 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:10 HiroPro wrote:On June 02 2012 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:On June 02 2012 09:04 HiroPro wrote:
I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum. you are hiroprotagonist, aren't you? I think it's the 4th game we're playing together. I am not hiroprotagonist and I have never played a game with you in my life. I have played in newbie VI, newbie newbie VIII, and I am in Magic right now. LOL I assumed you're hiroProtagonist who shortened his nick to HiroPro.
ok if you are in your 3rd / 4th game right now with only 2 newbie games finished so far I take back what I said.
If that's the case I can believe the "to me it wasn't obvious it's either RB or GF", that in addition to everyone saying you look townish. Leaves the question why you didn't tell us your thoughts about the GF before the voting was done but again, with you only having finished 2 newbie games so far I buy that as well for now.
##vote Navillus
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I think I saw hiropro and hiro protagonist play in the same game a while ago, which confused the hell out of me. Since then I've assumed they're different people lol.
I'm glad we're killing navillus and not hiropro though, I didn't really see the argument for him being scum. Sure, voting godfather is scummy but other than that it didn't seem like a case existed on him.
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and also yes, hiropro's justification for godfather being weak is a very townie response to the accusations that him voting for GF is scummy.
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A little less than 2 hours to go till the deadline, votecount coming asap
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Bah ... I'm not sure anymore. Bugs/Toad/prlhz, why Navillus over risk.nuke?
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Nah - let's get some thoughts on Sbrubbles. Both Navillus and risk.nuke have shown apathy and disinterest in the game and both are worth a lurker lynch. I want thoughts on Sbrubbles.
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Ok it doesn't look like zephirdd is going to get here before I have to go... Radfield if you're scum and orchestrated this last-minute thing to save zeph I'm going to be kicking myself hard postgame. Zeph I hope you actually are blue. vote navillus and hopefully we can get majority.
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On June 02 2012 09:34 slOosh wrote:
Nah - let's get some thoughts on Sbrubbles. Both Navillus and risk.nuke have shown apathy and disinterest in the game and both are worth a lurker lynch. I want thoughts on Sbrubbles.
I don't think a sbrubbles lynch is going to happen and I don't think it's helpful to cluster up the thread 2 hours short of the deadline when we need people to vote someone else...
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On June 02 2012 09:17 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:10 HiroPro wrote:On June 02 2012 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:On June 02 2012 09:04 HiroPro wrote:
I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro
Are you lying town or lying scum. you are hiroprotagonist, aren't you? I think it's the 4th game we're playing together. I am not hiroprotagonist and I have never played a game with you in my life. I have played in newbie VI, newbie newbie VIII, and I am in Magic right now. LOL I assumed you're hiroProtagonist who shortened his nick to HiroPro.
Ok, I can understand why you thought that way. It's kind of funny lol cause prplhz asked me the exact same question.
I will be afk for like 30 minutes, but when I come back I will go through filters for Navillus and Sbrubbles and tell you guys what I think/vote.
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Fine, I've switched over to the lurker Navillus vote, securing the lynch. Now can we discuss him as a potential D2 lynch candidate?
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On June 02 2012 09:37 talismania wrote:
unvote zephirdd
vote navillus
that's a wrong vote pattern. If kita is a dick that's not counting so please change that, thx.
It needs the #-thingies.
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CORRECTION. Navillus or any other person needs 7 votes to be lynched
edit; i need a statement for kita if i should change or not, also 1 hour till the deadline
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On June 02 2012 10:08 Bluelightz wrote:
CORRECTION. Navillus or any other person needs 7 votes to be lynched
Ignore the rambling fool! OP was wrong due to copying that noob greymist. We won't change the setup with such short notice. Six votes still required :p
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On June 02 2012 10:09 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:08 Bluelightz wrote:
CORRECTION. Navillus or any other person needs 7 votes to be lynched Ignore the rambling fool! OP was wrong due to copying that noob greymist. We won't change the setup with such short notice. Six votes still required :p
Prepare for more borderline Insane day/night posts.~
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On June 02 2012 09:37 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:34 slOosh wrote:
Nah - let's get some thoughts on Sbrubbles. Both Navillus and risk.nuke have shown apathy and disinterest in the game and both are worth a lurker lynch. I want thoughts on Sbrubbles. I don't think a sbrubbles lynch is going to happen and I don't think it's helpful to cluster up the thread 2 hours short of the deadline when we need people to vote someone else...
We got the votes. There clearly isn't any clustering going on in here. Could I please have your thoughts on Sbrubbles?
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It's 3 am and I'm going to bed. Get that vote correct talis or someone else vote nav or it's a NL if kita & blue are dicks and I'd rather not count on them being nice given that we had a poison that made the majority -1 :p
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got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
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I'm switching my vote to guarantee the Navillus lynch.
##Unvote: HiroPro
##Vote: Navillus
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Navillus: I think most of the points that Radfield talks about in his case on Navillus are correct. Navillus did not contribute much during the setup phase and he has barely said anything on day 1. In the post where he votes, Navillus's behavior is really strange. He votes for Zephirdd but yet at the same time expresses concern that Zephirdd's behavior may be indicative of a newer player. Not only is Navillus unwilling to go through Zephirdd's profile and check out his game history, but he is also voting for someone who he seems to be personally unsure of....
Sbrubbles: If his reasons for voting for me are what he really believes (which appears true for me), then he looks town to me. He contributed thoughts of his own during setup and seemed generally straightforward and open today. I am not willing to vote for him right now.
I would like you to answer this question, though Sbrubbles. I can understand why you did not vote for Zephirdd based on my case (You think I am scum), but why is it that you completely ignored the case that talismania brought? I pointed this out before along with my feelings on the flaws in your reasoning regarding Zephirdd, but you ignored it.
If what prplhz and Radfield say regarding Zephirdd's status as a blue is correct, then he is not a good lynch for today. I will expect more from him tomorrow, though. Radfield's case on Navillus is solid - I am voting for Navillus.
Vote: Navillus
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On June 02 2012 10:24 HiroPro wrote:
Navillus: I think most of the points that Radfield talks about in his case on Navillus are correct. Navillus did not contribute much during the setup phase and he has barely said anything on day 1. In the post where he votes, Navillus's behavior is really strange. He votes for Zephirdd but yet at the same time expresses concern that Zephirdd's behavior may be indicative of a newer player. Not only is Navillus unwilling to go through Zephirdd's profile and check out his game history, but he is also voting for someone who he seems to be personally unsure of....
Sbrubbles: If his reasons for voting for me are what he really believes (which appears true for me), then he looks town to me. He contributed thoughts of his own during setup and seemed generally straightforward and open today. I am not willing to vote for him right now.
I would like you to answer this question, though Sbrubbles. I can understand why you did not vote for Zephirdd based on my case (You think I am scum), but why is it that you completely ignored the case that talismania brought? I pointed this out before along with my feelings on the flaws in your reasoning regarding Zephirdd, but you ignored it.
If what prplhz and Radfield say regarding Zephirdd's status as a blue is correct, then he is not a good lynch for today. I will expect more from him tomorrow, though. Radfield's case on Navillus is solid - I am voting for Navillus.
Vote: Navillus
Of talis' case on Zephirdd, I just didn't see it. First and third parts are just Zephirdd attacking using meta-accusations (which 9 times out of 10 I ignore) and second part was pressuring you (who I also wanted to pressure). He was attacking everyone, but at least it looked like he was trying to get the ball rolling.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 13:01 talismania wrote:If both truly are red herrings, they're likely good things for scum to try and latch onto and drive momentum towards. With that in mind, consider zepphird: First he kind of fishes around on Radfield: Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss. Then he drives the HiroPro story a bit: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote:
Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Then, after no one else is jumping on Radfield, he jumps off and hints at looking at Kurumi (who made the Radfield case): Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers. There's almost too much of it to be true but on first blow, to me, it is indicative of scum trying to get a feel for the way winds are blowing in the town, hence the FoS.
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Okay I don't see this getting moved before I die, though I would say I still fully support a Zephridd lynch, and prplhz I wasn't apologetic because it was one afk stretch and I simply planned to be more active, I also clearly didn't want you to defend me more (and I think that's a definite misconstrual of what I was saying) as I specifically contradicted you in me being new or never playing scum despite it being on another site.
Anyway I guess I'll go into reads since I'll be confirmed soon enough.
I'm looking at toad right now who definitely looks suspicious, he votes me after literally one post that only calls me a plan B behind 2 other people and in general talks a lot without many reads or relevant posts.
I would worry about risk who has 100% lurked up until this point and the fact is I think there are many games where town screws itself over while a bunch of mafia just lurk the day away so either kill him or stop his lurking letting him live more than another day or 2 the way he's playing now would be shooting town in the foot.
Finally I would ABSOLUTELY lynch zephirdd who without doing anything big or protown or even being here managed to get a fairly big wagon to disappear off of him onto me. Actually he didn't get it to disappear others did but that would point strongly along with his very scummy activity beforehand to him being scum so I would make him the first lynch then I would look very hard at the people who pushed me early and got the wagon to move. PLEASE DON'T FORGET THIS. I imagine most people will by tomorrow's day post but I think it definitely could point to a number of people.
I would particularly look at rad and wbg simply because I think they're good enough that both could pull of looking very town even if they're not and they both helped move this lynch.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hmm, too many votes comin in too fast on Navillus. So it goes.
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Hmmm Radfield what do you mean by that? Do you no longer think I'm scum?
+ Show Spoiler [unrelated] +WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO JOHAN SANTANA IS A GOD!!! FIRST NO HITTER IN NEW YORK METS HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Not necessarily, but with that many votes coming that fast, it certainly lowers the likelihood of you being scum.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Night 1
Back to the Tower! Huzzah!
"IM INSANE AHUEHUEHUE"
"UHH, WHY U SAY THAT"
"CAUSE ME GONNA KEEL YOU!"
Or...... not.
Anyway, the explorers went on blabbering for liek 48 hours of real time but it was liek 1 minute there lol.
anyway today (we think) they will kill someone! huzzah! blood!
"Must kill him!"
"must play portal"
"wait portal what?"
Clearly Sane ravings of them, anyway the guy getting killed was feeling tickled! hahaha!
"Hey! stop it!"
XD
"Uhh, why can I see my heart there?"
"OH-"
The men of the world simply nearly died laughing simply because that their voice boxes were clearly getting tired and nitpicky, hospitals around the world electrified with the abundance of new clearly sane patients, still crashing the TV room.
Navillus the Vanilla Townie has been lynched.
It is now night one. The following poisons are availible for selection. You have 24 hours.
1) -Lynch locks once majority is reached.
2) -Voting is done using a secret ballot
4) -The lynch is replaced with a mayoral election who decides the days lynch
5) -The role and alignment for the lynch are hidden
6) -Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch
7) -The day cycle is shortened to 24 hours
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glhf guys, I guess no no-hitter for us
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
and another swing and a miss day 1 for me
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That's really strange how fast those votes piled on.
Good news is that it sheds a lot of light on the alignment of the sheepers. I'll be doing some rereading and will post my thoughts before deadline.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 02 2012 11:15 wherebugsgo wrote:
That's really strange how fast those votes piled on.
Good news is that it sheds a lot of light on the alignment of the sheepers. I'll be doing some rereading and will post my thoughts before deadline.
Why is it strange? Given that Navillus was town, it what you would expect to see. A bunch of townies looking for an acceptable lynch, with mafia piling into the mix to ensure a death.
How does it shed light on the sheepers any more than it sheds light on you and me(ie, the pushers). Not to mention that of the players who did not vote for Navillus(zephirdd, Kurumi, risk.nuke), 2 of those players are almost surely in bed, and one was not in thread(and possibly also in bed). Which means they don't even get cred for not being on the wagon.
I do agree there is information to be gleaned though.
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It's strange because there was initial opposition to it. That's what made me more confident at first. The bandwagon mostly started without me even doing anything, which is what is really weird to me.
I think the middle voters are probably (as usual) the most fruitful avenues for further prodding.
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You can't even go to bed in those games.
I find Toad staying up to 3am suspicious
You went for a candidate who was the least discussed during the day.
You went for THE WORST CANDIDATE.
This is absolutely terrible. You all followed one person, what are you, lemmings?
Why do I always need to cleanup myself.
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prplhz is scum by the way and he should be dead by the morning, he never had a solid candidate for a lynch D1 and changed his opinion every 2 hours or so. "But people can change their opinions blablablablalI" HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ZEPHIRDD. I am voting for lynch lock, mayor might be acceptable too, even majority.
FoS Toadesstern for staying suspiciously long, like waiting for something
My suspicion of Radfield is still alive, him making the swing and empty posts like "This post looks genuine and townish" are NOTHING. They are just adjectives thrown at people without any support. Maybe I will get rid of him because it is more likely he holds the role.
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Risk.nuke damn man please step up your game
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On June 02 2012 19:35 Kurumi wrote:
You can't even go to bed in those games.
I find Toad staying up to 3am suspicious
You went for a candidate who was the least discussed during the day.
You went for THE WORST CANDIDATE.
This is absolutely terrible. You all followed one person, what are you, lemmings?
Why do I always need to cleanup myself.
I had to stay up until 1am anyways for the deadline of the game I'm hosting and the deadline in greymists game. Not to mention I usually stay up until 3am reading Game of thrones anyways on weekends because I'm happy I don't have to wake up on 8am.
About the votes getting track so fast:
1) It was a pain in the ass to get people vote someone. I'd definitely not say it went fast lol
2) What about the secret vote mafia had? We had 8 people on the guy, we had a secret vote that was, from the looks of it not used or invisible. The point here is that mafia did not have to secure a lynch given we only needed 6 to lynch instead of 7 and them having a secret vote. That makes analysis a bit tricky because mafia could as well have just put the secret vote on that guy and not voted him.
That's all I've got to say for now. There's 2 people who are looking awful right now and I'm going to say something about them once I'm back.
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On June 02 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 19:35 Kurumi wrote:
You can't even go to bed in those games.
I find Toad staying up to 3am suspicious
You went for a candidate who was the least discussed during the day.
You went for THE WORST CANDIDATE.
This is absolutely terrible. You all followed one person, what are you, lemmings?
Why do I always need to cleanup myself. I had to stay up until 1am anyways for the deadline of the game I'm hosting and the deadline in greymists game. Not to mention I usually stay up until 3am reading Game of thrones anyways on weekends because I'm happy I don't have to wake up on 8am. About the votes getting track so fast: 1) It was a pain in the ass to get people vote someone. I'd definitely not say it went fast lol 2) What about the secret vote mafia had? We had 8 people on the guy, we had a secret vote that was, from the looks of it not used or invisible. The point here is that mafia did not have to secure a lynch given we only needed 6 to lynch instead of 7 and them having a secret vote. That makes analysis a bit tricky because mafia could as well have just put the secret vote on that guy and not voted him. That's all I've got to say for now. There's 2 people who are looking awful right now and I'm going to say something about them once I'm back.
Okay. I understand.
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Zephirdd did not even defend himself and even soft defended Radfield for no reason. Why talk about Radfield being less active while you are not Radfield yourself?
What the heck happened guys...
Navillus pretty much did not have time to defend himself and he was also right. Zephirdd is playing a defensive game for no reason. Zephirdd is scared which I pointed out earlier.
Zephirdd-Radfield-prplhz
which one should die today and tomorrow guys?
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I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante, but if there is and he shoots me on Kurumi's "case" then he needs to get his brain examined. I don't know why Kurumi is acting like it's 100% sure that there is a vigilante but it could just be a crazy Kurumi plan.
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On June 02 2012 22:29 prplhz wrote:
I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante, but if there is and he shoots me on Kurumi's "case" then he needs to get his brain examined. I don't know why Kurumi is acting like it's 100% sure that there is a vigilante but it could just be a crazy Kurumi plan.
It's not crazy when I've got a gun
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On June 02 2012 22:54 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 22:29 prplhz wrote:
I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante, but if there is and he shoots me on Kurumi's "case" then he needs to get his brain examined. I don't know why Kurumi is acting like it's 100% sure that there is a vigilante but it could just be a crazy Kurumi plan. It's not crazy when I've got a gun
Ah, so you don't have a gun then.
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On June 02 2012 23:30 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 22:54 Kurumi wrote:On June 02 2012 22:29 prplhz wrote:
I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante, but if there is and he shoots me on Kurumi's "case" then he needs to get his brain examined. I don't know why Kurumi is acting like it's 100% sure that there is a vigilante but it could just be a crazy Kurumi plan. It's not crazy when I've got a gun Ah, so you don't have a gun then.
Ciryandor hoped that was true one time...
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Also I find it interesting that you don't ask
"Why do you want to shoot me?"
Waiiiiiit... do you want to say you're mafia and you did not pick vigilante and you feel cocky because you're going to be alive?
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Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p
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On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p
what the heck?
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On June 03 2012 00:52 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p what the heck?
It's 5-5 according to our votes. Mafia either has a framer or a RB and I don't want to give them hints either way and neither should you. We need to talk about the poisons though.
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On June 02 2012 11:08 Radfield wrote:
and another swing and a miss day 1 for me
A last minute-switch that went wrong, well this is new.
Remember we don't know zeps alignment so we need to tread carefully when analysing the switch.
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Hey guys, my head cooled off. Did yours?
I'm amazed that I wasn't lynched. Thankfully Rad noted what I did there.
Kurumi, I defended him because people were throwing shit at him and I didn't want him to become a lynch target anymore. You, on the other hand, just keep throwing shit at him without actually backing it up. You made a case(which is pretty much nullified by now) on day0 and now all you do is to throw shit at everyone. What happened?
I'm now taking a look at the list of Navillus voters, particularly the middle ones.
Talismania:
On June 02 2012 09:36 talismania wrote:
Ok it doesn't look like zephirdd is going to get here before I have to go... Radfield if you're scum and orchestrated this last-minute thing to save zeph I'm going to be kicking myself hard postgame. Zeph I hope you actually are blue. vote navillus and hopefully we can get majority.
sloosh:
On June 02 2012 09:41 slOosh wrote:
Fine, I've switched over to the lurker Navillus vote, securing the lynch. Now can we discuss him as a potential D2 lynch candidate?
Toadesstern:
On June 02 2012 08:56 Toadesstern wrote:
[...]
Navillus is more of a plan B. He looks really bad but I have never played with him before and I really like lynching people I can judge because I played with them a lot., which is the reason I'd rather lynch into hiro or prplhz. Prplhz is not going to happen, hiro has a couple of votes but people apparently disagree with the GF thing and think there is a reason to vote GF for town...
So it probably comes down to hiro or Navillus
prplhz:
+ Show Spoiler [bigquote] +On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus
Sbrbubbles:
On June 02 2012 10:24 Sbrubbles wrote:
I'm switching my vote to guarantee the Navillus lynch.
##Unvote: HiroPro
##Vote: Navillus
Out of these, the one vote that stands out to me is Toadestern's. With 9 Town players, one being me and other being Navillus(according to my own point of view, ofc), there MUST be at least ONE mafia on the voters of Navillus.
+ Show Spoiler +Navillus -8
wherebugsgo
Radfield
prplhz
Toadesstern
talismania
slOosh
Sbrubbles
HiroPro
...
...
Alright I've been reading filters for the past 30min. I don't find anything really suspicious on the filters of toadesstern, prplhz, talismania, sloosh nor sbrubbles. I know reading hiropro's filter is meaningless at this point since I do know the only bad thing on him is the GF vote and nothing else. If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways. wbg is possibly mafia? He did lead the Navillus lynch, but it wasn't under bad reasoning either.
*brainfarts* good luck finding something guys @_@
On the poison thing, I agree with lynch lock. I will NOT agree with mayoral election as the two prime candidates for mayor(Radfield and Kurumi) look more like nemesis to each other. This means we don't have a trust-able townie for the mayor.
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Jeez, "throw shit"? What the heck? Call it stupid accusations, fosing for no reason but please don't call it throwing shit, man.
I've decided. Prplhz won't wake up.
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toad
On June 02 2012 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok we need to get people in here. It's 1 am for me and I don't know how long I'll be awake.
A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me. That's really not as convincing as people make it look and we have 3 hours left...
Do you think risk is scum? You later backed off hiro when you found out he wasn't the hiro you thought he was, and navilus of course flipped town. What do you make of zephirdd's claim?
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prp
I want to prod your mind on the bolded bits below:
On May 30 2012 20:01 prplhz wrote:
Since the mafia role selection is done in PMs and we're not going to have the voting results or the role itself revealed, scum is free to do whatever. There are only two ways to know for sure what role mafia got and that is 1) to get majority+3 voting for a single role and 2) flip the scum who got the role. talismania's encrypted vote idea should be implemented because it's never going to hurt and it will create some content that we can use for analysis.
Regarding the roles: Godfather is the safest because scum can only use it in two ways (have Godfather carry out night kills or not), this will make for the least confusion among potential town blues. Framer is the worst to give them because it will allow scum (and also townies and blues) to question all checks made by cop/tracker. Role blocker is also potentially useful for scum, especially in connection with claims (and counterclaims and fake claims) which I think could become very important this game.
Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked?
I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it. So I think we should all agree that Godfather is the safest thing we can do because it allows for the least manipulation by scum and the simplest logic always applying for town. The only down side is that potential cop can't always trust town checks but that's very much acceptable. I don't think scum will focus much on the role that they get when they consider the roles that they give us.
Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles?
As for the poison, my thoughts have already been stated. We should try to eliminate poisons that get stronger as early as possible. Majority+1 and secret vote are the best candidates for this. Here are my thoughts (list is malleable):
Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot
Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock
Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch
Some people already said that we will be at even number players all game long baring medic saves, but vigilantes could also screw this up. Also, the no flip is not only alignment, it is also role which may suck since we cannot know if we killed the Godfather or just a goon.
@Kurumi Could you give us the reason behind your thoughts?
I'm particularly interested to hear your thoughts on this part,
I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it.
and why you thought that was true.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Just a heads up, the night post may be delayed for a short time. Not sure if I'll be home in time. Remember to send all night actions to myself and bluelightz. Four hours remain to vote for the day two poison.
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While you're around do you mind answering some questions I asked earlier?
On June 01 2012 04:55 talismania wrote:
Did mafia get voting results in real time or after the deadline?
I'm assuming it was after the deadline but if it was real time then I guess my encryption thing was pretty pointless.
On June 02 2012 02:15 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 00:19 Toadesstern wrote:gosh On the hiro matter, because prphlz vote does matter:Hiro looks a lot better on the first look imo but here's the thing. Hiro answered us "Would I really claim I voted GF when I am mafia as the only one?" and that gave me a thought. Now this prphlz business is somewhat important here. On the first look it seems like hiro looks way better because prphlz frankly got in here telling us "sup guyses, haven't voted" which is equal to the 1-1-1 thing I mentioned earlier. So hiro looks better because prphlz looks equally bad and yet the same question comes up: Would Prphlz get in here like that as mafia? I doubt it but again, I already said after PYP I'm not going to use that logic anymore lol. But here's the important thing that made me reconsider the hiro part: He said something along the lines of "would I really claim GF as mafia?". Now here's the OP The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results. I HIGHLY doubt the voting result would be something like "sup guys, You've got RB" or "sup guys, you've got framer" because mafia could figure that out themselves just fine the moment one of them gets to be RB or framer so I'd say they get the real voting results. Let's assume prphlz is telling the truth for a second. If that's the case mafia knew there was one guy who has not voted because that's simple math. If that's the case it's perfectly reasonable to just claim GF because there's someone out there who's looking equally bad or even worse. Fancy conclusion: I'd say hiro knows exactly what he's doing and is hoping that the other guy looks worse or at least equally bad while still having the benefits of the 1-1-1 thing. Remember Hiro has not made it clear what he wanted to vote and while that may have benefits it makes the perfect excuse for this scenario we're in right now. I'd say we have found mafia in hiro. This hurts my head - first, Does mafia getting the voting results mean that they got the results of who everyone voted for? Just the totals? Just the winner?Second, if they did get full results, how could that have any bearing on hiro's play? He voted GF before the deadline no matter what, therefore he would have to explain it no matter what. How does he modify that knowing that prp didn't vote? I think there are less convoluted reasons to vote Hiro that people have already raised, if you're going to vote Hiro. (On a sidenote toad I think I owe you an apology because it looks like you were right about the difficulty in getting to a majority day one.) ___________________ @Radfield Of course I would also vote Zephirdd (and probably will unless we need a 6th/7th vote somewhere else - avoiding no lynch is the top priority) - it's not just that he's been vacillating, it's that it feels like he's been doing it to see if anyone he pushes will get momentum in the town. He's playing it pretty out in the open as well (owning up to it with his last "I change my mind too much" post) which is brazen but probably the correct play if he's scum. I'm curious about how you're thinking about the game as a whole - you've also been throwing some names out as though to see what sticks (sloosh, sbrubbles, zephirdd) but I haven't seen anything like the analysis you did to parse apart Blazinghand and tunkeg in I'm a cop you Idiot. For instance, is your consideration of voting zephirdd based on what hiro said, what I said, what you thought yourself, etc?
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Guys, I'm putting down my vote for poison (option 1), which is fine as long as no one acts stupid. I think if we hit scum tomorrow, we can use Mayoral Lynch D3. If we mislynch, we use Majority+1 D3 (it will be mylo) and leave out Mayoral Lynch completely. Thoughts?
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On June 03 2012 07:00 talismania wrote:
While you're around do you mind answering some questions I asked earlier?
The mafia team recieved the results at the end of the cycle with a list of each player's vote.
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@talismania Because if town doesn't know what role that scum has then it very much opens up the possibility of scum arguing for whatever role that benefits them (and townies would argue along with them). You got a check? Well watch 1 mafia and 2 townies say that scum probably got framer and framed whoever. I've said this several times already. Also, if we decided that it was more important that scum didn't know what role they got than that we elected some specific role then we would kill a lot of discussion on day0.
@Kurumi
Dearest Kurumi,
No I'm not afraid that I'll get shot tonight. I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante and I think it's very unlikely that he would listen to your "case". And I didn't ask why you wanted to shoot me 'cause you actually already wrote your "case" in this thread, I even responded to it! Don't know what's so interesting about me not asking for something you already gave me, but in case you have more then just go ahead and post it.
If there really is a vigilante he should shoot risk.nuke tonight 'cause that guy doesn't give a shit about this game. He's acted nonchalantly like this in other games, but I've never seen him not actually care about a game. In Death Factory Mafia 2 he kind of did something like this but he was blue and had a powerful role so he didn't need to get all analytic, in Space Station he was also a bit like this in thread but he was very much invested in the game in PMs. Even if he is town then you'd just be taking out the god damn trash.
I'm exceedingly tipsy and I can't think all too straight right now. If anybody thinks I should vote something for poison then tell me. Otherwise, I'm going to vote for majority+1 'cause I think I remember agreeing with myself on this yesterday.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Gah, been busy all day.
I agree with sbrubbles that lynch lock is the best option for tomorrow, as it is essentially our freebee. Mayoral election will be fine for day 3.
Alas, the rest of my night will be filled with playing sc2 with friends
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On June 03 2012 08:05 prplhz wrote:
@talismania Because if town doesn't know what role that scum has then it very much opens up the possibility of scum arguing for whatever role that benefits them (and townies would argue along with them). You got a check? Well watch 1 mafia and 2 townies say that scum probably got framer and framed whoever. I've said this several times already. Also, if we decided that it was more important that scum didn't know what role they got than that we elected some specific role then we would kill a lot of discussion on day0.
@Kurumi
Dearest Kurumi,
No I'm not afraid that I'll get shot tonight. I don't think it's all that likely that there is a vigilante and I think it's very unlikely that he would listen to your "case". And I didn't ask why you wanted to shoot me 'cause you actually already wrote your "case" in this thread, I even responded to it! Don't know what's so interesting about me not asking for something you already gave me, but in case you have more then just go ahead and post it.
If there really is a vigilante he should shoot risk.nuke tonight 'cause that guy doesn't give a shit about this game. He's acted nonchalantly like this in other games, but I've never seen him not actually care about a game. In Death Factory Mafia 2 he kind of did something like this but he was blue and had a powerful role so he didn't need to get all analytic, in Space Station he was also a bit like this in thread but he was very much invested in the game in PMs. Even if he is town then you'd just be taking out the god damn trash.
I'm exceedingly tipsy and I can't think all too straight right now. If anybody thinks I should vote something for poison then tell me. Otherwise, I'm going to vote for majority+1 'cause I think I remember agreeing with myself on this yesterday.
Here I am and I follow cases of the great Kurumi. You are dead.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Oh yeah, it's really important obviously that if someone gets roleblocked they should announce it immediately, as it gives our potential tracker more info. Not to mention letting us know the mafia setup.
Medics, cops and trackers can do their own thing. Innocent child obviously does nothing until it is pertinent. Vigilante should probably be shooting.
Prplhz, majority +1 is probably the hardest poison unless we have an obvious lynch. It should be the one that we don't use,or only use situationally. Right now we have very little focus and very little galvinization of potential lynch targets. Majority +1 is a bad choice.
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On June 03 2012 08:18 Radfield wrote:
Oh yeah, it's really important obviously that if someone gets roleblocked they should announce it immediately, as it gives our potential tracker more info. Not to mention letting us know the mafia setup.
Medics, cops and trackers can do their own thing. Innocent child obviously does nothing until it is pertinent. Vigilante should probably be shooting.
Prplhz, majority +1 is probably the hardest poison unless we have an obvious lynch. It should be the one that we don't use,or only use situationally. Right now we have very little focus and very little galvinization of potential lynch targets. Majority +1 is a bad choice.
I hear ya
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@Radfield If the vigilante is like "Should I shoot prplhz or should I shoot risk.nuke?" then what would you advice him to do?
I thought about how a 3-1 endgame situation could turn out if scum just keeps doing no night actions, he could force us into poisons he liked if we no-lynch in response. I'm just going to do waht you said though 'cause it doesn't look like it matters all too much what I vote and hopefully we'll not get into a bad endgame situation.
@Kurumi I'm ignoring you until you write something new. I decided last mini that I wouldn't let tunnelers get on my nerves again and I really don't think you have anything to contribute if the only thing you can say is "I'm vigilante and I'm shooting you". If you're doing some crazy plan counting on a potential roleblocker to roleblock you in case they picked vigilante and I'm scum then you're even more out of your mind than I feared.
@Zephirdd Why are Radfield and Kurumi the two mayor candidates?
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On June 03 2012 08:31 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield If the vigilante is like "Should I shoot prplhz or should I shoot risk.nuke?" then what would you advice him to do?
I thought about how a 3-1 endgame situation could turn out if scum just keeps doing no night actions, he could force us into poisons he liked if we no-lynch in response. I'm just going to do waht you said though 'cause it doesn't look like it matters all too much what I vote and hopefully we'll not get into a bad endgame situation.
@Kurumi I'm ignoring you until you write something new. I decided last mini that I wouldn't let tunnelers get on my nerves again and I really don't think you have anything to contribute if the only thing you can say is "I'm vigilante and I'm shooting you". If you're doing some crazy plan counting on a potential roleblocker to roleblock you in case they picked vigilante and I'm scum then you're even more out of your mind than I feared.
@Zephirdd Why are Radfield and Kurumi the two mayor candidates?
Why do you speak like you don't care about being shot but you try to swing my opinion the heck
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Don't have readily available internet access on weekend so can't read & comment fully - voting lynch lock as it doesn't seem like we have any consensus at all on suspects.
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On June 03 2012 08:05 prplhz wrote:
@talismania Because if town doesn't know what role that scum has then it very much opens up the possibility of scum arguing for whatever role that benefits them (and townies would argue along with them). You got a check? Well watch 1 mafia and 2 townies say that scum probably got framer and framed whoever. I've said this several times already. Also, if we decided that it was more important that scum didn't know what role they got than that we elected some specific role then we would kill a lot of discussion on day0.
[...]
Hmm ok. The reason I asked was because I feel like you were actually articulating the optimal scum strategy. I was thinking about the hiropro push yesterday and how that was based entirely on the notion that scum would want to vote 1-1-1 to be as safe as possible from any analysis of the way votes were cast. Then I realized that the actual best scum strategy would be to do what you posted - get everyone in town to vote for one role, then blend in among the votes. Furthermore, in that case they would know exactly what roles to give town (you were arguing for godfather at the time - which means you were arguing essentially for town to receive a useless tracker). And there was still plenty of discussion d0.
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I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways."
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On June 03 2012 08:53 HiroPro wrote:
I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways."
Don't shoot why? That's it. I had some doubts but prplhz is dead for sure.
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On June 03 2012 08:32 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:31 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield If the vigilante is like "Should I shoot prplhz or should I shoot risk.nuke?" then what would you advice him to do?
I thought about how a 3-1 endgame situation could turn out if scum just keeps doing no night actions, he could force us into poisons he liked if we no-lynch in response. I'm just going to do waht you said though 'cause it doesn't look like it matters all too much what I vote and hopefully we'll not get into a bad endgame situation.
@Kurumi I'm ignoring you until you write something new. I decided last mini that I wouldn't let tunnelers get on my nerves again and I really don't think you have anything to contribute if the only thing you can say is "I'm vigilante and I'm shooting you". If you're doing some crazy plan counting on a potential roleblocker to roleblock you in case they picked vigilante and I'm scum then you're even more out of your mind than I feared.
@Zephirdd Why are Radfield and Kurumi the two mayor candidates? Why do you speak like you don't care about being shot but you try to swing my opinion the heck
How do I speak like I don't care about being shot? I just, in that very post, asked Radfield about his opinion on this whole vigilante thing. How is that not caring? How is arguing with you and you inexistant case all night1 not caring? Even though I shouldn't care because you have no case and no vigilante with a brain and eyes to read would shoot me, I argue with you.
Are you seriously asking me why I don't want you to tunnel a townie and yell for a vigilante to shoot him?
I'm done with you for now. Take a step back and then take a deep breath. I'm not responding to you unless you have something new or substantial to say.
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On June 03 2012 08:58 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:32 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 08:31 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield If the vigilante is like "Should I shoot prplhz or should I shoot risk.nuke?" then what would you advice him to do?
I thought about how a 3-1 endgame situation could turn out if scum just keeps doing no night actions, he could force us into poisons he liked if we no-lynch in response. I'm just going to do waht you said though 'cause it doesn't look like it matters all too much what I vote and hopefully we'll not get into a bad endgame situation.
@Kurumi I'm ignoring you until you write something new. I decided last mini that I wouldn't let tunnelers get on my nerves again and I really don't think you have anything to contribute if the only thing you can say is "I'm vigilante and I'm shooting you". If you're doing some crazy plan counting on a potential roleblocker to roleblock you in case they picked vigilante and I'm scum then you're even more out of your mind than I feared.
@Zephirdd Why are Radfield and Kurumi the two mayor candidates? Why do you speak like you don't care about being shot but you try to swing my opinion the heck How do I speak like I don't care about being shot? I just, in that very post, asked Radfield about his opinion on this whole vigilante thing. How is that not caring? How is arguing with you and you inexistant case all night1 not caring? Even though I shouldn't care because you have no case and no vigilante with a brain and eyes to read would shoot me, I argue with you. Are you seriously asking me why I don't want you to tunnel a townie and yell for a vigilante to shoot him? I'm done with you for now. Take a step back and then take a deep breath. I'm not responding to you unless you have something new or substantial to say.
I will enjoy every millisecond of the bullet travelling through your body
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On June 03 2012 08:56 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:53 HiroPro wrote:
I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways." Don't shoot why? That's it. I had some doubts but prplhz is dead for sure.
Because I have a town read on him. Switching from multiple candidates is not scummy behavior if actual legitimate reasons are provided. And the reasoning prplhz provides is adequate.
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On June 03 2012 08:52 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:05 prplhz wrote:
@talismania Because if town doesn't know what role that scum has then it very much opens up the possibility of scum arguing for whatever role that benefits them (and townies would argue along with them). You got a check? Well watch 1 mafia and 2 townies say that scum probably got framer and framed whoever. I've said this several times already. Also, if we decided that it was more important that scum didn't know what role they got than that we elected some specific role then we would kill a lot of discussion on day0.
[...]
Hmm ok. The reason I asked was because I feel like you were actually articulating the optimal scum strategy. I was thinking about the hiropro push yesterday and how that was based entirely on the notion that scum would want to vote 1-1-1 to be as safe as possible from any analysis of the way votes were cast. Then I realized that the actual best scum strategy would be to do what you posted - get everyone in town to vote for one role, then blend in among the votes. Furthermore, in that case they would know exactly what roles to give town (you were arguing for godfather at the time - which means you were arguing essentially for town to receive a useless tracker). And there was still plenty of discussion d0.
Yea I thought about how the tracker power would be useless, at least until the godfather was dead.
But the tracker role would be useful all the time because he could claim and even though he didn't have any power it's unlikely that scum would fake claim tracker 'cause depending on how the game would turn out they could get outed. This is of course true for all roles, but all roles include the tracker.
I still think that godfather was a pretty decent pick but I agree with Radfield that roleblocker was actually better. I think framer was a bad pick.
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On June 03 2012 09:03 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 08:56 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 08:53 HiroPro wrote:
I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways." Don't shoot why? That's it. I had some doubts but prplhz is dead for sure. Because I have a town read on him. Switching from multiple candidates is not scummy behavior if actual legitimate reasons are provided. And the reasoning prplhz provides is adequate.
There are no legitimate reasons.
Zephirdd is fine, huh?
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On June 03 2012 09:06 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 09:03 HiroPro wrote:On June 03 2012 08:56 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 08:53 HiroPro wrote:
I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways." Don't shoot why? That's it. I had some doubts but prplhz is dead for sure. Because I have a town read on him. Switching from multiple candidates is not scummy behavior if actual legitimate reasons are provided. And the reasoning prplhz provides is adequate. There are no legitimate reasons. Zephirdd is fine, huh?
My personal feeling is that he is scum. But he has claimed blue "I'm amazed that I wasn't lynched. Thankfully Rad noted what I did there." and people seem to believe him. I don't think he is a good shot target for tonight. If he continues to play the way that he has so far, then he is scum in my opinion and I will push for his lynch.
But I think today it is best not to take a shot.
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On June 03 2012 09:13 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 09:06 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 09:03 HiroPro wrote:On June 03 2012 08:56 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 08:53 HiroPro wrote:
I am voting for lynch lock. Day 3 must absolutely be mayoral election though, I won't accept anything else.
Kurumi, if you really are the vig, please don't shoot prplhz.
Zephirdd, it would be nice if you actually did say something about the people you looked. You went through a lot of filters. Surely you have something to say even if you don't necessarily have a strong mafia read on someone. What specifically made you suspicious of WBG? I would say that both he and Radfield led the lynch on Navillus equally, but for WBG you say that you are suspicious of him for leading the Navillus lynch, while the only thing you say about Radfield is "If Radfield is mafia I am doomed anyways." Don't shoot why? That's it. I had some doubts but prplhz is dead for sure. Because I have a town read on him. Switching from multiple candidates is not scummy behavior if actual legitimate reasons are provided. And the reasoning prplhz provides is adequate. There are no legitimate reasons. Zephirdd is fine, huh? My personal feeling is that he is scum. But he has claimed blue "I'm amazed that I wasn't lynched. Thankfully Rad noted what I did there." and people seem to believe him. I don't think he is a good shot target for tonight. If he continues to play the way that he has so far, then he is scum in my opinion and I will push for his lynch. But I think today it is best not to take a shot.
It's not a blue claim/slip whatever lol
So I kill prplhz and we lynch Zephirdd tomorrow, easy
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Honestly, I don't know what to tell you. You disregard everything I say so it doesn't even matter.
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On June 03 2012 09:19 HiroPro wrote:
Honestly, I don't know what to tell you. You disregard everything I say so it doesn't even matter.
I just believe my vigilante skills
cyriandor v2 is coming up
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okay guys good night, we are going to have a pleasant surprise by day
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No point in voting anything else.
##vote: 1
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 03 2012 08:31 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield If the vigilante is like "Should I shoot prplhz or should I shoot risk.nuke?" then what would you advice him to do?
I'm pretty ok with a shot on you prplhz, but I haven't actually done the legwork to confidently direct a shot. As far as risk.nuke, he will either step up his game or not, but so far he has simply done nothing, which is null by definition.
I also feel like I have a pretty good feel for risk.nuke's play, and can adequately determine his alignment as the game goes on.
There is something I would like to post just prior to the deadline.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Oh yeah, Hiropro is very likely town. Lets have no more talk of his gf vote being reason to lynch him.
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Around 30 minutes till the deadline, If you haven't voted for the poison, please vote.
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this time I will ninja YOU Rad :p
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 03 2012 10:28 Toadesstern wrote:
this time I will ninja YOU Rad :p
I'll believe it when I see it
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Almost forgot, SEND IN ACTIONS PEOPLE, I ONLY HAVE [REDACTED] OF THEM RIGHT NOW.
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20 minutes till deadline, dont have actions from you know who you are.(SEND THEM TO ME!)
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
feel free to pm those suckers bluelightz
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8 minutes and no actions. great.
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Got the actions  deadline in 3 mins
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Lets talk about Zephirdd.
First, he has 100% blueclaimed at this point, we simply don't know his role:
This:
On June 02 2012 02:49 Zephirdd wrote:
Get off me; pushing me is the worst move you can do atm.
plus this and this:
On June 02 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:
Particularly because he basically blueclaimed. Lets let mafia take care of him, there is absolutely no need for us to lynch someone who is bluehinting:
On June 03 2012 01:20 Zephirdd wrote:
I'm amazed that I wasn't lynched. Thankfully Rad noted what I did there.
Is a 100% blueclaim. This means that come morning Zephirdd needs to be dead, roleblocked or have a (hopefully verifiable) claim for us. Pretty much anything else means he is scum.
Honestly, his play this game has been quite scummy, and apart from him blueclaiming he would have and should have been lynched. If he manages to live through the night, and in particular if he lives, and someone else is roleblocked, he should be lynched.
I am posting this at the last minute, because I don't want mafia to switch their actions around to somehow frame zephirdd by leaving him untouched. They know what roles we have, and hence know if we have any roles which can be self-confirmable.
The one possibility is that if we have a medic, and mafia have no roleblocker, they might leave zephirdd alive. Apparently bluelightz isn't getting any actions either.... so he might live because of that too...
I don't have any exceptionally strong reads yet, but I think Hiropro and talismania are both town. Sbrubbles looks good too. Bugs does not look particularly good.
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We lynch Prplhz today
Here's why:
On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
[...]
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?
I consider that mafia agenda. "It is very important for town that we know what role we give to eliminate confusion"? Yeah we eliminate mafia confusion by telling them what they'll get so they can counter pick,
On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
[...]
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
[...]
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo. On June 02 2012 03:04 prplhz wrote:
I'm okay with lynching Sbrubbles.
[...]
On June 02 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening.
That's a lot of people he's willing to lynch without saying a thing about them except for wbg. The "case" on wbg was "WBG hasn't posted, therefore he has to be mafia because he doesn't care about the game" while at least half the players in this game had very few posts at that time. The rest is a bunch of mentions without actually saying why and I already said what I think about stuff like that:
Looks like people testing watertemperature with their toes to check out what can get momentum without doing something themselves.
Furthermore Navilus apparently was on his radar for not posting a lot, just like risk yet later on he says Nav not posting is a sign for townieness? Will come to that next but that's really odd.
On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo I don't think that Navilus is scum. First, the guy has never played scum before. Second, his only contributions on day1 so far has been a post saying what he voted, and him calling you out. It doesn't look like he's just trying to avoid mod kill and it very much doesn't look like he's scum trying to hide with only 2 paltry posts during the whole day. I don't think first time scum will not do anything during the day than pick on a town wherebugsgo (but then again, are you town?) Moreover, in the last game I played with him he was also unavailable for a part of the game. You say that he didn't comment on the lynch, one thing that all scum knows to do at all times is have some sort of opinion on the lynch. I'd very much like to keep him around for now.
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie?
Navilus defense #1
The reasoning here basicly is: "He never played mafia before. I think he would know better than to hide like that with only 2 posts."
I'd consider that a contradiction. Everyone knows people who play mafia for the first time and what's the most frequent mistake those people make? They're not posting because they're scared and trying to hide to hard. At least that's how I have seen most people play their first time game as mafia. This defense makes no sense from a townie point of view no matter who nav was talking about in his two posts.
On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum.
Navilus defense #2
Again. He says that first time scums mosty try not to stick out, as in they usually want to hide, yet he says "he absolutely knows how to do this better than this". How in the world do you know he can do better than this if he never played mafia before? How do you know he's not scared to post like most mafias are in their first game?
Again, this defense makes so sense from a town point of view.
On June 02 2012 05:44 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
[...]
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
[...]
Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
[...]
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means I'm really just asking if you can clarify what you said.
Remember his posts from earlier? Sure wbg is not backing up a thing but he's giving his basic thoughts. Now look back a bit and check out the posts prplhz did when he wanted to hear oppinions / accused people. He said nothing, he simply mentioned the names except for the WBG "case".
That's as hypocritical as it can get.
On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus
Probably the weakest explanation for a vote I've ever seen. "sup guys. THAT GUY IS TOWN SHUT UP.... Oh, I guess he hasn't said he's sorry for being afk so long. Probably means he's mafia"
Fancy conclusion:
- Prplhz defending Nav was REALLY odd and I can't imagine someone making arguments like that from a town perspective. Yeah I know I used to use arguments like that as well. L comes to mind where I said something along the lines of "Palmar looks way to scummy to be scum, something's wrong here" but that's because the guy is called Palmar and not Nav. We're talking about some guy who never played mafia before and Prplhz defends him on the basis of "the guy would play better as mafia because he hasn't ever played mafia before"...
- Prplhz is testing grounds before saying something all the time. He keeps asking people "what do you think about X, Y or Z?" and never says something himself and something like 30 hours later he picks one guy he feels comfortable to push and votes him with 3 lines of explanation.
- The voteswitch is horrible. The reasoning, as already mentioning is the weakest I've ever seen and I'd say he did that because that way he can say "sup guys, I voted him to secure a lynch but didn't want to. Btw TOLD YA HE'S TOWN" for towncred.
Lynch Prplhz please, thanks.
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Day 2
"ZZZZZzzzzzZZZZzzzzZzZzZzZzZzZ"
"Sweepy Time?!?!!?"
"SWEEPY?!?!?!?!"
"LOL WTF! u still drunk bro?"
"asfjkasdgdfjsagkdha"
After dat sleepin!
"Urgh!"
"Aaaaah!"
"He-"
Someone died, GREAT! Men of the world nearly died laughing still crashing bars, pubs, and being bored while waiting for their pay :D
wherebugsgo the Vanilla Townie has been killed.
It is now Day 2, you have 48 hours till the next deadline, Option 1(Lynch locks once majority is reached) has been selected for day.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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going to bed now. See you tomorrow.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Technically my post came before yours toad, so I guess that means I ninja'd you(even though we were talking about different things... )
Zephirdd, why aren't you dead? Can anyone give me a reason Zephirdd shouldn't claim?
I don't particularly disagree with the prplhz assessment. I'm a bit thrown by his whole disqualified vote thing though. As that seems like a strange thing to come up with considering mafia didn't actually vote in the first place.
We need anyone who was roleblocked to claim ASAP. In fact perhaps we should wait to see if there are any roleblocks before Zeph claims.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Oh yes, and 1 shot cop should claim obviously.
It's possible that this is a decent time for any innocent child to claim, but I'm not sure. There is an optimum time for the IC to claim though, and it's not necessarily only when they are on the ropes. Consider that an IC dying from a nightkill before they have claimed is a completely useless role. The strength comes from us having a confirmed townie for a while, and forcing mafia to shoot in a particular direction(shielding other strong players and the other power role).
Tracker should claim if he tracked mafia to a kill or a frame, though ideally you simply push and build a case first, and only claim if necessary. Standard stuff really.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
risk, toad, zeph, kurumi.
I have some filters to look through tomorrow
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I've just finished going through filters again with a fresh mind. Not much new stuff was there obviously but there are some things I missed when I first read through everyone.
Toad: I noticed that one of the points in your case on prplhz is that he made a push against WBG with weak reasoning. I agree with this. However, at a very similar time you yourself say that you want to lynch WBG. Please explain why why/when your suspicions on WBG dropped and why you believe that this is scummy behavior by prplhz when you yourself express similar thoughts.
On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
Look at his day1 contributions. It's literally been two posts where he says he wants to lynch Kurumi because Kurumi isn't posting TF2 videos, nevermind that Kurumi did post pictures of Sadam Hussein and that Kurumi has played more seriously as town in his last few games.
Also, we need to remember that we can't have people are majority-1, if someone is at majority-2 then you have to agree with somebody else to hammer them. This is because scum has a secret vote and will just hammer any majority-1 if they are town.
I'm around, shoot me some questions if you want. I don't want to comment on everybody but I'll comment on some if people want me to.
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
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Bntw posting from phone while drunkl. Hooray saturdays.
I liedm. I was trying to grab shots in my face. Radfield, idk where you took that -m blue, but ita fun how you instantly bring that I'm not dead. My post at night was a roleblocker/shot magnet. I was not roleblocked so I assume there is a framer out there.
toad, you tk a lot abou prp defending naviludd, but how does defending a town makes him scum?
akso I want to see more risk posts. He is posting too little imo.
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On June 03 2012 13:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Bntw posting from phone while drunkl. Hooray saturdays.
I liedm. I was trying to grab shots in my face. Radfield, idk where you took that -m blue, but ita fun how you instantly bring that I'm not dead. My post at night was a roleblocker/shot magnet. I was not roleblocked so I assume there is a framer out there.
toad, you tk a lot abou prp defending naviludd, but how does defending a town makes him scum?
akso I want to see more risk posts. He is posting too little imo.
I switched my vote for this?
Zeph - what exactly did you mean, if anything, when you initially wrote that "pushing me is the worst move atm" thing?
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On June 03 2012 11:13 Radfield wrote:
Oh yes, and 1 shot cop should claim obviously.
It's possible that this is a decent time for any innocent child to claim, but I'm not sure. There is an optimum time for the IC to claim though, and it's not necessarily only when they are on the ropes. Consider that an IC dying from a nightkill before they have claimed is a completely useless role. The strength comes from us having a confirmed townie for a while, and forcing mafia to shoot in a particular direction(shielding other strong players and the other power role).
Tracker should claim if he tracked mafia to a kill or a frame, though ideally you simply push and build a case first, and only claim if necessary. Standard stuff really.
If we have an innocent child I disagree with him claiming now (unless he's up for lynch). The optimal time would be when we have the mayoral election (presumably D3) so that we can elect a guaranteed townie.
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On June 03 2012 13:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Bntw posting from phone while drunkl. Hooray saturdays.
I liedm. I was trying to grab shots in my face. Radfield, idk where you took that -m blue, but ita fun how you instantly bring that I'm not dead. My post at night was a roleblocker/shot magnet. I was not roleblocked so I assume there is a framer out there.
toad, you tk a lot abou prp defending naviludd, but how does defending a town makes him scum?
akso I want to see more risk posts. He is posting too little imo.
[image blocked]
And I agree with talismania on IC. But I really doubt we have one.
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On June 03 2012 14:09 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 13:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Bntw posting from phone while drunkl. Hooray saturdays.
I liedm. I was trying to grab shots in my face. Radfield, idk where you took that -m blue, but ita fun how you instantly bring that I'm not dead. My post at night was a roleblocker/shot magnet. I was not roleblocked so I assume there is a framer out there.
toad, you tk a lot abou prp defending naviludd, but how does defending a town makes him scum?
akso I want to see more risk posts. He is posting too little imo. I switched my vote for this? Zeph - what exactly did you mean, if anything, when you initially wrote that "pushing me is the worst move atm" thing?
That i am town and it is bad to lynch town LOL.
anyways its 3am wtf gotta go to sleep cya and also I love the meme pic :D
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I expected to get rbed and killed and here I am untouched. Arghnice.
Prplhz is an excellent lynch candidate so I am voting him. Wishy-washy as heck without backing it up, clearly did not care about D1 lynch. Him being pretty confident in not getting shot is a tell too. He was quite active during the night.
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On June 03 2012 10:59 Toadesstern wrote:We lynch Prplhz today Here's why: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
[...]
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"? I consider that mafia agenda. "It is very important for town that we know what role we give to eliminate confusion"? Yeah we eliminate mafia confusion by telling them what they'll get so they can counter pick, 1Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
[...]
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
[...]
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening. That's a lot of people he's willing to lynch without saying a thing about them except for wbg. The "case" on wbg was "WBG hasn't posted, therefore he has to be mafia because he doesn't care about the game" while at least half the players in this game had very few posts at that time. The rest is a bunch of mentions without actually saying why and I already said what I think about stuff like that: 2Looks like people testing watertemperature with their toes to check out what can get momentum without doing something themselves. 3Furthermore Navilus apparently was on his radar for not posting a lot, just like risk yet later on he says Nav not posting is a sign for townieness? Will come to that next but that's really odd. 4Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo I don't think that Navilus is scum. First, the guy has never played scum before. Second, his only contributions on day1 so far has been a post saying what he voted, and him calling you out. It doesn't look like he's just trying to avoid mod kill and it very much doesn't look like he's scum trying to hide with only 2 paltry posts during the whole day. I don't think first time scum will not do anything during the day than pick on a town wherebugsgo (but then again, are you town?) Moreover, in the last game I played with him he was also unavailable for a part of the game. You say that he didn't comment on the lynch, one thing that all scum knows to do at all times is have some sort of opinion on the lynch. I'd very much like to keep him around for now.
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? Navilus defense #1The reasoning here basicly is: "He never played mafia before. I think he would know better than to hide like that with only 2 posts." 5I'd consider that a contradiction. Everyone knows people who play mafia for the first time and what's the most frequent mistake those people make? They're not posting because they're scared and trying to hide to hard. At least that's how I have seen most people play their first time game as mafia. This defense makes no sense from a townie point of view no matter who nav was talking about in his two posts. 6Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum. Navilus defense #2Again. He says that first time scums mosty try not to stick out, as in they usually want to hide, yet he says "he absolutely knows how to do this better than this". How in the world do you know he can do better than this if he never played mafia before? How do you know he's not scared to post like most mafias are in their first game? Again, this defense makes so sense from a town point of view. 7Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:44 prplhz wrote:On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
[...]
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
[...]
On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
[...]
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? On June 02 2012 05:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means I'm really just asking if you can clarify what you said. Remember his posts from earlier? Sure wbg is not backing up a thing but he's giving his basic thoughts. Now look back a bit and check out the posts prplhz did when he wanted to hear oppinions / accused people. He said nothing, he simply mentioned the names except for the WBG "case". That's as hypocritical as it can get. 8Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus Probably the weakest explanation for a vote I've ever seen. "sup guys. THAT GUY IS TOWN SHUT UP.... Oh, I guess he hasn't said he's sorry for being afk so long. Probably means he's mafia" 9
Fancy conclusion: - Prplhz defending Nav was REALLY odd and I can't imagine someone making arguments like that from a town perspective. Yeah I know I used to use arguments like that as well. L comes to mind where I said something along the lines of "Palmar looks way to scummy to be scum, something's wrong here" but that's because the guy is called Palmar and not Nav. We're talking about some guy who never played mafia before and Prplhz defends him on the basis of "the guy would play better as mafia because he hasn't ever played mafia before"...
- Prplhz is testing grounds before saying something all the time. He keeps asking people "what do you think about X, Y or Z?" and never says something himself and something like 30 hours later he picks one guy he feels comfortable to push and votes him with 3 lines of explanation.
- The voteswitch is horrible. The reasoning, as already mentioning is the weakest I've ever seen and I'd say he did that because that way he can say "sup guys, I voted him to secure a lynch but didn't want to. Btw TOLD YA HE'S TOWN" for towncred.
Lynch Prplhz please, thanks.
1: I don't consider that mafia agenda. I think it's better that we know what role mafia has and mafia know what role they have and what roles we have, than that we don't know any roles, and mafia knows all roles. Again, right now we can't know if scum has roleblocker or framer and that's a bad situation for us.
2: I didn't have a huge reasonable for voting wherebugsgo I agree with that but if you look at how the state of the thread was at the time, nothing was happening, so I made a case that doubled as pressure vote and something to discuss. I had more reasonable on Sbrubbles than what you are posting so you are really just misrepresenting me here. Wanting to lynch you was because nobody was hooked on anything else and I have a hard time reading you while other people were thinking that you were scum so it was an okay lynch. I also NEVER SAID that wherebugsgo HAS TO BE SCUM. You are misrepresenting me.
3: How does it look like that? I want you to answer this question 'cause it looks to me like you're just taking the current buzzword and then applying it to a situation for no reason. If you read my posts you will see that I pushed wherebugsgo and Sbrubbles a lot harder than you make it look like, I'm not testing any waters. What does testing waters even mean?
4: Yea, different things goes for different people. I played with Navilus in Resistance 2, go read that game. He was afk for a long period of time and he was really sorry about it when he came back. I expected something similar this game but he wasn't sorry when he came back so I decided that he would be an okay lynch.
5: My reasoning was that a guy who has played some mafia, but hasn't been scum before, wouldn't try to hide by blatantly only make two measly posts.
6: Show me a game where a first time scum has played day1 with only two posts. Only people with well established meta would ever attempt to do that. You say it's happening all the time but I'm saying that it's actually never happening. Show me a single game, 'cause I have never seen it. Do you seriously think that only making 2 posts is a very clear scum tell? Then why didn't you push Navilus at all? This sounds like something you are just making up to use in this analysis.
7: How do you know that he is? He wasn't afraid to posts because I saw him post quite a lot on day1. How is making only 2 measly posts hiding? And are you seriously asking me "How can anybody have any conception about how it is to play scum when they have never played scum before?" because I consider that a very silly question.
8: I honestly don't even know what the accusations is here. What I do notice is that wherebugsgo gets some credit here for "not backing anything up, but still providing basic thoughts". You're accusing me of being scum for that very same reason in argument 2, and in argument 4 you're accusing me of being scum for having double standards! Hilarious.
9: Yea, maybe stuff is a little weak, but it was on day1. If you read his filter in Resistance 2 then you'll see him being quite sorry for being afk and I was expecting the same here, except if he didn't feel sorry at all because he was scum. Maybe it's weak, I don't particularly think so for a day1 argument. I didn't say "probably means he's mafia", this is blatant misrepresentation. If you read my posts I give my very clear read of him in that situation and that is, and I quote, because you apparently lack the ability to do so properly: "I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think." which translate to "null slightly leaning scum". I'm sure that you, in your fervor, can find something you consider scummy about that too, but can you please argue with what I said instead of this misrepresentation.
Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Oh yeah, testing the waters? I think you did that too according to your definition about it, you make short mentions about me in your filter too, and then after Kurumi decides to mindlessly tunnel me for an entire night you jump on it and make a big case. Isn't that testing the waters? What does that even mean?
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so you wanted to lynch wbg whether he was town or scum?
that's a touching story
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in case prplhz wall of text is too long here is
tl;dr
I wanted to lynch anyone because I don't care
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On June 03 2012 19:51 Kurumi wrote:
so you wanted to lynch wbg whether he was town or scum?
that's a touching story
So you just claimed scum?
Awesome.
Hey, why is that "You" not capitalized?
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Kurumi appealing to the people not reading the thread. Sounds legit.
Anyway, since this is tunnel city, I'm leaving this thread. I'll spend my time reading instead of responding to no-effort no-brain one liners from Kurumi. inb4 "he thinks he's getting lynched because he feels inherently guilty because he's scum".
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On June 03 2012 19:53 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 19:51 Kurumi wrote:
so you wanted to lynch wbg whether he was town or scum?
that's a touching story So you just claimed scum? Awesome. Hey, why is that "You" not capitalized?
i dislike wasting time on scum
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On June 03 2012 19:55 prplhz wrote:
Kurumi appealing to the people not reading the thread. Sounds legit.
Anyway, since this is tunnel city, I'm leaving this thread. I'll spend my time reading instead of responding to no-effort no-brain one liners from Kurumi. inb4 "he thinks he's getting lynched because he feels inherently guilty because he's scum".
say hello from me to your scum friends in the qt
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On June 03 2012 12:45 HiroPro wrote:I've just finished going through filters again with a fresh mind. Not much new stuff was there obviously but there are some things I missed when I first read through everyone. Toad: I noticed that one of the points in your case on prplhz is that he made a push against WBG with weak reasoning. I agree with this. However, at a very similar time you yourself say that you want to lynch WBG. Please explain why why/when your suspicions on WBG dropped and why you believe that this is scummy behavior by prplhz when you yourself express similar thoughts. Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
Look at his day1 contributions. It's literally been two posts where he says he wants to lynch Kurumi because Kurumi isn't posting TF2 videos, nevermind that Kurumi did post pictures of Sadam Hussein and that Kurumi has played more seriously as town in his last few games.
Also, we need to remember that we can't have people are majority-1, if someone is at majority-2 then you have to agree with somebody else to hammer them. This is because scum has a secret vote and will just hammer any majority-1 if they are town.
I'm around, shoot me some questions if you want. I don't want to comment on everybody but I'll comment on some if people want me to.
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo. Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
It was very early and what prplhz said was given for AT LEAST 4 other players as well however I agreed with it at that time because I found him not knowing about the 24h part weird, not because of the not posting part.
Same conclusion but for another reason and again, his case on WBG was really not existing at that point in time and he kept on saying lynching wbg is the way to go.
On June 03 2012 13:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Bntw posting from phone while drunkl. Hooray saturdays.
I liedm. I was trying to grab shots in my face. Radfield, idk where you took that -m blue, but ita fun how you instantly bring that I'm not dead. My post at night was a roleblocker/shot magnet. I was not roleblocked so I assume there is a framer out there.
toad, you tk a lot abou prp defending naviludd, but how does defending a town makes him scum?
akso I want to see more risk posts. He is posting too little imo.
Oh I don't know. How does defending a town make make him scum.... You're really asking me that question?
In case that's not irony: That's how mafia get towncred. They can't / don't want to bus mafias early on so they're busting out a couple of townreads to tell people "told ya!" when they get lynched and tell them, that they defended them.
Defending a townie however doesn't make him mafia. The fact that he defends nav WITHOUT a reason or a reasonable suggestion makes him mafia. He just gets in there says the guy is probably better as mafia if he's mafia because he never played mafia before. I have never seen a townie defend someone else like that, no matter if mafia or town before.
WBG told him what prplhz posted about nav is bullshit, Kurumi said it's bullshit and I said so as well. We all kept saying his "defense" was as weird as it can get, not knowing why at that point in time. Now we know why it's weird. He wanted to defend that townie because he KNEW he was a townie which looked odd for everyone else because they had not that kind of information.
Haven't read prplhz's post yet. Will do next :p
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On June 03 2012 11:13 Radfield wrote:
Oh yes, and 1 shot cop should claim obviously.
It's possible that this is a decent time for any innocent child to claim, but I'm not sure. There is an optimum time for the IC to claim though, and it's not necessarily only when they are on the ropes. Consider that an IC dying from a nightkill before they have claimed is a completely useless role. The strength comes from us having a confirmed townie for a while, and forcing mafia to shoot in a particular direction(shielding other strong players and the other power role).
Tracker should claim if he tracked mafia to a kill or a frame, though ideally you simply push and build a case first, and only claim if necessary. Standard stuff really.
pretty sure we have a tracker and a medic. Blue basicly confirmed that yesterday, not sure if we can talk about it.
That being said I mentioned tracker and medic for no specific reason and it probably means nothing, but I guess if someone wanted to check what blue posted before the deadline that could be interesting.
:p
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I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
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On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
So you think that wherebugsgo was correct with his reads and we should lynch into them?
What? He wasn't a dt, he was a vt and it was D1.
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On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
So you don't want to kill him because you think he's mafia; you want to kill him for information and because WBG died. I feel like lynching you right now.
You haven't said anything about his "I wasn't actually claiming blue, I just went along with it." Surely that's an important thing to talk about when you want to push a lynch?
Oh and Zephirdd, don't take this to mean that I think you're town now. I have you down as in the middle.
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On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
1. You're basically saying that town will stab itself on the foot by lynching me -_-
2. That makes no sense. Wbg is a known veteran and obvious target; Radfield and Kurumi, even though are veterans, have suspicion over eachother(or that's how I see it). Besides, we don't know your alignment; As far as we know, you killed wbg because you thought he'd find you.
Also, with noone claiming to be roleblocked so far, I think it's safe to assume the mafia got a Framer. This is specially true because I wasn't roleblocked even though I "basically" had blueclaimed. Kurumi not being roleblocked/killed isn't incredible, however: mafia knows if there is any Vigilante in game, and Kurumi claiming vigilante would only mean to them "lol fakeclaim" if there is no vigilante in the setup.
Not sure what to make about prplhz and toadestern. Zero time to make real long-term analysis, but Toad making such a huge fancy case against prplhz and not answering his rebuttal seems odd. Toad, do you still think prplhz is scum?
Also, prpl
Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now.
Why would you be worried about someone making a case on you?
To whom it may concern: What is your opinion on Toades/Kurumi X prplhz?
My opinion is that Toadesstern is making a bad case and trying to push for a mislynch. Kurumi gives very little reasoning to his posts, and tunnels himself on a player of choice(Radfield day0/1, prplhz night1/day1). prplhz has answered most of the questions with reasonable responses.
Go you~
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On June 04 2012 00:08 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). 1. You're basically saying that town will stab itself on the foot by lynching me -_- 2. That makes no sense. Wbg is a known veteran and obvious target; Radfield and Kurumi, even though are veterans, have suspicion over eachother(or that's how I see it). Besides, we don't know your alignment; As far as we know, you killed wbg because you thought he'd find you.Also, with noone claiming to be roleblocked so far, I think it's safe to assume the mafia got a Framer. This is specially true because I wasn't roleblocked even though I "basically" had blueclaimed. Kurumi not being roleblocked/killed isn't incredible, however: mafia knows if there is any Vigilante in game, and Kurumi claiming vigilante would only mean to them "lol fakeclaim" if there is no vigilante in the setup.
Not sure what to make about prplhz and toadestern. Zero time to make real long-term analysis, but Toad making such a huge fancy case against prplhz and not answering his rebuttal seems odd. Toad, do you still think prplhz is scum? Also, prpl Show nested quote +Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Why would you be worried about someone making a case on you? To whom it may concern: What is your opinion on Toades/Kurumi X prplhz? My opinion is that Toadesstern is making a bad case and trying to push for a mislynch. Kurumi gives very little reasoning to his posts, and tunnels himself on a player of choice(Radfield day0/1, prplhz night1/day1). prplhz has answered most of the questions with reasonable responses. Go you~
Explain the bolded for me because I just don't understand it
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On June 03 2012 23:55 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). So you think that wherebugsgo was correct with his reads and we should lynch into them? What? He wasn't a dt, he was a vt and it was D1.
He died brainiac, and it wasn't the flu. Sure he was a veteran and that makes him a target but why would they kill him if all his targets were town. If they have a town veteran beeing suspicious at other townies thats a goldmine for the mafia. Making the townies fight and push lynches amongst themselves. They don't kill their own goldmines regardless of how feared scumhunters they are. And wbg is known to be an exellent scumplayer not an amazing scumhunter.
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him.
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On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:55 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). So you think that wherebugsgo was correct with his reads and we should lynch into them? What? He wasn't a dt, he was a vt and it was D1. He died brainiac, and it wasn't the flu. Sure he was a veteran and that makes him a target but why would they kill him if all his targets were town. If they have a town veteran beeing suspicious at other townies thats a goldmine for the mafia. Making the townies fight and push lynches amongst themselves. They don't kill their own goldmines regardless of how feared scumhunters they are. And wbg is known to be an exellent scumplayer not an amazing scumhunter. @Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him.
So you think they killed wbg because he was wrong and that's why you want to kill Zephirdd and me?
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No I think they killed him because he was on to something which is the most logical explaination. Kurumi why do you think they killed wbg? I'm starting to feel that what you're saying is 'the scumteam isn't playing optimal and that's why they killed wbg'.
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On June 04 2012 00:36 risk.nuke wrote:
No I think they killed him because he was on to something which is the most logical explaination. Kurumi why do you think they killed wbg? I'm starting to feel that what you're saying is 'the scumteam isn't playing optimal and that's why they killed wbg'.
WBG kill is piss poor, done close to nothing this game, voted framer, wanted to lynch me for a weak meta reason, no blue indications from him, nothing.
I guess they feared him stepping up the game.
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On June 04 2012 00:28 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:08 Zephirdd wrote:On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). 1. You're basically saying that town will stab itself on the foot by lynching me -_- 2. That makes no sense. Wbg is a known veteran and obvious target; Radfield and Kurumi, even though are veterans, have suspicion over eachother(or that's how I see it). Besides, we don't know your alignment; As far as we know, you killed wbg because you thought he'd find you.Also, with noone claiming to be roleblocked so far, I think it's safe to assume the mafia got a Framer. This is specially true because I wasn't roleblocked even though I "basically" had blueclaimed. Kurumi not being roleblocked/killed isn't incredible, however: mafia knows if there is any Vigilante in game, and Kurumi claiming vigilante would only mean to them "lol fakeclaim" if there is no vigilante in the setup.
Not sure what to make about prplhz and toadestern. Zero time to make real long-term analysis, but Toad making such a huge fancy case against prplhz and not answering his rebuttal seems odd. Toad, do you still think prplhz is scum? Also, prpl Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Why would you be worried about someone making a case on you? To whom it may concern: What is your opinion on Toades/Kurumi X prplhz? My opinion is that Toadesstern is making a bad case and trying to push for a mislynch. Kurumi gives very little reasoning to his posts, and tunnels himself on a player of choice(Radfield day0/1, prplhz night1/day1). prplhz has answered most of the questions with reasonable responses. Go you~ Explain the bolded for me because I just don't understand it
Will do.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:55 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). So you think that wherebugsgo was correct with his reads and we should lynch into them? What? He wasn't a dt, he was a vt and it was D1. He died brainiac, and it wasn't the flu. Sure he was a veteran and that makes him a target but why would they kill him if all his targets were town. If they have a town veteran beeing suspicious at other townies thats a goldmine for the mafia. Making the townies fight and push lynches amongst themselves. They don't kill their own goldmines regardless of how feared scumhunters they are. And wbg is known to be an exellent scumplayer not an amazing scumhunter. @Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him.
So, you are saying that wbg, not being a good scumhunter according to you, found scum on his "list". A list that includes not only me, Navillus(town) and Kurumi, but you as well. Then he dies.
Then you decided to use that as an argument against me, when that same argument can be used against you. An argument that says "wbg has a suspicion on you so you killed him because of that".
You said it had to be because of me because "you" know you are town. Well, guess what: we don't know you are town and the argument can be sent back at you.
(not to mention all the lurking and lack of reasoning for your accusations)
Also you seem less confident than usual risk. What's wrong, afraid of something? Are you scum?
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He's afraid of my gun.
I am going to roast him Texan style.
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On June 04 2012 00:08 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). 1. You're basically saying that town will stab itself on the foot by lynching me -_- 2. That makes no sense. Wbg is a known veteran and obvious target; Radfield and Kurumi, even though are veterans, have suspicion over eachother(or that's how I see it). Besides, we don't know your alignment; As far as we know, you killed wbg because you thought he'd find you. Also, with noone claiming to be roleblocked so far, I think it's safe to assume the mafia got a Framer. This is specially true because I wasn't roleblocked even though I "basically" had blueclaimed. Kurumi not being roleblocked/killed isn't incredible, however: mafia knows if there is any Vigilante in game, and Kurumi claiming vigilante would only mean to them "lol fakeclaim" if there is no vigilante in the setup.
Not sure what to make about prplhz and toadestern. Zero time to make real long-term analysis, but Toad making such a huge fancy case against prplhz and not answering his rebuttal seems odd. Toad, do you still think prplhz is scum? Also, prpl Show nested quote +Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Why would you be worried about someone making a case on you? To whom it may concern: What is your opinion on Toades/Kurumi X prplhz? My opinion is that Toadesstern is making a bad case and trying to push for a mislynch. Kurumi gives very little reasoning to his posts, and tunnels himself on a player of choice(Radfield day0/1, prplhz night1/day1). prplhz has answered most of the questions with reasonable responses. Go you~
Two things.
1) Look at this post from another game:
On June 03 2012 23:02 Toadesstern wrote:
voted gambit because I have to leave in something like 15 minutes and don't know wether or not I'll be here before the deadline hits. I think so but I can't say for sure.
Sorry I answered the questions that are fast to answer and left the big post because I was in a hurry and I still am. Just arrived at my place and I'm gone in 10 minutes again to fetch me something from McDonalds because I'm starving and will be gone with friends until probably something like 24:00 my time.
I thought it's silly how I keep on telling everyone how I'm afk for half a day when I'm taking the train to my parents place or the other way around and therefore have not mentioned it. Sorry I will now start constantly updating about my personal life and tell you exactly why I haven't answered in time if it comes to a scenario like that again.
2) You either haven't understoof my case or haven't read it properly. Prplhz's answers are in fact pointless as nothing he says diminishes anything I said but just for the sake of it:
My case is not (as you have stated) about prplhz defending a townie. My case is about him defending someone who flipped town while everyone agreed that he looks bad and at the same time prplhz told people he's town without giving a proper reasoning to back this up.
Go back an read what prplhz posted about Nav. Do it and if you come back and can tell me that what prplhz said about Nav is a reason not only to consider someone town but also to disagree in a very cleary way I just won't say a thing anymore.
There is not a SINGLE legit reason why he says he thinks the guy is town. NOT A SINGLE ONE but yet he keeps saying the guy is town only to make the weirdest and weakest switch I have ever seen.
There is simply no way a townie would come up with something like that. If he had said something along the lines of "I'm not sure about the lynch yet" fine but he did not, he basicly said "the guy is too scummy for scum and as someone who never played mafia at all he definitely should know better than that". That is not a reason to call someone town unless you know the guy is town.
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that being said I'm off to McDonalds, I'm starving. If someone calls me out on how I haven't answered something I'm going to punch something because I only read really fast right now and answered why I considered to be the most important right now.
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On June 04 2012 00:52 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:28 Kurumi wrote:On June 04 2012 00:08 Zephirdd wrote:On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). 1. You're basically saying that town will stab itself on the foot by lynching me -_- 2. That makes no sense. Wbg is a known veteran and obvious target; Radfield and Kurumi, even though are veterans, have suspicion over eachother(or that's how I see it). Besides, we don't know your alignment; As far as we know, you killed wbg because you thought he'd find you.Also, with noone claiming to be roleblocked so far, I think it's safe to assume the mafia got a Framer. This is specially true because I wasn't roleblocked even though I "basically" had blueclaimed. Kurumi not being roleblocked/killed isn't incredible, however: mafia knows if there is any Vigilante in game, and Kurumi claiming vigilante would only mean to them "lol fakeclaim" if there is no vigilante in the setup.
Not sure what to make about prplhz and toadestern. Zero time to make real long-term analysis, but Toad making such a huge fancy case against prplhz and not answering his rebuttal seems odd. Toad, do you still think prplhz is scum? Also, prpl Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Why would you be worried about someone making a case on you? To whom it may concern: What is your opinion on Toades/Kurumi X prplhz? My opinion is that Toadesstern is making a bad case and trying to push for a mislynch. Kurumi gives very little reasoning to his posts, and tunnels himself on a player of choice(Radfield day0/1, prplhz night1/day1). prplhz has answered most of the questions with reasonable responses. Go you~ Explain the bolded for me because I just don't understand it Will do.
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:On June 03 2012 23:55 Kurumi wrote:On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). So you think that wherebugsgo was correct with his reads and we should lynch into them? What? He wasn't a dt, he was a vt and it was D1. He died brainiac, and it wasn't the flu. Sure he was a veteran and that makes him a target but why would they kill him if all his targets were town. If they have a town veteran beeing suspicious at other townies thats a goldmine for the mafia. Making the townies fight and push lynches amongst themselves. They don't kill their own goldmines regardless of how feared scumhunters they are. And wbg is known to be an exellent scumplayer not an amazing scumhunter. @Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. [1]So, you are saying that wbg, not being a good scumhunter according to you, found scum on his "list". A list that includes not only me, Navillus(town) and Kurumi, but you as well. Then he dies. [2]Then you decided to use that as an argument against me, when that same argument can be used against you. An argument that says "wbg has a suspicion on you so you killed him because of that". You said it had to be because of me because "you" know you are town. Well, guess what: we don't know you are town and the argument can be sent back at you. (not to mention all the lurking and lack of reasoning for your accusations) Also you seem less confident than usual risk. What's wrong, afraid of something? Are you scum?
[1]I'm saying that wbg isn't feared for his scumhuntingskills which makes the reasoning that they killed him because they feared he migh step up his game (as kurumi put it) weak and very unlikely. Wbg not beeing a legendary scumhunter does not make him worthless at or unable to find scum. It doesn't have anything to do with his reputation. So yeah, looking at the reads of the person the mafia decided was a threat and killed is a legitimate strategy. It's infact very standard. 101, basics.
[2]lol yes zephirdd, you could say the same about me but for some reason you're not, feel free to enlighten me why? And for me it changes nothing I know what I know. So your point is what? That what I say is true but I can't prove it?
Zep, a question. Why do you choose to defend yourself with the your-case-is-bad/inadequate, rather then the I-am-innocent approach.
Kurumi I think the only way you know how to roast things is the sicilian style.
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Radfield, why are you alive?
Let me change my vote, I just hopped onto something
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By the way I know your answer and that's why I am voting you.
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I'm back. I'm eating a 9 ChickenMcNuggets Menu with coke and fries for those who are interested. The one that has the 0.5L coke.
Luckily it's only a 3 minute walk from my place but my friend is not around so no leaving the house on this fine sunday eveneing for me, which means I'll have more time for you guys :3
Here's the answer for Zephirdd & prplhz. Red = my answer:
On June 03 2012 19:45 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 10:59 Toadesstern wrote:We lynch Prplhz today Here's why: On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
[...]
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?I consider that mafia agenda. "It is very important for town that we know what role we give to eliminate confusion"? Yeah we eliminate mafia confusion by telling them what they'll get so they can counter pick, 1On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
[...]
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
[...]
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo. On June 02 2012 03:04 prplhz wrote:
I'm okay with lynching Sbrubbles.
[...] On June 02 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening. That's a lot of people he's willing to lynch without saying a thing about them except for wbg. The "case" on wbg was "WBG hasn't posted, therefore he has to be mafia because he doesn't care about the game" while at least half the players in this game had very few posts at that time. The rest is a bunch of mentions without actually saying why and I already said what I think about stuff like that: 2Looks like people testing watertemperature with their toes to check out what can get momentum without doing something themselves. 3Furthermore Navilus apparently was on his radar for not posting a lot, just like risk yet later on he says Nav not posting is a sign for townieness? Will come to that next but that's really odd. 4On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo I don't think that Navilus is scum. First, the guy has never played scum before. Second, his only contributions on day1 so far has been a post saying what he voted, and him calling you out. It doesn't look like he's just trying to avoid mod kill and it very much doesn't look like he's scum trying to hide with only 2 paltry posts during the whole day. I don't think first time scum will not do anything during the day than pick on a town wherebugsgo (but then again, are you town?) Moreover, in the last game I played with him he was also unavailable for a part of the game. You say that he didn't comment on the lynch, one thing that all scum knows to do at all times is have some sort of opinion on the lynch. I'd very much like to keep him around for now.
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? Navilus defense #1The reasoning here basicly is: "He never played mafia before. I think he would know better than to hide like that with only 2 posts." 5I'd consider that a contradiction. Everyone knows people who play mafia for the first time and what's the most frequent mistake those people make? They're not posting because they're scared and trying to hide to hard. At least that's how I have seen most people play their first time game as mafia. This defense makes no sense from a townie point of view no matter who nav was talking about in his two posts. 6On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum. Navilus defense #2Again. He says that first time scums mosty try not to stick out, as in they usually want to hide, yet he says "he absolutely knows how to do this better than this". How in the world do you know he can do better than this if he never played mafia before? How do you know he's not scared to post like most mafias are in their first game? Again, this defense makes so sense from a town point of view. 7On June 02 2012 05:44 prplhz wrote:On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
[...]
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
[...]
On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
[...]
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? On June 02 2012 05:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means I'm really just asking if you can clarify what you said. Remember his posts from earlier? Sure wbg is not backing up a thing but he's giving his basic thoughts. Now look back a bit and check out the posts prplhz did when he wanted to hear oppinions / accused people. He said nothing, he simply mentioned the names except for the WBG "case". That's as hypocritical as it can get. 8On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus Probably the weakest explanation for a vote I've ever seen. "sup guys. THAT GUY IS TOWN SHUT UP.... Oh, I guess he hasn't said he's sorry for being afk so long. Probably means he's mafia" 9
Fancy conclusion: - Prplhz defending Nav was REALLY odd and I can't imagine someone making arguments like that from a town perspective. Yeah I know I used to use arguments like that as well. L comes to mind where I said something along the lines of "Palmar looks way to scummy to be scum, something's wrong here" but that's because the guy is called Palmar and not Nav. We're talking about some guy who never played mafia before and Prplhz defends him on the basis of "the guy would play better as mafia because he hasn't ever played mafia before"...
- Prplhz is testing grounds before saying something all the time. He keeps asking people "what do you think about X, Y or Z?" and never says something himself and something like 30 hours later he picks one guy he feels comfortable to push and votes him with 3 lines of explanation.
- The voteswitch is horrible. The reasoning, as already mentioning is the weakest I've ever seen and I'd say he did that because that way he can say "sup guys, I voted him to secure a lynch but didn't want to. Btw TOLD YA HE'S TOWN" for towncred.
Lynch Prplhz please, thanks. 1: I don't consider that mafia agenda. I think it's better that we know what role mafia has and mafia know what role they have and what roles we have, than that we don't know any roles, and mafia knows all roles. Again, right now we can't know if scum has roleblocker or framer and that's a bad situation for us. I consider it mafia agend because we will know soon enough wether or not we have a RB or a framer. If noone claimes RB => framer, If someone claimes RB => RB. Yeah it could be faked but come on, who would do that2: I didn't have a huge reasonable for voting wherebugsgo I agree with that but if you look at how the state of the thread was at the time, nothing was happening, so I made a case that doubled as pressure vote and something to discuss. I had more reasonable on Sbrubbles than what you are posting so you are really just misrepresenting me here. Wanting to lynch you was because nobody was hooked on anything else and I have a hard time reading you while other people were thinking that you were scum so it was an okay lynch. I also NEVER SAID that wherebugsgo HAS TO BE SCUM. You are misrepresenting me. I never said you said "WBG HAS TO BE SCUM". I said you never gave any reasoning for voting someone except for WBG and that was as weak as it can get.
Also your reasoning on sbrubbles: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=254&topic_id=340727
Yeah right. That's huge, followed byShow nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening.
I can totally see how you're backing up everything you're saying and how that is more than you said about WBG!
My point still stands: I see you doing very little to explain your thoughts and only once in a while you explain something with either incredible weak reasoning or with something a townie would never say AFTER checking what people are willing to vote and what not.3: How does it look like that? I want you to answer this question 'cause it looks to me like you're just taking the current buzzword and then applying it to a situation for no reason. If you read my posts you will see that I pushed wherebugsgo and Sbrubbles a lot harder than you make it look like, I'm not testing any waters. What does testing waters even mean? Yes you are. "Testing waters" or water temperature is somewhat like a metapher for a kid standing next to a pool and instead of jumping in the water he's sticking his toe in there to check if the water is okay to jump in. Is that a german thing?
Anyways I'm seeing that. You keep on asking people what they think about someone without giving something yourself. And some hours later your decide for one guy (in this case WBG and sbrubbles) to push them once you see there's no opposition. And don't even tell me "yeah but look at what I did with nav". It only works in one direction for obvious reasons4: Yea, different things goes for different people. I played with Navilus in Resistance 2, go read that game. He was afk for a long period of time and he was really sorry about it when he came back. I expected something similar this game but he wasn't sorry when he came back so I decided that he would be an okay lynch. So you're teling me it was some kind of trap because you already played with him? You think not posting is not alignment indicating and therefore you listed him with another lurker to check what people think about them and disagree about nav once someone would jump in and say they're both looking scummy due to their abstinence?
Or what are you trying to tell me here? Why did you place him in there if not for the lurker thing? Why would you ask something like that about someone you have a townie-read?5: My reasoning was that a guy who has played some mafia, but hasn't been scum before, wouldn't try to hide by blatantly only make two measly posts. 6: Show me a game where a first time scum has played day1 with only two posts. Only people with well established meta would ever attempt to do that. You say it's happening all the time but I'm saying that it's actually never happening. Show me a single game, 'cause I have never seen it. Do you seriously think that only making 2 posts is a very clear scum tell? Then why didn't you push Navilus at all? This sounds like something you are just making up to use in this analysis. 7: How do you know that he is? He wasn't afraid to posts because I saw him post quite a lot on day1. How is making only 2 measly posts hiding? And are you seriously asking me "How can anybody have any conception about how it is to play scum when they have never played scum before?" because I consider that a very silly question. 5-7 all together: Well I have a conception on how to drive a motorcycle as well and on how to play Zerg to beat Flash in BW ZvT. I never rode a motorcycle nor did beat Flash in a 1v1 yet. I'm pretty sure I'd fail horribly.
Sure people have conceptions on how things should work out but that has nothing to do with reality, especially if it's your first time. All reasoning provided in here is SFW and was not intended as a metaphor for something else!
This is all based on "he never played scum before and I think he would be better as scum than what he see here" and this has nothing to do with reality. Sure he might have an idea on how to play or was told to not be afraid to post but in the end doing that yourself is something entirely different so saying "as a first time mafia player he should know better" makes no sense at all.8: I honestly don't even know what the accusations is here. What I do notice is that wherebugsgo gets some credit here for "not backing anything up, but still providing basic thoughts". You're accusing me of being scum for that very same reason in argument 2, and in argument 4 you're accusing me of being scum for having double standards! Hilarious. I'm not giving anyone cred, I only said that what wbg said is at least something people can work with while your usual posts are along the lines of "sup, what do you think of XXX?" while not doing something yourself. It's not about wbg looking good because he's not but he at least managed to make it look nullish while your posts are looking bad and you're asking him to clarify things...9: Yea, maybe stuff is a little weak, but it was on day1. If you read his filter in Resistance 2 then you'll see him being quite sorry for being afk and I was expecting the same here, except if he didn't feel sorry at all because he was scum. Maybe it's weak, I don't particularly think so for a day1 argument. I didn't say "probably means he's mafia", this is blatant misrepresentation. If you read my posts I give my very clear read of him in that situation and that is, and I quote, because you apparently lack the ability to do so properly: "I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think." which translate to "null slightly leaning scum". I'm sure that you, in your fervor, can find something you consider scummy about that too, but can you please argue with what I said instead of this misrepresentation. I never intented to quote. If I wanted to quote you I would have quoted you instead of putting the phrase in " " tags.
When I put something in " " tags I paraphrase it to what the message reads to me. But glad you agree that the reasoning given by you is really weak after you furiously defended him earlier.
Your conclusion is pretty silly, but overall your analysis is so bullshit that I'm a little less worried about you now. Oh yeah, testing the waters? I think you did that too according to your definition about it, you make short mentions about me in your filter too, and then after Kurumi decides to mindlessly tunnel me for an entire night you jump on it and make a big case. Isn't that testing the waters? What does that even mean? I already answered that part in another post
Summary: My case is not about Prplhz defending a townie as people (Zephirdd) pointed out.
My case is on him having no reason to defend him and yet he does so furiously only to make a move back and tell people he might be mafia because he has not given an excuse for his lurking.
Prplhz had no proper reasoning to defend that guy at all, yet he did although other people agreed that his statemens about nav are utterly pointless or wrong.
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Another update for Zephirdd: I'm going out to buy some food for tomorrow or I'll feel like starving again. Can't live on McDonalds every day or I'll be poor.
Actual important update I voted prplhz and you should do the same
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Posted by risk.nuke on god-knows-when look at his filter
[2]lol yes zephirdd, you could say the same about me but for some reason you're not, feel free to enlighten me why? And for me it changes nothing I know what I know. So your point is what? That what I say is true but I can't prove it?
Zep, a question. Why do you choose to defend yourself with the your-case-is-bad/inadequate, rather then the I-am-innocent approach.
Holy shit.
What do you mean I'm not? So me saying it's bad to lynch me warrants a "blue claim", but when I am obviously saying something applies to you it means I'm not using it? Yes I am using that on you and yes, because it is objectively a bad case it MEANS I am innocent - because a good case would mean it is right.
It is a bad case -> it is bad reasoning and therefore it cannot prove me guilty. Can't prove me guilty = ~(Guilty) = Innocent. Basic logic.
This... this is all so wrong. Holy crap.
I'll spend the afternoon with my gf but not without ##vote risk.nuke.
You want a case?
-> Bad reasoning to push mislynches
-> Bad rebuttal for arguments against him
-> (Meta) Not showing nearly half of his usual confidence of when he is town; Look at PYP:R first few days for a recent sample(I apologize for using an ongoing game for this but the relevant part won't affect that game)
-> Throws accusation at multiple people without backing it up(mid day1, check his filter for it)
good afternoon.
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by the way you can still count me for prplhz lynch
I just have a little detour right now
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+ Show Spoiler [next update] +Back. I've got a pack of salmon, 500g chicken filet, one red parika, a bunch of green stuff (salad ), 2 frozen pizzas for next time I'm desperatly starving, two bars of chocolat (a white one and one with hazelnuts :3) and I've still got plenty of rice and noodles in here, so I should be fine for now. Also I finally took a shower because the heating in my parents place seems to be broken, which meant only icecold water for the last 2 and a half day Oh and I played a little D3 so it took a littler longer than I thought
About the game: Zeph you apparently think what I posted is a bad case. I read what you posted and it seems to come down to "why is defending someone as townie without proper reason something that makes someone scummy?".
I gave reason why it makes someone scummy.
First of all because it looks like someone having more information than I have and apparently more information than WBG had as well. Probably more information than Kurumi had as well but that's not 100% clear until he flips.
Secondly because saying people are town is the easiest way to get towncred. If you say someone and that someone flips town you're the good guy who told everyone to shut up because it's going to be a mislynch. And that's no problem as long as you give proper reasoning as to why you think the guy is town. Mafias however tend to just post a couple of "townreads" early on because that's way easier to do from a mafia point of view than to make up some bullshit on why someone is mafia. You look good if the guy flips town and that's all you want.
But again, the important part here is that prplhz had no reason to defend nav so furiosly and people disagreed with his reasoning for a reason but he still told people that that guy is town.
As that seems to be the issue right now for calling my case retarded (well you didn't call it retarded but you seem to think it's wrong & bad) would you mind explaining why the "pattern" I have pointet out is something that should not be considered as scummy?
As things stand right now I think I made my point quite clear. I think what prplhz did d1 should be considered scummy as fuck and all you did is say it's wrong, you asked me why calling nav town should be considred scummy, I answered why it's scummy and you haven't answered. So please tell me why my reasoning is wrong or stop calling my case bad telling people that you think I'm trying to get a mislynch based on that "bad" case.
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EBWOP
"why is defending someone as townie without proper reason something that makes someone scummy?".
I guess that could be misunderstoof easily because that's german grammar lol.
It's meant to be something along the lines of "why is defending someone, saying he's a townie [the guy in question, aka nav] , without proper reason something that makes someone scummy"
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Alright, I've been filtering for about the last 3 hours and need a break. I have yet to do Toad and Kurumi, but that's because their filters are always a daunting task
First of all, prefiltering I was feeling quite strongly that Zephirdd was scum. The combo of weak accusations, flip flopping and the fake blue claim all added up to him being almost certainly scum. However, upon reading his filter I think that is incorrect. His play has certainly been poor, but I do not think it has been scummy. I don't have any real specifics, but his mannerisms and general demeanor are leading me towards him being town. It feels like he has been shooting from the hip this game, which is why he's getting into trouble.
Second, I don't think prplhz is scum. His play so far has been straightforward, and his reasoning has been sound. I think he has a solid defense from toad, and I don't think his play in relation to Navillus was scummy. In fact, for anyone who played in WoF mafia, it was the exact same thing I was saying about Zentor in that game. Mafia generally KNOW what is scummy, and play to avoid that. Mafia priority early on is blending in and looking town, and this game day 0 was really really easy for scum to blend in. Navillus was most definitely not trying to blend in or look town.
It should have been obvious to me that navillus was town, but that long post of his was really poor and set me going. Day 1 is very difficult if mafia have plenty of neutral things to discuss.
Third, some setup speculation: No cop claim today means no 1-shot cop. No bullet means no vigilante(a 2-shot vig in a mini should be shooting night 1). Neither of those are surprising, as mafia giving us medic+tracker is much more likely. If no IC claims tomorrow during our mayor election(talismania is right that this is when is should be revealed), then we pretty much know for sure that we have a medic+tracker.
Also, given the fact that WBG died and not me, I assume we have a medic.
Additionally, we also have no roleblocker claim, which means we have a framer. There is an outside chance that mafia simply opted to not roleblock, but that seems unlikely to me.
+ Show Spoiler [Vote Count] +Keep in mind that prplhz's vote apparently did not count, so the 'voting' was 5-5-1.
Framer
Sbrubbles
Kurumi
Zephirdd
wherebugsgo
sloosh
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
Godfather
Hiropro
I think Hiropro is town, and I think mafia voted 2-1 in favor of roleblocker. Vocal opinion on Day 0 seemed like it was going to be a landslide roleblocker victory, and I think mafia would be far more likely to double up on RB than on Framer. Additionally, given the fact that we ended up with framer and not roleblocker, it seems very likely that there are too many fake votes in the roleblocker camp.
Prplhz, you mentioned that you felt mafia would likely double up on framer, and not roleblocker. Why?
I think we can all agree that a 3-0 from mafia is exceedingly unlikely. So that leaves us with 1 scum in the framer camp, and 2 scum in the roleblocker camp. I am in the roleblocker camp, and I also have 2 town reads in the roleblocker camp, which leaves the situation like this:
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 04 2012 04:54 Toadesstern wrote:EBWOPShow nested quote +"why is defending someone as townie without proper reason something that makes someone scummy?". I guess that could be misunderstoof easily because that's german grammar lol. It's meant to be something along the lines of "why is defending someone, saying he's a townie [the guy in question, aka nav] , without proper reason something that makes someone scummy"
Prplhz did have a reason. His reasoning was simple. Navillus was doing something that scum would generally NOT do. Scum like to blend in and look townish early on, especially in a game like this where Day 0 contributions are so easy. Navillus did not do this.
Not to mention, Prplhz did not play the 'stop guys he's town' card, which you seem to be claiming he did. If anything you should be jumping on prp for VOTING for navillus after defending him. He actually voted for navillus before you did....
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Oh yeah, no one should be voting yet. We've got our lynch lock on.
If you want to show you're voting for someone, just write your votes in this thread, but don't put them in the voting thread.
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Funny how Kurumi wants to lynch me because I didn't care about the lynch and Toadesstern wants to lynch me because I argued too furiously about it.
@Toadesstern You didn't read Navilus' filter from Resistance 2 did you? Really, just read the 5 first posts and you'll see where I'm coming from with the whole Navilus deal. Here you go. I don't expect you to come around (at least not on your own) but I'm going to try to make it hard for you not to.
Also, I'm not going to respond to your response 'cause I wouldn't achieve anything by it and I don't want to text wall this place up. Most of it is how you disagree with me and the stuff that I do and trying a little too hard to interpret it as scummy instead of keeping a neutral POV. It's really that simple and it never required a text wall from either of us to begin with.
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On June 04 2012 05:30 Radfield wrote:
Oh yeah, no one should be voting yet. We've got our lynch lock on.
If you want to show you're voting for someone, just write your votes in this thread, but don't put them in the voting thread.
why are you alive
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On June 04 2012 05:31 prplhz wrote:Funny how Kurumi wants to lynch me because I didn't care about the lynch and Toadesstern wants to lynch me because I argued too furiously about it. @Toadesstern You didn't read Navilus' filter from Resistance 2 did you? Really, just read the 5 first posts and you'll see where I'm coming from with the whole Navilus deal. Here you go. I don't expect you to come around (at least not on your own) but I'm going to try to make it hard for you not to. Also, I'm not going to respond to your response 'cause I wouldn't achieve anything by it and I don't want to text wall this place up. Most of it is how you disagree with me and the stuff that I do and trying a little too hard to interpret it as scummy instead of keeping a neutral POV. It's really that simple and it never required a text wall from either of us to begin with.
since you've brought no cases with you like you said you're going to, how are things in scum qt? happy with the results so far? no? you honestly though wbg is blue? funny
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 04 2012 05:31 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 05:30 Radfield wrote:
Oh yeah, no one should be voting yet. We've got our lynch lock on.
If you want to show you're voting for someone, just write your votes in this thread, but don't put them in the voting thread. why are you alive
Do you think we have a medic? If we have a medic, mafia know it. It's fairly obvious that I would be the target of any potential medic protection. Hence, mafia do not shoot me.
Exact same thing happened in I'm a Cop you Idiot. I was fairly obviously town, we had a medic, so mafia shot bugs instead of me. And just like then, I'm thrilled it happened because it means I don't have to worry about bugs anymore.
This is exactly why I wanted a medic by the way
I assume you are insinuating I am scum because I survived N1. Last game I died Night 1 was Mafia XLVII, 6 town games ago. However I've died 3 other times N2 since then. My previous N1 death before that was all the way back at XXII. I don't really die N1 that much anymore, because medics and mafia know me. I mainly die/take hits on Night 2.
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On June 04 2012 01:57 Kurumi wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ CMVBW HPUWK SWBSQ MUNRS KVNSU WBDFH UWMTR VLUPF HUBHV AAVRI BVLJM GGARH OFUWC GFLVN CDUIR KDVNP SDAXO DUAIJ TQALV XOHAW GXGCQ LRBUD RNVUJ DQUES GOTAI CLMJS XCVPT LIQAB PRHAD XELUF HJSJU KKTJV BGTUF KJLOH XRQDO SJLSA MWDHN GBGUH FKPAE FTEEO NTLQL BGNEA UVTIX FQQUV ASWFZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message
xR2012Ky
"blalblablallblablbla there's a medic!!!!11"
lekarz moja dupa cholero
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Really Kurumi, you're just spamming the thread by now. I never promised any cases within a couple of hours. I have suspicions but I intend to see this day through before posting anything substantial. I might do it sooner though.
It would really work a lot better if you had the patience to wait until I was clearly not going to do what you though I needed to do if I was town. If I'm town and I make a case now you'll just say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!" while if I'm scum you'll say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!". You can only achieve something by actually being quiet for just one moment and then see if I do what I promised like townies would be prone to do or if I get lazy like scum would be prone to do.
Mafia is like quantum physics; you can't prod shit without also changing it and possibly rendering it completely useless.
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On June 04 2012 05:45 prplhz wrote:
Really Kurumi, you're just spamming the thread by now. I never promised any cases within a couple of hours. I have suspicions but I intend to see this day through before posting anything substantial. I might do it sooner though.
It would really work a lot better if you had the patience to wait until I was clearly not going to do what you though I needed to do if I was town. If I'm town and I make a case now you'll just say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!" while if I'm scum you'll say "Hah! It was only because I reminded you!". You can only achieve something by actually being quiet for just one moment and then see if I do what I promised like townies would be prone to do or if I get lazy like scum would be prone to do.
Mafia is like quantum physics; you can't prod shit without also changing it and possibly rendering it completely useless.
wait you're saying that you might or might not be town
what
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@Radfield Uhmn, I said that I had a hard time being objective about it because I thought that roleblocker was the "right" choice for town but other people obviously didn't. I don't think we can achieve anything by speculating about 2-1 either way because voting 2-1 in favor of what scum thought would be a slight minority isn't a problem at all since roles are randomized at ties. The worst they can do is eventually tell us that there is at least one scum in one of the lists but that's not really outing anybody. I also think that it was actually very close in the thread between framer and roleblocker if you read it again, I was just biased in favor of roleblocker and I assumed that people would probably vote it when they didn't really say so.
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@Radfield Requesting a paragraph or two about your opinion of talismania (that he's likely town).
Also I'd like to know why you preferred a potential vigilante killing me over risk.nuke last night, and what changed your opinion today.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm fairly certain Toad is scum. Case incoming ~30-45. Hold on to your hats.
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On June 04 2012 06:08 Radfield wrote:
I'm fairly certain Toad is scum. Case incoming ~30-45. Hold on to your hats.
remember you can't make a switch again
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On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Alright, I've been filtering for about the last 3 hours and need a break. I have yet to do Toad and Kurumi, but that's because their filters are always a daunting task First of all, prefiltering I was feeling quite strongly that Zephirdd was scum. The combo of weak accusations, flip flopping and the fake blue claim all added up to him being almost certainly scum. However, upon reading his filter I think that is incorrect. His play has certainly been poor, but I do not think it has been scummy. I don't have any real specifics, but his mannerisms and general demeanor are leading me towards him being town. It feels like he has been shooting from the hip this game, which is why he's getting into trouble. Second, I don't think prplhz is scum. His play so far has been straightforward, and his reasoning has been sound. I think he has a solid defense from toad, and I don't think his play in relation to Navillus was scummy. In fact, for anyone who played in WoF mafia, it was the exact same thing I was saying about Zentor in that game. Mafia generally KNOW what is scummy, and play to avoid that. Mafia priority early on is blending in and looking town, and this game day 0 was really really easy for scum to blend in. Navillus was most definitely not trying to blend in or look town. It should have been obvious to me that navillus was town, but that long post of his was really poor and set me going. Day 1 is very difficult if mafia have plenty of neutral things to discuss. Third, some setup speculation: No cop claim today means no 1-shot cop. No bullet means no vigilante(a 2-shot vig in a mini should be shooting night 1). Neither of those are surprising, as mafia giving us medic+tracker is much more likely. If no IC claims tomorrow during our mayor election(talismania is right that this is when is should be revealed), then we pretty much know for sure that we have a medic+tracker. Also, given the fact that WBG died and not me, I assume we have a medic. Additionally, we also have no roleblocker claim, which means we have a framer. There is an outside chance that mafia simply opted to not roleblock, but that seems unlikely to me. + Show Spoiler [Vote Count] +Keep in mind that prplhz's vote apparently did not count, so the 'voting' was 5-5-1.
Framer
Sbrubbles
Kurumi
Zephirdd
wherebugsgo
sloosh
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
Godfather
Hiropro I think Hiropro is town, and I think mafia voted 2-1 in favor of roleblocker. Vocal opinion on Day 0 seemed like it was going to be a landslide roleblocker victory, and I think mafia would be far more likely to double up on RB than on Framer. Additionally, given the fact that we ended up with framer and not roleblocker, it seems very likely that there are too many fake votes in the roleblocker camp. Prplhz, you mentioned that you felt mafia would likely double up on framer, and not roleblocker. Why? I think we can all agree that a 3-0 from mafia is exceedingly unlikely. So that leaves us with 1 scum in the framer camp, and 2 scum in the roleblocker camp. I am in the roleblocker camp, and I also have 2 town reads in the roleblocker camp, which leaves the situation like this: From my vantage point: RoleblockerNavillustalismaniatoadesstern radfieldrisk.nuke prplhzAll of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum. To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that. Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind. Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out?
Well not much to say about this from my point of view because there's really nothing I can "answer" but here's one thing you should know yourself:
If that's honestly a reason to lynch into me you have to lynch me every single game. I have not been able to make you think I'm a townie in a single game ever since the Annul disaster. The important thing here is that that's for both alignment.
You called me "a little scummy" in everyy game d1 we have played after the annul game. That's right in EVERY.
Was I mafia in every of those games?
That's the reason for all the "you probably should ask Radfield, I heard he's really good in figureing me out" jokes I keep doing. Remember PYP were I flipped town (still ongoing) and you're coaching it?
Remember C9++ #2? You called me mafia d1 as well and I said something along the lines of "well that probably confirms me as town" if I remember correctly.
You called me "a little suspicious" in the first of those games foru hosted (don't know the name anymore, the one with spies and people being send on a mission) and yeah you were right that game but as mentioned you say that every game about me.
I guess that Annul game was more traumatic than I thought if that's what is has come to.
Same as Zephirdd here, give me something to work with and I'll work with it.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 04 2012 06:07 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield Requesting a paragraph or two about your opinion of talismania (that he's likely town).
Also I'd like to know why you preferred a potential vigilante killing me over risk.nuke last night, and what changed your opinion today.
I reread your filter is what changed my mind.
There was something funny going on with your posts though, and you voted Navillus real quick after defending him for a bit. I think Kurumi wrote something that swayed me a bit as well. I'm really not sure why I was leaning scummy on you right there, I even had you written down as PROB TOWN in my notes. I could go back and reread and tell you my thought process, but I really don't feel like it right now, though your question is a valid one.
I also don't really feel like writing about talismania, though I will at a later date. Right now I want to build my case.
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On June 04 2012 06:12 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 06:07 prplhz wrote:
@Radfield Requesting a paragraph or two about your opinion of talismania (that he's likely town).
Also I'd like to know why you preferred a potential vigilante killing me over risk.nuke last night, and what changed your opinion today. I reread your filter is what changed my mind. There was something funny going on with your posts though, and you voted Navillus real quick after defending him for a bit. I think Kurumi wrote something that swayed me a bit as well. I'm really not sure why I was leaning scummy on you right there, I even had you written down as PROB TOWN in my notes. I could go back and reread and tell you my thought process, but I really don't feel like it right now, though your question is a valid one. I also don't really feel like writing about talismania, though I will at a later date. Right now I want to build my case.
wink wink wonk wonk
let me get my vote off you
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On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
[...]
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out?
This is almost exactly how I feel. Anyone who is not looking at the game through the lens of the d0 votes needs to do so.
There's a couple of assumptions to get to mafia having framer that should be stated though:
1) HiroPro is town. Therefore scum did not vote 1-1-1 and likely voted 2-1-0. A big assumption I suppose but as I wrote d1 I can't imagine that if he were scum his scumbuddies would have let him vote GF. Maybe if he's scum with Risk.nuke, who brought up the 1-1-1 thing but that's the only scenario I can see it in.
2) No one claiming being roleblocked means that mafia don't have a roleblocker - the assumption implicit there is that mafia wouldn't use their roleblocker against themselves, knowing that using it on town would give away how the votes played out. Or maybe they didn't use it at all. Would a mafia roleblocker have to use their power? I'm really iffy on this assumption. It depends on if the scum team was smart enough to realize that using the roleblocker would immediately point to two people on the framer list. I feel like they would be but who knows.
So - if there is a framer it's either
toad + risk.nuke
Radfield + prp
I was actually leaning towards toad + radfield earlier because of how buddy-buddy toad acted towards him but now it's clear that is unlikely to be the case, unless they think they need to bus for some reason I guess. Toad and prp can't be together because of the strength of the case toad is making, with the same caveat as with toad and radfield.
Radfield + prp is the "conspiracy theory" pair. To make that case you have to assume that radfield freely cast doubt on prp, even agreeing with prp being shot (although come to think of it I guess that if he was scum he would know that town didn't have a vig so scratch that), and then backed down later. To complete the conspiracy theory, add in zephirdd, whom rad and prp acted together to save by getting the navilus train rolling.
The main problem I can't get past with this pair is prp's play to outright claim "Oh my vote didn't count, btw" Is that really a super-clever scum excuse? I mean (1) having that idea is borderline genius and (2) actually following through with it is incredibly ballsy. Why risk that when you could just lay low amongst the 6 RB voters?
Toad + risk.nuke on the other hand has little to argue against it (there's not much to argue for it either I suppose - toad is as confusing and difficult to understand as he was to me pick your power. Risk-nuke has a lot less thread presence than he did that game but he hasn't really done much yet either). They haven't interacted much with each other. Toad has thrown out a few names, as has risk, but each other's have not come up I don't believe. I don't know who the third would be. I would add zephirdd again because toad said he didn't like the zephirdd lynch d1, but risk.nuke has come out in favor of such a lynch today. One of the other framer voters I guess.
If assumption (2) above is wrong and it's 1-2-0 and there is a roleblocker and not a framer,
then it's some pair out of
sbrubbles, kurumi, zephirdd, and sloosh
Which means it's unlikely to be sloosh and sbrubbles because of sloosh's hard pressure at the end of day one (unless that was just really forward-thinking play or something. It is interesting that sloosh hasn't continued to press sbrubbles day two. Acually a quick filter check shows that he's away this weekend so that explains that.). It's also unlikely to be kurumi and zephirdd because of kurumi's stance toward zephirdd. Any combination of the others is possible in my eyes.
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On June 04 2012 07:09 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
[...]
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out? This is almost exactly how I feel. Anyone who is not looking at the game through the lens of the d0 votes needs to do so. There's a couple of assumptions to get to mafia having framer that should be stated though: 1) HiroPro is town. Therefore scum did not vote 1-1-1 and likely voted 2-1-0. A big assumption I suppose but as I wrote d1 I can't imagine that if he were scum his scumbuddies would have let him vote GF. Maybe if he's scum with Risk.nuke, who brought up the 1-1-1 thing but that's the only scenario I can see it in. 2) No one claiming being roleblocked means that mafia don't have a roleblocker - the assumption implicit there is that mafia wouldn't use their roleblocker against themselves, knowing that using it on town would give away how the votes played out. Or maybe they didn't use it at all. Would a mafia roleblocker have to use their power? I'm really iffy on this assumption. It depends on if the scum team was smart enough to realize that using the roleblocker would immediately point to two people on the framer list. I feel like they would be but who knows. So - if there is a framer it's either toad + risk.nuke Radfield + prp I was actually leaning towards toad + radfield earlier because of how buddy-buddy toad acted towards him but now it's clear that is unlikely to be the case, unless they think they need to bus for some reason I guess. Toad and prp can't be together because of the strength of the case toad is making, with the same caveat as with toad and radfield. Radfield + prp is the "conspiracy theory" pair. To make that case you have to assume that radfield freely cast doubt on prp, even agreeing with prp being shot (although come to think of it I guess that if he was scum he would know that town didn't have a vig so scratch that), and then backed down later. To complete the conspiracy theory, add in zephirdd, whom rad and prp acted together to save by getting the navilus train rolling. The main problem I can't get past with this pair is prp's play to outright claim "Oh my vote didn't count, btw" Is that really a super-clever scum excuse? I mean (1) having that idea is borderline genius and (2) actually following through with it is incredibly ballsy. Why risk that when you could just lay low amongst the 6 RB voters? Toad + risk.nuke on the other hand has little to argue against it (there's not much to argue for it either I suppose - toad is as confusing and difficult to understand as he was to me pick your power. Risk-nuke has a lot less thread presence than he did that game but he hasn't really done much yet either). They haven't interacted much with each other. Toad has thrown out a few names, as has risk, but each other's have not come up I don't believe. I don't know who the third would be. I would add zephirdd again because toad said he didn't like the zephirdd lynch d1, but risk.nuke has come out in favor of such a lynch today. One of the other framer voters I guess. If assumption (2) above is wrong and it's 1-2-0 and there is a roleblocker and not a framer, then it's some pair out of sbrubbles, kurumi, zephirdd, and sloosh Which means it's unlikely to be sloosh and sbrubbles because of sloosh's hard pressure at the end of day one (unless that was just really forward-thinking play or something. It is interesting that sloosh hasn't continued to press sbrubbles day two. Acually a quick filter check shows that he's away this weekend so that explains that.). It's also unlikely to be kurumi and zephirdd because of kurumi's stance toward zephirdd. Any combination of the others is possible in my eyes.
1) You say you don't believe in the 1-1-1 unless risk is mafia. Later you say you think it's me + Risk ?
2) Prplhz's vote can be used for 1-1-1 as well, you considered him the alternative yet you say it has to be 2-1 either way?
3) You say my case on Prplhz is strong and therefore doubt I'd be bussing him bud at the same time doubt Rad would bus me? What's the difference that makes you think one is possible and the other one is not?
4) Prplhz playing using the "invalid vote" thing. You played PYP as well? You saw sent "counterclaim" risk & marv as mafia? You saw barundar counterclaim the medic as SK ? I'd say at least equally ballsy and as mentioned the reason I don't consider that an argument anymore lol
5) I am as confusing as in PYP? What did I flip in PYP again?
6) Yeah the third in that "mafiateam" (I'm making it in " " tags because I'm not mafia...) would be Zephirdd. Because frankly Zephirdd and I like each other so much. As seen when I did the case on prplhz.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Why is Toad scum.
Or rather, why do I think Toad is scum. This may be slightly long winded, and it certainly won't be concise. Toad is an active player as scum, and has fooled me twice before because of that. There is no clear and decisive scum agenda Toad is pushing, and there is no one thing that makes him scum(though I did find my first ever real-live damning scumslip). Instead what I have is a body of evidence that shows Toad is not playing with Town goals in mind. He is playing in an effort to lead mislynches, and with a goal of keeping town moving in the wrong direction.
I find very little scummy in Toad's Day 0 play. With lots to contribute and lots to discuss it is extremely easy for an active scum player(like Toad) to blend in on Day 0. Apart from the fact that he begins to buddy me very early on, I see little that leads me to think he is scum in the first 24 hours.
Day 1 however is a very different story. I'd like to talk about 4 main points. First, the pushing of Hiropro. Second, the WBG flip flop(which has been discussed, but not adequately). Third, and most damning, the double scum slip. Fourth and lastly, the case on Prplhz. There are also several additional small isolated issues which I will mention.
Please remember that none of these points by themselves indicate that Toad is scum. But taken as an entire body of evidence they amount to a damning case against a very likely scum player.
I'd also like to mention that this case is NOT based on my previous analysis of Framer/Roleblocker/GF votes. That was an exercise to narrow down my focus, NOT the basis of a case. However I am confident that I was correct in my assessment.
Point Number 1: the attack on Hiropro
What I'd like to represent is that Toad attempts to push a lynch onto Hiro very strongly. A lynch not based on whether or not Hiro is scummy, but rather based solely on the fact that Hiro voted GF. Additionally, Toad states strongly and ephatically that Hiro is scum.... and then waffles away and gives alternate targets.
Let me say that again, he is almost sure that hiro is scum, going so far as to say "Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia", but then offers up other lynch options. What!? If you think a guy is for sure scum, and has slipped hard, you don't just offer up other options.
Also, witness the tone:
First, incredulity and confusion, but no accusation:
On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf?
Second: Weirdness and oddness, with some discussion about why you should stick to the plans. Again, no hint of a strong accusation here. An accusation perhaps of not being a team player, even equating his play to a townie from a different game, but both those things actually soft accuse Hiropro of being Town, just not a team player.
On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd.
Next post and several hours later Toad drops down his vote without further discussion. No additional points raised, but we've gone from gentle admonition to wanting him to hang.
He follows it up with this post which is a giant contradiction. A) thinks Hiro is basically a claimed mafia. B) is willing to lynch some other guy who is NOT a claimed mafia in Toads eyes. That does not jive one bit.
On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Toad then goes on to only softly push Hiropro. First adding on a convoluted reason for him to be scum, which is quickly shown to be incorrect, and then falling into softy urging posts like these:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that? On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa
This from a guy who felt he had bagged a scum straight up. The real gist here is that Toad's tone does not follow any kind of cohesion. He's hot and cold and up and down on hiro, but always with a pushing towards lynch.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flop
First Toad makes 3 posts that point him having a pretty null read on bugs, and certainly not a scum read:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 01:10 Toadesstern wrote:
[EDIT: referring to bugs:)Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
On June 01 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. On June 01 2012 02:35 Toadesstern wrote:
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now.
However, without mentioning him again, he now wants to lynch bugs. Not only that, but he's adding in bugs when he has already apparently found a 'claimed mafia' in Hiropro.
On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Also, look at his reasoning: not knowing the cycle was 24 hours, and not posting. Yet those are the exact thing that Toad mentioned earlier, not as scummy though, but as null! So how do those things suddenly become the basis of a case to rival hiropro, someone he thinks is very likely scum.
Straight up contradictions.
Point 3: The scum slips
Let me be clear that I have never before found what I consider to be a true 'scum-slip'. The word gets bandied about on this site, and can mean pretty much anything. What it really means though, is to be in possession of information that townies could not possibly have, and only mafia could have.
On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
hmm, where's the scum-slip you ask? I missed it at first too, but it's very clearly there. Toad is absolutely 100% he will be around on Day 2. There is only 1 way, and I do mean 1 way, that Toad can be convinced he will live till Day 2.
But maybe it was just a slip of the tongue, and he's not actually sure he'll survive the night....
On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p
Except he does it again!! He confirms the scumslip. This is a guy who just recently was shot night 1 in WoF mini-mafia, and has been getting shot more and more by mafia. There is no reason at all he should be certain he'll survive the night. In fact, if he is town he should be expecting that he is one of the more likely shots.
In fact, he even posts his prplhz case right before the deadline, as if he might get shot. But how then is he 100% certain he'll survive till Day 2. There are no vets, and no other way he could be certain he will survive.
The only way to be certain is if he is scum.
Point 4: The prplhz case
I'm going to make this brief, as I feel there is already a body of evidence that shows Toads guilt without this. However Toads push on prplhz is indicative of a scum-push. Very often, when a scum player tries to push a townie, he does it by citing the wrong reasons. There are reasons to see prplhz as scummy, but NOT because of his defense of Navillus.
The key is that prplhz defended Navillus several times, but then switched over and voted for him early on in the wagon(3rd vote). There is an argument to be made there that prplhz was scummy in doing that. Toad touches on that, but his focus is squarely on the fact that prplhz should not have found Navillus scummy in the first place.
This is a competely backwards approach, one because prplhz was clear in his reasoning, and second because townies are defended all the time along the same lines prplhz was using.
Toad is pushing prplhz for the wrong reason, something which scum do all the time. This is not a particularly strong point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Additionally, Toad has been buddying me all game, asking for activity without contributing himself and appealing to dead players. Add in the 4 points of my case, and you have a player who is almost assuredly mafia.
Vote for Toad. In fact, I don't even mind if you vote in the voting thread too, as I'm fairly sure he is scum.
##Vote: Toadesstern
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On June 04 2012 07:27 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:09 talismania wrote:On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
[...]
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out? This is almost exactly how I feel. Anyone who is not looking at the game through the lens of the d0 votes needs to do so. There's a couple of assumptions to get to mafia having framer that should be stated though: 1) HiroPro is town. Therefore scum did not vote 1-1-1 and likely voted 2-1-0. A big assumption I suppose but as I wrote d1 I can't imagine that if he were scum his scumbuddies would have let him vote GF. Maybe if he's scum with Risk.nuke, who brought up the 1-1-1 thing but that's the only scenario I can see it in. 2) No one claiming being roleblocked means that mafia don't have a roleblocker - the assumption implicit there is that mafia wouldn't use their roleblocker against themselves, knowing that using it on town would give away how the votes played out. Or maybe they didn't use it at all. Would a mafia roleblocker have to use their power? I'm really iffy on this assumption. It depends on if the scum team was smart enough to realize that using the roleblocker would immediately point to two people on the framer list. I feel like they would be but who knows. So - if there is a framer it's either toad + risk.nuke Radfield + prp I was actually leaning towards toad + radfield earlier because of how buddy-buddy toad acted towards him but now it's clear that is unlikely to be the case, unless they think they need to bus for some reason I guess. Toad and prp can't be together because of the strength of the case toad is making, with the same caveat as with toad and radfield. Radfield + prp is the "conspiracy theory" pair. To make that case you have to assume that radfield freely cast doubt on prp, even agreeing with prp being shot (although come to think of it I guess that if he was scum he would know that town didn't have a vig so scratch that), and then backed down later. To complete the conspiracy theory, add in zephirdd, whom rad and prp acted together to save by getting the navilus train rolling. The main problem I can't get past with this pair is prp's play to outright claim "Oh my vote didn't count, btw" Is that really a super-clever scum excuse? I mean (1) having that idea is borderline genius and (2) actually following through with it is incredibly ballsy. Why risk that when you could just lay low amongst the 6 RB voters? Toad + risk.nuke on the other hand has little to argue against it (there's not much to argue for it either I suppose - toad is as confusing and difficult to understand as he was to me pick your power. Risk-nuke has a lot less thread presence than he did that game but he hasn't really done much yet either). They haven't interacted much with each other. Toad has thrown out a few names, as has risk, but each other's have not come up I don't believe. I don't know who the third would be. I would add zephirdd again because toad said he didn't like the zephirdd lynch d1, but risk.nuke has come out in favor of such a lynch today. One of the other framer voters I guess. If assumption (2) above is wrong and it's 1-2-0 and there is a roleblocker and not a framer, then it's some pair out of sbrubbles, kurumi, zephirdd, and sloosh Which means it's unlikely to be sloosh and sbrubbles because of sloosh's hard pressure at the end of day one (unless that was just really forward-thinking play or something. It is interesting that sloosh hasn't continued to press sbrubbles day two. Acually a quick filter check shows that he's away this weekend so that explains that.). It's also unlikely to be kurumi and zephirdd because of kurumi's stance toward zephirdd. Any combination of the others is possible in my eyes. 1) You say you don't believe in the 1-1-1 unless risk is mafia. Later you say you think it's me + Risk ? 2) Prplhz's vote can be used for 1-1-1 as well, you considered him the alternative yet you say it has to be 2-1 either way? 3) You say my case on Prplhz is strong and therefore doubt I'd be bussing him bud at the same time doubt Rad would bus me? What's the difference that makes you think one is possible and the other one is not? 4) Prplhz playing using the "invalid vote" thing. You played PYP as well? You saw sent "counterclaim" risk & marv as mafia? You saw barundar counterclaim the medic as SK ? I'd say at least equally ballsy and as mentioned the reason I don't consider that an argument anymore lol 5) I am as confusing as in PYP? What did I flip in PYP again? 6) Yeah the third in that "mafiateam" (I'm making it in " " tags because I'm not mafia...) would be Zephirdd. Because frankly Zephirdd and I like each other so much. As seen when I did the case on prplhz.
1) if it's 1-1-1 then I doubt you're scum because of how involved you were in the d0 discussion and because you pushed hiropro so hard yesterday. So yes, if it's 1-1-1 I think risk.nuke could certainly be involved. But I don't buy that it is 1-1-1.
2) obviously anyone's vote can be used for 1-1-1 if it is that way, but again I don't think it is.
3) I say that you are making a strong case on prp and are therefore unlikely to be mafia with him. I say that radfield is making a case on you and is therefore unlikely to be mafia with you. Both are the same to me - I think you misread.
4) of course prp doing that is possible. Hence the paranoia of playing mafia, "the educated guessing game of epic proportions" or whatever tl calls it. I'm not ruling prp out by any means but at some point you have to favor the simplest explanation.
5) true, which is why I put that bit in the "there's not much arguing for toad and risk" section.
6) the third could be anyone in any of these scenarios really but you're right in that I hadn't really considered your interactions with zephirdd today relative to yesterday.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
actually, it makes more sense to wait on our real votes.
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On June 04 2012 07:27 Radfield wrote:Why is Toad scum. Or rather, why do I think Toad is scum. This may be slightly long winded, and it certainly won't be concise. Toad is an active player as scum, and has fooled me twice before because of that. There is no clear and decisive scum agenda Toad is pushing, and there is no one thing that makes him scum(though I did find my first ever real-live damning scumslip). Instead what I have is a body of evidence that shows Toad is not playing with Town goals in mind. He is playing in an effort to lead mislynches, and with a goal of keeping town moving in the wrong direction. I find very little scummy in Toad's Day 0 play. With lots to contribute and lots to discuss it is extremely easy for an active scum player(like Toad) to blend in on Day 0. Apart from the fact that he begins to buddy me very early on, I see little that leads me to think he is scum in the first 24 hours. Day 1 however is a very different story. I'd like to talk about 4 main points. First, the pushing of Hiropro. Second, the WBG flip flop(which has been discussed, but not adequately). Third, and most damning, the double scum slip. Fourth and lastly, the case on Prplhz. There are also several additional small isolated issues which I will mention. Please remember that none of these points by themselves indicate that Toad is scum. But taken as an entire body of evidence they amount to a damning case against a very likely scum player. I'd also like to mention that this case is NOT based on my previous analysis of Framer/Roleblocker/GF votes. That was an exercise to narrow down my focus, NOT the basis of a case. However I am confident that I was correct in my assessment.
Point Number 1: the attack on HiroproWhat I'd like to represent is that Toad attempts to push a lynch onto Hiro very strongly. A lynch not based on whether or not Hiro is scummy, but rather based solely on the fact that Hiro voted GF. Additionally, Toad states strongly and ephatically that Hiro is scum.... and then waffles away and gives alternate targets. Let me say that again, he is almost sure that hiro is scum, going so far as to say "Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia", but then offers up other lynch options. What!? If you think a guy is for sure scum, and has slipped hard, you don't just offer up other options. Also, witness the tone: First, incredulity and confusion, but no accusation: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf? Second: Weirdness and oddness, with some discussion about why you should stick to the plans. Again, no hint of a strong accusation here. An accusation perhaps of not being a team player, even equating his play to a townie from a different game, but both those things actually soft accuse Hiropro of being Town, just not a team player. Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. Next post and several hours later Toad drops down his vote without further discussion. No additional points raised, but we've gone from gentle admonition to wanting him to hang. He follows it up with this post which is a giant contradiction. A) thinks Hiro is basically a claimed mafia. B) is willing to lynch some other guy who is NOT a claimed mafia in Toads eyes. That does not jive one bit. Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Toad then goes on to only softly push Hiropro. First adding on a convoluted reason for him to be scum, which is quickly shown to be incorrect, and then falling into softy urging posts like these: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that? On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa This from a guy who felt he had bagged a scum straight up. The real gist here is that Toad's tone does not follow any kind of cohesion. He's hot and cold and up and down on hiro, but always with a pushing towards lynch.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flopFirst Toad makes 3 posts that point him having a pretty null read on bugs, and certainly not a scum read: + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 01:10 Toadesstern wrote:
[EDIT: referring to bugs:)Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
On June 01 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. On June 01 2012 02:35 Toadesstern wrote:
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now. However, without mentioning him again, he now wants to lynch bugs. Not only that, but he's adding in bugs when he has already apparently found a 'claimed mafia' in Hiropro. Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Also, look at his reasoning: not knowing the cycle was 24 hours, and not posting. Yet those are the exact thing that Toad mentioned earlier, not as scummy though, but as null! So how do those things suddenly become the basis of a case to rival hiropro, someone he thinks is very likely scum. Straight up contradictions.
Point 3: The scum slipsLet me be clear that I have never before found what I consider to be a true 'scum-slip'. The word gets bandied about on this site, and can mean pretty much anything. What it really means though, is to be in possession of information that townies could not possibly have, and only mafia could have. Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. hmm, where's the scum-slip you ask? I missed it at first too, but it's very clearly there. Toad is absolutely 100% he will be around on Day 2. There is only 1 way, and I do mean 1 way, that Toad can be convinced he will live till Day 2. But maybe it was just a slip of the tongue, and he's not actually sure he'll survive the night.... Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p Except he does it again!! He confirms the scumslip. This is a guy who just recently was shot night 1 in WoF mini-mafia, and has been getting shot more and more by mafia. There is no reason at all he should be certain he'll survive the night. In fact, if he is town he should be expecting that he is one of the more likely shots. In fact, he even posts his prplhz case right before the deadline, as if he might get shot. But how then is he 100% certain he'll survive till Day 2. There are no vets, and no other way he could be certain he will survive. The only way to be certain is if he is scum.
Point 4: The prplhz caseI'm going to make this brief, as I feel there is already a body of evidence that shows Toads guilt without this. However Toads push on prplhz is indicative of a scum-push. Very often, when a scum player tries to push a townie, he does it by citing the wrong reasons. There are reasons to see prplhz as scummy, but NOT because of his defense of Navillus. The key is that prplhz defended Navillus several times, but then switched over and voted for him early on in the wagon(3rd vote). There is an argument to be made there that prplhz was scummy in doing that. Toad touches on that, but his focus is squarely on the fact that prplhz should not have found Navillus scummy in the first place. This is a competely backwards approach, one because prplhz was clear in his reasoning, and second because townies are defended all the time along the same lines prplhz was using. Toad is pushing prplhz for the wrong reason, something which scum do all the time. This is not a particularly strong point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Additionally, Toad has been buddying me all game, asking for activity without contributing himself and appealing to dead players. Add in the 4 points of my case, and you have a player who is almost assuredly mafia. Vote for Toad. In fact, I don't even mind if you vote in the voting thread too, as I'm fairly sure he is scum. ##Vote: Toadesstern
Going to break the answer down to your 4 parts:
Part 1: I thought Hiropro is a semi-vet. That's why I attacked him for the GF vote because I thought a vet would be smart enough to figure out that it's either RB or framer with all the talk d0 and I thought I caught him lying about why he voted for GF. Furthermore I would have considered a vet who really thinks that GF could be an issue to be more talkactive about what he found out BEFORE the end of deadline. That was basicly it. And yeah it collapsed the moment I was told hiro is not a vet. If you had told me "i wasn't sure it's between RB and Framer and therefore voted GF" I would have voted you as well.
About the confirmed... Give me one game in which I don't talk about confirmed people. That's an exaggeration I can't get rid of. I called VE confirmed mafia in LV and he flipped town lol.
Part 2:
I added WBG to the list because I thought the 24-hour thing IS something weird while the not talking part wasn't considering that half of the players had not started talking at that time
Part 3:
That's me referring to the deadline. As in "See you tomorrow and in I'll answer that 10 seconds short of the deadline with one big post". Also I got A LOT of criticism for mentioning I'm a n1 target in LV. Go read n1 of that game Rad. I thought I should just keep it neutral this time because people called me disruptive in LV for that reason.
Part 4:
Well and I simply disagree with part 4.
"Part 5:"
The buddying thing. I'm not buddying I'm joking around and ever since the Annul game I am joking around with people who have been in derpgames like that and I still find it funny that you called me most-likely-town that game. I'm "buddying" you in every game. I did the same in c9++ #2, I did the same in the PYP you coached. I was town in both...
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Basicly: Read PYP and LV (n1, especially wbg's answer ) and nothing you stands as a reason to think I am mafia unless.
The scumslip is obviously bullshit. As you pointed out. I said I'm going to make a big post and see you d2. I was referring to the post about Prplhz. That's why I said I don't people to talk about reads n1 when I saw Kurumi go at prplhz.
I was referring to my case on prplhz and that shows I am referring to the deadline when I'm saying "see you d2" and not to some other post that isn't even existing...
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On June 04 2012 08:11 Toadesstern wrote:Basicly: Read PYP and LV (n1, especially wbg's answer ) and nothing you mentioned stands as a reason to think I am mafia unless you consider the scumslip as something. The scumslip is obviously bullshit. As you pointed out. I said I'm going to make a big post and see you d2. I was referring to the post about Prplhz. That's why I said I don't people to talk about reads n1 when I saw Kurumi go at prplhz. I was referring to my case on prplhz and that shows I am referring to the deadline when I'm saying "see you d2" and not to some other post that isn't even existing...
EBWOP
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm going to respond to you Toad, but only once if I can help it. This is not a debate, and I have no intention of turning this into a back and forth between you and me. My accusation is not for you, it's for the rest of the players in the game. That being said your defense is weak.
+ Show Spoiler +Part 1: I thought Hiropro is a semi-vet. That's why I attacked him for the GF vote because I thought a vet would be smart enough to figure out that it's either RB or framer with all the talk d0 and I thought I caught him lying about why he voted for GF. Furthermore I would have considered a vet who really thinks that GF could be an issue to be more talkactive about what he found out BEFORE the end of deadline. That was basicly it. And yeah it collapsed the moment I was told hiro is not a vet. If you had told me "i wasn't sure it's between RB and Framer and therefore voted GF" I would have voted you as well.
About the confirmed... Give me one game in which I don't talk about confirmed people. That's an exaggeration I can't get rid of. I called VE confirmed mafia in LV and he flipped town lol.
You'll notice in my post I never once referred to the hiropro vs hiroprotagonist issue. That's because it has absolutely nothing to do with the way you acted. It had nothing to do with what you were doing, but rather how you were doing it. You thought hiro was scum, yet you did not attempt to bring up a single other thing from his filter to corroborate that theory. You treated hiro as a misguided townie, but then threw down your vote and called him 'claimed scum'. Despite having a strong scum read, you threw another name into the lynch candidate mix. All your actions at that point were scummy.
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether you thought Hiropro was hiroprotagonist.
+ Show Spoiler +Part 2:
I added WBG to the list because I thought the 24-hour thing IS something weird while the not talking part wasn't considering that half of the players had not started talking at that time
Yet your previous feeling on the 24 hour thing: I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now.
mentioned nothing about bugs being scummy. You're also trying to tell me right now that you didn't find his 'not talking' scummy, when you clearly indicated you found it scummy:
Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet
+ Show Spoiler +Part 3:
That's me referring to the deadline. As in "See you tomorrow and in I'll answer that 10 seconds short of the deadline with one big post". Also I got A LOT of criticism for mentioning I'm a n1 target in LV. Go read n1 of that game Rad. I thought I should just keep it neutral this time because people called me disruptive in LV for that reason.
I don't buy this, not for a second. That was you absolutely referring to Day 2, NOT the end of Night 1. It has nothing to do with you mentioning or not if you were a target. It has to do with you being sure that you would live to Day 2.
The rest is not worth responding to.
I strongly believe you to be scum.
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On June 04 2012 07:45 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:27 Toadesstern wrote:On June 04 2012 07:09 talismania wrote:On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
[...]
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out? This is almost exactly how I feel. Anyone who is not looking at the game through the lens of the d0 votes needs to do so. There's a couple of assumptions to get to mafia having framer that should be stated though: 1) HiroPro is town. Therefore scum did not vote 1-1-1 and likely voted 2-1-0. A big assumption I suppose but as I wrote d1 I can't imagine that if he were scum his scumbuddies would have let him vote GF. Maybe if he's scum with Risk.nuke, who brought up the 1-1-1 thing but that's the only scenario I can see it in. 2) No one claiming being roleblocked means that mafia don't have a roleblocker - the assumption implicit there is that mafia wouldn't use their roleblocker against themselves, knowing that using it on town would give away how the votes played out. Or maybe they didn't use it at all. Would a mafia roleblocker have to use their power? I'm really iffy on this assumption. It depends on if the scum team was smart enough to realize that using the roleblocker would immediately point to two people on the framer list. I feel like they would be but who knows. So - if there is a framer it's either toad + risk.nuke Radfield + prp I was actually leaning towards toad + radfield earlier because of how buddy-buddy toad acted towards him but now it's clear that is unlikely to be the case, unless they think they need to bus for some reason I guess. Toad and prp can't be together because of the strength of the case toad is making, with the same caveat as with toad and radfield. Radfield + prp is the "conspiracy theory" pair. To make that case you have to assume that radfield freely cast doubt on prp, even agreeing with prp being shot (although come to think of it I guess that if he was scum he would know that town didn't have a vig so scratch that), and then backed down later. To complete the conspiracy theory, add in zephirdd, whom rad and prp acted together to save by getting the navilus train rolling. The main problem I can't get past with this pair is prp's play to outright claim "Oh my vote didn't count, btw" Is that really a super-clever scum excuse? I mean (1) having that idea is borderline genius and (2) actually following through with it is incredibly ballsy. Why risk that when you could just lay low amongst the 6 RB voters? Toad + risk.nuke on the other hand has little to argue against it (there's not much to argue for it either I suppose - toad is as confusing and difficult to understand as he was to me pick your power. Risk-nuke has a lot less thread presence than he did that game but he hasn't really done much yet either). They haven't interacted much with each other. Toad has thrown out a few names, as has risk, but each other's have not come up I don't believe. I don't know who the third would be. I would add zephirdd again because toad said he didn't like the zephirdd lynch d1, but risk.nuke has come out in favor of such a lynch today. One of the other framer voters I guess. If assumption (2) above is wrong and it's 1-2-0 and there is a roleblocker and not a framer, then it's some pair out of sbrubbles, kurumi, zephirdd, and sloosh Which means it's unlikely to be sloosh and sbrubbles because of sloosh's hard pressure at the end of day one (unless that was just really forward-thinking play or something. It is interesting that sloosh hasn't continued to press sbrubbles day two. Acually a quick filter check shows that he's away this weekend so that explains that.). It's also unlikely to be kurumi and zephirdd because of kurumi's stance toward zephirdd. Any combination of the others is possible in my eyes. 1) You say you don't believe in the 1-1-1 unless risk is mafia. Later you say you think it's me + Risk ? 2) Prplhz's vote can be used for 1-1-1 as well, you considered him the alternative yet you say it has to be 2-1 either way? 3) You say my case on Prplhz is strong and therefore doubt I'd be bussing him bud at the same time doubt Rad would bus me? What's the difference that makes you think one is possible and the other one is not? 4) Prplhz playing using the "invalid vote" thing. You played PYP as well? You saw sent "counterclaim" risk & marv as mafia? You saw barundar counterclaim the medic as SK ? I'd say at least equally ballsy and as mentioned the reason I don't consider that an argument anymore lol 5) I am as confusing as in PYP? What did I flip in PYP again? 6) Yeah the third in that "mafiateam" (I'm making it in " " tags because I'm not mafia...) would be Zephirdd. Because frankly Zephirdd and I like each other so much. As seen when I did the case on prplhz. 1) if it's 1-1-1 then I doubt you're scum because of how involved you were in the d0 discussion and because you pushed hiropro so hard yesterday. So yes, if it's 1-1-1 I think risk.nuke could certainly be involved. But I don't buy that it is 1-1-1. 2) obviously anyone's vote can be used for 1-1-1 if it is that way, but again I don't think it is. 3) I say that you are making a strong case on prp and are therefore unlikely to be mafia with him. I say that radfield is making a case on you and is therefore unlikely to be mafia with you. Both are the same to me - I think you misread. 4) of course prp doing that is possible. Hence the paranoia of playing mafia, "the educated guessing game of epic proportions" or whatever tl calls it. I'm not ruling prp out by any means but at some point you have to favor the simplest explanation. 5) true, which is why I put that bit in the "there's not much arguing for toad and risk" section. 6) the third could be anyone in any of these scenarios really but you're right in that I hadn't really considered your interactions with zephirdd today relative to yesterday.
Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all?
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Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2...
Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1:
On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32
and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT.
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On June 04 2012 08:16 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:45 talismania wrote:On June 04 2012 07:27 Toadesstern wrote:On June 04 2012 07:09 talismania wrote:On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
[...]
From my vantage point:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
All of a sudden this looks very easy. Even if I am wrong about 2 scum being in the roleblocker camp, I think we can all agree that there is at least one. It's possible I am wrong about prp or talismania, but I doubt it right now. Both their filters look solid. So that means one of risk.nuke or Toad is very very likely scum in my opinion. In fact, it's very possible(even likely) that both are scum.
To me right now that scum feels like Toad. As I mentioned I haven't re-filtered him yet, but I've had a slight scum read on him all game. Risk.nuke I'm pretty null right now, but I got an 'ok for now' feeling from his filter. He's not putting in much effort, but he has content despite that.
Anyways, that's not a case on Toad by any means, but I wanted to write that out. Back to the grind.
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out? This is almost exactly how I feel. Anyone who is not looking at the game through the lens of the d0 votes needs to do so. There's a couple of assumptions to get to mafia having framer that should be stated though: 1) HiroPro is town. Therefore scum did not vote 1-1-1 and likely voted 2-1-0. A big assumption I suppose but as I wrote d1 I can't imagine that if he were scum his scumbuddies would have let him vote GF. Maybe if he's scum with Risk.nuke, who brought up the 1-1-1 thing but that's the only scenario I can see it in. 2) No one claiming being roleblocked means that mafia don't have a roleblocker - the assumption implicit there is that mafia wouldn't use their roleblocker against themselves, knowing that using it on town would give away how the votes played out. Or maybe they didn't use it at all. Would a mafia roleblocker have to use their power? I'm really iffy on this assumption. It depends on if the scum team was smart enough to realize that using the roleblocker would immediately point to two people on the framer list. I feel like they would be but who knows. So - if there is a framer it's either toad + risk.nuke Radfield + prp I was actually leaning towards toad + radfield earlier because of how buddy-buddy toad acted towards him but now it's clear that is unlikely to be the case, unless they think they need to bus for some reason I guess. Toad and prp can't be together because of the strength of the case toad is making, with the same caveat as with toad and radfield. Radfield + prp is the "conspiracy theory" pair. To make that case you have to assume that radfield freely cast doubt on prp, even agreeing with prp being shot (although come to think of it I guess that if he was scum he would know that town didn't have a vig so scratch that), and then backed down later. To complete the conspiracy theory, add in zephirdd, whom rad and prp acted together to save by getting the navilus train rolling. The main problem I can't get past with this pair is prp's play to outright claim "Oh my vote didn't count, btw" Is that really a super-clever scum excuse? I mean (1) having that idea is borderline genius and (2) actually following through with it is incredibly ballsy. Why risk that when you could just lay low amongst the 6 RB voters? Toad + risk.nuke on the other hand has little to argue against it (there's not much to argue for it either I suppose - toad is as confusing and difficult to understand as he was to me pick your power. Risk-nuke has a lot less thread presence than he did that game but he hasn't really done much yet either). They haven't interacted much with each other. Toad has thrown out a few names, as has risk, but each other's have not come up I don't believe. I don't know who the third would be. I would add zephirdd again because toad said he didn't like the zephirdd lynch d1, but risk.nuke has come out in favor of such a lynch today. One of the other framer voters I guess. If assumption (2) above is wrong and it's 1-2-0 and there is a roleblocker and not a framer, then it's some pair out of sbrubbles, kurumi, zephirdd, and sloosh Which means it's unlikely to be sloosh and sbrubbles because of sloosh's hard pressure at the end of day one (unless that was just really forward-thinking play or something. It is interesting that sloosh hasn't continued to press sbrubbles day two. Acually a quick filter check shows that he's away this weekend so that explains that.). It's also unlikely to be kurumi and zephirdd because of kurumi's stance toward zephirdd. Any combination of the others is possible in my eyes. 1) You say you don't believe in the 1-1-1 unless risk is mafia. Later you say you think it's me + Risk ? 2) Prplhz's vote can be used for 1-1-1 as well, you considered him the alternative yet you say it has to be 2-1 either way? 3) You say my case on Prplhz is strong and therefore doubt I'd be bussing him bud at the same time doubt Rad would bus me? What's the difference that makes you think one is possible and the other one is not? 4) Prplhz playing using the "invalid vote" thing. You played PYP as well? You saw sent "counterclaim" risk & marv as mafia? You saw barundar counterclaim the medic as SK ? I'd say at least equally ballsy and as mentioned the reason I don't consider that an argument anymore lol 5) I am as confusing as in PYP? What did I flip in PYP again? 6) Yeah the third in that "mafiateam" (I'm making it in " " tags because I'm not mafia...) would be Zephirdd. Because frankly Zephirdd and I like each other so much. As seen when I did the case on prplhz. 1) if it's 1-1-1 then I doubt you're scum because of how involved you were in the d0 discussion and because you pushed hiropro so hard yesterday. So yes, if it's 1-1-1 I think risk.nuke could certainly be involved. But I don't buy that it is 1-1-1. 2) obviously anyone's vote can be used for 1-1-1 if it is that way, but again I don't think it is. 3) I say that you are making a strong case on prp and are therefore unlikely to be mafia with him. I say that radfield is making a case on you and is therefore unlikely to be mafia with you. Both are the same to me - I think you misread. 4) of course prp doing that is possible. Hence the paranoia of playing mafia, "the educated guessing game of epic proportions" or whatever tl calls it. I'm not ruling prp out by any means but at some point you have to favor the simplest explanation. 5) true, which is why I put that bit in the "there's not much arguing for toad and risk" section. 6) the third could be anyone in any of these scenarios really but you're right in that I hadn't really considered your interactions with zephirdd today relative to yesterday. Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all?
Because you said some things that are not true. Should I ignore it and hope people see it themselves?
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[QUOTE]On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 03 2012 23:55 Kurumi wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him.[/QUOTE]
There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch, when in fact that was not the case at all.
Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline)
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EBWOP: My formatting is all screwed up.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him.
There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch), when in fact that was not the case at all.
Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline)
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT.
Allow me to remove the irrelevent parts of your post and leave the only relevant bit:
On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2...
OK, that's much easier to read. You are trying to tell me that when you said D2, you were actually referring to the end of night 1.... right....
On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
'once day 2 has started'
'once day 2 has started'
'once day 2 has started'
How does 'once day 2 has started', mean 'the end of night 1'.
I know it sucks when you caught in a scum-slip, but take solace in the fact that it was only the icing on the cake. I was leaning strong scum on you before I even found that.
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On June 04 2012 08:34 HiroPro wrote:EBWOP: My formatting is all screwed up.
Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch), when in fact that was not the case at all. Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives. ##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline)
I never included it in my own case.. I said what Prplhz said about WBG is a null because you could say the same thing about at least 5 other people.
I said the 24-hour thing however IS weird.
And that was what? 24 into the game with half the thread not posting? Yeah that's got to be a really strong post ...
On June 04 2012 08:35 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. Allow me to remove the irrelevent parts of your post and leave the only relevant bit: Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... OK, that's much easier to read. You are trying to tell me that when you said D2, you were actually referring to the end of night 1.... right.... Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' How does 'once day 2 has started', mean 'the end of night 1'. I know it sucks when you caught in a scum-slip, but take solace in the fact that it was only the icing on the cake. I was leaning strong scum on you before I even found that.
Because it's still referring to my post I did about prplhz? Because YOU will read it once d2 has started because I'm doing it right at the deadline. Wtf is this about. You even pointed at the post I did (the case on prplhz) AT THE DEADLINE and NOT on D2 and yet you keep assuming I am referrign to some not existing post on d2?
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fact is you got in here assuming I have to be mafia although he never checked my filter because everyone else was town according to you except for risk.
You went trough my filter searching for things like that not even thinking about what I meant by saying them and come up with a post that is referring to a post AT THE DEADLINE although I said after the deadline (like in 2 secs later...).
You're record on figuring me out is what so far? 0-4 or is it 0-5? You called me town in the first game we played together and I ended up being mafia, big deal but ever after that game you called me mafia EVERY SINGLE GAME we played together and yes, we played games in which I played town as well...
You've simply got to be kidding me. You said I am mafia d1 this game again, like you always do and since you have a townread on most other people you figured it's best to lynch into RB-voters because you said it was obvious RB wins while other people (hi there kurumi, wbg and prplhz) thought framer would obviously win. You're whole point is assuming that your 2 townreads are right and therefore risk and I have to be mafia and you went through my filter with that though, like in every other game since the Annul game...
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Incorrect. I went into your filter with an open mind, particularly focused on whether you were town or scum. Part of the reason I am good at this game is because I can set things aside and keep and open mind.
My record for finding out your alignment is irrelevant. Please show me the games you were town where I thought you were scum. Keeping in mind that in WoF I specifically stated I was null on you, and leaning scum on sandroba(2 members of a hydra).
Not to mention I am going to get better and better at reading you the more games we play together.
I also specifically noted that my case on you is NOT built on vote analysis, but built upon your actions irrespective of other players alignments.
I hope people have noticed that Toad has moved on from defending himself, to attacking me.
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Yes I am attacking you because I am mad at you for telling peolpe I scumslipped when I did no such thing.
I already gave all the reasoning there is to explain why nothing you said about me is alignment indicating and the scumslip just isn't a scumslip.
Here's a funny sidenote: I actually had "see you d2 if I survive" written in the preview box in those 2 comments you quoted
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2
and On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote: got ninja'ed About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
checked it and decided to just post "once d2 has started" without the "if I make it" or "if I survve" part because as mentioned wbg attacked me HEAVILY just 24hours (?) prior to that in my other game.
I already quoted the part but here is it again:
On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
[...]
You think something like that has no influence on how I post? I changed it to that neutral "see you d2" one ON PURPOSE not because I had information of wether or not I would do n1 but because I got a shitton of posts like the one wbg did just RECENTLY. Recently as in 24 hours prior to the post I made.
Yes I should have said "I'll post 10 secs prior to the deadline" instead of "on d2" but there is no post on d2 so obviously I am referring to the post I did on the DEADLINE when talking about my big post that I'm about to make. I also told you that this time I'm going to ninja you, which is just again another tell that I never intended to post it d2. How should I know how to ninja you when I was not talking about the deadline?
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Again, Read PYP and read n1 of LV....
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Did you read Navilus' first 5 posts in Resistance 2 that I linked you to yet Toadesstern?
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Also going to be now... it's 2:44 am I have to wake up tomorrow and I'm really mad because rad is telling people I'm mafia when imo it should be pretty obvious I am town...
Will be back in here tomorrow... just read the two games I told you (n1 one the 2nd one is enough, it's a big game) and if you still think anything Rad said is making me look scummy I can't talk back to that because everything he pointet out is perfectly explained in those 2 games. You need to read them to judge wether or not what I said a) makes sense b) is likely to be the truth.
I'm not making some bullshit up I am talking about VERY RECENT things that happened that made me change several things ON PURPOSE and I'm not only talking about the "scumslip".
If you don't read those games all there is for you is flipping a coing on wether or not I am really telling the truth. If you read those games you should easily see that it's the truth and it is no coincidence...
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I really hate when people just ignore my questions. I can only assume it's because the answer is "No" 'cause you probably wouldn't be reluctant to say "Yes" if that was the case and you very obviously saw my question.
I don't get how you can't read 5 short posts that I link you directly to but you have no quarrels expecting everybody else to read 1 game + 1 cycle when you're asking them to.
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Hey guys I'm back. skimmed through the thread but I grasped the idea.
First of all, I love Toad's AtE. I used that on Sleeper Cell II and we ended up in a draw(when it should have been an obvious scum win T_T). AtE = Appeal to Emotion
Different games are different; If Radfield finds reasons to push Toadesstern every game, he is right to push Toadesstern every game. However I disagree on the "scumslip": Saying "see you on day2" isn't indicative of alignment at all in my opinion. It's not a slip, it's not "knowing you will live". It's just saying it.
However, other points still stand: Toadesstern's cases aren't good. They fit the scumagenda. Saying HiroPro had "basically claimed mafia", the wbg case, etc.
I don't think Toad is the right lynch target right now though. Have you guys seen risk.nuke?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=76576
^his amazing filter.
1. Read it(it's short guys, you probably would read it faster than you could read Radfield's case on prplhz)
2. Search for anything that makes sense from a town perspective
3. Laugh at it
4. Vote him
In case it's not obvious, what you find in this filter is blatant sheeping, lack of substance and terrible logic for pushing a mislynch(which would be my lynch). Besides, his lack of activity is gigantic; Not only that, but he is not showing his overconfidence of his town self. I mean, he usually just does whatever the f* he wants, throws accusations at people and show confidence. Here he is sheeping people and pointing fingers at everyone(look at his hiro/sloosh/zephirdd post).
Lynch risk!
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Lol very late ebwop
"1. Read it(it's short guys, you probably would read it faster than you could read Radfield's case on Toadestern)" is how it should read.
Not that it matter anyway
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Toad please keep LV talk out of this thread, at least as long as you alive in that ongoing game.
I've skimmed most of the posts, but unable to post b/c I want to quote stuff and it's hard.
I'll have proper internets on the weekday so I'll be regular activity again.
Zephirdd only reason to lynch risk over Toad is if you definitively think risk is more likely to flip scum over Toad. Maybe I missed posts skimming but risk is quasi-lurker, which means for him to look more scummy is to basically say Toad is looking null / town. Can you do this? Show risk is more scummy?
I think talis mentioned that I stopped pushing Sbrubbles on the nonsense GF vote, which I think was part of Radfield's case against Toad. I need to refilter this properly tomorrow since I think he acknoweldges his mistake somewhere and a bunch of people who I think are town also think he looks ok so I gotta look again.
prplhz vs Kurumi (?) thing I skipped entirely and will reread tomorrow.
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sloosh, it's just that my general sentiment on Toads is that he isn't looking too far from his town-self. In fact, he looks... normal. There are many things that point to him being scum - just like there are many things that point to me, but these are wrong in my case.
I consider risk to be scummier because I know town risk. Heck, I just played with town risk on an ongoing game, and even tried to push against him(me as scum, him as town). I consider risk one of the easiest players to grasp a town read on. I do not have a town read on him here; And what he's been doing is way more anti-town than what Toad has done so far imo. Heck, at the very very least Toad made a case.
That's why I consider a risk.nuke lynch better than a Toadestern lynch right now.
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On June 04 2012 09:20 Radfield wrote:
[...]
I hope people have noticed that Toad has moved on from defending himself, to attacking me.
Actually I think it's more telling that toad HASN'T been attacking radfield. I mean, he's attacked rad's scumhunting abilities, but he hasn't said that he thinks rad is scum, or that rad is pushing a scum agenda, nor does it even seem like he has considered it. That's strange as hell if he's town.
toad,
what do you think Rad's alignment is? Why?
You think prp is scum. Who do you think the other two are?
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Meh, risk.nuke's filter is still so shallow that it's hard to analyze anything. What little he does have doesn't look very good, but I'm favoring the Toad lynch.
Toad has a clear agenda in hunting for mislynches. And Toad's responses have mostly been to the "alive on day 2 thing", which I don't really consider alignment-revealing, and frankly isn't something worth discussing further.
He still doesn't really say why he tried to push a case based almost solely on a game mechanic. And he sidesteps the issue of how he went from "oh be a team player" to "confirmed mafia" to "lynch between these people is fine" by saying that "confirmed" is just a quirk of speech, and not something he really means and also with the whole "hiro protagonist-HiroPro" confusion, but that was well after the changing opinions.
And Sbrubbles appears to have disappeared.
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On June 04 2012 09:44 prplhz wrote:
Did you read Navilus' first 5 posts in Resistance 2 that I linked you to yet Toadesstern? On June 04 2012 10:04 prplhz wrote:
I really hate when people just ignore my questions. I can only assume it's because the answer is "No" 'cause you probably wouldn't be reluctant to say "Yes" if that was the case and you very obviously saw my question.
I don't get how you can't read 5 short posts that I link you directly to but you have no quarrels expecting everybody else to read 1 game + 1 cycle when you're asking them to.
Yes I read them. Yes I can see where you're comming from when talking about the excuse which makes your reasoning to vote him a little less weak and understandable. I still find the reasoning to call him town in the first place weird though.
On June 04 2012 13:51 HiroPro wrote:
Meh, risk.nuke's filter is still so shallow that it's hard to analyze anything. What little he does have doesn't look very good, but I'm favoring the Toad lynch.
Toad has a clear agenda in hunting for mislynches. And Toad's responses have mostly been to the "alive on day 2 thing", which I don't really consider alignment-revealing, and frankly isn't something worth discussing further.
He still doesn't really say why he tried to push a case based almost solely on a game mechanic. And he sidesteps the issue of how he went from "oh be a team player" to "confirmed mafia" to "lynch between these people is fine" by saying that "confirmed" is just a quirk of speech, and not something he really means and also with the whole "hiro protagonist-HiroPro" confusion, but that was well after the changing opinions.
And Sbrubbles appears to have disappeared.
I'm talkging about that because Radfield keeps mentioning that. I already explained everything else about the case.
I explained that I thought you are a vet and I said if someone else (a vet) would have told me they didn't realize it's between RB and Framer I would have pushed them for ly as well. The moment I realized you're not the guy I thought you are I immediatly stopped pushing you and said I'm taking back what I said because it was built on the assumption that you are a vet and should know better than that. So basicly I thought I caught you lying about your vote with the assumption that you're a vet and I saw no reason to lie about your vote as a townie. I already explained this. There should be no need to post this twice although I just did it. I explained everything else as well.
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On June 04 2012 12:59 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 09:20 Radfield wrote:
[...]
I hope people have noticed that Toad has moved on from defending himself, to attacking me. Actually I think it's more telling that toad HASN'T been attacking radfield. I mean, he's attacked rad's scumhunting abilities, but he hasn't said that he thinks rad is scum, or that rad is pushing a scum agenda, nor does it even seem like he has considered it. That's strange as hell if he's town. toad, what do you think Rad's alignment is? Why? You think prp is scum. Who do you think the other two are?
Sorry I'm not omgusing like crazy. Yes I consider Rad to be town right now. I also considered Kurumi to be town. Reason being he's activly pushing things, asking questions and doing something in general although he is wrong like he always is the first couple of days... He didn't do that in AC when he was mafia until he claimed. Yes I am questioning myself right now because of this case and how I already explained why it's not showing the updated truth about me (I mentioned PYP and LV enough by now, didn't I ?...) and instead trying to paint a picture about what I should be like considering my play in WoF were I / my hydra got shot n1 as town although I'd definitely say Sandroba got shot for being Sandroba and I probably never was the prime target.
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I never proposed a team like that, and I do not propose scum teams as a rule. I always play one scum player at a time.
Not to mention, I stated clearly that I do not think Zephirdd Is scum at this moment. You also never showed me all the games you were town that I thought you were scum. I bring this up because you were trying to discredit my scumhunting based on those games, yet those games do not exist.
Also, as I mentioned before, the issue with your actions regarding Hiropro had nothing to do with whether you thought he was hiroprotagonist. Even if he WAS hiroprotagonist, you actions up to and including the point where you voted him were very inconsistent and scummy. Something you have tried to wash under the bridge by pointing to your later confusion.
On June 04 2012 12:43 slOosh wrote:
I think talis mentioned that I stopped pushing Sbrubbles on the nonsense GF vote, which I think was part of Radfield's case against Toad. I need to refilter this properly tomorrow since I think he acknoweldges his mistake somewhere and a bunch of people who I think are town also think he looks ok so I gotta look again.
What are you referring to? What is Sbrubbles 'nonsense GF vote'?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Also, who said anything about Kurumi being Town....
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On June 04 2012 19:29 Radfield wrote:
Also, who said anything about Kurumi being Town....
I think he is saying that there must be scum in the vet list
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On June 04 2012 19:43 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 19:29 Radfield wrote:
Also, who said anything about Kurumi being Town....
I think he is saying that there must be scum in the vet list
exactly...
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Hey guys, I'm here. Weekend was a bit crazy for me. Lemme comment on the current topics:
On prplhz's case, I dissagree that his argument, on making sure mafia knew they were getting roleblocker so that we'd be sure of what they have, was scummy. I still think it is wrong, but I saw merit in Rad's case for it.
Prplhz posting D1 (pre-Nav switch) was null to me (he pressured wbg based on meta and voted for me without much of an argument). Not the best way to conduct discussion by far, but it didn't feel like he was actively trying to mislead.
I do think his Nav switch was funky though. His argument boils down to "I want a lynch. I didn't want to before because the last game he lurked, came back saying he was sorry and was town. Now he doesn't look like he's sorry".
+ Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus
Thinking on Toad, I agree with most of Rad's case. It was strange him suddenly calling wbg scum D1 (without an explanation, after treating him as null) and that it was odd for him to be focusing so much on the fact that prplhz defended Nav. I don't see "see you D2" as a scumslip.
Right now I'm leaning more scum on Toad than on prplhz, but, that said, I think risk.nuke is our best lynch for today:
1) His D1 is comprised of accusing a total of 4 people, without explanations,
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 02:54 risk.nuke wrote:
Dearest Kurumi, I am Mr. Lovett. lets make some Radpie.
2) Followed by him pushing Zeph during N1. This smells of a scum push because 1) his reasons aren't clear (he poses the Zeph lynch as both an information lynch and a scum lynch) and 2) uses the mafia kill, which is a minefield of wifom, as his primary argument (using it as an additional argument is doable, but this is not the case), which, actually, is the only argument he chooses to discuss.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
Also, @Radfield,
On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out?
I mentioned he preferred framer to roleblocker, not to godfather.
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@Radfield Was LotR mafia really the last game that you played scum? I also want to say that I tentatively don't buy your case on Toadesstern and that's I'm very nervous about that. I think that people like you and syllogism and others are able to easily convince me of all the things you think when you are town but not when you are scum.
I also want you to answer my question from yesterday, why did you think that it was better that I was shot over risk.nuke? Why did you think, right before the deadline, that wherebugsgo wasn't looking good?
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Point Number 1: the attack on Hiropro
This is the only thing I actually find a little scummy but I think Toadesstern replied to it alright. His answer is confusing as hell but it doesn't seem scummy enough to warrant a lynch at all.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flop
Townies flip flop all the time. Scum Toadesstern had absolutely no incentive for flop flopping here. Why would a scum take something, call it null, then later bring that very same thing up again and call it scummy when it was pretty clear that wherebugsgo wasn't going to get lynched anyway? It's a high-risk-zero-gain maneuver and it makes no sense from scum perspective.
Point 3: The scum slips
I don't buy this. Toadesstern even posted at 10:59 KST, one minute before deadline and he provided a huge convoluted reason. His defense is shows that he thought about what he wrote in his own characteristic somewhat egocentric way. It seems too complex for scum to think this up so I'm going to say that this looks like a town tell to me after his response.
Point 4: The prplhz case
Having a really hard time to be objective here because it's about me and I suck at being objective. I think the case was horrible but I always think that about cases on me. I just don't see why scum Toadesstern would stay up until 3AM German time to write a horrible case on me when he could just not do that, there was no heat on him, the only heat there was in the thread was all on me, ideal situation for scum. He went to bed 5 minutes after he posted it. This looks kind of townie to me.
At the danger of looking stupid later, I tentatively reject your case on Toadesstern.
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I find it funny that the thing that made Radfield's case strong for me is the "see you d2" slip and many people dismiss it as something normal.
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@prplhz, who do you think we should lynch today?
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On June 04 2012 22:28 Sbrubbles wrote:
@prplhz, who do you think we should lynch today?
Well, with Radfield it's almost like either we lynch him or we do what he says. I don't understand how he can say that he wouldn't be opposed to a vigilante shooting me over risk.nuke day1 because vigilantes on day1 shoot to take out trash. They don't shoot into active contributing people. It's pretty clear (and common knowledge I should think) that anybody should prefer having me around at LYLO as opposed to a guy who posted as poorly as risk.nuke. Radfield even says that he can get a clear read on risk.nuke, how can he get a clear read on somebody who is barely posting? Why can't he get a clear read on me when he's had that in the last few games we played together?
That said, I don't think Radfield looks too much like he did in LotR mafia (where he was scum) and more like he did in more recent town games (that's why I want him to post a more recent scum game so I can see if he started playing differently). I have other scum reads but I really want to talk to Radfield first even though I know I'm cutting time short here.
I also think that risk.nuke is on to something when he said that shooting wherebugsgo was about wherebugsgo's reads. If there isn't a medic then it's 100% sure that Radfield is scum 'cause there's no way in hell that scum would shoot wherebugsgo over Radfield. If there is a medic, then it's still a somewhat risky move to shoot wherebugsgo when instead they could have tried to bluesnipe (but maybe that's what they were doing I just thought right now). wherebugsgo wanted to lynch Navilus, risk.nuke, Toadesstern, and Kurumi and then he wanted to look into Navilus' middle voters; prplhz, Toadesstern, talismania, slOosh. There's something about that or else I don't see why scum would shoot wherebugsgo.
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Purplehaze, the question was simple. WHO should be lynched? Hint hint risk.nuke
also, its not "follow or lynch" with Radfield. This is scum mentality. Lynching risk.nuke is a perfect example that you won't follow Radfield and won't lynch him either.
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Yea I know it was a simple question and I know I didn't answer it straight up. I didn't ignore it though and I told him exactly why I wasn't answering it straight up. I also never said in my post that I wanted to lynch risk.nuke, I very much kept my scum reads to myself. I might have said straight up (and not hinted) that I think it would be dumb to shoot me over risk.nuke but anybody in this thread could say that (with "me" referring to themselves).
Yes, it's pretty much follow or lynch with Radfield. He's clearly the best player in this game and if I think he's town then it would be pretty dumb not to do what he says, while if I don't think he's town then it would be pretty dumb not to lynch him.
But as should be very obvious, follow or lynch isn't always that simple and I'm not treating it as if it was that simple. You can probably see that I'm struggling a bit with this because I don't really want to do either thing. Maybe I just need more information, which is why I am asking for this information.
Why do you think that Radfield is town Zephirdd? I asked you why you thought that Radfield and Kurumi were the two primary mayor candidates earlier but you never answered that, can you answer that question now?
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Oh I missed that.
radfield is obviously having tons of presence. Kurumi because of the day0: he led the framer voters and made a somewhat good case(at the time) on radfield, which makes me think he is a secondary candidate. He is also a veteran.
I think he is town because lately I have this conspiracy theory where he is moving town as he wishes to end up killing everyone at once. And this feeling is the feeling I get whenever radfield is town.
I am not 100 per cent convinced on toad being scum and I think risk lynch is a better lynch right now though, so thats why I dont follow him. Its quite simple really.
also you are allowed to say "Im not sure on who to lynch right now" just give us an straight answer --'
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On June 04 2012 23:05 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 22:28 Sbrubbles wrote:
@prplhz, who do you think we should lynch today? Well, with Radfield it's almost like either we lynch him or we do what he says. I don't understand how he can say that he wouldn't be opposed to a vigilante shooting me over risk.nuke day1 because vigilantes on day1 shoot to take out trash. They don't shoot into active contributing people. It's pretty clear (and common knowledge I should think) that anybody should prefer having me around at LYLO as opposed to a guy who posted as poorly as risk.nuke. Radfield even says that he can get a clear read on risk.nuke, how can he get a clear read on somebody who is barely posting? Why can't he get a clear read on me when he's had that in the last few games we played together? That said, I don't think Radfield looks too much like he did in LotR mafia (where he was scum) and more like he did in more recent town games (that's why I want him to post a more recent scum game so I can see if he started playing differently). I have other scum reads but I really want to talk to Radfield first even though I know I'm cutting time short here. I also think that risk.nuke is on to something when he said that shooting wherebugsgo was about wherebugsgo's reads. If there isn't a medic then it's 100% sure that Radfield is scum 'cause there's no way in hell that scum would shoot wherebugsgo over Radfield. If there is a medic, then it's still a somewhat risky move to shoot wherebugsgo when instead they could have tried to bluesnipe (but maybe that's what they were doing I just thought right now). wherebugsgo wanted to lynch Navilus, risk.nuke, Toadesstern, and Kurumi and then he wanted to look into Navilus' middle voters; prplhz, Toadesstern, talismania, slOosh. There's something about that or else I don't see why scum would shoot wherebugsgo.
+ Show Spoiler +prplhz is purple haze? Mind = blown
While I do agree scum would usually shoot Rad over wbg, we could have any number of explanations, including: we have a medic, wbg was right about someone, nobody was right on their strongest reads (Rad included), Rad is scum or scum shot suboptimally. I disagree that wbg was shot over his reads, because, even if he was right, he wasn't being actively pushing any one of them (and there were a lot as you pointed out). Pushing the idea that wbg was right in order to attack Zephirdd (without an actual case) is the main reason why I think risk's scum.
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Lets just assume we don't have a medic instead of using that as an excuse to justify scum-kills. If any of you were scum, would you give town a medic? That's like sabotaging for yourself so can we please assume the scum did not sabotage for themself and did not give us a medic.
Radfield, since you've ignored my post. Why do you think they killed wbg?
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Prplhz, my most recent two scum games were Arkham City 2, and Couples Retreat. Lotr was before that.
I really shouldn't have posted that I thought a shot on you was a good idea, and never would have if you hadn't explicitly asked. There were a few things though that were making you think you were scum right then. As I mentioned before, I actually had you written down as PROB TOWN in my notes. Pretty sure it was a combo of a) your vote on navillus after defending him, b) voting majority +1 when the obvious vote was lynch lock(majority +1 would be quite mafia favoured given that we had little focus at the end of day 1) and c) the fact that it seemed you were overconfident Kurumi had no gun.
All that being said, once I filter you again yesterday I felt you were fairly strongly town aligned.
@Sbrubbles, you're right, I misread when filtering. Not sure how that happened.
On June 04 2012 21:13 Kurumi wrote:
I find it funny that the thing that made Radfield's case strong for me is the "see you d2" slip and many people dismiss it as something normal.
Thank you. I agree it is the strongest part, and am a bit baffled that people think townies commonly refer to the end of night 1 as day 2. Or that they state with confidence they will be around on day 2. It simply DOES NOT HAPPEN.
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risk, If I was scum, Medic/Tracker would be a reasonable combo if I believe the town is giving Roleblocker to the scum team. Both are roleblock-able, while 1shot cop isn't, Innocent Child isn't, 2-shot vigi is too unpredictable to consider(may be good for scum, but may be scum's death sentence depending on who gets the role).
Given day0 context, it's reasonable to believe Roleblocker would win.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
Lets just assume we don't have a medic instead of using that as an excuse to justify scum-kills. If any of you were scum, would you give town a medic? That's like sabotaging for yourself so can we please assume the scum did not sabotage for themself and did not give us a medic.
Radfield, since you've ignored my post. Why do you think they killed wbg?
How did I ignore your post? Which post are you even talking about, please show me.
I'm not really interested in why bugs died. He's a good enough player that him getting shot N1 is fairly irrelevant. He's also the kind of player who has weak D1 reads, and then get startlingly accurate as the game goes on(as long as he doesn't get sidetracked).
I also don't think scum realized medic was the strongest role we could have. On the surface it looks weak, as most medics miss, and it can't confirm townies or catch scum. Especially if they think they were getting roleblocker, then medic might seem like the least of the evils.
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later.
Your resistance to lynching Toad is noted. Please state specifically which parts of my case you find strong or weak.
Also, who is your alternative, still Zeph based off of WBG's accusations?
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The whole "WBG was suspicious of Zephirdd and that's why he was shot" isn't something I believe. WBG only ever mentions Zephirdd once "I think Zephirdd is the only lynch with enough momentum to make it to deadline, unless we can get a switch to someone like navillus or risk.", and even then he prefers two other candidates to lynch. WBG is one of the strongest players in this game - it's not that surprising that he would get shot n1. And honestly we have no good way of finding out why he died - maybe he died because mafia thought he was blue for some reason. I'd prefer to focus on what alive people are actually posting.
For me, the lynch is between Toad and risk.nuke. Zephirdd's recent posting has been a lot better. While I think the case against Toad is strong, he has been responding in a mostly townie manner. Meanwhile, risk is walking around not giving proper reasoning or anything really.
I think I'll go through some filters during my lunch break.
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Alright - I've caught up on the thread.
@Radfield - the "nonsense GF vote" refers to when several players attacked HiroPro for his GF vote but none could properly procure (in my opinion) a decent explanation as why it was scummy. That said, many of my town reads find Sbrubbles ok and right now there is the more pressing matter of consolidating today's lynch.
Before that I want to preface my vote by saying that there are several players who seem keen on chasing red herrings.
Stuff like "the game must be balanced in terms of vets", "why did mafia shoot WBG", "what roles would scum give town" are all that. Not because they are illegitimate discussion points (except the first one I think that's total rubbish), but there is a more pressing matter at hand which is deciding today's lynch and these three questions really do very little to nothing to determine which is the best candidate for the lynch, and serve as distractions that cripple town's focus.
I find myself agreeing strongly with Radfield's read on Toadesstern, more so because of the way Toad responded to his case. As talismania pointed out, he doesn't actually consider Radfield as possible scum. He defends himself not by showing why the case's points are flawed, but rather throwing out discussion points such as balance
On June 04 2012 17:18 Toadesstern wrote:
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought.
as well as focusing upon the "scumslip". Radfield said himself that his case isn't built up on standalone points but that they all together suggest a pattern rather than coincidences. Yet he is treating the case as if it was some runaway bandwagon caused by someone finding a "scumslip" and focusing all his attention on this point, despite people actually thinking the opposite (compelled by the other points of the case / his response to it rather than the "scumslip")
On June 04 2012 08:16 talismania wrote:
Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all? On June 04 2012 08:32 HiroPro wrote:
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch, when in fact that was not the case at all.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline)
I think we got something solid here:
##Vote: Toadesstern
P.s. I also think risk.nuke is scum and a great D3 lynch candidate. The reason why I support a Toad lynch over risk is because the case is stronger.
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EBWOP: "preface my vote" should read "I want to say something before I talk about my vote" rather than "I want to say something as an introduction to my vote". Poor word choice here.
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On June 05 2012 02:12 slOosh wrote:Alright - I've caught up on the thread. @Radfield - the "nonsense GF vote" refers to when several players attacked HiroPro for his GF vote but none could properly procure (in my opinion) a decent explanation as why it was scummy. That said, many of my town reads find Sbrubbles ok and right now there is the more pressing matter of consolidating today's lynch. Before that I want to preface my vote by saying that there are several players who seem keen on chasing red herrings. Stuff like "the game must be balanced in terms of vets", "why did mafia shoot WBG", "what roles would scum give town" are all that. Not because they are illegitimate discussion points (except the first one I think that's total rubbish), but there is a more pressing matter at hand which is deciding today's lynch and these three questions really do very little to nothing to determine which is the best candidate for the lynch, and serve as distractions that cripple town's focus. I find myself agreeing strongly with Radfield's read on Toadesstern, more so because of the way Toad responded to his case. As talismania pointed out, he doesn't actually consider Radfield as possible scum. He defends himself not by showing why the case's points are flawed, but rather throwing out discussion points such as balance Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 17:18 Toadesstern wrote:
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought. as well as focusing upon the "scumslip". Radfield said himself that his case isn't built up on standalone points but that they all together suggest a pattern rather than coincidences. Yet he is treating the case as if it was some runaway bandwagon caused by someone finding a "scumslip" and focusing all his attention on this point, despite people actually thinking the opposite (compelled by the other points of the case / his response to it rather than the "scumslip") Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:16 talismania wrote:
Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all? Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:32 HiroPro wrote:
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch, when in fact that was not the case at all.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I think we got something solid here: ##Vote: ToadessternP.s. I also think risk.nuke is scum and a great D3 lynch candidate. The reason why I support a Toad lynch over risk is because the case is stronger.
So summary: I am scum because instead of defending myself from Rad (which I did and you apparently either haven't read it or ignored it) instead of attacking him and for being defensive when talis asked me about something rather than head on attacking someone.
Nice logic. I think you need to lynch everyone in the game.
Just in case you actually skipped the posts for some reason:
+ Show Spoiler [#1, in general] +On June 04 2012 07:57 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:27 Radfield wrote:Why is Toad scum. Or rather, why do I think Toad is scum. This may be slightly long winded, and it certainly won't be concise. Toad is an active player as scum, and has fooled me twice before because of that. There is no clear and decisive scum agenda Toad is pushing, and there is no one thing that makes him scum(though I did find my first ever real-live damning scumslip). Instead what I have is a body of evidence that shows Toad is not playing with Town goals in mind. He is playing in an effort to lead mislynches, and with a goal of keeping town moving in the wrong direction. I find very little scummy in Toad's Day 0 play. With lots to contribute and lots to discuss it is extremely easy for an active scum player(like Toad) to blend in on Day 0. Apart from the fact that he begins to buddy me very early on, I see little that leads me to think he is scum in the first 24 hours. Day 1 however is a very different story. I'd like to talk about 4 main points. First, the pushing of Hiropro. Second, the WBG flip flop(which has been discussed, but not adequately). Third, and most damning, the double scum slip. Fourth and lastly, the case on Prplhz. There are also several additional small isolated issues which I will mention. Please remember that none of these points by themselves indicate that Toad is scum. But taken as an entire body of evidence they amount to a damning case against a very likely scum player. I'd also like to mention that this case is NOT based on my previous analysis of Framer/Roleblocker/GF votes. That was an exercise to narrow down my focus, NOT the basis of a case. However I am confident that I was correct in my assessment.
Point Number 1: the attack on HiroproWhat I'd like to represent is that Toad attempts to push a lynch onto Hiro very strongly. A lynch not based on whether or not Hiro is scummy, but rather based solely on the fact that Hiro voted GF. Additionally, Toad states strongly and ephatically that Hiro is scum.... and then waffles away and gives alternate targets. Let me say that again, he is almost sure that hiro is scum, going so far as to say "Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia", but then offers up other lynch options. What!? If you think a guy is for sure scum, and has slipped hard, you don't just offer up other options. Also, witness the tone: First, incredulity and confusion, but no accusation: On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf? Second: Weirdness and oddness, with some discussion about why you should stick to the plans. Again, no hint of a strong accusation here. An accusation perhaps of not being a team player, even equating his play to a townie from a different game, but both those things actually soft accuse Hiropro of being Town, just not a team player. On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. Next post and several hours later Toad drops down his vote without further discussion. No additional points raised, but we've gone from gentle admonition to wanting him to hang. He follows it up with this post which is a giant contradiction. A) thinks Hiro is basically a claimed mafia. B) is willing to lynch some other guy who is NOT a claimed mafia in Toads eyes. That does not jive one bit. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Toad then goes on to only softly push Hiropro. First adding on a convoluted reason for him to be scum, which is quickly shown to be incorrect, and then falling into softy urging posts like these: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that? On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa This from a guy who felt he had bagged a scum straight up. The real gist here is that Toad's tone does not follow any kind of cohesion. He's hot and cold and up and down on hiro, but always with a pushing towards lynch.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flopFirst Toad makes 3 posts that point him having a pretty null read on bugs, and certainly not a scum read: + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 01:10 Toadesstern wrote:
[EDIT: referring to bugs:)Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
On June 01 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. On June 01 2012 02:35 Toadesstern wrote:
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now. However, without mentioning him again, he now wants to lynch bugs. Not only that, but he's adding in bugs when he has already apparently found a 'claimed mafia' in Hiropro. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Also, look at his reasoning: not knowing the cycle was 24 hours, and not posting. Yet those are the exact thing that Toad mentioned earlier, not as scummy though, but as null! So how do those things suddenly become the basis of a case to rival hiropro, someone he thinks is very likely scum. Straight up contradictions.
Point 3: The scum slipsLet me be clear that I have never before found what I consider to be a true 'scum-slip'. The word gets bandied about on this site, and can mean pretty much anything. What it really means though, is to be in possession of information that townies could not possibly have, and only mafia could have. On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. hmm, where's the scum-slip you ask? I missed it at first too, but it's very clearly there. Toad is absolutely 100% he will be around on Day 2. There is only 1 way, and I do mean 1 way, that Toad can be convinced he will live till Day 2. But maybe it was just a slip of the tongue, and he's not actually sure he'll survive the night.... On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p Except he does it again!! He confirms the scumslip. This is a guy who just recently was shot night 1 in WoF mini-mafia, and has been getting shot more and more by mafia. There is no reason at all he should be certain he'll survive the night. In fact, if he is town he should be expecting that he is one of the more likely shots. In fact, he even posts his prplhz case right before the deadline, as if he might get shot. But how then is he 100% certain he'll survive till Day 2. There are no vets, and no other way he could be certain he will survive. The only way to be certain is if he is scum.
Point 4: The prplhz caseI'm going to make this brief, as I feel there is already a body of evidence that shows Toads guilt without this. However Toads push on prplhz is indicative of a scum-push. Very often, when a scum player tries to push a townie, he does it by citing the wrong reasons. There are reasons to see prplhz as scummy, but NOT because of his defense of Navillus. The key is that prplhz defended Navillus several times, but then switched over and voted for him early on in the wagon(3rd vote). There is an argument to be made there that prplhz was scummy in doing that. Toad touches on that, but his focus is squarely on the fact that prplhz should not have found Navillus scummy in the first place. This is a competely backwards approach, one because prplhz was clear in his reasoning, and second because townies are defended all the time along the same lines prplhz was using. Toad is pushing prplhz for the wrong reason, something which scum do all the time. This is not a particularly strong point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Additionally, Toad has been buddying me all game, asking for activity without contributing himself and appealing to dead players. Add in the 4 points of my case, and you have a player who is almost assuredly mafia. Vote for Toad. In fact, I don't even mind if you vote in the voting thread too, as I'm fairly sure he is scum. ##Vote: Toadesstern Going to break the answer down to your 4 parts:
Part 1: I thought Hiropro is a semi-vet. That's why I attacked him for the GF vote because I thought a vet would be smart enough to figure out that it's either RB or framer with all the talk d0 and I thought I caught him lying about why he voted for GF. Furthermore I would have considered a vet who really thinks that GF could be an issue to be more talkactive about what he found out BEFORE the end of deadline. That was basicly it. And yeah it collapsed the moment I was told hiro is not a vet. If you had told me "i wasn't sure it's between RB and Framer and therefore voted GF" I would have voted you as well. About the confirmed... Give me one game in which I don't talk about confirmed people. That's an exaggeration I can't get rid of. I called VE confirmed mafia in LV and he flipped town lol.
Part 2:I added WBG to the list because I thought the 24-hour thing IS something weird while the not talking part wasn't considering that half of the players had not started talking at that time
Part 3:That's me referring to the deadline. As in "See you tomorrow and in I'll answer that 10 seconds short of the deadline with one big post". Also I got A LOT of criticism for mentioning I'm a n1 target in LV. Go read n1 of that game Rad. I thought I should just keep it neutral this time because people called me disruptive in LV for that reason.
Part 4:Well and I simply disagree with part 4.
"Part 5:"The buddying thing. I'm not buddying I'm joking around and ever since the Annul game I am joking around with people who have been in derpgames like that and I still find it funny that you called me most-likely-town that game. I'm "buddying" you in every game. I did the same in c9++ #2, I did the same in the PYP you coached. I was town in both...
+ Show Spoiler [#2, about the "scumslip"] +On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT.
+ Show Spoiler [#3, about the wbg stuff and the "…] +On June 04 2012 08:47 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:34 HiroPro wrote:EBWOP: My formatting is all screwed up.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch), when in fact that was not the case at all. Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives. ##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I never included it in my own case.. I said what Prplhz said about WBG is a null because you could say the same thing about at least 5 other people. I said the 24-hour thing however IS weird. And that was what? 24 into the game with half the thread not posting? Yeah that's got to be a really strong post ... Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:35 Radfield wrote:On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. Allow me to remove the irrelevent parts of your post and leave the only relevant bit: On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... OK, that's much easier to read. You are trying to tell me that when you said D2, you were actually referring to the end of night 1.... right.... On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' How does 'once day 2 has started', mean 'the end of night 1'. I know it sucks when you caught in a scum-slip, but take solace in the fact that it was only the icing on the cake. I was leaning strong scum on you before I even found that. Because it's still referring to my post I did about prplhz? Because YOU will read it once d2 has started because I'm doing it right at the deadline. Wtf is this about. You even pointed at the post I did (the case on prplhz) AT THE DEADLINE and NOT on D2 and yet you keep assuming I am referrign to some not existing post on d2?
+ Show Spoiler [#4, why I changed my "style"…] +On June 04 2012 09:41 Toadesstern wrote:Yes I am attacking you because I am mad at you for telling peolpe I scumslipped when I did no such thing. I already gave all the reasoning there is to explain why nothing you said about me is alignment indicating and the scumslip just isn't a scumslip. Here's a funny sidenote: I actually had "see you d2 if I survive" written in the preview box in those 2 comments you quoted + Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2
and On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote: got ninja'ed About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. checked it and decided to just post "once d2 has started" without the "if I make it" or "if I survve" part because as mentioned wbg attacked me HEAVILY just 24hours (?) prior to that in my other game. I already quoted the part but here is it again: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
[...] You think something like that has no influence on how I post? I changed it to that neutral "see you d2" one ON PURPOSE not because I had information of wether or not I would do n1 but because I got a shitton of posts like the one wbg did just RECENTLY. Recently as in 24 hours prior to the post I made. Yes I should have said "I'll post 10 secs prior to the deadline" instead of "on d2" but there is no post on d2 so obviously I am referring to the post I did on the DEADLINE when talking about my big post that I'm about to make. I also told you that this time I'm going to ninja you, which is just again another tell that I never intended to post it d2. How should I know how to ninja you when I was not talking about the deadline?
Why are you telling me I haven't answered those issues? I answered every single one of them
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Toad, what do you think of risk.nuke so far?
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a null and I can't really judge him because he hasn't posted yet...
The fact that he doesn't want to lynch me is nice though :3
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On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later.
On June 05 2012 03:05 Toadesstern wrote:
a null and I can't really judge him because he hasn't posted yet...
The fact that he doesn't want to lynch me is nice though :3
Hmmmmmmmmm.
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do you have a particularly on risk either way based on something he did so far? I doubt it...
I have him put down as a possibility for mafia slot #2 but I can't tell so far, because again he hasn't posted.
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On June 05 2012 03:16 Toadesstern wrote:
do you have a particularly good read on risk either way based on something he did so far? I doubt it...
I have him put down as a possibility for mafia slot #2 but I can't tell so far, because again he hasn't posted.
EBWOP
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Okay I'm done with risk.nuke.
The case on him will be extremely simple. The guy has not shown any interest in this game and while he can, at least superficially, be a bit lazy sometimes (see Death Factory Mafia 2 and Space Station Mafia), he is never this disinterested.
His last post just pushed me over the edge.
On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
[weird stuff]
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later.
What the hell, he will become easier later on? Toadesstern has a 5 page filter. That's 20% of the posts in a 12 player game. How the hell can't risk.nuke have a read on Toadesstern yet still be confident that he will become easier to figure out later on? I think he's just saying random stuff and not reading the thread at all.
I also don't think that Toadesstern is scum and I think that risk.nuke is the most realistic alternative today.
Done with it. He's shown no sign of actually wanting to step his game up so I don't want him around tomorrow.
##Vote risk.nuke
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I am fine with either a toad or risk.nuke lynch. That said I prefer toad and will be voting for him unless majority is in doubt again.
Maybe it's because I'm tunneled a bit on toad but I do find it interesting though that as soon as he was coming under a lot of pressure the risk.nuke thing just popped up. There were a couple posts a few pages back that were like "yeah toad is scummy but let's lynch risk!"
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On June 05 2012 02:48 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 02:12 slOosh wrote:Alright - I've caught up on the thread. @Radfield - the "nonsense GF vote" refers to when several players attacked HiroPro for his GF vote but none could properly procure (in my opinion) a decent explanation as why it was scummy. That said, many of my town reads find Sbrubbles ok and right now there is the more pressing matter of consolidating today's lynch. Before that I want to preface my vote by saying that there are several players who seem keen on chasing red herrings. Stuff like "the game must be balanced in terms of vets", "why did mafia shoot WBG", "what roles would scum give town" are all that. Not because they are illegitimate discussion points (except the first one I think that's total rubbish), but there is a more pressing matter at hand which is deciding today's lynch and these three questions really do very little to nothing to determine which is the best candidate for the lynch, and serve as distractions that cripple town's focus. I find myself agreeing strongly with Radfield's read on Toadesstern, more so because of the way Toad responded to his case. As talismania pointed out, he doesn't actually consider Radfield as possible scum. He defends himself not by showing why the case's points are flawed, but rather throwing out discussion points such as balance On June 04 2012 17:18 Toadesstern wrote:
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought. as well as focusing upon the "scumslip". Radfield said himself that his case isn't built up on standalone points but that they all together suggest a pattern rather than coincidences. Yet he is treating the case as if it was some runaway bandwagon caused by someone finding a "scumslip" and focusing all his attention on this point, despite people actually thinking the opposite (compelled by the other points of the case / his response to it rather than the "scumslip") On June 04 2012 08:16 talismania wrote:
Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all? On June 04 2012 08:32 HiroPro wrote:
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch, when in fact that was not the case at all.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I think we got something solid here: ##Vote: ToadessternP.s. I also think risk.nuke is scum and a great D3 lynch candidate. The reason why I support a Toad lynch over risk is because the case is stronger. So summary: I am scum because instead of defending myself from Rad (which I did and you apparently either haven't read it or ignored it) instead of attacking him and for being defensive when talis asked me about something rather than head on attacking someone. Nice logic. I think you need to lynch everyone in the game. Just in case you actually skipped the posts for some reason: + Show Spoiler [#1, in general] +On June 04 2012 07:57 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:27 Radfield wrote:Why is Toad scum. Or rather, why do I think Toad is scum. This may be slightly long winded, and it certainly won't be concise. Toad is an active player as scum, and has fooled me twice before because of that. There is no clear and decisive scum agenda Toad is pushing, and there is no one thing that makes him scum(though I did find my first ever real-live damning scumslip). Instead what I have is a body of evidence that shows Toad is not playing with Town goals in mind. He is playing in an effort to lead mislynches, and with a goal of keeping town moving in the wrong direction. I find very little scummy in Toad's Day 0 play. With lots to contribute and lots to discuss it is extremely easy for an active scum player(like Toad) to blend in on Day 0. Apart from the fact that he begins to buddy me very early on, I see little that leads me to think he is scum in the first 24 hours. Day 1 however is a very different story. I'd like to talk about 4 main points. First, the pushing of Hiropro. Second, the WBG flip flop(which has been discussed, but not adequately). Third, and most damning, the double scum slip. Fourth and lastly, the case on Prplhz. There are also several additional small isolated issues which I will mention. Please remember that none of these points by themselves indicate that Toad is scum. But taken as an entire body of evidence they amount to a damning case against a very likely scum player. I'd also like to mention that this case is NOT based on my previous analysis of Framer/Roleblocker/GF votes. That was an exercise to narrow down my focus, NOT the basis of a case. However I am confident that I was correct in my assessment.
Point Number 1: the attack on HiroproWhat I'd like to represent is that Toad attempts to push a lynch onto Hiro very strongly. A lynch not based on whether or not Hiro is scummy, but rather based solely on the fact that Hiro voted GF. Additionally, Toad states strongly and ephatically that Hiro is scum.... and then waffles away and gives alternate targets. Let me say that again, he is almost sure that hiro is scum, going so far as to say "Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia", but then offers up other lynch options. What!? If you think a guy is for sure scum, and has slipped hard, you don't just offer up other options. Also, witness the tone: First, incredulity and confusion, but no accusation: On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf? Second: Weirdness and oddness, with some discussion about why you should stick to the plans. Again, no hint of a strong accusation here. An accusation perhaps of not being a team player, even equating his play to a townie from a different game, but both those things actually soft accuse Hiropro of being Town, just not a team player. On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. Next post and several hours later Toad drops down his vote without further discussion. No additional points raised, but we've gone from gentle admonition to wanting him to hang. He follows it up with this post which is a giant contradiction. A) thinks Hiro is basically a claimed mafia. B) is willing to lynch some other guy who is NOT a claimed mafia in Toads eyes. That does not jive one bit. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Toad then goes on to only softly push Hiropro. First adding on a convoluted reason for him to be scum, which is quickly shown to be incorrect, and then falling into softy urging posts like these: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that? On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa This from a guy who felt he had bagged a scum straight up. The real gist here is that Toad's tone does not follow any kind of cohesion. He's hot and cold and up and down on hiro, but always with a pushing towards lynch.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flopFirst Toad makes 3 posts that point him having a pretty null read on bugs, and certainly not a scum read: + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 01:10 Toadesstern wrote:
[EDIT: referring to bugs:)Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
On June 01 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. On June 01 2012 02:35 Toadesstern wrote:
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now. However, without mentioning him again, he now wants to lynch bugs. Not only that, but he's adding in bugs when he has already apparently found a 'claimed mafia' in Hiropro. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Also, look at his reasoning: not knowing the cycle was 24 hours, and not posting. Yet those are the exact thing that Toad mentioned earlier, not as scummy though, but as null! So how do those things suddenly become the basis of a case to rival hiropro, someone he thinks is very likely scum. Straight up contradictions.
Point 3: The scum slipsLet me be clear that I have never before found what I consider to be a true 'scum-slip'. The word gets bandied about on this site, and can mean pretty much anything. What it really means though, is to be in possession of information that townies could not possibly have, and only mafia could have. On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. hmm, where's the scum-slip you ask? I missed it at first too, but it's very clearly there. Toad is absolutely 100% he will be around on Day 2. There is only 1 way, and I do mean 1 way, that Toad can be convinced he will live till Day 2. But maybe it was just a slip of the tongue, and he's not actually sure he'll survive the night.... On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p Except he does it again!! He confirms the scumslip. This is a guy who just recently was shot night 1 in WoF mini-mafia, and has been getting shot more and more by mafia. There is no reason at all he should be certain he'll survive the night. In fact, if he is town he should be expecting that he is one of the more likely shots. In fact, he even posts his prplhz case right before the deadline, as if he might get shot. But how then is he 100% certain he'll survive till Day 2. There are no vets, and no other way he could be certain he will survive. The only way to be certain is if he is scum.
Point 4: The prplhz caseI'm going to make this brief, as I feel there is already a body of evidence that shows Toads guilt without this. However Toads push on prplhz is indicative of a scum-push. Very often, when a scum player tries to push a townie, he does it by citing the wrong reasons. There are reasons to see prplhz as scummy, but NOT because of his defense of Navillus. The key is that prplhz defended Navillus several times, but then switched over and voted for him early on in the wagon(3rd vote). There is an argument to be made there that prplhz was scummy in doing that. Toad touches on that, but his focus is squarely on the fact that prplhz should not have found Navillus scummy in the first place. This is a competely backwards approach, one because prplhz was clear in his reasoning, and second because townies are defended all the time along the same lines prplhz was using. Toad is pushing prplhz for the wrong reason, something which scum do all the time. This is not a particularly strong point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Additionally, Toad has been buddying me all game, asking for activity without contributing himself and appealing to dead players. Add in the 4 points of my case, and you have a player who is almost assuredly mafia. Vote for Toad. In fact, I don't even mind if you vote in the voting thread too, as I'm fairly sure he is scum. ##Vote: Toadesstern Going to break the answer down to your 4 parts:
Part 1: I thought Hiropro is a semi-vet. That's why I attacked him for the GF vote because I thought a vet would be smart enough to figure out that it's either RB or framer with all the talk d0 and I thought I caught him lying about why he voted for GF. Furthermore I would have considered a vet who really thinks that GF could be an issue to be more talkactive about what he found out BEFORE the end of deadline. That was basicly it. And yeah it collapsed the moment I was told hiro is not a vet. If you had told me "i wasn't sure it's between RB and Framer and therefore voted GF" I would have voted you as well. About the confirmed... Give me one game in which I don't talk about confirmed people. That's an exaggeration I can't get rid of. I called VE confirmed mafia in LV and he flipped town lol.
Part 2:I added WBG to the list because I thought the 24-hour thing IS something weird while the not talking part wasn't considering that half of the players had not started talking at that time
Part 3:That's me referring to the deadline. As in "See you tomorrow and in I'll answer that 10 seconds short of the deadline with one big post". Also I got A LOT of criticism for mentioning I'm a n1 target in LV. Go read n1 of that game Rad. I thought I should just keep it neutral this time because people called me disruptive in LV for that reason.
Part 4:Well and I simply disagree with part 4.
"Part 5:"The buddying thing. I'm not buddying I'm joking around and ever since the Annul game I am joking around with people who have been in derpgames like that and I still find it funny that you called me most-likely-town that game. I'm "buddying" you in every game. I did the same in c9++ #2, I did the same in the PYP you coached. I was town in both... On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. On June 04 2012 08:47 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:34 HiroPro wrote:EBWOP: My formatting is all screwed up.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch), when in fact that was not the case at all. Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives. ##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I never included it in my own case.. I said what Prplhz said about WBG is a null because you could say the same thing about at least 5 other people. I said the 24-hour thing however IS weird. And that was what? 24 into the game with half the thread not posting? Yeah that's got to be a really strong post ... Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:35 Radfield wrote:On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. Allow me to remove the irrelevent parts of your post and leave the only relevant bit: On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... OK, that's much easier to read. You are trying to tell me that when you said D2, you were actually referring to the end of night 1.... right.... On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' How does 'once day 2 has started', mean 'the end of night 1'. I know it sucks when you caught in a scum-slip, but take solace in the fact that it was only the icing on the cake. I was leaning strong scum on you before I even found that. Because it's still referring to my post I did about prplhz? Because YOU will read it once d2 has started because I'm doing it right at the deadline. Wtf is this about. You even pointed at the post I did (the case on prplhz) AT THE DEADLINE and NOT on D2 and yet you keep assuming I am referrign to some not existing post on d2? On June 04 2012 09:41 Toadesstern wrote:Yes I am attacking you because I am mad at you for telling peolpe I scumslipped when I did no such thing. I already gave all the reasoning there is to explain why nothing you said about me is alignment indicating and the scumslip just isn't a scumslip. Here's a funny sidenote: I actually had "see you d2 if I survive" written in the preview box in those 2 comments you quoted + Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2
and On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote: got ninja'ed About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. checked it and decided to just post "once d2 has started" without the "if I make it" or "if I survve" part because as mentioned wbg attacked me HEAVILY just 24hours (?) prior to that in my other game. I already quoted the part but here is it again: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
[...] You think something like that has no influence on how I post? I changed it to that neutral "see you d2" one ON PURPOSE not because I had information of wether or not I would do n1 but because I got a shitton of posts like the one wbg did just RECENTLY. Recently as in 24 hours prior to the post I made. Yes I should have said "I'll post 10 secs prior to the deadline" instead of "on d2" but there is no post on d2 so obviously I am referring to the post I did on the DEADLINE when talking about my big post that I'm about to make. I also told you that this time I'm going to ninja you, which is just again another tell that I never intended to post it d2. How should I know how to ninja you when I was not talking about the deadline? Why are you telling me I haven't answered those issues? I answered every single one of them
You just proved my point right there with your 4 quotes. 1 is a defense against the case as a whole, and 3 focus on the "scumslip". The key word is "focus". You linger on the scumslip even though no one at the time expressed a scum read on you because they felt particularly compelled by the slip.
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On June 05 2012 04:01 talismania wrote:
I am fine with either a toad or risk.nuke lynch. That said I prefer toad and will be voting for him unless majority is in doubt again.
Maybe it's because I'm tunneled a bit on toad but I do find it interesting though that as soon as he was coming under a lot of pressure the risk.nuke thing just popped up. There were a couple posts a few pages back that were like "yeah toad is scummy but let's lynch risk!"
Huh, that was me. Toad looks a bit scummy, but risk is much more scummy in my eyes. What's wrong with that?
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On June 05 2012 04:03 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 02:48 Toadesstern wrote:On June 05 2012 02:12 slOosh wrote:Alright - I've caught up on the thread. @Radfield - the "nonsense GF vote" refers to when several players attacked HiroPro for his GF vote but none could properly procure (in my opinion) a decent explanation as why it was scummy. That said, many of my town reads find Sbrubbles ok and right now there is the more pressing matter of consolidating today's lynch. Before that I want to preface my vote by saying that there are several players who seem keen on chasing red herrings. Stuff like "the game must be balanced in terms of vets", "why did mafia shoot WBG", "what roles would scum give town" are all that. Not because they are illegitimate discussion points (except the first one I think that's total rubbish), but there is a more pressing matter at hand which is deciding today's lynch and these three questions really do very little to nothing to determine which is the best candidate for the lynch, and serve as distractions that cripple town's focus. I find myself agreeing strongly with Radfield's read on Toadesstern, more so because of the way Toad responded to his case. As talismania pointed out, he doesn't actually consider Radfield as possible scum. He defends himself not by showing why the case's points are flawed, but rather throwing out discussion points such as balance On June 04 2012 17:18 Toadesstern wrote:
Another thing I have in mind right now is balance. Do you really think a team like Rad proposed (Toad + Risk + Zephirdd?) is likely? Against Town-WBG, against Town-Rad, against Town-Prplhz, against Town-Kurumi?
Those are all here playing mafia way longer than I am, especially Rad and WBG. WBG already flipped town. Do you honestly believe someone would make a team like that? That's btw the only reason I question Rad right now. Balancewise it would make a lot of sense if he's mafia but I can't find a thing that brings me to that conclusion except for this very thought. as well as focusing upon the "scumslip". Radfield said himself that his case isn't built up on standalone points but that they all together suggest a pattern rather than coincidences. Yet he is treating the case as if it was some runaway bandwagon caused by someone finding a "scumslip" and focusing all his attention on this point, despite people actually thinking the opposite (compelled by the other points of the case / his response to it rather than the "scumslip") On June 04 2012 08:16 talismania wrote:
Actually, another point in light of the case rad just posted: why did you reply so defensively to my post at all? On June 04 2012 08:32 HiroPro wrote:
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch, when in fact that was not the case at all.
##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I think we got something solid here: ##Vote: ToadessternP.s. I also think risk.nuke is scum and a great D3 lynch candidate. The reason why I support a Toad lynch over risk is because the case is stronger. So summary: I am scum because instead of defending myself from Rad (which I did and you apparently either haven't read it or ignored it) instead of attacking him and for being defensive when talis asked me about something rather than head on attacking someone. Nice logic. I think you need to lynch everyone in the game. Just in case you actually skipped the posts for some reason: + Show Spoiler [#1, in general] +On June 04 2012 07:57 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 07:27 Radfield wrote:Why is Toad scum. Or rather, why do I think Toad is scum. This may be slightly long winded, and it certainly won't be concise. Toad is an active player as scum, and has fooled me twice before because of that. There is no clear and decisive scum agenda Toad is pushing, and there is no one thing that makes him scum(though I did find my first ever real-live damning scumslip). Instead what I have is a body of evidence that shows Toad is not playing with Town goals in mind. He is playing in an effort to lead mislynches, and with a goal of keeping town moving in the wrong direction. I find very little scummy in Toad's Day 0 play. With lots to contribute and lots to discuss it is extremely easy for an active scum player(like Toad) to blend in on Day 0. Apart from the fact that he begins to buddy me very early on, I see little that leads me to think he is scum in the first 24 hours. Day 1 however is a very different story. I'd like to talk about 4 main points. First, the pushing of Hiropro. Second, the WBG flip flop(which has been discussed, but not adequately). Third, and most damning, the double scum slip. Fourth and lastly, the case on Prplhz. There are also several additional small isolated issues which I will mention. Please remember that none of these points by themselves indicate that Toad is scum. But taken as an entire body of evidence they amount to a damning case against a very likely scum player. I'd also like to mention that this case is NOT based on my previous analysis of Framer/Roleblocker/GF votes. That was an exercise to narrow down my focus, NOT the basis of a case. However I am confident that I was correct in my assessment.
Point Number 1: the attack on HiroproWhat I'd like to represent is that Toad attempts to push a lynch onto Hiro very strongly. A lynch not based on whether or not Hiro is scummy, but rather based solely on the fact that Hiro voted GF. Additionally, Toad states strongly and ephatically that Hiro is scum.... and then waffles away and gives alternate targets. Let me say that again, he is almost sure that hiro is scum, going so far as to say "Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia", but then offers up other lynch options. What!? If you think a guy is for sure scum, and has slipped hard, you don't just offer up other options. Also, witness the tone: First, incredulity and confusion, but no accusation: On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf? Second: Weirdness and oddness, with some discussion about why you should stick to the plans. Again, no hint of a strong accusation here. An accusation perhaps of not being a team player, even equating his play to a townie from a different game, but both those things actually soft accuse Hiropro of being Town, just not a team player. On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. Next post and several hours later Toad drops down his vote without further discussion. No additional points raised, but we've gone from gentle admonition to wanting him to hang. He follows it up with this post which is a giant contradiction. A) thinks Hiro is basically a claimed mafia. B) is willing to lynch some other guy who is NOT a claimed mafia in Toads eyes. That does not jive one bit. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Toad then goes on to only softly push Hiropro. First adding on a convoluted reason for him to be scum, which is quickly shown to be incorrect, and then falling into softy urging posts like these: + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 06:17 Toadesstern wrote:1. Toad says hiro votin GF is incredible scummy 2. Rad posts: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:08 Radfield wrote:
[...]
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
3. ... 4. Nothing? What was your result of filterting him? That statement I quoted sounds really strong and yet I'm the only one voting hiro when noone has disagreed with it except for hiro? Is there a reason for that? On June 02 2012 06:39 Toadesstern wrote:
Any chance hiros lynch is going to happen? That guy is not playing at all and I still think the GF vote is as scummy as you can get.
That being said Zephird isn't really as much as an option for me... Hiro voted Zephird and I doubt they're bussing on d1 lol On June 02 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok screw this, hiro is not going to happen... need to think and read and vice versa This from a guy who felt he had bagged a scum straight up. The real gist here is that Toad's tone does not follow any kind of cohesion. He's hot and cold and up and down on hiro, but always with a pushing towards lynch.
Point 2: The bugs flip=flopFirst Toad makes 3 posts that point him having a pretty null read on bugs, and certainly not a scum read: + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 01:10 Toadesstern wrote:
[EDIT: referring to bugs:)Well the game only now started and I probably look like I don't care right now as well as I'm not posting at all.
The thing is that we're lacking activity right now, we haven't even got an update from everyone what they've voted and we need that.
On June 01 2012 01:52 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote:
[...]
@Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. On June 01 2012 02:35 Toadesstern wrote:
I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details.
I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now. However, without mentioning him again, he now wants to lynch bugs. Not only that, but he's adding in bugs when he has already apparently found a 'claimed mafia' in Hiropro. On June 01 2012 21:50 Toadesstern wrote:
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.
Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
Also, look at his reasoning: not knowing the cycle was 24 hours, and not posting. Yet those are the exact thing that Toad mentioned earlier, not as scummy though, but as null! So how do those things suddenly become the basis of a case to rival hiropro, someone he thinks is very likely scum. Straight up contradictions.
Point 3: The scum slipsLet me be clear that I have never before found what I consider to be a true 'scum-slip'. The word gets bandied about on this site, and can mean pretty much anything. What it really means though, is to be in possession of information that townies could not possibly have, and only mafia could have. On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. hmm, where's the scum-slip you ask? I missed it at first too, but it's very clearly there. Toad is absolutely 100% he will be around on Day 2. There is only 1 way, and I do mean 1 way, that Toad can be convinced he will live till Day 2. But maybe it was just a slip of the tongue, and he's not actually sure he'll survive the night.... On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2 :p Except he does it again!! He confirms the scumslip. This is a guy who just recently was shot night 1 in WoF mini-mafia, and has been getting shot more and more by mafia. There is no reason at all he should be certain he'll survive the night. In fact, if he is town he should be expecting that he is one of the more likely shots. In fact, he even posts his prplhz case right before the deadline, as if he might get shot. But how then is he 100% certain he'll survive till Day 2. There are no vets, and no other way he could be certain he will survive. The only way to be certain is if he is scum.
Point 4: The prplhz caseI'm going to make this brief, as I feel there is already a body of evidence that shows Toads guilt without this. However Toads push on prplhz is indicative of a scum-push. Very often, when a scum player tries to push a townie, he does it by citing the wrong reasons. There are reasons to see prplhz as scummy, but NOT because of his defense of Navillus. The key is that prplhz defended Navillus several times, but then switched over and voted for him early on in the wagon(3rd vote). There is an argument to be made there that prplhz was scummy in doing that. Toad touches on that, but his focus is squarely on the fact that prplhz should not have found Navillus scummy in the first place. This is a competely backwards approach, one because prplhz was clear in his reasoning, and second because townies are defended all the time along the same lines prplhz was using. Toad is pushing prplhz for the wrong reason, something which scum do all the time. This is not a particularly strong point, but a valid one nonetheless.
Additionally, Toad has been buddying me all game, asking for activity without contributing himself and appealing to dead players. Add in the 4 points of my case, and you have a player who is almost assuredly mafia. Vote for Toad. In fact, I don't even mind if you vote in the voting thread too, as I'm fairly sure he is scum. ##Vote: Toadesstern Going to break the answer down to your 4 parts:
Part 1: I thought Hiropro is a semi-vet. That's why I attacked him for the GF vote because I thought a vet would be smart enough to figure out that it's either RB or framer with all the talk d0 and I thought I caught him lying about why he voted for GF. Furthermore I would have considered a vet who really thinks that GF could be an issue to be more talkactive about what he found out BEFORE the end of deadline. That was basicly it. And yeah it collapsed the moment I was told hiro is not a vet. If you had told me "i wasn't sure it's between RB and Framer and therefore voted GF" I would have voted you as well. About the confirmed... Give me one game in which I don't talk about confirmed people. That's an exaggeration I can't get rid of. I called VE confirmed mafia in LV and he flipped town lol.
Part 2:I added WBG to the list because I thought the 24-hour thing IS something weird while the not talking part wasn't considering that half of the players had not started talking at that time
Part 3:That's me referring to the deadline. As in "See you tomorrow and in I'll answer that 10 seconds short of the deadline with one big post". Also I got A LOT of criticism for mentioning I'm a n1 target in LV. Go read n1 of that game Rad. I thought I should just keep it neutral this time because people called me disruptive in LV for that reason.
Part 4:Well and I simply disagree with part 4.
"Part 5:"The buddying thing. I'm not buddying I'm joking around and ever since the Annul game I am joking around with people who have been in derpgames like that and I still find it funny that you called me most-likely-town that game. I'm "buddying" you in every game. I did the same in c9++ #2, I did the same in the PYP you coached. I was town in both... On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. On June 04 2012 08:47 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:34 HiroPro wrote:EBWOP: My formatting is all screwed up.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. There's no need to be rude. You never mention what parts of my case or talismania's reads or Radfield's reads on Zephirdd you agree with. The reasons that you mention have nothing to do with whether or not he is mafia. You are being extremely inactive and not making any proper reads or cases of your own. Don't expect me to treat you like confirmed town.
I agree with Radfield. I don't find the "going to be there d2" scummy but both the push on me (the uneven nature of it, especially when I look at people like Sbrubbles who also pushed me but did it very differently) and the really strange accusation on WBG (especially when Toad attempted to use this in his case against prplhz) are scummy. Toad's response to my questioning on the WBG part of his case against prplhz was bad, especially since he misrepresents prplhz (says that prplhz continued to push for WBG lynch), when in fact that was not the case at all. Zephirdd and risk.nuke are both looking a little weird to me, but Toad's behavior is not only very scummy, but has clear mafia motives. ##Vote: Toadesstern (I will not be voting in the actual thread until much closer to the deadline) I never included it in my own case.. I said what Prplhz said about WBG is a null because you could say the same thing about at least 5 other people. I said the 24-hour thing however IS weird. And that was what? 24 into the game with half the thread not posting? Yeah that's got to be a really strong post ... Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 08:35 Radfield wrote:On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... Here's a little quote from WBG from LV after I said I'm probably going to die n1: On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
We kill gambit man today. He ninja voted ET yesterday and he's said nothing. Eat shit and die, scum.
##vote Gambitx32 and I've got that a lot. I take the neutral stance on wether or not I'm going to die n1 as an improvement because I was told to not talk about it anymore A LOT. Allow me to remove the irrelevent parts of your post and leave the only relevant bit: On June 04 2012 08:20 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok if I am referring to Day2 show me the big post on d2 I was referring to on d2... OK, that's much easier to read. You are trying to tell me that when you said D2, you were actually referring to the end of night 1.... right.... On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' 'once day 2 has started' How does 'once day 2 has started', mean 'the end of night 1'. I know it sucks when you caught in a scum-slip, but take solace in the fact that it was only the icing on the cake. I was leaning strong scum on you before I even found that. Because it's still referring to my post I did about prplhz? Because YOU will read it once d2 has started because I'm doing it right at the deadline. Wtf is this about. You even pointed at the post I did (the case on prplhz) AT THE DEADLINE and NOT on D2 and yet you keep assuming I am referrign to some not existing post on d2? On June 04 2012 09:41 Toadesstern wrote:Yes I am attacking you because I am mad at you for telling peolpe I scumslipped when I did no such thing. I already gave all the reasoning there is to explain why nothing you said about me is alignment indicating and the scumslip just isn't a scumslip. Here's a funny sidenote: I actually had "see you d2 if I survive" written in the preview box in those 2 comments you quoted + Show Spoiler +
On June 03 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:
Okay back and I know I promised I would talk about who those 2 guys are I mentioned and why they are mafia but I realized I was retarded when I said that. See you d2
and On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote: got ninja'ed About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry. checked it and decided to just post "once d2 has started" without the "if I make it" or "if I survve" part because as mentioned wbg attacked me HEAVILY just 24hours (?) prior to that in my other game. I already quoted the part but here is it again: Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 09:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Shut up Toad you're not worth a mafia bullet. You cause so much disruption regardless of alignment it's no wonder everyone calls you hypnotoad.
[...] You think something like that has no influence on how I post? I changed it to that neutral "see you d2" one ON PURPOSE not because I had information of wether or not I would do n1 but because I got a shitton of posts like the one wbg did just RECENTLY. Recently as in 24 hours prior to the post I made. Yes I should have said "I'll post 10 secs prior to the deadline" instead of "on d2" but there is no post on d2 so obviously I am referring to the post I did on the DEADLINE when talking about my big post that I'm about to make. I also told you that this time I'm going to ninja you, which is just again another tell that I never intended to post it d2. How should I know how to ninja you when I was not talking about the deadline? Why are you telling me I haven't answered those issues? I answered every single one of them You just proved my point right there with your 4 quotes. 1 is a defense against the case as a whole, and 3 focus on the "scumslip". The key word is "focus". You linger on the scumslip even though no one at the time expressed a scum read on you because they felt particularly compelled by the slip.
Radfield (as in: the guy who did the case) said himself that the 3 aspects that are not the "slip" are not really that strong and the only thing that he really considers strong is the scumslip.
Kurumi said the only thing he consideres to be a point at all is the "slip".
How are those 2 noone? sure you could argue about Kurumi but Radfield? That's the guy who did the case himself and he said the slip is basicly everything in his case and the rest is just ornament.
Have you not read those 2 posts recently?
On June 04 2012 21:13 Kurumi wrote:
I find it funny that the thing that made Radfield's case strong for me is the "see you d2" slip and many people dismiss it as something normal.
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On June 05 2012 00:32 Radfield wrote:Prplhz, my most recent two scum games were Arkham City 2, and Couples Retreat. Lotr was before that. I really shouldn't have posted that I thought a shot on you was a good idea, and never would have if you hadn't explicitly asked. There were a few things though that were making you think you were scum right then. As I mentioned before, I actually had you written down as PROB TOWN in my notes. Pretty sure it was a combo of a) your vote on navillus after defending him, b) voting majority +1 when the obvious vote was lynch lock(majority +1 would be quite mafia favoured given that we had little focus at the end of day 1) and c) the fact that it seemed you were overconfident Kurumi had no gun. All that being said, once I filter you again yesterday I felt you were fairly strongly town aligned. @Sbrubbles, you're right, I misread when filtering. Not sure how that happened. Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 21:13 Kurumi wrote:
I find it funny that the thing that made Radfield's case strong for me is the "see you d2" slip and many people dismiss it as something normal. Thank you. I agree it is the strongest part, and am a bit baffled that people think townies commonly refer to the end of night 1 as day 2. Or that they state with confidence they will be around on day 2. It simply DOES NOT HAPPEN.
Also Rad said all the time that the "scumslip" is the major part in his case that glues everything together because everything else combined isn't making me mafia at all. He even said I was looking good d0 and d1 although he later on said I usually look good either way...
I have explained everything else a dozen times. I explained the WBG suspicion (on d1 after 24 hours...) a dozen times and I have explained the vote on hiro a dozen times. I am not focusing on the scumslip I am focusing on what I am asked.
Hiro in general askes about the Hiro stuff.
Prplhz asked about the WBG stuff because it involved Prplhz as well.
Everyone else asked about the scumslip.
I am "focusing" about that was the biggest issue for most people and I was asked about it the most. Do you want me to ignore people instead?
You are literally taking anything I say and turning it the wrong side so it pleases the case.
When I defend myself when talis asked me something I am defensive instead of agressive as I should according to you and therefore have to be mafia.
When I attack someone else I am attacking myself instead of being defensive as I should according to you and therefore have to be mafia.
There is no way to argue like that with you sloOsh. Tell me what's wrong with you or me and we can talk about it but don't tell me A is a thing that makes be scummy because it should be B and B is a thing that makes be scummy because it should be A. That doesn't work out. I'm just one guy.
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That being said if the lynch is between risk and myself I will obviously vote risk and not myself.
He's a null but I've got a bunch of townreads and as mentioned he's one of the 2 people I consider for #2 mafia spot based on my townreads + other mafia reads combined giving him a at least good chance to flip mafia on his own although he is a null.
##risk.nuke
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On June 05 2012 04:03 slOosh wrote:
You just proved my point right there with your 4 quotes. 1 is a defense against the case as a whole, and 3 focus on the "scumslip". The key word is "focus". You linger on the scumslip even though no one at the time expressed a scum read on you because they felt particularly compelled by the slip.
Of the 4 quotes Toad has mentioned, the last one has a timestamp of:
On June 04 2012 09:41 Toadesstern wrote:
Compared to
On June 04 2012 21:13 Kurumi wrote:
On June 05 2012 00:32 Radfield wrote:
Additionally, Rad never said that the slip was the crux of his case at all. Strongest point =/= basis.
Toad is misinterpreting things.
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On June 05 2012 04:39 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:03 slOosh wrote:
You just proved my point right there with your 4 quotes. 1 is a defense against the case as a whole, and 3 focus on the "scumslip". The key word is "focus". You linger on the scumslip even though no one at the time expressed a scum read on you because they felt particularly compelled by the slip. Of the 4 quotes Toad has mentioned, the last one has a timestamp of: On June 04 2012 09:41 Toadesstern wrote:Compared to On June 04 2012 21:13 Kurumi wrote:
On June 05 2012 00:32 Radfield wrote:Additionally, Rad never said that the slip was the crux of his case at all. Strongest point =/= basis. Toad is misinterpreting things.
sorry I went with the most recent ones.
Take http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=499&topic_id=340727 as an example of why I kept answering that stuff the most, because Radfield kept talking about that while the rest was "not worth responding"
Again. I answer what I can answer and if people talk about the "slip" all the time I answer that part because I already answered the rest earlier and noone came back to those parts and asked me questions.
Mostly I ended up talking about other stuff when people misunderstood what I am saying. I still feel like noone read or understood what I said about WBG.
For example, what I said about WBG is:
Not posting for the first 24hours is a weak tell because there's at least 5 other guys doing the same thing while the "not knowing about the deadline" might be a tell. Therefore I disagreed with Prplhz's reasonning on WBG but still agreed on the conclusion that WBG looks weird. And only mentioned to be willing to lynch into him once (as in, "if you had to lynch one right now, who would that be?") and NEVER pushed him at all after that. I said it looks weird and that's it.
Yet people say I used prplhz's argument for saying wbg looks bad when talking about wbg. I never did that. I said what prplhz said is a weak tell and should not be considered while still getting to the same conclusion for another reason.
Also people keep referring to it as "toad was trying to push a mislynch" lol. If that's pushing a mislynch than you should see me play as mafia.
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@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you?
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On June 05 2012 00:59 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
Lets just assume we don't have a medic instead of using that as an excuse to justify scum-kills. If any of you were scum, would you give town a medic? That's like sabotaging for yourself so can we please assume the scum did not sabotage for themself and did not give us a medic.
Radfield, since you've ignored my post. Why do you think they killed wbg?
How did I ignore your post? Which post are you even talking about, please show me. I'm not really interested in why bugs died. He's a good enough player that him getting shot N1 is fairly irrelevant. He's also the kind of player who has weak D1 reads, and then get startlingly accurate as the game goes on(as long as he doesn't get sidetracked). I also don't think scum realized medic was the strongest role we could have. On the surface it looks weak, as most medics miss, and it can't confirm townies or catch scum. Especially if they think they were getting roleblocker, then medic might seem like the least of the evils. Show nested quote +I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later. Your resistance to lynching Toad is noted. Please state specifically which parts of my case you find strong or weak. Also, who is your alternative, still Zeph based off of WBG's accusations? Zephirdd
I'm starting to doubt my read on zeph. When I analyzed him logicaly I felt confident in my read. Today when I reread his filter I'm feeling. It feels as he is sincere. Especially his last posts. I'm starting to lean more to it's just bad play rather then scum-agenda.
Ignoring and other stuff
What I ment with ignoring was that when I said that maybe "HEY JUST MAYBE" we should consider the reads of the guy who the mafia killed and see what he was on to you said nothing. I mean the "they killed wbg because of his status as a veteran" is weaker then weak and that goes without saying. He's not a better scumhunter then average. And saying he gets better as the game progress, that goes for everyone. If your case is he gets better compared to others later in the game, that is false. If you insist on this I can get game-links. Right now your view on the scum killing wbg is they played suboptimally. That is a joke and is the number one reason I mistrust you.
Nor did they give us a medic. Not beeing able to shoot whoever they want is just setting themselves up for disadvantage. I'd guess they gave us a tracker and an innocent child. They absolutely didn't give us a vig. So did they give us 1-shot cop who confirms two townies or 1townie/1scum at any point in the game. The thing that makes an innocent child less powerfull in this setup is because with a known amounts of blues they can't counterclaim without going for a 50/50 so that make all blues powerfuller (exept child).
Lynches
As for lynches I'd like to lynch kurumi. If I can't get support for that I'm torn between lynching sloosh and sbrubbles.
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On June 05 2012 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you?
Why are you defending Toadesstern?
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On June 05 2012 05:09 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you? Why are you defending Toadesstern?
I don't even understand this question.
Could you provide me with an example answer so that I may get an idea about what's going on inside your head?
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On June 05 2012 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you?
Where are you getting the impression that the scumslip is why I think he is scum?
This thread is on the lower side of post count. After Radfield's one time response against Toad's initial defense, Toad responds by specifically pointing out the scumslip. It is he himself who brings all the focus and attention on this point. It's only then that Radfield bites and they have that back and forth. This isn't a matter of his inability to discern what people's major suspicions on him are - because there aren't any in the thread yet! He is selectively choosing what to respond to - e.g. from this post by Radfield, he only responds to the third point.
You seem to be doing the thing that Toad is doing and reading out of context. At the time no one expressed that the scumslip was the most damning aspect of the case.
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On June 05 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you? Where are you getting the impression that the scumslip is why I think he is scum? This thread is on the lower side of post count. After Radfield's one time response against Toad's initial defense, Toad responds by specifically pointing out the scumslip. It is he himself who brings all the focus and attention on this point. It's only then that Radfield bites and they have that back and forth. This isn't a matter of his inability to discern what people's major suspicions on him are - because there aren't any in the thread yet! He is selectively choosing what to respond to - e.g. from this post by Radfield, he only responds to the third point. You seem to be doing the thing that Toad is doing and reading out of context. At the time no one expressed that the scumslip was the most damning aspect of the case.
that's the other 2/3 of that post are simply wrong or he misunderstood what I said. I already explained the other half and I did it just a couple of minutes ago. Just look at what I posted about the WBG issue recently. That's what I keep saying and people keep making something different out of it. I said he's misunderstanding what I said and he keeps on misunderstanding it. Not much to do there.
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Toad who should I shoot N2 and why.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
prplhz, you're wrong. Toad is scum, and is scrambling, misrepresenting and lying in an effort to avoid a lynch. He is NOT adequetely explaining his actions, instead he is talking around the issues, and bringing up tangential points instead addressing the true points in my case.
1. I explain how his early actions regarding Hiropro were scummy. Including his demeanor changes, vote and reasoning. Toad answers by talking about the Hiropro vs Hiroprotagonist issue, which had NOTHING TO DO with what I was talking about. It didn't matter WHO he thought he was talking to, because the way he was doing it was inherently scummy.
2. He originally used the 'not talking much' thing as an excuse to call bugs null, and then later added that in to his case on bugs being scummy. Something cannot be null to start, and then with no change become scummy later on when you try to think up reasons to lynch him. Toad completely ignores this part and only talks about the 24 hour thing and how he thought it was weird(not even scummy, yet he lists it as one of his reasons for finding bugs scummy).
3. He defends himself completely inadequately. Anyone who does not see this for a scum slip has not played enough mafia. You DO NOT say 'see you on day 2' when you actually mean 'see you at the end of night 1'. He also tries to stretch it as if I am claiming their is some Day 2 post, when that has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I'm talking about his confidence that he will survive to Day 2.
4. He never actually responds to my issues here.
He is also deliberately stretching the truth or lying. He accused me of 'always thinking he was scum when he was town', but when I pressed him for examples he ignored me. He claims I think my entire case is based on the scum-slip, when I never said anything remotely similar. He claims my case was built out of my voting analysis, when I clearly and deliberately stated that was not the case. He claims I said that 3 of my points were 'weak', when of course I said no such thing.
Toad is deliberately skewing things and trying to misdirect. He is scum.
I also agree that risk.nuke is probably scum too, and see no redeeming features to his play. That being said, I feel Toad is a much larger threat than risk.nuke, as he is far more able to wiggle out of a lynch if I die. risk is going no where however.
Additionally, assuming for a moment that we had an equal read on both Toad and risk, we gain wayyyyy more information from a Toad red flip than a risk red flip. Obviously we don't lynch based on getting info, but that doesn't mean we should disregard it either.
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On June 05 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 04:56 prplhz wrote:
@slOosh You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case. You point out that he is focusing too much on the scumslip even though people aren't taking that seriously and that he is rambling about irrelevant stuff such as team balance.
I think these are poor reasons for voting Toadesstern.
Townies will explain their actions, and if the scumslip just requires more explanation than the rest then so be it. You seem to think that it's a scum tell that he didn't analyse the thread for what people were mostly angry with him about, and then address that the hardest. I would say that that would be a scummy thing to do. He addressed all points in Radfield's case, and it's not like the scumslip isn't convincing anybody, it's convinced Radfield, Kurumi, and you. The rambling about team balance is a bit weird but it looks genuine enough to me. Townies don't want to get lynched either.
Fact is that even if he is scum, it was a slip. He didn't intend on it himself. He even has a story about how he considered that very line several times and how something someone else said in another game convinced him about whatever. This looks quite townie to me. I think that if scum are worried about a line, then they just god damn delete it, problem solved. He obviously dwelt at that line for some time and yet he ended up writing it even though scum are usually very paranoid. They think everything they write is scummy because they're inherently biased because they know that they're scum!
So, do you really think that Toadesstern is scum just because he apparently addressed the scumslip a little harder than the rest of the points and because he started rambling a bit? What about everything else he did in this game, has that been scummy or is that null to you? Where are you getting the impression that the scumslip is why I think he is scum? This thread is on the lower side of post count. After Radfield's one time response against Toad's initial defense, Toad responds by specifically pointing out the scumslip. It is he himself who brings all the focus and attention on this point. It's only then that Radfield bites and they have that back and forth. This isn't a matter of his inability to discern what people's major suspicions on him are - because there aren't any in the thread yet! He is selectively choosing what to respond to - e.g. from this post by Radfield, he only responds to the third point. You seem to be doing the thing that Toad is doing and reading out of context. At the time no one expressed that the scumslip was the most damning aspect of the case.
I am not really getting that impression. I wrote in the very first sentence "You are voting Toadesstern more so because of his defence than because of Radfield's case".
Toadesstern responded to every single point 2 posts after Radfield's case. He then devoted a little more time to the scumslip, I don't really know why but he has a little story about it, and it blows up because this is what a lot of people latch on to and it becomes the hot topic.
So you point is that it's he is scum, it's a real slip, and that's why he's so worried about it? Dunno, I don't think that it is. I think it looks like he had some more stuff to say about one point and then he said that. The whole "wherebugsgo said something in another game and then I wrote something and then deleted some of it" sounds too genuine to be something he's making up, the same with the "d2 means night1"-thing. If anything, his fast response to Radfield looks kinda like he isn't afraid of him, he doesn't gauge reactions of anything, he just goes straight for him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 05 2012 05:30 slOosh wrote:
You seem to be doing the thing that Toad is doing and reading out of context. At the time no one expressed that the scumslip was the most damning aspect of the case.
Actually I did, but it's neither here nor there. I think many people don't realize what a true scum slip is.
I agree 100% with the rest of what you said though. Toad is picking and choosing what he defends, because for many of his actions he has no defense.
Compare that to prplhz's defense from Toad's case, and you will find that prp adequately responded to each point with his thought process and reasoning for actions.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
It's time to start putting votes down for real everyone.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Anyone know how many votes we need for majority?
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Toad, I might get a vote off you if you tell me who should I kill
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with 10 alive, 5 means majority. I'm willing to lynch Toadesstern(as I said multiple times I find him a bit scummy), many of his reactions don't look right to me. That said, I really really really would prefer a risk.nuke lynch. Seriously, the guy disappeared. Won't even bother defending himself. That's sign of a scum who was caught. We lynch him.
If we have trouble hammering Toad and a risk.nuke lynch doesn't happen I'll switch, but for now I'll leave my vote on him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Here is an additional reason to vote Toad over risk, albeit and ego-centric one.
If we kill Toad and he flips red, medic(assuming we have one) will pretty much 100% cover me. Then we very likely lynch risk.nuke tomorrow.
If we kill risk and he flips red, medic wonders if maybe Toad is town, and maybe I am scum. Scum shoots me, and Toad argues his way out of a lynch tomorrow because I am not around to push it through.
Toad is very likely scum. risk.nuke is also probably scum(haven't refiltered him lately though, so he may be more or less scummy than I'm thinking). Lynching Toad gives us way more to take away than a risk.nuke lynch. Lynching Toad also pretty much confirms me as Town, as well as likely keeping me alive until the medic dies(blah blah if he exists).
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On June 05 2012 05:53 Kurumi wrote:
Toad, I might get a vote off you if you tell me who should I kill
depends on the lynch. If risk flips red you obviously shoot rad.
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On June 02 2012 10:09 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:08 Bluelightz wrote:
CORRECTION. Navillus or any other person needs 7 votes to be lynched Ignore the rambling fool! OP was wrong due to copying that noob greymist. We won't change the setup with such short notice. Six votes still required :p
I interpret this to mean 5 (10/2 = 5 rounded up is 5).
##Vote: Toadesstern
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Right now there's 3 on him (Kurumi, Radfield & I), and its lynch lock with 5 votes needed to lynch.
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Ok, I read through Toad's filter again. I am confident in him being scum. I will be voting for Toad in the real voting thread now.
I don't buy Toad's explanation on how his case against me developed. It doesn't make sense from a townie perspective even if he believed that I was a vet. This is Toad's reason for suggesting a WBG lynch: "WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here.". Completely ridiculous. The general tone of his response is townie in nature which is what confused me earlier, but he avoids and sidesteps the parts of the case that he can't answer. Toad is scum; everyone should vote for him.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 05 2012 06:03 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 05:53 Kurumi wrote:
Toad, I might get a vote off you if you tell me who should I kill depends on the lynch. If risk flips red you obviously shoot rad.
It's funny because risk and Toad are BOTH probably red
But yeah, you obviously shoot me....
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On June 05 2012 05:48 Radfield wrote:
prplhz, you're wrong. Toad is scum, and is scrambling, misrepresenting and lying in an effort to avoid a lynch. He is NOT adequetely explaining his actions, instead he is talking around the issues, and bringing up tangential points instead addressing the true points in my case.
1. I explain how his early actions regarding Hiropro were scummy. Including his demeanor changes, vote and reasoning. Toad answers by talking about the Hiropro vs Hiroprotagonist issue, which had NOTHING TO DO with what I was talking about. It didn't matter WHO he thought he was talking to, because the way he was doing it was inherently scummy.
2. He originally used the 'not talking much' thing as an excuse to call bugs null, and then later added that in to his case on bugs being scummy. Something cannot be null to start, and then with no change become scummy later on when you try to think up reasons to lynch him. Toad completely ignores this part and only talks about the 24 hour thing and how he thought it was weird(not even scummy, yet he lists it as one of his reasons for finding bugs scummy).
3. He defends himself completely inadequately. Anyone who does not see this for a scum slip has not played enough mafia. You DO NOT say 'see you on day 2' when you actually mean 'see you at the end of night 1'. He also tries to stretch it as if I am claiming their is some Day 2 post, when that has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I'm talking about his confidence that he will survive to Day 2.
4. He never actually responds to my issues here.
He is also deliberately stretching the truth or lying. He accused me of 'always thinking he was scum when he was town', but when I pressed him for examples he ignored me. He claims I think my entire case is based on the scum-slip, when I never said anything remotely similar. He claims my case was built out of my voting analysis, when I clearly and deliberately stated that was not the case. He claims I said that 3 of my points were 'weak', when of course I said no such thing.
Toad is deliberately skewing things and trying to misdirect. He is scum.
I also agree that risk.nuke is probably scum too, and see no redeeming features to his play. That being said, I feel Toad is a much larger threat than risk.nuke, as he is far more able to wiggle out of a lynch if I die. risk is going no where however.
Additionally, assuming for a moment that we had an equal read on both Toad and risk, we gain wayyyyy more information from a Toad red flip than a risk red flip. Obviously we don't lynch based on getting info, but that doesn't mean we should disregard it either.
See? That's what I am talking about:
2. He originally used the 'not talking much' thing as an excuse to call bugs null, and then later added that in to his case on bugs being scummy. Something cannot be null to start, and then with no change become scummy later on when you try to think up reasons to lynch him. Toad completely ignores this part and only talks about the 24 hour thing and how he thought it was weird(not even scummy, yet he lists it as one of his reasons for finding bugs scummy).
I never did that. In fact I stated at least 5 times that I did something else. He either hasn't read any of those answeres or still hasn't understoof what I said.
1. I explain how his early actions regarding Hiropro were scummy. Including his demeanor changes, vote and reasoning. Toad answers by talking about the Hiropro vs Hiroprotagonist issue, which had NOTHING TO DO with what I was talking about. It didn't matter WHO he thought he was talking to, because the way he was doing it was inherently scummy.
YES IT DOES HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. I thought I caught a vet lying. That's it. How is the fact that he's not a vet not of importance if I tell people I caught a vet lying?
[quote3. He defends himself completely inadequately. Anyone who does not see this for a scum slip has not played enough mafia. You DO NOT say 'see you on day 2' when you actually mean 'see you at the end of night 1'. He also tries to stretch it as if I am claiming their is some Day 2 post, when that has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I'm talking about his confidence that he will survive to Day 2.[/quote]
I already talked about it and apparently people don't give a thing about the "scumslip" except for rad and Kurumi and Rad is the only bringing it up all the time
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Okay lets hammer Toadesstern.
I don't get why you are afraid of dying Radfield and I don't like how you are wobbling on risk.nuke. First "he's very likely scum" and then god damn 5 minutes later you didn't read his filter and you have no idea.
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On June 05 2012 06:03 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 05:53 Kurumi wrote:
Toad, I might get a vote off you if you tell me who should I kill depends on the lynch. If risk flips red you obviously shoot rad.
This is really poor logic, especially when you consider that Toad said a little while back that Radfield is probably town.
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On June 05 2012 06:08 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:03 Toadesstern wrote:On June 05 2012 05:53 Kurumi wrote:
Toad, I might get a vote off you if you tell me who should I kill depends on the lynch. If risk flips red you obviously shoot rad. This is really poor logic, especially when you consider that Toad said a little while back that Radfield is probably town.
no it's not.
#1 mafia is either Prplhz or Rad
If prplhz is pushing a red lynch instead of me he can't be mafia and I have a much stronger townread on Kurumi.
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talismania with the god damn ninja vote right there. After I say I'm going to hammer Toadesstern but without posting in the thread and while pushing risk.nuke.
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Toad sorry if you're really town but I don't buy it. I put in the fifth vote - I think he's hammered.
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"... without posting in the thread and while pushing risk.nuke." goes for both of us.
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On June 05 2012 06:15 prplhz wrote:
talismania with the god damn ninja vote right there. After I say I'm going to hammer Toadesstern but without posting in the thread and while pushing risk.nuke.
I actually thought it was weird you hadn't hammered him yet when I read that and went to the voting thread. I refreshed a couple of times and then figured I ought to do it myself.
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Woops talismania wasn't who I thought he was, ignore most of that!
gg toad
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 05 2012 06:07 prplhz wrote:
Okay lets hammer Toadesstern.
I don't get why you are afraid of dying Radfield and I don't like how you are wobbling on risk.nuke. First "he's very likely scum" and then god damn 5 minutes later you didn't read his filter and you have no idea.
I didn't say I have no idea. In fact, I think risk is probably scum. But I much prefer lynching Toad over risk today.
If somehow Toad flips green and risk flip red, then I guess I look like shit, but I can handle that.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Kitaman, please tell me we get the lynch results now and go into extended night phase.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
errr.... in green text....
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Night 2
"OOOOOH DAT BLOOD!"
*Nearly dies laughing*
Men of the world are so boss, they nearly but never die :D.
back to dem ramblings on the tower :3
"INSANITY?!"
"WHAT IS THIS.... INSANITY???"
"Insanity is-"
"INSANITY! Duh!"
Anyway, the group killed someone, yay!
Credit to bluelightz for flavor.
Toadesstern the mafia goon has been lynched.
You have 28 hours to vote for a poison and send in actions.
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Aw yeah Let's kill risk.nuke next.
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Woah, gratz Rad.
Now we lynch risk. EZPZ
Additional info: Toad and risk soft defended each other.
Toad flipped mafia.
risk is mafia!
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Yum yum yum. Alright we get a freebie poison in the form of majority + 1 or mayoral lynch. Actually any of the poisons minus the concealed flip looks ok. So it becomes a question of which poison hurts us more in the late game?
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Yep yep. And our list of possible mafia is narrowed down a lot. With the nature of the voting system, it's very unlikely that anyone who voted for Toad is mafia.
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The implicit thought and reasoning being that we all lynch risk.nuke tomorrow.
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gg, go team mafia 
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Oh yeah and for the poison, we should just vote for elect a mayor. Reason is that 24hr/lynch should be used at MYLO and the alignment hidden lynch should be used at LYLO.
We could use majority+1 too, I think we can achieve 5 votes on risk tomorrow right? Nah I'll stick to mayor thing.
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I just realized that the image is Hypnotoad. LOLZ.
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Awesome - that blows this game wide open :-)
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I've mislynched toad in every single game we played exept Arkham where he could save himself by blueclaiming. And the time I decide to tread carefully that prick is mafia. Not fair.
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I don't think there has been a single player who hasn't expressed their desire to lynch risk.nuke. In fact the main resistance from yesterday's Toad lynch was the alternate risk.nuke lynch. Zephirdd why do you think that getting a majority will be difficult? Could you explain your line of thinking?
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On June 05 2012 06:44 risk.nuke wrote:
I've mislynched toad in every single game we played exept Arkham where he could save himself by blueclaiming. And the time I decide to tread carefully that prick is mafia. Not fair.
Don't worry, we'll help you atone for your sins 
I am going to vote for majority+1. I think it's unlikely we have a vig to shoot risk.nuke and he will almost certainly be the lynch target for tomorrow. We can do mayor election on day 4 and avoid doing 24 hour day cycle.
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Sounds good to me. Sbrubbles could we have your current thoughts on prplhz?
##Vote: 6 (Majority + 1)
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Fuck ya. Sorry Toad, but it had to be done.
We vote Majority +1 tomorrow.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Toad, risk.nuke, sbrubbles?? GG NO RE!?
I kid, but I'm serious. Only I'm joking.
I'm fairly certain we have a medic at this point. Protect me or else face ridicule at the end of the game
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Really nice analysis, so good I didn't even really understand it
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 05 2012 07:24 prplhz wrote:Really nice analysis, so good I didn't even really understand it
Cheer up! I'll let you take the lead on risk.nuke!
Dead scum! Rejoice!
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I'm making a bet, you won't lynch me tomorrow.
'Cause hangin' on the edge baby, that's where I feel comfortable'
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'cause you're going to claim medic?
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Maybe if you're innocent child.
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On June 05 2012 07:27 Sbrubbles wrote:
Woot! Gogogo Rad!
Could we have your current thoughts on prplhz?
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On June 05 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote:Could we have your current thoughts on prplhz?
You could, but I'd rather wait until the end of the night.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
or do you mean, the start of day 3?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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On June 05 2012 08:05 Radfield wrote:
or do you mean, the start of day 3?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iIZYR.jpg)
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On June 05 2012 06:57 slOosh wrote:
I don't think there has been a single player who hasn't expressed their desire to lynch risk.nuke. In fact the main resistance from yesterday's Toad lynch was the alternate risk.nuke lynch. Zephirdd why do you think that getting a majority will be difficult? Could you explain your line of thinking?
Idk, I remember someone saying that we wouldnt even have to use it at all. So I just went with the mayor. I guess we can kill risk.nuke with 5 votes nproblem.
will switch
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On June 05 2012 07:28 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:24 prplhz wrote:Really nice analysis, so good I didn't even really understand it Cheer up! I'll let you take the lead on risk.nuke! Dead scum! Rejoice!
Fak u, I led risk's lynch waaaay before it was cool. You wont give mah lynch to the purple boy D:
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Someone still needs to show a definitive case on risk. We are not going to LOL our way from this position by pushing whatever lynches happen to look decent. We need to filter Toad, and I still have yet to refilter risk.
What happens when risk flips town, or maybe even pops the innocent child(certainly another explanation for his play). We don't want to be caught with our pants down when that happens. Yes risk is probably scum, and yes we will probably be fine, but we're not going to throw away this position by relaxing.
So lets all go and reread the thread knowing Toad was scum, or at least reread his filter and glean what we can.
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Toad:
On June 02 2012 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:
A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me.
On June 02 2012 08:56 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok people I'm willing to lynch in general right now: Hiro, Prplhz, Navillus
In this first post Toad says that there is definitely a scum in between myself, Risk, and Navillus. However, a little while later after Radfield posts his case on Navillus (and a couple of other small posts by people), Toad decides that Hiro, Prplhz, and Navillus are his lynch candidates (has dropped risk.nuke from his list).
On June 02 2012 09:37 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 09:34 slOosh wrote:
Nah - let's get some thoughts on Sbrubbles. Both Navillus and risk.nuke have shown apathy and disinterest in the game and both are worth a lurker lynch. I want thoughts on Sbrubbles. I don't think a sbrubbles lynch is going to happen and I don't think it's helpful to cluster up the thread 2 hours short of the deadline when we need people to vote someone else...
After the "hiroprotagonist-HiroPro" business, Toad tries to end discussion on Sbrubbles.
On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
Toad says here that he's going to give his opinion on Sbrubbles (he never does this). Incidentally, it kind of makes sense now why Radfield/Kurumi felt so strongly about the "d2" thing. Didn't seem important to me as a quote, but it looks completely different in context (and knowing that he's mafia lol).
On June 03 2012 10:59 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We lynch Prplhz today Here's why: On May 30 2012 23:16 prplhz wrote:
[...]
It's very important for town that we know what role we give them today to eliminate any sort of confusion. If we don't know what role we give them, then they can just argue as if they had any role, and town will just argue along with them. While it's very hard, I think it's very very important that we get a majority+3 on their role so we are absolutely sure what they got. This is even more important than what they end up getting.
Tracker/Medic/Roleblocker combination sounds pretty good to me. What do you mean "without fear of the tracker caliming"?
@Radfield What do you mean "scum are going to lie about their votes anyway"?I consider that mafia agenda. "It is very important for town that we know what role we give to eliminate confusion"? Yeah we eliminate mafia confusion by telling them what they'll get so they can counter pick, On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
[...]
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? On June 01 2012 21:07 prplhz wrote:
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
[...]
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo. On June 02 2012 03:04 prplhz wrote:
I'm okay with lynching Sbrubbles.
[...] On June 02 2012 08:01 prplhz wrote:
I'm up for Toadesstern since Sbrubbles isn't happening. That's a lot of people he's willing to lynch without saying a thing about them except for wbg. The "case" on wbg was "WBG hasn't posted, therefore he has to be mafia because he doesn't care about the game" while at least half the players in this game had very few posts at that time. The rest is a bunch of mentions without actually saying why and I already said what I think about stuff like that: Looks like people testing watertemperature with their toes to check out what can get momentum without doing something themselves. Furthermore Navilus apparently was on his radar for not posting a lot, just like risk yet later on he says Nav not posting is a sign for townieness? Will come to that next but that's really odd. On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
@wherebugsgo I don't think that Navilus is scum. First, the guy has never played scum before. Second, his only contributions on day1 so far has been a post saying what he voted, and him calling you out. It doesn't look like he's just trying to avoid mod kill and it very much doesn't look like he's scum trying to hide with only 2 paltry posts during the whole day. I don't think first time scum will not do anything during the day than pick on a town wherebugsgo (but then again, are you town?) Moreover, in the last game I played with him he was also unavailable for a part of the game. You say that he didn't comment on the lynch, one thing that all scum knows to do at all times is have some sort of opinion on the lynch. I'd very much like to keep him around for now.
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? Navilus defense #1The reasoning here basicly is: "He never played mafia before. I think he would know better than to hide like that with only 2 posts." I'd consider that a contradiction. Everyone knows people who play mafia for the first time and what's the most frequent mistake those people make? They're not posting because they're scared and trying to hide to hard. At least that's how I have seen most people play their first time game as mafia. This defense makes no sense from a townie point of view no matter who nav was talking about in his two posts. On June 02 2012 05:42 prplhz wrote:
Read his town games, read his day0 play this game, first time scum mostly try not to stick out and he absolutely knows how to do this better than this. He is sticking out very much with his two measly posts and I very much doubt any scum would think that this would ever be enough not to get lynched. I expect him to get back and tell us why he's been playing so horribly on day1 but I don't think that he's scum right now.
I'm not saying he's new, I'm saying he's first time scum. Navilus defense #2Again. He says that first time scums mosty try not to stick out, as in they usually want to hide, yet he says "he absolutely knows how to do this better than this". How in the world do you know he can do better than this if he never played mafia before? How do you know he's not scared to post like most mafias are in their first game? Again, this defense makes so sense from a town point of view. On June 02 2012 05:44 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 04:43 wherebugsgo wrote:
[...]
I disagree with a Sbrubbles lynch for now because I think the way he has discussed things is not scummy.
His tone seems more like a townie talking about setup mechanics than a scum.
[...]
Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:27 prplhz wrote:
[...]
How do you feel that Sbrubbles has argued in a way that's not scummy, but even townie? Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 05:34 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for your question on Sbrubbles I don't even know what that means I'm really just asking if you can clarify what you said. Remember his posts from earlier? Sure wbg is not backing up a thing but he's giving his basic thoughts. Now look back a bit and check out the posts prplhz did when he wanted to hear oppinions / accused people. He said nothing, he simply mentioned the names except for the WBG "case". That's as hypocritical as it can get. On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus Probably the weakest explanation for a vote I've ever seen. "sup guys. THAT GUY IS TOWN SHUT UP.... Oh, I guess he hasn't said he's sorry for being afk so long. Probably means he's mafia"
Fancy conclusion: - Prplhz defending Nav was REALLY odd and I can't imagine someone making arguments like that from a town perspective. Yeah I know I used to use arguments like that as well. L comes to mind where I said something along the lines of "Palmar looks way to scummy to be scum, something's wrong here" but that's because the guy is called Palmar and not Nav. We're talking about some guy who never played mafia before and Prplhz defends him on the basis of "the guy would play better as mafia because he hasn't ever played mafia before"...
- Prplhz is testing grounds before saying something all the time. He keeps asking people "what do you think about X, Y or Z?" and never says something himself and something like 30 hours later he picks one guy he feels comfortable to push and votes him with 3 lines of explanation.
- The voteswitch is horrible. The reasoning, as already mentioning is the weakest I've ever seen and I'd say he did that because that way he can say "sup guys, I voted him to secure a lynch but didn't want to. Btw TOLD YA HE'S TOWN" for towncred.
Lynch Prplhz please, thanks.
Toad's giant big case on prplhz.
On June 05 2012 03:05 Toadesstern wrote:
a null and I can't really judge him because he hasn't posted yet...
The fact that he doesn't want to lynch me is nice though :3
Toad's opinion on risk.nuke
My conclusions from Toad's filter:
Sbrubbles is definitely worth looking at closely (he was one of the people trying to push a mislynch on me, has been extremely inactive and avoided most of the Toad-related stuff (came in late to say that risk.nuke is best lynch), and Toad avoided giving his opinion on Sbrubbles multiple times). Toad was similarly evasive on risk.nuke despite listing him very early on as possible mafia.
risk.nuke:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together. I posted additional reasons for why zephirdd is a good lynch. It was not a new case because zephirdd already had a case on him. On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
Lets just assume we don't have a medic instead of using that as an excuse to justify scum-kills. If any of you were scum, would you give town a medic? That's like sabotaging for yourself so can we please assume the scum did not sabotage for themself and did not give us a medic.
Radfield, since you've ignored my post. Why do you think they killed wbg?
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later. On June 05 2012 05:06 risk.nuke wrote:
As for lynches I'd like to lynch kurumi. If I can't get support for that I'm torn between lynching sloosh and sbrubbles.
I'm not going to go through posts from risk.nuke's filter individually because it's so short and everyone can just read the entire thing in like 2 minutes. I've spoilered the relevant posts, though.
risk.nuke has a habit throughout this game of suggesting lynch targets without ever giving any reasoning or thoughts on their posting behavior (hiro, sloosh, kurumi, sbrubbles). His biggest push is on zephirdd, but the reasons he gives are unrelated to actual behavior or posting. When I said this to him, he responded angrily and said that there was already a case on him, so no actual need to do such a thing. The thing is risk never lists which of the many cases/reads (myself, talismania, Radfield i think?) it is that he agrees with or which points specifically that he likes. This is not a townie response at all. Risk then soft-defends Toad by saying that he doesn't have a good read (despite Toad having a giant filter, multiple cases that he pushed, and numerous interactions with various people). And of course, risk has spent a large amount of time debating what WBG's death means. The thing about risk.nuke's filter that is so damning is that he never posts anything that I see as contributing to town. He darts in, gives a few unsubstantiated opinions, and then exits without having said anything of value. Unless he claims innocent child tomorrow, I want him lynched.
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One interesting thing I realized reading through the thread again is that toad never responded to this post from the beginning of N1:
On June 03 2012 06:03 talismania wrote:toadShow nested quote +On June 02 2012 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok we need to get people in here. It's 1 am for me and I don't know how long I'll be awake.
A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me. That's really not as convincing as people make it look and we have 3 hours left... Do you think risk is scum? You later backed off hiro when you found out he wasn't the hiro you thought he was, and navilus of course flipped town. What do you make of zephirdd's claim?
Which suggests to me that he did not feel like talking about risk.nuke (or zephirdd - or both) if he didn't have to. He replied vociferously to everyone else that asked him a question, and even posts that just mentioned him so I doubt he just missed it.
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It is a happy hour !
Risk would be an awesome vigilante target. Oh wait !
Well sorry for yesterday wasn't feeling too well , going to do some work today after short school.
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On June 05 2012 14:07 Kurumi wrote:
It is a happy hour !
Risk would be an awesome vigilante target. Oh wait !
Well sorry for yesterday wasn't feeling too well , going to do some work today after short school.
Are you really a vig, lol. Like really. Because then there's no point in voting "majority+1" and we should just do the mayoral election.
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On June 05 2012 14:12 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 14:07 Kurumi wrote:
It is a happy hour !
Risk would be an awesome vigilante target. Oh wait !
Well sorry for yesterday wasn't feeling too well , going to do some work today after short school.
Are you really a vig, lol. Like really. Because then there's no point in voting "majority+1" and we should just do the mayoral election.
Well sadly I am not a vig. Just giving hints and throwing stones at people.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
There's no Vig. Vig is like innocent Child(can confirm itself as town) yet with bullets. No way mafia give town that role.
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Guh - I'm trying to built a compilation risk.nuke case but I don't know where to start...
Hiro covered the basics so I'll try to hit the other points I see.
On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi).
Lynching for information. Direct contradiction in bold - he says if we don't lynch him we are hurting ourselves if he is town, and therefore the correct thing to do is lynch him (to determine alignment) in case he is town? I can't even ... bah!
Secondly is chasing red-herrings in the night kill. In his filter it shows him (jestingly or not)
On June 02 2012 07:24 risk.nuke wrote:
And hey, wbg thinks I'm scum so you should consider me confirmed townie.
So either he is wasting what time he has to post jokes, or he is contradicting himself by making light of WBG's scumhunting abilities yet considering them a strong point after the night kill.
Another point I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, but it's behavioral analysis (opposed to logical which I'm used to). He says prefaces the suggestion with "I think". Yet later on when he straight up cuts people down it shows that he is very confident in his ideas and what town should be doing, which is more inline with town risk.nuke's aggressive confident tone.
On June 04 2012 00:29 risk.nuke wrote:
He died brainiac, and it wasn't the flu.
...
@Hiro: Will I need to repeat every little thing so that your tiny brain can puzzle it together.
Very confident, very assertive. Such a quick switch in demeanor shows inconsistency, as if he was testing the waters with his initial post (where he holds a 'it was just a suggestion excuse' in his back pocket), and finding something safe to talk about starts cutting down people.
His thoughts on the Toad lynch?
On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later.
That's it. This is one of the most dominating discussion points D2. This is the only thing he says about Toad. He doesn't even provide nor push for his own "reads"
On June 05 2012 05:06 risk.nuke wrote:
As for lynches I'd like to lynch kurumi. If I can't get support for that I'm torn between lynching sloosh and sbrubbles.
Why would he expect support when he never made a case? Why would he expect it when he never pushes these reads? Why is he bringing this up when the whole town is discussing Toad, and especially when its so near deadline?
Conclusion: We see nothing in risk.nuke's filter which shows him valuing town interests. He keeps introducing red herrings which directly hurt town focus and thread atmosphere. This is beyond Zephirdd and Kurumi's blueclaims to draw shots - this is scum agenda.
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Sloosh, most of your post is jubjub logic.
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Cool. You confirming that I'm town?
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I'm confirming that your post is jubjub.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I'm not going to get much done here tonight. I'm fairly sure that risk is scum, but I'll look into it closely on Day 3. Fairly certain I won't die tonight, as I'm pretty sure there is a medic.
Medic, no WIFOMing, just protect me.
risk, I assume you claim you are innocent. Who do you think is scum or scummy right now? Right now you're almost certainly going to get railroaded tomorrow, so please give us some reasons to not lynch you.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
If there IS a medic, here are my reads so far:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz
Framer
Sbrubbles
Kurumi
Zephirdd
wherebugsgo
sloosh
Godfather
Hiropro[/spoiler]
As I stated earlier, I think mafia voted 2 RB and 1 Framer.
That leaves us with one scum amoung Sbrub, Zeph, Kurumi, sloosh. I lean town on both Zeph and Kurumi, though not super strong on either. Sloosh is probably town based on his actions yesterday, but it was apparant that one of risk or Toad were going down, so we have to assume the last scum was in full on bus mode. Anything else would be silly. Sbrubbles I have a null read on, but contrast that to WoF mafia where I was quite strongly Town on him by this point(and he was town).
I haven't done a full filter reread yet, so nothing is set in stone. If risk flips red that pretty much confirms prp and talis as being town, as there is very little chance that mafia would vote 3-0.
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Well I consider myself dead. I don't believe there is a medic. You are not surving tonight and the rest won't have an open mind tomorrow. (Not that I was feeling superconfident in persuading you in the first place, but with you dead and your last words "risk is scum" It will be tough)
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Why, I'm just some guy who admits he hasn't even refiltered you yet.
If not you, then who?
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There is one between sloosh and sbrubbles. I will tell you who tomorrow.
The other is between Hiro and Kurumi.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
You think Zephridd is town?
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@Sloosh, about prplhz, I still find his switch to Nav D1 scummy, but his defence from Toad was solid and with Toad flipping scum I'm pretty convinced he's town. After my initial doubts on him, I think Hiro is town. Zephirdd gives me a townish vibe as well.
risk.nuke:
I've said what I needed to say about risk in my case during D2. His posts since are just more of the same, but I wanna point this one out:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 05:06 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 00:59 Radfield wrote:On June 05 2012 00:23 risk.nuke wrote:
Lets just assume we don't have a medic instead of using that as an excuse to justify scum-kills. If any of you were scum, would you give town a medic? That's like sabotaging for yourself so can we please assume the scum did not sabotage for themself and did not give us a medic.
Radfield, since you've ignored my post. Why do you think they killed wbg?
How did I ignore your post? Which post are you even talking about, please show me. I'm not really interested in why bugs died. He's a good enough player that him getting shot N1 is fairly irrelevant. He's also the kind of player who has weak D1 reads, and then get startlingly accurate as the game goes on(as long as he doesn't get sidetracked). I also don't think scum realized medic was the strongest role we could have. On the surface it looks weak, as most medics miss, and it can't confirm townies or catch scum. Especially if they think they were getting roleblocker, then medic might seem like the least of the evils. I'm against lynching toad today. I don't have a good read on him and I think he will become easier to figure out later. Your resistance to lynching Toad is noted. Please state specifically which parts of my case you find strong or weak. Also, who is your alternative, still Zeph based off of WBG's accusations? ZephirddI'm starting to doubt my read on zeph. When I analyzed him logicaly I felt confident in my read. Today when I reread his filter I'm feeling. It feels as he is sincere. Especially his last posts. I'm starting to lean more to it's just bad play rather then scum-agenda.
Ignoring and other stuffWhat I ment with ignoring was that when I said that maybe "HEY JUST MAYBE" we should consider the reads of the guy who the mafia killed and see what he was on to you said nothing. I mean the "they killed wbg because of his status as a veteran" is weaker then weak and that goes without saying. He's not a better scumhunter then average. And saying he gets better as the game progress, that goes for everyone. If your case is he gets better compared to others later in the game, that is false. If you insist on this I can get game-links. Right now your view on the scum killing wbg is they played suboptimally. That is a joke and is the number one reason I mistrust you. Nor did they give us a medic. Not beeing able to shoot whoever they want is just setting themselves up for disadvantage. I'd guess they gave us a tracker and an innocent child. They absolutely didn't give us a vig. So did they give us 1-shot cop who confirms two townies or 1townie/1scum at any point in the game. The thing that makes an innocent child less powerfull in this setup is because with a known amounts of blues they can't counterclaim without going for a 50/50 so that make all blues powerfuller (exept child).
LynchesAs for lynches I'd like to lynch kurumi. If I can't get support for that I'm torn between lynching sloosh and sbrubbles.
Innocent Child is a stupidly good role in this setup. Why would he think there is one? And why try to divert the talk into mechanics at a time when discussion was very important to figure out the lynch?
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Day 3
"Hey! Im thirsty!"
*Brings Poison Bottle* "Feel free to finish it rawr!"
*glug glug glug* * buuuuuuuuuuuuuuur* "wut was tha-"
Oh the gloriousness of the occasion! Back in to the black portals the explorers were sleeping soundly c:
"afvasghsdgjaukhfj-"
in the morning
"well the drunk guy is dead at least"
"BUT!"
"Must kill Portal loving people and explorers in general"
"must kill fancy wordy people"
"must drink poison"
"wait what?"
(I have no idea what that is supposed to mean)
Radfield the vanilla townie was killed.
It is now Day 3. Majority + 1 is required for a sucessful lynch. With 8 players alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
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Oh, risk Still giving out lynch candidates with no reasoning at all. I like the choices too. They improve your credibility greatly.
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Well, fuck. Also nice predictions risk. Almost like you knew it was going to happen right?
and... hmm I guess there is no medic?
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Claim IC or die, risk.
##Vote risk.nuke
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Voting risk.nuke(Ha ninja'd you hiro!). Reasoning has been given and if you need more, just read risk's filter.
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On June 06 2012 04:27 risk.nuke wrote:
Sloosh, most of your post is jubjub logic.
You didn't say anything about my case. I feel left out
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Let's do this.
##Vote risk.nuke
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Turbolynch mode activate !
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Why I am lynching risk.nuke:
His weird comment on Zephirdd.
How he didn't have a read on Toadesstern but was confident that he'd get one later.
How he didn't try to participate in this game, even in face of his imminent lynch.
##Vote: risk.nuke
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Alrighty then,
##Vote: risk.nuke
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... we could talk about how we don't have a 1-shot cop, we don't have a vigilante, and we don't have a medic so we have a tracker and an innocent child?
We also have some poisons left:
24 hour day
Secret ballot
Hidden flip
Mayoral election
I think we should pick mayoral election for tomorrow and then consider having the innocent child claim. If we find someone else that people will agree is town then I don't think we should have the innocent child claim right away because an innocent child in LYLO could be devastating for scum. We should consider if there's someone else we can agree to elect and if not, then have the innocent child can claim for instant election. Talking about who we think is town might also give us a little more content to find the last scum. If risk.nuke flips scum then there's going to be zero scum influence on the election so we don't have to worry about that.
Also, if risk.nuke flips scum then hidden flip becomes a freebie. So does secret ballot. 24 hour day isn't going to be a problem if we ever get that far. So no more poison!
+ Show Spoiler +Also, am I the only one who thinks it's annoying that they're hosting Pick Your Poison and Pick Your Power at the same time and keeps clicking the wrong thread and thinking "since when did marvellosity play in my game?" 
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On June 07 2012 01:35 prplhz wrote:Also, am I the only one who thinks it's annoying that they're hosting Pick Your Poison and Pick Your Power at the same time and keeps clicking the wrong thread and thinking "since when did marvellosity play in my game?"
I openly encourage all players to "accidently" post in the other thread just to mess with them
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On June 07 2012 01:38 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 01:35 prplhz wrote:Also, am I the only one who thinks it's annoying that they're hosting Pick Your Poison and Pick Your Power at the same time and keeps clicking the wrong thread and thinking "since when did marvellosity play in my game?" I openly encourage all players to "accidently" post in the other thread just to mess with them
lynch zelblade!
and prplhz, I know you're disappointed <3
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Pew pew!
##Vote: risk.nuke
Everyone should be re-reading Radfield's filter and considering who the final scum could be, assuming risk is scum, because he is. Also something to consider is the votes (Radfield's last post has them). Going along with the 2-1 rb/framer idea, it means that there are 4 townies in each lot, which means the mafia role was randomized.
There is a chance that mafia have roleblocker and are holding back to introduce possible doubt on tracker claims we have, because even the possibility of a framer adds doubt. They could also have framer framing people I dunno. Framer can frame himself so if risk doesn't flip framer that's something to keep in mind. If he does we just track most suspicious person and if scum can't snipe him then gg.
I'm leaning mayoral poison because its probably good to have a full 48 hours to decide who is the last scum. So IC should just sit tight where he is until we get the mayoral business going, and even then it might be a good idea not to reveal, because if he reveals mafia have a smaller pool of people to shoot from and no doubt they are scared of getting tracked.
I'm of opinion that scum lost much of its thread presence with the Toad lynch and are now lurking and whatnot. Speculating that risk was offered as token sacrifice (because if lynch swung and Toad was saved then people would be less likely to doubt him and risk was already under heavy suspicions anyways). So I'm looking at you Sbrubbles! I want more content!
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On June 07 2012 01:35 prplhz wrote:... we could talk about how we don't have a 1-shot cop, we don't have a vigilante, and we don't have a medic so we have a tracker and an innocent child? We also have some poisons left: 24 hour day Secret ballot Hidden flip Mayoral election I think we should pick mayoral election for tomorrow and then consider having the innocent child claim. If we find someone else that people will agree is town then I don't think we should have the innocent child claim right away because an innocent child in LYLO could be devastating for scum. We should consider if there's someone else we can agree to elect and if not, then have the innocent child can claim for instant election. Talking about who we think is town might also give us a little more content to find the last scum. If risk.nuke flips scum then there's going to be zero scum influence on the election so we don't have to worry about that. Also, if risk.nuke flips scum then hidden flip becomes a freebie. So does secret ballot. 24 hour day isn't going to be a problem if we ever get that far. So no more poison! + Show Spoiler +Also, am I the only one who thinks it's annoying that they're hosting Pick Your Poison and Pick Your Power at the same time and keeps clicking the wrong thread and thinking "since when did marvellosity play in my game?"
I was thinking about this yesterday. I still find it so hard to believe that they would give us an innocent child... But since cop still hasn't claimed, I guess you're right.
Looking at the way the thread is right now, the last scum (assuming risk flips scum) likely tried to bus risk on day 2 and save Toad. Even if risk isn't scum though, the pool of scum is still probably in that group (tried to lynch risk on day 2, not Toad)
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Also, since no one claimed roleblocked we can assume that they have a 2-shot framer, and since two cycles have passed we can be kind of sure that he used both his shots. Since we don't have any other visiting roles and a night killing scum will always visit someone, our tracker is essentially a cop now. So make sure you breadcrumb everything for everybody else in case you die.
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On June 07 2012 04:57 prplhz wrote:
Also, since no one claimed roleblocked we can assume that they have a 2-shot framer, and since two cycles have passed we can be kind of sure that he used both his shots. Since we don't have any other visiting roles and a night killing scum will always visit someone, our tracker is essentially a cop now. So make sure you breadcrumb everything for everybody else in case you die.
This is not necessarily true. I pointed this out yesterday - if mafia got roleblocker they probably wouldn't use it at all, because using it on anyone non-mafia would result in a townie learning that there's a roleblocker and therefore that 2 of the framer voters are scum. Also consider that you're probably right about them giving town a tracker and innocent child (unless we have a really dumb medic and an equally risky scum team) - why bother with roleblocking in that situation when you only have 1 person out of 9 that you could possible affect? (The GMs never answered me if a roleblocker would be allowed to not use their power - if they had to use it then they could just use it on their scumbuddies.)
_________________
State of this game:
prp and hiro are likely town because of their interactions with toad. It would actually be really funny if they're the last two scum and toad just wanted to bus someone early and often so that two of them could win it in the endgame or something. But very unlikely.
sloosh and kurumi are wild cards. both voted toad, sloosh with a little more reasoning, kurumi more quietly. I think they should be nearer the end of lynch orders. Behaviorally, sloosh has been playing the town boyscout role, doing all the homework-y stuff like tabulating votes and cross-checking encryptions and such while kurumi has just stirred the pot and that all is null to me.
zephirdd, sbrubbles, and risk nuke have two scum among them. zeph and sbrubbles reacted basically the same way to the toad situation which is kind of weird (see their posts page 26). Either zeph posted what he did because he knew he needed to build distance between both himself and toad + risk, and sbrubbles just sheeped it as town, or sbrubbles saw what zeph did as a blueprint to copy for him to build distance etc etc. Both have some D1 points against them in that toad stated that he was against a zeph lynch and that sbrubbles followed toad on the hiropro lynch.
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Guh kinda wishing we picked 24hr so we can get this over with.
Sbrubbles who do you think last scum could be? (let's assume risk flips scum)
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Alright, since we still have a whole 26 hours to go, I propose a quick exercise. Providing at least a little bit of reasoning(no need for a full case), I want everyone to just point finger at who could be the last scum. One person only. Assuming, of course, that risk.nuke will flip scum(because he will).
My turn.
I say it is slOosh. He focus too much on Sbrubbles(who I don't see as scummy), but does nothing to push him day2 except ask for questions(which weakens his tunneling).
Go next!
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I won't be doing this. Since risk.nuke is pretty much guaranteed to be lynched, this is essentially like night time, except we haven't yet seen risk flip. I have a case on who I think the last scum member is and I will post it before night is over.
As far as your post on sloOsh, you will see that he articulates his reasons for suspecting Sbrubbles on day 1. Asking questions is not really alignment-indicative, especially for a player like sloOsh who asks a lot of questions both as town (LI) and as mafia (SoAF). Additionally, sloOsh was one of the first people to support Radfield's case on Toad. I see very little reason for mafia to support Toad's lynch at that point, when risk.nuke is a much better candidate to bus, or mislynch (in the unlikely case he is town).
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I don't get it Hiro. Why not post suspicion on someone? I want to know who you people find suspicious before risk's flip. It is important.
It's a way to keep track of town's mentality throughout the game, and a way to keep discussion going. I don't see a drawback in it.
Seriously, it's better than a dead game -_-
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The reason why I'm not posting it now is that it will not influence the lynch at all, but it does help mafia in their decision for the night kill.
Risk's flip does not affect my case at all, as everyone in the game has said that they want risk to be lynched.
While it is true that discussion has stalled, I don't think this will carry over at all as a mayor election will come up and the last mafia still needs to be found (assuming risk is scum).
I'll have my case and full list of reads out before the end of night.
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BTW, Kita made another mistake -_-", you need 6 votes to lynch someone w/ majority +1
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On June 07 2012 14:10 HiroPro wrote:
The reason why I'm not posting it now is that it will not influence the lynch at all, but it does help mafia in their decision for the night kill.
Risk's flip does not affect my case at all, as everyone in the game has said that they want risk to be lynched.
While it is true that discussion has stalled, I don't think this will carry over at all as a mayor election will come up and the last mafia still needs to be found (assuming risk is scum).
I'll have my case and full list of reads out before the end of night.
I agree with Hiro, this works like night time.
About tomorrow's poison, we'll have a better idea once risk's actually flipped, but I think we can choose mayor lynch. I don't think it will be necessary for IC to claim because with only one mafia left, I doubt that he'll try to run for mayor, but even if he does he'll be under major scrutiny. Tracker can consider claiming (if he feels it will help with defining the mayor lynch), because the remaining scum will have no way of counter claiming (since we'd have time to kill them both).
Bleulightz, I'm confused. Majority is players/2+1 now, meaning players/2+2 because of the poison?
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On June 08 2012 00:14 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 14:10 HiroPro wrote:
The reason why I'm not posting it now is that it will not influence the lynch at all, but it does help mafia in their decision for the night kill.
Risk's flip does not affect my case at all, as everyone in the game has said that they want risk to be lynched.
While it is true that discussion has stalled, I don't think this will carry over at all as a mayor election will come up and the last mafia still needs to be found (assuming risk is scum).
I'll have my case and full list of reads out before the end of night. I agree with Hiro, this works like night time. About tomorrow's poison, we'll have a better idea once risk's actually flipped, but I think we can choose mayor lynch. I don't think it will be necessary for IC to claim because with only one mafia left, I doubt that he'll try to run for mayor, but even if he does he'll be under major scrutiny. Tracker can consider claiming (if he feels it will help with defining the mayor lynch), because the remaining scum will have no way of counter claiming (since we'd have time to kill them both). Bleulightz, I'm confused. Majority is players/2+1 now, meaning players/2+2 because of the poison?
Here is a lesson, the majority for day 1 was]6 but majority means more then the minority so it was supposed to be 7, then kita kept repeating the mistake methinks, for today since the majority for 8 is 5, but since there is maj +1 so it is 6.
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We have 7 votes anyway, doesnt matter.
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Pshh forget this night nonsense people start talking now. Inherently the town is uninformed but has power of numbers, and the mafia are fewer in number but have power of information. With Toad dead and risk caught, there will be one scum left. There is no reason not to get all our reads out there in the open as scum manipulation is very little. We can really start to foster a good town atmosphere by bouncing thoughts and reads around because scum influence is so small.
So start posting. This is a bonus time of discussion. Seriously, do you think having all our reads in the open will help mafia more than it helps town?
The reason why I ask questions is basically because I want a better read on that person. You can see that in my filter (ctrl f "?"). For instance I'm pretty sure I've never asked Hiro a question (beside neutral D0 discussion) because I'm comfortable with my read on him.
Ask yourself - what is Sbrubbles thinking? What are his reads? And the answer is probably "I don't know" which can be remedied by asking him questions. Even with his last post what does it boil down to?
On June 08 2012 00:14 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 14:10 HiroPro wrote:
The reason why I'm not posting it now is that it will not influence the lynch at all, but it does help mafia in their decision for the night kill.
Risk's flip does not affect my case at all, as everyone in the game has said that they want risk to be lynched.
While it is true that discussion has stalled, I don't think this will carry over at all as a mayor election will come up and the last mafia still needs to be found (assuming risk is scum).
I'll have my case and full list of reads out before the end of night. I agree with Hiro, this works like night time. About tomorrow's poison, we'll have a better idea once risk's actually flipped, but I think we can choose mayor lynch. I don't think it will be necessary for IC to claim because with only one mafia left, I doubt that he'll try to run for mayor, but even if he does he'll be under major scrutiny. Tracker can consider claiming (if he feels it will help with defining the mayor lynch), because the remaining scum will have no way of counter claiming (since we'd have time to kill them both). Bleulightz, I'm confused. Majority is players/2+1 now, meaning players/2+2 because of the poison?
I don't want to talk now, here is a summary of stuff people already said, I don't understand this irrelevant topic.
He fits well into the scared newb scum role who is without direction. Its obvious that there are suspicions on him and it doesn't look like he wants to clear his name, under the false guise of "it will help mafia w/ night kills". I don't buy it.
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P.s. Don't buy a b.s. last minute claim from risk.nuke. I feel like he might do that and try to either lure out the real tracker, or if the tracker doesn't claim, then scare us into a mislynch. If he is IC ... I don't even want to think about that possibility.
P.p.s. I believe risk.nuke's thing is "always townie never not townie", i.e. he has never rolled scum before. He would also fit the role of new scum who is unsure of how to act now that Toad is dead.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On June 08 2012 00:17 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 00:14 Sbrubbles wrote:On June 07 2012 14:10 HiroPro wrote:
The reason why I'm not posting it now is that it will not influence the lynch at all, but it does help mafia in their decision for the night kill.
Risk's flip does not affect my case at all, as everyone in the game has said that they want risk to be lynched.
While it is true that discussion has stalled, I don't think this will carry over at all as a mayor election will come up and the last mafia still needs to be found (assuming risk is scum).
I'll have my case and full list of reads out before the end of night. I agree with Hiro, this works like night time. About tomorrow's poison, we'll have a better idea once risk's actually flipped, but I think we can choose mayor lynch. I don't think it will be necessary for IC to claim because with only one mafia left, I doubt that he'll try to run for mayor, but even if he does he'll be under major scrutiny. Tracker can consider claiming (if he feels it will help with defining the mayor lynch), because the remaining scum will have no way of counter claiming (since we'd have time to kill them both). Bleulightz, I'm confused. Majority is players/2+1 now, meaning players/2+2 because of the poison? Here is a lesson, the majority for day 1 was]6 but majority means more then the minority so it was supposed to be 7, then kita kept repeating the mistake methinks, for today since the majority for 8 is 5, but since there is maj +1 so it is 6.
Please ignore my rambling co-host again (I really need to start locking him up). As the game began with an error in the OP and mechanics in the game, such as majority +1 are based on the assumption that this error was valid, we won't change the setup midgame. 5 players are required for majority today.
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Might as well post my case now then. My full reads will be end of night though.
Case on Sbrubbles
On June 01 2012 21:09 Sbrubbles wrote:
The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built solely on meta. What is interesting is
that he makes his whole argument with basis on game mechanics (better yet, his opinions on game mechanics), which
would be the "safest" way for mafia to be pushing for a mislynch at D1. It feels a bit scummy, but I'm still mostly null on him.
The first thing that popped out to me from Sbrubbles's filter is this statement. Sbrubbles says here that Kurumi's case looks like a mafia one because it's based mostly on game mechanics. While this is going on Sbrubbles is pushing a case on me based entirely on me voting for GF instead of framer...
On June 02 2012 09:30 Sbrubbles wrote:
Bah ... I'm not sure anymore. Bugs/Toad/prlhz, why Navillus over risk.nuke?
On June 02 2012 10:24 Sbrubbles wrote:
I'm switching my vote to guarantee the Navillus lynch.
##Unvote: HiroPro
##Vote: Navillus
Sbrubbles makes a vote to guaruntee a lynch without ever giving his opinion on the person's play or whether or not they are scum???
Miscellaneous Evidence
There are a couple of other things about Sbrubbles's play that make me think he is mafia. He never offers actual substantiated reads about anyone except risk.nuke (who for reasons I already talked about, had to be bussed) and myself (who he attacked purely based on game mechanics and my voting record). His activity level was relatively high during setup and d1, when it's easy for mafia to blend in, but after that he's hardly said a word. And on multiple occasions, Toad avoided giving reads about Sbrubbles when directly asked. All of these lead me to conclude that Sbrubbles is likely the last mafia. And slOosh brings up good points also.
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Tomorrow when you discuss lynches. If you want my thoughts the two last scum are probably Kurumi and sbrubbles. Good luck town.
Oh and remember only vt's have been lynched so far. So blueclaim can force a 1-1 or confirm town. I recommend all of you give it some thought how and when you want to do the blueclaim. And make sure you do it right so you max your chances of confirming yourselves and giving scum a harder time to force a 1-1.
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you better not be town or your d2 performance has been inexcusable
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Why do you give useful advice.... Please tell me that you are not town.....
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i don't know if this is really all that useful. look as if he's just messing with us
at least i hope so ...
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Well i wanted to roleclaim tomorrow. Because that's pretty much guaranteed win if risk is scum.
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... but instead you're doing it now? why is this guaranteed win?
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I started of trying to do something analyzing wbg, I was shot down by you guys and your "hey scum is probably playing suboptimally", I facepalmed and lost my motivation. Then I gently gently gently soft-defended the person who flipped scum. I'm saying that because No I did not defend toad. I said I disagreed to lynching him that day because of my previous history with him I wanted to take it slower and try to get a grip on him. I wasn't posting a bunch of reasons and arguing heavily for his release. Which is what I became accused for even though nobody said it and nobody bothered to check for themselves.
My hope was if Radfield would refilter me and see atleast some doubt before he would inevitably die that night. Today there wasn't much point in defending myself. I could never save myself and in this scenario where there was NO chance of saving myself. I could start questioning you why you wanted to lynch me, defending myself and debating with you. It wouldn't had saved me and it wouldn't had helped you find scum. So I've just been sitting here reading ALOT trying to find the last two scums so that I could help you as best I can.
And in response to. You better not be town. Fuck you zombies.
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On June 08 2012 09:25 prplhz wrote:
... but instead you're doing it now? why is this guaranteed win?
? I didn't roleclaim now. I said that if risk is scum, then I would have wanted to roleclaim tomorrow because that would give us 1 or 2 confirmed townies in addition to the people who are already strong town reads
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Are you getting confused by me saying "i"? I mean for everyone.
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meh if you gave up in advance and didn't even try then you played bad in my opinion.
i don't even know what "fuck you zombies" means.
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Night 3
Did someone just....
DIE!?
"Nah I'm alive :D"
"So, how's it go-"
"Oh well, who shot him o_o"
*sees someone with a shotgun*
"Why did you bring it anyway o_o"
"cuz I like brains on the floor!"
"wat"
"Oh they're simply delightful!"
"atleast, not that kind though"
risk.nuke the vanilla townie has been lynched.
Send kita and me actions asap (meaning: before the next deadline)
also vote for a poison please :3
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sigh. I will have my full list of reads by the end of the night. Please read my case on Sbrubbles.
It is very unlikely that we have a medic. Therefore, after tonight we will have only 2 days left, both of which will be lylo.
The poisons left are secret ballot, hidden flip, 24 hour day, and mayoral election. 24 hour day hurts us and should never be used. Secret Ballot should be used when we have 1 mafia left maybe, but not tomorrow as we want to see the voting. Hidden flip does not hurt us at all, as if the game goes on, we know that mafia was lynched.
All of that being said I think we should have a mayoral election tomorrow. Why? Because tomorrow is I believe the right time to roleclaim. Which will either give us 2 confirmed townies or a very easy lynch to choose between. If mafia does not counterclaim, the mayor should be one of the 2 confirmed townies (or innocent child if we have one). If mafia does counterclaim, we either have an innocent child or we have certain people who I think everyone should have as town reads (I will name who I think these are in my end-of-night post) as a mayor. In these scenarios, I believe that having a mayoral election is actually a benefit, instead of a poison. So I think the poisons should be mayoral election tomorrow and then hidden flip the next day.
As for why not do it the other way (hidden flip tomorrow and then mayoral election the final day), I think that is a bad idea as the number of strong town reads/ blue roles we have alive will only go down.
##Vote: Mayor Election
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What. the. fuck.
I will have a lot to talk post game. What the fuck risk. What the actual fuck.
We waste the whole day 2 thinking "hey we lynched scum". Instead of you trying to find a way to defend your ass, you just stay shut until the last few minutes?
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K wtf. U'd think u would play well, but Rarely you see something like that. Until the game is over, My head will be pounding. I think i thought about Something. So let me Catch Up on a few stuff, Maybe i'll find something good show it the next day if i'm alive.
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On June 08 2012 02:19 slOosh wrote:
P.s. Don't buy a b.s. last minute claim from risk.nuke. I feel like he might do that and try to either lure out the real tracker, or if the tracker doesn't claim, then scare us into a mislynch. If he is IC ... I don't even want to think about that possibility.
P.p.s. I believe risk.nuke's thing is "always townie never not townie", i.e. he has never rolled scum before. He would also fit the role of new scum who is unsure of how to act now that Toad is dead.
hmmmmmm
Imagine if risk had claimed within the last 24hours? Like, we wouldn't buy a claim anyway, but why set up this? Also, how can he be so sure that the game has a Tracker and an IC?
This post in specific looks incredibly fishy.
agh, I hate when I push for a lynch so hard and it ends up being a mislynch.
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this is close to VE revenge killing BC day 1
anyway I feel like lynching into Radfield's list might be a good idea.
The thing is, he was quite set on it being 2-1 in favor of Roleblocker, where it might be the opposite. Sbrubbles is a good lynch for tomorrow (or a good shot today for vigilante who I guess doesn't exist and would come in handy..) then we might go like me-sloosh-think about roleblocker voters
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@Kurumi Why do you think that Sbrubbles is a good lynch?
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##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
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QFSVL IHAKI QOFEP KHNFO EKOGG RTNSO FWLVE CBNER XQXDO NCUAR UVVVW
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XXJVA KBNEG RABEP GCSDD VJOFS HMUDN BVTCN MMXUX GNXDA MLUOP PXLBQ
DJANX EREOH JTASL WXOGH MBKHW JGNEF TJTWQ KUIEL CAOPK YYYYY
##### End encrypted message
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On June 08 2012 20:05 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi Why do you think that Sbrubbles is a good lynch?
Easy elimination off my reads.
Add a short filter, no cases pushed, no mention of Toad or Talismania in the entire game
NEVER VOTED TOAD, HE ACTUALLY NEVER VOTED ANYONE THAT DAY WHAT THE FUCK WHY HE IS ALIVE
On June 02 2012 10:16 Toadesstern wrote:
got ninja'ed
About sbrubbles: I'll tell you once d2 has started for obvious reasons, sry.
never delivered
this
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rawrwarawrawrawrawrrrawwrwawrawrawrawra
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Guh what a mess ...
Well we know that risk.nuke is town, and therefore the D2 lynch looks much more clear cut.
Toad was getting lynched and there was a good amount of resistance and people trying to deflect it onto risk.
People should reread from Radfield's case with that perspective. Along with that:
Roleblocker
Navillus
talismania
toadesstern
radfield
risk.nuke
prplhz [null-vote]
Framer
Sbrubbles
Kurumi
Zephirdd
wherebugsgo
sloosh
GF
HiroPro
Unless one or both talismania and HiroPro are scum (I doubt it), mafia have the roleblocker, which means that tracker's results are valid. Most likely they have been withholding their action to cast possible doubt on any claims. There is a good chance that they might start using roleblock since this is out, or even claim to be roleblocked.
In any case after rereading thread with risk's town flip, I find myself agreeing with risk's reads on Kurumi and Sbrubbles to the degree that I would post their names in bold red. If I was tracker (start WIFOMing you smelly scum) I would track them.
Will post a full case before deadline.
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I find it funny you haven't coloured your name.
then, risk.nuke's read was just blabbering I am scum.
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Yea I wish he fleshed out his read with analysis and such but whatever, he's dead and I'm not so here's to a case at the eleventh hour.
Didn't colour in my name so everyone else can use it. I'm thoughtful like that.
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On June 08 2012 20:20 Kurumi wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ GPMKA HWRAD AFMCL JVBIU QELRU HVDEK MVDCM CQNGW NIOUN WOGQC QFSVL IHAKI QOFEP KHNFO EKOGG RTNSO FWLVE CBNER XQXDO NCUAR UVVVW NODAM DCJFL DBOLF ROBBM PPLGS BGUPL DWPAB HKIUR GHIXK MHUOS GIFLN GULRG GQDMS SMPHO IHORU HWWDW PFRUI FBBVA QIGQQ WDEQG HDQIC SGEJV OQHLA VBNTQ QHWTW VBXQU KNKTU TBQKS TCRMN HLBKO GJABD KTOKI OUVLE FFWXM ABWUK OESAB PWBMI RRWGJ UACQB RDAGG SIULP WHOFX UASQV WMAHL SBSRJ CWSNB LJOIM UIUQR SPWIT RVISI XESQW BCHPH LPROI XHHPG BQITD TPXBK FXAIU HQIGV WXFFJ FVXSF MEAAL XITFX RILQT OPWGL QUIWV HSETO FGSQD AGGWM KMOOO UKUCU FXUAU RISRJ SJHFF IHXXK XCELU PKETL DCISC GHOCA KKHAI XUXKT MVJKE OCURQ RFFRK WCOFD LFXJB MSMTX MQIVB IIKJF OVOLS TIVGD UXLKG ALPQN LKHMH VSVLU OTKVQ RXOBB OXQJQ MPLBL BGTIQ MELGJ RAUGW KUOHT JBMPF ATTHI APWTM ICCMM PCMTS FPUVE OLBSE ECSIW GUOLF MBHDS BMBEI GKGNC QJEDB MVJCV OWSHA CAANO LPPVO JPHMR KKRDI FVXXL UIXSX GEFDJ GOVXJ QQQMJ FNOXV ROJQP NFNFK AXXLL TBSUG OHUWI HESLM ETTNR OCXOM QJMBO PQFNA HURWX CDCWT GSBOU JWLAC WFVMA SVHHP NLSPM WUFLF USILW LAVOK WVAMD ACJRA EIWGL VOXLJ NRJPL LIOMM IRMLI DNLUA UEPKT HVKXW VHBAD EGCWT NSGGK COSBJ ALMLK COHTT NAEAN HKPNR DMNKQ EOOBC LFOWJ JNQPI QMRIJ REULH ASCVL VVRFG SLQJF JHRPM RJCBK RMKAB WNATN AMNGE WGIRK NPTEA OLGPK AOXWE RWHJA QNUOX EMOXU NMKWB MEEFB GSSUD OWADJ ABPJC PXUPM CJUVS DDVTD RGBJT FFHPE DQSAK DOBNW PXJXS UMKWA KLRUJ RQRNO LLWAO TWUPP ANTRB XBMSG SPLCT NVDOR BALGE AKADF TBAWU DWJXW FMXQX RBHUA KKGAV VPGNB FKECG NENHR DSCND MAFHS LOQSD TCFIH UITLD JIWXW IEXON PALXS TFGOQ JMTPU SLQAX DQDHK TTNJF BJMUW JFWVV BJDDO UAWFQ KPFMF TWXAF SIPXN KNPUC VLUBU DGIBI RKUME VCAMD BSVLL HAUBC NTJOW DNJKM PPORA NCIOC HRIFF TUVMS RWSVA XORXO HALLM AFGCH TMWAD TGEXJ OVCNH LMXTD DSCON ILJRV TXREE KGCJL IXASC HIDLK MWIHH TQJXF XKDCC DVKDF ISVUN CVRKV NRJED NAHDX XRQGI OSQGU FMQIX NUNQS LKTPE HETRW JHMMW PJSVM PEBOQ MFMWS INJKX PHPBU IUAOW UAGIH MWSQR VOFQF IVIOA FUJFU UMMOA GBJBR GRITR MSTVD FUSGM GFXVU GSQXW XFUWJ JUKOW BRITG FEDUF RKPFQ VHPBJ LFTDL AGHBT PACVF XHXWP VKESA AADRN MXWCW NAHSA TIUIL MJQDV LVRDM IBWTW BSOHO HFSXR DEBGF OEDJO BHGGE GQRWH BFPCL VOQPJ IGCNO MHFUA UFUPD VPHIH PWHSL CBDRE NUODH LECLS LDALP PDPHE VPKVU WCHXT XJVHE SVFHH HTWCG FDWGH UVXCP BXRPP NJTNR WLCSA LDORP SCWID NSLDX FNWSC SLWXU VGXPD VJNFE GOAHM HOHUO QRVFW RFOJM NGKLU RTNSU BIHCU VDJCD LMSTI TOPEX LBUSI OASRM UHKVG WDISJ OVRLO MEAQK KEWXH SXVNP MBMRN NJIBJ GUOJI TSVFS SKRLU LOCFX JVTAB JBFME LIHKU VFTEG SQJRM FIRPR KBQSL JWFLE OOOFR TGFHP UJIHI QBRMT OUJNT AOFLB RFIDT EFEGM APDMM BCHTQ IKGXM TRBQK PDOSA LIECC UFCDW DINJE HNKSV GOWEX FXELU MOVKT REMDF WUCCH CCHKU GVQAA XXJVA KBNEG RABEP GCSDD VJOFS HMUDN BVTCN MMXUX GNXDA MLUOP PXLBQ DJANX EREOH JTASL WXOGH MBKHW JGNEF TJTWQ KUIEL CAOPK YYYYY ##### End encrypted message
texanstyle
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I get an error. Can you just post the original thing.
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Since it's LYLO tomorrow, innocent child should claim right away so we can focus on nailing scum.
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If I die tonight, lynch into sbrubbles and zephirdd.
-Both put some pressure on hiro (sbrubbles more so D1) as did toad.
-Both said toad was scummy but that risk.nuke was a better alternative. Their posts are strikingly similar.
-Toad never commented on sbrubbles like he said he would; toad also openly stated he thought lynching zephirdd was a bad idea, but gave no reason why (on D1).
-Zeph's fake blue claim and retraction makes little sense at first but given that innocent child + tracker is likely it actually makes a lot of sense. He couldn't keep the blue claim up or it would come back to bite him later.
-Sbrubbles has simply done nothing the whole game, aside from pushing hiropro. Everyone else has either contributed or been at the wrong end of toad's finger.
Relevant quotes:
+ Show Spoiler +HiroPro On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote:On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather). Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB. Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk. I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over. If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd. On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote:
Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote? On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? On June 02 2012 07:00 Sbrubbles wrote:First of all, one thing we've got to remember is that we can only afford 1 NL, and it's better that we use it up later and not sooner. If worse comes to worse, with no NL and no doc saves, we may reach a day 5 mylo, which should be NL followed by lylo day 6 (with the plus side that we can pick and waste whatever poison we want day 5, since it will be NL). Lynching Nautillus would be going for a lurker lynch and I don't think we have to resort to that yet. Also, between lurkers, I'd rather lynch risk.nuke, whose only contribution was to throw dirt and dissapear without any explanation: + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. Hiro simply hasn't posted anything since back then. His behaviour was reasonably active on D0, so I don't buy that it wasn't clear to him "that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker". His case on Zephirdd was that Zephirdd hadn't contributed to the discussion, though Zephirdd was asking questions, like Sloosh was doing, which is a reasonable way to get discussion going early on. Hiro's filter before that case, though, consisted of just as little discussion, except for mechanics talk, which mafia can also do. He is playing scummy and we should lynch him today. ##Vote: HiroPro@Sloosh: The point is not that he voted GF, but that he voted GF while saying that he preferred framer over roleblocker (and changed his vote from roleblocker not to framer, but to GF). Defending zephirdd: On June 02 2012 10:38 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2012 10:24 HiroPro wrote:
Navillus: I think most of the points that Radfield talks about in his case on Navillus are correct. Navillus did not contribute much during the setup phase and he has barely said anything on day 1. In the post where he votes, Navillus's behavior is really strange. He votes for Zephirdd but yet at the same time expresses concern that Zephirdd's behavior may be indicative of a newer player. Not only is Navillus unwilling to go through Zephirdd's profile and check out his game history, but he is also voting for someone who he seems to be personally unsure of....
Sbrubbles: If his reasons for voting for me are what he really believes (which appears true for me), then he looks town to me. He contributed thoughts of his own during setup and seemed generally straightforward and open today. I am not willing to vote for him right now.
I would like you to answer this question, though Sbrubbles. I can understand why you did not vote for Zephirdd based on my case (You think I am scum), but why is it that you completely ignored the case that talismania brought? I pointed this out before along with my feelings on the flaws in your reasoning regarding Zephirdd, but you ignored it.
If what prplhz and Radfield say regarding Zephirdd's status as a blue is correct, then he is not a good lynch for today. I will expect more from him tomorrow, though. Radfield's case on Navillus is solid - I am voting for Navillus.
Vote: Navillus Of talis' case on Zephirdd, I just didn't see it. First and third parts are just Zephirdd attacking using meta-accusations (which 9 times out of 10 I ignore) and second part was pressuring you (who I also wanted to pressure). He was attacking everyone, but at least it looked like he was trying to get the ball rolling. + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 13:01 talismania wrote:If both truly are red herrings, they're likely good things for scum to try and latch onto and drive momentum towards. With that in mind, consider zepphird: First he kind of fishes around on Radfield: Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss. Then he drives the HiroPro story a bit: Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote:
Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Then, after no one else is jumping on Radfield, he jumps off and hints at looking at Kurumi (who made the Radfield case): Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?
I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.
Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers. There's almost too much of it to be true but on first blow, to me, it is indicative of scum trying to get a feel for the way winds are blowing in the town, hence the FoS. On June 02 2012 08:09 Toadesstern wrote:
Ok we need to get people in here. It's 1 am for me and I don't know how long I'll be awake.
A zephird lynch still looks awful for me. Hiros voting him, risk is voting him, navillus is voting him. There's bound to be a mafia within those 3 and Kurumi and talis are nulls for me. That's really not as convincing as people make it look and we have 3 hours left... On toad and risk.nuke: On June 04 2012 10:53 Zephirdd wrote:Hey guys I'm back. skimmed through the thread but I grasped the idea. First of all, I love Toad's AtE. I used that on Sleeper Cell II and we ended up in a draw(when it should have been an obvious scum win T_T). AtE = Appeal to Emotion Different games are different; If Radfield finds reasons to push Toadesstern every game, he is right to push Toadesstern every game. However I disagree on the "scumslip": Saying "see you on day2" isn't indicative of alignment at all in my opinion. It's not a slip, it's not "knowing you will live". It's just saying it. However, other points still stand: Toadesstern's cases aren't good. They fit the scumagenda. Saying HiroPro had "basically claimed mafia", the wbg case, etc. I don't think Toad is the right lynch target right now though. Have you guys seen risk.nuke? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340727&user=76576^his amazing filter. 1. Read it(it's short guys, you probably would read it faster than you could read Radfield's case on prplhz) 2. Search for anything that makes sense from a town perspective 3. Laugh at it 4. Vote him In case it's not obvious, what you find in this filter is blatant sheeping, lack of substance and terrible logic for pushing a mislynch(which would be my lynch). Besides, his lack of activity is gigantic; Not only that, but he is not showing his overconfidence of his town self. I mean, he usually just does whatever the f* he wants, throws accusations at people and show confidence. Here he is sheeping people and pointing fingers at everyone(look at his hiro/sloosh/zephirdd post). Lynch risk! On June 04 2012 20:25 Sbrubbles wrote:Hey guys, I'm here. Weekend was a bit crazy for me. Lemme comment on the current topics: On prplhz's case, I dissagree that his argument, on making sure mafia knew they were getting roleblocker so that we'd be sure of what they have, was scummy. I still think it is wrong, but I saw merit in Rad's case for it. Prplhz posting D1 (pre-Nav switch) was null to me (he pressured wbg based on meta and voted for me without much of an argument). Not the best way to conduct discussion by far, but it didn't feel like he was actively trying to mislead. I do think his Nav switch was funky though. His argument boils down to "I want a lynch. I didn't want to before because the last game he lurked, came back saying he was sorry and was town. Now he doesn't look like he's sorry". + Show Spoiler +On June 02 2012 09:02 prplhz wrote:
Blues always say stuff like "It's really not a good idea to lynch me." and "Trust me on this one." and "Town shouldn't lynch me."
I don't know how I manage to miss it all the time.
I'm most likely joining a Navilus lynch because I want a lynch Before, he was just being afk and his day0 actions didn't look too different from everybody else. I played with him before when he was town and afk, and when he came back he was really sorry about it (and wrote a huge post explaining exactly why he was afk). He doesn't look remorseful at all here, that post looks like he wants any sort of heat off of him and hopes that I'll just keep defending him 'cause that's what I did before.
Well I'm not gonna. I'm not all convinced about this but it's the best we can realistically achieve today I think.
##Unvote Sbrubbles
##Vote Navilus Thinking on Toad, I agree with most of Rad's case. It was strange him suddenly calling wbg scum D1 (without an explanation, after treating him as null) and that it was odd for him to be focusing so much on the fact that prplhz defended Nav. I don't see "see you D2" as a scumslip. Right now I'm leaning more scum on Toad than on prplhz, but, that said, I think risk.nuke is our best lynch for today: 1) His D1 is comprised of accusing a total of 4 people, without explanations, + Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 22:02 risk.nuke wrote:
I am pleased with radfield and I no longer want to make radpie.
On the other hand I believe we could vastly benefit from shortening hiro by a head, turning sloosh into slush and murdering zepphird. On May 31 2012 02:54 risk.nuke wrote:
Dearest Kurumi, I am Mr. Lovett. lets make some Radpie. 2) Followed by him pushing Zeph during N1. This smells of a scum push because 1) his reasons aren't clear (he poses the Zeph lynch as both an information lynch and a scum lynch) and 2) uses the mafia kill, which is a minefield of wifom, as his primary argument (using it as an additional argument is doable, but this is not the case), which, actually, is the only argument he chooses to discuss. + Show Spoiler +On June 03 2012 23:50 risk.nuke wrote:
I think we should lynch zephirdd for two reasons.
1. It will shed light on the voteswitch. It is infact very important that we learn zephirdds aligntment or we'll just stab ourselves in the foot if he turns out to be town.
2. Wbg was for lynching 3 people. Myself, Navillus and Zephirdd (And kurumi who he might not have pushed for because he didn't think he could get him lynched). Wbg was killed which indicates that the mafia believed he was on to something. Knowing that I am town, Navillus is town that leaves Zephirdd (and Kurumi). Also, @Radfield, Show nested quote +On June 04 2012 05:19 Radfield wrote:
Sbrubbles, you mentioned that Hiropro preferred framer to godfather on D0, but I don't see it. Care to help me out?
I mentioned he preferred framer to roleblocker, not to godfather.
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I am fairly sure that Sbrubbles is mafia. Please read my case if you didn't already do so. And the fact that risk.nuke agreed only bolsters my belief. In terms of my other reads, I'm confident in sloOsh being town. Toad made such a hard push on prplhz and I was leaning town from his play before that in general, so I think he is town.
Roleblocker
Nav
Radfield
risk.nuke
Framer
wherebugsgo
in question:
sbrubbles - framer
kurumi - framer
zephirdd - framer
talismania - RB
sloosh - framer
2 people from the above group are mafia and thus their votes do not count. If it's 2 framers who are lying, then we should definitely have a roleblocker. Thing is, no one has been roleblocked. If that is the case tomorrow also, then we probably have a framer. If we have a framer, that means talismania is mafia, as it is impossible for there to be a framer if talismania is telling the truth. Thing is I don't think he's mafia at all. Mafia might be hiding the fact that they have a roleblocker as they don't feel it's valuable to use. Probably best to trust Radfield's read, there's nothing except the vote count that makes me think talismania is scum, and I had a slight town read on him early on.
Kurumi and Zephirdd are kind of hard for me to read. I think last scum is between them. Oh, I think Zephirdd's reasons for thinking slOosh is scum are bad, btw. Leaning towards Zephirdd as scum.
If I die, I think the best course of action is to: everyone roleclaim, use whatever info you get from that, and lynch sbrubbles.
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P.s. I got no written out case on Kurumi, it was a hunch. I just wanted to see where the night hit went. I still think Sbrubbles is scum (since D1).
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Day post incoming shortly
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Day 4![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_u7AC7SEDXI8/TSPMOkl0kzI/AAAAAAAAAPg/LyeCu3c977g/s1600/excellent-very-cute-baby.jpg)
Following the death of risk.nuke, the town was full of despair. Their numbers became fewer and fewer as the mafia team picked them off one by one. Zephirdd was the latest victim in a series of brutal murders. Hope was nearly lost, when a child's laughter broke the silence. Everyone looked upon slOosh's face and became inspired to fight for a better tomorrow.
zephirdd the vanilla townie has been killed.
slOosh the innocent child has appeared.
A mayoral election has been announced for the next cycle. You have 48 hours.
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Hey guys I'm the Innocent Child. I breadcrumbed my role here
On June 09 2012 11:18 kitaman27 wrote:
slOosh the innocent child has appeared.
Vote for me and I will lynch Sbrubbles and we can spend the rest of this day finding last scum.
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On June 09 2012 08:39 HiroPro wrote:
I get an error. Can you just post the original thing.
It translates to
+ Show Spoiler +Zephirdd is vigilante. Sloosh is tracker. Prplhz played quite good town game. Hiro too. Sbrubbles and talismania are scum. Talismania is much more likely to hold the role though. Yeah I know I basically stopped playing after N1... Sorry about this guys. I've read the thread but couldn't get any thoughts grouped together. Talismania is a really good player, in Space Station I got him as Town really fast D1, I was so sure in my read (which was correct, obviously) I gave him my vet power. This game... He never pushes a lynch himself. He is in the backstage of this game. If you are still thinking this balance vet thing, there you go. Talismania+Toad = 2 good players for scum and Sbrubbles as an add. Rad and WBG for Town. I am not good, just lucky sometimes and I have plenty of pebbles to throw around. Scum were setting up my lynch from the very beginning and wbg was only helping them for some reason. Probably bored too. Sloosh talks a little too much about Tracker and he slips about his existence in his last post. Tomorrow it's 3v2, your last chance. Win Town.
While I don't agree about the vet balance thing (in the sense that I will never consider it a legitimate analytical tool), I do agree that talismania is worth a really good look into (like I consider him a top candidate for 3rd scum material).
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Hm, I'm not sure about that breadcrumb. It looks a bit fishy. And there's no way slOosh looks like that picture
So we obviously elect slOosh. I agree with lynching Sbrubbles today.
Zephirdd is obviously not scum now lol. But I'm not sure about Kurumi being scum tbh. I was expecting a prplhz kill today, and it kind of looks to me like Zephirdd being killed just sets up a Kurumi lynch. I need to go over talismania's filter again and look at his previous games. I do remember noticing that he didn't make any real cases or reads - he spent most of his time doing connection stuff.
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Oh and I think our last blue should claim. What do you say, slOosh?
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On June 09 2012 11:42 HiroPro wrote:
Zephirdd is obviously not scum now lol. But I'm not sure about Kurumi being scum tbh. I was expecting a prplhz kill today, and it kind of looks to me like Zephirdd being killed just sets up a Kurumi lynch. I need to go over talismania's filter again and look at his previous games. I do remember noticing that he didn't make any real cases or reads - he spent most of his time doing connection stuff.
I was also intrigued by the Zephirdd kill. First thing I noticed was how talismania gets off the hook by not having to push Zephirdd. Second is perhaps them fearing a blue claim since process of elimination is so strong right now (e.g. imagine if zephirdd was IC. Then who are scum gonna push?), or maybe they were planning to lynch me or something before I revealed IC. Good food for thought but best not dwell on it too long.
On June 09 2012 11:43 HiroPro wrote:
Oh and I think our last blue should claim. What do you say, slOosh?
Mmm. I've been thinking this one out. Right now we are in 4-2 situation. I'm lynching Sbrubbles so it's gonna be 4-1. It's 4-1 with one confirmed town, and one mafia remaining. Since it's only 1 mafia left, they have to carry out the kill, and therefore tracker is good as golden (barring possible framer). Tomorrow we use secret ballot since there will be one scum remaining, and therefore it will be harmless.
I'm thinking we can wait on the claim as we are lynching Sbrubbles today and therefore have ~72 hours of discussion, 24 in which we will know if Sbrubbles was a power role (or town in which case game ends right there). Tracker should consider heavily if claiming will benefit town right now (keeping in mind voting records), because keeping him hidden is really strong against mafia.
Maybe if you tracked someone who isn't Sbrubbles visiting someone. E.g. if you tracked me visiting it means scum have framer = either Hiro is scum or Kurumi is town.
In any case I'm leaning talismania as final scum somewhat. Best thing we can do right now is be totally open with our reads - we can really establish ideal town atmosphere and drive discussion. Talis if you are town you should come in fast with your updated reads.
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On June 08 2012 20:20 Kurumi wrote:
Translated from encryption
Zephirdd is vigilante. Sloosh is tracker. Prplhz played quite good town game. Hiro too. Sbrubbles and talismania are scum. Talismania is much more likely to hold the role though. Yeah I know I basically stopped playing after N1... Sorry about this guys. I've read the thread but couldn't get any thoughts grouped together. Talismania is a really good player, in Space Station I got him as Town really fast D1, I was so sure in my read (which was correct, obviously) I gave him my vet power. This game... He never pushes a lynch himself. He is in the backstage of this game. If you are still thinking this balance vet thing, there you go. Talismania+Toad = 2 good players for scum and Sbrubbles as an add. Rad and WBG for Town. I am not good, just lucky sometimes and I have plenty of pebbles to throw around. Scum were setting up my lynch from the very beginning and wbg was only helping them for some reason. Probably bored too. Sloosh talks a little too much about Tracker and he slips about his existence in his last post. Tomorrow it's 3v2, your last chance. Win Town.
Kurumi you can become hero of town if you are town. It's 4v2 right now and I really don't follow your logic on why Zephirdd would be vig who didn't shoot risk n1 (since he was first to push him). In any case Radfield had you slightly town at a later time than when he said he thought talis was town. So please talk more about talis and we can compare notes to see if you are just bluffing scum or tired town who still has been putting effort into the game.
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Ok, I have read through Kurumi's filter, Talismania's filter, and the past couple of days.
First, Kurumi's vote on day 2 does not make sense from a mafia perspective. He votes for Toad very early at a time when a risk.nuke lynch was still possible. And it doesn't look like a bus.
Second, talismania votes in a very strange manner - he votes for Toad right after prplhz says that he is going to hammer on Toad, but before prplhz can cast his vote. To me this looks like talismania is trying to claim credit for the Toad lynch although in reality he was saying in the thread that a risk.nuke lynch was fine also.
Third, talismania has not really been giving proper reads/cases (except on Zephirdd) - instead he has mostly been trying to find connections between people.
Fourth, the fact that no one has been roleblocked yet makes me think there is a framer (I just find it hard to believe that mafia would completely hold their block, even with IC being one of the roles, and then talismania has to be lying and mafia).
I am not 100% sure, but I think Sbrubbles+talismania is the mafia team.
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Alright!
I dunno if this is against the TL rules (this is only my third game here) but I don't see the point in playing this out. What you say?
You guessed it - scum resigns!
GG town.
Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/2qFy6VgjSnW
Why are we resigning at sort-of mylo?
(1) Sbrubbles is scum. He is also the framer. He is getting lynched today and I can't get him out of it. That immediately points the finger at me or prp, and there's no way I can win that debate.
(2) Sbrubbles also already resigned. You may have noticed he hasn't posted much recently. During the night, be PM'd me and apologized for his play. Apparently being scum for the first time was really stressful for him and he had a lot of anxiety because of it. He's taking a hiatus from the game to sort that out. Hope you feel better bud!
(3) My last chance is gone. I had hoped to do the following:
-Fakeclaim tracker before the innocent child came out.
-Force the real tracker to counterclaim
-Pray to god that the real tracker was kurumi, because he's the only one I had the chance of beating 1 on 1
-Get the mislynch and win the voting race the next day
However, sloosh screwed that up by coming out so quickly and putting the kibosh on the real tracker coming out. At that point it made no sense for me to come to the thread. As you can see if you read the scum qt, I toyed with many variants of this idea but could find few that would work, and none exist in this reality!
(4) I'm going to MLG this weekend >_>
____________________________
My thoughts on the mistakes in the game:
Scum missteps:
(1) The hiropro push. It just didn't feel right to me. It was too opportunistic.
(2) Sbrubbles being new. It happens, but he didn't know how to gain towncred.
(3) Real or not, the "scumslip"
Town missteps:
(1) Risk.nuke. lol.
________________
General strategy thoughts:
There's three ways to win this game as scum. With all three players alive (end of D3), with two players alive (end D4), or with one player alive (end D5). Our problem as a scumteam in general was not realizing this soon and enough and planning accordingly. While I had an inkling that this setup could not be won without bussing in some regard, I didn't fully realize the importance of that tactic until the game began to progress. By that point, we had already settled into a de facto "win with three" condition. It would be much stronger to try for a win with two and have two of the scum bus the third hard, leading the charge, and do so early (maybe D1 - certainly by D2). Town cred is everything in a setup this small, and the kind of incremental town cred I had this game could not make up for the immense town cred players like prp, hiro, and radfield achieved.
Our rolepicks were fine. Tracker and innocent child aren't particularly great for town, particulary since we defaulted into a 3 player wincon. I think vigilante + tracker would be a great combo as well for scum trying to go for a 2 player wincon. If only I had thought that through beforehand :-(
_________________
Thoughts on kills and lynches:
D1 - Navilus. This was a bad lynch for us for one reason only: he was a roleblocker voter. He would have been very useful to me if he were still in the game now, for instance, because I'm positive I can easily make myself look townier than he could. We should have lynched zephirdd, but curious circumstances intervened. Even if I were town this game I would have wanted to lynch zephirdd (though sbrubbles would have been a close second).
N1 - WBG. Killed for no other reason other than that toad thought he was the most dangerous of the framer voters. I initially wanted to kill sloosh (if only...) because I thought he was playing the strongest at the time, but backed off because of concerns that might implicate sbrubbles too much (and sbrubbles was already under some scrutiny).
D2- Toad. Radfield nailed his ass to the wall. I saw this coming a mile away and immediately began putting in as much distance as I could. Sidenote: I really don't think the timing of my vote was that bad. I would have done the same as town. I waited like five minutes for prp to actually place the hammer and he didn't.
N2 - Radfield. An obvious choice. I considered letting him live with dreams of an epic endgame in my mind but then reality slapped me in the face.
D3 - risk.nuke. Not much to say about this one haha. You all sheeped radfield hard, but not for terrible reason. If I were town this game I would not have gone along with this so willingly, as risk.nuke's behavior made no sense if he was partnered with toad.
N3 - I killed zephirdd because I knew I was going to call zephirdd out in my night post, and I was planning on the whole fake tracker thing anyway. I wanted another thing to say when the debate was going on "Why would I kill zephirdd when I was pushing him?" especially if it was me vs kurumi, of whom zephirdd had stated suspicions.
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Player comments:
Toad - I'm sorry it ended like it did for you. The hiropro thing was a mistake, and the scumslip even though you actually meant it how you explained it was just plain unfortunate. You played pretty ok I thought until Radfield did his thing.
Sbrubbles - it was your first scum game! I hope you recover from the anxiety of being suspected and all that. Feel better. It is just a game on the internet.
me - I played pretty well for a while until the walls started closing in. I'm proud of the fact that no one publicly suspected me at all until it became clear at the end. Fooling Radfield gained me a lot of breathing room, for instance. That said, most of this pride is probably misplaced in that no one here has played with me that much and knows that I'm actually good. For future refernce: when I'm scum, I appear pro-town. When I'm town, I appear REALLY pro-town. I can't remember the last time I got mislynched.
radfield - town mvp, obviously. You were all over the place and flat-out wrong on me and sbrubbles. But you got toad right, and with toad gone, the whole game was blown wide open.
sloosh - you were the townie boyscout, as I called you. I only wish I had stuck to my gut and pushed to kill you N1. Toad didn't view you as that dangerous but it was clear to me you were putting in a lot of positive effort.
hiropro - I don't know who the real tracker is but I guess it's you? You were playing hard as well, with a lot of good engagement. Well done.
prplhz - you played strangely but, in the end, effectively. Having toad push for your lynch was the best thing that happened to you.
zephirdd - you did things so blatantly scummy a scum player would never do them. I tried getting you lynched for it and it should have worked if Radfield hadn't mistakenly seen your "blueclaim". Sidenote on the blueclaim - if you read the scum QT, I caught it as well and we were all convinced you were blue too. Then radfield had to go and see it and call off the lynch :-(
kurumi - Kurumi kurumi. you (or should I write You with a capital y?) were the only one who knew me well enough to know that I could have been playing better. It took you long enough to think of it, but as soon as I saw your "ah fuck" post followed by the encrypted message, I knew I was done in for. Well done.
WBG - eh you weren't playing that hard. we should have let you live.
navilus - poor guy. I really wish we hadn't lynched you.
__________________
Finally, thanks to our wonderful hosts for the game. I loved the flavor, and the quirky debates over what majority actually was. The win condition in this game would have been funky though - for instance, if there was a mislynch today it actually wouldn't be game over. It would be 2-2 going into the next day, and if the two townies got their votes in on a mafia first, then actually town would have a chance (they'd have to do the same thing the next day) because of how the tiebreaker rules are written. Fortunately it won't come to that. I apologize if we didn't give you as interesting a game as you might have hoped!
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Endgame![[image loading]](http://0.tqn.com/d/scifi/1/0/L/k/0/-/GOT-Season2-Grand-Master-Pycelle1.jpg)
Essence of Nightshade . A single drop added to a cup of wine will calm frayed nerves, and three drops will put a person into a deep, dreamless sleep. Ten drops, will put a man into a sleep from which he will never wake.
Sbrubbles and talismania knew the end was inevitable. While the town may have discovered their identities, one thing was certain; they would not be taken alive.
Mafia concedes! Town victory!
Mafia Quicktopic
Obs Quicktopic
Role List:
Toadesstern, mafia goon
Sbrubbles, mafia framer
talismania, mafia goon
Kurumi, vanilla townie
Zephirdd, vanilla townie
HiroPro, vanilla townie
Navillus, vanilla townie
wherebugsgo, vanilla townie
Radfield, vanilla townie
risk.nuke, vanilla townie
prplhz, tracker
slOosh, innocent child
Thanks to bluelightz for his help! Thanks for playing! Post game thoughts will come when I'm not so tired.
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It's kind of interesting that we spent so much time on the poisons and blue roles and ultimately they didn't really affect the game lol (except for the mafia role voting part). That voting part was what made me look at talismania more closely.
The funny part about this game for me was I didn't really have a good reason for voting GF lol, I just picked it and I thought I'd think about it later but I never got around to it. And then I had to come up with something when everyone started questioning me. To be honest though, that's how I do most things lol.
After that, I just saw certain people who I thought were town and then I tried to focus on one mafia read at a time. After d1, I had slOosh as a strong town read and Radfield, prplhz, talismania, Kurumi as slight town reads.
I had Zephirdd as a strong mafia read (woops) and Toad, Sbrubbles (I lied about my read on him d1 because I didn't have enough evidence to support my case) as slight mafia reads. Radfield's case on Toad was really ridiculously good and after that I think mafia just lost too much influence.
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My thoutghts on each and every one of you soon, question: am I sane?
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Oh well wtf.
Also, if any mafia wants to rage at me its because i rngd lol >.<
Anyway this is my analysis after reading filters (yay thats right free tips!)
note that I will point shit out depending on my instincts.
1.Sbrubbles
+ Show Spoiler +First of all, like I said in my PM, read my first scum game XD. You performed well as scum for the first time good job! But you made some mistakes. First, DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. Use a simple reason (or kinda very weak reason) to vote, it makes you look suspicious, or when he gets mislynched you get the blame because you just simply *secured* the lynch, you didn't have a proper reason or base in which you vote so you get the blame for. (note: about your navillus vote this is) It is also suspicious because you, never mentioned Nav AT ALL before you voted, any guy would think that "Woah, why did he vote him?", take this also as a tip to your town play, if you have suspicions at someone, stay there and convince others of the suspicion of the guy you are suspicious of, as an example take my pressure and attempt to lynch Ace in Wheel Of Fortune, I stood by my scum reads. Also, looking at your filter, NEED MOAR ACTIVITY BRO! unless you have a valid reason such as in WoF, just take the time and be more active, buys you more town cre d of participating in the discussion After that, most of your page 2 post's are one liner's and some pictures, stop it (unless it is warranted though ^^), your just spamming useless post's that don't help town discussion, this is scummy, Also because you questioned my sanityOverall, you played well for your first time and I hope by incorporating the tips I suggested you may become more bwas
2. Kurumi
+ Show Spoiler +
Wanna fuck me?
Anyways, first, KEEL TROLLING and one liners (unless warranted :D), your just spamming useless shit into the thread.
Try and be more constructive, try and be more helpful to the discussion, not being super hostile and not helping,for example your play during the selection phase, melikes that.
Also, as a suggestion, you might want to look other people's filter's with more depth, in hindsight I don't think you didn't even try to convince yourself that X is town, you just stuck with that X is scum, while it is good, when sometimes its blatantly obvious that he is town (like Radfield) just rethink him again.
3. Zephirdd
+ Show Spoiler +
Good play zeph, good play.
Nice constructive shit, you defended accusations well, you were probably a bluesnipe (that failed), all I can say is keep it up, and if you play as scum like this, uhh......
4.HiroPro
+ Show Spoiler +
First, are you hiro protagonist o.o? Very good post's, you defended well, you shoule keep it up!~
Second, when you hopped on the risk.nuke wagon, I'd say he was town (well I know he was town at the time but if you've ever played with him you'd think again), he is playing to his *town* meta, when there is everyone except the lynchee voting the same person you probablt should rethink the lynchee, is he defending? risk.nuke tried to defend but you all drowned him in "lol your so scum", just improve this part: READ SOMEONES META AKFJSGHASGJTH, meta is sometimes a good way to see if he's town or maybe scum, like I used this to correctly identify MrZentor as town in Wheel Of Fortune Mafia
5.Navilllus
+ Show Spoiler +
Honestly, not much to comment except to defend yourself more,.share your thoughts on mostly everyone before you die, and respond directly into the accusations, show you care, show you want to win, show your effort.
6.prplhz
+ Show Spoiler +Hi, what happened to sinani stealing your something or w/e xD. As a blue, your track choices were for the good of town, but next time if you have suspicions on someone (like how you tracked kurumi I think) just go for it . Your play, good. Your votes, good imo, your Nav vote when you switched, good thing on pointing why he's scummy to you :D, Just continue playing liek this, your good!
7.talismania
+ Show Spoiler +I guess I can say that you played well, you were the last alive if you didn't concede >.> Your post's were fairly good, except for stuff like this, this is what I push Mattchew for, baseless shit slinged into the thread. Your other post's we're good, just keep on playing like this and incorporate the suggestions I mentioned, also try and defend your scumbuddy if you think he was town, this may get some town cred depending on how you do it but he flips scumy anyway >.<
8.Toadesttern
+ Show Spoiler +Good activity, just didn't defend yourself hard enough, at that time, I think to defend, you shouldve pointed suspicion on one of your mafia buddies, buys them more town cred. Just, don't get caught by Radfield again
9.wherebugsgo
+ Show Spoiler +
wtf with your play o_o, not expected by meh :/, though I guess your play had merrits as you made scum feel dangerous bout' you and bough Radfield more time (which ultimately helped lynch Toad).
Just, don't spam too much, and continue playing like this.
10.Radfield
+ Show Spoiler +
Hi God of Town!
Good job with EVERYTHING! AUIGVASDHGSFGS.
Not much to say then just keep it up.
11.risk.nuke
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I could say that your better then yourself in Purgatory?
First, More activity, lurking probably played a major part in making people suspicios on you.
Next, defend yourself more harder and faster, I think your defense post's we're nice, just more, and faster, at that time it was too late.
Lastly, if you we're shot down by others saying that "lol your so scum i won't even bother thinking your town", point that out as scummy, why is this scummy? They never. ever. EVER. try to convince themselves to read or explore how you could be town, they didn't make effort, basically just didn't care about if you we're lynched or not.
12.slOosh
+ Show Spoiler +
Good job not getting hit by mafia, you used your power at the right time and convinced everyone that you were town, also bringin down the law on Brubbles!
Keep on playing like this.
Thanks for playing people, sorry if your comments are too short or something.
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+ Show Spoiler +Zephirdd is vigilante. Sloosh is tracker. Prplhz played quite good town game. Hiro too. Sbrubbles and talismania are scum. Talismania is much more likely to hold the role though. Yeah I know I basically stopped playing after N1... Sorry about this guys. I've read the thread but couldn't get any thoughts grouped together. Talismania is a really good player, in Space Station I got him as Town really fast D1, I was so sure in my read (which was correct, obviously) I gave him my vet power. This game... He never pushes a lynch himself. He is in the backstage of this game. If you are still thinking this balance vet thing, there you go. Talismania+Toad = 2 good players for scum and Sbrubbles as an add. Rad and WBG for Town. I am not good, just lucky sometimes and I have plenty of pebbles to throw around. Scum were setting up my lynch from the very beginning and wbg was only helping them for some reason. Probably bored too. Sloosh talks a little too much about Tracker and he slips about his existence in his last post. Tomorrow it's 3v2, your last chance. Win Town.
that was the post.
Why I thought Zephirdd is Vigilante? His post had KURUMI in it so it was like an obvious vig breadcrumb. Sloosh was talking a lot too much about tracker, that's why I thought he was Tracker, lol. Still, HiroPro and Prplhz were town in my eyes, Zephirdd and Sloosh too. That left talismania who did not play a town game and sbrubbles who was playing like risk.nuke.
Thanks for hosting Kita and Bluelightz! Interesting setup.
@talismania
That "ah fuck" was me noticing Zephirdd's breadcrumb. But that made me think over things and the conclusion is the encrypted post I wanted to decrypt close to deadline but.. I was sleepy so I gave the password earlier.
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F5 and win lol. Postgame!
@Sbrubbles Yea hope you get over your anxiety, sorry for yelling at you day1 and hope to play with you again I don't think you played bad at all and you were absolutely defensible, this was just an uphill struggle for scum.
@Kurumi I never understand what you're saying but then you nailed two scum in the end so you obviously played really well (except the whole going hard for Radfield and me but as long as it ended up in you wanting to lynch scum!). I thought you were scummy for some meta reasons at some point but I didn't want to push you 'cause other than that there wasn't much to go for. I think I once saw you write "I can't be meta'd" and I guess you're right I don't think that claiming vigilante and threatening someone is going to work though, if scum had a roleblocker they would have roleblocked you that night and you'd have thought I was scum or something like that. If anything it showed that you weren't blue 'cause you weren't afraid of getting roleblocked.
@Zephirdd You played well and managed to establish yourself as townie to everybody and even attracted a night hit and that's really good!
@HiroPro You also played well even though I still don't understand how you could think that there was a chance of godfather being picked for scum
@Navillus Yea it's not all that great to be lynched day1. A little more effort was all it required, 2 measly posts on day1 isn't a lot.
@talismania "When I'm scum I appear town and when I'm town I appear very town" is so accurate! I actually had you down as scummy from your very first line in your very first post ("I had these thoughts pregame" seemed like you were distancing yourself from your own ideas!) but then you seemed townie but then I thought to myself "In Space Station you knew he was town 12 hours into the game, why do you have these nagging suspicions?" Really well played by you.
@Toadesstern You played well until Radfield "nailed your ass to the wall" but that could happen to anybody. Which is why you always shoot Radfield night1 as scum. I thought it was so weird that you didn't pick medic and then you didn't shoot Radfield 'cause he would be the very obvious medic target.
@wherebugsgo l0l you don't need any sort of feedback from me
@Radfield Same But nice analysis on Toadesstern, I know I'll be coming back and reading that again.
@risk.nuke Sorry for being on your back about your day2 performance but I know you could have done a lot better.
@slOosh Played well, I didn't expect you to be innocent child at all because you weren't all too vocal but you managed to establish yourself as town and no one ever pointed a finger at you while you figured out the scum team. Well done.
I think scum's biggest mistake was not to kill Radfield on night1. The only reason you didn't pick medic was so you could shoot Radfield. wherebugsgo wasn't putting a lot of effort into this game and whatever he said could have been manipulated by you. Zephirdd on night3 was alright.
I also disagree that the risk.nuke lynch was all bad, it was bad in the sense that he was townie but it was good in the sense that he looked scummy. There's a reason you get all votes in the game except your own. The rest of the lynches were okay too, Navilus obviously being the worst.
@Bluelightz I don't understand how I played strange in your eyes, but Kurumi didn't
By the way, I tracked Sbrubbles, risk.nuke, Kurumi and I didn't get anything on anyone.
Thanks to kitaman27 and Bluelightz for hosting Great fun was had!
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On June 09 2012 16:48 Bluelightz wrote:Oh well wtf. Also, if any mafia wants to rage at me its because i rngd lol >.< Anyway this is my analysis after reading filters (yay thats right free tips!) note that I will point shit out depending on my instincts. 1.Sbrubbles + Show Spoiler +First of all, like I said in my PM, read my first scum game XD. You performed well as scum for the first time good job! But you made some mistakes. First, DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. Use a simple reason (or kinda very weak reason) to vote, it makes you look suspicious, or when he gets mislynched you get the blame because you just simply *secured* the lynch, you didn't have a proper reason or base in which you vote so you get the blame for. (note: about your navillus vote this is) It is also suspicious because you, never mentioned Nav AT ALL before you voted, any guy would think that "Woah, why did he vote him?", take this also as a tip to your town play, if you have suspicions at someone, stay there and convince others of the suspicion of the guy you are suspicious of, as an example take my pressure and attempt to lynch Ace in Wheel Of Fortune, I stood by my scum reads. Also, looking at your filter, NEED MOAR ACTIVITY BRO! unless you have a valid reason such as in WoF, just take the time and be more active, buys you more town cre d of participating in the discussion After that, most of your page 2 post's are one liner's and some pictures, stop it (unless it is warranted though ^^), your just spamming useless post's that don't help town discussion, this is scummy, Also because you questioned my sanityOverall, you played well for your first time and I hope by incorporating the tips I suggested you may become more bwas 2. Kurumi + Show Spoiler +
Wanna fuck me?
Anyways, first, KEEL TROLLING and one liners (unless warranted :D), your just spamming useless shit into the thread.
Try and be more constructive, try and be more helpful to the discussion, not being super hostile and not helping,for example your play during the selection phase, melikes that.
Also, as a suggestion, you might want to look other people's filter's with more depth, in hindsight I don't think you didn't even try to convince yourself that X is town, you just stuck with that X is scum, while it is good, when sometimes its blatantly obvious that he is town (like Radfield) just rethink him again.
3. Zephirdd + Show Spoiler +
Good play zeph, good play.
Nice constructive shit, you defended accusations well, you were probably a bluesnipe (that failed), all I can say is keep it up, and if you play as scum like this, uhh......
4.HiroPro + Show Spoiler +
First, are you hiro protagonist o.o? Very good post's, you defended well, you shoule keep it up!~
Second, when you hopped on the risk.nuke wagon, I'd say he was town (well I know he was town at the time but if you've ever played with him you'd think again), he is playing to his *town* meta, when there is everyone except the lynchee voting the same person you probablt should rethink the lynchee, is he defending? risk.nuke tried to defend but you all drowned him in "lol your so scum", just improve this part: READ SOMEONES META AKFJSGHASGJTH, meta is sometimes a good way to see if he's town or maybe scum, like I used this to correctly identify MrZentor as town in Wheel Of Fortune Mafia
5.Navilllus + Show Spoiler +
Honestly, not much to comment except to defend yourself more,.share your thoughts on mostly everyone before you die, and respond directly into the accusations, show you care, show you want to win, show your effort.
6.prplhz + Show Spoiler +Hi, what happened to sinani stealing your something or w/e xD. As a blue, your track choices were for the good of town, but next time if you have suspicions on someone (like how you tracked kurumi I think) just go for it . Your play, good. Your votes, good imo, your Nav vote when you switched, good thing on pointing why he's scummy to you :D, Just continue playing liek this, your good! 7.talismania + Show Spoiler +I guess I can say that you played well, you were the last alive if you didn't concede >.> Your post's were fairly good, except for stuff like this, this is what I push Mattchew for, baseless shit slinged into the thread. Your other post's we're good, just keep on playing like this and incorporate the suggestions I mentioned, also try and defend your scumbuddy if you think he was town, this may get some town cred depending on how you do it but he flips scumy anyway >.< 8.Toadesttern + Show Spoiler +Good activity, just didn't defend yourself hard enough, at that time, I think to defend, you shouldve pointed suspicion on one of your mafia buddies, buys them more town cred. Just, don't get caught by Radfield again 9.wherebugsgo + Show Spoiler +
wtf with your play o_o, not expected by meh :/, though I guess your play had merrits as you made scum feel dangerous bout' you and bough Radfield more time (which ultimately helped lynch Toad).
Just, don't spam too much, and continue playing like this.
10.Radfield + Show Spoiler +
Hi God of Town!
Good job with EVERYTHING! AUIGVASDHGSFGS.
Not much to say then just keep it up.
11.risk.nuke + Show Spoiler +
I guess I could say that your better then yourself in Purgatory?
First, More activity, lurking probably played a major part in making people suspicios on you.
Next, defend yourself more harder and faster, I think your defense post's we're nice, just more, and faster, at that time it was too late.
Lastly, if you we're shot down by others saying that "lol your so scum i won't even bother thinking your town", point that out as scummy, why is this scummy? They never. ever. EVER. try to convince themselves to read or explore how you could be town, they didn't make effort, basically just didn't care about if you we're lynched or not.
12.slOosh + Show Spoiler +
Good job not getting hit by mafia, you used your power at the right time and convinced everyone that you were town, also bringin down the law on Brubbles!
Keep on playing like this.
Thanks for playing people, sorry if your comments are too short or something.
I did that man. Just look at how risk got lynched. That was on purpose :3
About our game: I think we all did somewhat good but we really lacked teamplay. Everyone did what he thought was best without asking the rest first and we really needed irc
When Rad did his case talis bussed me instantly saying the game is over althouth I had 3 townies saying they're not willing to vote me (when majority is 5 having 3 townies + 3 mafias on your side is quite a thing). With Talis help I could have survived easily imo. OR we should have bussed me all together making both talis and sbrubbles look good but that way with everyone doing something different we just ended up in a horrible position.
Sad thing sbrubbles apparently had some problems of his own and had to quit which left talis alone vs the rest
With proper teamplay this game could have gone either way but I was to lazy to set up an irc channel :p
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btw the reasoning on shooting WBG was quite simple and I still think we needed to either shoot WBG or Rad. Shooting Rad was just really hard to do given the set-up and how we were forced to do the encrypted votes. Without the encrypted votes we could have shot rad but like that we had to shoot WBG:
WBG:
Okay the wbg thing was pretty straight forward. We had both you and WBG being town and we thought we couldn't let both of you survive n1 and had to shoot either you or WBG. That was the basic thought.
Both you and WBG were pretty clueless d1 and both of you actually ended up defending at least 1 mafia each saying you have a townread on him while pushing town. So from the looks of it you were both equally off the track.
The 2 things that decided the shot on WBG for me were those two:
In LI he ended up having NO clue at all d1 and after VE and I bussed each other hardcore making WBG say "if that's a bus it's the best bus I've ever seen on TL" he still ended up with a list of 6 people at the deadline that was 5/6 dead on right, only being wrong on me because of that bus. That was really impressive and I was really scared about something like that because he tends to not have a clue at all and out of nowhere he figured out everyone while you tend to figure out mafia one at a time from those games I saw you play. But that was just a sidenote, the really important thing was actually already mentioned by you:
We picked 2-1 in votes. 2 RB and 1 framer. Nav voted RB and your analysis based on votes was really good and we thought something like that might happen so the thing that made us shoot WBG instead of you was the fact that he voted framer and not RB. If we had shot you instead we pictured it would be equally dangerous while having 2 people killed out of the "voted RB" group while having 2 players of our own in there and WBG still alive. We really didn't want to see that happening.
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Both prplhz and sloosh played their blues very well. Cookie for them!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Excellent showing by town!! Possibly the best town game I've seen in a long time.
risk.nuke, I feel like I kind of failed you. I never ended up looking closely again at your posts, because I thought you were scum, and I honestly did not think I would die N2. I'm not sure if I would have changed my mind or not, but there it is.
prplhz, that's why we lynch Toad first! If Player A has a lot of content and looks scummy, and Player B has a small amount of content and looks scummy, lynch Player A first!
I thought Talismania was town based mainly on the fact that the encryption idea was his. However I had a note down that while he came up with the idea, he did not appear to fully realize it's potency in that mafia could get caught lying and give us a list-check(which we ended up getting). I should have made a bigger deal out of that, as that is a very scum thing to do; pushing a plan, but not for the right reasons. It's similar to Toad pushing prplhz for the wrong reasons, and is a common mafia trait(because it's hard to see things from a mafia point of view).
I agree 100% with Sbrubbles. Playing as mafia is extremely hard and stressful. In fact, the reason I don't play PM games is because I can't deal with it if I roll mafia, the stress is just too much. After 6 times as scum, I'm slowly getting able to handle being mafia. Not before I took about an 8 month break from playing though, solely because I wasn't having fun if I rolled mafia.
Really solid play all around from town. Great play from mafia as well, and I think they picked the proper roles for town. If I was mafia I might have picked a Vigilante for town though. With 2 shots, it's very likely they are shooting on Night 1, and mafia can almost always stay hidden on night 1. It turns the game into a bit more of a coin toss, but can bring about an endgame extremely fast.
Talismania, while I was wrong on you, I was actually right about sbrubbles. Early on I thought he was town, but by the time I had died I was pretty sure he was scum. You can see it from my "Toad, risk.nuke, Sbrubbles, GG NO RE!?" post. However, the reason I thought he was scum had more to do with seeing Kurumi, Zeph and Sloosh as town, then as anything particularly scummy Sbrubbles had done.
Mafia got really hurt from the encrypting of votes and the subsequent Framer pick. List checks are outrageously powerful, and were in this game as well, despite us not knowing for sure what the exact picks were. Mafia were also hurt by the fact the HiroPro was playing very pro-town, which basically assured a 2-1 pick by mafia.
Great setup by the way, and really good hosting. I would play this type of setup again for sure. Thanks Kita and bluelightz!
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This was a great town game?? Ugh why is it I never end up following the legit town games first C9++, now this.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
only 36 pages...
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The town atmosphere in this game was really good, a lot of analysis and few one liners, no one had pissing contests or anything. I think that short games won by mafia is because people were lazy, short games won by town is because of awesome town atmosphere.
Look at how little "idiot" "retard" "stupid" "moron" "dumb" there was in this game:
"idiot" was said 9 times, all referring to I'm A Cop You Idiot.
Toadesstern was the only player who was ever called retarded, and that was by himself!
Zephirdd called himself stupid, I called myself stupid, and Sbrubbles called innocent child a stupidly good role.
No "moron".
When it comes to "dumb" then I'm the biggest sinner, but never directly against another player, only in hypothetical situations ("I think it would be dumb to shoot me!")
About Toadesstern/risk.nuke, of course Toadesstern was the best lynch but I didn't realize it. I thought he was kind of townie looking and he explained himself well but I eventually got around (I would have hammered Toadesstern but I wanted to see if someone else would hammer him after I said I would).
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On June 09 2012 21:50 Radfield wrote:
[...]
I thought Talismania was town based mainly on the fact that the encryption idea was his. However I had a note down that while he came up with the idea, he did not appear to fully realize it's potency in that mafia could get caught lying and give us a list-check(which we ended up getting). I should have made a bigger deal out of that, as that is a very scum thing to do; pushing a plan, but not for the right reasons. It's similar to Toad pushing prplhz for the wrong reasons, and is a common mafia trait(because it's hard to see things from a mafia point of view).
[...]
Actually, I thought it was pretty obvious that was the reason for doing it. I left it unsaid but I probably would have made the exact same post as town. I wanted to clarify later, but then sbrubbles did it and I figured there was no point after that.
The real reason you should have thought I was scum is that there's an even more potent usage for encryption that I didn't reveal :-)
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On June 09 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 16:48 Bluelightz wrote:Oh well wtf. Also, if any mafia wants to rage at me its because i rngd lol >.< Anyway this is my analysis after reading filters (yay thats right free tips!) note that I will point shit out depending on my instincts. 1.Sbrubbles + Show Spoiler +First of all, like I said in my PM, read my first scum game XD. You performed well as scum for the first time good job! But you made some mistakes. First, DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. Use a simple reason (or kinda very weak reason) to vote, it makes you look suspicious, or when he gets mislynched you get the blame because you just simply *secured* the lynch, you didn't have a proper reason or base in which you vote so you get the blame for. (note: about your navillus vote this is) It is also suspicious because you, never mentioned Nav AT ALL before you voted, any guy would think that "Woah, why did he vote him?", take this also as a tip to your town play, if you have suspicions at someone, stay there and convince others of the suspicion of the guy you are suspicious of, as an example take my pressure and attempt to lynch Ace in Wheel Of Fortune, I stood by my scum reads. Also, looking at your filter, NEED MOAR ACTIVITY BRO! unless you have a valid reason such as in WoF, just take the time and be more active, buys you more town cre d of participating in the discussion After that, most of your page 2 post's are one liner's and some pictures, stop it (unless it is warranted though ^^), your just spamming useless post's that don't help town discussion, this is scummy, Also because you questioned my sanityOverall, you played well for your first time and I hope by incorporating the tips I suggested you may become more bwas 2. Kurumi + Show Spoiler +
Wanna fuck me?
Anyways, first, KEEL TROLLING and one liners (unless warranted :D), your just spamming useless shit into the thread.
Try and be more constructive, try and be more helpful to the discussion, not being super hostile and not helping,for example your play during the selection phase, melikes that.
Also, as a suggestion, you might want to look other people's filter's with more depth, in hindsight I don't think you didn't even try to convince yourself that X is town, you just stuck with that X is scum, while it is good, when sometimes its blatantly obvious that he is town (like Radfield) just rethink him again.
3. Zephirdd + Show Spoiler +
Good play zeph, good play.
Nice constructive shit, you defended accusations well, you were probably a bluesnipe (that failed), all I can say is keep it up, and if you play as scum like this, uhh......
4.HiroPro + Show Spoiler +
First, are you hiro protagonist o.o? Very good post's, you defended well, you shoule keep it up!~
Second, when you hopped on the risk.nuke wagon, I'd say he was town (well I know he was town at the time but if you've ever played with him you'd think again), he is playing to his *town* meta, when there is everyone except the lynchee voting the same person you probablt should rethink the lynchee, is he defending? risk.nuke tried to defend but you all drowned him in "lol your so scum", just improve this part: READ SOMEONES META AKFJSGHASGJTH, meta is sometimes a good way to see if he's town or maybe scum, like I used this to correctly identify MrZentor as town in Wheel Of Fortune Mafia
5.Navilllus + Show Spoiler +
Honestly, not much to comment except to defend yourself more,.share your thoughts on mostly everyone before you die, and respond directly into the accusations, show you care, show you want to win, show your effort.
6.prplhz + Show Spoiler +Hi, what happened to sinani stealing your something or w/e xD. As a blue, your track choices were for the good of town, but next time if you have suspicions on someone (like how you tracked kurumi I think) just go for it . Your play, good. Your votes, good imo, your Nav vote when you switched, good thing on pointing why he's scummy to you :D, Just continue playing liek this, your good! 7.talismania + Show Spoiler +I guess I can say that you played well, you were the last alive if you didn't concede >.> Your post's were fairly good, except for stuff like this, this is what I push Mattchew for, baseless shit slinged into the thread. Your other post's we're good, just keep on playing like this and incorporate the suggestions I mentioned, also try and defend your scumbuddy if you think he was town, this may get some town cred depending on how you do it but he flips scumy anyway >.< 8.Toadesttern + Show Spoiler +Good activity, just didn't defend yourself hard enough, at that time, I think to defend, you shouldve pointed suspicion on one of your mafia buddies, buys them more town cred. Just, don't get caught by Radfield again 9.wherebugsgo + Show Spoiler +
wtf with your play o_o, not expected by meh :/, though I guess your play had merrits as you made scum feel dangerous bout' you and bough Radfield more time (which ultimately helped lynch Toad).
Just, don't spam too much, and continue playing like this.
10.Radfield + Show Spoiler +
Hi God of Town!
Good job with EVERYTHING! AUIGVASDHGSFGS.
Not much to say then just keep it up.
11.risk.nuke + Show Spoiler +
I guess I could say that your better then yourself in Purgatory?
First, More activity, lurking probably played a major part in making people suspicios on you.
Next, defend yourself more harder and faster, I think your defense post's we're nice, just more, and faster, at that time it was too late.
Lastly, if you we're shot down by others saying that "lol your so scum i won't even bother thinking your town", point that out as scummy, why is this scummy? They never. ever. EVER. try to convince themselves to read or explore how you could be town, they didn't make effort, basically just didn't care about if you we're lynched or not.
12.slOosh + Show Spoiler +
Good job not getting hit by mafia, you used your power at the right time and convinced everyone that you were town, also bringin down the law on Brubbles!
Keep on playing like this.
Thanks for playing people, sorry if your comments are too short or something. I did that man. Just look at how risk got lynched. That was on purpose :3 About our game: I think we all did somewhat good but we really lacked teamplay. Everyone did what he thought was best without asking the rest first and we really needed irc When Rad did his case talis bussed me instantly saying the game is over althouth I had 3 townies saying they're not willing to vote me (when majority is 5 having 3 townies + 3 mafias on your side is quite a thing). With Talis help I could have survived easily imo. OR we should have bussed me all together making both talis and sbrubbles look good but that way with everyone doing something different we just ended up in a horrible position. Sad thing sbrubbles apparently had some problems of his own and had to quit which left talis alone vs the rest With proper teamplay this game could have gone either way but I was to lazy to set up an irc channel :p
The problem toad is that if I didn't bus you, what would have happened D3? We would have all been at mylo, sure, but who do we get mislynched? Prp? Zephirdd? It would have been an uphill struggle. Then again it might have been a better chance that what ended up happening.
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Hurray!
Innocent Child was a very interesting role to play. Knowing that at any time I could pop my power and be modconfirmed town was great, but I didn't want to be "ah he is so towny we have to shoot him". In the end though I just forgot about my role because it's the best way to not get bluesniped and brought it up only when it mattered. I knew the hidden IC was scary for scum on the last night and wanted to not get shot since it's very scary for them to face an unlynchable townie (what it Kurumi or Zephirdd was IC last day? Would be scary stuff). In the end the high priority targets of WBG and Radfield took the bullets. It feels great not getting shot D1
I didn't even realize the power of the list checks myself until I read the ScumQT and postgame thoughts. Well now I know how good it is, and realized it was thanks to Kurumi's D0 framer pushing that we were able to have nicely divided groups. In hindsight a confirmed roleblocker might not have been as good as having the list checks. Interesting.
As for me coming out so fast last day, I actually just listened to prplhz's comment to claim immediately because he was trustable town, probable tracker in my reads, so all credit to him for shutting down any last scum gambits!
All in all a nice clean game, minimal in spam but definitely not lacking in content either. Thanks everyone who helped make it happen! (and Sbrubbles I hope you feel better soon. I know I didn't enjoy my first scum game with all the manipulation and the inherent guilt; hopefully the stress will pass quickly!)
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Yeah few in town seemed to be explicitly saying how much the list checks were worth.
My reasoning for going ahead and pushing the encryption was that I assumed it would gain me town cred but also not hurt us. If the vote was split, we'd have to split our votes anyway (encryption or not) and I figured that town would settle on one dominant role, which would make the votes meaningless. So kurumi's push of framer really hurt. I thought that radfield's roleblocker push should have won out, and in hindsight I wish I had acted along toad's lines and really pushed for roleblocker. It is weaker than framer IMO.
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On June 10 2012 00:32 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 20:35 Toadesstern wrote:On June 09 2012 16:48 Bluelightz wrote:Oh well wtf. Also, if any mafia wants to rage at me its because i rngd lol >.< Anyway this is my analysis after reading filters (yay thats right free tips!) note that I will point shit out depending on my instincts. 1.Sbrubbles + Show Spoiler +First of all, like I said in my PM, read my first scum game XD. You performed well as scum for the first time good job! But you made some mistakes. First, DO NOT. ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. Use a simple reason (or kinda very weak reason) to vote, it makes you look suspicious, or when he gets mislynched you get the blame because you just simply *secured* the lynch, you didn't have a proper reason or base in which you vote so you get the blame for. (note: about your navillus vote this is) It is also suspicious because you, never mentioned Nav AT ALL before you voted, any guy would think that "Woah, why did he vote him?", take this also as a tip to your town play, if you have suspicions at someone, stay there and convince others of the suspicion of the guy you are suspicious of, as an example take my pressure and attempt to lynch Ace in Wheel Of Fortune, I stood by my scum reads. Also, looking at your filter, NEED MOAR ACTIVITY BRO! unless you have a valid reason such as in WoF, just take the time and be more active, buys you more town cre d of participating in the discussion After that, most of your page 2 post's are one liner's and some pictures, stop it (unless it is warranted though ^^), your just spamming useless post's that don't help town discussion, this is scummy, Also because you questioned my sanityOverall, you played well for your first time and I hope by incorporating the tips I suggested you may become more bwas 2. Kurumi + Show Spoiler +
Wanna fuck me?
Anyways, first, KEEL TROLLING and one liners (unless warranted :D), your just spamming useless shit into the thread.
Try and be more constructive, try and be more helpful to the discussion, not being super hostile and not helping,for example your play during the selection phase, melikes that.
Also, as a suggestion, you might want to look other people's filter's with more depth, in hindsight I don't think you didn't even try to convince yourself that X is town, you just stuck with that X is scum, while it is good, when sometimes its blatantly obvious that he is town (like Radfield) just rethink him again.
3. Zephirdd + Show Spoiler +
Good play zeph, good play.
Nice constructive shit, you defended accusations well, you were probably a bluesnipe (that failed), all I can say is keep it up, and if you play as scum like this, uhh......
4.HiroPro + Show Spoiler +
First, are you hiro protagonist o.o? Very good post's, you defended well, you shoule keep it up!~
Second, when you hopped on the risk.nuke wagon, I'd say he was town (well I know he was town at the time but if you've ever played with him you'd think again), he is playing to his *town* meta, when there is everyone except the lynchee voting the same person you probablt should rethink the lynchee, is he defending? risk.nuke tried to defend but you all drowned him in "lol your so scum", just improve this part: READ SOMEONES META AKFJSGHASGJTH, meta is sometimes a good way to see if he's town or maybe scum, like I used this to correctly identify MrZentor as town in Wheel Of Fortune Mafia
5.Navilllus + Show Spoiler +
Honestly, not much to comment except to defend yourself more,.share your thoughts on mostly everyone before you die, and respond directly into the accusations, show you care, show you want to win, show your effort.
6.prplhz + Show Spoiler +Hi, what happened to sinani stealing your something or w/e xD. As a blue, your track choices were for the good of town, but next time if you have suspicions on someone (like how you tracked kurumi I think) just go for it . Your play, good. Your votes, good imo, your Nav vote when you switched, good thing on pointing why he's scummy to you :D, Just continue playing liek this, your good! 7.talismania + Show Spoiler +I guess I can say that you played well, you were the last alive if you didn't concede >.> Your post's were fairly good, except for stuff like this, this is what I push Mattchew for, baseless shit slinged into the thread. Your other post's we're good, just keep on playing like this and incorporate the suggestions I mentioned, also try and defend your scumbuddy if you think he was town, this may get some town cred depending on how you do it but he flips scumy anyway >.< 8.Toadesttern + Show Spoiler +Good activity, just didn't defend yourself hard enough, at that time, I think to defend, you shouldve pointed suspicion on one of your mafia buddies, buys them more town cred. Just, don't get caught by Radfield again 9.wherebugsgo + Show Spoiler +
wtf with your play o_o, not expected by meh :/, though I guess your play had merrits as you made scum feel dangerous bout' you and bough Radfield more time (which ultimately helped lynch Toad).
Just, don't spam too much, and continue playing like this.
10.Radfield + Show Spoiler +
Hi God of Town!
Good job with EVERYTHING! AUIGVASDHGSFGS.
Not much to say then just keep it up.
11.risk.nuke + Show Spoiler +
I guess I could say that your better then yourself in Purgatory?
First, More activity, lurking probably played a major part in making people suspicios on you.
Next, defend yourself more harder and faster, I think your defense post's we're nice, just more, and faster, at that time it was too late.
Lastly, if you we're shot down by others saying that "lol your so scum i won't even bother thinking your town", point that out as scummy, why is this scummy? They never. ever. EVER. try to convince themselves to read or explore how you could be town, they didn't make effort, basically just didn't care about if you we're lynched or not.
12.slOosh + Show Spoiler +
Good job not getting hit by mafia, you used your power at the right time and convinced everyone that you were town, also bringin down the law on Brubbles!
Keep on playing like this.
Thanks for playing people, sorry if your comments are too short or something. I did that man. Just look at how risk got lynched. That was on purpose :3 About our game: I think we all did somewhat good but we really lacked teamplay. Everyone did what he thought was best without asking the rest first and we really needed irc When Rad did his case talis bussed me instantly saying the game is over althouth I had 3 townies saying they're not willing to vote me (when majority is 5 having 3 townies + 3 mafias on your side is quite a thing). With Talis help I could have survived easily imo. OR we should have bussed me all together making both talis and sbrubbles look good but that way with everyone doing something different we just ended up in a horrible position. Sad thing sbrubbles apparently had some problems of his own and had to quit which left talis alone vs the rest With proper teamplay this game could have gone either way but I was to lazy to set up an irc channel :p The problem toad is that if I didn't bus you, what would have happened D3? We would have all been at mylo, sure, but who do we get mislynched? Prp? Zephirdd? It would have been an uphill struggle. Then again it might have been a better chance that what ended up happening.
If I had survived that day we basicly would have won the game. It was 3 or 4 townies dead 3 mafias alive and 3 lylos in a row for town
A perfect situation to bus me d3 and maybe even one of you bus the other d4 to secure the win d5.
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Holy penis I did nothing. Sorry about that guys.
Basically what happened was that d0 and d1 I had a couple of dentist appointments (and I was also in other games) I ended up having dental surgery and I forgot to vote in my novocaine coma-like state. The surgery was done last minute following my routine appointment. Only time free within this month I guess, lol. (before I fly back to Cal I suppose)
Anyway as people have mentioned usually on d1 I'm just trying to get a foothold. My d1 is almost always terrible because I tend to pressure people for the wrong reasons. I'm glad it all worked out though, particularly that I took a bullet. VT like me taking a bullet is far more useful than someone like Radfield or a power role taking a bullet.
I think mafia honestly should have evaluated carefully what roles they picked. I would've chosen medic and probably tracker. This reduces the possibilities for confirming players. With innocent child you know someone will confirm themselves. With cop you have the potential for 2 confirmations. Vigi is just a bit too risky.
The reason I would've picked medic is because it's an often misplayed role. You can leave alive stronger townies sometimes and create situations in which town doubt themselves despite excellent play on their part. WoF mafia with the Ace+Forumite+VE scumteam proved that IMO. The worst thing for a scumteam is a confirmed townie. Trackers can't confirm anyone, and only skilled medics can confirm. Inno child is free, cop is practically 2 free, and vigi is big swing.
Pick your poison indeed :p great hosting, thanks for the very nice setup.
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GG guys ... it feels weird now that it's over, but by D3 I was freaking out (not in a good way ). I really can't explain what happened. Still, it didn't matter too much because I already had messed up by then.
Playing town means you have to use practically all your energy to point your finger at people you think are scum. You've got to defend yourself at times, but even if you can't do it, at least you can hope whoever is accusing you looks scummy because of it. Playing scum feels like you always have to have a plan and an answer, and frankly I usually had neither.
Here are some thoughts, though:
I totally agree on the Toad scumslip. Bonus points because it pointed at me indirectly .
Why did town not consider a NL considering it's mylo? I know there was a really good target (me), but still.
I really think talis' encryption thing for the votes helped town out a lot, even if not everyone did it. I would have been happier if everyone went with Radfield on that one (when he said we should just claim afterwards because it wouldn't really matter).
We, as scum, could have planned out better on how to deceive town as to what role we really had. I had some ideas but in the end I chickened out (check the scum qt for that).
Rad's case on Toad was suberb in my opinion (even without the scumslip thing). I think it deserves special recognition.
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I'm just mad at my reads. Every single one of them were wrong. I thought talis was town, Sbrubbles was town, sloosh and Kurumi were scum, and risk was the scummiest guy ever. Oh and at a point I thought Toad was actually town LOL.
From now on, let there be the Zephirdd Rule. Whenever Zephirdd has a read that is not based on other opinions, reverse it. You will get the right alignment. Maybe that will work? I'll use it.
See you guys on Bastard II
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
In regards to the setup, I'm glad the role selection wasn't a clear cut decision. I do tend to agree that the roleblocker would have been the best selection to give the scum team, as it ensures the validity of any cop or tracker checks. As for the town roles, I think the tracker, medic, and innocent child were the weakest of the roles to choose from. I would be hesitant to select a cop or vig, as they are similar to the innocent child confirmation mechanic, with an additional upside of a check or multiple shots. However, the one benefit for selecting these roles is that they may be counter-claimed, unlike the innocent child. If the game was slightly larger, I'd like to play around with a setup that contained a pool of roles and worked similar to this:
Mafia team selects town role
Town selects mafia role
Mafia bans a role
Town bans a role
Mafia selects their own role
Town selects their own role
Obviously this would be a bit tougher to balance though, so it would probably need a few tweaks. Feel free to share any thoughts on how the setup could be improved or alternate roles to consider.
The actual poisons were rather lackluster. While balancing, we felt the setup was pretty fair prior to the introduction of the daily poison mechanics, so we didn't want to make them to be too punishing to the town. However, many of the poisons turned out to be pretty useless, as there was obviously an optimal time to select each poison. In a future version of the setup, I think I would start with two poisons to choose from. Each day, a new poison would be introduced to choose from, while the unselected poison from the previous day carries over. I think this would force town to possibly select a more dangerous poison early, to avoid a late game scenario where they may only choose from two deadly poisons. Alternatively, we could have limited the poison pool to six options, forcing the more dangerious poisons to eventually be selected.
As for the actual game, it appeared that the lack of communication and coordination was the biggest flaw from the scum team. A irc channel is incredibly valueable just to ensure everyone is on the same page. I think the vote encryption plan was an example of a plan whose benefit was not worth the cost. The town cred may have helped out, but the risk of the plan backfiring, as we saw, was pretty high. One of the biggest balance concerns was that the town would be able to generate a list check from the scum role voitng, which is why we decided to provide the scum team with the voting outcome. I think there should have been a much stronger push for a certain scum role, to ensure the voting results didn't get them in trouble. With the five most experienced players (at least in regards to games played on tl) rolling town, I think the mafia team could have taken better advantage of the paranoia between vets. Something that seemed to hurt the mafia team was their response to the Toad case. Rather than coming out strong against him or defending him, they waited to see how the town responded and came out looking badly. Shooting bugs helped relieve a lot of the distrust beween these players. In this setup, it was extremely important to be able to snipe a blue early to prevent a 3v2 scenario where two of the blues are town. This is even more important when the innocent child has been selected. I think this game may have gone pretty different if sloosh was shot night one as planned, rather than bugs. I would have liked to see the scum team try to play it out in the end, at least attempting a fake claim. Opting to not use the framer ability on night two or night three seems sub-optimal.
My biggest complaint for town would be the shut-down of discussion on day three. If the mafia had sucessfully sniped the tracker or innocent child that night, then town would have been in a fairly tough spot. Even if risk was unable to sucessfully convince everyone of his innocence, I think he should have pushed earlier for discussion on alternate candidates or candidates for the following lynch. I was pretty worried about Zephirdd being mislynched after the blue hint. If town had pushed harder for a role claim from him, he may have been in a tough situation when forced to claim vanilla town. Radfield did a good job recovering after day one and SlOosh and prplhz did a good job surviving until late game. The timing of the innocent child claim was optimal.
Thanks again for playing!
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