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I still think we should assign #1 AND #2 CPR as some kind of fool-safety for multiple reasons.
1) If someone who does whatever he wants to do we still have the CPR denied
2) We have the #2 draft for town information / a possible claim. If he get's a VT he knows #1 is the CPR, if he get's the CPR he knows #1 is not CPR which means #1 is something like a VET / Hider. Mafia is more likely to shoot into people from 1-10 than 11-20 imo because the early ones are more likely to get a blue role because they the chance of picking something that was already picked is lower making it a nice blue-hit for mafia, which is the reason a VET / hider is the only thing a townie would ever choose if he disagrees with our plan to deny CPR. Not going to say #2 should claim that, but that kind of information can be useful for a townie nevertheless
3) If #1 is mafia they can't just not choose CPR to give it to another mafia, because if that would be the case mafia would get the 2 most powerful roles that way.
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On May 15 2012 06:42 hiro protagonist wrote:EBWOP: Basicly, I think that using roles to control the top spots picks is superior to using double picks because: *power roles that can cotrol the cpr doc are more usful later in the game when we can use the role for towns advatage. * choseing a RBer denys' the role for scum. * Double picking will lead to VTowns, but not VScums. Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 06:16 deconduo wrote:
If we do decide to go with set picks, we need to have a solid decision before the draft order goes through. Mafia will change their preferences based on what positions they get so we can't have any more discussion once the order is revealed. 100% agree. We make a plan, and there is no changing it after the draft phase.
well we're only talking about one guy who is supposed to doublepick and I think we can deal with a single VT on top of what we're going to get anyways if that helps us with keeping KP low.
Also it's nice information for the guy who ends up being a VT.
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On May 15 2012 07:39 Misder wrote:
I would rather have RB be used for a more useful purpose than just defending him(her)self. RB differs from CPR and Janitor in that those two roles cannot be used as town whereas RB can be.
Also, with your plan, we still cannot guarantee that the first person has CPR, which means that mafia can easily transfer it down to a scumbuddy without us knowing, which is extremely dangerous.
I would rather have vanilla townies than risk having mafia have 2 KP.
Imo Town RB is about the hardest role you can play. I think it's way easier to play a nice town-CPR even on day than it is to play a nice Town-RB. I say that although I totally agree with Qatol saying that the CPR is incredible hard to play the first 1 or even 2 days and totally agree with him saying that it's at least a coinflip considering wether a townie or a mafia get's hit.
So no, I don't actually think you can put good use to a town-RB, especially not early on as in n1 and n2.
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Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town?
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On May 15 2012 08:16 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town? Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill.
that seems stupid. Why include a tracker when mafia / SK don't have to deliver the killing blow oO
Do we have that stated by GM somewhere?
Can the Tracker find out about a Goon mafia or a Goon SK killing someone when following them?
If that's the case, yeah Tracker is really stupid for town but I can't think of GM including a Tracker if he can't track normal mafia / SK kills.
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On May 15 2012 08:52 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 08:30 Toadesstern wrote:On May 15 2012 08:16 Qatol wrote:On May 15 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Also someone (I think Qatol?) said something about the Tracker being a horrible choice for town. I actually like it way more than the two DT's and think it's the best information role together with gun-bob for town.
What's the reasoning behind saying the Tracker is a horrible choice for town? Tracker only follows mafia/SK to the kill if they used their role to make the kill or they are vanilla. For example, a serial killer veteran would never seem to go anywhere if tracked. Similarly, a doctor mafia member protecting a teammate would be tracked to the teammate, not the mafia kill. that seems stupid. Why include a tracker when mafia / SK don't have to deliver the killing blow oO Do we have that stated by GM somewhere? Can the Tracker find out about a Goon mafia or a Goon SK killing someone when following them?If that's the case, yeah Tracker is really stupid for town but I can't think of GM including a Tracker if he can't track normal mafia / SK kills. It's in the role description. Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:06 GMarshal wrote:
Tracker Follow someone and find out the first person they visited that night. (role abilities supersede alignment based abilities for the purpose of tracking. E.G if you were to track a scum roleblocker, you would see who he roleblocked, not who he killed. If you tracked a scum Veteran, you'd see him stay home, even if he carried out a kill, as his role ability (Veteran) is what you track, not his factional kill)
This is also how it worked in previous PYPs (PYP2 for example).
well that is stupid. In that case I agree, the Tracker is retarded for town.
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Come on, this really is like WBGs C9++ all over again just that Qatol has taken over Sandrobas place.
I tell everyone that making sure mafia can't grab the CPR should be number #1 priority and we should make it something like #1 CPR #2 CPR or #1 CPR #2RB and that Sandrobas plan sounds more promising to mafia than it does for town and everyone is like "screw that guy, Sandroba is right, Toad is just telling bullshit". Just that people don't call me retarded this game because GM would probably modkill for that, so it's a more pleasent way of calling me retarded while still meaning the same.
Qatol gets in here, basicly tells the exact same things I've been telling people and everyone is suddenly like "well that guy has a point! That sounds really awesome and logical! We should totally do that!"
You've simply got to be kidding me. But yeah I'm fine with not getting credit for the basic idea and telling people they are wrong in sheeping Sandroba and that we should instead try to deny the CPR 100% as long as people end up doing the right thing. That way Qatol gets shot and I'm safe while being the hero town needs.
+ Show Spoiler +If that's not a nomination for Drama Queen award I don't know what else I need to do to get that award
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I don't need points in anyones book for pushing plans. Anyone uncertain about my alignment can just pm Rad and ask him what he thinks about me. As far as I recall he was willing to function as a coach in this game. I heard Rad is really good at figuring out my alignment.
It just strikes me that I am apparently doing the right things every single game (except for AC!) but am completly failing at making clear why I am doing those.
Everyone calls my cases retarded, even if I copy & paste them from a skype log with Sandroba and apparently my "case" on why we need to deny those KP roles and especially the CPR to was crappy as well because everyone disagreed with it yet people think that Qatol is right with everything he said.
Funny thing is that I thought I covered most things myself. I did an example showing that we can lose after 2 cycles if mafia gets the CPR to show how gamebreaking that role could be and people didn't say a word about that, yet when Qatol said the same thing (he called it slowing down the game) everyone agreed about it.
It was merely a funny (?) observation.
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On May 15 2012 15:22 Carolus Magnus wrote:
Sure you know where it is. You don't know the alignment of the dude though. So your plan is to tie even more roles to prevent Cpr from acting. That imho sucks balls. That are 4 other possible kp sources so by the time you can establish constant kp is being used it doesn't matter much anymore. If you invest so much into denying cpr mafia will simply not try to get and leave useless cpr in towns hands and get an advantage for free. They can ensure colision to avoid any of the very top spots easily.
I'm not assigning GF because it's stronger than other kp roles, it's because 1) It's useless for town, so mafia can get it a relative low spots if we don't assign it; 2) It has 1 kp AND is imune to role checks. Very strong for scum, specially if we don't know where it is.
nah the plan right now is really just to to make it
#1 CPR
#2 Janitor
#3 Rnd between CPR and Janitor for maximum wifom and confusion!
So we really don't add more roles in there to deal with the CPR. I'm just saying that I think a town RB is almost useless but it's still decent or good for mafia. So if someone wants to deny that we might as well put it to use and make it a fool-safety for the CPR.
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the point about those DT plans is that we usualy don't have 20 cycles to find out what's going on...
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On May 15 2012 23:14 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2012 23:06 Toadesstern wrote:
the point about those DT plans is that we usualy don't have 20 cycles to find out what's going on... Good point T_T, but scum does thin out the herd though, Toad what do you think of how dangerous is the roles I pointed out?
angry vig, traitor, pardoner and politician?
Angry vig is nice for mafia because as we're trying to keep KP low there's people who are going to pick into vet / medic / jailor (that kind of stuff) and 2 KP just kills those things even if they end up targeting the protected guy. So if you are somewhat at the top I agree, picking angry vig might be a nice option as well.
Traitor is a no-brainer. It straight up buffs mafia and nerves town while making sure you end up playing with the buffed party and you might end up screwing the town plan on top of it (which is why I still like the double assign for CPR).
Considering strenght of the roles this one is probably stronger than GF and the likes but not stronger than a CPR. However, a Traitor that is not able to be a real mafia later on is really lame to play and it's about the most boring role you could imagine.
Pardoner is somewhat of a gimmick role. It gives mafia one additional cycle in worst cases and if mafia have a lot of CP that's a lot. So if Mafia could grab CPR and one more KP thing that could end up devasting. However no townie would ever use this role. Never ever. So everyone who gets pardoned is probably considered to be confirmed mafia so the only use I see in a Pardoner is to either give mafia the one additional night phase as a play of time or to just pardon a townie lynch, which is a wasted cycle and on top of that peoople will think the townie is a mafia and lynch him again. So it's really 2 more cycles.
I think it's really powerful gimmick-role when used the right way. People I talked to pre-game however didn't agree on the powerful part.
Politician I don't see him as a huge threat.
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On May 16 2012 07:39 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 07:23 slOosh wrote:
Hider is strong because you are saving yourself (unlike medic) and its infinite KP proof (unlike vet). Getting stacked is highly unlikely given the setup, and the angry vig only has one shot. The chance of dying by hiding behind the wrong person far outweighs this benefit imo. I would take vet over hider any time.
you can't die by hiding behind the wrong person, unless you are talking about hiding behind someone who's going to die very early making your protection vanish. But yeah I agree I'd choose vet over Hider as well.
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On May 16 2012 07:56 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote:On May 16 2012 07:39 deconduo wrote:On May 16 2012 07:23 slOosh wrote:
Hider is strong because you are saving yourself (unlike medic) and its infinite KP proof (unlike vet). Getting stacked is highly unlikely given the setup, and the angry vig only has one shot. The chance of dying by hiding behind the wrong person far outweighs this benefit imo. I would take vet over hider any time. you can't die by hiding behind the wrong person, unless you are talking about hiding behind someone who's going to die very early making your protection vanish. But yeah I agree I'd choose vet over Hider as well. I think you misunderstand the hider role. If I hide behind X and someone shoots X, we both die.
oh, true. Just more reasons to pick vet over hider.
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[10, 10] over here. Thought noone is retarded enough to pick that 
Probulous probably doesn't know the game has started yet. He never posted something and GMs phrase makes it look like that happened.
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we had a plan for a reason...
Everyone agreed that denying CPR and Janitor is better for town than the best blue role could ever be for town. denying CPR is basicly a medic that saves the right person on every night and if you ended up saving 5 people cycle 1 - 5 with a medic but didn't save someone night 6, congratz you're worse than a normal CPR pick as a town medic.
We had more than enough time to talk about this and EVERYBODY agreed. At least nobody disagreed although we told people to speak up if they disagree with the plan and nobody did. We already talked about why changing the plan isn't an option anymore once numbers are out.
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Is it a good idea to talk about scumreads yet or should we wait for d1?
We sure as hell don't talk about plans anymore because as mentioned, we can't change them once the numbers are out so might as well use the time to talk about scumreads when we're "not allowed" to talk about something else.
Because I still want Sandroba dead.
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Yeah Mattchew gives a bad vibe but he usually does that as far as I can see.
Too early to say something about him imo. Will comment on him the next 48-ish hours.
Risk has basicly claimed traitor with his most reason post.
On May 16 2012 20:13 risk.nuke wrote:
So many plans, I'm going to think on this. I may or may not follow them. I may or may not tell you if I decide to follow them. Honestly though, your arguments arent nearly as persuasive as you think they are.
Because the only reason to think of "town could lose before d3" as a not persuasive argument is if you are not town or if you are considering to pick Traitor. Not sure if Risk is smart enough to do that on purpose as a townie to lure mafias into picking Janitor when he really never considered to pick something else and only wanted to look like he is considering something else.
Also take a look at how cocky he makes that sound. So really he either is a genius town right now who tries his best at wifom and uses fake-emotions on purpose to screw with mafia or he's mafia himself / willing to play mafia.
Sandroba is usually a really smart man. A really really smart man. He destroys mafia within 2 cycles of a game or even within the first.That's the usual Sandroba
So far what I saw from him pregame wasn't that smart as all because frankly he should have realized that making sure CPR is not in mafia hands has to be the #1 priority to at least have a chance as town.
So those 2 are my biggest problem right now.
Fancy conclusion
Sandroba looks really bad imo
Risk either looks incredible good or incredible bad. Not sure which one but there's pretty much nothing inbetween.
Prepost Edit: Oh and yeah. I said the rolecop looks more like a mafia role in this setup but given the situation I'd love a town rolecop to figure things out right now.
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and I'm off for now. Going to my parents place by train
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On May 16 2012 21:21 zelblade wrote:
I personally feel that we shouldnt be talking about scum reads, not at this point when roles are confirmed. Doing so may influence a heavily scrutinized scum player to pick up something like GF giving them a free kill if they get lynched.
Also rolecop is definately useful for town.
Hey Toad why are you explaining risk's actions for him? You just gave him the perfect excuse if he was scum and trying out a plan. Sure we might have a rolecop to confirm things, but theres always the chance mafia could pick it up.
Back home: Because it's no problem at all and we got a pefect solution for the risk thing. I would not have explained this if it was really troublesome.
Here's what we got:
If Risk is Mafia he picks janitor because it's good. If we see someone use that power, we lynch him = gg because we lynched a mafia
If Risk is Town he either sticks with the plan and will never use the janitor and therefor be one of the most powerful blue roles we've got = gg, that's what we want
If Risk is town and seriously considering Traitor we lynch him the moment we see a janitor = gg. We either completly denied the Janitor although Risk picked Traitor because if they use it risk is dead or we lynched a Traitor.
If Risk is town and picking something else that is not Traitor he's playing against his wincon.
That's why I explained it. I have no idea what's going on in his mind but it's not even an issue.
And the biggest problem for our plan is if #1 or #2 picks Traitor. However with Risks posting we have a DAMN GOOD reason for both of them not to pick traitor. Risk gets lynched if he picks traitor and #1 is scared as shit that Risk might really pick traitor. If #1 picks traitor and #2 picks traitor as well (as he claimed) we have a townie who knows of a townie that is Traitor.
#1 simply can't risk that and has to stick with the plan
#2 has to pick Janitor or he gets lynched
So while Risks post looks incredible bad (for reasons I already mentioned) I don't actually have a problem with that because that very post is forcing him and #1 to stick with the plan and therefore incredible pro-town although it might not be intended that way :p
Still catching up. Will post on the fly.
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On May 17 2012 01:03 deconduo wrote:
I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose.
exactly.
If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor.
So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p
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EPT
