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On May 16 2012 23:51 marvellosity wrote:
More to the point, why do you think they'd be confused and panicking?
Is this what typically happens after 8 hours of day 1 discussion?
I said it wont affect them at all if you bothered to read before you spurted out your bunch of nonsense.
You claim us discussing them will affect their rolepicks? I find that very unlikely since their picks will be determined by their positions in the draft and what they think they can get. They can't simply trade roles between eachother and give a player who's more heavily scrutinised a certain role. And if they start doing that they will have less time to think about their new roles to pick.
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On May 16 2012 23:15 zelblade wrote:
@Qatol
Why do you want us to reveal what roles we would like to be taken for sure? All this does is give a decent amount of information for scum considering how most people would probably pick what they feel is best - AKA what they reveal in the thread to be the best for town. This seems like its going to give mafia a rough idea of what people are going to pick, allowing them to not only snipe important roles but also discourages town from selecting stronger roles in fear of clashes.
For instance, if Sentinel states that he thinks, say, medic and JOAT are important roles, scum will know that he is probably going to pick either. This not only discourages town from picking one of these really useful roles up (since they think that sentinel probably is selecting one and dont want to become a VT) but also lets scum know that he is, more likely than not, one of these roles.
The point was supposed to be that people with low picks can give advice to people with high picks and vice versa. The idea was that this way people can try to give advice to players in another part of the queue without revealing their pick. That was why I specifically left out the people in the middle of the queue. Notice that the question directed towards people higher in the queue says that the role has a danger of not being picked at all. This is an attempt to allow people give advice to people in the middle/bottom of the queue without too much danger of talking about your role choice or tipping your hand in any way. Notice I also said it can be a role you want to take yourself.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On May 16 2012 23:55 risk.nuke wrote:
I said it wont affect them at all if you bothered to read before you spurted out your bunch of nonsense.
Accusing me of not reading when you're the one who had an entire day to raise objections to the plan being raised and yet sat there twiddling your silly little thumbs.
Nice.
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Qatol that sort of discussion will benefit the mafia more then town.
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On May 17 2012 00:02 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:55 risk.nuke wrote:
I said it wont affect them at all if you bothered to read before you spurted out your bunch of nonsense.
Accusing me of not reading when you're the one who had an entire day to raise objections to the plan being raised and yet sat there twiddling your silly little thumbs. Nice.
Why I did not read the thread last night is completely irrelevant to you not reading the posts of the person you are arguing with. Now don't spam post unless you put some thought behind it.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On May 17 2012 00:05 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 00:02 marvellosity wrote:On May 16 2012 23:55 risk.nuke wrote:
I said it wont affect them at all if you bothered to read before you spurted out your bunch of nonsense.
Accusing me of not reading when you're the one who had an entire day to raise objections to the plan being raised and yet sat there twiddling your silly little thumbs. Nice. Why I did not read the thread last night is completely irrelevant to you not reading the posts of the person you are arguing with. Now don't spam post unless you put some thought behind it.
You obviously aren't coming across very clearly then, are you?
On May 16 2012 23:36 risk.nuke wrote:
Ebwop: If you don't understand why it's beneficial to have a confused and panicking scumteam worrying about reads when they are picking their roles I hope those underlined words helped you figure it out.
This reads as you think discussing scumreads will cause panick and confusion. If this isn't what you meant, then write better.
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On May 17 2012 00:02 risk.nuke wrote:
Qatol that sort of discussion will benefit the mafia more then town.
That's why I asked for comments. Can you explain why in depth?
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On May 17 2012 00:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 00:05 risk.nuke wrote:On May 17 2012 00:02 marvellosity wrote:On May 16 2012 23:55 risk.nuke wrote:
I said it wont affect them at all if you bothered to read before you spurted out your bunch of nonsense.
Accusing me of not reading when you're the one who had an entire day to raise objections to the plan being raised and yet sat there twiddling your silly little thumbs. Nice. Why I did not read the thread last night is completely irrelevant to you not reading the posts of the person you are arguing with. Now don't spam post unless you put some thought behind it. You obviously aren't coming across very clearly then, are you? Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 23:36 risk.nuke wrote:
Ebwop: If you don't understand why it's beneficial to have a confused and panicking scumteam worrying about reads when they are picking their roles I hope those underlined words helped you figure it out. This reads as you think discussing scumreads will cause panick and confusion. If this isn't what you meant, then write better.
Guys please stop insulting each other. It isn't helping anything.
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On May 17 2012 00:08 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 00:02 risk.nuke wrote:
Qatol that sort of discussion will benefit the mafia more then town. That's why I asked for comments. Can you explain why in depth?
I'm of the opinion that any information about what roles will be where will just benefit the mafia more then the town because townies don't need to know where other townie powerroles more likely are.
And by trying to work around that as you say (discuss picks you might self take) you're just setting traps for other townies to fall in or nullifying everything and to some extent inform the mafia how your minds think.
Best case scenario the posts are worthless and all they did was making the thread heavier to read.
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As my role is already chosen I don't have any problem giving my opinions. I've mentioned a lot of this throughout the thread anyway. I would recommend that other people think before replying to Qatol however, does your reply help mafia work out what role you are picking.
On May 16 2012 22:56 Qatol wrote:
What two pro-town roles would you like to see taken for sure by someone in the queue? These can be roles you are considering taking yourself. The point is you want to see this role in the game for sure and you think there is a chance the role will be passed over entirely.
As has been mentioned, BB is probably the strongest DT role we have and often gets underestimated imo. Mason is nice as it gives a 100% confirmed town, something that no other role can do. Also the power of two good towns in communication is huge. Given that sandroba has asked to take it, I don't think anyone should oppose him.
On May 16 2012 22:56 Qatol wrote:
What two roles do you think the mafia/SK want to grab early? These can be roles which will help the town a ton which you think the mafia/SK will try to deny or these can be roles which you think will help the mafia/SK significantly. These can still be roles you are considering taking yourself.
As mafia I would prioritize KP roles. Trying to kill off town as soon as possible would be the goal. I might try to deny BB/rolecop/JOAT as well, but that would be less important. Vig roles for those high in the draft.
As SK I would take JOAT/traitor if high up in the draft. These roles either give a large amount of flexibility, especially when paired with the night kill and extra life. Lower down the draft I would go for vet or politician. Vet gives more survivability when the biggest risk for SK is getting killed by mafia, especially as SK is immune to BB. Politician makes winning much easier and safer if the SK gets to endgame, but has a bigger risk if rolechecked.
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On May 16 2012 21:21 zelblade wrote:
I personally feel that we shouldnt be talking about scum reads, not at this point when roles are confirmed. Doing so may influence a heavily scrutinized scum player to pick up something like GF giving them a free kill if they get lynched.
Also rolecop is definately useful for town.
Hey Toad why are you explaining risk's actions for him? You just gave him the perfect excuse if he was scum and trying out a plan. Sure we might have a rolecop to confirm things, but theres always the chance mafia could pick it up.
Back home: Because it's no problem at all and we got a pefect solution for the risk thing. I would not have explained this if it was really troublesome.
Here's what we got:
If Risk is Mafia he picks janitor because it's good. If we see someone use that power, we lynch him = gg because we lynched a mafia
If Risk is Town he either sticks with the plan and will never use the janitor and therefor be one of the most powerful blue roles we've got = gg, that's what we want
If Risk is town and seriously considering Traitor we lynch him the moment we see a janitor = gg. We either completly denied the Janitor although Risk picked Traitor because if they use it risk is dead or we lynched a Traitor.
If Risk is town and picking something else that is not Traitor he's playing against his wincon.
That's why I explained it. I have no idea what's going on in his mind but it's not even an issue.
And the biggest problem for our plan is if #1 or #2 picks Traitor. However with Risks posting we have a DAMN GOOD reason for both of them not to pick traitor. Risk gets lynched if he picks traitor and #1 is scared as shit that Risk might really pick traitor. If #1 picks traitor and #2 picks traitor as well (as he claimed) we have a townie who knows of a townie that is Traitor.
#1 simply can't risk that and has to stick with the plan
#2 has to pick Janitor or he gets lynched
So while Risks post looks incredible bad (for reasons I already mentioned) I don't actually have a problem with that because that very post is forcing him and #1 to stick with the plan and therefore incredible pro-town although it might not be intended that way :p
Still catching up. Will post on the fly.
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On May 17 2012 00:55 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2012 21:21 zelblade wrote:
I personally feel that we shouldnt be talking about scum reads, not at this point when roles are confirmed. Doing so may influence a heavily scrutinized scum player to pick up something like GF giving them a free kill if they get lynched.
Also rolecop is definately useful for town.
Hey Toad why are you explaining risk's actions for him? You just gave him the perfect excuse if he was scum and trying out a plan. Sure we might have a rolecop to confirm things, but theres always the chance mafia could pick it up. Back home: Because it's no problem at all and we got a pefect solution for the risk thing. I would not have explained this if it was really troublesome. Here's what we got: If Risk is Mafia he picks janitor because it's good. If we see someone use that power, we lynch him = gg because we lynched a mafia If Risk is Town he either sticks with the plan and will never use the janitor and therefor be one of the most powerful blue roles we've got = gg, that's what we want If Risk is town and seriously considering Traitor we lynch him the moment we see a janitor = gg. We either completly denied the Janitor although Risk picked Traitor because if they use it risk is dead or we lynched a Traitor. If Risk is town and picking something else that is not Traitor he's playing against his wincon. That's why I explained it. I have no idea what's going on in his mind but it's not even an issue. And the biggest problem for our plan is if #1 or #2 picks Traitor. However with Risks posting we have a DAMN GOOD reason for both of them not to pick traitor. Risk gets lynched if he picks traitor and #1 is scared as shit that Risk might really pick traitor. If #1 picks traitor and #2 picks traitor as well (as he claimed) we have a townie who knows of a townie that is Traitor. #1 simply can't risk that and has to stick with the plan #2 has to pick Janitor or he gets lynched So while Risks post looks incredible bad (for reasons I already mentioned) I don't actually have a problem with that because that very post is forcing him and #1 to stick with the plan and therefore incredible pro-town although it might not be intended that way :p Still catching up. Will post on the fly.
This is called selective reasoning. And my response to that is. Haha no.
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I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose.
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On May 17 2012 01:03 deconduo wrote:
I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose.
exactly.
If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor.
So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p
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On May 17 2012 01:07 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 01:03 deconduo wrote:
I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose. exactly. If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor. So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p
Yeah and so the only reasons for risk not to want the plan to succeed are:
-He's town that wants to take traitor safely
-He's scum that wants to be able to use janitor without getting lynched
-He's SK that wants a better role than janitor
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On May 17 2012 01:03 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 00:55 Toadesstern wrote:On May 16 2012 21:21 zelblade wrote:
I personally feel that we shouldnt be talking about scum reads, not at this point when roles are confirmed. Doing so may influence a heavily scrutinized scum player to pick up something like GF giving them a free kill if they get lynched.
Also rolecop is definately useful for town.
Hey Toad why are you explaining risk's actions for him? You just gave him the perfect excuse if he was scum and trying out a plan. Sure we might have a rolecop to confirm things, but theres always the chance mafia could pick it up. Back home: Because it's no problem at all and we got a pefect solution for the risk thing. I would not have explained this if it was really troublesome. Here's what we got: If Risk is Mafia he picks janitor because it's good. If we see someone use that power, we lynch him = gg because we lynched a mafia If Risk is Town he either sticks with the plan and will never use the janitor and therefor be one of the most powerful blue roles we've got = gg, that's what we want If Risk is town and seriously considering Traitor we lynch him the moment we see a janitor = gg. We either completly denied the Janitor although Risk picked Traitor because if they use it risk is dead or we lynched a Traitor. If Risk is town and picking something else that is not Traitor he's playing against his wincon. That's why I explained it. I have no idea what's going on in his mind but it's not even an issue. And the biggest problem for our plan is if #1 or #2 picks Traitor. However with Risks posting we have a DAMN GOOD reason for both of them not to pick traitor. Risk gets lynched if he picks traitor and #1 is scared as shit that Risk might really pick traitor. If #1 picks traitor and #2 picks traitor as well (as he claimed) we have a townie who knows of a townie that is Traitor. #1 simply can't risk that and has to stick with the plan #2 has to pick Janitor or he gets lynched So while Risks post looks incredible bad (for reasons I already mentioned) I don't actually have a problem with that because that very post is forcing him and #1 to stick with the plan and therefore incredible pro-town although it might not be intended that way :p Still catching up. Will post on the fly. This is called selective reasoning. And my response to that is. Haha no.
No it's not. We are trying to deny two roles that are by far the most powerful roles for mafia and are either bad or not good for town.
A vig with infinite bullets sounds nice but it's really not THAT good, but a medic who saves 1 townie GRANTED every night for free without being able to be roleblocked or getting killed (hint, it's still the Town CPR. I'm talking about the denied KP every night) is the really powerful part of the town-CPR.
For mafia the doubled KP is obviously the strong part.
The Janitor however is somewhat strong for mafia. Not even half as strong as a mafia CPR but it's still strong. At the same time it's a completly retarded role for town because it does nothing, so no townie would choose that which makes it a no-brainer for mafia, which is the reason, we want to deny that. That's the strong part about the janitor.
So no, there is no reason for a townie to pick anything other than the janitor in your position and it's not selective reasoning.
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On May 17 2012 01:11 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2012 01:07 Toadesstern wrote:On May 17 2012 01:03 deconduo wrote:
I just realised it would be suicide for me or risk to pick traitor. 3rd pick RNGing between CPR/Janitor stops us from doing so as well as stopping us dropping the roles down. I hadn't really planned to take it, but its good that its definitely not an option now I suppose. exactly. If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor. So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p Yeah and so the only reasons for risk not to want the plan to succeed are: -He's town that wants to take traitor safely -He's scum that wants to be able to use janitor without getting lynched -He's SK that wants a better role than janitor
or he's a townie trying to look like that and therefore making every other townie not choose traitor because he "is" already traitor.
I don't care about his alignment, the moment we know he's not a janitor we lynch him and that's about him. No rolecop needed, no thing. It won't get any clearer.
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I'm Town.
I still don't understand your reasoning to why you think I would pick traitor. You're just wifoming your own head dizzy.
I'm not going to pick janitor.
I'm not just saying I'm not going to pick janitor, I'm really not goin to pick janitor what are you going to do about that toad?
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On May 17 2012 01:18 risk.nuke wrote:
I'm Town.
I still don't understand your reasoning to why you think I would pick traitor. You're just wifoming your own head dizzy.
I'm not going to pick janitor.
I'm not just saying I'm not going to pick janitor, I'm really not goin to pick janitor what are you going to do about that toad?
we're going to lynch you if that happens because you're playing against the town wincon.
Therefore you either get banned if you do that or you will flip mafia / SK / traitor. I don't have a problem with either of those.
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@qatol: I don't actually think there are that many pro-town roles that would go unpicked - maybe jailkeeper? maybe doctor? Regardless I don't really think people in the middle need advice.
This risk.nuke thing is very interesting. I didn't interact much with him in space ship - sandroba was he a pretty hard-headed player that didn't like changing his mind and always trusted his own opinions over others? I view him as having hotshot townie syndrome at the moment.
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EPT
