/in as replacement
/in as replacement for host
/in as a replacement for a replacement (if the replacement shows up dead don't look at me)
/in as the hydra of an already existant player
Surely I at least one of these "/in"s is valid right?
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
gonzaw
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/in as replacement /in as replacement for host /in as a replacement for a replacement (if the replacement shows up dead don't look at me) /in as the hydra of an already existant player Surely I at least one of these "/in"s is valid right? | ||
gonzaw
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This "Liar Game Mini Mafia" is not real. It's just a distraction. As you see, there are a lot of "top tier" names in this setup (Ace, Foolishness, syllogism, Mr Wiggles, possibly Radfield, etc). But why aren't all other "top tier" players playing? Why isn't Grey, or iGrok, or GMarshall playing at all or not even interested? Ah! I'm giving away too much info, but johnny, be sure that you won't actually be missing the "real" Liar Game I won't reveal any more... | ||
gonzaw
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D73AayT18XzD0AqfU496 Tos9EYdnLHsVKQdHSnko 4i1TGIbnUIvDPD99y2ym F4j6jdbbi6OIOAlbLnzW You know what to do | ||
gonzaw
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On April 29 2012 08:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Since when did I become a top-tier player, haha? Oh...so you still don't know...? I better keep my mouth shut then. | ||
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On April 30 2012 01:51 Foolishness wrote: Show nested quote + On April 29 2012 17:43 Ver wrote: I'd prefer revote as well, though it's a bit tricky because then the town can try to abuse it by just extending days forever to get more analysis time. We can forbid abusing it I guess but that's such a gray area. With smaller #'s of people we can accelerate the cycles as well though. Also considering not letting people change their votes because their is no benefit for voting prematurely like in a real game (pressure, changing direction etc) since its all privately and it's going to be a big headache for us + likelihood if mistakes if people change frequently. I don't know how you're going to go about forbidding that since this is a PM game. If it all gets organized behind the scenes in PM land what are you going to do about it? And if the numbers get low to 4 or 6 people alive it will be even harder to "forbid" something like that (since it is more likely to happen). Regardless if it is forbidden, if I know that people are voting a certain way I'm going to be voting to try to get to that tie scenario. Yes I agree don't let people change their votes. Well, then I guess townies could lie and say they'll vote someone, and vote someone else, so the scum can't willingly force a draw | ||
gonzaw
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gonzaw
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On April 30 2012 12:05 Cephiro wrote: Sheth+Gonzaw+Me scumteam winning, calling it now, deja vu! :D Hehe, those were good times Also, lol this is a PM game, didn't notice I won't be PMing much, unless it's to coordinate things or ask for specific information. I played a PM game before, and even though very few people PMed me it was a pain in the ass to follow. @wgb: I'd say we need to come up with a plan for Round A as well. Even if we scumhunt normally, and find scum, if that scum is never on the majority of Round A we will never be able to lynch him. Scum know each other and may have some roles that manipulate the answers and stuff, so maybe they can make a scum of their choice always be a minority or something (for instance like in the actual manga) One thing I was thinking is, for instance to scumhunt normally this round, and have EVERYBODY claim what their answer will be in the thread (YES or NO) We force the "scummy" players to vote for the mayority, and the most townie ones vote for the minority to save them from Round B. Oh, talking about that, if someone PMs you telling you about creating a group with a "foolproof" plan where you vote the same way or something, don't buy it | ||
gonzaw
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On April 30 2012 13:11 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Well, I agree with gonzaw's statement that a strategy for Round A is also necessary. Scum are able to coordinate their votes, so they can always split themselves so that only half end up in the lynch pool ever if we let people just do whatever. So, we need some kind of strategy to make sure that we can get a decent amount of scummy people in the majority, that we can actually hold people to it, and that's feasible. Obviously, an optimal strategy for lynch choice would be for every person to vote the same way. Then, everyone makes it into Phase B, and no one is safe from being able to be lynched. This makes Phase B more complicated, but I think it's worth it for the choice. What do people think? Results are revealed afterwards, so we should know if someone's lying and made it into the minority. Anyone who does, we can lynch. I don't see a reason townies need to worry about being immune to lynch this early in the game. Perhaps in the later stages, where it's feasible scum rig the votes to kill them, but not now. If someone tries that now, we'll know about the ninja bandwagon, because again, the results are revealed. We should try to force scum to play by our rules. They'll be a lot more careful, because there's two scum teams, so I don't see them trying anything too ballsy. Any disadvantage going into the late-game will translate into the other scum-team having more influence than them. Also, because I can, and the name of the game, what do people think of LaL? :p If EVERYBODY arrives at Round B, it's very likely A LOT of townies will be killed. Think about it. All townies will vote for their 5 top town reads (or stack votes on someone). What happens to the "bad" townies that nobody will vote for? They will all die. Scum won't vote for them since they know no other townie will vote for them either. We could end up with various town lynches on D1. That's why I wanted to come up with something that will make only the scummy people on the mayority, or at least, have the players most likely to be town in the minority On April 30 2012 13:11 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On April 30 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: One thing I was thinking is, for instance to scumhunt normally this round, and have EVERYBODY claim what their answer will be in the thread (YES or NO) We force the "scummy" players to vote for the mayority, and the most townie ones vote for the minority to save them from Round B. And how would that be useful? As nice as it would to believe people will vote for something co-operatively in a game of this size, it just won't happen. If you somehow manage to gather and confirm all townies, and ensure they vote in a certain pattern, that still enables scum to do whatever they want, and even if they outed themselves, they may still be able to get in the minority constantly. It's just not gonna work in a game where votes are hidden until the results. (Where it will be obvious who voted for what) If everybody follows the plan, then those that vote different than they told are scum. After that, you can either get a vig to shoot them (if there is any), maybe luckily have the other scum team shoot them, or change the voting system on later days to ensure that player becomes mayority. The point is that either you have a claimed scum, or the plan goes through I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. Regarding PMs... anyone can PM me and say/ask anything they want, but I promise nothing to no-one as of yet. The first hours of Day 1 are there to come up with an epic strategy and have people to comment on them and take stances. You can't tell me "concentrate on scumhunting" 1 hour after the Day started. Trust me, I am trying to scumhunt by generating discussion and forcing people to take stances on it. | ||
gonzaw
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On April 30 2012 15:36 EchelonTee wrote: RE: Gonzaw Show nested quote + On April 30 2012 13:23 gonzaw wrote: On April 30 2012 13:11 Cephiro wrote: On April 30 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote: One thing I was thinking is, for instance to scumhunt normally this round, and have EVERYBODY claim what their answer will be in the thread (YES or NO) We force the "scummy" players to vote for the mayority, and the most townie ones vote for the minority to save them from Round B. And how would that be useful? As nice as it would to believe people will vote for something co-operatively in a game of this size, it just won't happen. If you somehow manage to gather and confirm all townies, and ensure they vote in a certain pattern, that still enables scum to do whatever they want, and even if they outed themselves, they may still be able to get in the minority constantly. It's just not gonna work in a game where votes are hidden until the results. (Where it will be obvious who voted for what) If everybody follows the plan, then those that vote different than they told are scum. After that, you can either get a vig to shoot them (if there is any), maybe luckily have the other scum team shoot them, or change the voting system on later days to ensure that player becomes mayority. The point is that either you have a claimed scum, or the plan goes through Gonzaw, the problem with what you have been advocating (everyone announce votes, we force scummy people to be in majority) is that non-cooperative overconfident players (read: Palmar, Ace), will want to be in the minority, and that doesn't imply that they are scum or town. Simply that they would not want to follow the plan doesn't mean they should be autovig'd. While I do agree that people who announce a vote, but end up voting otherwise should be scrutinized to hell, this sort of hardline plan will not work. @Foolishness: Do you have any ideas that would actually allow town to control how many people end up in the majority/minority (I'm abbreviating that as M/M from now on). PM me if you don't want to put it in thread. @Sandroba: Last time you were town in a PM game you broke the hell out of it; if I don't see similar efforts then it's tunnel city. If those players make it apparent they are town, then there's no problem in leaving them be in the minority. If they don't, then well they should just keep their mouth shuts, suck it up and be in the majority. If they are town it's their own fault for appearing scummy, and if they are scum it will prevent them from creating much chaos and maybe we'll even lynch them on Round B The point of the plan is that they should comply, sacrifice their vote and maybe their opportunity to be in the minority for the greater good of town. I mean, that's the whole premise of "mass plans". Also, remember the actual manga. If everybody works together with trust and shit, then everybody wins very easily. If everybody starts creating chaos, voting randomly, etc, then it makes it harder for town to win. Speaking of which If someone PMs an answer, can they change it afterwards? About people voting random: On April 30 2012 15:19 EchelonTee wrote: Honestly, I just want to randomly put my vote down and focus on scum hunting because whether I'm in the majority or minority, I don't plan on being mislynched. However, since it's starting to seem like scum may try to abuse the system, I'll follow any plan that has decent logic behind it. Meapak, do you not care about any of the plans that have been put forth so far? On April 30 2012 13:43 VisceraEyes wrote: Not I. :d Well then, let's get started. As always, I cynically feel like any plan we hope to enact is doomed to fail so let's just vote how we want to vote for round A. We have a number advantage over scum, so voting randomly (according to how we feel) will put town at the advantage imo. I haven't decided how to use my votes for Phase B yet. I'm still pondering the matter. So if you guys put down your vote randomly just to scumhunt, what happens if the players you figured out were scum end up in the minority? Who will you lynch instead? Will you use Round B for something productive at all? | ||
gonzaw
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For instance, if we unanimously decide that Player X should be lynched (and he's eligible to be lynched of course), then we can do this: Player 1-Gives player nº2 5 votes Player 2-Gives player n3 5 votes ... Player X-does whatever he wants Player X+1-Gives player nºx+2 5 votes .. Last player- Gives player nº1 5 votes Players not in Round B vote whoever they want but not X. That way, the only player lynched will be player X and all the rest will be saved. However this depends on people unanimously deciding to lynch player X and following the plan, which I doubt will happen. We can come up with other things when the time comes, since it also depends on how many people are in Round B. Speaking of which syllo, what do you think about the plans regarding Round A being discussed at the moment? | ||
gonzaw
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Just skimmed through the thread, and Palmar's plan seems to catch the gist of the plan I mentioned before. Have scummy people in the majority, and most townie ones in the minority. This seems to fulfill that, and it requires cooperation from people, so it's fine for now and we can focus on scumhunting. I don't really like that the power is on Palmar alone, that introduces quite variance. I doubt he's scum, since I've read games where he was scum and he just spams and trolls on D1. However, even if he's town, he could be easily manipulated by scum, either making him give scum information, or having Palmar make bad calls and reads because of them. That's why I don't like "1-man" plans. I don't know who said it before, but having a small "counsil" of players determining who is in the minority and who isn't is even better, since there will be more players to bounce reads on, and it will be hard for scum to manipulate them, even if one of them is scum. However, I have a better alternative (although I don't think it can be implemented this Round A): Have people Vote in the thread who they want to be in the minority Seems easy enough, people put "##Pardon: Player X" in the thread. We set a deadline (maybe 4-6 hours before Round A ends), and then all votes are taken into account. The players that received more Pardons will be put into the minority (following the same system from Palmar) This takes away the power from Palmar/syllo themselves to determine who is in the minority (which is what many people had problems with), but the core of the system (having townies in the minority, having scummy people in majority) remains the same. Anyways, I'm gonna eat something and read the thread again. | ||
gonzaw
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On May 01 2012 06:09 wherebugsgo wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 06:02 gonzaw wrote: Okay I'm back. Just skimmed through the thread, and Palmar's plan seems to catch the gist of the plan I mentioned before. Have scummy people in the majority, and most townie ones in the minority. This seems to fulfill that, and it requires cooperation from people, so it's fine for now and we can focus on scumhunting. I don't really like that the power is on Palmar alone, that introduces quite variance. I doubt he's scum, since I've read games where he was scum and he just spams and trolls on D1. However, even if he's town, he could be easily manipulated by scum, either making him give scum information, or having Palmar make bad calls and reads because of them. That's why I don't like "1-man" plans. I don't know who said it before, but having a small "counsil" of players determining who is in the minority and who isn't is even better, since there will be more players to bounce reads on, and it will be hard for scum to manipulate them, even if one of them is scum. However, I have a better alternative (although I don't think it can be implemented this Round A): Have people Vote in the thread who they want to be in the minority Seems easy enough, people put "##Pardon: Player X" in the thread. We set a deadline (maybe 4-6 hours before Round A ends), and then all votes are taken into account. The players that received more Pardons will be put into the minority (following the same system from Palmar) This takes away the power from Palmar/syllo themselves to determine who is in the minority (which is what many people had problems with), but the core of the system (having townies in the minority, having scummy people in majority) remains the same. Anyways, I'm gonna eat something and read the thread again. Man if you're town please don't play like you did in LI, because that'll mean I'll be subconsciously ignoring all your posts. I can't believe you seriously think that we should vote for a pardon; it's such a colossal waste of time and it's incredibly easy to manipulate for scum. You can do it the other way round: Have each player vote for 3-5 players that they think should be in the majority. Once the virtual deadline hits, all votes are counted, and those that received LESS votes are put in the minority. That way scum won't actively be able to determine who gets in it or not. | ||
gonzaw
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Also: Can we get a filter list? It's almost impossible to search the filter of some players | ||
gonzaw
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I mostly comes down to cooperation. Townies should cooperate, agree with the plan and sacrifice their vote and opportunity to be in the minority for the greater good. Just like in the manga people need to sacrifice their opportunity to earn profits to work together and save everybody. | ||
gonzaw
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How you should vote will be determined after the "virtual deadline" is set, I'll explain more thoroughly in that post I'm making | ||
gonzaw
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On May 01 2012 06:15 Ace wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 06:12 gonzaw wrote: On May 01 2012 06:09 wherebugsgo wrote: On May 01 2012 06:02 gonzaw wrote: Okay I'm back. Just skimmed through the thread, and Palmar's plan seems to catch the gist of the plan I mentioned before. Have scummy people in the majority, and most townie ones in the minority. This seems to fulfill that, and it requires cooperation from people, so it's fine for now and we can focus on scumhunting. I don't really like that the power is on Palmar alone, that introduces quite variance. I doubt he's scum, since I've read games where he was scum and he just spams and trolls on D1. However, even if he's town, he could be easily manipulated by scum, either making him give scum information, or having Palmar make bad calls and reads because of them. That's why I don't like "1-man" plans. I don't know who said it before, but having a small "counsil" of players determining who is in the minority and who isn't is even better, since there will be more players to bounce reads on, and it will be hard for scum to manipulate them, even if one of them is scum. However, I have a better alternative (although I don't think it can be implemented this Round A): Have people Vote in the thread who they want to be in the minority Seems easy enough, people put "##Pardon: Player X" in the thread. We set a deadline (maybe 4-6 hours before Round A ends), and then all votes are taken into account. The players that received more Pardons will be put into the minority (following the same system from Palmar) This takes away the power from Palmar/syllo themselves to determine who is in the minority (which is what many people had problems with), but the core of the system (having townies in the minority, having scummy people in majority) remains the same. Anyways, I'm gonna eat something and read the thread again. Man if you're town please don't play like you did in LI, because that'll mean I'll be subconsciously ignoring all your posts. I can't believe you seriously think that we should vote for a pardon; it's such a colossal waste of time and it's incredibly easy to manipulate for scum. You can do it the other way round: Have each player vote for 3-5 players that they think should be in the majority. Once the virtual deadline hits, all votes are counted, and those that received LESS votes are put in the minority. That way scum won't actively be able to determine who gets in it or not. Lettuce ask a very zimple question hear: How do you put people in the minority? If enough people agree with a plan then those players will follow it and vote YES or NO depending on what the plan says. If a majority of players follow the plan, it means town as a whole (in a sense) follows the plan, so any townie that doesn't follow it is going against town's wishes, and he should know that. Therefore, that townie will have to comply with town regarding this plan and vote accordingly. If that happens, then every townie will follow the plan (some because of own choice, some because they do it for the greater good), and thus scum will be forced to do it as well. Anybody that doesn't do so is put under heavy scrutiny. In that way, then yes you can get people into the minority. It's just like another lynch, if you are town and end up lynched it's most likely your fault for being scummy. If you are town and end up in the majority this game, it's most likely your fault for being scummy too, so you should shut your mouth and comply with town and get into Round B. Here is what I think: Everybody in the thread makes 3 up to 5 votes on players they think is scum and should be in the majority, just like always: ##Vote: Player X ##Vote: Player Y, etc We will also set a "virtual deadline". It is a deadline where all these "pseudo-votes" will stop being taken into account, and they will be counted. This can be 6 hours before the deadline, or maybe less or more. It should be at some time that it gives people enough time to place their votes (to all timezones and shit). When the "virtual deadline" hits, then we choose the amount of players we want in the minority (4, 5, maybe even 8) depending on how many scum there are, or other plans of ours (or we can set it at a certain number since the beginning), and the players that received the least amount of votes will be put in the minority. How? Read that thing I said above. They cooperate and we force the minority that doesn't agree with it to do so (as in, even if they don't agree they should comply and do it for the sake of town). Then, the most scummy people will be in the majority, the most townie people will be in the minority, and it won't depend on the reads and power of 1 or 2 players alone, but it depends on town collectively. Again, this only works if everybody cooperates and agrees with it, but just like the manga, that's the point of the Liar Game. Just like the manga, you have to trust us that it will work. About VE vs wherebugsgo: After LIII I'm mostly ignoring VE when he "finds scumslips" and "instantly figures someone is scum in the first 10 minutes". VE seems to act like his townie self, or at least like in LIII and not like in LI, so I think his "find" is legit. However it seems stupid as fuck, wbg doesn't openly discuss with VE in PMs and he instantly FoSes him because of that. I don't think wbg is town for now, and I don't see him contributing as I'd hope for, but if you want to convince me he's scum try harder and actually make a case against him, instead of cloggin up the thread with this "PM" thing you found. Speaking of which, I am suspicious of wbg, because he doesn't seem to contribute too much. He just complains to people and nothing else, doesn't even try to actively scumhunt. At Palmar: Please check that plan I posted, and comment on it. I think it's better than what you are doing, and I don't want you to have all the power, at least not in subsequent days (Day 1 is fine though) Suspicions: Cephiro: Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87 I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you. chaoser: Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=41788 I agree with Foolishness with some points, but I'm mostly suspicious of him because of some of the same things Cephiro did: He spends 80% of his effort discrediting other people's plans, he's very aggressive about it, and doesn't seem to put effort in anything else whatsoever. When called out he gets VERY defensive, and even more aggressive against people. Also there's this: On May 01 2012 04:18 chaoser wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 04:04 syllogism wrote: On May 01 2012 03:56 chaoser wrote: If i had to lynch someone today, it'd be palmar Ah yes, the good old "lets attract as much attention as possible and establish an obvious link between each other" strategy in a two scum team game. Do you genuinely believe this? Before the game started, I was thinking that if I was mafia I would come out of the gate very strong, use the WIFOM of "he's so out there, there's no way he's mafia" card and then make it to day 3 or 4 by way of offering an audacious plan. There's no way such a person wouldn't attract a medic or something, as can be seen in A LOT of TL games (specifically in space station with sandro's strong coming out). Even if I didn't attract a medic, the other mafia family probably won't shoot me because they'd fear a medic protect anyway. It was more of a solo plan that I was thinking about but having another person along would make it even more "out there". Mafia win the game by outnumbering townie, not by having as many people stay alive till the end. If mafia can waste enough time to get to LYLO, it doesn't matter what the town does since it's very rare for town to play perfectly once LYLO is reached, especially if mafia has been defending townies as well as teammates. So much WIFOM at LYLO means mafia will probably win. That's how I always play as mafia; go look at that game where Ver was badass professor. Had mafia pushed that last lynch on a townie instead of on me, town would have been at LYLO and would have been fucked. Barundar and GM had believed and supported me the whole way, they were definitely going to be mislynched sooner or later. Even if most of my team was lynched after reaching LYLO, mafia would have probably won. That's why as soon as palmar busted out with his plan, I was very very suspicious because it was going down exactly how I thought a mafia would play it. Having one person in power in this game is actually really bad Seems quite a farfetched reason to justify his FoS on Palmar. It also seems odd that he's using it as a reason for him being town. It's like if I said "Before the game started, I knew that if I rolled scum I would PM everybody, create a fake town circle and give everybody miss-information, I would get mass-claims from everybody, I would control the thread atmosphere and have nobody suspect me at all and coast to victory flawlessly. Obviously that isn't happening therefore I'm town". He's overstating his scum play so he can convince people he's town, and I doubt a townie would do that (well, a townie other than wbg/Ace/those guys). Those are the guys I'd want to lynch for now, hopefully they get in the majority. I will check other players too...at least when i get the filter list >_> | ||
gonzaw
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For now I believe we should follow Palmar's plan, because we don't have time to do anything else. That means, those "Pardoned" vote NO, and the rest vote YES, at least just for today. We can talk more about what plan to implement on Night 1 and Day 2 Round A. So I'll vote NO | ||
gonzaw
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On May 01 2012 08:16 Ace wrote: K so the plan just needs a majority of Town to give up their individual brilliance, sheep a Yes/No vote and form a new pool of suspects: Except the method of creating this pool should be determined by 1 player. Sounds awesome. Where do I sign up? No, I said that the method for creating this pool should be done by the whole town with the Voting system I specified. Can you at least read my posts? Also, I want you guys opinion on chaoser and Cephiro, we need to find scum too, not just talk about plans. | ||
gonzaw
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On May 01 2012 08:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm voting no to get into the minority. FYI. See how fucking stupid this plan is? ^^ *sigh* You are becoming Blazinghand v2 right now. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:19 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 08:10 gonzaw wrote:Cephiro: Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=183812 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#84 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=5#87 I found this odd, because you started very aggresively. There were some good plans (mine) floating around, and you behemently opposed them. The point is that you didn't come up with any of your own or try to generate any other discussion. You inserted doubt into plans and just bickered about them, you didn't come up with content of your own. Well, maybe honestly you thought those plans were bad, so that in itself wouldn't bother me. However, you post this: I'm not expecting to see gamebreaking strategies (especially ensuring as making them work flawlessly is quite hard), so please concentrate on finding the scum instead of trying to come up with some epic plan. And don't get greedy. If we find someone that we are sure to be scum, then do everything possible to get that person killed or lynched. If we try to get greedy and be smartasses and try to lynch three scum at once, it'll most likely bite ourselves in the ass. You are giving the usual "People stop discussing policy lynches/plans/shit and start finding scum!", yet I don't see you following your own advice. When someone asked you for your reads, you said "At the moment I am afraid to tell you I have no reason to share my reads with you.". What? You said we should try and find scum, but you don't want to contribute your reads? You started very aggressive and "keen" to find scum, but you were inactive for some time later and when you came back you didn't put any effort into doing so. I know how you can play as town Cephiro, I observed Death Factory and you were contributing and making plans like crazy. Being this aggresive and indifferent to plans is unlike you. I honestly think all the plan discussion in D1 has been stupid. I do not see people agreeing in as quickly as 24-48 hours, and it serves as a great cloak for scum, as it derails the conversation to people jabbing at each other about an optimal way of trying to game the game with voting strategies, instead of hunting the scum. So why not create discussion about something else? Why not contribute in other manners? Why not doing anything productive other than bickering against every single plan being discussed and then disappearing from the face of the earth? Also like I said, I don't see you being this "opposed" to plans. I read Death Factory and you were making plans all over the place. I don't believe you when you say "I honestly think all D1 plan discussions are stupid". Lets say someone finally came up with a plan that everyone magically agreed on. Now, what will you do with it if you've found no scum? How about BOTH making a plan and finding scum? I'm trying to find scum and I think I found 2, so how can you tell me I'm doing otherwise? You can't seriously oppose plans because you think nobody will find scum. The plans come 2nd in finding scum, they've always been, so you can't seriously use that to justify your hatred against plans. Just because I did not publicly share my reads with syllo does mean I haven't done it with anyone else. PM Land is a wonderful place to be in. If I don't trust syllo, why should I give him my reads? And making up false reads in the threads is just something that someone would point out as an contradiction by PMs later, and then bad townies would be jumping all over the fact and be distracted from the actual work that needs to be done. As I've said a trillion times before, do not try to metagame me. If you try, you've already lost. You should give reads in the thread. You may not trust syllo, but surely you trust all townies right? If you post your reads in the thread you are 100% guaranteed THAT ALL TOWNIES WILL READ THEM. Even so, if you are doing this all in PM land, why did you say before that you will only use PMs to answer questions and stuff? Why would you make up "false reads" in the thread? Wut? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:28 wherebugsgo wrote: The end result is almost exactly the same as just ignoring round A. If you will "save those specific townies" regardless of what side they appear on, then there's no reason at all to make an elaborate plan to try to put them in the minority in the first place. The point of my plan is to get scummy people into the majority rather than townie people into the minority (although that helps). You do that by having people vote who are their strongest scum reads, and let those be in the majority. What's wrong with that? @Radfield: What do you think about the plan I mentioned? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:39 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote: So why not create discussion about something else? Why not contribute in other manners? Why not doing anything productive other than bickering against every single plan being discussed and then disappearing from the face of the earth? Also like I said, I don't see you being this "opposed" to plans. I read Death Factory and you were making plans all over the place. I don't believe you when you say "I honestly think all D1 plan discussions are stupid". Just because I am not doing something productive in your opinion, _in the thread_, does not mean I wouldn't actually be doing productive stuff. Everything I do has a reason. As for "disappearing from the face of earth", as much as I like mafia games, even I have a life to live. I am not opposed to plans if they are good. So far I don't like what I see, and I have no game-breaking plan to offer either. Just because I was doing some "super-mega-epic-plan" in an earlier game does not mean I would do it in this game. Just stop trying to metagame, you are shooting yourself in the head. Whatever I have done in any games before does in no way relate to what I do now. I do not say that "All D1 plan discussions are stupid", but that statement is true to my opinion when we are talking about the D1 of this game in this thread. Yeah, I think you are not doing anything productive in the thread, why wouldn't you? I don't know what "reasons" you are talking about, how am I supposed to believe you? What "reasons" are they? If you want me to stop "wasting my time" (thing from PM), then why don't you post in the thread something productive? You are just telling me "I'm doing an awesome pro-town job in PM land, you just have to believe me. Oh I won't do shit in the thread, but believe me I'm dominating the game in PM-Land *wink* *wink*" How the fuck am I supposed to believe you? Or even if that was true (that you are PMing with people and shit), I still won't know what you are doing, so I still won't know if what you are doing is pushing a scum agenda or not. I have no hatred against plans, you are just overthinking and confirmation biasing your own thoughts. You think you found 2 scum, well good for you. Now come up with enough evidence so that the town believes you, and then we'll see if we can get them killed? I made a post pointing out the evidence I found. The only way to get scum killed is for them to be in the majority, and have nobody else vote for them. I want people to post their opinions on what I posted, and let them decide if they will vote for you/chaoser or not. If they don't, then yes I'm "trying to get them killed". I did not say I will use PMs to only answer questions, you've misunderstood once again. Also, I just explained the thing about false reads. Read it again. Basically: If I have information that I do not scum want to know, why on earth should I make it public for them? I'll gladly share my reads which do not involve information scum can benefit about in such a manner, but certain things are best kept secret, or shared with only a few chosen ones. So let me get this straight: The only way to lynch scum, is to have other townies not vote for them in Round B The only way other townies won't vote for them in Round B is if they know they are scum The only way they will know they are scum is if you post your scumread in the thread and post a convincing case against them Reciprocally, if you don't post your scumreads in the thread you won't be able to get scum lynched. So please, post your scumreads, thoughts about chaoser and other players. In response to your PM: Point is, you're best off not trying to continue pressuring me based on your current suspicions, as they've lead you to false conclusions. I don't mind defending myself at all, especially if you feel like I do something that you find scummy. But for now, you'd be best off dropping it, concentrating on others, and observing my play and see if you can find flaws later on. Even if I would be mafia, what you have wouldn't be enough to convince people. And trust me, some things are best left out of the thread. I also have not contradicted myself. Why am I best off "dropping it"? Why do you want me to "concentrate on others"? If I think you are scum, why would I concentrate on somebody else? By the same reasoning, I concentrate on someone else, and that player will tell me to "concentrate on someone else" as well. Dude, wtf is that all about? If there is some "hidden" info you have that will destroy the world if revealed, then I don't care don't post it. But contribute, post reads, thoughts, care about the game in the thread if you are town; if not you'll only make me tunnel you more. To Ace: On May 01 2012 08:41 Ace wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 08:39 Cephiro wrote: You think you found 2 scum, well good for you. Now come up with enough evidence so that the town believes you, and then we'll see if we can get them killed? You gonna let him just talk to you like that? If it was me there is no way that would happen. Stand up for yourself. ??? Who are you talking to? Cephiro or me? Also Ace, you aren't doing anything productive at all either, so please take the same advice I gave to Cephiro and start contributing. About PMs: I'd advise you guys to post everything you can in the thread, if not this will be a fucking boring game where 70% of townies won't do shit at all, just like Space Station Mafia. Just use PMs if there are special private things to discuss, like plans, gambits, claims, special information, etc. *sigh* I remember why I hate PM games all of a sudden. This shit is so exhausting, I barely had free time since I woke up to do anything else.. I'll take a small break for now | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 09:15 Cephiro wrote: Are you scum trying to make me look bad or are you just that thickheaded? If you want me to be more productive in-thread, then how about you stop making these horrible cases I have to keep responding to. I'll post something productive when I think it is needed. I'm not gonna start posting fluff-productive crap just for the sake of making you smile. So where have I claimed I am dominating the game in PM-Land? You keep exaggerating my claims all the time on purpose, either you are unconciously using confirmation bias to convince yourself you are right, or then you are just scum doing it on purpose. If you need to know what I'm doing in PM-Land, then ASK instead of crying aloud in the thread. Or maybe you could try to earn my trust and I could reply you like anyone else I trust. Doesn't sound that hard no? For all you know I am not necessarily even pushing an agenda, but only sharing opinions and reads, yet you make it look like I am pushing for some epic plan via PMs? The "dominating PM-land" and the "hidden shit that will end the world" are obviously hyperboles. The thing is that you seem to think that you can abstain from posting in the thread just because PMs exist, and that makes it impossible to do anything for people not in the PM-loop (whether it exists or it doesn't exist and you are bluffing). I made the "horrible case" because you weren't contributing, you refused to give out scumreads when asked, and you were very aggressive against all plans being mentioned (and of course, because you weren't "productive"). Okay then: what are you doing in PM land? Are you pressuring people? Asking for reads, or giving them yourselves? Why don't you want to post anything in the thread? Why won't you post reads in the thread? Why won't you pressure people in the thread? Why do you want to be "excused" and want me to "concentrate on someone else" and let you live til lategame just so I can "analyse your play later"? That's good. Now just think a bit more before you post, at the current state your cases are in my opinion easily scrubbed off, which is something you don't want to happen, whether you are town or a scum making a fake case on a townie. So tell me how are you going to ensure you get the scum in the majority? And then ensure no-one votes them? How is it scrubbed off? Please: if someone thinks my case against Cephiro is total crap, please state so and state why I make a case against you and you instantly discredit me, turn aggrressive against me and basically misdirect everything I'm saying. Why don' t you thoroughly explain why my case is horrible and can be scrubbed off? Please I'm waiting. Also wtf? (at the bolded bit) What does that have anything to do with what we are discussing? Bolded is false, although it is one of the best methods for doing so. I will share my reads when I feel it contributes to the thread. At the moment I do not possess a completely pre-made case on anyone, and I'm not currently making one either. If you want to hear very vague opinions about why I think someone is leaning a certain way, sure. Or if you want me to make some super-complex-game-saving theory which busts all 6 scum to you right now, then you're best off looking elsewhere. No-one does such with certainty at this stage of the game. So you don't have any "pre-made" cases on anyone, you are not making cases on anyone and you don't feel you have any reads worth contributing... ...then what are you waiting for? Are you really justifying your play by saying "yep, I don't have anything to contribute so I'm not doing anything". That's scummy as shit. And take the bolded bit, again totally misdirection and strawman. I never asked you to make a super complex plan to kill all 6 scum instantly, I (or rather other people) asked for your reads and thoughts on what's happening, and asked you to contribute more (or rather accused you of not doing that). You are going to tell me that "no-on does such at this state of the game"? Tunneling in any case is retarded and just makes you look bad. Concentrated pressure while still being open for other options however is not. You can keep tunnelling me on all you want, but all you are doing is waste time of at least one townie effectively. I like how you keep up the pressure, but even if I was scum your current case is not enough, or then I've overestimated the level of our co-players. You're best of dropping it because you are currently hardcore tunneling an useful townie. Why do you think I am open and even giving you tips of making a better case on me later if I was mafia? Why do you bring up some "hidden" info shit up again? Especially about anything that would destroy the world? Are you trying to make your post look more dramatic on purpose? Now, are you finally done and ready to move to something useful, or are you going to keep tunneling? I may have chosen the word "tunneling" bad, but the point still stands. You want me to "concentrate" on someone else and "drop" this case against you...just because? You say you are an "useful townie" and use that as evidence for why my case is horrible and I should turn my attention off you. Can't you see how stupid that is? At chaoser, wherebugsgo and shit: Really? You won't even post original content? Here: + Show Spoiler + On April 30 2012 18:14 gonzaw wrote: @syllogism: Maybe we can have a plan for using the Round B votes as well. For instance, if we unanimously decide that Player X should be lynched (and he's eligible to be lynched of course), then we can do this: Player 1-Gives player nº2 5 votes Player 2-Gives player n3 5 votes ... Player X-does whatever he wants Player X+1-Gives player nºx+2 5 votes .. Last player- Gives player nº1 5 votes Players not in Round B vote whoever they want but not X. That way, the only player lynched will be player X and all the rest will be saved. However this depends on people unanimously deciding to lynch player X and following the plan, which I doubt will happen. We can come up with other things when the time comes, since it also depends on how many people are in Round B. Speaking of which syllo, what do you think about the plans regarding Round A being discussed at the moment? chaoser, will you respond to the cases made against you? Will you contribute anything at all other than bickering about the plans? Really, chaoser, Ace, wherebugsgo, Cephiro, VisceraEyes, etc are only just bickering and bickering about the plans, and ignoring everything else said to them or happening in the thread. Surely all of you can't be mafia at the same time right? That would be too easy. So please start contributing and trying to hunt scum instead of just repeating the same "oh oh but you can't know who is in the majority! lol hoho" crap over and over again. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I know that suggested plan, but the point is that nobody will unanimously determine 1 player to be lynched. So if someone thinks that player is town, they will just give him 5 votes to try to save him. If there is a very obvious scum then yes it works, but I think we can come up with something better, like some in-game voting system that's used to determine who votes who and stuff. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 09:53 chaoser wrote: one, you posted that in response to syllo, who wanted palmar to be king. Unless it's just one person in the minority, the plan will fall apart. The more people in the minority group, the more likely the votes will be fucked up because there's more people who aren't in the cycle and that means more chances for votes to not go correctly and we wil lbe unable to account for their votes and figure out a discrepancy if it comes up. not to mention you don't even bring up the idea that people should only give 4 votes to people instead of all 5 that wbg brought up to me. How is that stealing? You posted the exact same one posted before, and it was like 80% of your post. Also I said I didn't think that idea was good the moment I posted it, so whether it gives 4 or 5 votes is irrelevant. And what does that have to do with syllo? Palmar made that plan of his way after I mentioned that to syllo. Now chaoser, can you respond to my case and Foolishness case against you? Do you have any reasoning behind any scumreads of yours other than "Palmar is scum"? On May 01 2012 09:55 wherebugsgo wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 09:52 gonzaw wrote: To be honest...I just copypasted it from the manga so it's not like I "figured out" anything >_> I know that suggested plan, but the point is that nobody will unanimously determine 1 player to be lynched. So if someone thinks that player is town, they will just give him 5 votes to try to save him. If there is a very obvious scum then yes it works, but I think we can come up with something better, like some in-game voting system that's used to determine who votes who and stuff. so in other words, you're apparently pissed that certain people are "bickering," you are apparently concerned that chaoser is not putting forth "original" ideas, and that we have to come up with something better, yet you are content with adding more bullshit to the thread, like this and your previous post? This is what I meant by "I hope you don't play the game the same way you did LI or I'll end up subconsciously ignoring you." What bullshit are you talking about? Yes, you guys are only talking about how you hate the plans being mentioned, and that's it. Are you going to refute that? For instance wbg, what do you think about my case on chaoser and Cephiro? Do you have any scumreads? If so, why do you think so? About Cephiro: Omg this is the Toad incident all over again. Okay, I won't argue more with you and this is the only thing I'll say: Cephiro is not posting any reads, contributing at all, and is only trying to argue the hell out of me right now and clog up the thread instead of addressing the issues I mentioned So town, read this, read Cephiro's posts, and tell me what you think; I won't clog the thread up any more with this stupid back and forth Cephiro is making | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
About your question: "Why are you not pressuring others that are guilty of the same things?" What is that supposed to mean? I think chaoser is scum and I pressured him. I am suspicious of wbg and I pressured him. I don't really think Ace is that suspicious (because he played similarly in Space Station Mafia), but he doing jack shit at all is still worrying. Now I ask you this question: "Why do you want me to pressure other players and not you?" About the PM: So which of the two Mafia do you belong to, the Red Hat Rat Pack or the other one? I just can't believe that you would play that horribly as town, which is why I'm starting to become quite sure that you're scum trying to set me up. So now you OMGUS? *sigh* Why wouldn't you post it in the thread if you thought I'm scum? I said it before, this is just like that Toad incident. I called him out of not contributing and not caring about the game and he spent like 5 days tunneling me and arguing with me and yet not addressing what I was accusing him from, and ended up FoSing me saying things like "you will die tomorrow" without any reasoning whatsoever I think you are doing the same thing. @BC: Please read the thread and post your thoughts on my plan, and on the cases being made on chaoser and Cephiro | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:45 Cephiro wrote: I have answered this question several times. I will post my scumreads in thread once I have more evidence to back it. Unlike you, I don't feel like going around blaming everyone for whatever my little mind could come up with. I have already had multiple discussions about my reads with people via PM. I consider PMs a very good way of sharing opinions about your reads before working on a proper case on them. The people that have asked me for my reads in PM have mostly received them, instead of crying out loud here in the thread asking for scumreads without evidence. Do you really want me to post scumreads without backing them up that bad? I've already said this, but I don't want you to make gigantic cases that catch all 6 scum, I want your thoughts and reads. Why? I don't want to see if you will catch some hidden scum I never saw, I want to see your thought process and held you accountable for your actions in the game. I.E I want you to give us information so we can figure out your alignment (basically why everybody in the game even posts at all in the thread). So every little "non proper case" works. If you think X is a little bit scummy, but you don't know why then post "I think X is a little bit scummy, but I don't really know why". If you think Y is very scummy but you want to make a good case later, then post "I think Y is very scummy but I want to make a good case later". See how it works? It's called transparency, and you have none of it at the moment. Is that what you call "pressuring wbg"? Also, can you please stop trying to be super-clever and metagaming, all you do is bring up stuff that people did in PREVIOUS GAMES. Read THIS GAME instead. Also, nice wishy-washy contradiction. "I don't think Ace is suspicious because of his meta, but it is still worrying." <-- So are you concerned of him or not? Yes it's called pressure, what do you want me to do? Votes don't exist in this game I can't vote for anybody, just point out suspicious behaviour and call it out. Meta is a very effective tool. Most people use it very badly and just say things like "Oh, he was active in that game when he was town, he's inactive right now so he's scum". You have to analyze behaviour and motivation when you use meta. Here is your filter from DF2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324050&user=183812 You can instantly find differences. For instance, you are calm and analytical. In this game you are overcome by "emotion", you are very aggressive and you don't have a focus on things, you just cling on to something (arguing with me for instance) and stay with it for the rest of the game. When people accuse you (syllogism for instance) and start shitting on you you keep your cool. Now someone FoSes you for the first time and you go on a rampage. In that game you obviously care about the game. You post your thoughts every once in a while to keep up with discussion, and you do it in a straight manner without misdirecting or anything. Here you don't care about discussion either. You started shitting on people for pointing out plans. Then when people want your reads you tell them you won't post shit. Then when someone takes notice of this and FoSes you you flip your shit and tunnel the hell out of him, without even caring about other things from the game. For instance, you don't care about the most important part: finding scum. + Show Spoiler [To save some space] + So if your play makes me suspicious it's omgus? You do realize that making a case on someone to distract others is something scum could very well do, which is why your point of OMGUS is just a clever way to sidestep accusations if you were scum. Why I'm not posting here if I think you are scum? Because your filter is full of crap. There's nothing to separate you from a horrible townie or an pain-in-the-ass-annoying scum to me so far. Once I've got enough proof in my opinion to validate you as either, I'll post. As I've said multiple times before, I don't feel the need to go all "OMG HE MADE A TYPO, SCUMSLIP" on everyone about every smallest thing. I find one proper case much better than three horrible ones. I find it funny how you are trying to turn it the other way around though, making a comparison to Toad tunneling you, trying to make it look like I am the one that tunnels you, when I've yet to go as far to say I am suspicious of you for constantly pushing a case that poor? Yes Toad tunneled me. Did I tunnel Toad? Yes, perhaps (although it was on scum so I guess it's justified). Is it almost the same situation right now? Yes. For instance, Toad did the exact same thing you are doing right now: Cephiro this game: I find it funny how you are trying to turn it the other way around though, making a comparison to Toad tunneling you, trying to make it look like I am the one that tunnels you, when I've yet to go as far to say I am suspicious of you for constantly pushing a case that poor? Toad on LI: On April 11 2012 02:19 Toadesstern wrote: just shut up gonzaw, please. Your bringing things that are clear town treats to the discussion EVERY TIME and end up saying that's a mafia treat which is just bullshit. I am not going to talk about new reads unless I'm 100% certain about those reads because it's night. Therefore yes I am not talking about new reads, thanks for figureing out I'm a townie and telling everyone. Also I'm not tunneling you. I'm saying you're an idiot and that people must not listen to a word you say regarding me BECAUSE YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SHOOT ME, although everyone keeps telling you you're wrong. Tunneling would be telling everyone to kill you because I think you are mafia and honestly I really doubt you're that pushy and wrong at the same time when everyone in here tells you you're wrong. I thought being a little tunnelish is a town treat for you but you're so overdoing it. I'd really like people to check gonzaw if there's a DT wandering around not knowing who to check for :p Also: I've yet to go as far to say I am suspicious of you for constantly pushing a case that poor? Then what about this?: So which of the two Mafia do you belong to, the Red Hat Rat Pack or the other one? I just can't believe that you would play that horribly as town, which is why I'm starting to become quite sure that you're scum trying to set me up. None of your concern. I have sent in my answer already. Yes it's of my concern, and of the concern of all town. Why? Because I want you to be in the majority. If you are really town, then you wouldn't mind being in the majority, right? You have all Round B to convince us you are town, so you've got nothing to hide, right? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I will held you accountable for your behaviour in the thread If you think you can go all dandy in PM-land and do shit at all in the thread you are mistaken. PMs weren't added to take all the game there. So still contribute in the thread, post reads, post your thoughts about discussions, etc, and it will be fine. I will held you accountable as if PMs don't even exist, so don't get all contempt with doing shit in the thread. Again, let's try to minimize the negative impact PMs have in games. On May 01 2012 11:14 Ace wrote: If you are Town of course you mind being in the majority lmao. Who the hell wants to be a possible lynch candidate? If you are town, then you can prove you are town to people, so you don't really have to worry. It's like telling people "Who the hell wants to be a possible lynch candidate?" in any normal game in existence even when they don't have a single vote on them. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Who do you think is scum and why? The fact that you are still missing the point baffles me. FYI: I voted in such manner that I should be in the majority, I have no fear of being in majority. You seem to like the idea of hiding behind Palmar's forgiveness though What are you implying? I don't care about being in the majority either. Even more, I think it will be most likely that there will be more NOs than YES' this round. I know this, yet I still voted NO to follow the plan. On May 01 2012 11:18 Ace wrote: Orrrrr maybe if you are Town, instead of worrying about proving you are Town you avoid the lynch wagon anyway? Orrr maybe you can stop discussing about this useless shit and give us your reads? Where the hell are Palmar and syllo? And Foolishness for that matter | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 01 2012 11:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 11:09 gonzaw wrote: Yes it's called pressure, what do you want me to do? Votes don't exist in this game I can't vote for anybody, just point out suspicious behaviour and call it out. I stopped reading at this bullshit here. I meant Round A of course On May 01 2012 11:25 Ace wrote: You know what this is so laughable lets keep it simple: If all the Townies do as you say and jump into the MAJORITY who does that leave to go into the Minority? Scum. Which means the only pool that people can be lynched from would be full of Town players. Lol wow this is easy. I'll try to keep my cool in here, but it's getting very hard to. No, all townies won't jump into the majority, because hopefully all townies will follow the plan. This means that some townies will be in the minority, and hopefully most scum are in the majority. Now, if you are a regular townie, you don't know if you will be in the majority or minority. Since you have to follow the plan for the sake of town, then it shouldn't matter to you if you are in the majority or minority, since it will ultimately help town (by you complying with the plan). If you are a townie, and did end up in the majority, then you prove to others you are town and let scum die instead. So if the plan is followed perfectly, and you do your part in establishing your innocence in Round B, everything is all good and dandy and only scum die. In more general terms, if you are town, and you being in the majority is more helpful to town, then you shouldn't have any worries about being in the majority yourself. That is what I explained to Cephiro. Now Ace, can you please stop bullshitting, answer my question and post your reads? | ||
gonzaw
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On May 01 2012 11:35 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Dude? Round A is the clearly easier way to make people accountable for their votes and finding any form of pattern. Unless you force a system of mentioned earlier of how people vote (ie forcing only one person to die each cycle to the lynch) then the only accountable voting scheme is round A. One vote gives you results of where people landed via min/maj and one is hidden tallies. You should always pressure people if you can but blatantly lying in posts to do said pressure is retarded. What the? What are you talking about? I meant that I can't "pressure" wbg, or chaoser by "voting" them like you would normally do in a game. As in, players have 0 fear in Round A, they can't get lynched or anything, and without a plan they can randomly be in the majority or minority. And the "vote" you are speaking of is revealed at the end of Round A, so I don't get what you mean. You too BC, you seem active right now, so can you tell us what you think of Cephiro, chaoser, wbg, Ace, etc? Here are my thoughts on those players you were mentioning: About prplz: I don't see anything scummy with him for now. He keeps talking about "not being sure" about things, and discuss too much what happens with the "Palmogisfield-plan". He posts a lot, but doesn't scumhunt with them at all. I'm waiting for his thoughts on these last events. About Katina: I find it weird that she spoke with "reassurance" like you said, but other than that I can't make much out of her. She does seem very confident in her posts though, Can you guys add Meapak's other account in the filters list? Here it is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=263446 To Ceph: On May 01 2012 11:43 Cephiro wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 01 2012 11:09 gonzaw wrote: Meta is a very effective tool. Most people use it very badly and just say things like "Oh, he was active in that game when he was town, he's inactive right now so he's scum". You have to analyze behaviour and motivation when you use meta. Here is your filter from DF2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324050&user=183812 You can instantly find differences. For instance, you are calm and analytical. In this game you are overcome by "emotion", you are very aggressive and you don't have a focus on things, you just cling on to something (arguing with me for instance) and stay with it for the rest of the game. When people accuse you (syllogism for instance) and start shitting on you you keep your cool. Now someone FoSes you for the first time and you go on a rampage. In that game you obviously care about the game. You post your thoughts every once in a while to keep up with discussion, and you do it in a straight manner without misdirecting or anything. Here you don't care about discussion either. You started shitting on people for pointing out plans. Then when people want your reads you tell them you won't post shit. Then when someone takes notice of this and FoSes you you flip your shit and tunnel the hell out of him, without even caring about other things from the game. For instance, you don't care about the most important part: finding scum. "Oh, he was analytical and calm in that game when he was town, he's being more "aggressive" now, so he's scum." Even though both sentences have the same structure, they are not the same. Being "analytical and calm, taking pressure calmly, caring about the game and posting thoughts in the thread constantly and driving discussion" is not the same as just being "inactive". Do you see what you are doing here? You do realize it doesn't even take a skilled person in psychology to fake that, or act in another way on purpose? As for your final question, my final answer: I will give my reads when I have enough content to back it up. If you think I am scummy for not going around pointing fingers when I am unsure myself... well, I'll let everyone make their conclusions of that. As I said before, I find making one proper case more useful rather than make 3 jabs at different people without anything to back it up. That is all. Argh. I already said you don't need to point fingers or make cases. Post your thoughts! Also, you are not Incognito or those guys that lurk all D1/N1 and then spout 10 gigantic cases in 1 post. You take part of discussion and post thoughts, just like in Death Factory, so I don't believe you saying "Oh I don't like posting reads/thoughts in the thread until I have a gigantic awesome case to make". | ||
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Tthat was kind of unexpected, I thought more people would have said NO. | ||
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I'll take a break, eat go to sleep and think about it tomorrow. | ||
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Dude, I don't get wtf you are doing. Like really. People ask you reads and you start bickering about how you don't need to post them and you are "waiting for the right time" or some shit. Then, you accuse Palmar's "allies" (I guess you mean syllo) that they leak info, and when asked to justify yourself, you go on to spout some mystical bullshit about how "telling you the obvious wouldn't be fun" and shit. Really, you seem to act like Chezinu and those other guys that troll the hell out of games. But why the fuck would you troll this game if you were town? You can't say "Oh you can't use meta because good players change their meta". ...if you are town and play good you don't need to change your meta. In fact, being town you NEED to stay to your meta so people (even those "retards that use meta" (hyperbole here) that you talk about) have it easier to figure out you are town. I can't see any reason why you would willingly change your meta, or act different than it if you are town, specially since you played very good in that game as town; and now you are playing like shit, creating chaos with your bickering, not giving any reads or reasoning behind them, and just running around trolling people. I don't find any town motivation for you to act this way, so I still think you are scum. I'd like people to avoid voting you. Also, wtf is with this? To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts. Okay, if you don't like using meta yourself, then fine, don't use meta yourself. But are you really undermining every use of meta? Are you really saying that every player here is a "Mafia God" who can change metas as they will when they are scum and fool everybody 100% of the time or something? Players here can make mistakes or play badly every once in a while. When they do that as scum we do find them using meta. Why are you against this? Are you just going to assume everybody in this game is Akiyama or Yokoya and that you need elaborate plans and shit to catch them? Do you really think that or are you bluffing now to avoid doing anything constructive? If someone thinks Cephiro is town, please state why you think so. About VE: I was leaning town on him at first, because he was very aggressive, and at first he was actively trying to find some scum on wbg (although in a retarded fashion). However, since then he's just trolling, being disruptive, acting defeated even though not many people actually FoSed him or anything. Is this a trend or something? It's been 3 games in a row were people FoS VE and he starts acting like a crybaby and rage quitting. I'm comparing this to LIII, where he had quite a few votes on him when he ragequitted, and quite a lot of opposition. And there he at least contributed with his reads as well, and also claimed. But now he had hardly any pressure at all when he started acting like this, and didn't contribute at all afterwards. I could see his motivation for ragequitting on LIII, but now I don't see any motivation for him to do so, specially when there isn't a normal lynch system in this game. That makes me think he's most likely mafia About sandroba: I have to somewhat agree with Wiggles here. I haven't seen any convincing case that he's scum, just "meta" and "he's inactve/doesn't care". I'm suspicious of him though, because I did read Space Station and he was very active and driving the game in there, while here he just seems to blend in, at least when he was posting. But can someone link to a game where he was scum? Saying "this is sandroba's scum meta" doesn't mean much if you don't link to those games (specially if they happened long ago). About prplz: I agree with meapak, his first posts were fluffy and he just seemed to blend in. I wouldn't mind killing him either, but I want him to first come and post his thoughts on what's happening, post his scumreads and reasoning behind them. To chaoser: Can you please post more reads and stop talking about this Round B plan? I don't know why some people started thinking you are town all of a sudden (or don't want to lynch you), but you still haven't contributed enough. What do you think of Cephiro for instance? What about other players? About my votes: I'll most definitely vote for these: Radfield Mr Wiggles I still don't know who else to vote for, most likely ET or Sheth. About the plan: So what are we going to do in the end? Do the voting circle-jerk and only lynch sandroba? If so, why sandroba and not someone else? Why not lynch Cephiro, or chaoser? I wouldn't mind sandroba dying, but who decided he was the lynch? How will we decide in later days who to lynch? Will it be just as random as wbg saying "we lynch sandroba" and everybody complying with it later? If so, what is the voting system? I've seen everybody just say "I'll vote X,Y and Z and I won't vote sandroba and A and B". This will most likely mean that sandroba will not be the only one killed, or even some very dumb townie or mafia (like VE) can fuck with us and put all his votes on sandroba/chaoser, or the other way round. I haven't voted yet, so I want some confirmation of what we decided to do this Round B. | ||
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On May 02 2012 01:34 VisceraEyes wrote: Let's all kill VE and wonder where it all went wrong! It'll be fun! Your fucking ALL scum. The hosts trolled me and you're all scum. This game is imba. On May 02 2012 01:49 VisceraEyes wrote: It doesn't matter Sheth - I'm going to be voted off today because I was scumhunting and scum are in power. It's standard operating procedure. On May 02 2012 05:28 VisceraEyes wrote: What if I'm town and I spend my votes trying to save Sandro because I think he's town? What then bugs? Okay then VE, why don't you post your reads, make cases or put some reasoning behind them (and if you still think wbg is scum please don't mention those PMs), and discuss current events? Why don't you do something? What do you think of Cephiro? Why do you think chaoser is scum? | ||
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I know most people will likely be voting Radfield, Wiggles, etc more, so they will most likely receive lots of votes, while ET, Meapak, Sheth, etc will receive less. If so, it's possible VE and sandroba pull something up and let those get lynched instead. But anyways, I'll wait to see how all the votes are organized first before voting. | ||
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I'm waiting for him atm. @VE: *sigh* really? Random list of scumreads with 0 reasoning behind them? @Katina: Could you give more thorough reasoning for thinking ET/Radfield are scum? At least taking into account their recent play/lack of play? And again post some reasoning for thinking Palmar is mafia. | ||
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On May 02 2012 08:50 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2012 06:13 gonzaw wrote: To Cephiro: Dude, I don't get wtf you are doing. Like really. People ask you reads and you start bickering about how you don't need to post them and you are "waiting for the right time" or some shit. Then, you accuse Palmar's "allies" (I guess you mean syllo) that they leak info, and when asked to justify yourself, you go on to spout some mystical bullshit about how "telling you the obvious wouldn't be fun" and shit. Really, you seem to act like Chezinu and those other guys that troll the hell out of games. But why the fuck would you troll this game if you were town? You can't say "Oh you can't use meta because good players change their meta". ...if you are town and play good you don't need to change your meta. In fact, being town you NEED to stay to your meta so people (even those "retards that use meta" (hyperbole here) that you talk about) have it easier to figure out you are town. I can't see any reason why you would willingly change your meta, or act different than it if you are town, specially since you played very good in that game as town; and now you are playing like shit, creating chaos with your bickering, not giving any reads or reasoning behind them, and just running around trolling people. I don't find any town motivation for you to act this way, so I still think you are scum. I'd like people to avoid voting you. Also, wtf is with this? + Show Spoiler + To everyone using "meta": What on earth is wrong with you people? Are you seriously saying that the TL players are so poor that you can just metagame them? How about playing based on what people do this game instead of comparing it to other games. I am starting to get fed up seeing the words "based on meta" come up in every few posts. Okay, if you don't like using meta yourself, then fine, don't use meta yourself. But are you really undermining every use of meta? Are you really saying that every player here is a "Mafia God" who can change metas as they will when they are scum and fool everybody 100% of the time or something? Players here can make mistakes or play badly every once in a while. When they do that as scum we do find them using meta. Why are you against this? Are you just going to assume everybody in this game is Akiyama or Yokoya and that you need elaborate plans and shit to catch them? Do you really think that or are you bluffing now to avoid doing anything constructive? If someone thinks Cephiro is town, please state why you think so. If you really think the correct way for town in every situation is to play "calm and analytical", you're playing the wrong game. The "Basic Handbook Townie", is nowhere neal optimal play in several cases, and there are various valid reasons why one shouldn't. Again I repeat, if you think that or cannot come up for the reasons why, you're playing the wrong game. So tell me this, is it easier to change up your meta to deceive others, or is it easier to read the meta of another player with full certainty? Wtf? You are still confusing the hell out of me. What do you mean by "playing the wrong game"? And what the hell is up with the bolded question? Why the hell would you even try to change up your meta to deceive others if you are town? | ||
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If we PM about it, then all that info will be hidden and it would have been pointless to argue in the first place. I'm not trying to convince YOU of anything, so I don't see why we should continue in PMs. | ||
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At this rate the lynch could be on any of chaoser, VE or Sheth, and scum can choose whoever they like of them to save or kill, specially considering some players seem that they won't claim what they will exactly vote.. @Cephiro: Okay, so you are tunneling wbg now and being greatly aggressive against him too just for calling you out (effectively another OMGUS) Noted. The thing I don't get is why the hell Ace is playing like he's playing. I know people fear him and shit when he's scum because he's cunning, sways people, etc...but unless I'm missing something in PM land he's just completely useless this game. I even doubt he's scum because of that, but fuck he's being so uncooperative and useless it's hard to believe that. | ||
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Hey BC, could you come to the thread and contribute and shit? I know you are PMing with wbg because your votes were updated in the spreadsheet. | ||
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Welp forgot about the "starting" part | ||
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That's basically total compliance from 3 out of those 5 you mentioned, and I doubt all of them will follow it. | ||
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Then let the last guy, the one you trust less to put VE on 5 at the last moment (I mean, if he's scum or something, he will still have to put 5 votes on VE as planned, if he does something else VE dies). We have enough votes to put everybody at 7 votes, and both sandroba and VE at 5 I think. | ||
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I don't care about "recognizing" 1 or 2 scum if it means it puts us in automatic D2 LYLO. | ||
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But they will have 5 votes each. That means scum will need 6 votes in total to accomplish that (or well, less votes if they lied about who they voted in the first place). That's the only way sandro can be lynched. If not then we just don't do shit and let VE die alone | ||
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Like, if there are N people in the majority, it takes X votes for a player to be completely safe from the lynch (again just like in the manga they needed 51 to be safe). That way we don't go overboard with votes (for instance why does Meapak have 9 votes on him in the spreadsheet?) | ||
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I find it worrying that there are so many votes missing though, it's likely Radfield can get lynched too. | ||
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Every single time you keep ragequitting on D1 and being disruptive as hell. | ||
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It said chaoser gave 4 votes to prplhz, but he gave them to Cephiro instead? Is this right? Or did you guys determine that in PMs but didn't update the spreadsheet? | ||
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Actually, if someone is town, he is supposed to get lots of votes from unique players, so I don't get why you state otherwise. About sandroba: VE said he would give his 5 votes to sandroba early enough. If sandroba is scum, then the scumteam would have been pretty confident sandroba would be saved, and would not even need to give him a single vote, specially once they saw VE didn't get a single vote either. There were also a lot of last-minute claims/votes that shifted the amounts of votes each player had quite quickly, and his scumbuddies may have already sent their votes by that time. For instance, like 10 minutes before the deadline I think Sheth or chaoser were going to be the lynch with 1 votes each or something. If sandroba is scum, and his scumbuddies weren't in those late-claimers, then I can see how they didn't give him any votes thinking he would be saved from the lynch (which to be honest he was, at least taking into account the prp vote malfunction). However, if he's scum maybe scum could have at least shifted the attention towards someone else, since the sandroba lynch was in motion very quickly once Round B started. Again, this doesn't tell me much though. It's speculation, but I don't see how it exempts him. He needs to come to the thread and do something. | ||
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You think Katina, prp and sandroba are scum? Why? To Sheth: Apparently syllo said you think I'm scum. If you PMed him that, why didn't you post it in the thread? Any reasoning why you think I'm scum? Other than that, can you use your ability at finding "mafia symptoms" and tell us who you think is scum and why? This was the only thing that resembled a scumread in your filter: On May 02 2012 05:31 Liquid`Sheth wrote: This is tough to figure out. I'm happy with VE dying honestly. I think his play is just much different then when hes town. There's not much more to say on that issue. To sandroba: On May 03 2012 02:05 sandroba wrote: I caught up and I see a lot of people expecting a "defense" from me. I have no defense, since there is nothing against me besides being inactive, which I was due to being holiday here and I went out, spend time with friends, etc. If you guys read the thread and get this idea out of your head that I must be mafia for being inactive, you will see I am confirmed town. Not a single soul in this game had any problems killing me or even mentioned I was town even when I was being active. Now if we can move on to finding scum that would be awesome. My early reads were MZ an Sheth were likely scum. MZ because of the way he entered the thread in his first posts and Sheth for supporting the plan for no particular reason, just to fit in. I don't believe he would have a solid read on palmar at that point (played with him very little and I don't believe he read a bunch of games for this sole reason) and didn't even want to create max minority, so I can't see why he would support him blindly. Okay, so those were your "early" reads. What are your current ones? Do you have any thoughts on other players? Also, having nobody "even mention you were town" is a shitty reason for saying you are confirmed town. If you are scum, why the hell would your scumbuddies out themselves trying to save you? VE had already saved you with his votes, they can bus or be indifferent at you all they want and you would be safe (I'd already explained this though). | ||
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We need at least 1 vig with his shot in hand for the next days. Because if all our vigs are spent, then scum will be completely safe each day if they can get into the minority. Doesn't matter if we make plans for Round A, scum (a single one or various) can just not follow it, and be completely safe since we don't have vigs to shoot them. So if we have more than 1 vig, don't shoot all at the same time. If we have only 1, then I'd advise not to shoot at all, unless you think you'll die tonight. or are 100% sure you'll hit scum. | ||
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However, I'd like the same from you too BC. To be honest, analyzing the minority list is not just like taking a random list of 8 players, because it's very probable each scum team split the vote 2-1, meaning there is at least 1 or 2 scum in said list (something you can't say of a random list of 8 players). Of course some scum team may have voted 3-0, but I think it's unlikely both did and ended up in the majority. | ||
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Could it be there are 2 Town Idiots in this setup? | ||
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Maybe they thought he was from the other scum team or something. Okay people, since people's been ignoring my plan since I posted, here it goes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=15#297 Here's my first vote: ##Vote: Cephiro I will vote for other people as the day goes on I suggest you guys do the same so we can organize Round A voting better, just like in D1, but without Palmar alone deciding who's in the minority or not. | ||
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On May 03 2012 12:46 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Gonzaw the fact that you can't figure out why Ace died is mind boggling. In any case, not only is your plan dumb but your scum suspect is even worse. What the hell are you talking about? And no, my plan is certainly not dumb. Do we need to do this discussion all over again? If you don't think Cephiro is scum, then please expand on it. I've been asking people for opinions on Cephiro since Round A of Day 1 and nobody gave a shit. | ||
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Those that post "##Vote: X" will go with it, those that don't won't. If most or all people go along with it then we can make it work. Remember we can lynch many people at the same time. I want to lynch Cephiro and for that I want him in the majority. And why isn't he the best lynch? He's trolling everybody and doing shit, and yet like I said that's not how he plays as town. If he's town why would he act like that? | ||
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Regarding wbg. He seems to put a lot of effort this game. I was suspicious of him in Round A, because he spent most of the time arguing against Palmar/syllo and not trying to contribute anything else. After Round A he started contributing, making sense, and taking an active effort in producing something. He put a lot of effort in making the Round B plan, organizing votes, contacting people, etc. I don't see him doing that as scum. So I don't see what I have to "reconsider" of him, specially since you started to think he's scum only immediately after he FoSed you. | ||
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Anyways, what makes wbg scum then? | ||
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Well, I'll try to think and come up with something better then (if any of you still want to follow the plan then still put ##Vote in the thread, at least I'll know you actually want to cooperate this round). @Cephiro: I see you keep instantly OMGUSing those that call you scum then? The ONLY scumreads that weren't blatant OMGUSes I've read from you were sandroba/prplhz, but you just mentioned them once and put 0 reasoning behind them @Meapak: You still haven't explained why Cephiro is "not the best lynch target" @Wiggles: Hey dude, I saw you've been absent from the discussion for a while. What are your current thoughts on Cephiro and BC? | ||
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Like I said, if we plan accordingly we can lynch several players at once this game, so what makes you completely ignore Cephiro then? Even if we lynch only 1 player each time and you want to lynch someone else, do you think Cephiro is town or not? | ||
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@Meapak: Cephiro is either Town Idiot or scum, you pick. If you decide to defend him I need more reasons than "I think he's much more likely to be town" and you flipping your shit against me if you want me to believe you. As for the "random accusations", I'm not pointing fingers at everybody and trying to get them all lynched just because. I'm posting my thoughts on as many people as I can as I play the game. Some people, like sandroba/prpr/BC said they were busy/at holidays/playing badly because of X and would up their game and be more active. As you can see I'm waiting for that to happen. However, at this point in time I think it's most likely they are doing it on purpose and are scum since they've had plenty of time to contribute since then (specially sandroba). chaoser is another one. The thing that made me less confident about pushing him is that a lot of people were starting to think he was town all of a sudden, and I thought something was going on in PM-land that made them think that. Yet I didn't receive any info from anyone about this, and chaoser himself isn't responding to my PMs either, so I don't know wtf happened. I thought Radfield was town on D1, however sloosh's recent disappearance worries me. I'd hope he had posted thoughts of his own by now, but I'm willing to wait him to do so. The thing is that I have various town reads, and then there are obvious scum (Cephiro) and people that don't even try to care about the game, be active or contribute. Choosing which one is scum from that pool of players is not easy if nobody does shit. Anyways, I have a test in 1 hour or so so I'll be gone until 3-2 hours before Round A ends. After I come back I'll look at more filters though, I haven't really checked Meapak's or Sheth's thoroughly yet | ||
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What do you think of Cephiro and other players? Could you give more reasoning why you think (or thought) Katina is scum? @sloosh: Please hurry up with those reads of yours. On May 04 2012 06:12 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Heyo, So I figured I'll reveal what I told syllo in Pm's a bit ago. Whenever I was mafia with Gonzaw in a newbie game a while back he was just always raging and mad and just very angry. I think Gonzaw started off with that sort of thing with his oppinions against Cephiro. So that was why I thought there was a chance hes mafia. I haven't been reading too too closely, but the fact that Cephiro put 4 votes on VE makes him look a small percentage better. Cephiro is still probably one of my top candidates for being town. As for being mafia I'm really unsure other then Gonzaw. Syllo scares me, and I scare him so I suppose there could be something there. I sent in my vote for YES again. Just because I don't know when I'll be able to check everything again. We were mafia together just once in my first game. And believe me, I get frustrated easily as town. Without taking that into account, why else do you think I'm scum? | ||
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What other reads do you have other than that? | ||
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On May 04 2012 12:02 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I'm giving all 5 votes to cephiro. G'nite all! Wat? You say you didn't have the time to fully analyze his posts, yet you instantly will give your 5 votes to him right away, instead of, you know, take your time and analyze his posts before deciding? You know you can't change your votes after you send them right? | ||
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On May 04 2012 12:08 slOosh wrote: As a note Radfield = slOosh. I'll be needing much direction this phase please. Have you read the whole thread by now? What direction do you mean? You know how this round goes right? Each player votes for 5 people, and the ones with the lowest votes are lynched. Like a reverse lynch of sorts. | ||
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Nobody else give any more votes to Cephiro for now If you are town and have a town read on him, then make a post saying why, posting your reasoning, and then we can figure out if you can give him votes or not; don't go all anti-town on our asses and play for yourself thinking "my reads are always right" or some shit and do the same thing VE did to us last day. | ||
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Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 05 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2012 07:40 Katina wrote: On May 02 2012 07:09 VisceraEyes wrote: My reads are all very weak because I'm basing them on what I perceive to be what is the best for town, which in this game I'm not sure I even know what the best course of action for town is going to be. That being said, my scumreads are: Ace, wherebugsgo, Meapak | | chaoser, Katina, EchelonTee Don't expect reasoning. It's true, all of my votes are on Sandroba. I feel like he's town and scum are pushing easy mislynches. I apologize to everyone for my apparent lack of concern for this game, but I've earnestly been playing and trying to find scum regardless of what you may perceive in the thread. But several peoples' attitudes this game (Ace and bugs come to mind) have made this game completely not fun for me to play any longer. O.o I like this. If I had a dime for a everytime someone called me scum without reasoning I would have enough hookers to serve the entire mafia community. Rawr. After going back and rereading, I think that Radfield, VE, Sandroba, EcholenTee should die in the Majority. I have explained Rafield and EcholenTee in one of my previous posts. VE and Sandroba should die for not helping the town. By the way Palmar is Mafia. Show nested quote + On May 01 2012 15:03 Foolishness wrote: First we should focus on who we want to kill. Personally I'm fine with VE or sandroba at this point (going to hold off on chaoser for now) and I could be convinced for Radfield as well. I realize this will be difficult but we need some sort of collective agreement on who to kill. As long as the majority (no pun intended) of us agree on a lynch target then it will be easy to ensure they are killed. For example, say we want to kill sandroba. That leaves 9 people we want to save. We have a total of 90 votes to work with. We vote in such a way to get each 9 players to have 10 votes. This will be done via spreading out (each player will vote for 5 separate people instead of piling all 5 votes on one person). Thus if anyone (dumb townie or mafia) tries to save him they will be unable to get enough votes to do so. And obviously if someone tries to deviate in such a manner we shoot them somehow. Show nested quote + On May 02 2012 06:13 gonzaw wrote: About VE: I was leaning town on him at first, because he was very aggressive, and at first he was actively trying to find some scum on wbg (although in a retarded fashion). However, since then he's just trolling, being disruptive, acting defeated even though not many people actually FoSed him or anything. Is this a trend or something? It's been 3 games in a row were people FoS VE and he starts acting like a crybaby and rage quitting. I'm comparing this to LIII, where he had quite a few votes on him when he ragequitted, and quite a lot of opposition. And there he at least contributed with his reads as well, and also claimed. But now he had hardly any pressure at all when he started acting like this, and didn't contribute at all afterwards. I could see his motivation for ragequitting on LIII, but now I don't see any motivation for him to do so, specially when there isn't a normal lynch system in this game. That makes me think he's most likely mafia . You are right syllo, both you and bugs never actively said that you wanted ve or ace dead. I do have bugs saying he believed VE was scum in pms though. As such I do have palmar, katina, foolishness, bugs and gonza all fine with VE, and confrontation between ace and many of you via his filter. So i have 5 of 6 people fine with killing a townie, and another large group at confrontation with one who died who was being aggresive towards what you guys were doing. Ehmm, wtf are you arguing about? You wanted VE dead too, here: On May 02 2012 11:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Show nested quote + On May 02 2012 10:50 gonzaw wrote: I don't get why no one of you would even try to cooperate. At this rate the lynch could be on any of chaoser, VE or Sheth, and scum can choose whoever they like of them to save or kill, specially considering some players seem that they won't claim what they will exactly vote.. @Cephiro: Okay, so you are tunneling wbg now and being greatly aggressive against him too just for calling you out (effectively another OMGUS) Noted. The thing I don't get is why the hell Ace is playing like he's playing. I know people fear him and shit when he's scum because he's cunning, sways people, etc...but unless I'm missing something in PM land he's just completely useless this game. I even doubt he's scum because of that, but fuck he's being so uncooperative and useless it's hard to believe that. Why would anyone fear ace? He is by far one of the easiest people to deal with in the game. If you think hes useless lynch / shoot him. If you think hes helpful, dont lynch or shoot him and instead med him. As for pm land, it is doubtful he is highly active there as he is renowned for saying how much he hates pm's. As for general way thread is going at the moment. If VE honestly dropped a ton of votes on sandro he has to go. As much as I believe acting individually during phase A is ideal to avoid mafia manipulating the majority/minority system to always be safe, phase B is more important in regards to making sure the scummiest player or if we all agree, players are lynched. Anyone who blatantly refuses to go along with a decision that everyone was basically in agreement of (or at least if they weren't no solid defense was ever provided of sandro) then that person has to be dealt with somehow to avoid continued purposeful sabotage of the voting period. Sandro has yet to come in and provide a reasonable defense of himself. I say this as he made his comment on what he had been up to, but had not at any point then followed it up with any form of solid town sandro play to assure us our worries were unfounded. Has anyone new information on this? VE, why have you gone so suddenly appearing so damn crazy -_-. Yet you are just rambling against syllo/Palmar/wbg/me/etc about "wanting to kill a townie"? Hypocrite much? BC, yes you've made some "analysis", but to be honest it's not very convincing, and it's buried in 1000 posts about you bitching against everybody. Just taking a look at your filter, every post of yours is a GIGANTIC WALL OF TEXT THAT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING. For example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=44#866 What does this say? Almost nothing. You just complain against Katina/syllo and keep complaining about people "sheeping", and saying that you are against "scumhunters that don't scumhunt publicly". Everything else is clutter that only serves to disrupt. Also, I see you say you make "analysis" and the like, but you still ignore important matters of the discussion. For instance, I don't think I've seen your actual thoughts on Cephiro yet, or at all this game. You said he was "annoyed at being prodded", nothing else. Instead of arguing, making gigantic walls of text filled with clutter, why don't you actually push those reads of yours? Why don't you stop disrupting the thread and post concise analysis, reasonings, etc? About Sheth: Okay so you say you are not sure about Cephiro, that you will reread his posts to make up your mind and that you are 50/50 on him, yet as soon as Round B starts you say you'll give all your votes to him. What's worst, you never MENTION THAT AGAIN. Wtf? You've made the scummiest move in all game and you just shrug it off? Even after you make a list of reads (that don't include Cephiro), and people ask you for your thoughts on Cephiro you just say "I didn't forget anything. I commented on Foolishness' list.", and you never mention again. However you mention once again then: On May 05 2012 03:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Ok after reading through BC's filter I like him. He has strong reads on Katina (whose I have a life defense I thought kind of lame). And I haven't looked at prplhz, but he has a read on him as well. I actually appreciate him not trusting Palmagism. As I'm somewhat in that same vote except I only distrust the gism part. So I don't mind Cephiro defending BC because earlier BC defended Cephiro. I'm still at around 50/50 for Cephiro btw. What? You now still think Cephiro is "50/50"? Bullshit. You've been defending him all game, calling him town, and now you give your 5 votes to him. There's no way you think he's "50/50". Even worse, you don't put any reasoning behind your read at all. And again YOU DON'T JUSTIFY YOU GIVING YOUR 5 VOTES TO HIM. Speaking of that list of "reads" of yours: On May 05 2012 03:03 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Here are my reads : BC - Suprised everyone thinks hes mafia. However I can see it a bit as he didn't really talk to me much and he provided me 4 votes out of no where. I do appreciate it BC, but I'd like to know the reason behind it. Syllo - I'm unsure. I think he has a 60% chance of being mafia, but a lot of people I talk to think hes 100% town... I'm sticking with my thinking that he has a good chance of being mafia. Palmar - Towniest Townie to Town. Gonzaw - 59% mafia due to his early tunneling / anger against Cephiro. I'm not sure though Gonzaw I would like to keep you around for another day to see more. Foolishness - I don't have much of a read on you. Katina - We've played a few games together and I dont' think we've ever PM'ed or talked together once. Whats up? What are your reads? WBG - I like WBG so far. I'm content with him living. You are "unsure" of everybody. You are wishy washy as hell. You don't state any reasoning behind anybody. You say things like "I like wbg so far".....???? Syllo and me are 60% scum in your opinion, but you don't say anything, you even imply that you think we are null or something. Apparently you think syllo and me are scum, yet you actually treat us as null reads. You never push us, you never make any analysis on us, nothing. You just skate by the game and act all "good boy" and shit. This is Day 2 and you act like it was 1 hour in Day 1. You don't read anybody's filter, you say "I haven't read him yet" every time and yet you fail to do so. You base some of your reads on things that happened like 2 days ago (you think I'm scum because I was "aggressive" against Cephiro like 3 days ago, yet you mention nothing else at all). Yes, you are scum Sheth. You appear to be absolutely ignorant of everything that's happening in the thread (which is bullshit), and you don't even care about it. Even worse you act like it's nothing and do whatever you want. To chaoser: I see you haven't answered my new PM yet. Doesn't matter, answer me here then. Why do you think ET is scum? What do you think of Cephiro? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 05 2012 06:48 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I care about whats going on. It was just a tough day1 with me having little time. Today I'm starting to get more ideas and reads. I'm also not acting or scum. You realize I didn't put quotes from your Day 1 right? I'm talking about right now, Day 2. You are acting like if nothing happened in the thread at all and you don't have any info to make any read whatsoever. You act like all of us are null, yet you still say things like we are "60% mafia" and shit without even pushing nor pressuring us. You said you were unsure about Ceph, yet said you'll give him your 5 votes, and never mentioned that again, what does that have to do with a "tough day 1" and "having little time"? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Apparently neiither Palmar nor Cephiro voted? Wtf? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:37 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 05 2012 18:31 wherebugsgo wrote: Sheth, two questions: what was the purpose of saying in thread you were giving votes to Cephiro/what did you get out of it? Why did you choose to tell Meapak that you were lying and not anyone else? The point of saying that I was giving my votes to Cephiro was primarily to get information out of syllogism and his group. I figured this would set them off and I'd learn from it. Ironically I learned a ton from PM'ing with Cephiro about this action. It also stirred up some people and some people ignored it or thought it looked ok. So mainly I just got a great read on Syllogism with it. Who I think is townie now a days. I didn't only tell Meapak. The reason for telling meapak was just that it felt fine. I couldn't spread it to too many people and telling meapak is a two edged sword. If more then one person votes on Cephiro and provides him plenty of votes then theres a good chance someone I told was mafia. If they didn't get a great amount of votes then I trust that person slightly more at little to no cost to me. I realize its not "great" play, but I just wanted to gain a little more knowledge from people outside of the thread. And it worked out ok for me. What do you mean by the bold? You think Cephiro is mafia and his scumbuddies would give him votes or something? Anyways, so you are saying that all your behaviour last day was a façade to figure out syllo's alignment? Even you being "unsure" about everybody and ignoring everything happening in the thread and everybody else? Couldn't you just try to figure out syllo's alignment or his group by reading their posts or PMing them directly? You decided to play as scummy as possible to do so? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
You didn't just "vote for cephiro"; you said you were uncertain about him, said you gave him all your 5 votes as soon as the day started, never mentioned him again and all the while you acted wishy-washy as hell, didn't have any reads whatsoever and ignored most things that happened in the thread. Okey Sheth, now that your "plan" is over, why don't you contribute more? Why don't you give more specific reads other than "he's 60% mafia because of something that happened on D1, I think, I'm unsure"? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
This makes me feel better about Katina though, Foolishness was VERY sure she was town Why are there only 1 kill each night though? Aren't there 2 mafia families? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:30 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I was coaching someone at that time period. Do you want me to have the guy pm you verifying my alibi? Syllogism asked if I would post who I told about my putting 5 votes on Cephiro not being real and those were the 2 messages that I sent in PM's. You can ask Meapak if its not exactly correct Anyway thats the context for those two quotes. Hey, it's day now, I guess you have time to "answer" my questions now and start contributing right? On May 06 2012 22:14 prplhz wrote: so what's going to happen today? prp, I haven't seen post at all lately, and I think I haven't seen any read of yours the whole game What are your thoughts on Cephiro/Sheth/sandro? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 04:10 GMT
#1017
About Sheth: What wbg says makes sense. You could have lied about telling people you PMed more than 1 person, and so you forged a PM with your scumbuddy. Even if you hadn't lied, you could have forged the PMs before saying it and planning it too to gain town cred if BC flipped. The way I see it your PM doesn't make sense in the context of the game:
Either way, even if this is false, then you are still mafia from the other team, so it's irrelevant. What's relevant is the fact that you haven't defended yourself against any accusations. I've called you out on not giving a single read or contributing at all, and when you DID it was wishy-washy as hell and just wrong, like you didn't even cared about making those reads. Yet here you are still doing nothing and just defending yourself, and you don't even care about scumhunting nor about the game We should kill Sheth today. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 04:13 GMT
#1019
Meapak/chaoser, contribute more, post reads, or just do any shit and care about the game or you are dead too. I don't know if we can pull off a multiple-lynch though. If we put Meapak/chaoser/Sheth up for the lynch, it's possible someone may even give some votes to Sheth (scumbuddy or stupid town) and save him. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 04:20 GMT
#1021
On May 07 2012 13:14 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 07 2012 13:10 gonzaw wrote: Guess I'm in the majority again. About Sheth: What wbg says makes sense. You could have lied about telling people you PMed more than 1 person, and so you forged a PM with your scumbuddy. Even if you hadn't lied, you could have forged the PMs before saying it and planning it too to gain town cred if BC flipped. The way I see it your PM doesn't make sense in the context of the game:
Either way, even if this is false, then you are still mafia from the other team, so it's irrelevant. What's relevant is the fact that you haven't defended yourself against any accusations. I've called you out on not giving a single read or contributing at all, and when you DID it was wishy-washy as hell and just wrong, like you didn't even cared about making those reads. Yet here you are still doing nothing and just defending yourself, and you don't even care about scumhunting nor about the game We should kill Sheth today. He didn't reply back to me. "Either way, even if this is false, then you are still mafia from the other team, so it's irrelevant." That quote is pretty bad. As for you calling me out, you've just asked stupid questions repeatedly. If you think thats calling me out then you're just crazy. How can someone both do nothing and defend oneself? As for scumhunting I'm look at ET and I've already said you look pretty bad forever ago I just haven't made a huge case on it. I don't really care about your PM with BC, that's the point, it could be legit or not (although I'm inclined to think it's not). What I do care about is your behaviour and your play this game. How can someone both do nothing and defend oneself? Why are you avoiding the issue and just argue semantics? Here, I'll rephrase: "Yet here you are still doing nothing other than just defending yourself...". | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 04:27 GMT
#1023
Whatever I'm not gonna argue with you, it's obvious you are just dodging the issue | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 17:43 GMT
#1096
On May 07 2012 22:26 prplhz wrote:I think you're painting a wrong picture of this situation when you say that it's according to "my reads", sounds like we're just doing whatever I feel like, which is not really true. I'm not claiming to have figured out the remaining 5 scum, I read the thread and listened to people and general consensus appears to be that those 5 are likely scum (and everybody else is likely town), so why not lynch them? Yea, my plan actually accounts for how you, as a townie, might mess it up just to piss me off. You're in red. I don't really see why any townie would mess stuff up just to piss someone else off though. If you feel like somebody is scum or whatever then there are clearly better ways to go about than to just try to mess everything up. prplhz, what are your exact reads (and not "general consensus")? Well, apparently your reads are those you marked in read in that list, but why? You haven't brought forward any reasoning for any scum read since the game started if I remember. @chaoser: Can you give any reasoning why you think those are mafia? I asked you why you thought ET was mafia before and you never answered. Now you think Sheth is mafia all of a sudden and you don't say why either. @sloosh: Again, do you have any scumreads either? Geez what's up with you people? You guys are making this game quite frustrating by deliberately doing no scumhunting at all. Can you add sloosh's filter to the filter list? On May 08 2012 02:09 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I've figured out why I'm being targeted like this btw. If you are mafia you actually want to kill other mafia. So that makes sense that syllo's mafia play would still be this hunting really badly for the other house. Anyway I'm town, and I think my flip will actually help town more then anything else I can do because you guys seem to just assume I'm mafia regardless of what I say. Look at Gonzaw the kid has a good chance of being mafia. lol I'd say I'm still waiting for your actual "case" against me but I know you'll never make it. About prplhz's plan: I've already PMed wbg, but well I'll put it here as well. I don't think having these 3 lynch targets and trying to kill all of them at the same time is a good idea. I want Sheth lynched today, and that's very unlikely to happen if we do this. I'm sure Cephiro will give him all his 5 votes or something, and in prplhz's case sandroba/Meapak can give him some votes to save him as well. Even if they don't, Cephiro's votes suffice to save him. Even worse, Cephiro is obviously not cooperating, and is an obvious mafia that doesn't fear "getting caught" by voting as he pleases. If we leave the votes on chaoser/Sheth/Meapak at 0/0/0, Cephiro alone will be the one that will determine the lynch. It's also apparent that not everybody will follow this plan in the strictest terms, and some people may slip some votes to one of chaoser/Sheth/Meapak to save them as well. The point is that we will definitely control that at least 1 of these 3 will die, but we won't control who. Unless we are 100% sure all 3 are scum then this is obviously flawed. I don't want to risk Sheth being saved, yet the townie out of chaoser/Meapak (if there is one) getting lynched instead. We should get the obvious mafia lynched first, in this case Sheth, then Cephiro once he's in the majority. I think we should just give everybody except Sheth 8 votes and make it simple. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 19:13 GMT
#1109
On May 08 2012 03:26 prplhz wrote: @gonzaw They kind of my reads too, but I think Cephiro was painting it as how I just wanted everybody to sheep my bad reads. I was suggesting a plan that went along with general town consensus and that's important because everybody is needed to make it work. Yes, I figured that out, but why are they "kind of your reads"? You can't come out of nowhere and just agree on the consensus, you need to put reasoning yourself How can Liquid`Sheth survive if we go through with my plan? You are suggesting that he might survive if Cephiro gives Liquid`Sheth 5 votes and sandroba/Meapak_Ziphh gives him 4+ votes combined, but so what? They will be working directly against town wishes if they do that and confirm themselves as scum @syllogism If we go through with the plan I suggested I don't see why we can't lynch three people today. There are 25 votes unaccounted for and split among 3 scum that is 9/9/7, which means that they can, if the two scum groups coordinate among themselves and out themselves in the process, save two people still leaving one dead. It's just too much risk for too little gain for scum and they'll most likely end up saving at very best one of the reds in my list. If you are so sure that they're all red then I have no idea why you are stalling with the, "it is unlikely that we can't lynch more than on today". Eh, if 2 of those 3 players have 1 vote then they are still saved. No need to "out whole scumteams", Cephiro himself can do something like "Give Sheth 3 votes, give Meapak 2 votes" and get chaoser alone lynched for instance. A player doesn't need 9 votes to save himself, he just needs to have more votes than someone else. Why does it matter if all 25 votes unaccounted go 9/9/7? That means that 2 of those players will have more votes than the other one. If the unaccounted votes go 2/2/1 or 1/1/0 it is the exact same thing. If everybody except those "unaccounted votes" followed your plan, then only 1 player with 2 votes could fuck up your entire plan by lynching someone of his choice. Considering Cephiro has expressed his lack of cooperation again and again, and is not afraid to troll us and do what he wants, it's not unlikely that he can choose to use the votes to choose the lynch himself. Cephiro is already "outed" as scum, he has no risk whatsoever on giving Sheth/chaoser/Meapak votes, yet he has a tremendous gain since he single-handily decides the lynch. Really, there are too many too townie people who think that these guys are a decent lynch, every excuse you can use not to go through with it is just crazy. Sheth is obvious mafia. chaoser and Meapak are not, and there's the chance one of them may actually be town, even if unlikely. If that's true then scum can choose that one to lynch and we waste another day, and it may continue like this if we keep doing it. The plan isn't even about lynching 3 people, it's about keeping 5 people alive. Ehmm, you can keep those 5 people alive too if you give 9 votes to everybody except Sheth as well. We cannot do better than this plan because then we would be compromising townies. No we wouldn't, why would you say this? Give me/Katina/syllo/sloosh/Wiggles 8 votes to each. After that is done, start giving chaoser/Meapak votes until all votes are accounted for. There is no way Sheth can't be lynched in that case, and there is no way we would be "compromising townies". I know that you're still suspicious of me wherebugsgo and gonzaw but can't you talk to syllogism or Palmar about this or something. If you guys don't want to go through with this plan and you want to lynch only one then you have to use votes for the 5 greens in my list to spend on 2 of the reds, what votes do you intend to use for this? Which of the greens do you want to take votes away from to give to the reds? Tell sandro to vote Meapak/chaoser. If he doesn't follow the plan and outs himself to give Sheth 5 votes or something, then well what can you do but at least you'll have a confirmed scum, and only chaoser/Meapak would get lynched. chaoser and Meapak will surely cooperate I suppose, I mean, even if they are scum they would survive so they won't "out" themselves as scum to get lynched. You can always tell them to vote each other. Again, if one of them doesn't cooperate it outs himself as scum, and it would mean only one of chaoser/Meapak gets lynched The only ones I could see not cooperating in this scenario are Cephiro and Sheth, but those 2 alone can't do shit to save Sheth if we give everybody votes except Sheth. Also we tell Cephiro to only vote chaoser/Meapak (although I doubt he will listen) We can also have players outside the sandroba/Sheth/Cephiro/chaoser/Meapak circle give some votes to chaoser/Meapak, and leave some other townies with 7 votes. In this case, if Cephiro/sandroba/etc do something weird to save Sheth, since they had votes on chaoser/Meapak in the first place it would mean one of chaoser/Meapak would get lynched instead of the townie with 7 votes. With this plan, no townie (or at least no player outside the chaoser/Sheth/Meapak circle) will be compromised, and the ONLY way scum can save Sheth is to completely out 1 or 2 teammates as scum (and it will be obvious they do), and only chaoser/Meapak would get lynched. With your plan, it only takes Cephiro to do what he pleases to lynch any of Sheth/chaoser/Meapak as he sees fit without any risk, and yes if he saves Sheth only one of chaoser/Meapak is lynched. You can see which option is better, since I know it's 80% likely Cephiro will do whatever the hell he wants and decide the lynch himself, I think he even said so before (but I don't really remember). | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 19:22 GMT
#1114
sandroba should give 2/3 votes to Meapak/chaoser (in whatever order) Meapak should give 5 votes to chaoser chaoser should give 5 votes to Meapak If this goes according to plan, Meapak/chaoser will get 7/8 votes each, and even if Cephiro gives all 5 of his votes to Sheth, he can't save him unless sandroba outs himself as scum too. Then, the other players circle trade votes between the other players of the majority. Other tweaks could be made I guess, but unless someone else other than sandroba/Meapak/chaoser outs himself as scum and votes something completely different, then Sheth will be lynched. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 19:26 GMT
#1118
Meh there may be other ways to do it, but while Cephiro is alive I won't follow prp's plan. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 07 2012 20:05 GMT
#1131
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 00:49 GMT
#1151
On May 08 2012 05:32 prplhz wrote: I'm think that gonzaw/slOosh might be on to something here, if there's a townie in there then he's probably dead instead of any scum. This is probably not a great plan since I thought it up so I'm a bit worried that people are just going along with it for the most. I hope everybody plays along and we kill the three and then we see what comes out of it. What do you mean that I'm "on to something here"? Can you tell me why lynching Sheth alone is a bad plan? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 03:06 GMT
#1159
I have given my votes to chaoser and Meapak. 3 to Meapak and 2 to chaoser to be precise. I've discussed this with wbg (and PMed syllo, apparently he was asleep >_> ), and I found that this was the best way to get Sheth lynched. If everybody had just followed the plan right now, then scum could chose whoever they wanted for the lynch, and most likely save Sheth, and that's a very bad outcome for us if one of chaoser/Meapak is town. This way, if Sheth ever gets 1 vote, or even 2 he gets lynched. Why didn't I tell people? That way scum won't know that Meapak and chaoser got any votes. If they didn't know they'd get any votes, I thought they'd be more complacent and give Sheth less votes, since giving him lots of votes isn't necessary (if Meapak/chaoser have 0/0 votes, then giving Sheth 1 vote would suffice to save him). I noticed how BC got 0 votes for him last day, so I figured it was likely Sheth wouldn't receive much votes even from his scumbuddies (unless Cephiro is one of them, like I said before), so I thought it was likely he'd get 1 or maybe 2 votes. Because of this, if I'd get chaoser/Meapak to at least 2 votes, then Sheth (and possibly chaoser as well) would get lynched. Since I'd prefer chaoser lynched than Meapak, I gave Meapak more votes. There is the possibilty Sheth has 5 or 6 votes right now, or even 3 and survives, but that would have happened whether I put my votes on Meapak/chaoser or not. However, since it's unlikley chaoser/Meapak/Sheth will get 5 or 6 votes EACH, then we don't lose anything and don't compromise other townies from the majority, assuming other people followed prp's plan and gave votes to those players. So in short, by splitting the vote we wouldn't lose anything, but we'd have slightly more chances to get Sheth lynched. Anyways let's hope for the best. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 03:06 GMT
#1160
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 03:26 GMT
#1165
At least I was right that Cephiro would try to determine the lynch by his own: chaoser (7) Cephiro (5), gonzaw (2) Normally I would ask you for your reasoning behind this, but I don't think it's needed. I'm trying to figure out if you are scumbuddies with chaoser, or you just decided to get the easy lynch on Sheth first. Also: On May 08 2012 12:13 Liquid`Sheth wrote: G'luck Mafia ~ Wat? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 03:55 GMT
#1167
On May 08 2012 12:37 slOosh wrote: How extensively did you discuss this with WBG? I was under the impression that he wanted at least chaoser dead (had some reservations about Meapak). Could we get the PM logs? Well, he said he prefered chaoser dead than Meapak, and I agree too, so I gave chaoser 2 votes instead of 3. In the event that Sheth gained a high amount of votes, then at least chaoser would get lynched. Anyways, how do you get to quote the PMs all nested one over the other? I can only copy paste the text I guess there is no harm in posting them, we didn't discuss about other things either so it won't reveal much. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 08 2012 21:11 GMT
#1257
On May 08 2012 20:45 syllogism wrote: Show nested quote + On May 04 2012 04:25 gonzaw wrote: chaoser is another one. The thing that made me less confident about pushing him is that a lot of people were starting to think he was town all of a sudden, and I thought something was going on in PM-land that made them think that. Yet I didn't receive any info from anyone about this, and chaoser himself isn't responding to my PMs either, so I don't know wtf happened. So I'm re-evaluating things in the light of what happened last night and noticed this. Who were the people who were starting to think he was town and did you PM them to ask why? Your playstyle is very aggressive, so I'm finding this explanation very dubious. Who have you been in PM contact with and can I see your logs? I remember lots of people saying that (or something similar) in the thread. I don't specifically remember who, but Foolishness and wbg come to mind I think. Foolishness even PMed me about that as well: + Show Spoiler [Foolshness PM] + Hi, yeah I was out for the evening so I was gone during the posting. No need to worry about me. I told Wiggles this as well but it seems to me that you and him and Cephiro are arguing over nothing. I'll take a closer look tomorrow to make sure but I really don't see what all the hubbub is about. I think it would be better to focus attention elsewhere. Personally I'd be happy with VE/sandroba dying. I'm skeptical about chaoser. I know I attacked him first but his reaction took me to thinking that he is town and that I'm mistaken. My case also hasn't garnered as much support as I thought it would. However lots of things don't add up. Right before day was half over he sent me this PM: Show nested quote + Original Message From chaoser: Hey, I was wondering what you thought of katina? can you pressure him a bit for me? This is the first thing he's sent me (I've never sent him anything either). I thought it was very odd that he would send this especially considering I was gunning for him earlier. I'm not quite sure what his goal was when he sent this to me. And why send it to me of all people? On the subject of Katina, yes I have been talking with her. I'm confident she is town. On what you noticed, she's usually very confident with her posting when she's town. In Arkham City she was mafia and there was a bit more hesitancy with her posts/accusations. Also her one post about mafia splitting 2-1 was pretty good. I haven't been talking to her about that so I'm assuming she figured it out on her own. I don't think a mafia would willingly reveal that sort of information to the town (hence I also think Ace is town). Anyways she's in the minority so this is not the proper time to worry about her. My idea goes along with what I've been saying in the thread. We as a town need to pick one or two people we want to kill. It's important we get a collective agreement on who (I realize this is incredibly difficult but bear with me). Once we have the people we want dead, we spread out votes on everyone else. Say we want to kill sandroba. That leaves 9 people we want to save. We have 90 votes to work with, so we have everyone spread out so that each 9 people get 10 votes. We do this in a way of spreading (that is, everyone will vote for 5 separate people instead of piling all 5 votes on one person). This way if someone tries to deviate to save sandroba (mafia or dumb townie or whatever) they will be unable to get enough votes to save him. I will post the above plan in the thread before I go to sleep now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, you've been absent these last few hours in the game, I was getting kind of worried. What do you think about Cephiro? And there's someone that caught my eye as well: What do you think about Katina? Have you PMed with her yet? She acts quite confident with her posts when there really isn't any need to, and I find that quite odd. Of course post in the thread if you can too, we need people to actually start posting in the thread and not on PM-land so this game isn't utterly destroyed by inactivity in the thread. And we need to come up with some kind of strategy for Round B voting as well. I PMed Radfield about it but he didn't have any plan for now. Do you have any ideas? I PMed wbg asking him why he thought chaoser was town too, yet he said he was "not sure" or something that didn't convince me either. About chaoser: Damn, I regret not getting him killed yesterday. I know what you are doing chaoser, you are doing the exact same thing BC did on Day 2. You are arguing and arguing against syllo/wbg/Palmar, discrediting them as much as you can, disrupting the thread as much as you can doing the whole "aggressive" act, and meanwhile you throw some half-assed FoSes around (like BC did with Katina/Foolishness). Why did it took you so long to make a case against ET? Why are you making your first case and posting reasoning why you think someone is scum on NIGHT 3? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 03:38 GMT
#1275
Both teams could have shot at Ace and Foolishness, but maybe there was a medic save or a vet hit in one of those nights? Seems unlikely though, considering 6 VTs flipped yet no blue was killed yet, but both teams shooting both Ace and Foolishness seems even more unlikely. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 05:06 GMT
#1279
Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=53783 | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 17:23 GMT
#1289
No, last night wbg didn't tell me anything about any plans for today, or about Palmar being scum or anything else. I'm confused about it too, I don't know if he forgot, did it on purpose or hell maybe MZ is lying about it and somehow forged 100000 PMs between him and wbg or something. Here is the last PM I got from wbg: + Show Spoiler [wbg PM] + my example of putting 5 on meapak was merely an example. When meapak announced to the thread that he was receiving 5 from sheth it should have been apparent that you would not need to put votes on him. Cephiro had already said he wasn't putting votes on Sheth. That's when the "put votes on one person to influence the lynch" kicks in. Cephiro knew the three people we were trying to kill. If he says he's not voting sheth then that suggests he's okay with sheth dying (i.e. cephiro and sheth are not connected). When meapak says sheth is giving him 5 votes that automatically means sheth is receiving 0 and cephiro is putting 5 on chaoser. it is at that point that sheth becomes most likely to flip town out of the 3 and you would put 5 on him. Sadly meapak posted that almost half an hour into my final. I sent my votes in at 10:30 KST and he posted it at 11:30 KST. meh. At least we've eliminated one person and we know chaoser is still very likely to be scum. I'm still suspicious of sloosh as well. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, the instructions have nothing to do with it. If I have 5 votes to Meapak, Sheth would still have gotten lynched. Same if I just followed prp's voting system. Unless you've told me to give 5 votes to Sheth he would have gotten lynched, hell, even if I put my 5 votes on him he would have gotten lynched. Also, I feel a little responsible for the misslynch too. I tried to push a single lynch on Sheth the whole day, so trying to get a single lynch on chaoser or Meapak was almost impossible to make. Original Message From wherebugsgo: I just got back. I'm writing a post, read it. Sorry for not giving you clearer instructions, I was preoccupied. We should've 100% been able to lynch scum today, and I will take the blame for that mislynch. Original Message From gonzaw: What a disaster. I can't believe Sheth was town, his play didn't make any sense. Anyways, it seems my "play" didn't matter at all either, since Sheth gave Meapak 5 votes and Cephiro gave chaoser 5. What do you think Cephiro giving chaoser 5 votes means? (other than Cephiro basically outing himself as scum) Are they scumbuddies? Or did he try to frame him and get an easy lynch on Sheth in the process? Even if Cephiro tried to frame him, there's still the possibility they are scum from different factions though. I'd really like MZ to tell me if wbg said anything else to him. Or maybe someone else knows about this too and can share it. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 22:39 GMT
#1310
On May 10 2012 06:12 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Alright I fucked up with Palmar. I thought his plan was retarded and since he's put zero effort into this game I assumed he was scum. I reread his filter and realized that he actually wants to kill the same people I do. For clarity's sake, here's the PM from Bugs that put made me think Palmar is scum. Also for those wondering, WBG never told gonzaw why Palmar was scum, so that link is gone.+ Show Spoiler + Original Message From wherebugsgo: Thanks for this, it's very useful. I have an idea, but I'm going to wait on it. In fact I'm going to tell gonzaw and syllo, so that if I die tonight they will know what I think. based on this vote pattern, though, I think Palmar is scum. I will explain it to syllo and gonzaw and if I die tonight they will make the results public. If I don't die I'll do it myself. The reason I'm not telling you now is because I want to play it safe. I want to see if the trend I see continues. Based on what I'm seeing I'm sure it will because it is nearly impossible for that type of trend to be purely accidental. Show nested quote + Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Every day should be in there, just scroll down for the vote tallies. Original Message From wherebugsgo: where are the ones for d2/d3? just in the process of updating them? Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I have a chart that I've started which has everyone's votes, where their placement is. I've come to the point where I'm trying to pick the final scum out of Palmar/Sloosh/gonzaw/syllogism and I'd like your help. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auq9565OCwtldEFLN25uQUtabEE5anBfUV9GRlJMOHc There's also a handy spreadsheet in there, bugs and I used it to flesh out voting patterns. Sadly, I'm really not sure who to put down as scum in place of Palmar. We'll still go through on the plan I set forward earlier today, we've still got plenty of targets to work with, it just means that I'm gonna need to go back and look through my townies to figure out which one of them is scum Palmar I'm sorry, I jumped to conclusions and now I'm slightly fucked. Since your reads are basically mine, who do you think is the last scum? So wbg didn't really give you the "magic pattern" thing that supposedly makes Palmar scum? Okay Meapak, do you have another analysis of Palmar's play that isn't just "his reads are basically mine"? Remember, you put sandroba, Wiggles and Palmar as the same scum team. I don't see much mention of sandroba on Palmar's filter, much less of Wiggles. What exactly do you think contradicts this? Also I agree, Wiggles is scum (cba to make a case, I already posted thoughts and shit on PMs, but Meapak's case sums it up nicely). What I found very odd about Wiggles is how he went full throttle against Cephiro on D1/N1 I think, even calling him scummy and his behaviour idiotic and stuff, but then he goes and says he doesn't want him lynched, and then even ignores him and just says he thinks he's "bad town" and never mentions him again. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 22:52 GMT
#1311
Also: Sloosh, can you tell my why exactly WBG was hesitant in calling MZ scum? I'd like to know if I have a reason to think MZ is just wrong, or if I need to consider that he could be scum, too. Wait, you say you'll just sheep wbg's read then? You are even worse than prphlz. Why do you need wbg's words for there to be a reason for you to think MZ is scum? Can't you read his filter or PM him to find out? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 09 2012 22:56 GMT
#1312
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319120&user=99050 | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 00:31 GMT
#1315
On May 10 2012 08:12 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Where did I say that I'm just going to sheep WBG's read? I asked if there's a reason for thinking Meapak is town. Sloosh is implying that there was something that happened in secret/PM land that gave WBG a reason for thinking Meapak is town. It's either something with role, and his actions would show he's town, or it's something he said that made WBG think he's town. I'd like to see what it is to see if I draw the same conclusion as WBG or not, as I obviously don't know about it yet. I also don't see why it can't be put in the thread. Thanks for putting words in my mouth and ascribing motives to me, though. I thought you asked sloosh for reasons why Meapak was suspicious. Why exactly do you think Meapak is scum then? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 03:59 GMT
#1326
Still, Palmar/Wiggles/chaoser are in it though, so it's not a total failure. I'm trying to organize the votes as well, so if you are going to vote please claim your votes to me. I'll share the spreadsheet with few people though, so don't expect to see it here. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 04:34 GMT
#1332
Meapak check your PMs. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 19:00 GMT
#1361
1)Being neutral about the lynch, and just asking some things about Meapak To: 2)Wishy washy stance on Palmar On May 10 2012 14:04 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Right now there's 6 town and 5 scum. I'm a mislynch, so I propose we kill Palmar today, since I feel best about him being scum at this point. I don't think we can multi-lynch effectively right now. We have people who are supposed to get lynched as soon as they hit the majority, so they can screw with a multi-lynch without any fear, essentially. Also, we're at the point where we can't unnecessarily kill any townies, or we lose control of the lynch more than we already have. It's getting to the point where scum will have to shoot the other scum team, or they'll risk losing in a king-maker scenario where town gets to pick who wins, which I'm sure would be unsatisfactory, or to pure numbers of the other team if too much KP hits the town or town mislynches too many at once and gets their numbers wiped out. So, they should keep that in mind when they send in kills tonight. Then to: 3)Being fully convinced Palmar is scum and making a huge case against him? Why is it that only now, when you are in danger of dying, that you actually make a case and take a strong stance on someone? It didn't take you too long to convince yourself that Palmar is scum and make a case against him, so why couldn't you do it before? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 20:52 GMT
#1372
On May 11 2012 04:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2012 04:00 gonzaw wrote: Wiggles, how do you come from: 1)Being neutral about the lynch, and just asking some things about Meapak To: 2)Wishy washy stance on Palmar On May 10 2012 14:04 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Right now there's 6 town and 5 scum. I'm a mislynch, so I propose we kill Palmar today, since I feel best about him being scum at this point. I don't think we can multi-lynch effectively right now. We have people who are supposed to get lynched as soon as they hit the majority, so they can screw with a multi-lynch without any fear, essentially. Also, we're at the point where we can't unnecessarily kill any townies, or we lose control of the lynch more than we already have. It's getting to the point where scum will have to shoot the other scum team, or they'll risk losing in a king-maker scenario where town gets to pick who wins, which I'm sure would be unsatisfactory, or to pure numbers of the other team if too much KP hits the town or town mislynches too many at once and gets their numbers wiped out. So, they should keep that in mind when they send in kills tonight. Then to: 3)Being fully convinced Palmar is scum and making a huge case against him? Why is it that only now, when you are in danger of dying, that you actually make a case and take a strong stance on someone? It didn't take you too long to convince yourself that Palmar is scum and make a case against him, so why couldn't you do it before? First, I didn't make posts about the lynch, because we didn't have the majority yet. There's no point in making a case on Palmar if he's not going to be able to get lynched. The post you linked to, is my first post after the majority is revealed, where I could actually choose someone who's able to be lynched. So, I'm not being neutral about the lynch, I'm just waiting to know who I can lynch. If you actually read my last post, I was suspicious of Palmar last night phase already, so it isn't like this is new. Next, how is saying "I feel best about him being scum at this point." and that we should kill him a wishy-washy stance? It seems like basic reading comprehension, but please tell me how you think saying that is "wishy-washy"? "I feel best about" means that he's my strongest scum-read for lynch candidates, and saying we should kill him, means exactly that. So, there's no leap between saying that and my last post, unless you're not paying any attention to what's going on. That post says I think Palmar is scum and I want to lynch him, and my last post gives my reasons. On day 1, I wanted to lynch VE, I did so. On Day 2, I wanted to lynch BC, and did so, and on Day 3 I wanted to kill Sheth, and did so as well. I'm not sure how helping kill who I want dead is not taking a strong stance. My votes make my stance clear, and I also show it in thread for Day 1 and 3, if not as much on Day 2 because I didn't post a lot then while I was busy. The rest of it's in PMs if you need me to dig them up. Multi-lynches haven't worked, so why am I going to bring up cases on people when they aren't the ones I want to lynch yet? You call me out for not making a case on earlier days, but I didn't want to lynch someone else on earlier days, so there was no point in trying to make a push for it. Instead of asking why I didn't, why don't you explain why I should have? I'm making a case now, because I want Palmar to die, and need to get more people behind it. There are no other cases, except for on me, and people all saying Chaoser is scum without a case. So, if I want something to happen, I need to get support because it isn't there yet, and I need to do it myself, because nobody else seems to want to. If you can't see that I'm town, or at least that Palmar is scum, you're blind and we're going to lose. This is directed to whichever townies are actually left and still reading. Even in Round A, why wouldn't you at least post reads or who you think is scum? If Palmar was in the minority, would you just ignore him completely even if you were sure he was scum? I can't really think you expect me to answer "Why should you post cases?". Anyways, yes I found that "he's our best bet for scum" wishy-washy, because it's not as strong as it seems. It makes it seem like you just choose him as scum because you had to, not because you actually thought he was scum. Also: So why am I going to bring up cases on people when they aren't the ones I want to lynch yet? Ehmm, didn't you say you wanted BC and Sheth lynched on D2 and D3? By this reasoning of yours, why didn't you make a case against them or even state you wanting to kill them in the thread (as far as I remember)? Anyways I'm in a hurry, gonna go to uni and be back like 1-2 hours before the deadline. Talk to MZ about anything related to votes and stuff and he'll tell me and ET once we come back. Wait, you wanted to kill BC on D2 and Sheth on D3? I don't remember you saying anything like that. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 10 2012 21:03 GMT
#1375
Fuck the format of my last post was fucked up, the "Wait, you...." was supposed to be before in the post. Well fuck it.. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 11 2012 03:48 GMT
#1389
But damn, 1 more vote on chaoser or one less on Wiggles and both would have died If 2 more townies die tonight we'll get in trouble. Hopefully the remaining Yokoya will start shooting the other scum team. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 11 2012 19:50 GMT
#1410
If I die, then listen to ET and MZ and trust their plans to lynch scum. If I don't die, well then do that as well since I'm gonna be absent for some time. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 12 2012 22:02 GMT
#1433
Well damn, I did think we would be pretty fucked with 2 kills tonight or something. Night kills are very weird this game, I don't know what the hell is going on or why scum sometimes kill and sometimes doesn't. Gonna check PMs and then try to come up with something, ET are you here? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 04:20 GMT
#1445
*cue Cephiro shitting on me again* Everybody except those 2 need at least 8 votes to be safe from the lynch, and we need to come up with something to counter-act any weird gambit from those two or other scum. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 05:06 GMT
#1447
On May 13 2012 13:36 Cephiro wrote: Lol gonzaw? Like I've shat on you the whole game.. Anyway, if you are going to kill me, I'm going to give 5 votes to sandroba. Because if you keep killing anything else than the other scumteam, you're heading straight for a loss. And at this point even though it's clear sandroba is the remaining yokoya scum, the town will need his votes if you decide to kill me. As if I die, the town is down to 5 players, minus possible nightkills = 3-5 players alive for D6 if I am the only one to be lynched. So, let me get this straight: First of all, let's assume you are town, alright? Now, you know only one of you or sandroba will die tonight, and nobody else will give you any votes. Also, you think sandroba is the remaining scum from the Yokoya mafia. What would happen if you give sandroba votes? Then the only one that would die is you. That means town would get to N5 with 5-3-1 numbers, and maybe up to 3-3-1 on D6, which means we are very screwed. What would happen if you don't give sandroba any votes? Then BOTH of you would die, netting us another scum kill, and scum would have 1 less KP since we would wipe off one of their families. If you see both choices, then the 2nd one is obviously the one you would make as town. You didn't make it, then it's safe to assume you are scum, since you offer no other plans to not "keep killing anything else than the other scumteam". Also people, I think I came up with a plan to get either sandro or Cephiro lynched, even if another scum decides to out himself to give those 2 votes. I'm gonna check it out with ET and MZ first, but if they approve it it's good to go and I'll post it here. So please don't vote yet. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 05:08 GMT
#1448
"Now, you know only one of you or sandroba will die today, and nobody else..." | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 05:43 GMT
#1450
Also, how should we believe you are telling the truth about your votes? If you are scum from the other team, then you can easily bluff just so we give you more votes to get both you and sandro lynched, then you'll get sandro lynched alone and you can survive another day. Anyways, doesn't matter since you are scum as well, and most likely from the other team so you dying will actually fulfill exactly what you are preaching I'll show you guys what you should vote today to ensure one of Cephiro or sandro, or both get lynched today, no matter what (I guess ET will be okay with it, didn't get a PM from him back though) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 06:25 GMT
#1451
Voting system for Day 5 Image: http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/gonzaw1/votes.jpg That is how you guys should vote. Search your row, then search the columns to the right. The X row meeting the Y column means that the player X should give the player Y c[X,Y] votes. For instance, prphlz should give Wiggles 2 votes, and sloosh 3. Why do it like this? There are 50 votes in total and 7 players in the majority. 50/7 rounded up is the amount of votes needed to be safe from the lynch, which in this case is 8. As you can see, everybody except sandro and Cephiro have 8 votes each, meaning they are safe from the lynch, meaning that if those 8 players vote like that, one or both of sandro and Cephiro will be guaranteed to be the lynch. Why this strange voting system then? Why not just have all those 8 players give votes randomly so those 5 players get 8 votes each? Because someone from that list of 8 players (me, ET, Katina, Meapak, Wiggles, Palmar and prplhz) may be scum and choose not to follow that voting system. He may do that to actually give sandro and Cephiro votes so someone else is the lynch. How can this happen? Okay, imagine that Cephiro gives sandro 5 votes (which he actually claimed he would do) and sandro gives Cephiro 5 votes. In this case, then sandro and Cephiro would have 5 votes each, while the rest of the players would have 8 votes each. In this scenario, both sandro and Cephiro would effectively be lynched. Now, what happens if one of those 8 other players is scum, and instead decides to give sandro/Cephiro 2 and 3 votes respectively? Let's call this guy "Player X" Imagine Player X gives sandroba 2 votes and gives Cephiro 3 votes. What would be the tally then? sandroba would have 7 votes, while Cephiro and the others would have 8 votes, so sandro would still get lynched, right? Wrong. Since Player X was following that plan, it means that at least he gave one of those other 5 players 1 vote. If he lied about it and used his 5 votes on Cephiro/sandroba, then it means that player would get at least 1 votes less. If that player had 1 vote less, then it means that he will have 7 votes along with sandroba. This means that both sandroba and this player get lynched. If that player had more than 1 vote less, then it means that player will be lynched alone. Examples of potential mass-town kills: If Player X gave two player 2 votes and another one 1 vote, then he would effectively lynch the first two players, while sandroba and Cephiro would both live (those 2 players would have 6 votes each, sandro 7, and Cephiro and the rest would have 8). Also, if Player X gave 5 different players 1 vote, then he would effectively kill 6 people (sandroba plus those 5 people he voted before, since all 6 would have 7 votes). "Okay" you might tell yourself, "This is independent of the actual way people vote, so what's the deal with this actual system"? First of all, if we use a random way to determine how those 8 players vote, then it's likely Player X gives me and/or ET votes. Meaning, if Player X is willing to out himself as scum to save both sandroba and Cephiro, he can get either me or ET lynched, or even both! Unless one of you wants to raise your hand to call us scum, then you can see why that's a bad situation. Because of that, I tried to minimize the the amount of potential "Player X"s that vote for me and ET. So the only ones voting for me and ET are:
I'm pretty sure ET and MZ are town, and it's likely Katina is town as well. This would mean that no "Scum Player X" can choose to kill one of us to save sandro+Cephiro. Even if one of those were scum, then I doubt he would out himself as scum to get us killed, considering his whole cover would be blown. Even if he does out himself to kill either me or ET, then even better. You would have a scum handed to you in a plate that would have been very hard to find otherwise. So that leaves how many votes these players give/receive:
And this player that's in the minority:
By the way the system works, those 4 players can give votes only to people from that first group above. Meaning, if Player X were to be one of those, then he can only get people from said first group to die (if he were to make that gambit I described above). If Player X were to do that, then by killing one of those people he wouldn't harm town too much (he would also remove a potential suspected townie for a next lynch), and he would also out himself as scum so we can get him later. Even more, I made the system so each of those 4 players only gives 1 of sloosh/Wiggles/prphlz 3 votes, and another one of those 2 votes. What does that mean? It means that if Player X wanted to make his gambit, then he can get only one of them killed. How's that good? It's good because Player X could potentially kill various townies like I said before. This way of voting counteracts that. Conclusion:
So people, unless you have any questions or complaints, follow this plan. Make sure to PM me/ET/MZ your votes as well. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 06:25 GMT
#1452
Oh yeah, if someone can post the actual image then it would be great. I dunno why but when I post it it cuts off the edges >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 06:40 GMT
#1453
Conclusions:
| ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 06:50 GMT
#1454
Oh yeah, in the "If 2 scum decide to out themselves" they can only kill me/ET if one of those scum was Katina/me/ET/MZ. If both scum were Palmar/Wiggles/sloosh/prphlz then me and ET would still survive. (yeah I think that's the last correction I'll make >_> ) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 07:57 GMT
#1458
On May 13 2012 16:26 prplhz wrote: Well then seriously question my alignment. I wont be around until tonight though. Why won't you follow it? What alternative do you propose? On May 13 2012 16:37 Cephiro wrote: Show nested quote + On May 13 2012 16:03 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Obviously everyone should be able to see why we're following this plan today. Honestly if I see any opposition to this plan it'll make me seriously question your alignment. Yeah, obviously we should follow a plan where everything is based on the assumption that I am scum. Now when I'm not, you're screwed (unless you're scum.) I would not be surprised to the slightest to see you flip red. Anyone that doesn't understand why sandroba should be kept alive regardless of being the last remaining yokoya scum is either scum for trying to kill him, or then a really stupid townie that is being deceived. From your own POV you should have 0% problems with my plan and would actually want to follow it. If you want to keep sandroba alive as you claim, then there is absolutely no problem with my plan: You give sandroba votes and you will die instead, just like you wanted earlier. There is absolutely no contradiction with my plan and the plan you mentioned earlier (getting you to die alone). Of course, you are scum so you need to invent some excuses and create strawmen to oppose anything that's productive for town right? And no, I'm not a "scum for trying to kill him" nor a "really stupid townie that's being deceived", because I want both you and sandroba dead, not just him. sandroba will flip Yokoya and you will flip the other scum mafia. We will be at 6-2-0 at night and be in a strong position tomorrow. Why am I sure both of you will die? Because I know you won't give sandro any votes. I mean, why would you want to keep another scum from a different faction alive but you die instead? You know it's probable he will shoot into your team these next nights, so why would you keep him alive if you have the chance to kill him no matter the outcomes? Answer: you wouldn't. Nope, you won't give him votes, and nobody will (remember his buddies are dead). Your buddies won't give you votes so they don't out themselves, and both of you will die. Also by following my plan your buddies can't save both of you and get another townie lynched or something That's the plan and I'm sure it will work, so I'd think twice before calling me "really stupid townie that's being deceived" again if I were you. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 23:01 GMT
#1471
Wiggles, Palmar, ET, you are the only guys that are left to confirm the votes. Palmar, if you don't vote according to plan, then Wiggles alone might die. I don't remember you calling him scum, so you wouldn't want that would you? Wiggles, if you don't vote according to plan, then sloosh alone might die. I don't remember you calling him scum, so you wouldn't want that would you? I guess ET will come back soon. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 13 2012 23:01 GMT
#1472
Ninja'd | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 14 2012 03:18 GMT
#1477
I can't believe this ... And he actually gave his votes to sandroba.... ... | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 15 2012 01:22 GMT
#1494
Also, do you still think prplhz is "confirmed town"? Again, review that after these past events. If you still think prplhz is town then expand on it. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 15 2012 03:01 GMT
#1495
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdGlhekd5dU9rVkdJZDlzWnFybmFSV2c#gid=0 I gave it only to ET and MZ because it could be edited, and didn't want some anonymous scum to just delete all of it or something. I made it editable so it could still be updated after I died. Well, I forgot people can just copy-paste it again if I die and update it themselves, so if I die do that (it's not editable anymore). ET and MZ have my reads if I die, ask them for it if I do. I wonder what the fuck will happen tonight though, maybe there are 2 more kills or something | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 15 2012 03:14 GMT
#1497
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 15 2012 03:30 GMT
#1498
People, please answer this question: Would you be willing to let me/ET/MZ control your answer for today? As in, we will you let us tell you what to vote? This isn't just directed to Katina/ET/MZ/sloosh/etc, but to Wiggles/prplhz/Palmar as well. I know scum will oppose it, but maybe some stubborn townie will as well (or maybe some townie with some legitimate concern). So if you oppose it or not please explain why so we can tell the difference. If not, then PM us and we'll discuss how to get scum into the majority. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 15 2012 15:00 GMT
#1502
On May 15 2012 22:04 Palmar wrote: @Meapak: you've basically been going after sandroba/prplhz throughout the game. Do you think syllo and I were wrong when we decided that it seemed very towny of prplhz to not understand the voting thing and allow syllo to basically control his actions on day 1? You actually wrote an analysis on prplhz at one point. Do you still think he's scum? On May 15 2012 22:08 Palmar wrote: It seems very unlikely sloosh is scum based on the fact that radfield very vocally supported me and syllogism early in the game. in addition, he also voiced support for foolishness's early case against chaoser which turns out was correct. he was basically backing townies and taking a stance against mafia. He roleclaimed to me on day 1, quite early. I don't think he's scum. Do you have more reasoning for thinking they are town other than "they sheeped me/syllo"? Also I don't get what Radfield's "support" of the case against chaoser has much to do with anything since we are searching for the other scum team at the moment. But well, okay, you can PM with MZ and discuss how to answer today. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 16 2012 01:35 GMT
#1518
Gonna check PMs and shit, then PM people who haven't voted yet what to do | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 16 2012 04:35 GMT
#1520
Okay, gonna discuss some things with MZ/ET and try to come up with some plan for today's voting, and shed some light into some of our reads or people we want to lynch. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 16 2012 18:03 GMT
#1525
Voting System for Day 6 Image http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/gonzaw1/Dibujo-38.jpg Why this system? Okay, I don't want to repeat everything I've said the last day so I'll just link it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=73#1451 Okay, basically sandroba will get 0 votes, and everybody else will get at least 8 votes. If anybody gives sandroba any votes, they should be considered confirmed scum by now (although I don't know why anyone would want to give sandro votes). sandro has to put his votes somewhere, so we might as well tell him where. We put sandro's votes with 1 on Katina, and 2 on Palmar/prplhz. That way, if sandro decides to do something funny, he won't be able to choose how many relative votes Palmar and prplhz have (as in, if prplhz would have 1 more vote than Palmar or 2). That way he can't really choose who to kill of them (if something REALLY weird happened, like 2 other scum outing themselves or something). sandro is guaranteed to be lynched, even if 1 other person outs himself as scum. Why? Because if someone outs himself as scum to give sandro 5 votes, then sandro at worst can take out his 2 votes from Palmar and prplhz, putting them at Palmar-6 and prplhz-7. Since sandro would have 5 votes sandro would still get lynched. So even if some scum decided to give sandro 5 votes to lynch someone else, sandro would be the only lynch today. sandro, I'd advise you to just follow our plan and vote like that. There is nothing else you can do to survive today, so your votes are a total waste, so you might as well vote like we told you to. We argued and decided to only kill sandro today, just so we can get an almost guaranteed scum lynch. We can worry about Palmar later. That's why I wouldn't want anything funny happening with Palmar so the only people voting for him are Meapak and prplhz (other than sandro of course). Since prplhz might be a little bit suspicious, again I'm the one giving him 3 votes so someone else doesn't try something funny as well. For instance, if Player X claims to give Palmar or prplhz 3 votes, then he can lie and give his 5 votes to sandroba. In that case, if sandro puts his votes elsewhere the lynch would be Palmar/prplhz alone and not sandro like we wanted. Although that wouldn't suck since Palmar/prplhz dying isn't a bad thing, our objective today is killing sandro alone, so we just planned to make that thing happen and forget about the rest. That's why only me/MZ are the other ones giving them votes. With this voting system we tried to give myself 10 votes first, so no matter what I'm safe from the lynch (even if scum out themselves and shit). Then we tried to give everybody except sandro 8 votes, and then we tried to account for those weird scenarios I described above and accommodated the remaining votes to reflect that. So, everybody okay with this plan? If so, you can start following it and vote I don't see a reason why you wouldn't, so if you don't want to follow it state specific reasons not to, and if they are not satisfactory you'll be put under heavy scrutiny or even be considered scum. Of course, if you say you'll follow the plan and vote otherwise later, we'll take it as a scum claim. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 16 2012 20:21 GMT
#1528
If you have any questions ask Meapak or ET about them (again, like usual). See ya | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 02:03 GMT
#1531
On May 17 2012 09:24 EchelonTee wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2012 07:07 Katina wrote: Have to leave early today so sent in my votes as planned ^ There shouldn't be anyone to randomly save Sandro this time... hoping we strike true. Well, not only there shouldn't, but there can't be anyone to randomly save sandro this time. The numbers don't allow it Anyways, just voted and hope you guys already did, gonna do some shit and be back in the deadline. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 03:02 GMT
#1532
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 04:37 GMT
#1534
Fucking sandroba fucking up our plan, had he just voted 2 on Palmar and 2 on prplhz he would have died. Too bad about prplhz, with Palmar being scum it seemed pretty logical they were trying to protect each other You see, my and MZ's votes are off, that's the "announcement" from before, I'll explain it in detail in a few moments | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 04:47 GMT
#1536
We weren't planning on killing sandroba alone at all, we were planning on killing all 3 of sandroba/Palmar/prplhz After Cephiro's death, we quickly figured out Palmar was scum, and by that and considering prplhz's behaviour, we (or at least I) got very suspicious of him. So on Round A we tried to organize the votes to get all 3 into the majority, or at least 2 of them. That's why me, Katina and sloosh would vote NO, while ET; MZ and Wiggles would vote YES. That meant that at least 2 of sandroba/Palmar/prplhz would get into the majority, and we would kill those who got there. Once Palmar said he voted NO, I tried to get prplhz to vote NO as well (and PMed him that we would try to kill Wiggles and Palmar or some shit). We were very surprised when all 3 were in the majority, and that's when MZ came up with a plan to kill all 3 of them. The plan was to tell everybody to vote in a certain way that would get sandroba killed alone, while in fact we (me and MZ) would secretly vote differently to kill all 3 of them. You may recognize this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDZEWUlEU2w3YnpTU3Jid1ZfRVRiWGc#gid=0 It has the same votes I mentioned in the plan. Also notice the "Phony" in the title. That wasn't the real one at all, this one was: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDd4OU10S3JTc1EwZFAtQUtZSlJENXc#gid=0 The only votes that change are mine, and MZ's. However, the lynch would go from sandro alone to sandro+Palmar+prplhz. sandro would get lynched only if he complied with us and gave Palmar/prplhz 2 votes. If we tried to make it like he already lost and his votes were a waste, then maybe he'd just give up and put them there as well. We did know that maybe sandro would vote otherwise, which is why we made him put 2 votes on Palmar/prplhz, so if he didn't follow our plan, at least Palmar and prplhz would die. Well, I was getting pretty excited because I wanted all 3 to die and expected them to die, but well, we finally got a Harimoto so we have plenty of info to use from now on. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 04:50 GMT
#1537
Even if sandro is Harimoto it still works. If there are no more night kills, I say we just get sandro lynched alone once and for all; if there are night kills, well then we need another multilynch (hopefully with sandro on it as well) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 05:04 GMT
#1539
*sigh* hindsight is 20/20 and all. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 05:54 GMT
#1540
Post your thoughts on the Palmar flip and our "plan" please. We may try something similar in a next day, or maybe we won't. Scum will just have to WIFOM about it every time we post a plan, and try to follow it and have the chance we'll fuck them secretly, or just out themselves by voting to save each other when they weren't actually in danger of dying. Of course, all of that after we kill sandroba, that's for real this time (if we try to do another "secret" plan he'll fuck it up again, so no way we are letting him live any longer) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 06:17 GMT
#1542
Unless there is 1 or more night kills each night from now on somehow, we have this game in the bag. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 15:39 GMT
#1545
On May 17 2012 15:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2012 14:54 gonzaw wrote: You know people, you are allowed to talk and shit. Post your thoughts on the Palmar flip and our "plan" please. We may try something similar in a next day, or maybe we won't. Scum will just have to WIFOM about it every time we post a plan, and try to follow it and have the chance we'll fuck them secretly, or just out themselves by voting to save each other when they weren't actually in danger of dying. Of course, all of that after we kill sandroba, that's for real this time (if we try to do another "secret" plan he'll fuck it up again, so no way we are letting him live any longer) The palmar flip wasn't surprising at all. After syllo/WBG flipped, it was painfully obvious he was scum. I don't think your plan was very good. Sure, we killed Palmar finally, but there was absolutely no discussion on prplhz in the thread. I didn't have a strong feeling that he was scum, and if you had actually bothered to make a case in the thread, I would have said so. I don't like that you're ready to flip people based on your own suspicions and with no discussion, as it can very easily lose us the game if you're wrong. Why'd you keep your suspicions of prplhz out of the thread? Why would I keep my suspicions of prplhz out of the thread? Because 60% of you were scum that's why. I only trust my reads with MZ and ET, and I discuss them with them. I'm not "ready to flip people based on my own suspicions", we talk things through, I'm not controlling the game like a dictator or anything. I was suspicious of prplhz, because of: 1)His terrible Day 1 (read MZ's case on D1/N1 against prplhz for that) 2)Lack of contributions, lack of reads 3)The reads he had, he justified them only by saying "I'm sheeping syllo" 4)Unconditional support of Palmar without even stating why 5)Unconditional support of a SCUM Palmar without even stating why 6)Not only not cooperating with us (me/MZ/ET), but also going against our plans many times (like that time he gave Palmar 5 votes and saved him from the lynch) It basically boils down to that. Also, had we presented our read on prplhz last day, we wouldn't be able to perform our plan and try to get all 3 lynched, since scum would know something was off and may have tried to fuck up our plan in a different way (for instance Palmar or prplhz voting differently, or giving 5 votes to each other or something). Well people, what I'm expecting of you (or at least from the townie out of you) is to post your reads and who you think the remaining 2 scum (other than sandro) are at the moment, and explain why. Don't worry, we'll still only kill sandro tomorrow. If my guess is right and scum don't have any more KP, then we won't have any problems with that. We'll lynch sandro and then deal with the remaining 2 scum the next day (on D8) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 16:14 GMT
#1548
We were talking about killing prplhz/Palmar/etc on Night 5, and on Day 6 Round A we just decided how to get people to vote (NO/YES), and on Round B we decided the "plan". I don't know what else you mean. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 17 2012 18:02 GMT
#1550
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 18 2012 03:31 GMT
#1559
Okay, gonna discuss with MZ/ET some shit and then tell you guys how to vote to kill sandro. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 18 2012 03:38 GMT
#1560
We will come up with a plan soon enough, so don't be hasty Consider this your warning | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 00:48 GMT
#1571
I'm interested in hearing your scum reads. Ever since D4 or so, you only really FoSed Palmar and sandro, nobody else. As you can see, there should be 2 more scum other than those two, and considering there are 5 other players to chose those 2 from, it will be easier for you to find scum, right? I'm waiting. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 00:49 GMT
#1572
Please don't share those PMs with sandro, and preferably with no one else, so as to keep scum as much in the dark as possible. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 04:14 GMT
#1575
We'll only get sandroba lynched today, so Katina+sloosh+Wiggles will need at least 9 votes to be safe from the lynch. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 04:50 GMT
#1577
Voting System for Day 7 Image: http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/gonzaw1/Votes-1.jpg Explanation: Again, sandro gets 0 votes, everybody else gets more than 9 votes so they are safe from the lynch. Even if 1 scum outs himself sandroba is still the lynch no matter what, and Katina/Wiggles/ET are safe from the lynch as well. We accounted sandro's votes because again, he has to put them somewhere. Hopefully he accepts surrender this time and just cooperates with us. You are allowed to vote now | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 05:19 GMT
#1578
We'll only get sandroba lynched today, so Katina+ET+Wiggles will need at least 9 votes to be safe from the lynch. Yeah, ignore that >_> I'm just so used to writing "Katina+sloosh+Wiggles" by now that it just stuck | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 20:04 GMT
#1587
On May 20 2012 00:39 Katina wrote: Show nested quote + On May 19 2012 08:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On May 19 2012 03:45 Katina wrote: On May 19 2012 03:39 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On May 19 2012 03:35 Katina wrote: On May 19 2012 02:58 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: So gonzaw, ET, and myself have been doing the heavy lifting the past few days. I'd like to ask everyone who the final two scum are (we're not gonna worry about sandro right now since he's gonna die). Wiggles and someone else Who else? Well if I had figured that out or come to a conclusion I would have said so silly -_- Why are you so unwilling to contribute? You're rapidly approaching cephiro/VE level of uselessness. I'm not. I honestly don't know. Going by the votes it seems you would make the most sense for the last mafia on Palmar's team. But if we're going by behavior then I'm not going to point any fingers at you, which is why I haven't. I looked through Pick Your Power Interesting and you were very calm and passive in that game as mafia. It's nothing like what you are doing this game. I raise an eyebrow because you seemed gone/inactive days 2-4ish but on day 1 you were really active and since day 4 you've been here. So I'm not coming to point fingers yet until Wiggles and sandroba are dead and I'm more confident about killing you than anyone else. What do you think about sloosh then? You say you don't want to point fingers at MZ yet, but what about sloosh? Also, again, we won't do a multilynch today, we'll kill sandroba alone, so where each vote goes doesn't matter at all if everybody follows the plan | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 21:05 GMT
#1588
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 21:21 GMT
#1589
Anyways people. again, vote according to the plan. If someone votes differently we'll take it as a scum claim and we'll kill him later (like usual). I guess not much will happen until the flip, so let's enjoy the match! (hmm, I don't really know who to root for, instinctively I want Chelsea to win since I always watch the EPL, but I want Chelsea to lose since I will LOL so much since they'll miss the next year's CL and Spurs will go instead ) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 19 2012 23:53 GMT
#1592
On May 20 2012 08:24 Katina wrote: Show nested quote + On May 20 2012 05:04 gonzaw wrote: On May 20 2012 00:39 Katina wrote: On May 19 2012 08:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On May 19 2012 03:45 Katina wrote: On May 19 2012 03:39 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On May 19 2012 03:35 Katina wrote: On May 19 2012 02:58 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: So gonzaw, ET, and myself have been doing the heavy lifting the past few days. I'd like to ask everyone who the final two scum are (we're not gonna worry about sandro right now since he's gonna die). Wiggles and someone else Who else? Well if I had figured that out or come to a conclusion I would have said so silly -_- Why are you so unwilling to contribute? You're rapidly approaching cephiro/VE level of uselessness. I'm not. I honestly don't know. Going by the votes it seems you would make the most sense for the last mafia on Palmar's team. But if we're going by behavior then I'm not going to point any fingers at you, which is why I haven't. I looked through Pick Your Power Interesting and you were very calm and passive in that game as mafia. It's nothing like what you are doing this game. I raise an eyebrow because you seemed gone/inactive days 2-4ish but on day 1 you were really active and since day 4 you've been here. So I'm not coming to point fingers yet until Wiggles and sandroba are dead and I'm more confident about killing you than anyone else. What do you think about sloosh then? You say you don't want to point fingers at MZ yet, but what about sloosh? Also, again, we won't do a multilynch today, we'll kill sandroba alone, so where each vote goes doesn't matter at all if everybody follows the plan It's posts like the one Sloosh made above that makes me sure he's town over anyone else right now. Wait what? How does that post of his convince you he is town? That post of his alone makes you think he's more town than me/MZ/ET? Even after we got 2 scum lynched (and will get one lynched soon enough)? What about the rest of his posts? What about his behaviour? Is it enough "town-like" for you to think one of the "trio" is scum? If so why? You two seem to have town reads on each other all of a sudden when you guys barely mentioned each other at all before. Show nested quote + On May 20 2012 06:21 gonzaw wrote: Penalties! Anyways people. again, vote according to the plan. If someone votes differently we'll take it as a scum claim and we'll kill him later (like usual). I guess not much will happen until the flip, so let's enjoy the match! (hmm, I don't really know who to root for, instinctively I want Chelsea to win since I always watch the EPL, but I want Chelsea to lose since I will LOL so much since they'll miss the next year's CL and Spurs will go instead ) Now at this point I'm going to have to raise an objection. When is "later"? There are 7 people alive and you're telling us that if someone diverges we can just kill them later? How is that going to be possible when there are 2 people (sandroba and Mr. Wiggles) that everyone wants dead who are still alive? You went against the plan yesterday and sandroba is still alive and he shouldn't be. I'm not complaining that much because Palmar was my top suspect, but prphlz dying on top of that is suspect. How are you expecting to hold people accountable if something bad happens? As I said before just by the numbers your little trio there has at least one mafia in it. Getting a townie lynched yesterday instead of just one mafia seems like an incredibly anti-town maneuver. Especially since there doesn't seem to be any more night kills. Obviously "later" refers to "tomorrow" sandro will be lynched no matter what, and even if someone votes differently than the plan and outs himself as scum, we can easily get him lynched tomorrow. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 00:47 GMT
#1594
I already made a spreadsheet with all the votes and shit just so people could stop wasting time making charts of their own (but apparently everybody ignored it) Here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdGlhekd5dU9rVkdJZDlzWnFybmFSV2c#gid=0 Also, I don't really get when you say things like "yeah sloosh can't be scum because then scum woudl triple stack on Day 4 or 6" and shit because you don't explicitely state which mafia family you are talking about or the actual scum team you are talking about You also don't mention any behaviour at all. Without taking voting patterns into account, do you think ET is scum and sloosh is town? Anyways, I'm going out and I'll miss the lynch, so I'll leave MZ in charge of things until I come back. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 09:41 GMT
#1598
Damn, it was expected that sandro was scum, but I thought he would flip Yokoya. Even better! Now scum won't be able to win in a 2-2 situation, so we have even more chances to win. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 10:07 GMT
#1599
As you can see, we were planning on killing sandroba alone all along. The "weirdness" of the votes were a plan I came up with to "scare" scum. If Wiggles/Katina were scum, then they would fear that we would make a multilynch with them. If so, then scum would be more likely to panic, and maybe have scumbuddies dump all their votes unto them to save them, or just have people panic in thread, slip or go apeshit about it, etc. Again, here are the "real" and "phony" spreadsheets: "Real": https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDgtUmVkVlQ3b2pKT1MtU0tEUWMyTHc#gid=0 "Phony": https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDNVcjhEbGNKbUtaRjVfd1lJRklKR0E#gid=0 Me and MZ think it produced pretty interesting results. ...now however, it seems it produced another result as well: Mr. Wiggles (12) sandroba (5) We shouldn't trust sandro's votes since they come from confirmed scum. But if sandro and Wiggles were scumbuddies, then it would make sense they would fear the "trio" trying to get Wiggles lynched. Since sandro would get lynched as well, they would instantly lose, so perhaps they just went "all in" and decided to save Wiggles no matter what, even if it outted themselves. Well, I'll discuss that with ET/MZ, you guys should give your opinions on the matter as well. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 23:10 GMT
#1601
-We DIDN'T lynch you, and decided to lynch sandroba alone (scum may I remind you) instead. -We made a plan that forced scum (and perhaps a townie) to take action, in which would otherwise be a pretty straightforward sandro lynch without any information at all -This made it so sandro gave 5 votes to Wiggles, which is pretty good information itself to analyse (depending what conclusion you get) exactly because of our plan And instead of trying to use that information, comment on it, etc, you keep bashing us and our plans? Why don't you tell us who the Yokoya scum is then? Why won't you analyse sandro's flip and figure out who is Harimoto? Why not do anything other than create more vague mistrust in our circle? Also, those "interesting results" were sloosh desperately trying to come to your aid and dump votes unto you, and you two having town reads on each other out of nowhere. Granted, you can't be scumbuddies now, so it's not as strong as me/MZ thought before, but it's an interesting result nonetheless. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 23:24 GMT
#1604
On May 21 2012 08:14 Katina wrote: ...I was just making conversation It surely doesn't seem like that if as soon as we get a scum lynched you continue to bash our methods. Who do you think is Yokoya and Harimoto then? I posted a helpful chart with votes and shit so you can analyze them easier and so you don't need to waste time on looking at each Day/Night Post countless of times. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 23:29 GMT
#1607
"Without taking voting patterns into account, can you back that up?" Also lol, supposedly I'm the poor townie that's being misled by 2 different scum infiltrated in our circle (if you say ET is Yokoya and MZ is Harimoto). | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 20 2012 23:36 GMT
#1609
On May 21 2012 08:31 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Gonzaw don't you love all the activity now that people realize you and I are gonna win this for the town? Well, at least it makes the game less boring for now Also, check your PMs | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 03:31 GMT
#1612
People, NO ONE vote for now. We have a plan for today, me/ET/MZ will discuss it a little bit more, and show it to you guys shortly We have a very good chance of winning the game TODAY | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 04:44 GMT
#1614
Ultimate Plan for Day 8 Introduction: Today we will kill all 3 of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh. Me and MZ are convinced the 2 remaining scum are in that group, and ET thinks so too, or at least he agrees with the plan. The 2 remaining scum are surely in that group, and today we'll get rid of both of them. To do so, the plan needs to be organized in 2 phases. Phase A will refer to the plan for Round A, and Phase B will refer to the plan for Round B. First, I'll tell you guys the actual plan, and then I'll tell you why it will work Phase A: Votes for Round A: NO: gonzaw - Mr.Wiggles - slOosh - Katina YES: EchelonTee - Meapak_Zipph Phase B: Everybody, except me should give their 5 votes to me (gonzaw). I'll put my 5 votes on ET or Meapak (illegal votes). The votes will look like this: gonzaw (25): (5 EchelonTee, 5 Meapak_Zipph, 5 Mr.Wiggles, 5 slOosh, 5 Katina) Mr.Wiggles (0): Nobody slOosh (0): Nobody Katina (0): Nobody Illegal votes: EchelonTee (5): (5 gonzaw) If illegal votes weren't allowed for some reason (I don't see why they wouldn't, sandro didn't receive any warning for making his illegal votes on Day 6): Then I'll give 2 votes to Mr.Wiggles, 2 votes to Katina, 1 vote to slOosh, and 1 of ET or MZ will give the remaining 1 vote to slOosh. Reasons why it will work Premise: Each townie will follow this plan In anticipation to the people casting doubt on ET, MZ and me, I'll tell you guys what happens in the case one or 2 of us are scum: If 2 of gonzaw/Meapak/EchelonTee are scum: Then Wiggles/sloosh/Katina are all townies. Because of the premise, they will follow the plan. All 3 will die. However, that will leave us in a 1-1-1 situation. Considering there will be no night kill (surely) on Night 8, we will arrive at Day 9 in a 1-1-1 situation. That's basically a kingmaker scenario and stalemate for scum. It would most likely end in a draw with the remaining townie dying, or the townie deciding who of the 2 scum win. However, I would say a stalemate or draw is better for us than a loss, and you guys should know that if 2 of me/ET/MZ are in fact scum town and we don't follow the plan, then we would surely lose anyways If 1 of gonzaw/Meapak/EchelonTee is scum: Then we'll arrive at Day 9 in a 2-1 situation. This is normal LYLO, and we can figure out who the scum out of us is, we can still win. Now, the chances of the 1st situation happening are basically 0%, and the chances of the 2nd one happening are very low IMO. However, even if one of us was scum, we can still win. Those scenarios should not really be considered since I'm sure we 3 are town, which leaves us to: 2 out of Katina/Wiggles/slOosh are scum Scenarios for Phase A: The 2 scum vote YES: In this case, both scum will try to vote YES to avoid being in the majority and save themselves from being killed today. The votes will be: NO: gonzaw - townie YES: ET - MZ - 1 Yokoya - 1 Harimoto Both scum WILL be in the majority. Both of them will be outed (remember the Premise, if someone is town they'll follow the plan), and we can easily kill them today and/or tomorrow 1 scum votes YES: One scum decides to stick with the plan for Phase A, but one decides to vote YES to try and save himself The votes will be: NO: gonzaw - townie - 1 scum YES: ET - MZ - 1 scum There will be a draw. Because of the premise, then that scum will be outed, and we can easily kill him alone the next Round A after the draw. After he's killed, we do a similar plan for the remaining 2 players to kill the remaining scum The 2 scum vote NO: Then they decided to follow the plan...good. They'll learn this is the best thing for them since it means the game will be over sooner Scenarios for Phase B: 1)Both scum follow the plan: In this case, both will end up with 0 votes on them, and both will die. In this case we'll win the game. Again, I suggest scum taking this course of action, so the game ends sooner and we don't need to have to wait until Day 15 or something to win this game. 2)1 scum follows the plan, but the other one doesn't In this case, there are 2 options: 2.1)The scum only saves the townie out of Katina/sloosh/Wiggles: In this case, then the townie will be saved but both scum will be dead with 0 votes 2.2)The scum only saves the other scum: In this case, the scum that didn't follow the plan will die with 0 votes, along with the townie, but the one that followed the plan will live. Again, this will out that scum as scum since he's still alive, and we'll kill him the next day 3)Both scum decide not to follow the plan In this case, there are 3 options: 3.1)Both scum will only save the townie out of Katina/sloosh/Wiggles: It's possible both choose 1 player to save, and it's the townie. In this case both will be dead with 0 votes 3.2)One scum saves the townie, and the other one save the other scum: Then 1 scum will die with 0 votes, and the other will be outed. The townie will live though, which is nice (better than (2.2) for instance). Again, pretty easy to kill that scum on Day 9. 3.3)Both scum save each other: In this case, only the townie will die. However, this will out BOTH scum, and will leave us in a 3-1-1 situation. Considering most likely there won't be a night kill on Night 8, we'll arrive at Day 9 in a 3-1-1 situation with 2 outed scum, and we can kill both of them by forcing them into the majority on D9 and/or on D10. Now, if both scum follow Phase A, but decide to screw us on Phase B by voting to each other, then one of those scenarios above may happen. The "worst" of them is having both scum save each other. However, that happening is very unlikely Why?
This won't happen, because for both scum to survive today, each scum NEEDS the other scum to save him to survive. If the other scum doesn't do that correctly, then said scum will die. So scum, hear me out, it will be VERY likely that you will die, even if the other scum has the best intentions to try and save you somehow, he has a chance of saving the townie instead So scum, hear me out again: You lost Don't fight back, and follow the plan exactly and we'll end this game right now and we don't need to drag it to Day 9 or even Day 10. If you decide to "rebel" today, you'll either out yourself to die tomorrow, or you'll save the scum from the other faction, but you will still lose So don't be a pain in the ass and follow the plan, okay? So, now I'll talk to the townie out of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh This whole plan rests on the premise that you'll follow it. ET and MZ will surely follow it, so the only way it will work is if you follow it yourself. As you can see, if the other 2 out of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh are scum, we will win 100% no matter what, so you don't have anything to fear. If you think 1 of me/ET/MZ is scum, then you'll know that we still have a chance to win in a 2-1 D9 LYLO. By following this plan, if 1 of us were actually to be scum then we'd end this game sooner as well (and we wouldn't need to spend 3 days lynching all 3 of you). If you somehow think 2 of me/ET/MZ is scum, then surely you know that if that was the case we lost already. However, if you follow this plan we can force a stalemate and maybe a draw. However, I assure you that all 3 of us are town, so trust me on this one and don't rebel yourself against the plan. If you do, it will make us think you are scum trying to rebel and fight back, and we'll likely lynch you in the future and have a chance to lose. Again, it also means the game will end sooner no matter what you think is the case. So, reminder: To Town: Please follow this plan and I assure you we'll win today and end this game once and for all To Scum: Please follow this plan since you already lost. You surely want this game to end right now as well, and you know you can't win, so make it quick and follow it. You only need to Answer NO today and give your 5 votes to me tomorrow, nothing else. So people, this is the plan, and hopefully everything that needed to be said about it was already said, so get to it and vote according to Phase A please. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 04:51 GMT
#1616
However, I would say a stalemate or draw is better for us than a loss, and you guys should know that if 2 of me/ET/MZ are in fact scum and we don't follow the plan, then we would surely lose anyways | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 06:32 GMT
#1618
On May 21 2012 15:19 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Why do you think EchelonTee is town exactly? Why would you ask me that question, and what does this have to do with the plan? You know, you can comment on it as well. You also seem to completely ignore sandro's flip and its repercussions. I remember you saying that ET and someone else would both be Harimoto, ONLY because of voting patterns. However I also remember you thinking sandro was Yokoya, so surely your reads would change by now, considering you ONLY used voting patterns to determine them, right? But well, I think you are scum Wiggles, so it doesn't matter actually matter what you vote. Although please vote NO to follow the plan so we can end the game earlier. For people that still ask me "Why do you think ET is town? bla bla bla bla". ET was part of our plans since Day 4 and has been in the loop ever since. He knew about every plan since then. He knew the plans when chaoser was lynched, the plans when Palmar got lynched and the one where sandroba got lynched. He never tried to stop those, so unless you say he just bussed all his teammates since Day 4 to win solo or something he's town. He is clear with his reads ever since the game started as well, and if you want to take meta into account, he seems to care about the game and is not acting to his scum meta at all (for instance, check SoaF). Now that we are over that, if any of you want to seriously consider MZ or ET as scum, then make a convincing case other than "oh he voted opposite sandroba/chaoser one day". If not, then you should have no qualms over following this plan. Even if you still think MZ/ET is scum, then still follow the plan and we'll deal with that once we get to D9. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 20:33 GMT
#1625
If scum have KP, then gonzaw is scum Great reasoning there. If scum had any KP left, then they would have used it yesterday when they knew they would surely lose. They didn't so they very likely have no KP left at all. And I don't know wtf that "BC's team shot Foolishness" assertion is. Yeah most likely you are Yokoya and actually shot Foolishness yourself. Also, Meapak is right, I think you FoSed all of me/ET/MZ at some point. No townie would settle for a draw Wait...didn't you think Wiggles is scum? If that's the case, then how can we ever get into the "2 of the trio are scum" scenario that supposedly is the one we would get a draw in? If this is true it means that chaoser and gonzaw both voted the same the day after BC was lynched. I find that unlikely but given how much Foolishness talked with gonzaw about mafia votes I can't rule it out. So you FoS me out of nowhere with justifying it with some bullshit speculation, and then you actually say you find it unlikely I'm scumbuddies with chaoser? Yet you keep FoSing me? Also, why are you convinced I'm Yokoya and not Harimoto for instance? lol Glad you decided to follow the plan though. @Wiggles: Those "reasonings" you are talking about have been mentioned over and over again for the past 3 or so days. And only ET and MZ are the ones required to know them by now. Just follow the plan Wiggles. See? Even Katina will follow it. If sloosh follows it, then you+Katina will be in the majority, or there will be a draw. The only way the game can continue is if you follow it, so just do so. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 21 2012 23:02 GMT
#1627
As I said it makes the most sense that you are the mafia, not ET or Meapak. No, initially you said that ET made sense as Yokoya and MZ made sense as Harimoto. Now all of a sudden I make sense as Yokoya and Wiggles as scum (I guess you think he's Harimoto then). What made you change your mind like that? Oh I know, it was because I made a plan that would kill you Why are we not just killing Wiggles today? We WILL kill Wiggles today. The question is: why shouldn't we kill you in the process? While the most of what you've done has been pro town, this plan is not pro town at all. It's pushing a mafia agenda. Right, I'm a scum that everything he did in the whole game was "pro-town"; yet now that I want to kill you I'm suddenly pushing a mafia agenda. Makes perfect sense. You still haven't addressed what the "No townie would settle for a draw" part has any bearing at all if you think that scenario is impossible (since you think Wiggles is scum). I do want to end this game as quickly as possible because it's becoming boring and tiring. It's been like 1 week where almost nothing happened other than flips and people following plans. If scum don't want to surrender themselves then we'll just force them to. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 22 2012 04:40 GMT
#1631
You know what to do people. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 22 2012 19:08 GMT
#1633
On May 23 2012 03:53 Katina wrote: We don't know how scum KP works. If us 3 die as planned and there's still a mafia alive it could be gg I am very sure MZ and ET are town, so I don't care how scum KP works and if there is some "hidden" KP like you stated, since we win either way. If we just kill Wiggles and let things go another day then there's no risk of mafia KP interferring You just said there could be "hidden" KP. That KP could strike us after we single-handily lynch Wiggles, right? That would put us in a 3-1 situation, which is MYLO if there is another "hidden" KP. Do you seriously think that's better than this then? Of course if we lynch Wiggles and this "hidden" KP strikes me/ET/MZ, you'll just FoS sloosh or one of us and try to survive one more lynch This plan makes no sense in regards to the other plan. Why didn't we do this yesterday? Wiggles, myself, and sandroba were all in the majority. Why didn't you advocate killing all of us yesterday? You claimed that we had time and there was no sense taking risks. Now you want to take a huge risk. Are you kidding me? I talked with MZ about it, and I was thinking about trying to kill all of you guys on Day 7, but we couldn't since we believed there were still 2 Harimotos other than sandroba left. Those 2 could easily give votes to each other to save themselves, and forcing a 3-2-1 or 3-2 situation with 2 scum from the same team is dangerous. I'm going to uni in a few minutes and be back 1-2 hours before the deadline, so everybody vote accordingly until then. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 01:28 GMT
#1641
You can't say anything like "The plan is inconsistent with your circle" because you know shit about our circle. ...but when tomorrow rolls around you have to kill gonzaw You better not make any "tomorrow" happening and follow the plan. Seriously, if one of you scum decides to fuck with us to prolong the game even further I'll rage. You can end the game right now, so we can get to the juicy stuff of Post-Game discussion, and analyzing our play, etc, instead of having to wait 72 more hours (or even more). | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 02:33 GMT
#1643
On May 23 2012 10:49 Katina wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: Katina, I can't take you seriously if your only reason for thinking I'm scum is "He made the plan for today". You can't say anything like "The plan is inconsistent with your circle" because you know shit about our circle. ...but when tomorrow rolls around you have to kill gonzaw You better not make any "tomorrow" happening and follow the plan. Seriously, if one of you scum decides to fuck with us to prolong the game even further I'll rage. You can end the game right now, so we can get to the juicy stuff of Post-Game discussion, and analyzing our play, etc, instead of having to wait 72 more hours (or even more). I'm only following the plan to make the rest of these people realize you're mafia a bit faster. When ET and/or Meapak realizes I've been right this whole time I will enjoy watching you flail around like a magikarp! It's also lovely how you continue to ignore my arguments about your plan and instead counter with "lol no you mafia!" Your "arguments" about my plan are: -I'm scum -I have some "hidden" KP that can only be used in 2 NOT consecutive nights, and I will win tonight You could as easily say: -sloosh is scum -He's unlynchable, and when he's lynched he can kill 3 players -He'll win tonight You are just making random accusations only backed up with random speculation (which even you admitted were just "speculation"). There's nothing to counter, you didn't make any analysis whatsoever. Also, let's not forget this little gem, or "argument" of yours: 3rd party shot syllogism LOL Anyways, Protact, you better make the post soon today, if not you'll give me carpal-tunnel-syndrome for making me press F5 for 1 hour or so | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 03:14 GMT
#1646
| ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 03:16 GMT
#1647
What the fuck is going on in this game? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 03:54 GMT
#1649
If Katina was right and there is some "hidden KP", then it will be 1-1-1 tomorrow and it's basically a draw. If scum don't have any KP then it's 2-1-1, and it's unlikely we can get both scum lynched, specially if they somehow work together. For fucks sake. *sigh* I'll go get some sleep first though, this is fucking my mind too much right now. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 15:25 GMT
#1657
I need to contact the other townie first though | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 23 2012 19:17 GMT
#1661
On May 24 2012 03:47 slOosh wrote: Bahaha did not see this one coming. Wow, katina really pulling through for me. Sorry I thought you were scum. But I thought Mr. Wiggles was scum too, so now I'm really .... woah. Hahaha. I guess my initial reservations of the trio weren't unfounded. Just didn't expect two members in it. And gonzaw you just called me scum? Yes I did. I told MZ before the day ended that I was paranoid about you. See, MZ wanted to give 5 votes to you to save you and let Katina and Wiggles die alone. Then it hit me....perhaps you were playing so "selflessly" just so we could do something like that. If everybody thought Wiggles and Katina were scum, by extension everybody would think you are town. Therefore it would be more likely you'd receive at least some votes to get Wiggles and Katina to die alone. I knew that was a possibility, which is why I told Meapak to just follow the plan like it was. It seemed to work for you since Katina saved you (thank you Katina, Cephiro #2 at this point). On May 24 2012 03:52 slOosh wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2012 16:32 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Greetings fellow players. It is mathematically impossible for town to win. Even if scum doesn't have any KP, tomorrow will be a 2v2 situation. The two final scum can claim (or perhaps they already are in contact) and force the town into an unwinnable situation. Here's how. Both scum simply vote opposite each other, it'll only work once but they may get lucky and have both townies vote the same way. In this case there will be 3 in the majority. In this case both townies are dead along with one scum, leaving the other team victorious. However, if it doesn't work the first time then the game will be caught in a perpetual round A scenario with the two townies and the two scum voting opposite of each other. This is what's going to happen with no night kills. If there are night kills then scum can just have a draw between themselves by claiming now and coordinating hits. I again ask that the night be sped up, if the hosts aren't declaring a draw now that makes me think that scum has KP left. Again, town can't win without one of the scum teams quitting which in my book is an unwinnable situation. Sure it's possible. Actually, this is freakishly like the actual liar game situation. And here is how it goes. I am voting yes to whatever the question will be. Therefore, you are all auto prisoner scenario. And I will continue to vote yes forever. And then its a draw ... yea Meapak is right. Strange - even if you were able to correctly deduce the last scum members you are not guaranteed a win, or even a draw. Nice scumslip there. You are wrong about something: In Game 2 of the manga, there were 4 different factions Each player wanted to win by himself, which is why the situation was a "stalemate" (at least initially and what Akiyama made everybody think so). Right now there are 2 different one-man factions that want to do exaclty that to win (both scum teams). ...however, this is a two-man faction left: Town. Remember how Akiyama won that game? He teamed up with another dude and Akiyama won because of that. It's the same here, since town has 2 members left, we can win only if both townies work each other just like in the manga (or similar). I had a similar plan like that, but I need to contact the townie to implement it better and discuss ways to fool scum, but I'm paranoid as fuck right now and I don't really trust anyone from ET/MZ, even if I have some reservations about them. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 24 2012 01:13 GMT
#1663
Katina put her 5 votes on scum and saved him. Had she not we would be 2-1 right now and have a better chance of lynching the single remaining scum tomorrow. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 24 2012 03:04 GMT
#1666
-Yokoya | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 03:36 GMT
#1688
On May 25 2012 12:30 chaoser wrote: Lol. Arrogance ftl. Harimoto team and my team have been in contact for a long time. Hubris indeed lost this game for town. Syllo's complete trust of Palmar and then town's complete trust in gonzaw and ET even though both were really scummy (especially ET, I called the whole harimoto team out and no one cared). popping popcorn was fun though lol. Hey! > : ( lol, hubris indeed. EDIT: Hubris and insane amounts of paranoia, at least in my case | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 03:39 GMT
#1690
(maybe sloosh and ET voted in such a way that sloosh was in the minority as scum) Also, people just ignore most of the things I'm saying in the scum QT, at least from Night 7 onwards >_> (I was kind of crazy you see, kind of like I was in the Obs QT of LIII) EDIT: Wait....did you 2 REALLY vote both NO? EDIT2: I will also lol if Ver just made a mistake before (in the "Active List of Games thread") and the game actually goes on | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 03:48 GMT
#1692
I thought that was so obvious (telling scum what you will vote in LYLO? Really?) that you were making a hidden scheme to actually vote YES in the end and see who of ET/sloosh lied about their votes. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 03:56 GMT
#1695
On May 25 2012 12:51 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Show nested quote + On May 25 2012 12:48 gonzaw wrote: Ehm...why would a townie immediately vote in LYLO and not wait until the end? What if for instance someone just claimed scum in the thread after you voted? I thought that was so obvious (telling scum what you will vote in LYLO? Really?) that you were making a hidden scheme to actually vote YES in the end and see who of ET/sloosh lied about their votes. I highly doubt someone would have claimed at that point, no reason. Anyway I read some of the thread and the filters several times and came to the conclusion that ET was town and sloosh was scum. I then voted no to put sloosh in the majority which, assuming sloosh told the truth, won the game for ET. And at this point in the game, making a plan and voting yes wouldn't matter because there's no chance to punish the guilty party. Besides, they could have been doing the same thing as I was. Why the hurry? If you were active right now before the deadline, you could have waited until now to vote. Anything could have happened, maybe you would have an epiphany of who was scum (like you say you actually did). Also, whatever conclusion you arrive to...you don't tell scum what you voted, like you just don't. You just PM your town read and tell him what you'll vote in secret, or better yet just keep it to yourself if you have doubts about it. You do know that saying "I'm voting NO to get sloosh into majority" in the thread could easily get him to vote YES if he was scum right? (you can still lie about saying "I already voted"...I certainly did in this game). EDIT: On May 25 2012 12:54 chaoser wrote: Mafia had only 3 KP per team. We linked up night 3 to make our kills most effective and then both teams saved their last KP for the endgame. GG at Ver for putting that pickture of yokoya and harimoto making an alliance after I told him the two teams were working together to take down town lol I do think scum KP was way too underpowered. Like...at some point there were like 7 or 8 people alive with 3-4 scum alive yet the game ended 5 days later. It just made the game way too long. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 04:13 GMT
#1697
However, I didn't shoot because of some reasons:
I thought I would lose no matter what because I was kind of sure the other guy would shoot me, so hey at least town and the other guy could prove who deserved to win most in a 2-1 LYLO rather than us handing town the win in a silver plate. (I was secretly hoping the other guy would be a good sport and not shoot me though >_> ) Although, I certainly did some fucked up things last day which may have convinced ET I was scum >_> My brain farted at that point, I was actually wanting to PM you about some things and instead PMed ET about them, were I basically told him "Hey, I'm Yokoya!" (dunno why, maybe because I just wanted to PM anyone about them >_> ), but you never returned my PMs EDIT: Not mentioning me fucking up the "plan" thing from Day 8 >_> One of sloosh/Katina/Wiggles were supposed to be Harimoto, which is the only reason I made it in the first place (obviously I fucked that up big time, even if Katina had just followed the plan along it would have been 1-1-1) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 04:24 GMT
#1699
EDIT: Also no I checked with Protact and nobody could draw. I guess a mass surrender could have worked though? I dunno | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 05:02 GMT
#1703
Analysis Round A was way too disorganized, with no coherent discussion or vote coordination. Except for the Foolishness group. Foolishness had a plan to have everyone in his group (Foolishness/gonzaw/ET/Katina/wbg) all vote one way so that if they ended up in the minority, they could control the lynch, and if they ended up in the majority, they could circle vote each other. Hehe that was actually me My PM to Foo' Hey dude, I have a new plan for this Round A of voting, I think it may work better than the other one: We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town. We tell each of them this plan The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum What do you think? I was planning on telling ET too, I've been PMing him and I'm fairly sure he's town. After that I thought about wbg too perhaps, I think he's town too, but we can decide that later. The other option is doing a half YES half NO vote so some of us are guaranteed to be in the minority, while the others that are in the majority will receive votes from those in the minority, etc. Having everybody RNG votes this Round A will be a chaos, I'm sure of it BC had already voted NO by that point, so I desperately wanted everybody to vote YES so I made that plan (well, maybe you mention this in the next part of that analysis, but I've not read all of it yet >_> ) EDIT: Silly me you guys already have seen the scum QT so you already know about that >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 05:28 GMT
#1704
I feel that if Sheth had just made a proper case, linking together Gonzaw quotes from his games as mafia/town and this game, he could've not only gotten him lynched early (once under more scrutiny, it would've been harder for Gonzaw to act as he did for so long. That type of style is much harder if you are under a lot of constant pressure), but also relieved suspicion on himself. I don't know what type of "proper case" you are referring to here, but I doubt Sheth could have gotten enough dirt on me, even if he posted "quotes" from other games. I had Foolishness' and wbg's almost 100% support by that point (well, except when Foo' was dead), and syllo's support for a time, at least until he suspected me being Yokoya (and I'm glad we killed him that night ). There were a lot of moves from me that in hindsight (after BC and chaoser died) should have been suspicious as fuck, because I was basically saying "Fuck it I'll even out myself a little bit if it means saving BC/chaoser, I can always shrug the suspicions off later" and trying to make risky wild plans and shit to get them saved (because of Cephiro and other people some of them utterly failed though ) I'll just post all my meaningful PM convos with people instead (in the next post) A lot of people felt Gonzaw was innocent all game. While his posts did a good job of painting himself as a try-hard townie, he did have holes and inconsistencies if you looked closely (I bet nobody did). For example, Gonzaw actually did out himself and Chaoser indirectly by treating chaoser differently in his post than anyone else.On four other people he throws around a lot of doubt and suspicion on them. Then suddenly when addressing chaoser he switches to more of a pleading town, as if trying to 'give him a chance.' Why? Gee I wonder...Those contradictions exist! Look for them! Wow, I never actually considered I did that! | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 05:35 GMT
#1705
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdE1yVVlDa1l5Yjk0M3lRbmpLQ1RoOFE#gid=0 | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 05:46 GMT
#1706
+ Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A Foolishness] + Original Message from Foolishness myself, sandroba, wherebugsgo, syllogism, Radfield, Meapak, chaoser, and Wiggles were all in the game. There were a handful of other well known players in the game as well. It wasn't embarrassing for them. As I said I've done it before. Since it was planned out, I inserted myself into a position so that the other mafia families thought I was mafia. From their perspective it made total sense that I was a head of a family. Since the day is nearing half over we should concentrate on our mafia reads and leave the planning for night time. I really want to make sure we don't end up with 5 people dead at the end of day 1. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Lol really? Were they experienced players or not? lol how embarrassing for them Also okay, I'm voting NO then. Actually I'm not that suspicious of VE. He did the same "overconfident guy that thought he found a scumslip on D1" thing on LIII against me (both of us were town). I can see him doing that as town. Plus he seems overconfident and shit, unlike his scum play in LI. I am suspicious of wbg, and of Cephiro and chaoser (check my post) I'm kind of suspicious to the players that behemently oppose plans. Like BC, chaoser, Cephiro, Meapak, and some other people. As in, the people that behemently oppose other plans (specially the ones that are actually good), but don't do anything else and just complain and shit. I didn't read BC's or Meapak's filter though, but I'm kind of lazy to manually search for their posts so I'll wait until we are given a filter list Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: Yeah no problem. I'll try to keep things that are just relevant to you in the PMs and anything else in the thread. There are issues with round A when there are fewer people alive. I'm not saying we out 6 scum instantly (however badass it would be of us), I'm saying we try to control the voting as best we can by coordinating the mafia so that we get as many of the mafia in the majority as possible. About the whole "pretending to be mafia" thing, I guarantee you that if done right the scum will believe me. I've done it before. You can ask wherebugsgo about it because he was on my fake mafia team in PYP:Interesting. Before I died I had infiltrated one of the mafia teams and they thought I was the leader of one of the other factions (there were 3 mafia factions that game). I managed to get enough information out of them to narrow down the possible members of their team. Yes, let me restate that this might not work, or that it might not even be needed (as you said town might end up dominating the game anyways). I'm just accounting for possibilities and planning for the long term. If we're both alive at the time and in a position where it might be necessary then we should take action. Okay, I shall vote NO as well then. Tomorrow we should split our votes if we're both alive. Since we're already at this point in our conversation, I don't see the need to be hiding anything from each other. So if you ever have anything to ask me (that can't be asked in thread of course) just feel free. Even if we don't decide to do anything like contact the other mafia teams we should still be open about any plans we have. And as I said we should keep the idea of cycling in mind as the game goes on. I'm suspicious of VE, and a little bit of wherebugsgo. If BC and sandroba continue to be inactive then they are probably mafia. I'm certain that Katina, Mr. Wiggles, EchelonTee, and Ace are all town. Original Message From gonzaw: Yes, but just knowing who scum is won't give them any info about it. Imagine you use the voting cycle patterns and find both scum teams (which is what you said we would do with this plan). What do you do next? Don't say a thing. Let Round A happen, and if any of those scum end up in the majority, then make cases against them and get them lynched. The next day do the same thing, let Round A happen, and if any of those scum you found are in the majority make cases against them. You don't need to make a gigantic post in the thread and out all 6 scum, in that case you are correct we can't get all of them instantly. Here's the thing about the "pretending to be mafia": ...no sane scum will believe you. What scum will believe that the other scum team is trying to contact them? Scum teams are of opposite factions and win independently. Unless town is coasting to a certain victory, scum won't negotiate with each other at all, specially by claiming to each other. What happens if town is indeed coasting to a certain victory? Then why do we need this gambit after all? We will certainly win without it. Also, we don't know what scum are doing. Maybe like I said scum already found each other (maybe because of a DT role, or just sheer analysis), and they will instantly see through your lie when you claim to them. There aren't noobs in this game, I assume each scum team will have someone competent enough in them so they will notice. About the votes: I was planning on following Palmar's strategy. Yes, you may say it's because he "pardoned" me, but I agree that we need that system and put the towniest people in the minority, and we can't do that if you and me go behind their backs and vote differently. We will never be able to implement anything at all if that happens, so I'd prefer if you and me vote the same NO. Even if we come up in the majority, we can get some votes on us so it's no problem. Actually, I think most scum (from both sides) will vote NO as well. Like, 2 scum from Team 1 vote NO, and 2 scum from Team 2 vote NO as well. Adding that to the 5 of us pardoned (if all 5 of us are town), plus some stubborn townies that will vote NO, it will be very likely the NO will be in the majority. However, it's likely scum PLUS the 5 of us will be in the majority. In this case, we can vote for each other and those townies that voted NO, and let the scum that voted NO die. Even in that case I think it's fine, but most of all I want some cooperation and to follow some kind of plan. Also, what do you think about my "People vote who they want in the majority on Round A" plan? Post it in the thread if you don't mind. If you have any questions about my reads or thoughts about players, etc, don't hesitate to ask me, but please do it in the thread. I hate to have 10 different players ask me the same thing via PMs and having to waste time responding to each of them, instead of just posting it once in the thread. (oh yeah sorry for the wall of text ) Original Message From Foolishness: There are two stages to this game. Even if I could tell you for sure that these people are mafia, we still need to ensure that we get them in the majority otherwise we cannot kill them. That's where we fake to be one of the mafia teams. Make each of the mafia teams think that we are the other team. We try to organize getting as many members in the minority as possible, except we'll do it in a way to rig it so that the mafia are in the majority instead. As I said it's risky and has low success rate cause you and I are both unlikely to survive that long (plus if we get a third to help us). Yes we will have to hope that neither of us is mafia (I don't think you are that's why I reached out to you). Also, I don't find it likely the mafia will actually think up this plan since they will have their own concerns to worry about. It's also questionable whether any of the mafia families will actually try to reach out to the other family or not. But as you said, for now we should just scumhunt and not worry about the round A results (which is what I've been saying in the thread). The results from round A will be random that I'm sure we can hit a scum if we just do enough analysis. When there are less people alive though then things get tricky, which is why I think we should find some way to work together on this. At the very least, we should keep in mind that idea about cycling over the course of the game. I really think there is potential to analyze the voting patterns and get a lot of information out of them. Anyways, if you want to move somewhat forward with this idea, you can tell me what you are voting and I will vote the opposite of you. Original Message From gonzaw: Hmm, this seems kind of weird and I seem to find quite a few flaws in it Here: As long as the game goes on long enough (yes I realize that's a big what-if) it should be easy to piece together the information to find a mafia family Just with this, it seems that you alone can figure out the 2 scum teams by D3-D4, without the need of 2 other players. What if I'm scum, or the other player you bring in is scum? Surely scum will change their tactics so you don't find them, and you won't be able to correctly identify those teams By pretending to be a mafia family, we can reach out to both families and attempt to work together with them and coordinate the votes for round A Why would you do this? If you find both mafia families...you out them in the thread and we let town know who they are. If you fear those scum may tamper the Round A votes, then you don't mention it until it's Round B and you out them at that point. Why would you negotiate with scum? So you can trick them into being in Round B at the same time or something? If that's your plan, then what makes you think they won't see right through it? What if scum figure out who the other scumteam is (maybe by using the same method you described), and then they see some other random guy telling them "Hey lol we are the other scum team!". I like what you said about the voting patterns though, but I think just not taking them into account, and instead scumhunt and having scum be in the majority and townies in the minority will be good for now. You seem to concur with this as well from what I've read in the thread. Anyways, I kind of agree with Palmars plan, but I don't like that the power rests only on him, even if he's town. I think I came up with something better, so comment on it if possible. Original Message From Foolishness: I'd be fine with your plan; don't know how you plan to get everyone else to go along with it. At least it's better than what Palmar is doing (even though he is probably town). You got 3 people in a mafia family: X, Y, and Z. How do you collectively vote during round A? Having all three of your members vote the same on the question is clearly a bad idea as it only strengthens your chance of being in the majority. So what do you do instead? Split it up 2 and 1. Now you can go about this split in two ways. Have the same 2 people always vote together, or cycle through the possibilities. I don't find it likely that a team will have 2 people always vote together so I think the cycling is what will happen. Thus we can expect the following to occur Day 1: X and Y vote yes Z vote no Day 2: X and Z vote yes Y vote no Day 3: Y and Z vote yes X vote no ... As long as the game goes on long enough (yes I realize that's a big what-if) it should be easy to piece together the information to find a mafia family. Keep in mind both families will be doing this. What does this mean straight up? If 2 people are always voting together you can be relatively sure they are not on the same mafia family. That is a fact I think is exploitable for the town. What do I want to accomplish? I want us two to get a third person we think is town and enact this plan ourselves. That is, we pretend to be a mafia family and agree to vote like one. Once day 3 is half over, I think we should have enough to get an idea of who is mafia and what the families look like. By pretending to be a mafia family, we can reach out to both families and attempt to work together with them and coordinate the votes for round A. I can do all the dirty work and keep you and our third member safe when it comes to this (if that makes you feel any better about the plan). As I said there are some obvious concerns here, as this requires us to all survive to day 3 (and maybe day 4), but I think there is potential. If you can get a bunch of mafia into the majority you can kill them all. In reality the town only needs one day to win. All we have to do is coordinate our votes. If it makes you feel any better you can choose which answer you want to vote for yourself and me. Original Message From gonzaw: So what do you actually think about my plan? (post it in the thread if you don't mind, I hate discussing things in PMsthat can easily be said in the thread ) I think my plan is kind of solid for the moment, as long as every townie complies. If only scum choose not to follow it then we catch them easily. If you have anything better then I'm all ears. But are you sure it won't be better to post it in the thread? I guess you sent this to other players as well (or you plan to send), so what will you accomplish with having control over a small group of players? That won't let you control what other players vote, so you can't really decide who is in the minority/majority. Also, I read the manga, so don't you go try that "We have a group of N people, and N/2 vote YES and N/2 vote NO" and try and form different groups >_> (although I guess it's a given everybody knows the strategies in them ) Original Message From Foolishness: This is being written to you because I was intrigued by one of your posts in the thread. You say you want to create some sort of plan for the Minority Voting. You know as well as I do (even if you don't want to admit it) that round A is going to be a clusterfuck of votes. In fact, it will be a clusterfuck at least the first time and probably tomorrow as well. It will take some hard planning to actually get anything accomplished by organizing the round A votes. I have a plan though. It is by no means beautiful. In fact it is incredibly risky and is long-term, with the goal being to take control day 3 or day 4 of the votes. Obviously I cannot do this on my own. Thus I am reaching out to you in the hopes we can get something accomplished together. If you are interested, you know how to reach me. + Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A ET] + Original message by EchelonTee Glad you're back, I was about to call you out xp I'll continue this in thread. It's taking me a while maintaining PM contacts while combing the thread itself. I'll post some thoughts but I think Sheth is scum; I don't want to post a full case on him though; I prefer to prod scum until it becomes more and more obvious that they are scummy. In large contrast to your style Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: Do you still think Cephiro is scum? I felt that he was scummy in some ways and wouldn't mind if he died, but people's opinions are mixed. More so, I'm suspicious about Sheth, but I don't know his play style, which is why I am PMing you. I find it weird that he was like "4 votes on cephiro kk" without previously ever mentioning cephiro. Does Sheth usually do things without explaining them, or is he being overly lurky? Yes, I still think Cephiro is scum (read my new post). He's trolling people, acting like he's some master mafia liar or something, not being transparent, not giving reasoning or reads, etc. I don't see why he would do that as town. I still don't know why people ignore him either. Like, nobody posts thoughts about him or anything, or just say "I'll vote Cephiro" without even addressing the case I made or the whole discussion that took place. I don't know about Sheth either, I think this is the first time I've played with him since Newbie II (my first game). I've observed games and he acts like this though, is overly lurky, kind of wishy-washy, etc; your typical "anti-town townie". I don't know why the fuck he'd give Cephiro 4 votes though, and again just saying he thinks he's town because of "meta".....considering it's more likely he'd think he's scum because of meta and not the other way round. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: also, what do you think of Sandroba? He's on the chopping block; I haven't seen any real cases on him yet though. lol@the subject line, liar xp Yeah read my new post It would be great if you posted your opinion on Ceph/Sheth/etc in the thread too. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, I won't ignore them. But most people here like play 90% of the game in PMs. They talk to EVERYBODY and spend hours and hours conversing and shit. That's very hard to follow and I don't like it at all, specially since most of the discussion done in PMs can be easily done in the thread for everyone to see (for instance asking for reads or thoughts, etc). PMs have only 1 advantage, which is that they are private. So they should only be used when something private should be discussed. If something important like that comes up, then yeah I'll use them, but in the meantime I'll stick to the thread. Also lol when I first looked at the PM, I thought you were calling me a liar and I was like "wtf?" Original Message From EchelonTee: hi I also hate PM games, but they're a pretty strong town tool. I don't recommend you ignore them ^^ + Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A (and more I think) Cephiro] + Original Message by Cephiro You're too stubborn for your own good, accept the fact that you can be wrong. I'll give you this one time short and simple: YOU DO NOT KNOW ME All your bullshit is based on that you have out-metagamed me, you think you know how I play as town when all you have seen is ONE SINGLE PITIFUL FORUM GAME. Do me a favour and stop talking to and/or about me until you learn that you can't base your thoughts on meta purely. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: How the hell are they "wrong reasons"? Not contributing, adding fuel to the fire by tunneling me, avoiding giving reads and playing completely different as you do when town are "wrong reasons"'. I can't also believe that you think I'm either "a very very very bad town or scum". Again, exactly the same as the Toad incident. He just said "You are tunneling me so much you have to be scum" and that's it, 0 reasoning. If you think I'm scum because of some reasons, then post them, but honestly saying "You are so bad that you have to be scum" are even "worse" reasons than the ones I have. And no, I don't think you would act like this as town. I've seen my share of "vet" players just troll like this around as scum and you are acting just like it apparently. You are not Bill Murray, you are not Kenpachi, you are not Chezinu. Why? Because you didn't do this in previous games you've played I have to say that you are a little bit too aggressive, and I thought that would make you seem townie at first, but all these recent bullshit completely override that. I think you are playing just like Toad in LI, and I still think you are scum, so do whatever you want and call me scum 10 times without posting reasonings or whatever, I don't care. Although I do learned from that game that I shouldn't clog up the thread bickering against that type of players, so I'll do my best to just convince others you are scum and stop arguing with you. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Cephiro: I certainly understand why you are suspicious. But you're backing up your suspicions with the wrong reasons. You can't seriously tell me you can't understand a townie motive for my way of playing currently? (Not to mention you do not have the knowledge of my PM history.) Either you are scum or then you're playing horribly bad town. And in all honesty, I know you can do mistakes but even you shouldn't play town that badly, which leads me to think you are scum that is clogging up the thread by repeating the same things over and over, and trying to make me lose my credibility. I mean, it's win-win for you in that case. Even if you lose your credibility also, you don't really need it if you have stronger team members that take care of that part. As long as you are alive, which seems to be happening as people are ignoring you due to your clogging quite effectively, you have nothing to worry about. And your gains are making a townie lose credibility, or even get him lynched. I see much more motive for your actions from a scum than a town perspective. Original Message From gonzaw: What the...? Do you still think I'm scum? In that minority list of yours you said you would vote for me...? Dude, I just can't believe you don't get why me and other people are suspicious of you, it's just impossible for you not to figure that out. Original Message From Cephiro: Are you afraid you won't be able to make me look like a scum trying to clog up the thread when you're the one repeating the same questions over and over again? I think they've read enough of it to make up their opinion. If you want to continue convincing them that I'm scum, maybe you should try PMing people, it does wonders. As you can see in the thread, people don't really care to see more of this pointless back and forth. You can continue to pressure me by PM and try to make me "slip", and you can publish it for everyone to see. Just be careful you don't out yourself before achieving what you want. Original Message From gonzaw: No, that would waste lot of time, and I want input from other players. The point of me arguing all over is that I want other players to read it and put their opinion of it, like ET did a while ago. PMing with you and then releasing all the arguments in a bunch won't have the same effect. I want people to know what I'm thinking and to take a look at the points I'm making and the responses you make in real time. Original Message From Cephiro: You do realize that if you want the town to know all that we are talking about, you can just publish the PMs like you did earlier so you don't have to clog up the thread with your pointless jabs at me? Or then you can just PM them forward to all your town-reads. For all I care, do what you want. + Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round B wbg] + Original Message by wherebugsgo Yeah that's why I'm organizing with foolishness. If you saw my last post in the thread it's very possible VE is throwing a monkey wrench into the votes. I've talked to him a bit but not really that much. I'm going to try more today. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay. I was having second thoughts and thought that maybe sandro/VE could save each other and someone else random would die, like ET or Wiggles or something. About chaoser: I'm asking you if you talked to him in PMs and you discussed reads and stuff. I'm suspicious of him because of that, in the thread he doesn't seem to care about contributing reads at all and is just fixated with the plans. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: Well, everyone is doing their own thing it looks like because people think that their ideas are best. Foolishness and I are working to organize votes in such a way that VE and sandro can't be saved. In about 30 minutes I'll have comp access (on my phone ATM) and I'll put up a spreadsheet of claimed votes. As for chaoser if you believe he is scum then you've made the assertion and the burden of proof is on you, the accuser. I'm not going to go through his posts to say why he's town because that's, quite frankly, pointless. I had a slight suspicion of him earlier in the game but so far all the suspicions of him have been gut reads and not actually been founded in anything. If you want to make a case, feel free. Original Message From gonzaw: Can you tell me wtf is going on with that "plan" of yours? I see many people agreed with it, but most of them are spreading their votes (even the ones in the majority), and some in the majority are doing random things as well. Are you guys planning to only kill sandroba or kill someone else too? If so, are you sure someone like VE or sandroba himself can't fuck up that plan? For now I'm seeing random voting and that can lead to random things. Also, if you can post in the thread why you think chaoser is town I'd appreciate it. Has he been giving reads and stuff in PMs? Because I only see him ONLY discussing that plan of yours in the thread and not contributing anything else at all. + Show Spoiler [More D1 Round B wbg] + Original Message from wbg that's fine. you have the spreadsheet, correct? I think I'm going to post it in the thread in a few. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I'd really like if we could kill Cephiro too, but I guess we can't do it now. Anyways, it's getting close to the deadline and I don't want to get modkilled for not giving my votes. So tell me if it's okay and give a go at these votes: 2x Radfield 1x Wiggles 2x EchelonTee If one of them surpasses the 6 votes after that then I'll change them. It's also possible someone else votes sandroba to get him to 6 or even 7, so maybe we should put more votes on those players as well. + Show Spoiler [More D1 Round B wbg] + Original Message by gonzaw I liked that he wanted everybody to cooperate with the plans, and sounded sensible when saying so. I thought he was townie then, since I think scum would just try to oppose said plans at first. The tone of his posts made me think he was town too, and he seemed willing to take part in discussions as well at the time and seemed to care about the discussions themselves. ..I haven't seen too much of him lately though, and he hasn't really contributed any scum reads of his own, so that's kind of worrying. But still, I'd prefer if he lives for now, we don't need another Radfield lynch on D1 >_> Show nested quote + Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah, I know what you mean. What do you think of Radfield, by the way? Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Okay I'll wait. Of course I won't ACTUALLY send my votes until all this thing is set in stone and organized, I just want to have my votes ready so we can get this over with sooner. Original Message From wherebugsgo: wait on the votes for a few minutes. I'm pretty sure syllo gave votes to Radfield, but we need to find out for sure. Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so sandroba already has 5 votes from VE, so if we want him to be lynched alone, these would be the amount of votes other players would need to have 6 in them: Prplhz: 1 Cephiro: 2 Mr Wiggles: 3 Meapak_Ziphh: 2 Radfield: 5 Echelon Tee: 5 Liquid`Sheth: 6 Chaoser: 6 Sounds about right? I'll give Radfield, Wiggles and ET votes Something like this perhaps: Radfield: 2 votes Wiggles: 1 votes ET: 2 votes That way it cushions the amount of votes they will need to receive Original Message From wherebugsgo: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvRGXY4QJLzOdFVNSFpOalplM09oTjlkdUpBSWoweWc I'm going to hold off on putting it in the thread for a few hours. I want to see if I can get a bit more information out of some players. ATM only foolishness has this (other than me) + Show Spoiler [Day 1 Round A (I think) Foolishness] + Original Message by Foolishness Hi, yeah I was out for the evening so I was gone during the posting. No need to worry about me. I told Wiggles this as well but it seems to me that you and him and Cephiro are arguing over nothing. I'll take a closer look tomorrow to make sure but I really don't see what all the hubbub is about. I think it would be better to focus attention elsewhere. Personally I'd be happy with VE/sandroba dying. I'm skeptical about chaoser. I know I attacked him first but his reaction took me to thinking that he is town and that I'm mistaken. My case also hasn't garnered as much support as I thought it would. However lots of things don't add up. Right before day was half over he sent me this PM: Show nested quote + Original Message From chaoser: Hey, I was wondering what you thought of katina? can you pressure him a bit for me? This is the first thing he's sent me (I've never sent him anything either). I thought it was very odd that he would send this especially considering I was gunning for him earlier. I'm not quite sure what his goal was when he sent this to me. And why send it to me of all people? On the subject of Katina, yes I have been talking with her. I'm confident she is town. On what you noticed, she's usually very confident with her posting when she's town. In Arkham City she was mafia and there was a bit more hesitancy with her posts/accusations. Also her one post about mafia splitting 2-1 was pretty good. I haven't been talking to her about that so I'm assuming she figured it out on her own. I don't think a mafia would willingly reveal that sort of information to the town (hence I also think Ace is town). Anyways she's in the minority so this is not the proper time to worry about her. My idea goes along with what I've been saying in the thread. We as a town need to pick one or two people we want to kill. It's important we get a collective agreement on who (I realize this is incredibly difficult but bear with me). Once we have the people we want dead, we spread out votes on everyone else. Say we want to kill sandroba. That leaves 9 people we want to save. We have 90 votes to work with, so we have everyone spread out so that each 9 people get 10 votes. We do this in a way of spreading (that is, everyone will vote for 5 separate people instead of piling all 5 votes on one person). This way if someone tries to deviate to save sandroba (mafia or dumb townie or whatever) they will be unable to get enough votes to save him. I will post the above plan in the thread before I go to sleep now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, you've been absent these last few hours in the game, I was getting kind of worried. What do you think about Cephiro? And there's someone that caught my eye as well: What do you think about Katina? Have you PMed with her yet? She acts quite confident with her posts when there really isn't any need to, and I find that quite odd. Of course post in the thread if you can too, we need people to actually start posting in the thread and not on PM-land so this game isn't utterly destroyed by inactivity in the thread. And we need to come up with some kind of strategy for Round B voting as well. I PMed Radfield about it but he didn't have any plan for now. Do you have any ideas? + Show Spoiler [D1 Round B Foo'] + Original Message by Foolishness I honestly don't think he's mafia and would rather lynch elsewhere at the moment. However that's not to say I wouldn't mind him dead either =P Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Please post in the thread your thoughts about Cephiro I think I'm losing my mind here... + Show Spoiler [Night 1 Foolishness] + Original Message by Foolishness Yes, I think it's more likely coincidence. I asked bugs about it and he seemed to think so as well. Also doesn't seem likely that a scum team would have known how chaoser voted (since chaoser only PMed his votes to bugs and didn't post them in the thread). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, since I doubt Radfield PMed wbg/chaoser in the time he came back to the thread (and they told him prp had 3 votes), in which case they would call him out since he specifically said he thought prp had 6, then either it's a coincidence, or wbg/chaoser are scum with them too (and he was told in their scum QT). Seems kind of a stretch though. THere's also the possibility they are indeed scumbuddies, and wanted prp to be "safer" since maybe they thought 6 votes weren't enough to save a scumbuddy. But for now I doubt that, and would like to take it as a coincidence instead. Other than that I think everybody followed the spreadsheet though. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: That is what I meant. I didn't catch that Radfield thought he was taking prphlz to 9. Seems bugs actually did derp that up. It does seem too much of a coincidence, but would scum have caught that? Would they know where chaoser's votes actually where? Original Message From gonzaw: I think I saw the same thing with the votes, but I wanted to check. You mean Radfield and prplz right? As in, if Radfield hadn't voted prplz, prplz would have died right? (and Radfield too since he would have been modkilled). So him voting prplz all of a sudden would mean both are scum? Or am I missing something? However Radfield made this post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=30#583 He thought prplz had 6 votes in him, not actually 3, because the spreadsheet was wrong at the time, so he didn't know he was actually saving him, unless he was in direct contact with chaoser/wbg before, but since he got very late into the thread I doubt it. If this is what you mean, then it seems too much of a coincidence, that Radfield gives enough votes to prp to survive, even though supposedely prp was already safe by the values on the spreadsheet. But that's the point right? If both are scum, they would know prp was safe, so there wouldn't be a need to vote for him, right? Unless you meant someone else. + Show Spoiler [Day 2 Round A Foolishness] + Original Message by Foolishness It somewhat was part of my plan to contact other scumteams. I felt like I was being clear in the thread but it seems like I'm not. I am going to try to be more transparent in the thread then. Though I will say I'm not hard planning to claim scum to other scumteams this game; I'm more just leaving it open as an option (compared to my previous game where I planned it from day 1). I guess I get iffy about posting in the thread when I'm PMing a bunch of people. Kinda like a "well I just told so many people what I thought do I really need to post it in the thread? naahh" Right now my mind is thinking BC/Palmar as mafia. Need to think about this more though. It is late at the moment but I promise I will take the time to thoroughly look at Cephiro before the day ends (at the very least before the lynch, might not get to it tomorrow). I did promise you I would look at him so I shall do that. At the moment though I would say try not to clutter the thread up about Cephiro. I really don't think it will be possible to control the round A voting today (16 people is still a lot). So I'm hesitant to go with any plan to control who is in the minority/majority today (unless a bunch of people agree on it). I think it's just better to talk and pressure people and do analysis. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude, I'd really like a more complete analysis of Cephiro/Ace by you. I know you said "I don't think he's scum but wouldn't mind him to die" or some shit. But really, I want you to read these past few pages, read Cephiro's filter and tell me what you think. Like, I think Ace and him would be perfect Town Idiots in this setup...but it's impossible there are even TI in TL (I think they are banned or something), and both of them can't be trolling 3rd parties. Also, if you could make more cases, post more thoughts/etc in the thread it would be great. Since I've been PMing you I got the feeling you are town, but you seem very distant from the thread and not many people could realize that. Unless this is part of your plan to contact the other scumteams and pretending to be scum yourself >_> This was my attempt to get BC into the minority by having me/Foolishness/Katina/ET/wbg all vote YES: + Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with Foo'] + Original Message by Foolishness No problem. I'm in and out all day but I'm around enough to be able to coordinate something here. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I already PMed wbg, I'll PM ET then. I have a test right now and I'll be gone for 3-5 hours or so. If you guys are active before the deadline I'd suggest you don't vote yet so we can organize better when I come back. If not just organize yourselves and then tell me what happens when I come back, works either way. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: That's fine. I'm going to be semi busy today so you can ask them. If I need to do some convincing let me know. I've talked to bugs a lot so far and I think he feels the same way about Katina that I do. I don't think we'll have much of an issue working with bugs. wherebugsgo was also part of my fake mafia team from that game I was telling you about. We know how we both work. Original Message From gonzaw: I'll get wbg on it. I'm fairly sure ET is town. I could give you my PM logs with him, but I doubt that's necessary. About Katina: Hmm, I wouldn't mind her on the team. I don't strictly think she's town, because she's very hard to read, but I'm getting the same vibes of LI from her, and that's a good sign. However, if we get wbg/ET in this they need to agree with letting Katina in too, and I think that will be a little bit harder. Also, what answer should we choose? I was thinking YES, mainly to get some variety >_> Both of us already voted NO last time, voting NO again may seem a little weird for some people. Original Message From Foolishness: I'll agree to this plan. I would advocate as you that we get wherebugsgo in on it. First off we need to make sure we are in somewhat agreement about our reads as we don't want to be arguing amongst ourselves who we lynch. Quite a few people seem to think Cephiro is mafia now. Honestly I still don't know what to think but the few people who have told me this I trust to be town. If we are in a situation where a Cephiro lynch is possible or a good option I will get behind that. I trust your analysis of him as well. I have a town read on ET as well but I will need to make sure before I agree to him. As you would probably guess I would recommend Katina to be in on the plan as well. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude, I have a new plan for this Round A of voting, I think it may work better than the other one: We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town. We tell each of them this plan The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum What do you think? I was planning on telling ET too, I've been PMing him and I'm fairly sure he's town. After that I thought about wbg too perhaps, I think he's town too, but we can decide that later. The other option is doing a half YES half NO vote so some of us are guaranteed to be in the minority, while the others that are in the majority will receive votes from those in the minority, etc. Having everybody RNG votes this Round A will be a chaos, I'm sure of it + Show Spoiler [Day 2 Round A Plan talk with ET] + Original Message by ET Hmm, I have a feeling if that we all vote as a block, the likelihood of us ending up the majority is high. I have no problem with that since the plan says we will swap votes to each other, but it still stands that we want certain people to end up in the majority. I'm in; I'm confident you and Katina are town. WBG feels townie, but I remember him being a very crafty scum; I don't mind him being in on this though. TBH I'm not 100% confident in Foolishness, but he also had a slow start in Aperture, I suppose. Honestly I would want to add Mr. Wiggles to the plan (my most trusted town read), but too many people would be a problem. I'll PM Foolishness about it. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey ET. Nobody seems to care about my plan for Round A, so I tried to come up with something that could actually work, or at least that would be better than random voting. Here it is: We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town. We tell each of them this plan The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum Foolishness is already in, and I already PMed wbg about it. I think you are town, so I think we can create a little "town voting circle" like this to organize things better for Round B. I'm going out because I have a test, so if you have any questions PM Foolishness. Foolishness says he wants Katina on it too. I wouldn't mind, but if you have any objections PM him. I'll be back in 4-5 hours or so (like 2 hours before the deadline hits I think) But ET had to fuck it up (and wbg kind of): + Show Spoiler [Where ET fucked up my plan] + This is what I sent to Foolishness earlier: --------- Hey, gonzaw told me about the voting plan. Anything is better than random voting I suppose, though I feel that if there is a block of people voting one way, the likelihood of us ending up in the majority seems much higher than us being in the minority, just by probability ruling. Because the plan accounts for us being in the majority, though, if you're confident that scummy people will end up the majority I'm all for it. I trust gonzaw and Katina enough to be in on this. TBH you and WBG I'm not completely sold on, esp. since you guys (WBG especially) know how to play a crafty scum game, but gonzaw is very assured of you two. I would want Mr. Wiggles in on this; if our goal is for us to be in the majority, then I'll let him know about it, if you agree with my town read on him. Now that I think about it, if we want scummy people to end up in the majority, it might be a good idea for us to vote as a group where scummy people will end up voting. By pure WIFOM, I think that people who want to be in the minority will vote No (because it was the minority vote last time). If we all vote no, we will probably end up in the majority, and we can keep our insulated group alive and lynch whoever scummy remains. Unless the majority group somehow ends up being all townie towns (unlikely), this will allow us to consolidate votes on our group + whoever other pro-towns end up in the majority, while allowing for lynches on scummier people. In summary: -Plan is 4-6 of us vote No. -Presumption is that will put us in the majority, and that people who had wanted to avoid being majority are more likely to vote No. -We then spread votes out among ourselves so that we will not be lynched, will putting scrutiny on the remaining majority people. Does this sound ok to you? -------------- Thus, I have voted No. I didn't tell Wiggles about the plan. Katina is in, and I told Foolishness to tell WBG. Let's see how this goes. I might be back before deadline, but I'm unsure. + Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with wbg] + Original Message by wbg right, but the nature of the voting system means that the players with information benefit, since you can't change your votes. A certain number of votes will be locked by a given time, so all scum have to do is go around and find out a few votes and they know the general trend; they can then get themselves into the minority fairly easily. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, it's one way or the other. If our group is not large (4 or less players), then I think it's likely that our choice of voting will determine if we are in the majority or minority (if we were 7 players for instance, then we would always be in the majority I think). ET wanted to be in the majority for some reason and thus voted NO. I think we could have been in the minority if we voted YES. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: this is actually why I was against vote consolidation for the A phase. It's pretty dumb when if you just consolidate your votes you increase the chance of townies being the majority by a lot. It increases the chances that a 2/1 split for mafia will end up with 2 in the minority, too. Original Message From gonzaw: Meh, I wanted us to be in the minority so I wanted YES initially, but it still works. However, considering Palmar said he voted NO as well, and some others will too, it's likely the gap betwen majority/minority will be bigger than on D1. I don't know if that's good or bad, but whatever. Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah, I voted no. I think the majority is going to be no today. Original Message From gonzaw: Wait, what did you vote? Cause ET already voted NO, if you voted YES then it's pointless. *sigh* I think it would be better if all of us vote at the last minute in next days, because if not we'll encounter problems like this Original Message From wherebugsgo: Yeah I'm fine with that, but I've voted already. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey wbg. Since nobody seems to like my plan or even try to follow it, I tried to come up with a new one that is more likely to work: We pick a small group (4-5 players) of people we think are town. We tell each of them this plan The plan consists of all 4-5 of us voting the same answer, YES or NO If we all end up in the minority, then great we'll try and get scum from the majority lynched If we end up in the majority, then we swap votes between us (not all 5 though, in case we need to vote for someone else) so we are not in danger of getting lynched, and of course try to coordinate other people's votes to lynch scum I already PMed Foolishness about it. I was thinking of getting ET on it as well. I've been PMing with him, and taking that and his posts in the thread into account I'm fairly sure he's town. Foolishness said he wanted Katina on it as well. I wouldn't mind her since I don't really think she's scum and I trust Foolishness' read, but I don't know if you/ET would agree with it. + Show Spoiler [D2 Round A Plan talk with Foo'] + Original Message by Foolishness Okay. If we already set the plan then there is nothing we can do about it. I don't think it would be wise for us to switch over even if we knew all the votes as that makes us look mighty shady. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: So I got in touch with ET/wbg and they already voted NO. I guess that's what we are going for then, but we'll very likely go into the majority, and I think the gap between majority/minority will be very high if people keep voting NO. I don't know if that's good or bad for us though. I guess we vote NO then, I'll wait until right before the deadline before voting to see if something else happens. + Show Spoiler [Fake PM with chaoser :3] + Original Message by chaoser I think sandro and ET are scum together. I' m still suspicious of syllo and palmar, palmar did that whole "king me!" thing. There's no way he thought that would work and people would actually do it. and combined with syllo and his "lets normal vote and then give votes to everyone but the person we normal voted on in round b", they've just been putting out plans that 100% won't work. aside from ceph and WBG, no one has pmed me. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay dude, you seem keep ignoring me this game. What are your reads? Who do you think is scum? I've only seen you post about plans in the thread, and only said you thought Katina/sandro are scum like once. I thought that maybe you were PMing with a lot of people or something about your reads, but post them in the thread please. A lot of people seem to think you are town all of a sudden so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg] + Original Message from wbg yup, people being dumb means we can't kill who we want to kill. We just have to ensure that we're safe. When I read Sheth's post on cephiro I saw he said he wants more time to tell what Cephiro is. That could be a town motivation to keep him alive but it still bothers me that he gave him votes. w/e. It limits who we can kill, but I also don't like meapak saying we shouldn't give votes to prpl. Why is he dictating that so suddenly with no previous mention of him? Whatever. Thanks for that btw; I forgot LI. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: About ET: Yeah, check LI he was townie there: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046 About that Meapak claim: Ehmm, wtf? Did he claim Cephiro is blue or something? I don't buy that either. If Ceph/Meapak was blue they'd keep their mouths shut, and wouldn't specially tell you considering how much Cephiro "likes" you. Well, yeah deciding who to kill's gonna get pretty hard, that's why I'd suggest to just see what happens this day, but focus on getting the votes (or at least the claims) on us first, and then decide what to do next. How would you recommend doing a mass-killing? If we get all Cephiro/Meapak/BC (for instance) on 5 votes each (again, for instance), it takes 1 vote from meapak/wiggles saying "oh noes Ceph is town" to save Ceph/Meapak and kill BC (for instance); or 1 vote from someone randomly voting BC to save him and kill the other two. And again you won't know if it was his scumbuddy saving him, a scum saving someone not from his team to induce WIFOM, or a very stupid apathetic townie. Although, if we get ALL claimed votes, and various people reach the lowest place in votes, then scum can't really change their votes and contradict their own claims (that is really claiming scum), so I guess it can work then. In that case, we need a REALLY good organization so that can happen Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah I'll try not to fuck it up this time. I think it's going to be really hard to get exactly who we want lynched, but I'm fine with killing BC/cephiro/chaoser/meapak at this point. prpl I have a town read on and I need more time for ET, since his scum play is fairly good. Do you have a game that I can reference where ET is town? Also, I actually think mass-killing might be viable. Mafia have to kill each other as well as town, so even if we kill 2 townies with 2 scum the trade is favorable for us because the town-scum ratio is 2-1, and if two townies die at night the trade is even. Otherwise we may spend too much time going around in circles not killing scum, allowing townies to get picked off by the lynch mechanics. Meapak says Cephiro is "useful" to him in PMs and says something will happen in the next night. I honestly don't buy it, but that may be a reason to leave meapak (and, sadly) cephiro alive for another cycle. The only reason I think this is because it may just be a better idea to not allow anyone to vote BC, since BC is also pretty scummy at this point. When it gets down to it we might want to get BC to 5 votes, but to coordinate that we'd need to get everyone else above 5 votes too. Meh :/ pretty dumb. 30 votes from scum can really fuck this all up. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, are you going to make another spreadsheet for the votes? Anyways, there are 80 votes (16 players alive*5 votes) and 10 players in the majority. That means that a player is safe from the lynch with 9 votes. That means that these: EchelonTee Foolishness gonzaw Katina wherebugsgo ...need 9 votes each. I want to get Cephiro lynched, even if Sheth tells the truth (*sigh*). Ceph can only be saved with 4 more votes, so unless someone makes a very stupid move (like VE did) and gives 4 votes himself to Cephiro he'll stay below 9. The other lynches I'd discuss would be BC/prp/Meapak. BC is doing shit, and whenever he comes to the thread just complains to people and goes back being inactive. He's very likely scum, so getting him killed along Cephiro would be nice. I don't know about prp/Meapak though. I'm not too sure about both of them, prp because although he made very bad posts (like really bad ones) on D1, he's acting all "defeated" (saying "Oh sorry I played so bad guys I'll improve" and shit). Plus he fucked up his votes and voted people from the minority last Round B, I don't know if he'd do that as scum. Meapak is another one I'm not sure of. I had him as town on D1 but now he's acting way too weird, he's not doing shit, he's aggressive to anybody, being disruptive as hell, not contributing, etc. Either way, whoever of those we want to lynch, we need to give ourselves+Palmar 9 votes, so I guess we can start there. Basically I thought this: We "reserve" (as in, they are claimed votes that go in the spreadsheet) 3 votes from each of us to give to another one from our group (I give Katina 3 votes, Katina gives you 3 votes, you give ET 3 votes, etc). Then we encourage other players to vote for us until we reach 9 votes. That way each of us has 2 "free" votes we can use on Palmar/prp/Meapak/BC/Cephiro depending on what we decide to do with the lynch, and to avoid anybody doing some weird shit at the last moment by having the ability to quickly change our votes without doing the whole spreadsheet again. Sounds good? + Show Spoiler [More D2 Round B wbg] + Original Message by wbg Then our aim should be to dictate where the votes go, and if the players don't comply then we kill them. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I said I prefered having 3, or at least 4 votes in such "circle trade". That way, if for instance in the end Palmar has 4 votes and Cephiro 5, we can use our "spare" votes to lift Palmar and lynch Cephiro. If not then we can't do anything if all votes are already accounted for. Also, if not we will have all our votes spent and can't do anything else, and the lynch will be decided solely by other people and we won't have any say (and since I'm confident our group is town, it is scum who have more leverage to sway the lynch). Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: I assume we can get enough support to get all of us to around 8 votes at least. If we have to, we can use all 5 of our votes in a circle trade. In fact, I'm basically planning on that. In the majority then are these players who I'd be fine with killing: BC cephiro meapak Everyone else either looks town or is townie enough that I don't want to kill them today. BC lynch would be nice. + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B Foolishness] + Original Message from Foolishness I like your plan. You advocate Palmar is town and needs to be saved? I'd rather save prphlz than Palmar at this point. I'm iffy about Meapak right now as I told you. But I don't think we can garner enough support to get him lynched (and killing BC/Cephiro is strictly better at this point anyways). I don't think we should be worried about getting to 9, but to 8 instead. We can't control everyone however. We let bugs do his thing like he did yesterday. I will need to send my votes in 2-3 hours before the deadline because I will be going out (going to go PM bugs this right after I send this). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I'll talk to wbg and see if he'll make one of those spreadsheets again. Maybe we can do the same thing as D1 and try and get Cephiro lynched. We get everybody except him to 8 votes, and hope nobody gives him 4 more votes. Maybe we can put BC on 5 votes too, but having 2 players with the same votes is risky and anybody can choose to save one and kill the other. I don't know if we'll discuss a prp or a Meapak lynch though. I'm not too sure about prp either, because his posts were so bad it's not funny. However he fucked up by voting people from the minority, and I don't know if he'd fuck up like that as scum (intentionally or unintentionally). He isn't contributing either by now, even though he'd said he'd try and play better Either way, that means we'll need 9 votes on these (well, it's out "voting group"+Palmar): EchelonTee Foolishness gonzaw Katina Palmar wherebugsgo We can start arranging that for now. I'd suggest "reserving" (in the spreadsheet) 3 votes for each of us, and encouraging others to vote for us (and claim to us said votes so they go into the spreadsheet). That way we can reach 9 votes, but we can use our votes on others so we can determine who we lynch of prp/Cephiro/BC/Meapak and avoid any shenanigans. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Foolishness: Yes you can give me the biggest "I told ya so" dance if Cephiro flips mafia. I agree on Meapak as well. Day 1 I was calling him one of my strongest town reads. Now I just feel sort of bleh about him. I was also talking to wherebugsgo earlier today about Meapak and he said he's feeling iffy about him as well. I need to talk to bugs about Meapak. I'm trying to remember what he was like in the last mafia we played with him. My instinct says that slightly aggressive and pushy Meapak is scum Meapak. I think when he is town he is more modest and passively helpful. Original Message From gonzaw: Told you. We will need a lot of cooperation if we want to lynch Cephiro. I have the feeling Meapak will do something similar as well. There are 80 votes, and 10 candidates. That means players are safe with 9 votes. If Meapak or someone else gives Ceph even 4 votes we can't touch him. I still don't know what to think about Meapak. On D1 he seemed kind of enthusiastic to post, even though all he posted was just to oppose the plans. But after D1 Round B he just trolls, doesn't contribute, and is acting like an asshole. I don't know what to think of that, or why he changed his behaviour so much + Show Spoiler [D2 Katina] + Original Message from Katina I'm not sure what I think of him anymore. Just about everyone wants to kill him it would seem. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Great Hey, now that you are here, what do you think of Cephiro? (I don't remember if you mentioned him before) Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: I just sent my No vote as well. Original Message From gonzaw: You have to vote NO (apparently wbg and ET got too excited and sent their votes without discussing about it first >_> ) I just sent mine. Original Message From Katina: Yes, he told me about it. I'm about to send in my vote. Original Message From gonzaw: I dunno, I just got home from a test, so I guess I'm thinking about that now lol Anyways, are you in on the plan? I suppose Foolishness told you about it Original Message From Katina: Hi! What's on your mind sir? + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B slOosh] + Original Message from slOosh Mmm, makes sense. I'll start posting at night, as I'm in the process of some PM stuff, but then I'll have enough to move into the thread. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Posting reads in the thread isn't "dangerous" I think. I mean, in a normal game you post reads in the thread and games go on as normal, I don't see why this game should be a difference. Also the people you PM with and give reads to may be satisfied, but those that don't PM you don't, so you are basically alienating them. Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: I don't like Cephiro's anti-town attitude. Meapak I'm trying to figure out through PMs. I've been in contact with wbg about the votes. It's hard to just post my reads in the thread because it is a PM game, and I feel information is a bartering tool to both prove my own innocence as well as glean people's responses to my reads. I'll be posting more during the phase A stage, as right now openly giving scum teams info is quite dangerous. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude. When you finish reading the thread, I'd like you to post your reads/thoughts in the thread (although that's a given, just want to make sure you remember ). Anyways, at first glance, who would you kill today from the guys in the majority? What do you think about Cephiro? And Meapak? Some of us are trying to organize votes for this Round B. At least organize votes to give to the players that won't be part of the lynch so they get to 9 votes as soon as possible and discussion about them ends soon (so we can have more discussion about who to lynch). So PM me or wbg about who you'd give your votes to, or post in the thread, whatever and we can organize something. + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg] + Original Message by wbg ET already claimed I think. 3 to Katina is fine. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so who should I give my votes to for now? Maybe I'll keep it simple and give 3 to Katina, since she's below me on the "Players that voted NO" list. Who is the one from our group with the lowest vote count on him so far? ET asked me to tell him who to vote for too (said he'd be back right before the deadline or something), so if you can tell me the votes for him too, or just PM him directly. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: yeah I'm keeping the sheet private. Syllo has edit access and that's it. Original Message From gonzaw: I was also thinking something else. Instead of posting the spreadsheet in the thread soon, you PM it to our group first. That way you should get claims from other players without them knowing how the voting stands, that way if they are mafia they can't manipulate the votes. That way we are the ones that will decide the lynch and not scum. Of course you can post the spreadsheet in the thread once all votes have been claimed or something What do you think? Original Message From wherebugsgo: you have 6 so far; out of 15 claimed. Basically the sheet looks fine for now. I'm trying to get vote claims from some of the more "out there" players (i.e. chaoser/sheth) Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, so what are the votes shaping up to? That way I'll give my 3 "reserved" votes now, but we have to choose who to give them to from our "voting block" (to make it even, at least for now). Original Message From wherebugsgo: Yeah I've started. I was out for an hour and in that time I received 10 PMs lol. Original Message From gonzaw: Have you started organizing the votes yet? We shouldn't waste too much time, if not the same thing from D1 will happen and all votes will start flying in in the last 10 minutes of the day + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg freakout] + Original Message by wbg basically a bunch of people afked (foolishness+katina) and there was a timing issue with chaoser not being around when I needed him. So basically I ended up 5 too many votes, foolishness ended up with too many votes, and katina has a couple too many. I assume you didn't send your votes in yet, right? Syllo and I suspect that if BC and Cephiro vote trade they'll end up at 5 votes. Thus, meapak will be left at 0 (we're okay with meapak dying but we don't particularly want only him to die) So, I've saved all my votes so I can get meapak to 5, but that leaves ET below 5. We definitely don't want ET to die, so if you can give all your votes to ET he'll live. Katina is at 10 counting your 3. If you put all 5 on ET he goes to 8 and katina goes to 7. You can give 4 to ET and 1 to katina and that's fine too. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah I'm here, what happened? Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: I need your votes right now + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg Freakout Cont.] + Original Message by wbg yeah this is stupid as hell. Alright, I'll give meapak 4 and ET 1. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: No, don't let ET die. There's also the chance that only ET and Meapak die while BC Cephiro get more votes out of somewhere and survive But damn, this is hard. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: well, if BC lied and he sent all his votes to Cephiro then only Meapak will die and vice versa. It could be pretty bad because Meapak will only end up with 4 votes. However if only meapak dies then BC is confirmed scum. Not much help obviously, since we still need to luck out in him getting into majority later, but... fuck. The other possibility is risking ET dying by giving meapak five. then all of them will have five votes and they'll all die. What do you think? Give meapak 4 and potentially he's the only one who dies, or give meapak five and potentially all four of them die? Original Message From gonzaw: So if BC/Cephiro trade votes that means all of BC/Cephiro/Meapak die then? Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'll give 1 to ET and 4 to meapak; that should put ET at 6 and meapak at 5 (if BC gave him 1 vote) this is tense lol. waiting on BC to reply Original Message From gonzaw: I already gave 3 to Katina :/ I asked Protact if we could send votes in bunches and he said he was fine, so I sent them already since I had spare votes. I have 2 remaining, I'll send them to ET right away. Can you get votes from somewhere else to save him? Unless he hits 8 votes he can get lynched Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'm missing claims from BC/cephiro and your remaining two votes. That's it at this point. I have five remaining as well. Today will work out if we can get ET above the 5 vote threshold. Original Message From gonzaw: How much votes does he have? What about the rest? Do the rest have enough votes as well? Who didn't send votes yet? Original Message From wherebugsgo: if you can. if you haven't sent all of them in, take 1-2 off katina (ET is at 3 and we need him at 6) + Show Spoiler [D2 Round B wbg more talk] + Original Message by wbg [sheth lied. Or at least, he said he lied. So if Cephiro has 5 votes from Sheth then we know Sheth is scum as well Show nested quote + [Original Message From gonzaw: Can Cephiro die in that case? I thought Sheth gave him 5 votes. Hide nested quote - [Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'm dumb, scratch that either BC saves cephiro and cephiro saves BC ; if that happens then only meapak dies. If I give meapak 5 votes and BC is not lying about giving meapak votes, meapak lives but cephiro will die. So I should give meapak five votes. Agreed? + Show Spoiler [N2 wbg] + Original Message by wbg no one lied from the looks of it, gonna double/triple check Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah you may be right. But scum from the other party need to die for us to make connections like that. Well, I don't know if it's bad or not that Cephiro didn't vote. I think he could have given BC some votes if he had voted. Anyways, did someone lie about their votes or where the other ones accounted for? Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: Palmar claimed 5 on prplhz, cephiro probably because he's scum. at least I'm going to assume that for now loll. It's also possible Palmar is scum as well. Foolishness+Katina are linked but they both thought BC was scum. If a scum of the other party flips and he is pushed by those 2 then I think we can safely assume they are town. We need sandro to flip pretty badly. Original Message From gonzaw: Wow, that went better than expected. I thought that maybe someone had given BC 5 votes or something. Why the hell didn't Palmar or Cephiro vote though? + Show Spoiler [D3 Round A wbg] + Original Message by wbg nah better for us to vote randomly I think. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey. Do you think we can do that plan I told you yesterday? Katina PMed me about it and thought it was good to. We are 4 players right now from our "voting circle" of yesterday: you, me, Katina, ET. 2 of us vote YES and 2 of us vote NO. That way we will have no influence over the minority/majority (perhaps that is best at this time), but ALL of us won't be in the majority again and we can focus on other people on Round B + Show Spoiler [D3 Round A ET] + Original Message by ET worked out relatively OK I guess. I'm really curious for the post game tbh, b/c I bet Ver/Incog are shaking their heads "this town... here is obvious plan for controlling phase A". What's up with the talk about sloosh? I pm'd him a bit earlier; he didn't respond too extensively though, just asking for my top scum read. Does he look scummy for in-thread or PM reasons? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: wbg said he wouldn't follow it and we should vote randomly. I'll vote YES; I've been voting NO all these days. Also at least we can trade votes between each other Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I voted No, fyi, don't know if you're following through with plan. Original Message From gonzaw: I was thinking that me,you, wbg and Katina could vote like this: 2 vote NO 2 vote YES That way we won't risk ALL of us being in the majority again and having to waste all time trying to get votes on us first; we can easily get 10 votes (between us) on the 2 that end up in the majority very early and that's it, and then we can focus on other players. What do you think? + Show Spoiler [D3 Round B wbg, attempt to save chaoser] + Original Message by wbg yes but I don't know what scum will do. Scum can claim anything and do anything. If we don't know the number of votes that are placed then any one of them will die (whoever has the fewest) Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, my thought was that if we "go along" prp's plan in the thread, scum may buy it and think the votes are different than they aactually are. Doesn't matter if chaoser/Meapak give 5 votes each, unless Sheth receives 8 or 9 votes he'll get lynched. If scum think the votes are 0/0/0, perhaps they'll give less votes to Sheth thinking they can get chaoer/Meapak lynched instead, so they'll give him 1 or 2 votes or something. Yeah, it's difficult to control where the votes go, but at least you have the spreadsheet and everybody claim their votes to you so you can control it as the day goes on. I'll keep my votes until right before the deadline, you should too, and depending on the claims you get we see what we can do. Anyways, I'm off to uni, so good luck trying to organize this thing (please don't let that ET incident from last day happen again >_> ) Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: I'm holding onto my votes as well, but we need to be careful about it. Supposing we give meapak/chaoser 5 votes each and they trade votes, they end up saving each other. I agree that it would be difficult to control exactly who dies but I dunno. I want to see what scum will do if 3 people are up to die. I'm not really sure how to predict where the votes will go unless we ensure only Sheth dies. + Show Spoiler [D3 Round B wbg Attempt to save chaoser…] + Original Message by gonzaw Nah fuck it. I'll give Meapak 3 votes and chaoser 2. I'd recommend you to give chaoser 3 and Meapak 2 so both have 5 votes Show nested quote + Original Message From wherebugsgo: I think it's best we don't influence the lynch, now that I think about it more. If we make sure no one is told to vote for meapak/cephiro/chaoser then the only votes that go in that direction are scum. Then we can direct the lynches on later days on specific people. One person WILL die and it WILL be one of those 3. It's not like we lose much by just letting them do whatever they want. If we were to get meapak/chaoser to 3/3 for example and sheth gets 4 votes from somewhere and chaoser gets 5 then meapak dies. This is very volatile and we're just making it harder for ourselves. I have not sent in my votes but I will now. Probably 1/1/1/1/1. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: But MZ wont' die if Sheth has 1 vote for instnace. If I don't split the vote MZ will die if Sheth has 1 vote. I'd prefer to take a chance on that, I mean, we don't lose anything, and if Sheth does indeed have 1-2 votes we will benefit from it. Maybe you could give 1 vote to Meapak or chaoser and I'll split the vote 3/2, that way it's even Did you send your votes yet? Original Message From wherebugsgo: syllo probably won't answer you cause he's asleep. I'm out in about 10 minutes. And I do mean Cephiro. Cephiro is in the minority so his votes are extra basically. anyway even if scum can choose who to kill I'm fine with any 3 of those guys dying (chaoser sheth meapak). Obviously I'm least okay with only meapak dying, which is why I suggested giving meapak 5 votes. If you split 3/2 on meapak/chaoser or something like that and chaoser gets any votes at all from sheth or cephiro, meapak dies (say meapak is town then) and your votes were wasted. An individual player has the most influence by stacking votes on a single player. Judging by the connections between players it would be a better idea to stack votes on one person we think is town in that case (or most likely to be town) instead of splitting because splitting doesn't really accomplish anything. Original Message From gonzaw: I guess you mean chaoser and not Cephiro >_> Honestly, I see splitting my votes the best deal. I don't want to gamble on chaoser or Meapak being scum at this point by giving the other one 5 straight votes, specially if it means Sheth will still live. I'll PM syllogism and see what he thinks, it's that okay? Original Message From wherebugsgo: I have a final exam in about an hour so I can't make it for deadline. Everyone should have followed the prplhz plan; I have sandro voting the same way (for everyone but chaoser/sheth/meapak in the majority) and meapak has claimed votes on me. no idea who cephiro is voting but he's the only ? factor. I'm going to leave this up to you, I'm 50/50 and honestly don't really care as I want all 3 of those guys to die. However I think the safe route would be giving meapak 5 votes and then allowing sheth + cephiro to just die, as he's the one I'm most unsure about. If you split your votes over chaoser/meapak it may not mean anything if sheth receives 5. truly though I don't think it matters what you do. Do what you think is best and cite this PM if anyone gives you trouble while I'm gone (though I should be back about ~2 hours after deadline anyway) + Show Spoiler [N3 wbg] + Original Message by wbg my example of putting 5 on meapak was merely an example. When meapak announced to the thread that he was receiving 5 from sheth it should have been apparent that you would not need to put votes on him. Cephiro had already said he wasn't putting votes on Sheth. That's when the "put votes on one person to influence the lynch" kicks in. Cephiro knew the three people we were trying to kill. If he says he's not voting sheth then that suggests he's okay with sheth dying (i.e. cephiro and sheth are not connected). When meapak says sheth is giving him 5 votes that automatically means sheth is receiving 0 and cephiro is putting 5 on chaoser. it is at that point that sheth becomes most likely to flip town out of the 3 and you would put 5 on him. Sadly meapak posted that almost half an hour into my final. I sent my votes in at 10:30 KST and he posted it at 11:30 KST. meh. At least we've eliminated one person and we know chaoser is still very likely to be scum. I'm still suspicious of sloosh as well. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, the instructions have nothing to do with it. If I have 5 votes to Meapak, Sheth would still have gotten lynched. Same if I just followed prp's voting system. Unless you've told me to give 5 votes to Sheth he would have gotten lynched, hell, even if I put my 5 votes on him he would have gotten lynched. Also, I feel a little responsible for the misslynch too. I tried to push a single lynch on Sheth the whole day, so trying to get a single lynch on chaoser or Meapak was almost impossible to make. Hide nested quote - Original Message From wherebugsgo: I just got back. I'm writing a post, read it. Sorry for not giving you clearer instructions, I was preoccupied. We should've 100% been able to lynch scum today, and I will take the blame for that mislynch. Original Message From gonzaw: What a disaster. I can't believe Sheth was town, his play didn't make any sense. Anyways, it seems my "play" didn't matter at all either, since Sheth gave Meapak 5 votes and Cephiro gave chaoser 5. What do you think Cephiro giving chaoser 5 votes means? (other than Cephiro basically outing himself as scum) Are they scumbuddies? Or did he try to frame him and get an easy lynch on Sheth in the process? Even if Cephiro tried to frame him, there's still the possibility they are scum from different factions though. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Meapak] + Original Message by Meapak It's like 20 pages when pasted into MS word... gl. I'll probably be asleep soon but if you like what you read in the PMs just let me know tomorrow and I'll get coordinating on the plan for round A Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Oh alright, I thought it had some deeper meaning behind it or something Anyways, I'll go read those PMs with you and wbg to figure out what's going on, I'll PM you back as soon as I finish them... ...I can't promise that will be soon though >_> Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Sorry ok. On the right are the voting lists, day 1 is on top followed by day 2 and day 3. On the left are who was in the minority VS who was in the majority. The names are copied directly from the day posts so that's just the order protact put them in. Below the stuff on the left are the same lists just with the names rearanged for ease of viewing to tell who's been in what section (minority/majority)... bugs made that section so I'm not quite sure what he was doing with it. Original Message From gonzaw: Ehm could you explain to me a little bit what it means? I mean, okay at the right you have what everybody voted in each Round B, and at the left you have the votes from Round A repeated twice. But why are the player names scrambled in those lists at the left? Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auq9565OCwtldEFLN25uQUtabEE5anBfUV9GRlJMOHc#gid=0 Here's the spreadsheet. Have a look around, I'm pretty sure we're on the right track but you might pick up something we missed. Original Message From gonzaw: Also no, he didn't give me the spreadsheet nor discussed this with me, at least not on N3. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Glad you're online, I'd like you to follow my plan but I'm gonna need to know that you're not going to spread it. I know bugs trusted you and I'm pretty sure he gave you the spreadsheet we worked on, if he didn't let me know. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A ET] + Original Message by ET What the balls? WBG never told you those reads? This is starting to get a little fishy. This is what MZ sent me when I asked him how Palmar/Wiggles were scum: Show nested quote + Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: The Palmar read comes from WBG and Syllo's PMs apparently and I sadly don't have those. Wiggles is actually a pretty easy one, he's played his scum meta to the T, follows scum voting patterns, and hasn't contributed a thing. If you'd like I can give you my PMs with WBG. Also you should have this spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Auq9565OCwtldEFLN25uQUtabEE5anBfUV9GRlJMOHc#gid=0 I too was slightly surprised at syllo's flip, however as you'll see on the spreadsheet, everything fits very nicely. Doesn't sound really substantiated to me, and I hope he explains how the spreadsheet shows X or Y because I can't make heads or tails of it atm. Hrmph. I'll wait to see the PMs between WBG and MZ before judging. Regardless, we should proceed with the plan anyways, b/c it's the easiest way to ensure that not all scum can hide in minority. I'm going to vote YES, you should vote NO. I will tell mz to vote YES, and Katina to vote NO. I'll think about the rest of the players in a bit. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I'll answer real quick cause I'm going to sleep. Yes I thought it would be like that. Hmm, you, me, Katina and Meapak should surely do it ourselves, then I don't really know. prp and sloosh can be partners too, Wiggles and Palmar perhaps too. I'm kind of suspicious of all 4, now I'm more suspicious of Wiggles than the others though. Meapak still hasn't explained to me how he an wbg "discovered" Wiggles and Palmar are scum though, maybe it has something to do with the voting or something. Either way, we could start creating partnerships right now. For instance you+me+Katina+Meapak can already vote or claim to vote 2 NOs and 2 YESs, then we see what we do with the rest of the players. Anyways, going to sleep. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: No he didn't :/ My plan works like this, each townie teams up with a partner. Partner A votes yes Partner B votes no. That means that both Yes and No votes are even, all that's left is for the scum to vote. Even if the scum teams coordinate, it still ensures that there are at least three scum up for lynch. At this point I'm not concerned about being in the majority vs the minority, all I want is to force scum into the majority so we can kill them. We still have enough townie votes to save the three townies who will end up in the majority. Essentially the same plan me and you did. I think it's funny (and good looking) if MZ came up with it on his own; I asked him if WBG had told him about his previous plans, and MZ said no. I think this is a good plan, because it minimizes the amount of votes we need to mobilize to protect townie people. I'm just musing on who we should consider very townie at this point. I'm most sure about you, Katina, and prplhz. After that comes MZ, Palmar, and Wiggles, but the latter 2 MZ claims are looking scummy. Thoughts on that? Original Message From gonzaw: Nope.. I asked him about his discussions with wbg and such, but he went away before he got to explain the plan to me. From his discussion with wbg I think it has something to do with that "half votes NO/half votes YES" thing we tried (and failed) to do last day though, or maybe he'll change it slightly or something. Original Message From EchelonTee: has MZ talked to you about his plan? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Meapak] + Original Message by Meapak I have no idea why WBG didn't send you this stuff. I was under the impression that he had told you the same stuff that he told me and it would just be a matter of you and I telling the thread what to do. I mean as you can see from the PMs, he told me he was gonna tell you. Why he didn't is beyond me. There's a PM in there where he talks about his Palmar suspicion and how he didn't want to spread it around so I assumed he had discussed it with you (since syllo was sure Palmar was town). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Oh. Yes I contacted ET, he told me he will vote YES and I should vote NO, and he'll tell you what to vote as well. I'm going to uni in half an hour or so, so I won't vote until then, so try to get that organized. I agree with Wiggles being scum, but I'm not too sure about Palmar, so make that case and post those "patterns" you guys found as soon as possible. Oh, do you have any idea why wbg didn't tell me anything about that thing you discussed or that he said he was going to tell me? Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I have given the spreadsheet and my PMs to every townie aside from Katina (she'll get it, she only just got in contact with me). Sorry about taking so long to answer, prplhz has been giving me a little trouble so it just slipped down the list. I'm going to make formal cases against Palmar and Wiggles and post them in the thread. Then I'll go back and PM you individual reads on everyone else. In the meantime have you go in contact with ET? Are you guys gonna vote together? Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude would you mind answering my previous PM? Also, I think at some point I've seen other users in that spreadsheet you gave me, did you give it to other people as well? Did you give your PMs with wbg to other players as well? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A sloosh] + Original Message by sloosh I'd say the list is totally accurate. Palmar is suspicious because syllo and WBG just died but he still feels inclined to withhold the information to himself, and is interested in discussing theories surrounding sandroba getting into minority rather than finding the scum. Mr. Wiggles is suspicious because of his general inactivity in the thread, and the irrational fear that he might die last night.. Quotes like Show nested quote + On May 08 2012 02:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So what are people's thoughts on Sloosh? There seemed to be a general feeling that he was scum, but now I don't see his name being mentioned at all for the lynch. Did something happen in PM land that I missed? Feels really really off - it promotes a fake idea so townies start thinking in a skewed manner, while innocently pushing me as a lynch candidate whilst not taking any responsibility if I end up becoming one. If he thought I was scum he would push me no? prplhz I'm counting as basically confirmed town based on foolishness / syllo / WBG's reads as well as his multi-lynch plan (which scum wouldn't suggest). Additionally, the voting evidence indicates that a wiggles / palmar / sandroba team is very plausible. They probably screwed around with the 2-1 and got lucky when sandroba hit minority, which explains why palmar is pushing his theory anyhows. If sandroba hit majority, whoever would probably have bussed hard for town cred. I can't really see how one of them could be town because it would mean one of my town reads are wrong, in which case the scum teams wouldn't make sense. you seem townie, foolishness was sure katina was town, I'm almost definite Meapak's PMs are legit, there is no way you can doctor something that accurately / extensively and WBG has shown that he thought meapak could be very well town (and syllo expressed this too which probably means WBG and syllo talked about it). ET looks fine and a scum team with him on it makes no sense (3 of them end up in minority D3 can't be). If you have any more questions just shoot them my way. Now its all about consolidating the townies together and killing off the scum. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: No, wbg didn't tell me anything about it. I was as surprised as you when he gave me those PMs as well. The last PM from wbg I got was around the same time he started explaining the whole "If gonzaw had given 5 votes to Sheth all 3 would have been killed" and he explained the same thing to me (also, I'm not very proud of that either >_> ). I asked him if wbg had told him anything else but he didn't respond to me yet. Speaking of which sloosh, what do you think of prp, Palmar and Wiggles? If one of those were scum, who would you choose and why? I'm confident that the 2 remaining scum are in the group of sloosh/prphlz/Wiggles/Palmar, or at worst at least 1 of them is there. You are the one less suspicious of that group, but you haven't really given your opinions or reads on players other than Ceph/chaoser/sandro/ (giving opinion on those is not that hard though, just saying "yup they are scum" seems like the popular choice lately) so I'm still a little bit wary. Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: Hey, just wanted extra confirmation. Meapak sent me his PMs with WBG, which say that WBG discussed the plan out with syllo and you in the case he got shot. Can you confirm this? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A prplhz] + Original Message by prplhz He has a huge fucking filter :D Since you believe in scum tells you should believe in town tells too, being active is generally a town tell No, I don't think that he's town, but I would be more sure that he was scum if he had stopped saying anything. I don't care much about cases, I've seen cases from scum and cases from town and I can hardly ever see a difference. I don't trust you unconditionally but you're not priority to get killed They never told me anything lol, I'm just some noob. I asked for some stuff but I never really got anything. I'm not going to make stuff up when it isn't there, and yes, I am pretty much just sheeping other people's opinions. Sucks, but that's kind of how it is. Town can easily sheep too and it's not like my filter is empty or anything. Yea, I know that saying that you're bad is a scum tell and I can prove that to you. I pointed it out when I did it in some other game too so that's a null tell I also think that I'm playing better but apparently not You can think of it what you want, read my filter and tell me if you think it's scummy 'cause it isn't. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: How is Cephiro "really putting effort into the game"? I haven't seen him make a single case the whole game. Also, do you think I'm scum or not? You said earlier that you thought I was, but now you don't apparently...? So, why do you think Meapak is scum? You can't just say "I'm sheeping syllo's/wbg's read" or some shit, come up with your own, or at least tell me what syllo/wbg told you in PMs about him and say if you agree with it. I also expect original content from you. You can't just say "Yep, I'll just sheep wbg/syllo" and expect to get away with it. You've been apologizing and saying how "bad" you are playing throughout the whole game and I don't like that one bit. You said so on N1 and you said you'd play better and stuff, but you are still just sheeping and apologizing. Dude, what do you want me to think of that? Hide nested quote - Original Message From prplhz: There's not really much to it. I didn't do much in the beginning of this game 'cause I was ill and then I kind of dropped out because people thought I was town while I thought that syllogism/Palmar/wherebugsgo were town and I thought that I'd just sheep them. All of my reads are heavily influenced by those three and any reasoning I could give you will be superficial and simple and probably also pretty dumb, because I mostly just sheeped those guys. Liquid`Sheth was scum because syllogism told me. I didn't really personally think that he was all that scummy but syllogism insisted that he had claimed scum or whatever and you guys apparently didn't like him either. When everybody stacks someone in a vet game then I think they're most likely scum, vets don't just go around sheeping each other for no reason (well, I do, but I'm horrible). Yea, I'm purposely being a little vague about those two because I don't fully trust you yet. Sorry about that. Cephiro gives me second doubts because he is really putting effort into this game, but sandroba is giving me second doubts because he isn't really putting effort into this game. Anyway, sandroba will allegedly do whatever I say and that's a plus for now so he's not really priority for me. Uh, Cephiro/sandroba/chaoser/Meapak_Ziphh/someone where someone could easily be Mr. Wiggles. I agree that his filter is not impressive at all and that he's kinda been skirting by. Original Message From gonzaw: I know they were "kind of your reads", but post reasoning. Why did you think Sheth was scum for instance? Why did you think chaoser and Meapak were scum? You never posted any reasoning or any case or anything, you just said "Kay guys this is a voting plan to kill Sheth/Meapak/chaoser kthxbye". I don't get what's "to like" about Cephiro/sandroba, they are obvious scum at this point, Cephiro specifically. If you don't think that list is very good....then who's scum? ET? Katina? Me? If so why? If not why? I'm trying to find the remaining scum here, not just throw a bunch of town reads in the air and then do nothing at all. If you are town then try to find the remaining 2 scum as well, or if you think Meapak is scum (for some reason you haven't stated yet) then find the remaining 1 then. Unless you think someone of Cephiro/chaoser/sandroba is town, in which case, again expand on it and find the remaining 3 scum. Dunno dude. Anyways, you say you'd be willing to discuss Wiggles, so let's discuss Wiggles. What exactly makes you think he's town? Here's his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034&user=99050 I checked and this is the only post where he states he thinks someone is scum or that he wants to lynch someone specific: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=22#440 It was on VE. Check the rest of his filter, he is neutral as shit, and just "pressures" people but doesn't conclude anything. For instance these: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=50#1000 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=51#1002 It may seem like he thinks Sheth is scum and is pressuring him...but he never says what he actually thinks of Sheth. He never goes around to press that issue again either, and then just goes with a totally unrelated question about sloosh. Wait: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=19#361 Here it seems he is getting pumped against a scum Cephiro and has him against the ropes and is willing to lynch him right? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=26#513 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=39#764 Oh wait... So please, if you think he's town then tell me exactly why you think he's town, in light of these things I told you. Original Message From prplhz: Palmar's list is a good starting point: Cephiro/chaoser/sandroba/Meapak_Ziphh/someone They were kind of my reads, I don't fully agree with all of them but I don't really have a better alternative. I just didn't like how he was attacked my plan because it was MY plan and MY reads 'cause it kind of wasn't even though it kinda was. I don't like Cephiro and sandroba didn't do anything yet. We can discuss Mr. Wiggles but really, I don't think that that list is very good. I'm town and I'm pretty sure that both slOosh and Palmar are town. Palmar and syllogism hydra'd with each other and they respect each other's play and they have really good read of each other. There was a nagging but very small doubt about their alignment in my mind before syllogism flipped but really, Palmar is almost certainly town. Oh, it's just that Meapak_Ziphh told me that everybody else was supporting his plan (except scum, Katina and myself). Original Message From gonzaw: So you think they are all town? Who do you think is scum then? I asked you for some reasoning behind your reads when you made that "plan" yesterday as well. You said you'd want to kill Sheth, chaoser and Meapak and they were "kind of your reads", but you never explained why. You never explained what you think of Cephiro and sandroba either if I recall correctly (if you did then point out where you did so). I think the remaining 2 scum are in the group of sloosh/prphlz/Wiggles/Palmar. I'm more suspicious of Wiggles than the rest, because even though he "looks" townie, he doesn't do anything. His filter is 2 pages long, and he hasn't called anyone scum in the whole game. He also called Cephiro "scummy", but then immediately said "he looks like bad town to me". How can you ignore that? What other "townie" thing did he do to make you think he's town in light of this? I'm thinking sloosh is town out of those, but I'm not sure about Palmar or you. Logic tells me that Palmar is most likely scum since it doesn't seem probable a whole scum team voted YES on D1, but by behaviour alone I think you are more likely scum than him. Anyways, I'm not "joining" up with Meapak's plan yet because he hasn't even explained it to me or talked to me. ET did PM me about it and told me the gist of it, and to be honest I agree. We need to get chaoser/sandroba/Cephiro into the majority and kill them ASAP, and that plan works. It was a plan ET/me/wbg/Katina did on D3 as well, so it's not like it's "crazy" or anything. Original Message From prplhz: They're all on the townie side. sloOsh because he replaced Radfield. Radfield looked really town, he was actively trying to organize town early on and seemed very frustrated with how people were just all going their separate ways and then he replaced out which is also a very townie thing to do. Palmar because syllogism says so. Well, primarily because syllogism says so, those two have impeccable reads on each other. Other than that he also looks townie enough to me, I think he looks a little more ... "directionless" as scum, like he doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing. Mr. Wiggles is town because he kinda looks town. Dunno, that's a little weak but meh, he's not the scummiest around at all. Why are you joining up with Meapak_Ziphh and his crazy round A plan? That kinda makes me think that you're scum. Original Message From gonzaw: Wow everybody is asking me the same thing now. Check the thread. You know, I'd really like you to give more reads, thoughts and reasonings and all that shit if you can, specially your thoughts on sloosh/Wiggles/Palmar Original Message From prplhz: Why did wherebugsgo think that Palmar was scum? I know he told you about this before he died and I'm quite curious here so can you please tell me Thank you. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round A Katina] + Original Message by Katina I talked to Wiggles a little. I've never heard anyone say he's been inactive. Is it unusual for him to only have 2 pages by day 4? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Was Wiggles active in PMs? Do you have proof of this? Although you can't call Wiggles active in the thread when his filter is 2 pages long in Day 4. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: Okay I think Palmar is mafia. I have since the game began. He's not playing like he usually is. He's not aggressive or calling people retards. His day 1 plan only distracted the town. He doesn't call anyone mafia except sandroba. Radfield I thought was mafia. But both Foolishness and syllogism told me that sloosh was putting in an honest effort to help the town. They both thought sloosh was not mafia. And you do too so I'm thinking he is okay. Wiggles I lean towards town. prphlz I lean towards mafia. Someone was telling me that prphlz was town cause he was too out of the loop to be mafia. I think it was syllogism that said that. I don't really know. Wiggles has been active in PM and in thread it seems. Though not so much recently from what I know. Hard to say on both of them. Someone, wherebugsgo or Foolishness, was suspicious of Meapak before they died. Meapak's filter is a bit shady. He isn't actively trying to do stuff for the town. They were saying Meapak is an active town planner when he is town. And that's not what he's doing this game. But I agree with his mafia suspects. I think he's on the right track. Sorry I've had a stressful past few days so my memory on who is saying what is a bit fuzzy. x.x Original Message From gonzaw: Meapak hasn't told me the plan yet, but ET PMed me and did. It's the exact same thing we did last day. We have a group of N players, N/2 vote NO and N/2 vote YES (like you, me, ET and wbg did on D3). Yeah, the plan is good, should know about it since we agreed on it before >_> Anyways, I would like your opinion on these players: -sloosh -Palmar -Wiggles -prphlz I'm confident the remaining 2 scum are in that group. I think Wiggles is scum, I'll make a case later or something if he gets into the majority. I think sloosh is the most townie of them, so that leaves Palmar/prhlz for the remaining scum spot. I'm indecisive between those, because it makes sense that Palmar is scum, since there would be 2 scum in the minority of D1, if he wasn't scum then it would mean that on D1 a whole scum team voted YES. However, prphlz is just so scummy. He doesn't post reads, and when he "does" it's just him saying he wants to kill Sheth/chaoser/Meapak and they are "kind of his reads". He doesn't state any other reasoning either. Now he PMed me and told me that he thinks sloosh/Palmar/Wiggles are town (he was particularly wishy-washy about Wiggles), and said he thought I was scum because I was following Meapak's plan. After I called him out for such bullshit, he retracted and apparently doesn't think I'm scum anymore, and he still doesn't try to care about finding the remaining scum or even state his reasoning for thinking Meapak is scum. Anyways, what are your thoughts? Original Message From Katina: Are you following Meapak? Do you know what his plan is? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak This is actually exactly how I feel. Prplhz isn't interested in working with us, that might change as we kill scum but either way, right now it's best that it's between us. I say we let Palmar live for now, we can actually use this as an opportunity to get him on board with us, I'll send him some "ideas" of where to put his votes and see how he responds. At this point he should be willing to deal with us since his filter indicates he wants the same people dead. The way I see it, ET, Sloosh, and I can all trade votes, you, katina and Palmar can pile on. I'd like to see us spread our votes (i.e. I give 2 to ET and 3 to sloosh or vice versa) this'll make it even harder for it to get screwed up if somehow one of us is scum. Chaoser and Wiggles need to die today. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I'm trying to get all vote claims together so we can organize this round better, here's the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdFVSanFOWmRKeXcxSGMxeXRNazNwZHc#gid=0 I gave it to ET and Katina, no one else. I don't really want more people having it and risk it going on scum's hands (don't give it to prphlz for now). I thought we could get multiple scum lynched today. We don't really have another choice, since killing scum 1 by 1 will likely mean we'll lose consider scum have 2 KP. I thought we should let chaoser and Wiggles die, but I'm not too sure about Palmar. What do you think? At least we should try and get votes on you, sloosh and ET and get them to 10 votes (10 votes is the safe zone). Then we can see where the other vote claims are going and see what we do with Palmar, what do you think? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] + By sloosh Chaoser for sure. Multi lynch will be tricky as scum can do whatever they want, but also scum teams will also target each other. I'm down for Wiggles lynch too, and if it works out we can pick out the last scum. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey. I have a spreadsheet with all the votes, I want to coordinate between you, me, ET, Katina, MZ, etc the votes, or at least to get them in a record so we know what's happening. PM me if you want to cast votes and I'll add them to the spreadsheet. We can discuss your votes and the votes of others as well. For instance, I think we should have more than 1 lynch today. We know scum have 2 KP now, and there are 5 of them and 6 of us. Even if we lynch a single one of them, if they kill 2 of us it will be 4-4 and we will basically go downhill from there, specially if Ceph/sandro get into the minority again. I was thinking of lynching Wiggles and chaoser today. I'm not too sure about Palmar, but don't give him votes just yet What do you think? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET] + By ET Hrmph, I just remembered that game recently (TL LII JubJub) where Palmar rolled scum and was quite wrong with a few reads (Node = scum, Caller = town, Kurumi = don't fcking no), so he can make mistakes. I could see scum using WIFOM: they shot multiple town leaders already; with Palmar one of the few legendary vets left alive, he looks worse by comparison. Imagine if it was Palmar shot instead of syllo; wouldn't we think syllo looked scummy by now? Regardless, him being alive D4 is very strange, WIFOM aside. I have no qualms with him being lynched. Anyways with sloosh, I'm down with keeping him alive (and I already sent in my votes lolz), but we need to decide soon if we're going to 3-lynch or 2-lynch. Honestly I've thought Wiggles was town for a while, but if you guys have a consensus on him then I'm alright with that, and MZ's case on him is pretty good. Now that I think about it, aiming for a 3-lynch might be better, because if we aim for a 3-lynch, even if scum save one of them from the lynch, we'll still have two on the docket. I imagine that if we aim for a 2-lynch, we might only end up with 1 lynch because of the uncertainty of scum actions. I'm going to dig harder into prplhz and sloosh later on; I feel like there's something to be found between those two, but for now I'm feeling alright with today's plan. Sleeping now for final tomorrow, let me know how things develop. When did mz gain all of his boldness lol? I've been leaning town on him, but didn't rly expect him to come out this strong. And yes, your spreadsheet is sxc :3 Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I'm always unsure about sloosh on "big" games. He just doesn't contribute as much as I'd like to, or at least not as much as he did in Newbie games. Though he PMs me and seems to care about the game now. I'm finding him more townie than say prphlz. He seems to care more. Considering there are 2 scum remaining (I really hope so, if one of sandro/chaoser/Cephiro was actually town I'll jump off a bridge or something), I see other people more scummy than him. He seems to put some effort too, so even if we have some doubts he shouldn't really be a lynch candidate today, at least not if we want utter chaos and shit. Oh, I didn't give him the spreadsheet though, so don't worry about that. I gave the spreadsheet to you, MZ and Katina, no one else. About the mafia families: The way I see it, the Yokoya are more likely to hit the Harimoto's. If chaoser was in BC's team (yokoya), perhaps Harimoto will try to get him lynched too or something so they don't waste their KP on them instead. But really, I don't really want to gamble on this. All it takes is for both scum teams to cooperate or something by shooting 2 townies tonight and we are doomed. I mean, obviously lynching 1 scum is better than nothing, but even now it's not that great, we need to take some chances. The thing we have that scum don't is knowledge. We know where the votes will be, or at least where our votes and hopefully some other claims we get. We also know who we will decide to lynch. For instance, imagine we decide to lynch Palmar as well. We won't tell it in the thread nor tell Palmar/Wiggles/etc on PMs either. Both scum teams (I assume you, MZ and Katina are town for now, if not...let's not speak of this) won't know who we will decide to lynch and therefore won't know where to put their votes. If both scumteams feel the same, we have a slight advantage, and we can get lucky with both scumteams voting badly and netting us 2 or even 3 lynches. So there's a chance this may work. Yeah, those scenarios don't look too good. But I'm confident there are at least 2 scum in chaoser/Wiggles/Palmar so those odds look better. Anyways, okay I'll send Katina/sloosh that partial voting list (I already sent MZ that one) Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: Hrmm... overall I think sloosh looks worse than Palmar, as Palmar has actually done a number of things and syllo was very sure of him being town, whereas sloosh has basically done nothing. But, I can see where they are coming from. Sloosh was a replacement, and I guess he hasn't been downright scummy. The special thing about Palmar (similar to Foolishness) is that their reads are pretty freaking accurate. That Palmar pushed VE, Ace, and Sheth hard to be lynched is a black mark in his book. Yes, I (and WBG/you to some extent) pushed those reads too, but Palmar isn't usually that sloppy. Remember Foolishness in Aperture? He instantly sniped Dirk Hardpec as scum, and methodically took out everyone else. Though Palmar does have an asshole style, this pattern of being wrong is pretty strange, and the fact that he hasn't written a long analytical post, for the most part, is also troubling. What has sloosh done to make you consider him townie? --- On the balance of power, remember that scum have to eliminate the other faction to gain their win condition. It's WIFOM, but I think scum will begin to be shot at night, esp. Yokoya shooting Harimto, b/c otherwise that faction will gain disproportionate power (voting power +kp). Regardless, if we think we can snipe out these scum, let's do it. I kind of forgot that this game was a mini, and that we've essentially reached LYLO. I think I would moreso support a 2 lynch if we are less sure, and a 3-lynch if we are more sure. Scenarios Assuming scum 2shot town at night: 2-lynch (2scum hit) - we will be at 4-3 after night. Good outcome. 2-lynch (1scum1town hit) - we will be at 3-4 after night. Bad, but not game over. 2-lynch (2 town hit) - let's not speak of this 3-lynch (3scum hit) - we will be at 4-2 after night. Great scenario. 3-lynch (2scum1town hit) - we will be 3-3 after night. Decent outcome. 3-lynch (1scum2town hit) - we will be 2-4 after night. GG NORE 3-lynch (3 town hit) - let's not speak of this Basically, 3-lynch has higher risk higher reward (1 great, 1 OK, 2 terrible), whereas 2-lynch has a smaller spread of outcomes (1 good, 1 semi-bad, 1 terrible). For now, I do agree with sending in the partial votes just so we can get things organized ASAP and not be offguard. I will send in my partial votes as you have laid out, tell the others and add it to your PPT after you receive confirmation from them. Original Message From gonzaw: I was wary of a multilynch as well last day, but I don't think we have a choice. Here: Scum have currently 2 KP, and I assume they have 1 KP each night barring something weird happening (like what happened on D1-D2 with 1 kill each). Currently we are at 6-5 (scum are combined). If we lynch only 1 of them, then it will be 6-4, but their 2 KP, if it's aimed at town (and I'm kind of sure it will), will reduce us to 4-4. It will either be 4-3-1 or 4-2-2. We are kind of screwed there, scum as a whole has the same voting power as we have. If we lynch a Yokoya today, then there will basically be as many Harimoto's as town, and if we don't lynch the remaining Yokoya that day we basically lose with that 2 KP. Of course maybe the scum teams will fight each other or something, but we still can't risk that. So we desperately need to get 1, 2 or maybe even 3 scum lynched (if all chaoser/Wiggles/Palmar are scum). About the plan: Someone is safe from the lynch with 10 votes (55/6 rounded up). So we need to get you, MZ and sloosh at 10 votes first of all. I'll try to force Wiggles and Palmar to claim their votes to have them accountable, so at least if they fuck us up they will out themselves as scum. Ceph's votes can't be accounted (since he will do what he pleases), but I don't know about sandroba. prphlz told me something like "sandroba is always asking me how to vote" or something (if I remember correctly). I'll try to get prphlz to tell me what sandro will vote if sandro claims to him, so at least we can get his votes accounted for (if he does claim his votes to prphlz, I doubt he'll change them too much, if not he wouldn't claim them in the first place). If that doesn't happen, then well we'll have to keep him as unaccounted for. The problem I find is that I'm not sure if they'll not vote for Wiggles either. We keep this discussion about the votes secret between us, so scum won't know if we'll give Wiggles 5 votes or not. Imagine Ceph and sandro are in different scumteams, Ceph and give chaoser votes, while sandro can give Wiggles votes. I'm still not too sure if Cephiro belongs to the same scum team as chaoser. I said it yesterday that he may have given him 5 votes to "frame" him of sorts. It's possible he won't give him votes either, so I don't know if we can take that into account. What do you think about Palmar ET? sloosh, Katina and MZ are very suspicious of him (well, MZ at least until he had that breakdown were he instantly thought Palmar was town somehow), and I'm having my doubts as well. Also, maybe we should send votes right now, at least partially. I asked Protact the other day and you are allowed to send partial votes (like just sending 3 of them). We'll try to get all 3 of you to 10 by using them first. Like, I take 3 votes of mine and vote you, MZ and sloosh. You take 3 votes and use 2 on sloosh and 1 on MZ MZ takes 3 votes and uses 2 on you and 1 on sloosh sloosh takes 3 votes and uses 2 on MZ and 1 on you Katina takes the 3 votes and uses them on you three. Right there the votes will be like: MZ-5 ET-5 sloosh-5 I'll try and get prphl to take 3 of his votes as well and give to each one of you. That way you guys are GUARANTEED to have at least 6 votes for now. Depending on what other claims (perhaps from Wiggles/Palmar) we see which one of you has less votes and we use our "backup" 2 votes on that one. I think that may be a good start, if you agree I'll tell them to do that for now. Original Message From EchelonTee: sigh.. I'm getting so sick of hearing Cephiro spout bullshit. "oh, WBG your scum! you lynch townies! blah blah blah! I was right about Ace and VE! Trololol! Listen to me deride everyone!" fuck I just want him dead, now. I'm wary about a multi-lynch unless we are pretty sure on our targets, and can have full coordination with votes. I'm most on board with Chaoser, after revieweing people's cases and looking at him myself. The problem is if his scummate is one of the people already under heavy suspicion (Cephiro/sandroba), they have nothing to lose by just 5 voting Chaoser, as happened last cycle. We would have to do something like this: Assuming we want Chaoser/Wiggles to die: 11 People alive, 55 votes total chaoser - 5 from Cephiro (probably) EchelonTee - at least 6 Meapak_Ziphh - at least 6 Mr. Wiggles - 5 exactly Palmar - at least 6 slOosh - at least 6 That's 34 votes, leaving us with 21 leeway. That honestly isn't the worst. Trying to maximize survivability: chaoser - 5 from Cephiro (probably) EchelonTee - 11 Meapak_Ziphh - 10 Mr. Wiggles - 5 exactly Palmar - 10 slOosh - 9 With 5 votes leftover since Chaoser won't claim to us. Chaoser can't vote for himself, so as long as no one else votes for him, he will definitely die. Also, if he 5 votes anyone else, it won't significantly alter anything. Doing a vote distribution like this should ensure that there won't be a mass townie slaughter, and even if scum teams coordinate they shouldn't be able to drastically alter the votes. The problem with this is coordinating WHO we want to kill, and accounting for people who won't claim their votes. Thoughts? Original Message From gonzaw: Kay, here is the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdFVSanFOWmRKeXcxSGMxeXRNazNwZHc#gid=0 Would you agree to try and get a multilynch? Let's get the votes to lynch chaoser and Wiggles. Maybe palmar, although I'm not to sure about it. We need to get votes on you, MZ and sloosh first though, would you agree? I'll try to get vote claims from prph/sloosh/etc and put them in the spreadsheet, and maybe we can organize something + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Here's prplhz PMs: (PMs) Sorry about the delay, TL is doing this weird crash thing for me so I'm running it off a cached version. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah I'd like those PMs with prphlz. I had some weird PMs with him as well. He basically admitted he just sheeped wbg/syllo and didn't have any reads whatsoever, and keeps reassuring he is "bad" and "newbie" and keeps apologizing. Anyways, yeah try to get Palmar to claim votes to you, at least so he can be accountable for his votes. Also, ignore that PM I sent you moments ago, since you just answered that in this one >_> Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: This plan looks good, I basically just PM'd you a similar idea in terms of splitting votes which makes me feel even better about it. idk about Palmar, I read through his filter and tried to make a case on him and realized I couldn't. That's when I had a mini panic attack. Palmar may still be scum, however he's now in a position where he has to work with us or go against his reads he's had the whole game. If he suddenly backs out then yeah he's scum, however at the moment I feel like we can use his votes to fill in the hole left by prplhz. Also prplhz is acting retarded, I can give you my recent PMs with him if you like. With the current teams arranged the way they are I have a hard time believing he's scum but his play has been horrendous. He's my likely substitute for Palmar atm. Again, the whole Palmar thing was brought on by realizing that I had no case against him other than WBG's PM, and I'm not dumb enough to just blindly go off of that. Original Message From gonzaw: I've come up with a little "pre-plan", and talked to ET about it and he agreed We should give 3 of our votes away right now. I asked Protact before and it's possible, you just PM 3 names, and then afterwards you PM the remaining 2. That is so we can get the votes on you, sloosh and ET ASAP- They should go like this: -Me and Katina put 1 vote on sloosh, 1 on you and 1 on ET -You put 2 votes on ET and 1 on sloosh -sloosh puts 2 votes on you and 1 on ET -ET puts 2 votes on sloosh and 1 on you There each 3 of you will have at least 5 votes already, and then we save each of our 2 votes for later (not later as in right before the deadline, but at least until we get more vote claims perhaps). We need the 3 of you to reach 10 votes first. I think we need to just do that, and let Palmar/Wiggles/chaoser die, or at least Wiggles and chaoser. If we don't give scum the spreadsheet they won't really know what we are planning (they won't know if we plan on giving Palmar votes for instance) so they can't exactly plan what votes to give, and if we are lucky we could get 2 scum lynched. Also, what's with your sudden "revelation" that Palmar is town? You haven't responded to that post I made in the thread. If Palmar is really scum with Wiggles and sandroba, then I don't see what's the deal, since Palmar never mentioned Wiggles at all, and I think he mentioned sandroba like 2 times and only said things like "oh yeah and sandroba needs to die...anyways Cephiro is scum/chaoser is scum/BC is scum". It makes sense Palmar would not be on a same team with Cephiro, chaoser or BC; but I don't get why you had that outburst out there + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] + To: Protactinium [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: Liar Game D4PB Vote Date: 5/11/12 05:09 2 Meapak, 1 EchelonTee. Will send 2 more by deadline. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yes you are allowed, I asked Protact that the other day and he said we are. Original Message by sloosh I haven't - are we allowed to send parts at a time? Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, ET, me and Meapak have been talking about letting all 3 die as well in a 3-way lynch, since it's more likely at least 2 of them will die. Okay then, have you sent your 2 votes to MZ and 1 to ET yet? I'll update the spreadsheet then Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: Sounds good. As for Palmar I wouldn't mind him dead. He really hasn't done anything even after syllo or WBG died, and he somehow has a town read on Wiggles in PM land that he isn't revealing in thread despite Wiggles being a serious lynch candidate, nor is he putting any effort in thread. Even if he were pulling strings in PM land, it would have to be with one of us 5 (since it makes no sense to PM your scum reads beside figuring alignment) - townies would be PMing townies to consolidate votes, and I haven't gotten a single PM from him. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey. I've come up with a little plan for now and ET and MZ are on it. Each 5 of us (me, you, ET, MZ and Katina) should give away 3 votes like this: -Me and Katina put 1 vote on you, 1 on MZ and 1 on ET -MZ puts 2 votes on ET and 1 on you -You put 2 votes on MZ and 1 on ET -ET puts 2 votes on you and 1 on MZ That way, all 3 of you will have 5 votes already and can't have less at any moment. Also, all 5 of us will still have 2 remaining votes to use as we please for the remainder of the day. For instance if there are some claims (from prphl for instance) that give MZ 3 votes, then we use our 2 votes we kept to give you and ET more votes. ET and MZ are already voting like that, and I just Pmed Katina the same + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak ET went to sleep as well T_T. I'm not opposed to that, however it'll HAVE to be between just us, Palmar hasn't PM'd me back yet but there's no way he'll work with us if he know's he's getting killed lol. We'll have to arrange it somehow so that he thinks we're voting for him. This is all dependent on him agreeing to work with us, if he doesn't, killing people will be harder but we won't have to work with him. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I've been talking to ET and we think that a 3-way lynch it's better for now. For instance, imagine scum give their votes to save chaoser, then it's likely both Wiggles and Palmar will die with 0 votes. Same if they choose to save Wiggles or Palmar. If we decide a 2-way lynch, then it's likely we'll only get 1 of them lynched depending on what scum does. Do you agree with this? If so then we can just start organizing all of our votes into you, ET and sloosh so you can arrive to 10 votes as soon as possible, what do you think? Anyways, I'm going to sleep, so you can discuss with ET if you have doubts and shit + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET trying to save Wiggles] + By ET Got hold of a laptop. There are a number of things: 1. I thought Wiggles was town for a while, it's just been my read. I posted why on D1. 2. Attention shifted swiftly and suddenly to him; I find that strange. It's exactly how I mislynched wiggles in jubjub; Wiggles does his semi-contributing wishywashy style, and people jump on him like hounds. He's been more open then Palmar, in any case. 3. He knew that he was on deck to be lynched because of WBG's plan/list; tbh, the way he reacted is the same way I did (are those PMs real? are they corroroborated?), except Wiggles posted them in thread. The only thing I find especially fishy about Wiggles is how he is ignoring chaoser. But then again, Palma is also ignoring Wiggles. I admit that wiggles isnt a paragon of towniness but the lynch on him feels like a mislynch. I think it's going to be very hard to get a multi lynch. I highly doubt any scum will be left at 0 votes. Honestly I think the best course of action is to max votes on Sloosh, myself, and M_Z. I think it will be likely that Chaoser and Palmar will get 5 voted if it looks like they are being left for the lynch. If we want Wiggles to die, then we give him no votes, if we want him to live we give him 6. I'm concerned that if we leave Wiggles at 0, then chaoser and Palmar will not die. The ULTIMATE goal of today is to get chaoser lynched, as he is our most assured town read. To that end, if you want to make it seem as though Wiggles is still on deck to be lynched, then we can discreetly put 6 votes on wiggles and get chaoser or palmar lynched. Sorry if this is haphazard, I'm rushing this post. Just, the most important thing is getting chaoser lynched. Palmar and Wiggles are trying this turn in some regard; it's obviously clear that chaoser has given up and is hoping for a save from a scumbuddy. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I agree about lynching Palmar and chaoser, but why not Wiggles? What changed your mind? Yes, he made a good case against Palmar, but he's against the ropes and it's the only thing he can do. When Round B started he didn't do anything, he just asked 10 questions about "Is Meapak telling the truth about wbg" and things. He didn't have a single interest in the lynch until he realized he'd be lynched himself, and now he's "utterly" convinced Palmar is scum all of a sudden. Why wasn't he convinced Palmar was scum before? Why did he just started making a case and have a strong opinion on someone as soon as he's decided as the lynch? And why doesn't he even mention chaoser? Yes, sloosh's accusation against him wasn't that good though, although it's irrelevant. I don't care about Wiggles "communicating" with the other scum team in that post or discussing KP and misslynches, I care about his actions towards scumhunting and trying to win the game for town. His sudden outburst doesn't feel too townie to me. Why did he have such a "good" case against Palmar but never presented it or acknowledged it before? Why did he never even mention Palmar as scummy before either? There is something fishy there. I think it is possible chaoser and Wiggles are in the same team, which is why they are ignoring each other and try to kill Palmar; while Palmar is in the other team. Don't know how Cephiro and sandro fit into this though, perhaps its BC+Cephiro+Wiggles and chaoser+sandro+Palmar or something, although I'm not too sure and I don't want to make unnecessary assumptions. EDIT: Also, Companion Cube is Wiggles. Remember Aperture? I seriously thought Companion cube was Wiggles at that point >_> + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Calming ET down] + By ET bleh I guess you're right, I didn't considr that we wouldn't be able to coordinate votes that well. This is rly tough without good townie partcipation. guess we ensure our survival and see how things play out Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I think we only have 15 votes accounted for right now. Ehmm, check my other post. I don't really want to risk any of you guys being below 9 or 8 votes for now. We can't bump WIggles to 6 and Palmar to 3-4 if that means we spend all our remaining 10 votes. Try to convince prphlz to give Palmar as few votes as possible. Maybe PM him that we will lynch chaoser alone so he should give us votes, and tell him to claim votes to you. I'm going to uni right now so I won't be able to do this either. I'll PM Meapak and tell him to convince prphlz to give us votes instead of putting 5 on Palmar or something. You say things like "pop us 3 another 3 votes" and stuff, and you say there will be 47 votes accounted for. ...and where are chaosers, sandroba's and Palmar's votes? Those are 15 votes, which means at most there can be 40 accounted votes. Or even 35 if Wiggles doesn't share them either. Just tell Palmar/Wiggles to pump all 5 votes on the 3 of you if they want to survive or something, perhaps they'll listen. Anyways, I'll leave Meapak some instructions, and I'll come back 1 or 2 hours before the deadline as well. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: We need to get chaoser lynched. Lets assume he gets 5 votes from cephiro. We've already spent 18 of our votes on us 3. 23 votes accounted for. Let's say we want to bump wiggles to 6, to ensure that chaoser gets lynched over him. If you want, we could put him at 5 but I really think we shouldn't lynch him. 29 votes accounted for. Bump us 3 another 3 votes a pop to keep things safe. 38 votes accounted for. We need to figure out what prplhz will do. My plan (and what I've made it seem like in thread) is that I want a single lynch on chaoser. We could deceive prplhz as such so that he'll spend votes on us, but we don't know what he will really do. let's just guess he puts 2 votes on Palmar and 1 on each of us. 43 votes accounted for. That leaves us 3 at 8 a piece, chaoser at 5, Wiggles a 6, Palmar at 2. We then can put 2-4 votes on Palmar depending on what we went 47 votes accounted for. Organize remaining votes to ensure chaoser lynch/ us not lynched/ maybe a multi lynch. Make it happen, brudder. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B sloosh] + By sloosh Ok, sending in so total of 3 MZ and 2 ET. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, we need to get you, MZ and ET to 10 votes first. Would you give your remaining 2 votes to MZ and ET? 1 to MZ and 1 to ET? Original Message by sloosh I need some help making sense of this mess. http://i.imgur.com/jRYZP.png Hard red / Green = confirmed flips, soft red/green are what they say they think. As with prplhz (since we eventually have to figure him out): D3&4 Round A shows both Cephiro and Sandroba in the minority. This leads me to believe there are three scum in the majority. I'm less inclined to think prplhz is scum because he is in minority with them, which means a team did 2-1 including ceph/sandro in majority twice, which I don't see as possible. He is listening to Palmar, and having reviewed Palmar's reads myself they are pretty consistent with voting patterns except he thinks katina is scum, which I'm having a hard time believing based on what Foolishness said about her. I'll be trying to PM prplhz to see more. Anyways, I'm down for chaoser lynch, still thinking about which of Wiggles / Palmar is scum (or both as I can see how this elaborate bus is happening where they will get town cred / drag the other scum team into this). Whatever you guys decide, I'm cooperating. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Katina] + By Katina Okay. So I sent in 2 to ET and sloosh. 1 to Meapak Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, would you give your 2 votes right now? We need to get sloosh, ET and MZ to 10 votes ASAP before the deadline gets here, if not we run the risk of Wiggles+Palmar doing some weird shit and getting one of you lynched. Since MZ already has 9 votes, I asked sloosh to give him 1, so you should give 1 vote to ET and 1 to sloosh, okay? + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B ET] + By ET wiggles said he would put votes on us 3, and I asked him to put more votes on me than the others. Palmar said 3 votes on MZ, 2 on sloosh or something like that. Unless they are lying, us 3 are mostly in the clear. I say give each of us 1 more, then put 6 votes on Wiggles. I'm saving my votes for that purpose. + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B me trying to save chaoser (…] + By ET alright. glhf mate Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah that sounds okay, I'll send my votes now and update the spreadsheet. Oh I'll PM MZ as well Also I'm going to eat now so I won't be able to do shit until the deadline Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I guess that's alright. At the end of the day, the reason why we couldn't pull this off correctly is because prplhz suddenly decided to not work with us. I told wiggles to 2voteSloosh, 1voteMZ, 2voteET, which should put us at 10/10/9. MZ gives 1voteSloosh,1voteET. Then we will be at 11/10/10. We will be fully in the clear. Then I give 2 votes to wiggles, you give 1 to MZ and 1 to Wiggles. OK? Original Message From gonzaw: Well, either way you'll have to feel like a douche since we can't give him a full 6 votes. I still think Wiggles is scum, and I don't want to save him. prphlz fucked up our plans to get Palmar lynched, but we can still get both Wiggles and chaoser lynched. We need to speculate how many votes chaoser would get though. Last time Cephiro gave chaoser 5 votes, but remember that he did so to get Sheth lynched, and because he knew Sheth gave MZ 5 votes. Right now hopefully scum don't know how the votes are. If prphlz is not scumbuddies with chaoser/Cephiro, then chaoser/Cephiro won't know how many votes Palmar will get. I doubt they think Palmar will get 5 votes either (again if Palmar isn't on their team). Even if that's the case, there's no guarantee Cephiro will even give chaoser 5 votes, or even 4. I know if we leave Wiggles at 0 he will definitely die and chaoser will live, but if we give Wiggles 5 votes then there's a chance Wiggles will live, AND there's the chance things get fucked up and MZ or you/sloosh get lynched. Something like 2-3 votes to give to Wiggles will be fine I think. There will be a higher chance chaoser dies with him, and in the event chaoser doesn't receive more votes than 3 chaoser will get killed instead. I say we do this, you give your 2 votes to Wiggles, and me and MZ give the remaining votes to you/sloosh/MZ, or I give 1 more vote to Wiggles. What do you think? Whatever happens though, we need to figure out wtf is up with prphlz and we need to get Palmar lynched later. Also, I doubt MZ will give Wiggles any votes, and I don't plan to convince him otherwise. Original Message From EchelonTee: gimme a sec, thinking things out. I feel like a douche but I guess it has to be like that. The thing is if we do things like this I feel like Wiggles is the only one who will die. If you think he has a good chance of flipping scum then OK I guess, but if we give him 0 votes I highly doubt that chaoser will also get 0 votes. I agreed to give wiggles 6 votes in return for us controlling his votes but I did say I would try, no guarantees. I just feel bad about that. Original Message From gonzaw: We need to tell him to spread his votes, so he can't do something weird. Palmar said he put 3 votes on Meapak and didn't spread his votes, which makes me uneasy. If he makes a gambit and is a little bit lucky, he can get MZ lynched. Anyways, Katina and sloosh already claimed their 2 remaining votes, so now we need to figure out what to do with our own votes. I don't think we should give Wiggles 6 votes. That means one of you guys will have less than 10 votes and not be safe (considering chaoser/Palmar/Wiggles will be at 5 or so votes without taking into account chaosers and sandros, or someone else lying about them). Also, just to be safe so we don't run out of time, tell Wiggles to vote now. EHmm, something like this: 2 votes to you (ET), 2 to sloosh and 1 to MZ. That will leave sloosh and MZ with 10, but you on 9. One of us (MZ and me) will give you 1 vote, and then we see what to do with the rest. Sounds okay? Original Message From EchelonTee: Yeah, for now. He has 5 open votes. I don't think he will openly lie about his votes or else he's claiming scum. He would only do it to fulfill some gambit. Original Message From gonzaw: Oh alright. I thought Wiggles had already voted, so if he said he voted ET, sloosh and MZ, at least he would have given 1 vote each. I should take his votes out then? Original Message From EchelonTee: Wiggles hasn't sent in his votes yet, I said that I would PM him what to vote before deadline, because I told him that I would try and get 6 votes on him. Wait, looking at your spreadsheet, it says that Wiggles claimed 3 votes? Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah nevermind, MZ is at 9 now, so I told sloosh to give him one to get him to 10. That means that I'll tell Katina to give you and sloosh 1 vote, not MZ + Show Spoiler [D4 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Told Wiggles to vote ET and me, sorry if this contradicted your plan. Hope he's sent in his votes, should I tell him to disregard? Need to read all PMs before responding :/ Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Give 1 vote to sloosh and 1 to ET. We decided that we'll give Wiggles 3 votes, since it's more likely chaoser will get some votes of his own. That way we can get both of them killed (we'll need to be lucky, but there's nothing else we can do). If you still have doubts check the spreadsheet, I'm updating the votes (and Wiggles supposed votes that ET will tell him to vote) as well. + Show Spoiler [N4 Meapak] + By Meapak It'll be interesting to see if the scum team with only 1 person tries to shoot into the other team tonight. Either way I have a feeling I'll be dead. At this point we just gotta stick together and keep on carrying on. I'd pair up again like last time. prpl might actually be scum pending on whether he'll work with our circle now that we've killed a scum. Cephiro and sandroba really need to die. Wiggles probably needs to die as well, the only other alternative is that Katina is scum but that seems really unlikely given how good foolishness's reads were (chaoser is another clutch of feathers in his hat). Also she's worked with us without complaint. Also I was right about chaoser being on the same team as BC, I bet that's why cephiro is so butt hurt right now, because I absolutely destroyed his team + Show Spoiler [N4 ET] + By ET K; I'm desparately hoping that Yokoya shoot into the other scum family out of spite or something like that, otherwise me, you and MZ are on deck to be pewpew'd =/ I'm going to prepare a phat post of all my thoughts tonight, but here's a rough sketch of my reads. Strong town gonzaw M_Z Leaning town Wiggles Katina Need to be scrutinized prplhz sloosh Strong scumread Palmar Sandroba Cephiro Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I'm going to my dad's house to stay for the night today, and I won't be around for the Night flip. If I die, make sure to try and organize the votes to get Cephiro and sandro lynched at all costs if they get into the majority, and Wiggles or Palmar depending on who is in the majority as well. Also, I will come back on Saturday kind of late, so if I still live I won't be around to plan the Round A votes, so if you guys plan something just PM me what to vote and I'll vote that when I come home. If you make a spreadsheet with votes, I'd say you should only share it with the one that's still alive of me and MZ, just in case, alright? + Show Spoiler [N4 ET] + By ET Strong town gonzaw-too constructive to be scum, hammered cephiro early M_Z-came out strong D3; there was no reason for him to do this, town was stagnating as it was. The only weird thing is suddenly shifting his opinion on Palmar, but changing mind on someone within a very short period of time is actually a town tell Leaning town Wiggles-though he only pushed palmar when pressed on it, I agree with his read a lot. I doubt he would've done that as Palmar's scum buddy, and there's no way he's Yokoya. has been fairly open for most of game Katina- though people say her style "sucks", I find it to be pretty forthright and clear. The problem is that her as scum looks a lot like this; though overall she looks good, she could be a very hidden scum. Watch out for. Need to be scrutinized prplhz- has been acting very strange lately. saved palmar, uncooperative. He's not scum just for not talking to us a lot, but he seems to have a complete disinterest in scumhunting, and is strangely "sure" of Palmar being scum. He should be at the least uncertain in some ways. sloosh- you say he's been good in PMs; based only on thread, I don't see him doing anything, and I'm used to him being more diplomatic. D2 SOAF, he was a lot better than this, remember? This is a toughie. Strong scumread Palmar - Palmar's D4 results for reads - Ace-mislynch. VE-mislynch, Sheth-mislynch, BC-bandwagoned, chaoser-bandwagoned. harps on Katina and others for little to no reason. He stopped being very constructive after D2/3 Sandroba- has completely stopped making reads, and lied to prplhz about where he was going to vote, lied about last nights vote. either he's completely and utterly given up, or more likely he is scum Cephiro-he's probably yokoya who did WIFOM to try and live, by not voting chaoser; he's had a million chances to be townie + Show Spoiler [D5 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak Ugh prpl is making me nervous. I'm out for much of today, tell me how to vote and I'll send it in from my phone. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Don't post the chart in the thread or give it to anyone else. If scum get hold of it, then they can just fuck it up as much as they can since anyone can edit it. Even more if you post it in the thread and they can do it anonymously + Show Spoiler [D5 Round A ET] + By ET Wiggles/Sandroba already voted yes. If you want them to die, we can force them into majority. Sandroba might be lying, but I doubt Wiggles is. Cephiro might vote No anyways. I say we either do a full split, or force Yes to be the majority with the chance to hit Sandroba/Wiggles. Full Split: gonzaw/ET MZ/Katina Wiggles/sloosh Palmar/prplhz Force yes: gonzaw/ET/sloosh vote yes MZ/Katina vote No. which one? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: So...how do we vote right now? I think I'm going out in a couple of hours, so if we are going to plan something with lots of players then it has to be fast + Show Spoiler [D5 Round A ET] + By ET I sent everyone this PM: Hey, we're going to slightly stack Yes to try and get Wiggles/Sandroba killed. Votes as such: gonzaw/ET/sloosh vote yes MZ/Katina vote No. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I think I'll vote YES. If sandro/Wiggles say the truth it will be great to get them into the majority, at least to kill sandro alone if you want to let Wiggles alone for now. I don't know how you guys want to vote though, if you want to split or not. Maybe we can "imply" in the thread that we'll be voting NO or something, so more scum are inclined to vote YES, but I don't know how that would work. + Show Spoiler [D5 Round B ET] + By ET Mmm, we might've stacked too many votes into yes TBH, but it worked out. I'll be active again in a few hours. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Fuck Yeah! We can lynch both sandro and Cephiro today, or at least one of them. We can even let Wiggles live one more day, just so nothing weird can happen and we kill only sandro and Ceph today. We need to come up with the votes though, there are 7 players up for the lynch, yet only 50 votes in total. That means that each player is safe with 8 votes, so we should just get all of us to 8 first. I'll make another spreadsheet, and link it to you and MZ + Show Spoiler [D5 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Perfect, let's do this. It'll make it super concrete and ensure the correct people die. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I think I've come up with a plan for the votes. Here it's the PM I sent ET about it: Hide nested quote - I'm trying to come up with the voting pattern thing in the spreadsheet, check it if you want. The point is this: We should try to get every player, barring Cephiro and sandroba (whose votes are unaccounted for), to give each other votes so each one arrives at 8 votes. Those are: Mr Wiggles, me, sloosh, Katina, Meapak, you, prplhz and Palmar. 8 people, with 5 votes, meaning 40 votes total. There are 5 people to "save": Mr Wiggles, me, sloosh, you and prplhz. If those 40 votes go to those 5 people, then each will have 8 votes. Imagine somehow Cephiro gives his 5 votes to sandro, and sandro gives his 5 votes to Cephiro. Then they would have 5 votes each. Now, we assume the rest of the players will go through their part of the deal and vote accordingly. This would mean that Ceph+sandro would have 5 votes each and get lynched, while the other players would have 8 votes each and be safe. But what happens if one of those that were supposed to contribute to the 40 votes to get each one of us 8 votes, decides to just out himself as scum and fuck with us? He can give, for instance 3 votes to sandro and 2 votes to Cephiro. That would put sandro at 8 votes and safe from the lynch, and Cephiro at 7 votes. Since he had to put votes on someone else to get him to 8, then it means at least 1 player will have less than 8 votes. If he has less than 7, he will get lynched alone. If he has exactly 7, he will be lynched along Cephiro. So there's a chance that a single scum outside of Cephiro/sandro can out himself to save those 2 and get 1 or more other players lynched. If sandro is Yokoya, then there would be Cephiro plus 2 unknown scum in the other scum team. 1 of those can out himself if it means he can lynch sandro plus a whole lot of townies with 7 votes. Just in case I want to plan the votes to counteract that, so at least 2 other scum have to out themselves to lynch someone, or that if 1 scum outs himself to save sandro/Ceph, then at least you or me won't be the lynch. I thought that maybe we can have Katina, me, you and Meapak give us 2 all the votes necessary to achieve 8 votes. I doubt one of us is scum, and if he were I doubt he would just out himself right now by getting 1 of us lynched. Then I thought about having Palmar/Wiggles/sloosh/etc to give the votes to the remaining players in batches of 2 and 3 votes. That way if any of those decide to "out" themselves to save sandro/Ceph, at least they would get one of that pool of players lynched and not me/you. What do you think? Look at the spreadsheet if it confuses you (I'll try to complete it now that I'm at it) + Show Spoiler [D5 Round B ET] + By ET Yeah... I could only see him doing that if they decided to collaborate or something. Won't help them anyways. My theory on the night kills is that it's something akin to SOAF. Each scum team gets to choose a number of people that they would like to kill, and if they both choose the same people, that person dies. I don't know how they would calculate how many people get to be chosen, but it would make sense why some nights there are kills, sometimes multiple, and sometimes none. It also encourages scum team coordination, similar to how town has to cooperate to get things done. Up a creek with no paddle = expression for I am completely screwed, for my final, that is. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Wut? Yeah, there's is not much to do anyways, just wait until Cephiro/sandro die. I really hope Cephiro doesn't actually give votes to sandro (why would he save someone from the other scumteam?) and we kill them both, that would be sweet. Then again, maybe he does give him votes just so we WIFOM about it later :/ Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I got a final tomorrow and am up a gdam creek with no paddle; I sent in my votes tho. I have a feeling Cephiro lied about his votes, so I hope we can get a double kill. be back tomorrow; I also hope today's flip/tonights kills shed more light on the current game scenario. Original Message From gonzaw: What do you think about Cephiro's vote claim on sandro? If sandro is Yokoya and Cephiro is not, then it wouldn't make much sense, unless 1 or more other scum out themselves to give Cephiro more than 5 votes. If sandro is Yokoya, I think it's most likely Cephiro is bluffing. He is lying and won't vote sandro at all. Maybe he does this so we think "Crap, Cephiro will give sandro 5 votes, the only way to lynch both of them is to give Cephiro 5 votes". So then we give Cephiro 5 votes, yet Cephiro wouldn't actually give sandro a single vote, effectively killing sandro and surviving himself. Either that or he's scumbuddies with sandro and he's protecting him somehow (maybe sandro has a role or something). Either way, I think I prefer Cephiro dying. First of all he will stop shitting the thread with his dickish behaviour. Second, he's very likely Harimoto (or the other scum team) and not Yokoya. If we leave the remaining Yokoya alive, then he'll have 1 KP to use. Maybe he uses it on a townie, but hopefully he uses it on the other scum team and may even help us. Whatever the case, killing the other scum team is a priority to be honest, we can't afford to be 4-3 with the other scum team at all. What do you think? There's the chance Cephiro is Yokoya and sandro Harimoto, but then I don't really get Cephiro's behaviour or what he wants to do. + Show Spoiler [N5/D6 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak I like what's here and I agree with it. What do you think about Katina being scum though? She's been just as useless as several other of the final players. Fuck this game man, aside from you, me, ET, WBG, and syllo, the rest of the town has done nothing. I'm gonna have a fairly lengthy post to make in post game about worthless townies. Anyway I don't want to reveal our reads to the thread so that people will have more of an incentive to cooperate with us. Also if prplhz flips scum I'm really gonna pat myself on the back lol. Also wtf is up with night kills -_-. This game is seriously pissing me off right now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: What do you think about a Palmar/prphlz scumteam? I can definitely see Palmar scum right now, there's no way he's town and one of you/ET have the chance of being scum. prplhz's behaviour was very suspicious this whole game, and I've repeated that several times. However I always forgot how he wanted to save Palmar so much all of a sudden. The ONLY read he gave on Palmar was this: Hide nested quote - Palmar because syllogism says so. Well, primarily because syllogism says so, those two have impeccable reads on each other. Other than that he also looks townie enough to me, I think he looks a little more ... "directionless" as scum, like he doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to be doing. And that was in a fricking PM with me after I had to pressure him out of it. He's very quiet these days, just wanted to kill chaoser/Wiggles only because they were the only "acceptable" targets from the majority that weren't Palmar (of course he never gave any reads of why he wanted to kill them). He is so intent on saving Palmar out of nowhere. If it weren't for his 5 votes on Palmar the other day Palmar could have been lynched (if it wasn't for chaoser's 5 votes on him, don't really know why chaoser did that tbh). Seems that he doesn't even care about "outing" himself with Palmar if it means he can give his 5 votes freely to him to keep them at 3 scum until the game ends. Wiggles' case on Palmar, and several others are spot on. He just doesn't care about scumhunting or doing anything, nor is active in PMs nor does shit. He just says things like "Yeah the scum is definitely on this list [shows random list]", "Katina is scum lolz", "Meapak is town because he thinks I'm town, that's legit". There's no way he would be so passive as town, specially at fricking Night 5 (this is not Day 2 or anything). Yeah, I think a Palmar/prphlz scum team makes sense. The remaining one is either sloosh or Wiggles, and I'm not sure. I guess it doesn't make much sense for Wiggles to be in the same scum team as Palmar, but to be honest they hadn't even mentioned each other at all the whole game until Wiggles just came up with that case on him. Of course, Wiggles pathetic behaviour up until he was called out doesn't help him. If he isn't then sloosh should be their scumbuddy. And to be honest I can see him be scum, specially after he told me he thought prphlz was town without any convincing reasoning. Another funny thing, Wiggles and sloosh/Radfield voted the same EVERY SINGLE DAY. Might seem like a coincidence though, but the point is that if Palmar and prplhz are scum, we can't figure out which one of sloosh/Wiggles is scum by analysing the votes. The votes from sloosh/Wiggles, prplhz and Palmar indicate they can be scum as well, since it's always split 2-1. What do you think? If I die tonight be sure to put Palmar/prplhz under scrutiny or get them lynched. After that keep a close eye on Wiggles/sloosh to figure out who's the last scum from them. Oh yeah don't fucking forget about sandroba, and get him lynched after killing Palmar/prplhz. Let's hope he kills one of them at least before we lynch him. (Yeah I'm sending this exact PM to ET too because I'm lazy ) + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak Honestly I'd rather kill sandroba. We really need to just get scum numbers down, that's the part the retarded cephiro didn't realize. Scum KP is weird for some reason so it's all gonna come down to lynches and that's why I feel we need to stick with sandroba. He's basically been confirmed scum since day 1 and I really don't want to put off killing him anymore. Also in regards to sloosh, I feel Katina is much more likely to be scum than he is. Sloosh has been nothing but cooperative with us, and while it could have been because he knew we were on the wrong track (if we are and he's scum), he wouldn't have known that until after he decided to work with us. My read on him is that he really has no idea what the hell is going on and has just decided to sheep you, me, and ET. I could see a wiggles, palmar, prplhz, katina (in any combination of three) much more easily then I could see sloosh in there. Anyway I really think we need to just kill sandroba and get that over with. If there was any rational for leaving him alive it was that he'd shoot into the other scum team, clearly that's not going to be the case so it's better just to kill him and be done with it. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I find Palmar's reasons for thinking sloosh/prplhz town very convinient. Basically, prplhz just sheeped the hell out of him and syllo and that makes him "confirmed town" in his eyes. If say, they were to be scumbuddies it seems a very convenient way to have a town read on one another. Same with sloosh/Radfield. He thinks Radfield was town because we supported a case against chaoser? Are you kidding me? We already caught a suspected Yokoya (sandroba), so anybody else's interactions with chaoser don't matter. Also again he thinks he's town because he sheeped/supported him on D1 and apparently he "claimed" to him. Again, it would be very convenient if both were scum. However, the fact that he just doesn't mention Wiggles AT ALL makes me uneasy. Fuck let's kill Palmar first and then figure that out. Maybe we can implement something like we said before. 2 of us vote NO (for instance), and we tell Palmar/prplhz to vote NO as well (we tell them that we want to lynch Wiggles by having him vote YES or something). Then we tell the rest to vote YES and 1 other person to vote NO as well. Something like this: What we tell Palmar/prplhz about the votes: YES: ET, MZ, sandroba, Katina NO: Palmar, prplhz, gonzaw, sloosh We then tell him that we'll do that to have Wiggles in the majority no matter what (and we will kill Wiggles in Round B), and that we'll try to convince Wiggles to vote YES so we can kill sandro as well (or something). Maybe if we tell them "Yeah we plan on killing Katina as well" it will be easier to convince them >_> What we will actually vote: YES: MZ, sandroba, Katina, Wiggles NO: Palmar, prplhz, gonzaw, ET, sloosh The only difference is ET voting NO instead of YES. ALL the other votes won't change, meaning it will be easier to pull this off. If we tell Katina to vote YES, then she will vote YES. If Palmar/pprlhz ask her about the vote she won't lie about it, only we (me/you/ET) will actually know how the votes will go and only we have to lie to them about it. What do you think? I just came up with it and maybe there's a better way around it, so toss ideas if you can. (Again, I'm lazy as hell so I'll PM ET this same PM >_> ) + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak Here's what ET sent me. I'm not opposed to doing this, it'll get at least one of our targets in the majority. Show nested quote + Original Message From EchelonTee: I have an essay due tonight, then I will be done with finals and able to commit more time. Let's just do a standard split; we'll nail some of sandroba/wiggles/palmar and proceed from there. yes/no Me/Gonzaw You/Katina Sloosh/Wiggles (if he listens) Can you PM the people telling them to follow this? Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: How do you want to work it? Gonzaw is gone so you and I need to think up something sooner rather than later. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Wiggles] + By Wiggles I already sent in Yes =/ Just sent it in 10 minutes ago. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: You should vote NO today. Again, plan to split the vote to get scum (Palmar/sandro/etc) into majority no matter what + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A sloosh] + By sloosh Voting NO Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Change of plans. Someone who was supposed to vote NO already voted YES; so please vote NO. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak So I'll be voting yes to counter Katina then. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Nope, only: Katina, sloosh, Wiggles, prplhz. Told Katina, sloosh and prplhz to vote NO, and Wiggles told me he voted YES. A sandro+Palmar/prplhz multilynch would be great. If we manage to keep the votes secret, we could even get all 3 lynched as well, assuming prplhz gives Palmar 5 votes, and we say something like "Fuck it we are killing sandro alone today" so Palmar/prplhz don't get more votes. We then give prplhz+sandro 5 votes each and get all 3 killed. If 2 of them end up in the majority, then if it's sandro+ one of palmar/prplhz we can multilynch. If it's Palmar+prplhz it will be harder, since I don't know who they'd try to save of those 2. If there aren't any night kills from now on, maybe we do have a chance of winning lynching single scum, but that's a risk since it's impossible to know if there will be a night kill or not. However we've been lucky these past 2 days so maybe we get more lucky the next ones. Original Message From Meapak Have you PM'd everyone else? I think we're gonna need to multilynch if we have any shot of winning this game. Original Message From gonzaw: Well, Wiggles told me he already voted YES, so I told sloosh to vote NO instead. Since Palmar voted NO, I told prplhz to vote NO as well (told him we would try to get sandro/Wiggles lynched or some other shit). Hopefully, all Palmar/sandro/prplhz vote NO if they fall for that. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Katina] + By Katina Sounds good. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay got a plan from MZ/ET You should vote NO today. We are trying to split the vote to get some scum in the majority Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: Is there a plan for today? I PMed EchelonTee earlier but he didn't say anything. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round A Katina] + By Katina Well, you me ET have been coordinating our votes for the past 5 days. We have Meapak with us now, and I assume someone is telling prphlz what to vote as well (and he's cooperating). So my question is which players are not being told what to do and are voting of their own accord? I'm guessing sandroba and Palmar are not part of the group. Is Wiggles part of the group? Sloosh? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Well, you'll find out in 40 minutes But lol, really I don't know what you mean, what do you mean by "not part of the organization"? I told quite a few people how to vote, some of them are the ones we are trying to get into majority and others that don't. Just so nothing funny happens we'll reveal that right before the deadline or after it. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Katina: Which players are voting that are not part of the organization? Needs to be known to figure out who is on the mafia team with 3 players. They are obviously not going to have all 3 members vote together. And I bet it's been that way the entire game. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak (the plan)] + By Meapak Ok I have an idea of how to pull off a triple kill but I'll need to take a bit to write it out. The idea is that we tell prp, palmar that we're going to kill sandroba and have them delegate out their votes like last time (in groups of 2 and 3) so that they don't get suspicious. We can even have Palmar give a vote to prp or vice versa to get the completely at ease. Then we just fill in sandroba for whatever amount that palmar and prp have accumulated and boom, triple kill. I don't think any one but you, me, and ET should know we're going for a triple. Just tell katina and sloosh we're killing sandroba. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Here is the voting sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDd4OU10S3JTc1EwZFAtQUtZSlJENXc#gid=0 If we plan to lynch Palmar, sandro and prplhz all together, then we should: Get me, Katina and sloosh to 8 votes Have at least 5 votes to spare to dump some votes into sandro or one of Palmar/prplhz to ensure a multilynch I'm trying to come up with something that fulfills that (check the spreadsheet to know what I'm talking about), and also that buffers some lone scum (other than sandro/Palmar/prplhz) to try something funny and fuck up the votes Also, damn I guess we need to make cases and post our thoughts in the thread as well so people know what we are talking about >_> I'll do that tomorrow most likely, it's very late now (Again, same PM sent to ET/MZ because of laziness) + Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Alright take a look at what I've got. Remember, the real spreadsheet is the number of votes you're actually going to be getting (you're not getting as many in the phony one). I think what I've got can work... and if it doesn't I'm out of ideas. If you've got any improvements go ahead, just make sure both sheets reflect the changes. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, I was playing around with it a little bit and came up with one system, but it seems too "weird" and random, and there's no real way to justify the placement of each vote. Yeah I'm going to sleep in a few moments. You can edit the spreadsheets so do whatever you can. Try for BOTH spreadsheets to have this: Protection for me against some random scum doing whatever he wants Justifications for each vote given (for instance like the whole 2-3 thing we did last day) And yeah some other things that make the phony system convincing. You can also tell the thread something like: "We were planning on killing Palmar today but I convinced ET and gonzaw to try and kill sandro alone today. We desperately need to kill scum, even if it's Yokoya so we can't go wrong with a sole sandroba lynch today. This is how each of you should vote so everybody except sandro get 8 votes and we avoid some random scum fucking up with the votes (or some other shit): [phony spreadsheet]" Or something Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I'm gonna finish up some hw and then I'm gonna spend some time on the spreadsheets tonight. + Show Spoiler [D6 Round B ET] + By ET K, sent in my votes Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I think I came up with something. Check the spreadsheet. What voting like this will do: If everybody from said list votes according to plan, me, sloosh and Katina will have 8 votes each, and me, ET and MZ will have 2 votes each to spare to try to achieve a multilynch, or to keep them just in case Worst possible scenario that can happen is: Palmar, sandro and prplhz giving 5 votes to each other (somehow). In this case, then if 1 other person outs himself to give his 5 spare votes to them, he can only do it like 1-2-2 at best, meaning that if 1 scum outs himself, at best he can get one of Palmar/sandro/prplhz to 6 votes. If that "Player X" is one of sloosh/Wiggles/Katina, then they can only get sloosh/Katina lynched (since they give me 2 votes but sloosh/Katina 3 at most). If that "Player X" is ET or MZ...well then you got me guys you can get me lynched! (you take away yoru 2 votes on me, so I get to 6 and get lynched alongside the 1 from sandro/Palmar/prplhz). This is very unlikely to happen, but even if you were scum, and even if you were to do it, then I won't get lynched alone and will likely take a scum down with me, AND you will be outed as scum. This is a pretty sweet deal as well, and I wouldn't mind dying to achieve it (so if any of you two is scum, go for it ). This whole scenario is also unlikely since it dwells on Palmar/prplhz giving sandro 5 votes, which I don't think will happen at all. I can see Palmar/prplhz giving 5 votes to each other though. Sounds good? If sloosh/Wiggles/Katina is scum and decide something funny, at worst they can get sloosh/Katina lynched and I'm completely safe from the lynch. Palmar/prplhz/sandro can't do anything themselves since their votes are unaccounted for. We will have 6 spare votes between the 3 of us to try and get a multilynch, depending on what prplhz/Palmar claim they will vote, etc. However, if we do dump 6 votes on Palmar/sandroba/prplhz, then things could get messy if someone else outs himself as scum, but meh I doubt it will happen PRE-EDIT: Okay MZ has a plan as well, but it means having 2 different spreadsheets with different votes, one which we'll keep to ourselves and one which we'll give to everybody else. We need to plan that thoroughly though, but we have time + Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak That's what I did. Now we just have to wait :/ Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: So 2 on sandro, 2 on Katina and 1 on prplhz, right? Yeah lol, I keep always thinking "Wait, what if I sent the wrong votes and I fuck everything up? Oh dear!" Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: That looks right. I sent sandroba 2 so this means he'll have five which is the number we wanted. I was super nervous sending mine in as well lol. Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, I'll send my votes: 2x sloosh 3x sandroba That was the plan right? (just making sure I'm not confusing the spreadsheets and voting like the "phony" one >_> ) + Show Spoiler [D6 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak I assumed you had seen the results and were raging. Protact didn't tell me anything I'm just assuming. Can't be long now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: lol why? Did you think the post already went up or something? Did Protact tell you that? If so.....damn longest 6 minutes of my life. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: God dammit don't send me PMs with that subject. I think it'll be in 6 minutes. Original Message From gonzaw: Where is the damn Night post!? This is so fucking intense, I'm just waiting for all 3 of them to flip mafia or something, but Protactinum is killing me with the wait! + Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] + By Meapak We have control of the thread and no one can take that from us. Let's try and bring it home because at this point the loss would be on us as well (not all of it but a portion). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah, let's focus on that tomorrow, no need to multilynch Wiggles+Katina+sandro and get sandro to survive another day by fucking with us more. Yeah, I suppose nobody saw that coming either. I think we may have scared the shit out of scum though, like even Palmar followed the plan perfectly. This should let the scum out of Katina+Wiggles+sloosh know that even if they "follow" our plans and "support" us it doesn't mean we think they are town. Hopefully those scum slip more, etc. Even better is that those scum can't really do anything. If we have a plan for them to vote a certain way, then they have to follow it, since voting differently than that without even consulting so before is a scum claim and they would out themselves. I think we have a good chance of winning this, as long as the 3 of us (me, ET, you) are alive, or at least 1 or 2 of us. Although now we got scum from both families killed (chaoser and Palmar), I doubt somebody will suddenly start thinking we are scum or anything, making scum more pressured to follow our plans, even if it means killing them. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Yeah we need to stop fucking around and kill sandroba. I think the important part is that you and I have control and scum know it. We can pick anyone who doesn't work with us out. I gaurentee you no one saw the palmar kill coming. Original Message From gonzaw: Well fuck, it changes some reads of mine. I thought that only one of sloosh/Wiggles would be scum, but it may seem like both are. Yes Wiggles is very likely scum at this point, but I think sloosh is more likely scum than Katina tbh (again, same reasons I stated before). I'll try to check the voting patterns of a Palmar+Wiggles+??? scum team and see how it goes. Also, would you agree with what I said in the thread? If there are no night kills tonight, perhaps we can kill sandro once and for all. We just have 3 people vote NO, and 3 vote YES, sandro will be in the majority no matter what (Wiggles+sloosh+Katina all "cooperated" with us before so we can get them to do it again). Then we instantly kill him and get rid of him and then we'll just be 4 town vs 2 Harimoto, and sandro won't be there to fuck our plans. If there are night kills, well, then we are practically toast if there are 2, but if there is 1 then we need a multi lynch, preferably of Wiggles+sandro, and maybe someone else. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: That went neutral. We got a scum, sandroba proved he will be easy to kill, and we got prplhz out of the way. The problem is the remaining scum from Palmar's team. I'm really thinking katina hbu? + Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] + By Meapak Well look at what Katina's done, Palmar's been her number one scum read and she hasn't done shit to push it. I haven't read your other PMs so I'm gonna peruse those now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Check the votes and shit here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdGlhekd5dU9rVkdJZDlzWnFybmFSV2c#gid=0 (it seems nobody even uses it, why did I even bother making it? >_> ) If we assume Palmar+Wiggles scumteam, then Palmar and Wiggles vote the opposite each day, except Day 4. The votes are like this: YES: chaoser, ET, MZ, Wiggles, Palmar, sloosh NO: Cephiro, gonzaw, Katina, prplhz, sandroba If sloosh were their scumbuddy, then it means that all 3 scum voted the same thing (YES) on that day. It would seem like it wouldn't make sense for them to do that on Day 4 (I would understand them doing it on D1 to confuse us, but maybe not on D4). Palmar+Wiggles+Katina scumteam has them split the vote 2-1 each day, so it's consistent. Although that would mean Katina would be bussing the hell out of Palmar throughout the whole game :/ Meh, I guess it's possible though, I mean Wiggles would bus the hell out of Palmar with that case of his as well. Yeah, a Palmar+Wiggles+Katina scum team makes more sense, if you can find anything else that supports it then even better. + Show Spoiler [N6 Meapak] + By Meapak Yup this looks good. Now don't freak out when I say this but I want to try the multilynch again. This time to ensure it's success our multilynch target will have zero votes along with sandroba. Now it'll take me a bit to conceptualize fully but I think we can do it. Again, don't freak out on me here, just give me a bit to fully flesh out what I'm thinking. And I would limit your posting over the night. Let's make a doc tomorrow to give to ET (because let's face it, if there are two scum kills they'll hit us). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I have a plan for letting sandro die tomorrow, but it can be done only if there aren't any night kills again. We have EVERYBODY vote like this: YES: ET, gonzaw, Katina NO: Wiggles, sloosh, Meapak That way, sandroba would be in the majority no matter what he votes. After that, we just make a simple plan to have everybody reach 9 votes and sandroba get 0, and we kill him. The problem is that if there is 1 night kill tonight, we can't do that and sandro may even force a draw. Again, if someone decides to vote differently we count it as a scum claim. I doubt they would though, if sandro is Yokoya even Harimoto would want him dead, and Wiggles/Katina/sloosh cooperated with us until now, and not doing so would be "out of character" from them and would INSTANTLY out them as scum. So I think this will work 100% Anyways, what do you think? Too bad these cycles feel so long. Like, we decide to kill sandro and we need to wait 72 hours to do it, and nothing happens in between. + Show Spoiler [N6 sloosh] + By sloosh Hey. I'm pretty certain the final scum is ET (along with sandroba and Mr. Wiggles). Watch his filter and see how he soft defends Mr. Wiggles multiple times. Of course this is only incriminating if you see Mr. Wiggles as scum, but me, katina and MZ think so which indicates that unless this is some stupid bus then townies think he is scum. I'm putting this in PM for reserve when the game progresses and you realize that the last scum is in between slOosh katina Meapak_Ziphh EchelonTee gonzaw and one of the four above are scum (from your perspective because I'm pretty certain you are town) As for your reservations with Radfield - if you look at the context the votes look weird because WBG messed up with the voting spreadsheet - Radfield was just following the town plan (instead of going lone ranger ala VE or Cephiro). I know Palmar toyed with pushing that idea before flipping and calling me townie - I'd be wary of people who use this. In the interest of transparency here is my PM with ET. I asked about the timestamps in the thread because I want to know if he brought my reads on prplhz when you guys discussed the plan - if he knew about the plan he knew the best he could do is rope in a dead townie (prplhz), and couldn't leak the information because it would indicate that the circle was compromised and result in intense scrutiny on both him and Palmar. *PMs with prplhz I think* I'm putting my suspicions of Meapak on hold because I find him going after both Palmar and Mr Wiggles very unlikely as scum (bus both teammates hard) and his flip where he calls Palmar town seems too risky for a scum ploy. You don't need to reply (if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them all), just keep it in mind, look at how he has been acting within your discussions and come to your own conclusion. You don't have to share your own reads, I'm not asking for information. Just keep it in mind - not going to bring it up in thread yet because we have to get sandroba and Mr. Wiggles lynched first and I don't want him to be aware. + Show Spoiler [N6 sloosh] + By sloosh Ah - received this while I was writing up my PM. Fishy is if ET withheld my prplhz read. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Why do you want the timestamps? What is that "fishy" thing you found? I may give you the PMs were we talked about it and the timestamp (beware that they are on GMT -3), but only if you tell us what you mean + Show Spoiler [N6 or D6 Round B I don't remembe…] + By ET Between Katina and MZ, I'm assuming you think Katina is slightly worse? I did mean it when I said that "fun fact: all flipped scum have targeted Katina"; though Katina isn't the most lively person, do you actually think she's scummy in anyway? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: So you gave me 3 votes and gave sloosh 2 then, right? + Show Spoiler [N6/D7 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak He sent me an identical PM to the one he sent you. He's either scum who realized he's gonna have to win through mislynching or dumb townie who doesn't understand that if ET was scum Palmar wouldn't have died. I haven't told him that he's a candidate for the last scum and I don't plan on making public my choice for the last scum until I've talked over it with you and ET. I'm curious to see who posts what today as I expect scum to start calling us into suspicion to try and undermine our control of the thread (like wiggles tried to lol). Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: So sloosh still "kind of" suspicious of you, yet he tells you his suspicions about ET? Did he tell you something else? But well, okay then, I'll PM everybody what to vote then. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I got the same thing from him. :/ I feel really confident that ET is town so it made me start to suspect sloosh. Your plan sounds good. I'm gonna play some LoL, I'll go through both sloosh and katina and see what sort of case I can create. Obviously I'll send you whatever I make first rather than just post it to the thread. Also I feel the same way about killing them all lol. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I got this PM from sloosh (after he mentioned the "timestamps" thing) Original Message From slOosh: Hey. I'm pretty certain the final scum is ET (along with sandroba and Mr. Wiggles). Watch his filter and see how he soft defends Mr. Wiggles multiple times. Of course this is only incriminating if you see Mr. Wiggles as scum, but me, katina and MZ think so which indicates that unless this is some stupid bus then townies think he is scum. I'm putting this in PM for reserve when the game progresses and you realize that the last scum is in between slOosh katina Meapak_Ziphh EchelonTee gonzaw and one of the four above are scum (from your perspective because I'm pretty certain you are town) As for your reservations with Radfield - if you look at the context the votes look weird because WBG messed up with the voting spreadsheet - Radfield was just following the town plan (instead of going lone ranger ala VE or Cephiro). I know Palmar toyed with pushing that idea before flipping and calling me townie - I'd be wary of people who use this. In the interest of transparency here is my PM with ET. I asked about the timestamps in the thread because I want to know if he brought my reads on prplhz when you guys discussed the plan - if he knew about the plan he knew the best he could do is rope in a dead townie (prplhz), and couldn't leak the information because it would indicate that the circle was compromised and result in intense scrutiny on both him and Palmar. *Pms with prplzh* I'm putting my suspicions of Meapak on hold because I find him going after both Palmar and Mr Wiggles very unlikely as scum (bus both teammates hard) and his flip where he calls Palmar town seems too risky for a scum ploy. You don't need to reply (if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them all), just keep it in mind, look at how he has been acting within your discussions and come to your own conclusion. You don't have to share your own reads, I'm not asking for information. Just keep it in mind - not going to bring it up in thread yet because we have to get sandroba and Mr. Wiggles lynched first and I don't want him to be aware. What do you think of it? Like, he thinks ET is scum because he "softdefended" Wiggles a couple of times. In fact, that may be an understatement since at one point ET publicly said he thought Wiggles was town, opposed his lynch and wanted to give him 6 votes to save him. And, he assumes ET "hid" sloosh's town read on prplhz from us or something However, it seems odd he would find ET suspicious like that, he may try to instill doubt into our circle by PMing only me his suspicions about ET. Then again they may be legit suspicions, but they are weak, and the manner seems odd. Ah fuck, I'm having so much doubts about Katina/sloosh/Wiggles, thank god we can kill all of them and still win. + Show Spoiler [D7 Round A ET] + By ET sent in my vote Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Just to remember, you should vote YES now. The votes will be like this: NO: gonzaw, MZ, sloosh YES: ET, Katina, Wiggles I already PMed sloosh/Wiggles/Katina to vote accordingly. There isn't much to it though, so I guess we have to wait until then. I PMed everybody individually. If I did the voting public, then sandro would know which players voted what and he could choose in what majority he will be (either the YES or NO majority). I don't want to give him info so he can decide (even if he'll 100% die). We should just put him in the dark as much as we can. I'll vote NO now, just so I don't forget (I always forget about voting and Protact always PMs me like 5 minutes before the deadline and I'm like "Wtf? I didn't vote? FUCK FUCK FUCK" lol ) + Show Spoiler [D7 Round A Katina] + By Katina Okay I just assumed you had a plan since last night since you thought up that other plan the night before. That's why I was asking. And like I said I'm trying to make sure these plans are coming from townies who are doing it for the town. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, vote YES We'll try to vote 3 YES/3 NO to get sandroba into majority no matter what. As you can see, this would only work if there were no night kills last night, so I wasn't "lying" or whatever you implied when I said it depended on what happened that night >_> [quote][quote] [quote][quote][/quote] | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 06:18 GMT
#1708
+ Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak (new plan)] + By Meapak I'm not sure I follow, why would we need two phony ones for katina/wiggles? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay then! Katina and Wiggles voted YES and sloosh voted NO. So we first need to see what sandro voted (meaning who is in the majority). If sloosh is in the majority alone, then we copy exactly what we did last day. However, I think we should "put" sandro's votes on me/ET/MZ because we can't count on them at all >_> If Katina and Wiggles are in the majority, well we need something more complex, we would need 3 spreadsheets, 2 phony ones (one where Katina would be the pseudo-lynch and one where Wiggles is) and 1 real one. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: bro I love it. It'll be best if our votes look odd, ET wasn't in on it last time so I think it should just be our votes which look funky. In fact it'd be great if we could come close to duplicating what we did yesterday in terms of how you and my votes look. I'm seriously loving this idea. I see you sent me a spreadsheet, I'll give it a looksy. Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I have an idea. I don't think it will actually work, but well it's better than just do nothing and make a boring plan to get sandro lynched alone. Let's make a similar plan as yesterday, have a "phony" voting system we will give everybody, and a "real" one which we will actually implement. Meaning, we all tell Katina/sloosh/etc how to vote, and we tell them "Me, ET and MZ will vote this way". However, in "secret" we vote another way. However, my plan is to actually vote that way, and actually get sandro alone. What I want to do is make sloosh/Katina/Wiggles think we will make another secret plan to get them lynched too (when in fact we won't). If that's the case, then perhaps that scum we target will panic and place his votes or tell a scumbuddy give him votes to save him. What I mean is, I want to scare scum into outing themselves, while not doing anything. For instance, imagine the majority is me, sandro, sloosh and Wiggles. Then I say something like: Okay, Wiggles, sloosh, you 2 give me your 5 votes. ET will give 5 votes to sloosh and MZ will give 5 votes to Wiggles. sandro will get 0 votes. Now, people will wonder "what an odd system, I think they have an ulterior plan". They see that you gave Wiggles 5 votes, and if you actually gave them to me you would get WIggles lynched. So if Wiggles is scum, his scum team may think "Damn, they plan on getting Wiggles lynched". Then perhaps Wiggles scumbuddy (perhaps Katina) gives WIggles votes to save him or something. However, in fact we would follow our promise and would actually give Wiggles 5 votes. See? I'm sure it's kind of stupid and unnecessary, but hell this game is boring as hell and we have nothing to do this next Round B, and maybe...just maybe it works and scum out themselves. What do you think? I was thinking of having a weird system with crossed votes. Like ET giving Wiggles 2 votes and sloosh 3, then you giving Katina 2, Wiggles 2 and sloosh 1, etc. That way there would be a lot of combinations that could get either Katina, sloosh or Wiggles lynched, and scum won't know which one we plan to "use". That way, all the scum from that group will feel threatened, and there's a higher chance they will out themselves. What do you think? + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] + By ET Reposted from what I sent to Sloosh. If I had to rate my reads it would be this, from most townie to least 0. ET 1. gonzaw 2. sloosh 3. Katina 4. M_Z 5. Mr. Wiggles 6. Sandroba I wouldn't cry if Katina or Sloosh was killed over M_Z because it's starting to look like scum have limited/gimped KP, but this is just what I'm feeling. ---------------------------- ORIGINALY SENT TO SLOOSH: Gonzaw's my most trusted town read, Sandroba my most sure scumread; from there it descends nebulously. With you, I don't exactly like how you acted earlier in the game but 1. you were a replacement and 2. that's semi-indicative of your town meta and 3. you've been really open in PMs. Earlier, it felt like you weren't very interested in contributing, but you've for the most part rectified that; you're one of the few posters (starting a day or two ago) who I felt was actually making posts to produce content. However, it's not the hardest thing in the world to be open in PMs and I'm sure you could fake it to make it. Overall though, just based off your tone in-thread I'd peg you as more townie than someone like Wiggles. Wiggles was acting a lot like his town self earlier in the game (makes plans, pushes people sort of but in a wishy way, facilitates discussions as an observer primarily), but the way he did that reactionary read towards Palmar, and the dismissive stance he has towards the town circle is sort of strange. He's always one for following plans and policy (as related through PMs), and the way he seems averse to our cooperation as opposed to conciliatary seems kind of false. He also only made his read on Palmar when pressed up the butt, which isn't inherently bad, but makes it so he doesn't really look very townie from it. He's a curious read; tbh when he was first getting pushed it felt a lot to me like a mislynch being pushed, but these days, I wouldn't mind him dying. Katina is a curious character. In all games I play with her she ALWAYS gets targeted, accused, etc., yet a lot of people acknowledge her as a strong player. Though her posting style seems really nooby (imo), her reads have been pretty good for most of the game, pegging chaoser/BC/Palmar, though it was through assistance (foolishness) that she made her reads. I don't think she has been "useless" in the slightest, as she has posted analysis on most of her reads. I could see her playing a "bus all my teammates endgame" style of play, but I feel like that would be really suboptimal in a game like this; she did a tactic like that in Arkham City, but that game had a load of super scummy weird as butt posters (Bill Murray, RGTS) that could be lynched over her. In this game, especially as it is starting to look like scum have limited or gimped KP, having Katina's style to try and bus all teammates to the end seems pretty unlikely. Thus I can't comfortably pair her with either scum team; she's leaning townie in my book. Gonzaw I find townie for much of the same reason that I found WBG townie; they put an assload of work into the game for townie gain. Gonzaw has been making tons of spreadsheets, making plans with me, and overall tryign to keep life in the game. He does play a very active scum game, but when he's scum, he kind of inundates the thread with a lot of craziness. Though he did sort of do that with Cephiro, the craziness I am thinking of is a lot more scattered to keep town off balance. This gonzaw has been very focused and I can't see many scenarios in which he is scum. Sandroba I wanted to give a chance to work out his kinks, as I did for the most part towards prplhz, but it's pretty clear he doesn't give a fck about this game. I was partially swayed by my conversation with VE on sandroba, as he felt that he was being wrongfully accused, but by now Sandroba would've at least tried to engage in conversations with us in scumhunting, planning, etc. In converse to gonzaw, I don't see many scenarios where he can be town. Of course, I thought the same about Cephiro, but fingers crossed -.- M_Z is another curious character, and it's between him and Katina that I am primarily debating about. If it's between me, you, and gonzaw, you'd probably get the axe in my book, but I'd rather see Katina and M_Z flip before you. Reason for M_Z is that his entrance into the thread was a little curious. He came in extremely strong D3 and took control of the thread; while this is obviously good to keep momentum rolling, I'm always more partial to people who are continously constructive from D1. Unforunately these people, if paired with good reads, are always shot. M_Z coming in like that I could see from a scum perspective; he sees his team getting pewpew'd like flies or about to, so he makes a big push to get himself into the town circles. However, it is true that he has been working hard towards plans that postively affect the town. The thing is, gonzaw (and myself, I would argue), have been the main proginators of these plans. Me and gonzaw both independtly came up with the basic vote split Phase A, and me and him alternately organized skewing either the YES or the NO on various days to target people we found scummy. M_Z... I felt has got a lot of credit for not that much. The way he acted towards Palmar was strange, to say the least; he went from being quite sure he was scum, to completely thinking he was town. If we were to argue purely based on results, then M_Z hasn't made tht many great reads, though I suppose I haven't exactly either, but while others pushed their reads around early, M_Z has mostly been using reads that were developed and fine tuned by others. What makes it tough is that I don't know how he usually acts, and I could see his actions from town/scum perspective. One thing from the early game that I remember is M_Z coming out and saying "hey, I think you're super townie because of that post. keep it up bro". Buddying isn't inherently scummy of course, but looking back, I don't know why he would say something like that to me so early in the game, when no one is confirmed. It sounded like he was a bit sure that I was town; I guess I'm speculating a bit much here. If Wiggles flips town then I will probably pursue M_Z hard, but atm, we just need to see the people flip and move on from there. Thoughts? I'll probably repost this to gonzaw, and only him. --------------- Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: *sigh* I don't really know anymore. Okay, first of all Wiggles is scum, like not only because of his behaviour but just because of process of elimination. I was getting some scummy vibes out of sloosh, like his reaction to Wiggles, a PM he told me where he thought prplhz was town because of some bullshit reason, and some tiny things (like Radfield's previous behaviour, who barely scumhunted and just served as Palmar's "2nd right hand" in a way). But now he is saying some stuff that have a slight "town feel" to them or something Katina has been cooperative with us, but that's it. I mean, her posts don't seem scummy per se, and she FoSed pretty much all flipped scum by now (and flipped scum FoSed her in return). Does that mean she is town? Or is it a planned bus like the ones from Arkham City? I dunno, I just wish I could kill all of them at the same time and not worry about it too much. And I hope I don't come to a point where I have to be suspicious of any of you two (you/MZ). I think both of you are town and I'm playing under that assumption. Any of you two being scum just fucks up everything I've done so far. So far I haven't seen any indications that any of you 2 are scum, and by the way you two are acting, planning and trying to get town to win you are very likely town. If I assume that, then by process of elimination there are 2 scum on Katina/Wiggles/sloosh, and that's where I'm putting my effort. Do you find Meapak suspicious? + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] + By sloosh I would like to request putting 1 of my votes (from ET) onto katina. I think she is town. I don't want her to die in some convoluted double lynch plan. I find it strange how I am not allowed to vote for her. I am just PMing you alone, and would like it if you kept it to yourself until the night (or whatever it is) post. Me voting 4 ET 1 katina would result in ET at 12 Wiggles at 11 katina at 12 sandroba at 0 + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] + By ET Sent in 3 wiggle 2 katina, hope that's what you laid out. Respond to my reads bro Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey dude, me and MZ have come up with a plan (well, I came up with the plan and MZ agreed with it >_> ). Here, I'll give you the same PM I gave him: Hide nested quote - Hey, I have an idea. I don't think it will actually work, but well it's better than just do nothing and make a boring plan to get sandro lynched alone. Let's make a similar plan as yesterday, have a "phony" voting system we will give everybody, and a "real" one which we will actually implement. Meaning, we all tell Katina/sloosh/etc how to vote, and we tell them "Me, ET and MZ will vote this way". However, in "secret" we vote another way. However, my plan is to actually vote that way, and actually get sandro alone. What I want to do is make sloosh/Katina/Wiggles think we will make another secret plan to get them lynched too (when in fact we won't). If that's the case, then perhaps that scum we target will panic and place his votes or tell a scumbuddy give him votes to save him. What I mean is, I want to scare scum into outing themselves, while not doing anything. For instance, imagine the majority is me, sandro, sloosh and Wiggles. Then I say something like: Okay, Wiggles, sloosh, you 2 give me your 5 votes. ET will give 5 votes to sloosh and MZ will give 5 votes to Wiggles. sandro will get 0 votes. Now, people will wonder "what an odd system, I think they have an ulterior plan". They see that you gave Wiggles 5 votes, and if you actually gave them to me you would get WIggles lynched. So if Wiggles is scum, his scum team may think "Damn, they plan on getting Wiggles lynched". Then perhaps Wiggles scumbuddy (perhaps Katina) gives WIggles votes to save him or something. However, in fact we would follow our promise and would actually give Wiggles 5 votes. See? I'm sure it's kind of stupid and unnecessary, but hell this game is boring as hell and we have nothing to do this next Round B, and maybe...just maybe it works and scum out themselves. What do you think? I was thinking of having a weird system with crossed votes. Like ET giving Wiggles 2 votes and sloosh 3, then you giving Katina 2, Wiggles 2 and sloosh 1, etc. That way there would be a lot of combinations that could get either Katina, sloosh or Wiggles lynched, and scum won't know which one we plan to "use". That way, all the scum from that group will feel threatened, and there's a higher chance they will out themselves. What do you think? What do you think? Here is the "phony" spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDNVcjhEbGNKbUtaRjVfd1lJRklKR0E#gid=0 + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] + By sloosh his could be mostly because she is the most transparent in thread. Honestly I have no idea what you three are thinking and you yourself have acknowledged that you withhold information from us three (which I totally understand and agree with). It's just natural to trust people who are open. I've never played with her so I'm not aware of her hard bussing capabilities. Katina has indeed pointed out scum in both teams. To be honest I have somewhat sheeped foolishness' read as well so that may have clouded my judgement on her, and her consternation of my votes does reveal her fear of getting double lynched, which could mean she is trying to use me (no doubt that the final scums are trying to find any support that they can). I will revisit her posts in context and my PMs with her. I can see the possibility of her being scum. I guess the biggest lesson I'm learning this game is that even the best veterans aren't infallible - it just feels like their town reads have the same weight as a DT check, esp. coming from someone like Foolishness. Mmm. I'm still down for lynching Wiggles for sure. In any case we have to consider the possibility of having an all town majority and so we need to make sure we have a good lynch target in both sides of the question. I don't mind being put in majority if it comes down to it. It just exonerates me when I follow the plan and we get scum lynched. Well, I guess now not as much because its 2 scum in separate families, but you get my point. You might hear from me once more tonight, but most likely I won't be able to reread till tomorrow sometime. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Meapak doesn't PM with you, nor Katina/Wiggles for a reason. Me and Meapak think the 2 remaining scum are in the 3 of you. We can't go around telling you 3 our reads when there would be only 1 townie in your group. Also some of our plans hinge on keeping info from you 3. I don't find that "trying to gain credit" thing suspicious at all. It's true, me and Meapak have been doing most of the plans lately and I can attest that. ET has been part of some, and he's been been more active with plans from Day 2 to Day 4 mostly, so it's not like he wants to "steal" credit or anything. Also, remember we thinking Katina is town, yet thinking the trio is town is not a contradiction either (i.e you could be scum). I was thinking Katina was town in the beginning (mostly trusting Foo's read), but she could be scum via a process of elimination. Yes, she has gone against members from both teams, but I know she's capable of bussing teammates hard, and if she's scum I don't see any real downfall in doing so this game, whether on Palmar or chaoser/BC (and sandro). As in, she just FoSes those guys, but I don't see her pushing for their lynch at all (or making plans to get them lynched, etc). I'll say that I'm very sure ET and Meapak are town. At this point mostly Meapak, because of his activity in PMs with me, and genuine care for town to win. ET because of his active cooperation, behaviour unlike SoaF, willingness to share reads, clarity of them, etc. Why are you so sure Katina is town though? I don't remember you thinking that before (I may have forgot though). Hide nested quote - Original Message From slOosh: I have been PMing both Meapak and EchelonTee to find the final scum (I think Wiggles, roba is scum, you and katina town so process of elimination). Now I have found a discrepancy which will shed light on one of their alignments: This concerns taking credit for plans. This first quote is interactions with Meapak concerning my suspicions on EchelonTee. Bolded is the sentence in question. Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I'm sorry to say is pretty much impossible, we three have lynched scum from both teams, if your theory was correct then we would have never been able to do that. ET was in on the switch yesterday, had he been scum he could have made it so that Palmar lived and prplhz/another townie (his choice) were killed. Had he done that it would be 3v4 instead of 4v3. I'll say this as well, all of the plans have been thought up so far by Gonzaw and myself so your suggestion that ET is the one pulling strings is false. HOWEVER, the post you made actually helped us a lot for reasons you'll see later. Today we're killing sandroba and moving from there. This next quote is interactions with Echelon concerning my suspicions on Meapak. Bolded is the sentence of note (he is talking about his read with Meapak) Original Message From EchelonTee: However, it is true that he has been working hard towards plans that postively affect the town. The thing is, gonzaw (and myself, I would argue), have been the main proginators of these plans. Me and gonzaw both independtly came up with the basic vote split Phase A, and me and him alternately organized skewing either the YES or the NO on various days to target people we found scummy. M_Z... I felt has got a lot of credit for not that much. One of them are lying to gain favor in my eyes, as basically I think they are forced bussing their teammates and will need town sentiment to pull off the final mislynch, and aren't planning on making me the mislynch (at least with ET. Meapak is more reserved and I see this as suspicious). To be clear I am now swaying to thinking Meapak is the final scum. I'll be continuing to press them in PMs. I originally thought Meapak scum when WBG and syllo were first shot but have been dissuaded with him bussing his teammates and his Palmar is town ploy. However ET is pretty clear and open in PMs and I'm constantly reconsidering my reads. On that note, tell me if you are considering katina scum. I need to know if I should be putting more focus in discerning that because I can't see her as scum at all (she has basically called out members of both mafia from the start of the game). And on that note I'm just voting according to plan. I'm being paranoid and I trust that you aren't going to lynch her, but even if you do it will be 3 townies 2 scum and we can all focus on the last scum. + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B ET] + By ET Ic. It didn't go unnoticed, as katina said "why slosh 5 on et"? If I was scum I would be worrying about those vote counts and if the town was thinking of switching things up. What's Ur current opinion of sloosh? Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Because it's easy to realize that we can go for a Wiggles+Katina+sandro lynch (me and MZ put all of our votes on Wiggles/Katina, so we can easily take those out). I was thinking that perhaps the Harimoto's would freak out if Katina/Wiggles are Harimoto, and secretly give votes to them to avoid them dying, or pushing us to save them, or something. It most likely won't work directly, but we at least we can scare scum and maybe they'll slip or something. Hide nested quote - Original Message From EchelonTee: I don't exactly see how it will scare ppl since they all at 11, but whatever floats your boat. I thought the phony sheet had them at 6 each or something along those lines. Original Message From gonzaw: Yeah vote like that. You know what we planned, we are trying to scare scum into outing themselves, but in the end sandro will be the lynch no matter what (since me/you/MZ will vote as stated in the spreadsheet) Original Message From EchelonTee: Do I follow the votes here? I am going to be on a flight for most of tomorrow and have to submit my votes early. I'm on board with the plan; it doesn't seem too risky and it will still guarantee sandroba's death. Original Message From gonzaw: Here it is: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlDOJgSVEnnPdDgtUmVkVlQ3b2pKT1MtU0tEUWMyTHc#gid=0 + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Yeah I was thinking the same thing. As long as there are no night kills, you me and ET will always have enough votes to influence it how we want at this point. And if ET ends up being scum then you and I will still win. Actually, with no night kills, even if one of you/me/ET is scum it'll end up being a stalemate. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I was thinking about just trying to get a multilynch on Katina/Wiggles/sloosh at the same time and just get it over with. Like, have a majority of (me or you or ET)+Wiggles+Katina+sloosh, and have EVERYBODY give votes to the one from our "trio". Katina/Wiggles/sloosh would get 0 votes and all die. The problem is that if there are 2 Harimotos there, they will give 5 votes to each other and survive. That's risky since it would lead us to 3-2, and we would lose if there isn't a night kill. However, if my speculation is right and scum don't have any KP whatsoever by now, then we can still get those 2 lynched, even if they out themselves. Or something like that. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: Well all I can say is that I think our plan worked :D. It's certainly stirred up the folks who thought they were gonna just ride this one home. You do realize that you and I can just kill everyone if we have to and win like that. I'm not gonna bring it up in the thread but it is a viable strategy. Original Message From gonzaw: So now Katina is creating distrust in our group, and she thinks sloosh is "town" again without stating any reason whatsoever. Just like what sloosh did. *sigh* Maybe they are in fact scumbuddies...so that means Wiggles is town? I find it hard to believe Wiggles is town, but damn. Let's wait until sandro flips though, I don't want to make hasty conclusions right now (and we have all Night 7 to discuss anyways) + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B sloosh] + By sloosh I'm putting this here for future reference - I think with Mr Wiggles last post we can glean the remaining scum according to family analysis. I'll be doing it tomorrow when I have time - I think he is putting sandroba fixedly in the Yokoya team for a reason. The PM title is katina because it bears information on her possible family alignment if she were scum. Either way I'm going to be careful in thread not to give away my stance because no doubt the remaining scum are trying to get me on their side seeing as it is more feasible than cracking into the trio and gaining trust in that way. In any case, no need to respond to this. I'll do analysis by tomorrow. + Show Spoiler [D7 Round B Meapak] + By Meapak Sorry for being away for the past day or so, was at a friends house. Anyway I'm fairly certain wiggled is scum as well. That leaves sloosh and katina. I would love to kill katina just for being an idiot but being stupid doesn't necessarily mean you're scum. Here's the thing, sloosh has been at least engaged with the game. He's supported us initially but then backed off after prpl flipped now he's willing to play ball again since we've flipped sandro. I get the vibe that he's new and just doesn't want wool pulled over his eyes. Since our trio has been fairly self contained I see a perfect opportunity for Katina to turn him against us. And that brings us to katina. We all have called her town due to foolishness and she's ridden that hard. She seems extremely disinterested unlike sloosh. She has literally done nothing, and with sansro's flip, her tunneling of palmar isn't even bussing any more and instead blind luck. Right now I feel katina is much more likely to be scum. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Got another PM from sloosh *previous PM from sloosh* So now he backs off from his town read on Katina. I don't really know what to think about their "reaction", and sloosh wanting to give Katina votes, etc. I mean, they can't be scumbuddies, so if one of them is scum why risk doing something stupid to save another guy from a different faction? The only thing I could think of is perhaps they are scum from different factions and were able to communicate somehow (and are working together to destroy our "circle" first). Although that seems unlikely. Maybe one of them is town and just overreacted, and the other one reacted in the same way to "buddy" up with that other townie or something *sigh* We can't really analyse voting patterns too much right now. sandro and Palmar voted the opposite every single day except for 2 days: Day 3 and Day 6. On Day 3 the other unconfirmed player on their side is ET, and we know he's town so that doesn't give us any info. Then there is Day 6. But remember that on Day 6 we forced sloosh/Katina/prplhz/Wiggles to vote like we wanted to. sandro is the only one that was free to vote like he wanted (Palmar already voted NO by that point). So perhaps he would have voted to make a 2-1 split? In that case Wiggles would be their scumbuddies, but I can't shake the feeling that sandro just thought that he would be the lynch alone so the whole scumteam voted 3 NO to confuse us later In the Yokoya department: While BC was alive, chaoser and BC voted differently each day, so we can't analyse much those days. However, chaoser was alive for 2 days later. We can assume they would split the vote 1-1 to maximize the chances of staying alive. However, unless ET is his scumbuddy, then on D3 the both voted YES So again, we can't analyze the votes too much. Everybody was against chaoser from the beginning, and BC as well. It's likely his scumbuddy would bus him. However, Wiggles and sloosh barely mentioned chaoser/BC throughout the whole game. sloosh started mentioning chaoser as scum like on D3 or N3 only. Then again, we already know Katina could bus chaoser/BC (specially after chaoser got pushed by Foolishness right off the start of the game), and she didn't actively push for their lynch, she just argued with them and tried to clog up the thread a little bit (specially with BC). I can't conclude too much about this, although it makes me think Wiggles is almost definitely scum, whether Harimoto or Yokoya, and the voting patterns/behaviour from him and flipped scum make both of them possible. What do you think? + Show Spoiler [N7 Meapak (the plan)] + By Meapak This looks good, I'm with you about finishing this off all at once. Better yet, I think Sloosh will cooperate right now. Reading through this makes me wonder why scum haven't surrendered yet. And here's the thing, even if you and ET are both scum, at this point you're from separate teams, even if we kill everyone and it's just us three it'll be a stalemate. I really hope scum take the opportunity to surrender like you outlined. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, I thought about it and I think I tweaked the previous plan to make it work (I'll just post it all so I can PM ET this): The plan is to kill all 3 of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh. You 2 are town and I'm sure of that, and I don't want to waste hours and hours determining if Wiggles is Harimoto or Yokoya for instance, and just kill them all to finally end this game. Here is what I was thinking. Phase A: On Round A, we force people to vote like this: NO: gonzaw, sloosh, Wiggles, Katina YES: ET, MZ Premise: The townie out of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina will cooperate with us and follow the plan This means that the votes will be like this: NO:: gonzaw, townie YES: ET, MZ There are 3 options for the remaining 2 scum: Both vote NO: Then they will follow the plan and be both in the majority. See Phase B Both vote YES: In this case both scum will try to "beat" the system and try to survive by trying to be in the minority. However, in this case both scum will be OUTED, and the votes will end like this: NO: gonzaw, townie YES: ET, MZ, Yokoya, Harimoto The YES will be majority, with both scum in it, and both will be in it, so we can kill both of them by just letting them have 0 votes and giving all of them to ET/MZ. If 1 of them saves the other one, then we kill him on the next day One votes NO: In this case, 1 scum will try to survive by voting NO and screw with us, while the other is scared enough (or just surrenders) and follows the plan. In this case the votes are like this: NO: gonzaw, townie, Scum YES: ET, MZ, Scum It will be a draw, so the Round B will be done again. However, the scum that voted YES will be outed and we can single-handily kill him that Round B. After we kill him, we make a similar plan the next day to kill the remaining 2 players out of the group to get the final scum Phase B: We have EVERYBODY put their 5 votes on me (I'm in the majority). The votes will be like this: me: 25 votes Katina: 0 votes Wiggles: 0 votes sloosh: 0 votes I'll put my votes on ET for instance and they won't count. sandroba was allowed to make illegal votes the other day and didn't receive any warning, so I assume we are allowed to do that and there's no problem in that. There are various options here: Both scum follow the plan: Then both will put their 5 votes on me, and they will both die. We win the game in this scenario 1 scum follows the plan, but another one doesn't: This means that 1 scum will, for instance put 2 votes on Wiggles and make 2 illegal votes (or something). However, since the other scum follows the plan and gave me 5 votes, the scum that didnt follow the plan will die since nobody will give votes to him. If that scum decided to save the townie out of the group: Then great BOTH scum will die but the townie will live If that scum decided to save the other scum: Then 1 scum and 1 townie will die. The other scum will be apparent and we can kill him the next day with ease Both scum decide to not follow the plan: In this case they will give votes to someone else for instance. There are various scenarios, but I'll divide them in 2: **They save each other and let the townie win: In this case, both scum will survive and the townie will die. However, later it will be 3-2 with 2 outed scum. Again, assuming there are no night kills, we can easily kill them both They don't save each other: Then at least 1 of them will die, and then it's the same as before (we kill the remaining one) The thing in our favour, is that ** is unlikely to happen. Why? Because the scum belong to different factions For both of them to save each other, they have to: 1)Both have to accurately deduce who the other scum is 2)Both have to decide to save each other (if one of them just surrenders and doesn't save the other one, then we'll win) I think these 2 are very unlikely, so I think there is like a 10% chance it will happen. You know why I think this will work? Because it gives scum a chance to surrender What does a scum have to do to surrender? They just have to vote NO, and put their 5 votes on me. They have to do nothing else. I think both scum know they will likely lose, so I think they will take the chance and just end the game as soon as possible, so I think there is a high chance that: -They either surrender officially (asking Protact and all that shit). Although I don't know if this is possible with 2 scum teams -Or they just surrender in thread and let us kill them What do you think? Oh yeah, we can do this is no Night kill happens tonight (and in next days). I don't think scum have any KP, if so they would have used them by now. I mean, they basically lost already, if they had some KP at all they would have used it already. Also, the worst case scenario is that there is 1 scum in our "trio" (although I heavily doubt that). In that case, we will kill all 3 of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina, but arrive at 2-1 Night 8. If there are no night kills, then even then we have another chance to figure out the scum out of the 3 of us, so we can still win. But again, I don't think that will happen at all, but that's the worst case scenario and we can still win in it, so I think this plan is good. Most of all, I just want to fucking end this game once and for all >_> Like, if we start lynching scum 1 by 1, we'll end in Day 14 or something. It feels like 1 month since this game started, so let's just end this. + Show Spoiler [N7 ET] + By ET re-reading Katina, I'd rate her more scummy than M_Z. I really think sloosh is townie though, but triple killing sloosh/wiggles/katina is an OK idea. I'll re-read it again to make sure there aren't holes in it. I kind of doubt that we will be able to get a clean triple kill off (due to unaccounted votes and w.e), but the plan doesn't look too bad. be back in a bit. fingers crossed for flip Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hey, I thought of a plan to win this game by tomorrow. It hinges on there not being scum kills tonight, and maybe on next days. However, I think scum don't have any more KP so I think it will work. I'll just post what I sent MZ: Hide nested quote - Okay, I thought about it and I think I tweaked the previous plan to make it work (I'll just post it all so I can PM ET this): The plan is to kill all 3 of Wiggles/Katina/sloosh. You 2 are town and I'm sure of that, and I don't want to waste hours and hours determining if Wiggles is Harimoto or Yokoya for instance, and just kill them all to finally end this game. Here is what I was thinking. Phase A: On Round A, we force people to vote like this: NO: gonzaw, sloosh, Wiggles, Katina YES: ET, MZ Premise: The townie out of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina will cooperate with us and follow the plan This means that the votes will be like this: NO: gonzaw, townie YES: ET, MZ There are 3 options for the remaining 2 scum: Both vote NO: Then they will follow the plan and be both in the majority. See Phase B Both vote YES: In this case both scum will try to "beat" the system and try to survive by trying to be in the minority. However, in this case both scum will be OUTED, and the votes will end like this: NO: gonzaw, townie YES: ET, MZ, Yokoya, Harimoto The YES will be majority, with both scum in it, and both will be in it, so we can kill both of them by just letting them have 0 votes and giving all of them to ET/MZ. If 1 of them saves the other one, then we kill him on the next day One votes NO: In this case, 1 scum will try to survive by voting NO and screw with us, while the other is scared enough (or just surrenders) and follows the plan. In this case the votes are like this: NO: gonzaw, townie, Scum YES: ET, MZ, Scum It will be a draw, so the Round B will be done again. However, the scum that voted YES will be outed and we can single-handily kill him that Round B. After we kill him, we make a similar plan the next day to kill the remaining 2 players out of the group to get the final scum Phase B: We have EVERYBODY put their 5 votes on me (I'm in the majority). The votes will be like this: me: 25 votes Katina: 0 votes Wiggles: 0 votes sloosh: 0 votes I'll put my votes on ET for instance and they won't count. sandroba was allowed to make illegal votes the other day and didn't receive any warning, so I assume we are allowed to do that and there's no problem in that. There are various options here: Both scum follow the plan: Then both will put their 5 votes on me, and they will both die. We win the game in this scenario 1 scum follows the plan, but another one doesn't: This means that 1 scum will, for instance put 2 votes on Wiggles and make 2 illegal votes (or something). However, since the other scum follows the plan and gave me 5 votes, the scum that didnt follow the plan will die since nobody will give votes to him. If that scum decided to save the townie out of the group: Then great BOTH scum will die but the townie will live If that scum decided to save the other scum: Then 1 scum and 1 townie will die. The other scum will be apparent and we can kill him the next day with ease Both scum decide to not follow the plan: In this case they will give votes to someone else for instance. There are various scenarios, but I'll divide them in 2: **They save each other and let the townie win: In this case, both scum will survive and the townie will die. However, later it will be 3-2 with 2 outed scum. Again, assuming there are no night kills, we can easily kill them both They don't save each other: Then at least 1 of them will die, and then it's the same as before (we kill the remaining one) The thing in our favour, is that ** is unlikely to happen. Why? Because the scum belong to different factions For both of them to save each other, they have to: 1)Both have to accurately deduce who the other scum is 2)Both have to decide to save each other (if one of them just surrenders and doesn't save the other one, then we'll win) I think these 2 are very unlikely, so I think there is like a 10% chance it will happen. You know why I think this will work? Because it gives scum a chance to surrender What does a scum have to do to surrender? They just have to vote NO, and put their 5 votes on me. They have to do nothing else. I think both scum know they will likely lose, so I think they will take the chance and just end the game as soon as possible, so I think there is a high chance that: -They either surrender officially (asking Protact and all that shit). Although I don't know if this is possible with 2 scum teams -Or they just surrender in thread and let us kill them What do you think? Oh yeah, we can do this is no Night kill happens tonight (and in next days). I don't think scum have any KP, if so they would have used them by now. I mean, they basically lost already, if they had some KP at all they would have used it already. Also, the worst case scenario is that there is 1 scum in our "trio" (although I heavily doubt that). In that case, we will kill all 3 of Wiggles/sloosh/Katina, but arrive at 2-1 Night 8. If there are no night kills, then even then we have another chance to figure out the scum out of the 3 of us, so we can still win. But again, I don't think that will happen at all, but that's the worst case scenario and we can still win in it, so I think this plan is good. Most of all, I just want to fucking end this game once and for all >_> Like, if we start lynching scum 1 by 1, we'll end in Day 14 or something. It feels like 1 month since this game started, so let's just end this. I know you kind of think MZ is scum, but I'm pretty sure he's town. Even if MZ is scum, then like I said there, it will end up with a 2-1 standoff between you, me and MZ. We can figure out who is the scum between us in that case, so even in that worst case scenario we can still win. Like I said, I doubt that will happen though. + Show Spoiler [D8 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak Sweet! Let's get this done with. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Okay, got an answer from Protact: Both scum teams have to agree to surrender for it to take place. If one team decides to surrender, but the other one doesn't, then the game still goes on. Maybe that's what likely happened (hell maybe both scum teams don't want to surrender by now somehow) Also, ET says he agrees with our plan, but he'll look at it harder first (to find holes and shit). I think we are ready to go. + Show Spoiler [D8 Round A ET] + By ET I'm fine with it. It forces scum to react, and when scum have to do things to try and avoid deaths, it exposes them more. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: I'm writing the "plan post" right now, and I'll end it in a few minutes. If you have any questions shoot them now okay? Because if not I'd have already posted the plan by then + Show Spoiler [D8 Round A sloosh] + By sloosh As I said in thread, I'll comply, its the fastest/cleanest way to finish it, and I'm pulled to a null read on katina so I'm fine with that. This is a side point but I'd stay away from meta and keep to raw analysis - I've played with ET in SMMVII? and you see day 1 where we go for each other's throats. But whatever, you don't have to care about this unless there is a day 8 (or 9 I lost count). + Show Spoiler [D8 Round A Meapak] + By Meapak Fair enough, I hadn't really considered the fact that wiggles has basically given up already. I'm sending in my votes for you now. Show nested quote + Original Message From gonzaw: Hide nested quote - Original Message From Meapak_Ziphh: I would like to put five votes on sloosh. Here's why, I'm very sure that wiggles and katina are scum and I think the thread accepts that as well. My fear is that they vote for each other which'll leave sloosh out cold to die. This'll just drag the game on for yet another day. On the other hand, if sloosh is scum, we've still killed a scum between wiggles and katina. At worst it'll send us into the next day with one scum remaining instead of two possible. At best we win the game. I don't think this is such a good idea. I've been thinking about this for some time, and about each scum and what they would do, and I think I've got a good grasp on things, and I think following the plan will be the best option. Also, you giving sloosh 5 votes isn't that good, because I need both your and ET's 5 votes on me. Imagine this scenario: -sloosh is scum -Wiggles gives his 5 votes to sloosh because he thinks sloosh is town -Katina and sloosh give 5 votes to each other In that case, ET would give me 5 votes, you'd give sloosh 5 votes, and I'd get lynched. I know it's not likely, but I don't want to take any chances, so I'd prefer you and ET giving me your 5 votes each, or at least to take me to the "safe vote amount" of 8 votes. Anyways, I'll tell you all my thoughts I had since Round A or so about this situation (beware, they are too many! ): I agree that Wiggles and Katina are most likely the scum team, but I'm very paranoid at this moment about sloosh. He's very cooperative with this plan all of a sudden, and a voice in the back of my head tells me he's acting very "town-like" right now just so we can do something like you planned (and save him today). I know it's not likely, but I don't want to unnecessary prolong this game any longer if sloosh were to be scum. Also, if Wiggles and Katina were in fact scum, I doubt they'd give each other votes. Mostly because I don't think them, or at least BOTH would be willing to continue this game. This game hasn't ended yet in a scum surrender, which means that at least 1 of the scum teams didn't surrender yet. Without loss of generality, let's assume one scum already surrendered (most likely Wiggles tbh). This means the other scum didn't surrender yet. I've been thinking about this and I've come up with 2 reason why they wouldn't: 1)They still think they have a chance to win, or want to "fight back" all they can 2)Because of principle I could see scum doing (2). For instance, I don't think I'd surrender as scum, even if it be "obvious" I'd die and lose. There's always a chance anything can happen and turns the game around, so I wouldn't do it. I could see a scum not surrendering just to "see what happens", hoping for a miracle or sorts. If not, then the option would be (1). The point is that scum haven't surrendered for now. It makes me think that scum may want to stall, and try to create an option to win the game by themselves. When I saw Katina make that ridiculous post of hers, I thought something like that. Perhaps she doesn't want to surrender just yet, because she thinks she can get some people against our circle, and perhaps survive somehow (like she tried to do with sloosh by PMing him for instance). If she hasn't surrendered by now, it's because she may still think that that strategy would work, I don't think she hasn't surrendered by now because she plans on giving Wiggles any votes. If the day still goes on and we make it sure to Katina that she will die, then I think she'll do surrender by that point, and either surrender officially, or just follow the plan and die without surrendering (because of point (2) ). I've made the plan to discourage scum to do exactly that. Each scum NEEDS the other scum for them to survive today. Now, imagine you are scum, and you decide to save the other scum to create this "situation". Why would the other scum try to save you then? You already saved him, why would he keep you around? It's like a Prisoners Dilemma of sorts. Each scum needs complete cooperation with each other to do this. Considering both scum lost anyways, and maybe 1 of them most likely surrendered, I don't see any reason (other than fucking with us just because) for them to do that. For instance, I think Wiggles has a good chance of being Harimoto (specially because of sandro's 5 votes on him last day). He's been very silent these days, hasn't really fought back or anything. It makes me think that perhaps his team already surrendered by now, or if he hasn't (because of (2)) then he would still just follow the plan and die. Another thing I was thinking, was that if a scum really wanted to survive, they would have voted YES yesterday. I mean, if you are scum, then voting YES means that you force a draw. You can then pull the "offended townie" that wants to "show people the truth" and get "the scum circle of gonzaw/ET/MZ killed" (or whoever they FoS from us). If they really wanted to win, I think they would have at least tried that. They wouldn't have just voted NO and then done almost nothing since. Katina perhaps voted because she realized she couldn't win, or maybe because she wants to convince someone to not follow the plan and maybe give her votes (maybe she's still PMing with sloosh or something). The point is that I doubt Wiggles and Katina will give votes to each other. This brings me to my other point: If sloosh is scum, then I think he'll follow the plan as well. If he's scum I think he'll just try to act all "townie" so we try to save him. If this is true, then he won't give Wiggles/Katina votes. In this case, not giving sloosh any votes ends the game today If we give him votes, then we need to play another day here. If sloosh is town, then I doubt Wiggles/Katina will give votes to each other, so if we don't give sloosh votes they'll still die and we'll win. Even in the "worst case scenario" that Wiggles/Katina give each other votes (which like I said I seriously doubt), we'll be in a 3-2 D9 and we can kill both. If they are scum, they know this, and they know they'll die, and they also know that it will prolong the game to Day 10. I'm sure they don't want that, or if not at least I hope I could have convinced them not to by that post I made with the plan. I think this plan has that covered. Even if sloosh is scum, I think we'll win today. If he's town and WIggles/Katina are scum, then I think we'll win today as well. The worst case in my mind is 1 of Katina/Wiggles giving votes to each other, but not the other one (I really doubt both will cooperate, because of previous reasons). In this case only 1 of them will survive, and then we lynch him alone next day if we haven't won. After I told you the plan I was planning for this to happen, which is why I thought the plan would work on it's own without modifying it at all. Like I said, I don't want to needlessly prolong this game any longer, it's getting bored as fuck (I think the thread got only 5 pages larger since Day 4 or something). I think we've put the cards into the table to win today and have both scum surrender, or just end up following the plan. Giving sloosh votes makes it more possible that we'll need to play another day to win than if we don't. There's also the fact that we won't be able to control the thread that much after we don't follow the plan ourselves, and after I said the whole "If you don't follow the plan you are confirmed scum" thing from before. + Show Spoiler [N8 ET, aka my brain fart] + By gonzaw What does "trusting you too fast" have anything to do with it? Do you mean that I was too fast to trust scum or something? If you want to see my reasons for trusting you, wbg, Foolishness, etc earlier then reread the thread. I tried to figure out which of you made sense as Harimoto or Yokoya to try and find the remaining townie. You didn't make too much sense as Yokoya, specially because you wanted to save Wiggles on Day 4 and let chaoser to die alone (you could have easily NOT made that "Wiggles is town" read on the fly and kill Wiggles instead of chaoser). However, after thinking you could be Harimoto, I realised that sandro gave chaoser 4 votes that day. Why the hell would he do that? Either he wanted to save chaoser because he thought he was scum (and wanted to get a townie lynched instead), or he may have wanted people to think he was chaoser's scumbuddy. I also remember you having quite a change of heart on Wiggles and desperately wanting to save him, which would make sense if you guys wanted chaoser to die instead of Wiggles by that point (and having the thread believe sandro was Yokoya). After that you haven't been attached to plans or anything, me and MZ just PMed you about them and told you what to do. It felt weird when the only thing you did was say "K I sent my votes" and nothing else. Meapak is certainly town (it's no use trying to hide it from scum now though, if I already think sloosh is scum you should already know it). He was just so active in PMs with me, and tried very hard to coordinate the plans with me as well. Compared to your contributions since then I can't see him as scum. Tell me then why you think I'm scum ET, just because I could pull something like this off if I am? Also what do you mean by "pulling this off"? What is "this"? And are you saying I can't "pull it off" as townie either? What am I? Yokoya or Harimoto? Why? Show nested quote + Original Message From EchelonTee: I'm almost certain you're scum. You're the only player I know who could pull off something like this. I still remembver SoaF lol, where you bussed all your mates and acted completely townie. The only minor slips you've had are trusting me too fast, and your flip-flop on sloosh. If you were townie, why wouldn't you be extensively talking with me and MZ to figure out our alignments? Feel free to tell me why you think I'm mafia, but you're better off finding the real scum and working with them. I'm pretty sure I've found the townie. Hide nested quote - Original Message From gonzaw: Are you scum? I've been thinking up scenarios all over in my head about you/MZ/sloosh being possible Yokoya/Harimoto, and I found only one possible scenario and you are scum in it. I just can't find MZ as neither Yokoya nor Harimoto. Original Message From EchelonTee: ............................................................................................................. are you scum? you trusted me a little too fast in the beginning. + Show Spoiler [N8 Meapak] + By gonzaw I've been thinking about this and I think I have a plan that may or may not work for us. If I find the remaining townie, then at best we win, and at worst we draw. I've been thinking all possible scenarios and rereading the thread/PMs based on them. I find sloosh basically confirmed scum at this point. He could either be Yokoya or Harimoto I'm not sure, but his silence right now basically condemns him. Now, I tried to see if you could be Harimoto or Yokoya, and I found it was pretty much impossible for you to be either: Yokoya- If you were Yokoya you wouldn't have let chaoser die on D4 alone. Wiggles was your scumread at that point, you could have swayed me/ET to get him lynched alone in some way Harimoto- If you were Harimoto, then you wouldn't have done that Palmar+prplhz+sandro lynch plan. You knew sandro would have been likely the sole lynch. That would have been the best case for you, since Palmar would have still been alive, and you could have made plans to get WIggles/Katina/prplhz/sloosh lynched first later (multilynch for instance). Instead you made a plan to get Palmar lynched, and he actually followed the plan and died. I reread ET's behaviour and actions and I believe him to be Harimoto. But I still don't know if I should trust you. What are your thoughts about this? Damn, yeah I don't know if I should include those PMs here when I get to that part >_> Hey Ver/Incognito, any thoughts about my play in late-game (from Day 8 onwards)? I know I fucked up with my scum read on sloosh/Katina/basically everybody alive, but I want to know what I could have done better and stuff. Also, I really need to see Harimoto's Scum QT, and I want to know wtf happened when sandro outed Palmar to us >_> To anyone not knowing: [/quote][/quote]On Day 4 Round B, chaoser PMed sandro to get sandro to give chaoser some votes to get him saved. sandro said he'd give him 4 votes because he needed to give 1 vote to Palmar, and he told chaoser to give 5 votes to Palmar. chaoser told him that Palmar was town so his votes didn't matter, and asked him for more votes. sandro then told him that he should ask his scumbuddy to give him 5 votes (chaoser initially said that his buddy could give him 5 votes.... >_>). chaoser told him that his buddy could not give him any more votes, and that he needed 6 or so votes to survive the lynch today. sandro kept insisting on only giving him 4 votes and putting the rest on Palmar chaoser still insisted in asking him why giving votes on Palmar, if Palmar was town sandro told chaoser Palmar was his scumbuddy sandro then basically said that he'd give chaoser 4 votes and nothing else After that, sandro did indeed give 4 votes to chaoser and 1 to Palmar, and chaoser gave 5 votes to Palmar on request of me. We didn't buy that Palmar scum claim at all because it was absolutely innecessary basically, since I think chaoser told sandro that someone else had given Palmar votes. Since chaoser's votes were basically useless, I told him to follow through and give Palmar 5 votes so the other team "thought" we were cooperating and shit Was that intentional or not? Really, I thought ET was basically confirmed town because of that. Also...Palmar was killed on Day 6 because of an "accident" with Harimoto's votes? >_> I almost thought ET was town because of that as well, but I instantly thought "No, if ET was scum then he would tell Palmar to follow the plan, if not we would instantly know there is a leak in our circle". | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:12 GMT
#1713
EPIC MAFIA FAILS: 1)On Day 2 Round A to try and get BC into the minority For some reason I still don't get (I think it was because he would be at work near the deadline or something), BC had already voted NO, like as soon as Day 2 Round A started. Everybody wanted to kill him, so absolutely nobody would give him votes on Round B; I tried to make a plan to get him into the minority. I planned on getting my "trusted townies" into a voting block, so all voted YES. Because of that there would be a higher chance BC would be in the minority. So I PMed Foo', wbg and ET about it (and Foo' PMed Katina). 4 YES would be enough I think, would greatly increase BC's chances of being in the minority. When I PMed them, I slightly suggested to Foo' to vote YES. I was planning on continue that trail of thought and convince him to vote YES, at least when he responded back to me. Why it absolutely failed: However, before he responded back to me about deciding what exactly to vote, ET had already PMed me the above PM: He had already voted NO because of WIFOM, and PMed Foolishness about it as well. Near that time, wbg told me that he voted NO as well. At that point everything was fucked, and I couldn't tell Foo' anything else than just follow the plan and vote NO as well. 2)On Day 2 Round B to try and save BC: Well, Round B came and BC was on it. Nobody planned on giving him votes, except one person: Cephiro. We were thinking that Cephiro would just rebel against the system and give him votes. I thought that Cephiro would not receive any votes as well (nobody thought he was town, and the ones that hinted that didn't mind him dying). So if Ceph gave BC votes, and Ceph didn't receive any votes we would be saved. I also wanted chaoser to give at least 1 vote to BC just in case (perhaps 2). I mean, he was considered scum by many, and people subtly linking him as BC's buddy wouldn't be that bad, specially if it mean BC would still be alive Also, this was the time that wbg panicked and wanted me to give votes to ET because ET only had 3 votes or something, and Meapak had 0. I had previously told him I would give Katina 3 votes, so I told him "I already sent my votes to Katina" (an absolute lie I didn't send any vote), because I thought that perhaps if ET or Meapak had 3 or 4 votes, then he could have less votes than BC (if Cephiro gave BC some votes) and thus BC would be safe. Yeah we went quite along with this and I agreed to give ET 2 votes, and wbg would give ET 1 and Meapak 4. BC had already given MZ 2 votes (*sigh*), but I think ET would have gotten 6 votes along MZ, so maybe BC could get there as well if chaoser+Cephiro gave him votes. Why it absolutely failed: Wow where do I start: -chaoser didn't give any vote to BC because of some reasons I forgot -BC ACTUALLY GAVE VOTES TO CEPHIRO. Again, he did this like halfway through Round B when we were still trying to figure out how to get him saved -Cephiro "overslept" and didn't actually give him any votes. Yeah, FML moment there. 3)On Day 3 to try and save chaoser: Okay, everybody started to want to kill chaoser, and he got into the majority. Do you see a pattern here? It was here that prplhz made his "plan to kill chaoser/MZ/Sheth". Again, I knew chaoser would get almost 0 votes, so I started rambling about how it was dangerous that all 3 would be at 0 votes because Cephiro would decide the lynch by himself (and some other bullshit). I tried to get people to get Sheth lynched alone, which would require giving chaoser votes. So I got into some arguments with wbg, where he agreed that Sheth needed to die but wanted chaoser to die as well. He said MZ was more likely townie out of those so he wanted me to save him or something. He wanted me to give MZ 5 votes in the case that chaoser/Sheth got 5 votes or something (I think), but he also told me that MZ was more likely townie than Sheth/chaoser, and that he didn't want me voting chaoser because chaoser dying alone wouldn't be bad either. So I tried my hardest to appear "offended" or something about letting Sheth have a chance to survive, and decided to give chaoser 2 votes and MZ 3 to "lynch Sheth alone". I made quite an argument with wbg and somehow "convinced" him about it (he wasn't quite sure, but he gave me his consent), because I knew this was a VERY risky choice and people would instantly find it suspicious (like syllo did). But well, I had the PM logs with wbg in case somebody asked (like sloosh), but well they weren't really needed since wbg came to back me up after it happened Why it absolutely failed: Because Cephiro gave chaoser 5 votes, making my whole plan useless which only served to make me more suspicious. Basically I did it all for nothing. 4)On Day 4 to try and save chaoser: So, everybody wanted to kill chaoser and he ended up being in the majority again. This seems like the punchline to some joke, right? Haha you so funny So, again I wanted to desperately save chaoser. Chaoser had already contacted sandro, so they started talking. The whole convo from above took place. I knew someone could fuck up the votes by giving Wiggles 5 votes or something, so I planned for Katina/sloosh/MZ/ET to PM their first 3 votes to Protact already so MZ, ET and sloosh had some votes on them each so we would "get them to safety the fastest" while "having our 2 other votes to spare". So yeah, now at most 1 player alone had 2 votes to spare, not 5, so someone alone couldn't fuck up the votes. ET went nuts and wanted to give Wiggles 6 votes. MZ and ET thought that chaoser would get 5 votes from Cephiro or something, which is why they wanted to give others 5 votes as well. After that prplhz claimed he'd give 5 votes to Palmar. After that ET wanted chaoser to die alone and give Wiggles 6 votes. Some time passed, and I reminded ET that all 5 of us (ET, MZ, Katina, sloosh, me) had 2 votes to spare, meaning 10 votes in total. We still needed sloosh/MZ/ET to arrive at the "safe" amount of votes, and that would have needed 6 or 5 votes or something, so it would be impossible to give Wiggles 6 or 5 votes like he wanted Then I convinced ET to just give Wiggles 2-3 votes because I thought that maybe Cephiro would give chaoser 1-3 votes at all, that way we could have gotten Wiggles lynched as well. Also, ET couldn't give 5 votes to WIggles by himself because he only had 2 to spare (he already claimed he made his 1st 3 votes, had he lied about that and gave 5 to Wiggles it would have exposed his lie and would out him as scum, so no matter what he HAD to put his 1st 3 votes wherever we said so before). So I told ET to give Wiggles his 2 spare votes, and that I would give him 1 vote, and told MZ to give his remaining votes to ET/sloosh (also I told ET that I would never convince MZ to give votes to Wiggles or something). sandro claimed to give 4 votes to chaoser, and we had 3 claimed votes on Wiggles. We thought that if Cephiro voted, then he would surely vote chaoser. + Show Spoiler [About Cephiro] + Earlier that day, Cephiro PMed chaoser saying something like "Hey, I am vigilante and I shot Ace and Foolishness" or something. That came near the same time sandro and chaoser were PMing each other. We thought that was Cephiro claiming scum to us as well, in his weird own way, so we thought Cephiro was Harimoto from that on So, we thought Cephiro was scum, so he'd give chaoser votes to save him and let Wiggles die. Even if he didn't give chaoser any votes, well he would give them to MZ or sloosh or something, and Wiggles would die with 3 votes and chaoser would live with 4 votes. Everything seemed to be fine. Except... Why it absolutely failed: Fucking Cephiro gave 2 votes to Wiggles. Wiggles ended up with 5 votes, chaoser with 4 and chaoser was lynched. Since we thought Cephiro was scum, we thought scum were trying to fuck up with us so I raged and stuff So people, that was the tale of the 4 most EPIC FAIL scum agendas in the history of TL Mafia. Thank you for your attention | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:24 GMT
#1715
-My team all thought you were Harimoto -Harimoto all thought you were Yokoya -Town all thought you were scum lol Hey ET, when did you figure out or had thoughts that I was scum? Before Day 8? After the plan from Day 8? Or just after we were 2-1-1? sandro, why did you out Palmar to us? Did you already do that KNOWING that I or MZ were scum, and we knew ET planned on getting Wiggles to 6 votes or so and we knew prplhz gave Palmar votes, and that way if me or MZ were scum, we would think "If ET was scum, then he'd know Palmar would get 5 votes from prplhz, so they'd know Palmar wouldn't need any votes to be saved (or at least not too many), so they wouldn't need to out Palmar to us to get us to save him", and then think ET would be basically confirmed town because of that? Because that's certainly what I thought, which is why I took ET as "confirmed town" basically and didn't even bother to read his filter/PMs and figure out if he was Harimoto | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:30 GMT
#1717
On May 25 2012 16:28 syllogism wrote: Also gonzaw not shooting when you should have just because town might win is really bad and I hope your team disapproves. If I don't shoot and the other guy doesn't shoot, I can still win, the same as if I shoot and the other guy doesn't shoot. So shooting didn't really make much difference to me, so why would I shoot? Also, add that to the fact that I had severe paranoia and actually thought sloosh was scum (so I would have ended up shooting him, netting Harimoto an automatic win). EDIT: if Harimoto shot me then I lose whether I use my KP or not If I had used my KP on Harimoto then I would have lost and town won, but I would have lost If I didn't use my KP on Harimoto, then Harimoto/Town would be in 2-1 LYLO, but I would have lost Same outcome no matter if I use my KP or not. I was planning for a 2-1-1 scenario (PMing Meapak to make a plan to get sloosh+ET lynched), so that was the one that benefited me the most. That one included not shooting, so I decided not to shoot. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:33 GMT
#1718
Hey ET, you could have still won in a 2-1-1 scenario, why make me lose so horribly instead of giving me a chance of making the game more interesting? >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:35 GMT
#1720
On May 25 2012 15:37 EchelonTee wrote: I'll read through the stuff later, still out. But yes, I slipped hard concerning sandroba, but only chaoser really noticed. About the d2 plan; gonzaw you may have come up with it but I was the one who said we should all vote to be in the ]majority, then telling sandroba to vote opposite. I worked my balls off to protect my team, which may have been dangerous, but scum is all about risk and reward, eh? Also, we should make a TL mafia games thread; I want to lol/dota with you guys more xpp I'll make the thread when I get back, if you guys are down; I already have a couple of your that's info :D If I told people that we should vote to be in the majority, then I doubt most people would have followed it. I tried to convince them that we could be in the minority and it would be sweet, so people were more motivated to follow it. Of course I wanted us to be in the majority, but in a YES majority not a NO one >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 07:39 GMT
#1721
On May 25 2012 16:35 syllogism wrote: But if you hit harimoto and they don't hit you, you win right there. I don't think it is a reasonable assumption that the other team wouldn't shoot when there were only 4 players alive (I assume that was the case, I wasn't following closely), but if that's what you assumed that's fine then. No, if I hit Harimoto and they don't hit me, I arrive at 2-1 LYLO with town. However, just because Yokoya used their KP, it would have proven Katina's theory right (that I'm scum that has a hidden KP to use and made that plan on Day 8 to win instantly). I could have convinced MZ that sloosh was Yokoya, but Katina's theory plus the KP would have hindered me too much I think. I kind of knew the other team would shoot me. Therefore I knew I already lost. However, just in case they didn't, I decided to plan for that 2-1-1 situation which I preferred rather than the 2-1 situation. Also, again, remember I thought sloosh was Harimoto >_>. I thought that if I shot sloosh and he had flipped Harimoto, it would have been kind of impossible for me to convince MZ that ET was Yokoya out of all people (because of his Day 4 panic to get chaoser lynched). So from my POV a 2-1 with me/MZ/ET with ET as town would have been very hard, at least compared to a 2-1-1, so I choose not to shoot. EDIT: Hey people, I know I write A LOT in QTs and such, but that's why I made the effort of labelling each cycle in it (by writing "***** Night 2 *****" and stuff), so at least give me that | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:06 GMT
#1723
I just assumed that if I tried to contact the other scum to "forge a draw", they'd stab me in the back by shooting me while I shot the other townie as planned Also, WHAT ABOUT SANDRO OUTING PALMAR TO US!!!? Seriously, that fucked up my entire game, I need to know! | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:21 GMT
#1725
Basically, sandro claimed Palmar was scum to chaoser to convince chaoser to give Palmar 5 votes. I thought: If ET is scum, then he would know prplhz would give Palmar 5 votes, and sandro would surely know that as well. With Palmar at 5 votes, and sandro giving him 1, he would be at 6 votes. That would basically mean he's safe from the lynch, specially if Wiggles/chaoser receive few votes. Therefore, if ET is scum, there would be no reason for sandro to beg chaoser to give Palmar 5 votes, therefore there would be no reason for sandro to out Palmar as his scumbuddy to chaoser. sandro outed Palmar as his scumbuddy to chaoser Reductio ad absurdum: ET is town. So I basically thought you were like confirmed town because of that, which basically lead me into thinking sloosh was scum. EDIT: Yeah, but I thought sloosh was scum and maybe he would have stabbed me in the back >_> Also, I did notice you desperately trying to save Wiggles on Day 4. I thought that if you were scum, then that was obviously intentional to get chaoser to die alone. sandro would give chaoser 4 votes, but if you convinced me/MZ to give Wiggles 6 votes, he'd be the sole lynch (since you knew prplhz would give Palmar 5 votes). After I figured that out, I knew that if you were scum, then you basically tricked us into getting chaoser lynched >_> I wouldn't have trusted you at all if you wanted to convince me to "joint win" if you claimed scum to me, because I knew you were trying to fuck with us since Day 4 >_> Granted, you didn't think I was scum at that point, you most likely thought it was Cephiro so you thought "Hey, I can fuck up with Cephiro I don't care!" or something Also again, I also thought you were town because at one point I was analysing the voting patterns and saw that if you were Harimoto all 3 of you would have voted the same on day 3. After that I basically said "Nah that's very unlikely, I'll just assume he's town for now"... | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:27 GMT
#1727
Well, at least I'll feel better that you guys didn't trick me since the beginning >_> EDIT: Hey Cephiro, you told me that you were playing like you did because you had some "plans" or something, but you didn't have any town cred later so you couldn't implement them. ...what were these "plans" of yours? Because...I don't think they were worth the risk of acting like that and basically being the 4th scum from both scumteams >_> EDIT: On May 25 2012 17:26 EchelonTee wrote: we also humored the idea of suddenly betraying chaoser and letting chaoser/wiggles get double killed. we weren't able to pull this off, but we needed more votes on Palmar at least. Yeah you did >_> I mean, had you NOT tried to save Wiggles, then Wiggles would have died with 2 votes (Cephiro's 2 votes) Also, how could you get Wiggles/chaoser double killed if you wanted to give Wiggles 6 votes? >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:33 GMT
#1728
From ET Gonzaw.... I regret not contacting you and soft claiming scum to you, as I did to MZ (you probably have 1 KP left, right?). We could've had a joint mafia victory; if we had shot both the remaining townies, we would've been 1-1 with no KP left, and won a joint victory as I did to MZ (you probably have 1 KP left, right?) *MZ goes and FoSes sloosh, lets ET get into minority* ...wat lol MZ, ET soft-claimed scum to you, and you still thought he was town on D9 | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:37 GMT
#1730
I didn't really thought any townie would have figured that out about my plan on D8, she doing so surprised me (so much that I thought she was Harimoto because of it >_>). Granted, had she been in the "loop" she may have thought I was town (I tried to plant the idea of making that triple-kill to MZ and perhaps ET since quite a while ago), but still, pretty impressive. Not only that, but she correctly called out: -chaoser -BC -Palmar -ET at one point (I think) -sandro I think Like...she correctly called out all 6 scum. You just need to be more active so people don't find you suspicious for a while, and damn you'll just roll over scum every time from now on (you did something similar on LI where you correctly deduced Toad and VE were scumbuddies). Insane kudos for that (and again...ignore everything I said in the scum QT >_> ) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:40 GMT
#1731
On May 25 2012 17:34 EchelonTee wrote: LMAO, how could I have planned something like that man? We thought that the remaining scum were Cephiro and Chaoser. Like I said, I'm not the gambit man... though I might become inspired by your play :p And we just got "lucky" on the 3vote that one day; it was an accident. If I had to name one criticism about you, it's that you think way too convoluted-ly sometimes XD In actuality though, you had a solid game and it was with a few hints of luck and some endgame shenanigans that you weren't able to win. Keep it in mind though; next time we end up in a dual faction game, if you think we're both scum, let's go for the joint win > : ) And dude, talking through edits is so confusing LOL. Slow it down bro. Well...I was always paranoid that you guys figured out I was scum on Day 4 (by checking ALL THE THINGS I've done previous to save chaoser for instance >_> ), and planned that to make me think ET was town Well, sandro, I don't know why you outed Palmar to chaoser but it just completely fucked me up (added to your "All 3 vote the same" thing). Damn, at least it was VERY fun coming up with all those plans and gambits I think that I, like, came up with 1 plan per Day or something So fun. And dude, talking through edits is so confusing LOL. Slow it down bro. lol. Well, either that or I have to 1000-ple post EDIT: Arggh! So many 's !!!! | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:46 GMT
#1733
On May 25 2012 17:41 EchelonTee wrote: Yeah she was on me in the early game, but luckily attention was diverted away. If she gains a bit more of that Palmar-asshole edge, she'll be great ^^ also, LOL at that pants-on-head pic. Everyone thought sandro was scum so w.e LOL Gonzaw, why didn't you try and work with me when it was 2-1-1? The fact that MZ and sloosh talked things over with me showed me that they were trying to find the last townie, but when you suddenly thought I was scum, it scared me and caused me to re-analyze you. My pms to you three that night were MZ: "why you want a draw? you probably have 1 KP left (soft claim, only scum team would proabably recognize). why not go for win? sloosh: "did Katina tell you that she planned to save you? were you in Pm contacts with her?" Gonzaw: "...... you scum? you trusted me way too fast" I was slightly apprehensive to all of you, but only gonzaw bit back :p Again..I thought sloosh was scum, but I didn't really plan on making a joint win with him or anything (again, I thought he would surely stab me in the back or something), and I tried to plan for a 2-1-1 scenario to win. My best bet would have been to buddy up to MZ (again), and I think I could have done it. I could accuse sloosh of anything (Yokoya or Harimoto), but I needed to accuse YOU of something. Since I couldn't accuse you of Yokoya I just started accusing you of Harimoto and came up with those reasons I PMed you about and shit. You were just the townie to misslynch at that point for me dude Also....you suddenly thought I was scum, so I tried to gain some initiative and FoS you more "thoroughly" sort of speak, to gain an upper hand or something. For instance, I would PM MZ about all the reasons I thought you were scum, before you could make a case against me or something, that way I could have gain MZ's trust first before you had done that or something. If you hadn't FoSed me, I could have played the "Wow, I don't know who of ET/MZ is scum" card a little longer I think >_> I already said I had a brain fart and I shouldn't have PMed you that last PM I sent you (the one I put in my scum QT) though, but well EDIT: Well, by "FoS" I meant that "Are you scum?" PM you sent me >_> I also wanted to play the "I spent 10 hours rereading the thread to figure out the scum out of ET/MZ" card instead of trying to PM with you guys. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 08:52 GMT
#1734
| ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 09:00 GMT
#1736
Like, imagine me and MZ working together against you and sloosh, where each group of ours thinks the other group is the group of scum working together? That would have been SO HILARIOUS LOL!! But now I missed it | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 09:22 GMT
#1738
Then we would all give 5 votes to each other AND ALL DIE Isn't that fun? But now, I actually planned on buddying up with MZ, but counting on one of you/sloosh thinking the other one was scum (hopefully the townie out of you thinking the scum out of you was scum). So, had sloosh thought ET was scum (and maybe me or MZ, didn't matter), then it would be something like this: Majority: Me/MZ, ET, sloosh Minority: Me/MZ The one in the minority of us would give the one in the majority 5 votes. If one of ET/sloosh thought the other one was scum, he wouldn't give him votes, therefore he would die alone or along the other one of you two. Hopefully, the townie out of you doesn't vote the scum out of you, meaning the scum out of you dies. It will be 2-1 at night with my KP in hand, so a win. Yeah, that was my plan. I really wanted to see if it would have worked though >_> Hey.. it's 6am in the morning. Fucking game always keeping me awake >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 14:54 GMT
#1754
If we had planned for sandro to give votes, to let's say, Katina or sloosh, then we could have ACTUALLY gotten sandroba lynched as well! That would have been more fun! (I can't imagine the face of ET had that happened ) On May 25 2012 22:36 chaoser wrote: Ok, basically the only reason I didnted survive day 4 was because palmar voted early in the day and couldn't give me his votes. Sandroba and I were playing for a joint mafia draw at that point with a small chance of backstabbing and he was willing to out palmar for me since apparently palmar wasnt communicating well with his team at the moment. Obviously he was not willing to out ET since he was deep in the circle and I told him I couldn't be saved by putting my teammate (cause gonzaw was also deep in the townie circle). Sandroba thought ceph was on my team thus I would be saved no problem but when he learned he wasn't, I was fucked. Ceph also gave his votes early that day so my negotiations with him to get someone else lynched that day fell through and he wasn't able to help. Ehm....did you know Cephiro would give Wiggles 2 votes? Please tell me you didn't >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 15:46 GMT
#1757
Damn, I think my plan would have worked then Also, I'm adding all my PMs from this game, so if someone has A LOT of free time, feel free to check them It would be nice if this forum had a feature to work with PMs easier. Like having the option of posting PMs directly, or posting groups of them, or having the options of the mods checking those PMs as well (as in, if I send a PM to MZ for instance, both Ver and Incog would get a copy of it, so they know everything about the game). EDIT: chaoser, if BC was alive by Day 4 (with our alliance)...I'm sure both of you would have been lynched at the same time or something, considering our luck >_> | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 16:04 GMT
#1759
On May 26 2012 00:56 slOosh wrote: I had him and you pegged as mafia. It wasn't turning on him since we were never of the same alignment. I guess I got caught up in making convoluted plans, and should have just pushed my read hard in the thread, but I felt like his "town read" on me was something I could manipulate. What I mean is that you didn't think he was townie. That was enough for me. | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 17:00 GMT
#1761
I only posted the ones from my inbox, so if there's a single PM I sent someone and they didn't reply back I missed it (except for a few that I put) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 25 2012 22:44 GMT
#1773
On May 26 2012 04:27 sandroba wrote: I loved my award too hahaha <3 @gonzaw I outed palmar because I though he needed saving and that cephiro was scum. I didn't think that chaoser would get lynched and wanted to save him, so I thought we needed a higher number of votes on palmar. Sorry for playing a poor game. RL fucked me over in the first days, so when I got back pretty much everyone thought I was scum. Thus nobody trusted me in pms and I didn't really know what to do to change that, so I just gave up on trying to pretend at that point. And yeah I was totally up for joint mafia victory, I wasn't trying to screw you guys over, but I was afraid you would screw us over =P. If you guys didn't want to get chaoser lynched...then not trying to save Wiggles would have been a good choice >_> Well, then my analysis of the situation which made me think ET was confirmed town we pretty fucked up then Like, I thought that if you guys knew Palmar had 5 votes already (from prplhz), then there was no need for chaoser to give him 5 votes at all, and there would be no need to out him. ...I guess you really trusted us or something I just assumed you were some coldhearted bastards that wanted to fuck with us at any time, and because of that I thought that you wouldn't out Palmar to us if you knew about prplhz's votes >_> @wbg: check my PMs from page 86 to see the "circle" we formed after you guys died (at least from my POV) | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 26 2012 01:08 GMT
#1775
I still can't believe how lucky Harimoto got and how unlucky we got lol (yeah, some good/bad play was probably mixed in there though). Seriously, I can't believe how everything I planned just turned to shit, like literally (well not literally). I guess it made for good entertainment though | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 26 2012 02:10 GMT
#1779
On May 26 2012 11:06 chaoser wrote: Show nested quote + On May 26 2012 10:08 gonzaw wrote: Hey chaoser, did you still think ET was scum even after sandro claimed Palmar was scum to you? I still can't believe how lucky Harimoto got and how unlucky we got lol (yeah, some good/bad play was probably mixed in there though). Seriously, I can't believe how everything I planned just turned to shit, like literally (well not literally). I guess it made for good entertainment though Yes. I thought palmar and ET were mafia. Once I found out from sandro that ceph wasn't mafia with him, I knew it was palmar and ET. But by then round b ended and I couldn't very well tell you my reads. So you didn't have that conundrum I had then >_> Also, the fact that all 3 of them voted the same on Day 3 didn't make you doubt that read or anything? | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 26 2012 02:16 GMT
#1781
EDIT: I don't want to bother you too much, but I'd like Ver or Incog's thoughts of my play, and what I could have improved, etc (I mean, both of them basically said I was obvious scum in the thread, so I guess I should have lots to improve ) Also, I'd like to know how I did in PM-land. This is basically the 2nd PM game I played in all my life (1st one was on UG), but I didn't really PM anybody my 1st time so it's technically my 1st PM game. EDIT: Also missed this: By Incognito: (surprisingly nobody ever went through and put together a list of all the previous voting rounds though...) .... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333034¤tpage=75#1495 >_> <_< | ||
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
May 26 2012 06:56 GMT
#1782
Isn't that exciting!? | ||
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ESL Pro Tour
World Team League
ESL Pro Tour
BSL
Gypsy vs Bonyth
Mihu vs XiaoShuai
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
ESL Open Cup
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