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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
I've already explained why, but I'll do some more. Jailbreaker's attempted stall of the vote came right when momentum was shifting from Aces to Veriat. I find this suspicious. But even if he flips town, I won't be too sad because his play has been very low-level and perhaps even toxic to the town. Off to work, hope things start to move, because the last vote got very stressful. In fact, this is how the lead-up to the last vote made me feel  Just found out how to do that BTW...  | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 07:42 Pure-SC2 wrote: WhySoMuch - you don't speak for the town. So far at least 3 people have found your actions suspicious, so if you really are town you need to start thinking a bit more about how you're playing and what you're actually doing to help the town. I am trying to keep the village from wasting a day talking about why someone is a mafia because they don't post when they are likely town. Now, if you believe Splinter is a Mafia because of reasons outside of "he hasn't posted in x amount of time" then I'm all for posting that. But afaik, he is a Town and very likely town, so soft-pushing him because he isn't here is pointless. You may not like me talking in absoletes but to say I'm not helping the town is pretty lol. I'm confident Splinter is a town, and therefore I don't believe he should be lynched, happy? On May 01 2012 07:50 Mordanis wrote: ... Then the mafia would only have to lurk, and the active posters would kill themselves off while the scum kill off another one each night. Just two iterations of this, and its down to 4 town and 2 mafia. To be clear, I'm not going to say that we should automatically lynch whoever posts the least, but if we have to decide between lynching a lurker or someone who contributes, I'll go with the lurker. If the person we lynch is mafia, we did well either way. But if we mislynch, I'd much rather lose a townie who contributes little than a townie who contributes a lot. Also, Hi Marvellosity! gl catching up with everything, hope you post some new insight! And this is where we disagree. In your scenario, I would vote for the person I feel is most likely mafia. Yes the lurker would look worse to start, but if he made a vote that they don't make as a mafia, then I'm gonna vote for the other guy. I can contribute all I want, I would do the same a Mafia. I don't think all 3 mafia are going to be lurkers. | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 08:47 marvellosity wrote: The second person I am most interested in is WhySoMuch. There were a couple of things that stood out at me just browsing the thread: 1) lots of vote changes. Doesn't have to be alignment indicative, but it stood out 2) The only quote from someone I actually have written down - "Town reads are more important than mafia reads". Interesting - I thought we were here to lynch scum. He expressed the same opinion AGAIN, and then listed his own town reads. Unless I am mistaken, this also happened at night. Sounds like it could be town-read fishing -> mafia kills. Lists of town reads, especially at night, are bad, mmkay? Like I said, they only give mafia targets. If you have people you think are pretty likely town - good!! You don't need to tell all of us. Do you really think that saying "blabla seems extremely townie" is going to convince anyone that person is town if they didn't think so already? 3) He called out golden very quickly saying that if Veriat was scum, golden was scum. Say whaaaaaaaat? So someone casts the deciding vote to lynch a scum and they're scum? I mean, it's possible, sure, but that's an incredible leap to make. It does point out that Whysomuch is extremely aware that scum could be bussing scum to try to gain towncred. Related to this is that he points out himself that he looks good for voting Veriat. So he looks awesomely townie for lynching the scum and golden, the guy who actually got the scum lynched, looks scummy. k. Anyway, reading the filters is an even bigger task than reading the thread, but I will work on it diligently. There's some food for thought in the meanwhile. 2nd point) Yes we are here to lynch scum, but the only way mafias win is by mislynches. By establishing our town reads, we take away mislynches. You see the same names popping up on town lists and those people all of a sudden become unlynchable, thereby taking away mislynches. The point of having town reads isn't to convince other people to have the same town reads, it's that if everyone makes a town reads list, you have a group of players that will show up on multiple lists, thereby increasing our chances of hitting a mafia. 3rd point) No it isn't, he was forced to make the vote. If he didn't it would automatically be mafia/mafia no questions asked. He put Veriat on his mafia list and was "Happy to vote him". He was also Pro-D1 lynch in the discussion earlier, and if he didn't vote that would go against his policy. No this doesn't automatically mean he is a mafia, but awarding town points to Golden is wrong. | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
Yeah, I do look better than Golden, So does Splinter so does PureSC so does Mordanis. The deciding vote there is not what got Veriat lynched, and the town successfully twisted Golden's arm to vote a mafia, that may not be the right phrase, as Golden could be a town in which case we still "forced" him to vote Veriat, but Golden would do that anyways in that scenario, but if he were mafia and the votes were say 5-3, then golden would not have had to switch. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On May 01 2012 09:56 WhySoMuch wrote: 2nd point) Yes we are here to lynch scum, but the only way mafias win is by mislynches. By establishing our town reads, we take away mislynches. You see the same names popping up on town lists and those people all of a sudden become unlynchable, thereby taking away mislynches. The point of having town reads isn't to convince other people to have the same town reads, it's that if everyone makes a town reads list, you have a group of players that will show up on multiple lists, thereby increasing our chances of hitting a mafia. 3rd point) No it isn't, he was forced to make the vote. If he didn't it would automatically be mafia/mafia no questions asked. He put Veriat on his mafia list and was "Happy to vote him". He was also Pro-D1 lynch in the discussion earlier, and if he didn't vote that would go against his policy. No this doesn't automatically mean he is a mafia, but awarding town points to Golden is wrong. To the bold - what is this nonsense? People don't become unlynchable for turning up on lists, that's absurd. People are unlynchable when they're dead. If a couple of people have someone down as a town-read and I think he's scum, is that going to stop me making a case on them? No, of course it isn't. You don't find mafia because people turn up on lists. You find mafia because they are scummy, simple as that. On May 01 2012 10:00 WhySoMuch wrote: to add to your 3rd point: Yeah, I do look better than Golden, So does Splinter so does PureSC so does Mordanis. The deciding vote there is not what got Veriat lynched, and the town successfully twisted Golden's arm to vote a mafia, that may not be the right phrase, as Golden could be a town in which case we still "forced" him to vote Veriat, but Golden would do that anyways in that scenario, but if he were mafia and the votes were say 5-3, then golden would not have had to switch. So in the scenario where scum decides to bus Veriat, is it not more likely that they do so in the midst of the voting rather than at the end? golden wasn't 'forced' to vote for anyone, he voted who he wanted to. He could have made a non-vote earlier on in the day on someone like aces (me) or whoever was suspicious at the time. You seem to have a preconceived notion of how people 'should' play - well, people don't necessarily play like that. You're inventing narratives that to you sound likely, but they are not necessarily true, or even the likeliest narrative. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:00 WhySoMuch wrote: to add to your 3rd point: Yeah, I do look better than Golden, So does Splinter so does PureSC so does Mordanis. The deciding vote there is not what got Veriat lynched, and the town successfully twisted Golden's arm to vote a mafia, that may not be the right phrase, as Golden could be a town in which case we still "forced" him to vote Veriat, but Golden would do that anyways in that scenario, but if he were mafia and the votes were say 5-3, then golden would not have had to switch. I'm gonna carry on, because I really must make you think about things properly. So this post says - in a scenario that didn't happen (5-3), golden may have acted in a different manner. Right. Further to this, in the scenario that actually occurred, a townie golden would vote for Veriat, and in your world, a scummy one would. Thus golden would be voting for Veriat whichever alignment he is. Further further to this, a townie golden would practically always vote for Veriat in that situation to force a lynch, whereas a scummy golden could potentially take the option to force a no-lynch, saving his scumbuddy. See how silly your analysis of the situation is? | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:14 marvellosity wrote: To the bold - what is this nonsense? People don't become unlynchable for turning up on lists, that's absurd. People are unlynchable when they're dead. If a couple of people have someone down as a town-read and I think he's scum, is that going to stop me making a case on them? No, of course it isn't. You don't find mafia because people turn up on lists. You find mafia because they are scummy, simple as that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So in the scenario where scum decides to bus Veriat, is it not more likely that they do so in the midst of the voting rather than at the end? golden wasn't 'forced' to vote for anyone, he voted who he wanted to. He could have made a non-vote earlier on in the day on someone like aces (me) or whoever was suspicious at the time. You seem to have a preconceived notion of how people 'should' play - well, people don't necessarily play like that. You're inventing narratives that to you sound likely, but they are not necessarily true, or even the likeliest narrative. When they show up on multiple lists it effectively means they become unlynchable because no one wants to vote them, everyone thinks they are town. If you disagree, and think they are mafia, great, write about it and maybe people will see what your seeing. But you do find Mafia from effectively eliminating players that aren't mafia. I'm not the best at explaining it, but I promise you Town Reads > Mafia Reads. Trust me on this one. Yes, he was "forced" or all his posts leading up to it don't make sense. He called Veriat a mafia before he had a vote. He never changed that read, now he also called Aces(you) a mafia, so he kept his vote on Aces(you). But when it became apparent that it was either lynching Veriat or No lynching, he has to vote his mafia read or else his play doesn't make sense. This doesn't make him scum though. But you are saying it makes him look good, and it doesn't. I do have a preconceived notion of how people should play, But it's a notion that has logical backing and logical progression to it. If it wasn't Golden, say it was someone that was Pro-No Lynch and didn't have a read on Veriat, then not voting makes sense in that scenario. But because it was Golden, he had to make that vote. Whether, he is town or mafia, he makes that vote either way. And my suspicion is raised on how he made that vote, but that has been beaten to the ground and not going anywhere, so we moved on. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
I also did not say it made golden looked good, I said your assertion that he was scum (your words were something like "If veriat is scum, i believe golden is scum") which I totally dissected in my last post. As it appears I will fail in my bid to make you see common sense, I shall stop this back and forth with you. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:36 marvellosity wrote: No, no-one wants to vote for them because they believe they are townie, not because they are on a stupid list. Jesus christ. Yes, it helps you to find mafia if you have town reads. But that's an individual thing. To make other people see your point of view if they don't, you'd have to make a "town case" which is getting ludicrous. I also did not say it made golden looked good, I said your assertion that he was scum (your words were something like "If veriat is scum, i believe golden is scum") which I totally dissected in my last post. As it appears I will fail in my bid to make you see common sense, I shall stop this back and forth with you. Yeah, this is pointless. You haven't read my posts, and the topic has already been beaten to the ground. He makes the vote either way, but it's HOW he made the vote that makes it weird. but like i said its already been beaten. If you focus more on Town reads than mafia reads, the game becomes easier. Free advice, take it or leave it. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
Just sayin' | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
By making a Town List, other people can see your thought process. By allowing others to see your thought process, you become easier to clear. That is our job as town, become clear. If we do that, we win 100% of the time. With everyone making a Town List, it then forces Mafia to also make Town list's. This poses a dilemna to them because they know they have to "lie" in some cases and call their teammates Town. If there is a lack of thought process in putting that person as a town, it then incriminates them. If they don't put mafia in there town list, they will eventually have to vote each other. Both of these equaling town profit. I'm glad we've had this invigorating discussion. I highly doubt you are a mafia though, so good has come out of it. | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
either, "Alright well I'll" or "Alright I'll" somehow I combined well and I'll | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
Find ONE, yes only ONE, good player on this forum who lists town-reads (at night no less) and encourages others to do the same. Pro-tip: you won't find one. | ||
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 11:01 marvellosity wrote: I'll spell it out for you by giving you the marvellosity challenge: Find ONE, yes only ONE, good player on this forum who lists town-reads (at night no less) and encourages others to do the same. Pro-tip: you won't find one. Alright, well I haven't read any games on here but I'll take your word for it. If that's how people play here it is what it is. I strongly disagree with it but I'm not gonna argue with it if that's standard | ||
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O.Golden_ne
Australia204 Posts
On May 01 2012 10:36 marvellosity wrote: As it appears I will fail in my bid to make you see common sense, I shall stop this back and forth with you. The worst part for me is that i get a town read from him, i've wasted a lot of my input trying to get his head in the game. Thoughts... Here are some queries i have before i do another mind-splurge on this thread. 1. Nreekay324 You posted a decent argument against Jailbreaker in a spoiler on your D1 Summary post. Nreekay324's Filter What would it take to change your vote from AcesAnoka (marvellosity) in the same post, to Jailbreaker? I feel like your argument against Jailbreaker looks stronger than this one against AcesAnoka (marvellosity): A number of arguments have been made, and not much to add to them because he hasn’t been posting much. He, like other lurkers, should be pressured D2. What got the successful D1 lynch was from pressuring lurkers (yomi called out veriat for this very reason). We need to keep this up. 2. marvellosity You've shown a much deeper level of perception that AcesAnoka ever did, and it's exactly what you'll need to keep doing to stay in the game. I feel if you can maintain few solid posts with little contradiction you may have earnt your character's standing in the game. You've certainly grilled WhySoMuch on a fair portion of his logic, however i can't help but wonder if this is scapegoating because you do need to establish yourself within the team and he is certainly an unusual character. I have my own thoughts on him which i've shared, and i think he holds a unique position within the group as a finger pointer now that yomi's voice has been nullified. 3. Mordanis I want your analysis of Nreekay324's connections to other players. 4. WhySoMuch Can you explain Jailbreakers connections to other players in the group in a list? thx Thank you in advance for your timely responses. Golden. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
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WhySoMuch
132 Posts
On May 01 2012 11:23 O.Golden_ne wrote: 4. WhySoMuch Can you explain Jailbreakers connections to other players in the group in a list? thx I think too many assumptions have to made and there's still a lot of uncertainty in today's lynch even though Jail does seem like the leading candidate. If he is lynched, then I will go back and look at connections. In fewer words, basically what Marvelous said | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36160 Posts
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