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syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
April 02 2012 05:27 GMT
#301
Bluelightz hasn't so far said anything that indicates to me that he isn't playing his normal game, besides possibly his x,y,z,a are town post, so I wouldn't kill him right now. You on the other hand haven't quite been playing your confident style and have been asking more questions than usual, so if I were to push someone right now it would be you.
Snarfs
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1006 Posts
April 02 2012 05:28 GMT
#302
Gonna head to bed now. If I didn't make my decision clear to anyone, feel free to ask.

I'll answer anything addressed towards me tomorrow.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
April 02 2012 05:49 GMT
#303
On April 02 2012 14:27 syllogism wrote:
Bluelightz hasn't so far said anything that indicates to me that he isn't playing his normal game, besides possibly his x,y,z,a are town post, so I wouldn't kill him right now. You on the other hand haven't quite been playing your confident style and have been asking more questions than usual, so if I were to push someone right now it would be you.


if you think I am scum, you can push me.

Mind linking me to a game that Bluelightz has played as town that supports your assertion? Because quite frankly, I don't believe you.
Tobon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States372 Posts
April 02 2012 05:54 GMT
#304
On April 02 2012 14:24 Snarfs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 14:21 syllogism wrote:
How is using a pull as a rolecheck wasteful? Pulls can generally only be used to "save" someone, which isn't particularly towny as especially early on that means using your power against the wishes of the majority. Furthermore, since then people have been pulling palmar towards the item quite "lightly"; are they too suspicious?

It's the way he said it. Saying that it wasn't the best use of a PoP, but he didn't really care. Plus, seriously, if he was going to lie about that it would be found out pretty damn fast by someone who actually was in favour of pushing him towards the item. Hence, it makes sense from people like VE and Mattchew, because they've at least expressed interest in him getting the item.

Also, look at cascades entire post. It's pure fluff plus this rolecheck which I thought was pointless.


I agree with all this. I'm not liking Cascades' post and pull either.

However, pushing him is still a bad idea right now. Because of the two-toys-fill-a-row bumping mechanic, the more spread out we toys get the more pushes it takes to get anyone into the fire zone. The worst thing we can do as good toys is to end up almost killing several suspects instead of making sure to get one or two.

As long as we're talking about queue mechanics, I'll make explicit something I've just been hinting at as well: we have no control over Palmar. Anyone thinking "we let him get the item and then if he acts scummy we just don't push him back out of the fire" isn't considering that he can happily hang out in the fire zone and just flip the queue if it seems like he might end the day there.

That having been said, though, we can take advantage of that situation by leaving Palmar exactly where he is. Our two biggest lurkers, risk.nuke and Sbrubbles probably figure they are safe because they are near the bottom, Blue is hard to lynch because he's down there too. If we _pull_ (1) Blue, (2) Blue, (3) Sbrubbles, (4) risk, (5) Blue, and then let Palmar swap ends then we get all three of what look like the scummiest so far with only 5 pulls. If Palmar is town, he'll agree to the plan, and if he's scum he'd have to sacrifice himself by not using his power and dying in order to save those 3, which he wouldn't do unless 1 or more of them are also scum, so we'd end up killing one scum and identifying more.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
April 02 2012 05:55 GMT
#305
Why don't you first explain what in his play makes you think he isn't playing his usual town game? Just the "this post kind of looks coached" post? All I am seeing is the same kind of short posts he always makes and his tone doesn't seem any different than normal. A bit earlier you said you don't want to push bluelightz because you dont want to use your PoP yet, but now you are encouraging me to use mine; this doesn't seem like the confident town wbg but rather the more careful scum one.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
April 02 2012 06:19 GMT
#306
I said I didn't want to push Bluelightz over 6 hours ago. I have since already pushed. He clearly has no intention of continuing to post. I didn't want to push him that long ago because I thought he might post. In such a long time he has chosen to continue to stay away from the thread, which indicates that he has no interest in providing reads or establishing himself as town.

On April 02 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote:
Just the "this post kind of looks coached" post?


I never said he looks coached.

On April 02 2012 14:55 syllogism wrote:
All I am seeing is the same kind of short posts he always makes and his tone doesn't seem any different than normal. A bit earlier you said you don't want to push bluelightz because you dont want to use your PoP yet, but now you are encouraging me to use mine; this doesn't seem like the confident town wbg but rather the more careful scum one.


It has nothing to do with the tone of his posts but rather his activity.

Bluelightz chose to begin playing, and upon receiving pressure, he immediately disappeared. He has since said nothing. This is identical to how he acted in my mini upon receiving pressure (as the scum roleblocker). layabout agreed; he was hydraed with him.

Could I be wrong? Sure. But as town he posts more than he has done so in this game.

look at these two scum filters:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319120&user=235418&currentpage=2

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321159&user=256428

Then look at this town filter:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315210&user=235418&currentpage=2

when no one is talking, he encourages discussion. In this game, he just says "idk what to do". He additionally has much more content in his posts than when he is scum. No, it's not a ton more than the average townie, but you can clearly tell that there's a difference merely in the amount of effort he wants to put in.

My only concern at the moment for this game is that there has been relatively little pressure and discussion about scum. Too much time has been spent on discussing Palmar and the item (speaking of Palmar, he has yet to do anything as well, and he seemed fine with the idea of going for the item, not even fearing for his life). In the case Bluelightz is not scum we have no alternate.

wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
April 02 2012 06:22 GMT
#307
that one noob and risk.nuke not posting at all also concerns me.
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
April 02 2012 06:24 GMT
#308
Current positions - Day 1
+ Show Spoiler +

24.[Item] [___________]
23.[___________] [___________]
22.[Palmar] [___________]
21.[___________] [___________]

20.[___________][___________]
19.[___________] [___________]
18.[___________] [___________]
17.[Mr.Wiggles] [cascades]
16.[Nemesis][___________]
15. [Dirkzor] [Mr.Zentor]
14.[VisceraEyes] [Bill Murray]
13.[Snarfs][Tobon]
12.[wherebugsgo][prplhz]
11. [Acrofales][___________]
10.[Mattchew][Bluelightz]
9. [layabout][___________]
8. [Sbrubbles][___________]
7. [risk.nuke][syllogism]
6. [Cephiro][___________]
5. [___________][___________]
4. [___________][___________]
3. [___________] [___________]
2. [___________] [___________]
1. [___________] [___________]


PoPs - Day 1
+ Show Spoiler +


Mr.Wiggles
Bluelightz
VisceraEyes Pull Palmar Push Bluelightz
risk.nuke
Sbrubbles
Dirkzor
Mattchew Pull Palmar
Snarfs Push cascades
Cephiro
Tobon
wherebugsgo Push Bluelightz
layabout
syllogism
Mr.Zentor
prplhz
Acrofales
Bill Murray Pull Palmar
cascadesPull Palmar
Palmar
Nemesis Push Tobon



Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
April 02 2012 06:49 GMT
#309
Also I'm reconsidering whether I believe BM's claim. He says he can move up to 3 spots and thus potentially day dt check 5 people. It seems like a way too powerful ability with huge variance. He also claims he had to "go through snarf", when in reality he started next to him, which seems like an inconsistency in the claim. Then he proceeds to claim that it's a one-time use ability, thus providing an explanation for the possibility that he won't get killed or roleblocked later on. I'm not sure what his motivation for moving is if he is scum, but I can imagine a number of possibilities for a role that, as he says, "latches on to" another player.
Dirkzor
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Denmark1944 Posts
April 02 2012 07:26 GMT
#310
On April 02 2012 14:54 Tobon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 14:24 Snarfs wrote:
On April 02 2012 14:21 syllogism wrote:
How is using a pull as a rolecheck wasteful? Pulls can generally only be used to "save" someone, which isn't particularly towny as especially early on that means using your power against the wishes of the majority. Furthermore, since then people have been pulling palmar towards the item quite "lightly"; are they too suspicious?

It's the way he said it. Saying that it wasn't the best use of a PoP, but he didn't really care. Plus, seriously, if he was going to lie about that it would be found out pretty damn fast by someone who actually was in favour of pushing him towards the item. Hence, it makes sense from people like VE and Mattchew, because they've at least expressed interest in him getting the item.

Also, look at cascades entire post. It's pure fluff plus this rolecheck which I thought was pointless.


I agree with all this. I'm not liking Cascades' post and pull either.

However, pushing him is still a bad idea right now. Because of the two-toys-fill-a-row bumping mechanic, the more spread out we toys get the more pushes it takes to get anyone into the fire zone. The worst thing we can do as good toys is to end up almost killing several suspects instead of making sure to get one or two.

As long as we're talking about queue mechanics, I'll make explicit something I've just been hinting at as well: we have no control over Palmar. Anyone thinking "we let him get the item and then if he acts scummy we just don't push him back out of the fire" isn't considering that he can happily hang out in the fire zone and just flip the queue if it seems like he might end the day there.

That having been said, though, we can take advantage of that situation by leaving Palmar exactly where he is. Our two biggest lurkers, risk.nuke and Sbrubbles probably figure they are safe because they are near the bottom, Blue is hard to lynch because he's down there too. If we _pull_ (1) Blue, (2) Blue, (3) Sbrubbles, (4) risk, (5) Blue, and then let Palmar swap ends then we get all three of what look like the scummiest so far with only 5 pulls. If Palmar is town, he'll agree to the plan, and if he's scum he'd have to sacrifice himself by not using his power and dying in order to save those 3, which he wouldn't do unless 1 or more of them are also scum, so we'd end up killing one scum and identifying more.

How do you know Palmar have the power to flip the queue? He havent said so himself and we have no evidence he can do such a thing. (Yes it might be similar to a power from DFM1 but you are just assuming to much)
"HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU ON TOP AGAIN???? HOW DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS????" -Julmust (also, thats what she said)
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
April 02 2012 08:08 GMT
#311
On April 02 2012 15:49 syllogism wrote:
Also I'm reconsidering whether I believe BM's claim. He says he can move up to 3 spots up or down on the belt... rungs if you will, yes. and thus potentially day dt check 5 people possibly more, i didn't check the maximum number, because that would be inefficient if someone was scum and prevented me from moving anywhere. It seems like a way too powerful ability with huge variance. it does have a huge variance, and it is a powerful ability, as it can be used like a daytime cop ability. it is one time use, however, so i am essentially a vanilla townie now He also claims he had to "go through snarf", snarf was to the left of me, which would logically be the way it would be going upwards to latch onto VE, whereas if i went right, or down, I wouldn't check snarf, no when in reality he started next to him, which seems like an inconsistency in the claim. it's not an inconsistency. Look at how you write on a piece of paper. Then he proceeds to claim that it's a one-time use ability, It is a one time use ability. thus providing an explanation for the possibility that he won't get killed or roleblocked later on. I won't get roleblocked later on, but if scum are smart, they will still look to kill me. I am also fine with dying, as it will clear 2 town in snarf and VE. I'm not sure what his motivation for moving is if he is scum, but I can imagine a number of possibilities for a role that, as he says, "latches on to" another player. and I can imagine a giant spaghetti monster, but that doesn't mean it exists.


my responses italicized
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22634 Posts
April 02 2012 08:11 GMT
#312
re bm, i agree w prplhz's initial reaction and wouldn't mind killing him for bads
Computer says mafia
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18464 Posts
April 02 2012 08:12 GMT
#313
On April 02 2012 14:54 Tobon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 14:24 Snarfs wrote:
On April 02 2012 14:21 syllogism wrote:
How is using a pull as a rolecheck wasteful? Pulls can generally only be used to "save" someone, which isn't particularly towny as especially early on that means using your power against the wishes of the majority. Furthermore, since then people have been pulling palmar towards the item quite "lightly"; are they too suspicious?

It's the way he said it. Saying that it wasn't the best use of a PoP, but he didn't really care. Plus, seriously, if he was going to lie about that it would be found out pretty damn fast by someone who actually was in favour of pushing him towards the item. Hence, it makes sense from people like VE and Mattchew, because they've at least expressed interest in him getting the item.

Also, look at cascades entire post. It's pure fluff plus this rolecheck which I thought was pointless.


I agree with all this. I'm not liking Cascades' post and pull either.

However, pushing him is still a bad idea right now. Because of the two-toys-fill-a-row bumping mechanic, the more spread out we toys get the more pushes it takes to get anyone into the fire zone. The worst thing we can do as good toys is to end up almost killing several suspects instead of making sure to get one or two.

As long as we're talking about queue mechanics, I'll make explicit something I've just been hinting at as well: we have no control over Palmar. Anyone thinking "we let him get the item and then if he acts scummy we just don't push him back out of the fire" isn't considering that he can happily hang out in the fire zone and just flip the queue if it seems like he might end the day there.

That having been said, though, we can take advantage of that situation by leaving Palmar exactly where he is. Our two biggest lurkers, risk.nuke and Sbrubbles probably figure they are safe because they are near the bottom, Blue is hard to lynch because he's down there too. If we _pull_ (1) Blue, (2) Blue, (3) Sbrubbles, (4) risk, (5) Blue, and then let Palmar swap ends then we get all three of what look like the scummiest so far with only 5 pulls. If Palmar is town, he'll agree to the plan, and if he's scum he'd have to sacrifice himself by not using his power and dying in order to save those 3, which he wouldn't do unless 1 or more of them are also scum, so we'd end up killing one scum and identifying more.

Hey Tobon, your entire post sounds like scum to me. You are proposing to get Palmar to the item and leaving him there, giving him as only escape a power we don't even know he has. That is absolutely ridiculously retarded.

Congratz for now topping my scumometer!
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22634 Posts
April 02 2012 08:14 GMT
#314
cascades is town btw.
Computer says mafia
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22634 Posts
April 02 2012 08:20 GMT
#315
how does this kid know my role?
Computer says mafia
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18464 Posts
April 02 2012 08:22 GMT
#316
As for the people who pulled him up there without a plan to get him down, you're all second on my scumometer, with palmar himself as well, because it is a plan with too many ifs, buts and general assumptions with too little rewards.
That is: VisceralEyes, Mattchew, BillMurray, cascades and Palmar himself.

However, now that he's up there, we should probably make the best of a bad (did I say bad? I meant horrible terrible stupid) situation. I need 3 volunteers to join me in pushing him back down out of the danger zone, and one someone to pull him up the last rung.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18464 Posts
April 02 2012 08:22 GMT
#317
On April 02 2012 17:20 Palmar wrote:
how does this kid know my role?

You claiming the queue switch ability?
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22634 Posts
April 02 2012 08:25 GMT
#318
yea, but i want to know how he knows
Computer says mafia
Palmar
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Iceland22634 Posts
April 02 2012 08:28 GMT
#319
On April 02 2012 17:22 Acrofales wrote:
As for the people who pulled him up there without a plan to get him down, you're all second on my scumometer, with palmar himself as well, because it is a plan with too many ifs, buts and general assumptions with too little rewards.
That is: VisceralEyes, Mattchew, BillMurray, cascades and Palmar himself.

However, now that he's up there, we should probably make the best of a bad (did I say bad? I meant horrible terrible stupid) situation. I need 3 volunteers to join me in pushing him back down out of the danger zone, and one someone to pull him up the last rung.


you need to prove yourself smart before you call people stupid.
Computer says mafia
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18464 Posts
April 02 2012 08:44 GMT
#320
On April 02 2012 17:28 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2012 17:22 Acrofales wrote:
As for the people who pulled him up there without a plan to get him down, you're all second on my scumometer, with palmar himself as well, because it is a plan with too many ifs, buts and general assumptions with too little rewards.
That is: VisceralEyes, Mattchew, BillMurray, cascades and Palmar himself.

However, now that he's up there, we should probably make the best of a bad (did I say bad? I meant horrible terrible stupid) situation. I need 3 volunteers to join me in pushing him back down out of the danger zone, and one someone to pull him up the last rung.


you need to prove yourself smart before you call people stupid.

You just proved that you had a backup plan for being in the fire, which makes your cooperation at least somewhat understandable. Still risky, but less so now. Everybody else just went for it, based on the assumption that mafia does not have some nasty ability to push you off the queue and someone (else) would push you back out of the fire zone.

I don't have to be smart to recognise stupid. Of course, I am, in fact, incredibly stupendously smart.

Btw, I still don't think it's a good idea, but I have to admit, It's a better idea now than it was before you claimed.

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