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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Yes, I dunno why but all of the Obs QT was convinced ET was scum by D2, but I'm more concerned how no townie even tried to analyse ET in the whole game. Either way, since the Obs QT has nothing to do with the game (and the fact that all that's said in the Obs QT can be trusted, so it's easier to make analysis and share ideas), you've played great fooling every townie. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On February 19 2012 11:21 gonzaw wrote: Yes, I dunno why but all of the Obs QT was convinced ET was scum by D2, but I'm more concerned how no townie even tried to analyse ET in the whole game. Evidently you didn't read the whole game. I said (I think night 2) that either ET or Sentinel was mafia. Obviously I picked the wrong one. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On February 19 2012 11:26 TheToast wrote: Evidently you didn't read the whole game. I said (I think night 2) that either ET or Sentinel was mafia. Obviously I picked the wrong one. But when Sentinel died, you backed off ET. Anyways, considering everybody was convinced Sentinel was mafia, saying "Either ET or Sentinel is mafia" sounds more like "Sentinel is mafia" rather than "ET is mafia" Also, you were one of the townies that made most sense, so I'm not talking to you particularly, I'm talking to town in general. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5244 Posts
I'm doing this kind of free-form and without pre-thought, so it might be sort of all over the place. First of all, my sincerest apologies to Timeaisis, Sinensis, and TheToast; I insulted/berated you guys to try and achieve my win condition. I hope you didn't take it personally and will still play TL Mafia. I'm still working on my playstyle for both town and mafia, and this game I might've gone a little too far at times. Personally: The Good: -Game plan: I essentially wanted to play a game similar to my first game (make big analytical posts that look convincing, but are utterly wrong), but I knew that I would have to be more active considering my two teammates we're being lurky. This worked out VERY WELL; even though my play was not as solid as it could have been, as I had a few slips of suspicion, by the end game, I had worked up enough cred that there was no way I could have been lynched over one of the lurkers. -prplhz: My attachment to prplhz worked better than I could have expected. At the very start of the game I knew that prplhz was a threat due to his prior experience with sinani. My initial game plan revolved around getting prplhz mislynched D2, then taking down the people accusing him (TheToast, maybe Sentinel or someone). However, prplhz busted out that shot on sinani and my game went to hell. Luckily, I hadn't made a real stand on prplhz and had been soft defending him by arguing against the logic on him. That, coupled with the fact that prplhz liked my reads, meant that when he became confirmed townie, there was almost no way I was going to be lynched. Confirmed townies can be very powerful for town, but this game showed the danger of Mafia buddying; I was in prplhz blindspot, and even if he had suspected me, he was not going to pursue me over others. -Sowing chaos while pretending not to: There were a lot of players who were disrupting town environment unintentionally. Prplhz, for voting kind of erratically without analysis (in a game full of new players, voting w/o analysis is taboo), Sinensis vote leader plan, Sentinel's aloof nature, etc. Because I criticized all of this less-than-pro-town actions, it looked as though I was trying to keep the town together, when in reality, by criticizing all of these people I increased discord. The Bad: -Looks accountable, actually not at all: My calling out of Timeaisis was not anti-town, in my personal opinion. If I was town, I could still see myself thinking that Timeaisis was a newbie scum. However, as prplhz hinted at, after D1 my appearance became much less assured. I didn't commit as strongly as I did before. If people had scrutinized the thread more, they would notice that I barely interacted with BF, and that my analysis on him only came after it was all but assured he was going to be lynched. I'm not sure how to rectify this; I feel that trying to appear like an over-confident townie for too long is dangerous, but if I shy away from that in later days, I look bad, as the obs QT furiously claimed. -we bad at making shots: This one, I'm not quite sure on, but I think the Mafia shots could have been better. We were only able to spot the blues after they both claimed, and we shot people with low town presence anyways. My overall plan was to shoot out the blues, because I felt that a lot of the scummy players I could get mislynched. It also was good that we didn't shoot TheToast, as he got medic protected, but still: I had no clue that Sentinel was blue, except for that small hint he left out. And of course, his claim rofl rofl. Do you guys think that the shots Mafia made were good? Were there any earlier signs that Sentinel was a medic? Also, as a rule of thumb is it better to try and go blue hunting, or to shoot dangerous townies with town-cred? -dat vet claim: It was fun to do, but it brought unnecessary attention. The Delay mechanic in this game was more powerful than I expected; it helped me hide behind the scummy/lurky townies. However, I should have just delayed, let the town speculate about what happened to the KP, then win the game with ease. -communication: we needed more of it, simply put. sinani dying so early was detrimental for this, of course. In General -Town needs good environment!!: The town in this game loved to argue with each other: prplhz and TheToast especially. Because TheToast comitted very early to a strong scum read on prplhz, prplhz was never going to fully back TheToast. Similarly, the discord sown by Sinensis calling people imbeciles, and Bluelightz list spamming, meant that the town had little chance. Towns don't necessarily have to be super organized, but they at least have to be cohesive. -always be willing to revise your opinions!: I'm not sure how much prplhz thought I was town, but because he didn't rly reasses me, I went unnoticed. Similarly, TheToast's strong adherance to his initial reads of prplhz, Bluelightz, and Sentinel meant that he had little leeway when the mislynches started piling up. TheToast's strong posting meant that a lot of the town followed him in those beliefs, and the lack of reassessment hurt the town. D1 reads are very very hard to get right, so trying to come up with the FULL scum team and push this for most of N1 is not the best. on the other hand: -be willing to go all out if you think/know you're right: TheToast could have gone after me harder. Sentinel could have crafted a better defense without claiming. Nisani could have defended himself way better. Part of the reason that I stayed alive was that I was willing to put up long ass posts defending myself. Vanilla townies need to be willing to put up the work so that the game can go on. -Tainted? Framer? I did not really get the point of the tainted and the framer in this set up. While having a RBer around, with no blues, is very interesting because the Mafia might RB into greens and assume there are blues, the Framer gives no notification, so there is less hindrence to Mafia. On the other hand, the presence of these factors may make town think that there is a DT, and they might become dependent on this notion. I think this was a bad thing for town, as they speculated a decent amount on blues that were never going to manifest. I had a fun time, and put a lot of work into this game, so I'm glad it paid off. thx to sinani and BF for setting up the Mafia for the win. BIG thanks to GMarshal and redFF for hosting, and for answering my numerous, nooby questions. TheToast, you nearly had me; with a more cohesive town you'll do just fine. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5244 Posts
On February 17 2012 12:43 GMarshal wrote: No... Closest thing to that was 3 goons vs 2 vets :-P Your Suprisingly Normal III that prplhz mentioned has this; that post is what led me to consider the presence of vets, after the vig was revealed. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
This game isn't just about having a correct list of scum on day1, it's about winning. If you want to win you can't just be good at finding scum, you also need to be good at getting them lynched, and TheToast had a hard time getting anybody lynched primarily because he was annoying, spammy, and chaotic. I think TheToast was second best townie in this game (after me, yea) but how he was incessantly on my back was also part of the reason EchelonTee was so successful in buddying with me. There simply wasn't an alternative supporter in this town because TheToast spent the entire game yelling at me and nobody else seemed to care too much about the game. I'm not blaming TheToast for anything, I should have been able to win this game from the position I was able to put myself in, but going around saying "lol, i knew scum team, the other guys just didn't listen" isn't going to make anybody any better at this game and that would be sad. Ultimately, I enjoyed playing with TheToast because he was the only townie besides me who I think really cared about this game. Even though he got on my nerves so fucking bad I wanted to replace out more than a few times. I wrote my opinion on EchelonTee right after the BaronFel lynch, he looked town but mostly because everybody else made that very easy. Some other townies didn't really care about this game, some were just dicking around, some intentionally spent a big portion of the game trying to get on my bad side. In hindsight, I see that EchelonTee was the last scum and hopefully I learned from it and will not be making a similar mistake again in a future game. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5244 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On February 19 2012 12:03 EchelonTee wrote: Your Suprisingly Normal III that prplhz mentioned has this; that post is what led me to consider the presence of vets, after the vig was revealed. Completely forgot that that setup had a vigi -__- Oh well, shame on me :-P Anyway, with regards to the tainted/framer, they were a very deliberate inclusion in the game. The framer was there to make you guys fear a dt, and the tainted were there to decive the town into thinking it was there as well, allowing you guys to fakeclaim it if you so desired. BaronFel's final defense should have been a DT claim, at worst it would have forced a claim, at best, Baron would have survived. I'm trying to break the town's dependency on DTs, while forcing the mafia to play as if they existed (since it should encourage you not to lurk), all in all, it could have hurt town had they assumed the existence of a dt (a pitfall which they avoided, good job) and given the mafia team the tools to make some nice plays, while still forcing activity in the thread and deliberate blue hunting on your teams part. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
I don't think the town environment was all too bad, there was some inactivity and there were people with null/town lists, there were people who didn't care about the game, there were people who spent the entire game fighting against me instead of trying to debate with me, there was how I just took charge of everything after night1 which made people feel less encouraged to do original work, but overall it was alright. Look at the other minis, this game was decent in activity and analysis so it absolutely wasn't bad. I think the mafia shots were absolutely alright although you should have picked up on the "final defense" thing (so should I). I really wanted to speak up for [UoN]Sentinel on day3 (as this post shows) but I couldn't make myself do it when he had straight up admitted to being "dicking around". Meh, don't ever do that again. Dick around or admit to it. There's nothing people who are taking this game seriously hates more than people not taking it seriously at all. Anyway, your shots were good in my opinion since you were planning on buddying with me and there could have been a medic prevent them. Shooting lurkers and buddying with active townies and shooting active townies while hiding among lurkers are both decent I think. Maybe you should have shot Bluelightz and [UoN]Sentinel first because first gamers can be really hard to read for town. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5244 Posts
I did notice Sentinel's "final defense", but for some reason I didn't think to shoot him immediately. I guess I thought that TheToast was going to push him for me. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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