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I don't understand why Batman would stop using his hits if we give him the Joker? He still needs to kill Hugo in that case. Batman also can't cut a deal with "town" because he can't claim his role. We just have to assume Batman will do what we want because we gave him a freebie?
Batman's best long term play is to use DT checks and only hit when he finds Joker/Hugo. He wants to prevent either faction from winning the game until he fulfills his condition, right? If he keeps shooting townies, he's pushing the mafia toward a faster win and making it more likely that the game will end before he finds either target.
If I'm Batman I'm DTing at night whoever I think might be Joker first and scumhunting in hopes of lynching Hugo. If Joker dies, then I start DTing looking for Hugo. If I shoot randomly (unblockable hit) I'm helping scum win faster which is bad for me.
If it's demonstrated through the first night or 2 that Batman is definitely using his KP anyway then Joker should take a shot on our #1 lynch target Day2/3 then claim if it's legal. That 1:1 trade is pretty good, but I just think we're being too eager with this. Vig is a good role, let's think before we get rid of it on the first day.
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Tyrran made my point while I was still typing. I got ninja'd there.
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On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway?
I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk:
A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease)
B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning).
So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO.
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Do you want Batman shooting at people he thinks are blue, or people he thinks are scum?
That is why we should give up the Joker.
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On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO.
That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT
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First, Kenpachi claiming town on day 1 is bad play, no matter his actual role.
If he indeed does this every game, he deserves to be policy lynched until he stops doing so. Looking at the last pages, his claim has already provoked alot of spam and gives scum room to hide.
On February 06 2012 15:14 Kenpachi wrote:
I dont remember why i started doing it LOL
i guess tradition, (pretty bad tradition). But its insignificant to the course of the game if you ask me
And if you think it is a bad tradition how about you stop trolling and play to win?
Asking for a mass claim is equally silly Bill Murray.
For someone who announces "sub-par" performance during the first 16-24h Cyber_Cheese is sure posting alot. That and his suggestion to sacrifice Joker, a town vig! is highly suspicious.
I do agree with DoctorHelvetica and Tyrran on the Batman situation; we should certainly not sacrifice a vig. This only benefits scum.
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On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT
I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day.
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On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker.
Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on.
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On February 06 2012 19:50 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day. Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker. Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on.
Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though.
My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them.
Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer.
Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game.
Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing.
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On February 06 2012 20:03 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 19:50 Tobberoth wrote:On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day. Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker. Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on. Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them. Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer. Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game. Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing.
If the early DT checks die, it was all for naught. He might as well shoot into the dark.
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Germany16350 Posts
On February 06 2012 19:25 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Do you want Batman shooting at people he thinks are blue, or people he thinks are scum?
That is why we should give up the Joker.
well but shooting scummy people is way harder than shooting townies. I guess batman will try and go for scum first, probably just shoot into scummy players or DT into them. If he hits his target, fine, if he did not there's one less scummy target and that one might still end up being joker.
After he killed his mafia target he can still just blindly rampage town or DT because it should be way easier to figure out town and one of them is bound to be the joker.
Obviously he only has to make sure that no side wins before he wins and he has to make sure not to get lynched. He's pretty much immortal so time is running in his favor as long as he's not lynched because both town and mafia are helping him shooting each other.
Oh and obviously BM's massclaim (or anyone else saying we should do that) is bullshit. If we were to do that there'd be a shitload of lies and fakeclaims. VT's claiming blue to get shot instead of blues, blues trying not to get shot, reds trying to look townie and so on. I don't know about you guys but I'm pretty sure mafia is having an easier time figuring shit out than everyone else will have on their OWN. Not to mention that there's not even a need to figure this out unless you're batman catwoman or a medic. There's just no point in there. I'm totally fine with "knowing" someone is probably a townie, I don't need to know his role.
That's how I see it: 0 benefits, maybe a little wifom to screw with mafia but huge drawbacks.
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Why no pms 
You guys are boring.
I propose this plan. Tomorrow I will announce the dumbest/useless/bad thing said in the thread, and we lynch that person as a punishment.
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On February 06 2012 20:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 20:03 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:50 Tobberoth wrote:On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day. Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker. Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on. Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them. Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer. Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game. Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing. If the early DT checks die, it was all for naught. He might as well shoot into the dark.
This makes absolutely no sense
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Btw, the people voting that rgr guy are being dumb.
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Aaaaand, obviously you can't do the standard "vig-shot and claim just before daybreak" to confirm yourself, because you're going to die to catwoman/batman the next night even if you claim (truthfully or not) some other vigilante, just because it's not like they have anything better to do than killing you.
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On February 06 2012 20:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 20:03 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:50 Tobberoth wrote:On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day. Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker. Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on. Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them. Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer. Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game. Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing. If the early DT checks die, it was all for naught. He might as well shoot into the dark.
And if he misses his target, it was all for naugth too. Except one side is now closer to win and thus it reduces a bit his chances to find his target in time. The number of player alive are gonna drop anyway. Random shots do not make sense.
Plus you underestimate the possibility of taking advantage of the information you have. You know that X is not one of your target ? Push for someone else being lynched. X is not mafia and you know it. Easier to make a case defending him. DT hecks are much stronger than Random shots.
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On February 06 2012 20:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 20:03 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:50 Tobberoth wrote:On February 06 2012 19:36 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:26 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:25 Tunkeg wrote:On February 06 2012 19:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 06 2012 19:04 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On February 06 2012 19:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
This would be a good example of that. Because Batman wins off lynches, it doesn't benefit for him to work actively against us. Point out the guy you think is Hugo, don't hand over the vig to Batman. Trading the Joker for a 100% Joker kill that night/day is a good trade. Why would we out Joker to help a third party that has to help us anyway when we can keep our vig potentially for a couple days at least? That's not a good plan. He doesn't gain powers from killing Joker, it's just part of his win condition. If we don't hand the joker over, Batman has to guess who he is, and has a reason to shoot townies. And why would he not shoot townies looking for Hugo? On "honor"? He can't claim so we can't hold him to it and he doesn't care if we win or not. He's going to either DT or shoot every night based on his preferences regardless of whether or not he hits Joker early or not. It will take him a bit out of the game sooner, but isn't this irrelevant considering no one is supposedly allowed to roleclaim anyway? I disagree. If Batman gets Joker early on he have no reason to just go hit hit hit. Him just hitting blindly after getting one of his target may just whittle down one of the allignement to a point where Batman may risk: A: Getting daylynch (chance increase when number of remaining players decrease) B: One side winning (causing Batman to lose if he have lynched Hugo, but not Joker and town winning, or if he have lynched Joker, but not Hugo and scum winning). So Batmans should hit hit hit until he gets one of the targets (or one side is getting low) and then he MUST DT, that is optimal for Batman IMO. That's why he shouldn't hit hit hit at all but use his DT power and only hit when he has a match. That is the safest way to play the role for the exact reasons you claim. There's no reason to give up the Joker Day 1 when we don't even know what Batmans going to do and I can tell you already if he's a smart player he's going to use the DT I agree Batman should DT mid to late game. But for the first 2-3 nights he should just hit. I belive that trading the Joker for either getting Batman to be on the townside or getting Hugo killed (if that happends very soon after Joker death) is a good deal for town. As I have said before, if Batman gets Joker he can pretty much play a very pro-town standard game, as he then basicly wins with town, and he only loses by scum winning or him getting lynched. He will then push pro-town lynches all the way until he gets Hugo, as he he can't be lynched by night, and playing pro-town (even revealing some of his DT checks as XX is town, or YY is scum basicly softclaiming DT) so he won't get lynched by town during the day. Shouldn't it be the other way around? In the first days, there's little to go on, so all his hits will be blind and he'll just lower the amount of players for nothing since he doesn't know what he will hit. Sounds to me like a better idea to use the safe period of the early game to DT and get a feel for what players he needs to hit/not hit later. If Batman hits players randomly in the first few days, there's a risk he'll kill of scums which is bad for him since it gives the town a much better chance to kill off the scum before Batman gets the joker. Later in the game, discussions have probably led to clues so he can more easily hit townies directly when looking for the joker. Seems to me that by logic, batman should be most dangerous for townies the later we get in the game without joker being killed, while it should be decently safe early on. Well, both your way, Dr H's way and my way might all be viable strategies for Batman, it depends on many things though. My way: Early hits is pretty safe for Batman as both factions are far from elimination. Therefor my logic is that he might as well just hit and try his luck instead of DT the ones he suspects and then later hit them. Dr H's way: DT all the way until he finds his targets. Secure that Batman don't help any faction, and is the safer option as he won't whittle away any of the factions. It might take longer for Batman to secure his objectives compared to my way, but it is definatly safer. Your way: DT early and hit late makes Batmans hit more accurate as he have less people to chose from. But this is the most risky strat of it all for Batman IMO. Cause if Batman misshit lategame he might just end the game. Well, now I have rambled on long enough about the Joker claim thing. I think all of you know where I stand and why. Unless someone want me to clarify more on my stance I will just leave this for now, so other topics may be discussed or others might put in their two cents on the Joker claim thing. If the early DT checks die, it was all for naught. He might as well shoot into the dark.
Not at all. The odds of hitting Hugo or Joker is the same whether he DTs or shoots, the different is that DTing won't kill players off (something Batman doesn't want to do), while DTing forces an extra day to get the kill. He is basically saying "If I'm lucky, I'll kill Joker or Hugo in 5 days of random hits... Or I'll just DT for 5 days and if I had that luck, I get them for sure on day 6 without killing any non-interesting targets."
It's important for batman that the two teams stay alive as long as possible, he really has no inclination to hit anyone who isn't either Hugo nor Joker.
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Germany16350 Posts
On February 06 2012 21:26 Palmar wrote:Why no pms You guys are boring. I propose this plan. Tomorrow I will announce the dumbest/useless/bad thing said in the thread, and we lynch that person as a punishment.
are you planning on playing seriously this time or trollish again? Last time doing that got you killed, the game before that you killed a townie (with a little help from v7) and both are nice excuses for you this time after all. Mafia palmar could easily say "hey looky guyses: I did this the last two games as well, me pro-troll = me town!".
I'd like you to help town without playing your side games to spicen things up.
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All this setup piffle is useless and counterproductive. Both sides can post filler about the setup. Let power roles make their own judgement calls, let the night actions unfold as they do, and spend your time doing something that will actually lead to scum kills, like prodding people or reading filters. In the spirit of that:
Kurumi, you soft-defend Schworz twice in a single post, also indicate that vigi's should avoid him and the rest of your post is basic setup waffle. I don't remember you being this wishy-washy in TL50 either, with statements like 'I find it funny that...' and 'I just ponder', you sure come off that way now. What are you playing at?
Tobberoth, you say you're considering a vote on Kenpachi, yet you want to wait until 'discussion comes up later in the day'. This comes off as quite passive and almost like you're waiting for a bandwagon to pickup speed before you seal the deal. Why not just vote him now if you find him suspicious, as you claim, then move it later as more information presents itself?
Ico, policy lynches are retarded... just no.
Jaybrundage, I know you haven't even posted yet, but we've never been the same team. Don't see why this game would be any different. Have my vote!
##Vote: jaybrundage
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On February 06 2012 21:42 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 21:26 Palmar wrote:Why no pms You guys are boring. I propose this plan. Tomorrow I will announce the dumbest/useless/bad thing said in the thread, and we lynch that person as a punishment. are you planning on playing seriously this time or trollish again? Last time doing that got you killed, the game before that you killed a townie (with a little help from v7) and both are nice excuses for you this time after all. Mafia palmar could easily say "hey looky guyses: I did this the last two games as well, me pro-troll = me town!". I'd like you to help town without playing your side games to spicen things up.
I had nothing to do with killing Soap, stop lying.
V7 being dumb is not my fault.
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EPT
