EPTTL Mafia XLIV
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wherebugsgo
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Are PMs allowed? (time for me to reread the OP) | ||
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I think the whole "single out kurumi" is pretty funny. He's "annoying"=lynch lol. I'm sure there'll be clues to help us identify scum pretty quickly as people post. | ||
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On August 19 2011 08:58 Palmar wrote: Hands off my kurumi bitches. Hii palmar I'm disappointed I wasn't able to play more in the Swedish Mafia with you, I read the thread after I died and it seemed to play out interestingly. Also how is he YOUR kurumi? Tryna make us jealous | ||
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Why should we believe that those guidelines are being posted for the benefit of the new players? The new players can just read all of that stuff in the mafia resources stickies. | ||
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On August 19 2011 23:39 Sevryn wrote: Right now DB is looking the scummiest imo and after what palmar did in Swedish house mafia I am inclined to trust him. That said if there is a good case against anyone else i would be willing to give DropBear another lookskie ## vote DropBear LOL Palmar strikes again Luckily we have another 36ish hours to keep hunting these scum. | ||
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On August 20 2011 06:52 BrownBear wrote: I asked for something of substance and this is what I got? Oh, you.  Ok, something you've pulled out of my reasoning that really just wasn't there. You're saying I want to lynch someone inactive. Not necessarily true. Implied, maybe, but NOT what I said. Again, you really need to stop putting words in people's mouths. What I said there, and what anyone who took 5 seconds to think rationally got out of that sentence before you started spewing shit all over it, is that regardless of what I think about DropBear's alignment (and for the record, I think he's more green than not. Scummy, possibly, but not confirmed scum), I want to see people post more. We're on only 17 pages halfway through the first day, which is kind of sad. I want more content. DropBear's providing it. I'm for lynching any of the semi-actives - that is, the people who are just contributing one liners and sheeping along to do the bare minimum to fly under the radar. Inactives = people who haven't noticed the game's started yet, people in different time zones who are sleeping, or people who don't care about the game. No reason wasting a vote on them - modkills will get them soon enough. The real area where mafia are probably lurking are the semi-actives - the guys who have posted a few times to be able to say "hey, I was here", but haven't contributed anything of substance or worth to the discussion. That doesn't include DropBear right now. At the very least, he's provoking discussion both about his silly fake-mayor plan, and about whether or not he's red. He's defending himself and providing some alternate ideas. (Although, DropBear, "I will do so if it becomes necessary"? Really? That's not doing you any favors, bro). Right now, my list of semi-actives include: wherebugsgo, hiro protagonist, Foolishness, and JeeJee (when you read his posts, they don't contribute nearly as much as they do ask questions that go unanswered). I'm open to adding more to that list tho. So let's start talking about those guys! JeeJee is the most suspicious to me right now: He's posted the most, but I see not all that much in his posts... it looks to me as though he's trying to post while not adding anything of value to town discussion. Just a gut feeling, but I still feel a lot better about lynching him than I do DropBear. Anyway, long story short: You read things out of my post that didn't exist, those things are the entire basis of your case against me, your case against me sucks, gg, try harder. ##Vote: JeeJee LOL. Only problem with your "let's lynch semi-actives" logic is that semi-active players could potentially be important townies, too. It's the first day, it's to be expected. If you're loud and not mafia, you can easily become a target. As for dropbear's proposal...it smells like something either scum would cook up, and/or something pertaining to someone who is really desperate to cover his/her ass. I don't wanna vote DB either, simply because we don't have enough information. However, I do think that Sevyrn deserves some attention for his first post. | ||
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## vote Sevyrn defend yourself, scum. | ||
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On August 20 2011 08:41 supersoft wrote: hmm, sevryns behavior had something innocent in my eyes i don't know... Somehow I tend to buy that story... I mean the whole thing started like that: Basic situation: He knew Palmar from former games; and we all know that palmar played some good games for town recently - Palmar accuses DB; I jump on that wagon but declare it as a pressurevote. Varp shows up, says pressurevotes only work if you don't say it's a pressurevote (i 75% agree with that statement) Now the poor sevryn sees all this: he also wants to contribute something by pressurevoting, so he fakes his reason and follows varps advice and gets caught immediately... However that doesn't mean he's town. dafuq? are you defending him cause you're scum too? | ||
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On August 20 2011 10:15 Varpulis wrote: k guys i see a problem here: Everybody defending anybody is instantly scum, because the guy you're accusing is obviously scum, and anybody who doesn't agree with you is scum. This is a bad assumption. Townies can be wrong, townies can disagree. The key is to see how the guy is defending him. Is he being wishy washy? is his post overly safe? Are there obvious logical fallacies? with that said, supersoft's summary post accomplishes nothing and is pretty damn wishy washy. "I see innocence... however that doesn't mean he's town" does not compute. filter his posts and you'll see what I mean. He is being wishy washy AND overly safe while not necessarily actually making any sense. However, Sevryn's the concern right now (not palmar). His first post itself was one of the most suspicious things we've seen yet in this thread. I'd also suggest you guys head over to the voting thread right now and check out people's votes, as that's pretty interesting too. Sevryn votes DB and unvotes as soon as people start sniffing scum, while supersoft initially "pressurevoted" DB while defending himself from bandwagon accusations: On August 19 2011 18:14 supersoft wrote: i just filtered him, and he just posted one policypost and no thoughts about other people. Why not pressuring him a bit. Can't be bad. ##Vote DropBear and before anyone jumps on me like: "wtf he bandwagoned blablabla" - like Curu did in AA; I am NOT one of the players, that bandwagons on anyone random with a bad explanation only to show up the next day like "hey guise sorry what happened, oh you lynched scum - yea well I had stuff to do." I will be there at the end of the day and put my vote on scum. And of course changed his vote to xtfftc almost immediately after people switched off DB. Finally, organization is good. Right now we have a good lead on Sevryn, why don't we start with that? | ||
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On August 20 2011 11:37 Foolishness wrote: He voted without bringing anything new to the table. That's his only post he's made this game that's been longer than 2 lines. His post says "lol he's scum vote", that wall of text you see there is gibberish. And the other games I've played with Mig he's been town, and I definitely don't ever remember him ever making a post with this kind of attitude. Foolish can you tell us precisely why you don't suspect Sevryn? You said that you need to hear more from him, when his first post itself was easily more scummy than Mig's, let alone those that followed. So why does one post of Mig's stick out to you, but one post of Sevryn's isn't enough? | ||
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So, I've read the arguments about xtfftc and brownbear (thanks palmar) but I'm sticking to my vote of Sev. Why? He hasn't posted a single thing in the last 20 hours. He defended himself (fairly shittily, IMO) with a couple desperation posts of "well I was just pressure voting, I didn't actually think he was scum" and then disappeared. Obviously that's not good town logic; we vote to lynch mafia, not vote to get information or to pressure people when we apparently already know they're not mafia. Why doesn't Sev have anything to add to the discussion? Why isn't he actively making a case for why he shouldn't be lynched and who we actually should lynch? He hasn't made a new vote, he hasn't participated in discussion, and he hasn't adequately defended himself. I still think he is mafia. | ||
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I suppose he could vote without saying anything, but that spells death sentence to me. | ||
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On August 21 2011 03:24 xtfftc wrote: By the way, I have to apologise to supersoft - I just noticed that I didn't post in the voting thread, which was probably the reason he put me on his list (although it's still kind of sloppy). So I'm going to vote after Sevryn defends himself. Palmar, DropBear and BrownBear are a story that has to develop further. wtf? why are you afraid of voting now? Is it because others have labeled you as scum already? I didn't think you seemed that scummy, but with this new post and a couple of others of yours on this page...I'm having second thoughts about you. | ||
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On August 21 2011 03:39 QuickSilver7 wrote: I like the case against BB, it basically contains all my reasons for FOSing him. Also this sevryn lynch is retarded, I'd love if people would read some rea analysis done on actually scummy people. Right now it seems like Sevryn is being lynched for two stupid posts he made in the beginning of the game. These two posts do not make him scum and when I filtered his posts I found that I liked much of the rest of his history. Also I feel like a lot of people are voting sevryn just to kill someone. I'll say it now, a no lynch is better than lynching a townie. If you're not actually sure sevryn is scum then don't vote him (which, from reading the reasons that have been given for voting him, I don't think everyone who's on the wagon is convinced). People should seriously read over the cases against xtfftc and BB again. Both of those are way scummier than sevryn is. (sorry this post isn't up to my usual standards hiro, I just wanna put the breaks on this runaway bus before I leave today  )I initially voted Sevryn because his first posts and his defense came off as scummy. He voted for DB without a moment's hesitation and was apparently willing to change his vote on a whim if "evidence" came up. Did that actually happen? Well, it's been exactly 24 hours since Sevryn last posted. During that time, a lot of additional pressure has been put on him. That doesn't seem scummy to you, that he's gone off to lurk for the most active part of the day? I expect him to come back, make excuses for why he was gone, and then desperately try to cover his ass while voting for xtffc or BB. Probably whoever has more votes at the time he reenters. Of course, now that I've made this post maybe it'll deter him from doing that when he actually does show his scum face. | ||
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As a townie you can always add to the discussion. What matters here is not necessarily just his posts, but also his voting pattern (or lack thereof) and his activity. Clearly he hasn't been active for at least the past 24 hours (last post at 3:41 KST yesterday) and he hasn't voted anyone either. This makes sense in light of a mafia agenda, not a town one. | ||
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On August 21 2011 03:07 BrownBear wrote: This is a complete turnaround from your earlier opinion on Sevryn: after all, you're the one who started the bandwagon against him. Care to explain? I'm getting very sick of all your one-liner aggressive posts - you aren't contributing nearly as much as you think you are. WHOA WTF Can't let you get away with that! False accusations! Palmar was still tunneling hardcore when Sev started taking shit in the face for his posts. Go back and reread! Palmar has only passively accepted lynching Sev, he never started the bandwagon against him. In fact, no one person started any bandwagon against Sevryn. | ||
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On August 21 2011 03:49 xtfftc wrote: I expected supersoft to be superhappy about this but noone else. Sevryn is basically dead, one way or another. No mafia will be dumb enough to protect him anymore and the townies are aware that going after anyone else now would look suspicious. But in case Sevryn gets modkilled, we need to use the opportunity for two town kills. Then who do you propose we vote for? | ||
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I want to hear from Barundar...he voted, but no post? | ||
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Got it. What stands out to you about BB and not Sev? What do you think of Sev's disappearance? | ||
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On August 21 2011 06:06 Sevryn wrote: Ah the age old argument of the guy who everyone is calling scum is defending himself "SUCH A SCUMMY MOVE" Why don't you actually contribute something, then? Your posts and your activity makes sense from a mafia standpoint; for more than 24 hours you did absolutely nothing. Why didn't you contribute? If you had already defended yourself, why didn't you read posts and provide your opinion? Why were you lurking? Trust me, there's time; if you can provide some reasonable defense for yourself and actually suggest things that will help town without appearing scummy (like you have appeared for the entirety of the day) then clearly it's in our best interest to lynch someone else. So far you haven't done a very good job of that, which paints you as red to me. My vote stays on you as long as I believe you're mafia. | ||
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So, you're going to ignore my request (and a couple others' after mine) to actually put forth a decent argument, are you? I suppose that means you're dead... | ||
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I'm open to switching to Rayzor. If Sevryn honestly made a mistake we can give him a day or two and see if his behavior changes. | ||
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So far already voted for Rayzor: (6) Sevryn Jackal Supersoft Foolishness Trotske Navillus Willing to vote: Hiro Me (wherebugsgo) Curu That makes 9. Couple more and I'll switch my vote, deadline is looming | ||
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I'm up for that, hiro. ##unvote ##vote Rayzorflash | ||
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In fact, wouldn't they prefer a no-lynch? In that case it's equally likely for them to switch, or stay on Sev! | ||
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Why the hell are we all bandwagoning? | ||
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That was a fast night! I think foolishness is innocent though, nothing really has tipped me off about him. I think he's telling the truth. | ||
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Someone else asked if you were claiming chaplain earlier (sorry, on phone ATM so it's hard for me to go back while posting) | ||
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I agree on BB and chaoser. I'll be back in the morning with analysis, right now I must sleep | ||
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A quick question to the experienced guys : Are you focusing on the guys you know so much because they have the potential to be more dangerous? Because Nard, xtfftc and Vain are just scummy as fuck. | ||
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I would suggest also that you guys all remember Trotske and Vain. Some of the names from day 1 are being forgotten because of this hardcore tunneling going on. VE I think you're tunnelling too hard on Palmar and are missing other valuable leads we have right now. I say this based off what I read by filtering your posts. Last things I wish to add/reiterate: I feel like Foolish is town, and he's usually a valuable source of information. If we get confirmation that he was lying about last night then we need to reconsider our stance about him being town. So far, other than the hit claim, foolish has done nothing to stand out, and so I'm inclined to say that he is town. Palmar is most likely town as well in my opinion. Yeah, he's been tunnelling BB but I think it's rather warranted. BB's vote yesterday was rather scummy, and the post he made about semiactives had the feel of a nontown agenda. He tried throwing some suspicion on "semiactives" and listed 3-4 names, of which were JeeJee, hiro, myself, and Foolish. | ||
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Yesterday I didn't really look at Brownbear's posts that much, but I found his random accusation of JeeJee very strange. The problem for me was that there wasn't a very clear target other than Sevryn, and that was primarily due to Sevryn's messing up. The pressure vote shit he pulled was really stupid on his part. A couple hours before the vote finalized, when Sevryn finally showed up, I realized he was town since he decided to post again, but it was too late to switch or reanalyze. Now, in light of JeeJee's hit we have to reconsider things a little. JeeJee was relatively inactive day 1, so mafia must've thought he was a blue. QS7 was probably targeted because he's a vet (correct me if I'm wrong) and he had some good analysis that I suggest you guys look at as well. This is primarily why I suggest we lynch BB or xtfftc. I need some more time to think, though, and I'll be back in a few hours with some analysis and a vote of my own | ||
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For similar reasons, I think we should keep Trotske in mind. I'll focus on these 4 and our job as town today is to narrow our suspicions down to two lynch targets. | ||
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On August 23 2011 00:40 chaoser wrote: + Show Spoiler [Quote from Palmar] + On August 22 2011 18:12 Palmar wrote: I think I've made my opinions pretty damn clear, but I've made some fundamental mistakes this game that stop town from considering my opinions as valid. I think I have laid down the most detailed analysis of someone in the thread that isn't completely based on meta, and I stand by my conclusions in that one. I'm fine with lynching Mig actually, there are multiple mafia in this game, and unlike sevryn I'd actually give him a 50% chance of flipping red. I'm much more convinced BB is scum though. I don't know Chaoser's meta so the argument made against him may therefore look weaker to me than it should. Hopefully others who know him will correctly push his lynch if they're right. Just to rehash, this remains my opinion: Forgive me if I'm just misreading what you wrote but are you saying BB is suspicious cause he wants to focus on inactives/lurkers because of the statement: when Navillus' main point day 1 was basically let's focus on killing as many inactives as possible, this will put the fear in them and make them more active and Foolishness' main point for wanting a mig lynch over a sevryn lynch is also about how sevryn will be more active? Also your point mentions one anecdotal example of "that's how I thought as mafia", which I hardly think is strong evidence of anything. Can I ask why you went after BB for one reason while you were silent about the others that also fell into that reason? Why not go after narvillus or foolishness? Harder targets? I'm sorry, but your last 3 sentences are suspicious to me. The whole "why aren't you going after this guy for the same reason you're going after that guy" is often used by scum to divert attention from one of their own (or themselves) to another player... | ||
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On August 23 2011 02:58 Vain wrote: If you wanna direct vigi's at least come up with more targets. I wouldn't be surprised if there actually was a scum medic. Can you write out what information we get then? In my opinion that only creates more wifom So you're saying if you get shot someone will be there to save you anyway? | ||
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On August 23 2011 03:30 xtfftc wrote: He is saying that if we agree on one single target for a vigilante, mafia would know who to protect. Nah, let him answer. He's been dodging. | ||
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On August 23 2011 04:11 xtfftc wrote: If I was mafia and thought that this was a situation in which a fellow member of the mafia might slip, I'd send him a PM. I am verifying that it would be wise to consider more than one target when talking about vigilantes, especially now that QuickSilver is dead. Where in that post did I suggest you were mafia? | ||
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On August 23 2011 04:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum-slip bolded! Scum-slip bolded! Self-admitted scum everyone! God damn it you posted this before my analysis  I WANTED TO BE FIRST | ||
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##vote Vain My analysis of some others whose posts I've read: Jackal: I strongly feel Jackal is town, but there was one small mistake earlier: RayzorFlash just made a nice ninja vote on Hiro. I think that was just an honest slip, as Rayzor made a post earlier but Jackal probably didn't notice it. Verdict: 95% sure Jackal is town Pyo is lurking. He has added very little, if anything to discussion, but has somehow stayed out of the limelight. I'm uncertain on him, we need to wait a couple days and poke him a little to force some activity. Verdict: ??? xtfftc has made some "contributions", but his reactions have been really strange. Supersoft made a list once of people who haven't voted, and xtfftc jumped to the conclusion that it was a suspicion list. In the same post, he said he would respond to Quicksilver's accusations: I will answer to QuickSilver in a separate post because this one is long enough anyway. but never actually made such a post, semi-copping out with this trash: If I don't answer QuickSilver, people will claim that I have nothing to say in my defense. If I don't analyse Sevyrn, I will be accused of not contributing. I will try to do both as there is enough time before the deadline but this is exactly what Mafia want us to do - discuss a number of targets instead of a single one. Apologizes meekly to supersoft later, why? Then there's this gem: On August 21 2011 03:49 xtfftc wrote: I expected supersoft to be superhappy about this but noone else. Sevryn is basically dead, one way or another. No mafia will be dumb enough to protect him anymore and the townies are aware that going after anyone else now would look suspicious. But in case Sevryn gets modkilled, we need to use the opportunity for two town kills. wat I prefer vain right now, but xtfftc is worth a hard look. I say this primarily because he, too, has been copping out and dodging. He never did what he said he would (respond to Quicksilver) and he hasn't contributed anything. He also has responded rather strangely at times. He also made the statement about the 2 town lynch while copping out of actually voting for someone. Verdict: I think he's mafia. (when I called him out on why he's not voting, that's what he said. But, he voted when people said that Sevryn wouldn't be modkilled if we're going to lynch him anyway) Mig I feel is scum. The reason is primarily because he contradicted himself on the meta arguments, and his response to the accusations has been very strange. Other players have pointed out the scumminess in Mig, I don't think I have to repeat their statements. Filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=11719 I feel like I'm missing some things...but I'll be back with more soon. | ||
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On August 23 2011 04:33 xtfftc wrote: You didn't, I was responding to the whole page. The hostility in some of the posts is clearly visible, I believe. It's strange that you chose to post a clarification when I specifically directed a question at Vain. Yes, my one-liner was provocative. That was intentional. However, Vain was the receiver of my provocation. Why on earth would you step in? + Show Spoiler + | ||
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On August 23 2011 04:53 Vain wrote: He asked me if i meant what xtffc said. To me it was pretty clear but i guess not to everyone. So to be clear: Yes, if we agree on a single target and direct vigilante's to them you have a big chance mafia just protects them. but i think we wasted too much posts on that subject already. Who are the 3 scummiest people to you, then? | ||
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On August 23 2011 04:57 VisceraEyes wrote: hiro - I say we take a hard look at VAIN and lynch XTC. I'll even put my vote on it if you'll agree. Vain is the very picture of inactive and is more worth a random bullet some random night than a lynch. We should use our lynch for people we're relatively certain is scum...and your post reads more like you're more certain that XT is scum. So why not lynch scum instead of an inactive that 'makes your scumdar go crazy'...he hasn't posted enough for us to ACTUALLY divine his alignment, let's give him that opportunity...or make him eat a bullet. was this directed at me? | ||
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On August 23 2011 05:05 VisceraEyes wrote: I think it was directed at hiro, as specified in the post.  I'm still confused, because hiro already voted for xt. He also never said things about scumdar, vain, etc. etc. whereas I did. I voted for Vain. It just sounded like you misread the names because my analysis post fits with what you described. | ||
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## unvote ##vote xtfftc | ||
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On August 23 2011 05:27 hiro protagonist wrote: THANK YOU Jackal. VE, Im gonna say this one more time: STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH. If you want me to clarification on something I sad, just say something like "hey hiro, is that a soft defend of Palmer?". Or, how about asking me " yo, mr. Protagonist, what are your thoughts on palmar? do you think he is scum?". that way, I can use my own words, which *surprise!* can be analyzed? your really grinding my gears... when you say something like this: Its obvious you haven't read the thread because *surprise!* Im already voting for him... -____________________________________________________- No dude, just look at the two posts above you. Honest mistake, he misread the names of who posted what. | ||
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On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: I did not say that the list of people Supersoft made was a list of people who were suspicious - I merely pointed out that he was wrong. I voted for Palmer, Supersoft quoted my post and voted for me immediately after - and then he put me on the list. It was sloppy, no matter how you look at it. Then I saw I missed doing it on the voting thread, so I apologised for my mistake. Why - because I was wrong and even made a sneer remark on it. Okay. Fair enough. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: wat indeed? What is it that you are claiming? Is this all about semantics or is there anything more to it? #1: Why would it have been suspicious to go after anyone else? If you had evidence, you could've made the case for someone else! In fact, multiple people did (and weren't suspected of being scum) in the ultimate hours before Sevryn's lynch. It seems like you've been afraid or hesitant for quite a bit. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: but never actually made such a post, semi-copping out with this trash: I never got to responding to it, mostly because I felt there was not much to talk about. Most of his accusations were based on me arguing the point that lynching lurkers as top priority is not a great strategy for town. The rest was an analysis on my vote for Palmer, which was taken out of context. Still, there you go: People vote for more than one reason. Not every vote means "this person is mafia". Sometimes you vote to pressure, sometime you vote to encourage. Sure, but those reasons are generally bad. Look what happened to Sevryn when he voted to "pressurevote." Vote to kill mafia. That's our job. Our job is not to extract information. Our job is to kill mafia. If you're not voting to kill mafia, then you're fucking up. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: Mentioning DB wasn't a vague reference, I had already commented on it in a previous post. Mentioning BB was to encourage Palmar to keep on with his lead because I thought he was onto something. Why? You never mentioned WHY you thought he was onto something. In this sense, I agreed with Quicksilver. Also, it makes very little sense how voting Palmar would encourage him to keep on with his "lead" on DB or BB. It just seems likely to cause chaos, as when you randomly vote for someone, it forces that person to defend themselves. Voting to encourage someone is by far one of the strangest things you've said so far. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: This was a discussion about policies which should have been over a long time ago. I said what I had to say - that some town players will lurk and lynching players for lurking is a bad idea. At the time of my post there were people calling out for lynching all lurkers as a top priority... I don't agree with this and never will. Bad town players will lurk. While you're right in that lurking says little about alignment, it is certainly true that you in particular have had a reluctance toward posting. You haven't contributed very much to the town cause, and that raises red flags. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: I never said that "if 1 person doesn't post, we all lose" - I said that "One person is not a problem unless the others follow suit." Okay. On August 23 2011 05:29 xtfftc wrote: I did mean them and I still mean them - prioritising on lurkers is bad for the game. According to QuickSilver I was wrong for saying "there is nothing more to add", yet I am also wrong for "adding nothing new to the table". I made my point about the policy, then I made it again. And then I got asked about it again. Yes, I had nothing else to add and I still don't. Yes, but when people suggest that we could lynch lurkers, you can add to the discussion by instead suggesting SPECIFIC PEOPLE to lynch, and reasons/evidence why. The only time you EVER did that was with Palmar, and that post was terrible because you voted for Palmar to "encourage" him to follow up on his lead. Like I said earlier, you don't vote to "encourage" someone, pressurevote them, whatever. You vote someone to kill them, because you think they're mafia. | ||
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After the #1 (my "wat" comment) You said we needed to use the opportunity for two kills. Funny thing is, you really didn't have any suggestions for WHO to kill, just "hey guys maybe we should kill two people." That makes me question your motives for wanting two people to die. If you wanted to lynch mafia, why wouldn't you make a suggestion of who you suspected? | ||
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Sorry for all the posting, but I just noticed this, gotta follow up: 1.) Okay, why? Why is nard suspicious to you? 2.) Why is xtfftc suspicious to you? 3.) Why is nard MORE suspicious to you than xtfftc? 4.) If you don't have a third person, what have you thought about Mig? Rayzor? 5.) Why are you lurking so hard? | ||
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On August 23 2011 06:40 Foolishness wrote: Wait a minute, you said that me using meta in my arguments was pointless and (for the most part) rampant speculation. But now you're voting for Hiro based on meta? WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS WORLD We need to be careful. I feel like there's enough disorganization that townies are making too many mistakes. We can't have red herrings fuck us in the ass from just having everyone be suspicious. Paranoia will make us unfocused, and that lets mafia win. For now, I propose that we focus on 3 or fewer lynch targets. At the moment, I think xtfftc has the strongest case. After, I would say we can make pretty good cases for both Mig and nard. Vain we can leave alone for now, we can't really build a case on him when he hasn't said anything to begin with. Once we hear some opinions from the players who currently aren't here I think we can get talking some more. | ||
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On August 23 2011 08:37 Palmar wrote: xtfftc is not scum Why do you say this? Anything new on BB or is it your standard fare? I going to look over more of the posts as soon as I get home. | ||
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I need to reread AGAIN. Thanks Mig. If you can, please answer Jackal. | ||
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Once we get this I think I'll be ready to put together another post summing my ideas together. | ||
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On August 23 2011 10:28 Mig wrote: I know some people are going to cry omgus omgus vote here but I wanted to go back and look through all the posts of the people jumping on my bandwagon first. And dropbear looks extremely scummy to me. Here are the points against him 1) His play at the start of the game. Dropbear starts the game off with fluff posts concerning no lynches and his mayor thing. While palmar is attacking him and generating actual discussion that can be used to find scum, db is deflecting the discussion onto unrelated subjects. And as soon as soon as palmar calls him out on this db tries to turn it around and tries to actually take credit for getting discussion started. When really he has done 0 scum hunting and all his posts are bland ways to look like you are contributing. 2) Contradictions. Look at some of these quotes by db. Ok so he wants to lynch hiro for not giving reasons for his sevryn vote, he also thinks there is no case against me. Then this is his post where he votes me on day2. Gives absolutely no reasons for voting me even though he had said earlier there was no case against me huh? What changed your mind dropbear? He also states he is fine with hiro now for trying to deflect the sevryn lynch when I had done the exact same thing. 3) Activity. Don't look at the amount of posts DB has overall but look at when he is active. He was extremely active right at the start of day 1 posting where he has a bunch of fluff and tried to claim town cred for it. However what about after that? He pretty much disappears then shows up right before the end of day 1 makes 2 short posts attacking hiro and chaoser and disappears. So he introduced 2 new candidates right at the end of the day BUT didn't stick around to actually push for their lynches. He knew sevryn was going to flip green and didn't want to get any backlash from it so instead he posted a couple short cases against people not in danger of being lynched and then vanished to let the town argue amongst themselves. And what about day2? We are 24 hours in and db has one post. This is classic mafia activity. Active right at the start of the game where he is trying to buy town cred for himself but once we get deeper in and real analysis starts he is completely MIA. So seriously look at DB's posts and ask yourself what his motivations are. Has he put any effort into scum hunting? Does he care if town makes the correct decisions? No. He comes in posts a ton at the start to buy credit but afterwards he basically sits out of the sevryn lynch, doesn't push for the people he actually thinks are scummy to be lynched at all and then on day2 he votes for me because it is a chance to jump on a bandwagon to get a strong town player lynched even though he had said earlier there was no case against me. #Vote Dropbear On August 23 2011 10:52 Mig wrote: I think db/chaoser are both hella scummy. hiro - has contributed nothing but seems much more active than when I played with him in AA and he was scum. His posts also feel more bold to me, he was a lot more reserved and skittish before. So leaning town. nard - scummy lurker, has a couple of posts where he just writes one line about a bunch of different subjects and contributes nothing. He only has like 4 posts though and he is very new but I would lean scum towards him. xtfftc - initial posts I thought were extremely scummy. His first vote of palmar also was extremely suspect and wishy washy. He has a ton of posts where he doesn't seems to want to take a stand and several times he dodges questions people ask him. I would lynch him next if no one agreed with db/chaoser. Thanks, Mig. I think this sheds some light on what's been happening today. Firstly, town needs to seriously reevaluate ALL suspects. Right now we have a lot of votes on xtfftc. I feel like the case is still strong, but we need to go back and reaffirm our votes. It's also vitally important that we have a viable second choice. I'm going to look into DB's posts, and whoever else's name has popped up over the past few hours (and that's quite a few people.) I think what has happened over the past 24-48 hours is that mafia has stood by while the town has misled itself. I think some information has been mafia-influenced. We have a large number of relatively inactive/lurking players. Since there are so many lurking players and 6 mafia, we have no idea how many mafia are hiding. Palmar thinks xtfftc is townie. If more of you think he is town as well, please state your cases. Right now I don't really know why Palmar should be taken seriously on this matter. Personally I won't until he actually refutes the evidence against xtfftc and provides an answer to the question I posed to him a little while ago. For a second choice, I'm willing to go with nard. We need some more information, IMO, on DB/chaoser before we can lynch them. It might be in our best interest to just let them live till tomorrow. If anyone disagrees, please come forth. I'll be back shortly with my thoughts on some of the players I didn't mention last time, and my reevaluations of things I think I got wrong before. | ||
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On August 23 2011 11:46 chaoser wrote: Hypocrite! ____________________________________________________________________________ Alright, some things to think about: I've looked over the posts of some players we've somewhat forgotten. Here's one that really stood out to me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=92078 Trotske BEHOLD, his first post: On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote: I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. Da eff? First he acknowledges that Sevryn seemed scummy, and completely glosses over it. Then, he goes for foolishness, who has made ONE post and it's an obvious troll. Why would he begin to plan for the lynch of another player completely based on a troll post? There is no analysis here by Trotske, just a complete guess. Either he's being thick, and not understanding it's a troll, or he's mafia and trying to set up a future lynch. Not to mention, the way he came off about Sevryn would have allowed him to slip away without responsibility because he didn't add any new analysis about Sevryn either. If he knew Sevryn was town he knew about the possibility that the vote could change, since this was very early in the day. EXHIBIT B: On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote: Ok guys I'd like to say I think Foolishness is scum (again) here is my original post + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote: I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. QuickSilver7 pointed out how this was scummy of me to say I Think foolishness is scum and then vote for sevryn but the fact is this is a majority lynch system the fact that sevryn looks scummy and has the most votes on him is enough to vote for him unless more people agreed with me but he is the only one who seemed to read my post. The next page after I made my post calling Foolishness inactive he posts quite a few times while not addressing my post at all. Most of his posts are taking a very on the fence position. accusing quite a few people of being scum but yet he's not so sure sevryn is. This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn. I think foolishness is a great target for the next lynch. Next post by Trotske is kinda more of the same. However, now we can use information we know now to be true to perhaps help us analyze this post. First, he defends himself in the first sentence from the sole accusation of him by Quicksilver. Quicksilver's accusation of Trotske relied on the same reasoning that I just used up there; it's strange to want to lynch someone, then plan someone else's lynch on the condition that the person you're planning to lynch doesn't come up to defend themselves. You vote in order to lynch mafia, you don't vote to bandwagon. Trotske bandwagoned Sevryn and then planned to lynch foolish afterward. Then, the killer: On August 21 2011 05:44 Trotske wrote: This feels like he is trying to distance himself from Sevryn. Well, we know now that Sevryn is not scum. In light of Trotske's motives, this sentence certainly is not something a townie would say. Not to mention, busing a fellow mafia on day 1 is just weird. Foolishness also later went on to say (before sev was lynched) that he didn't think sevryn was mafia. So, how could Foolish be trying to distance himself from Sevryn? Why would mafia bus their own on day 1? Trotske's "analysis" was wrong on several levels, primarily because, IMO, there was no analysis to begin with. Trotske was just trying to APPEAR to contribute. Next: On August 21 2011 08:54 Trotske wrote: Two hours left in the day I don't think you are going to get a switch from sevryn to chaoser in that time. Lets stick with the lynch we have been going for the past day we don't want a no-lynch because someone forgot to switch their vote back. This and his remaining 2-3 posts or whatever don't contribute anything whatsoever except his feeling that it'd be better to lynch Sevryn than no one, which everyone had already said numerous times. During this day Trotske has done absolutely nothing. Scum? I think so. What do y'all think? | ||
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On August 23 2011 11:55 chaos13 wrote: Works for me. BrownBear, I don't think is mafia. From what I can see of his posts he is playing pro-town, making solid analysis. I'll be moving my vote from Foolishness since it isn't doing any good there today. Still deciding who to put it on, I've got a couple candidates in mind. Someone I really don't like the looks of right now is wherebugsgo Well damn, he sure thinks Palmar is town. Why does he post this shortly after then? You seemed way more convinced of his townieness earlier before you'd read his posts, but you provide other reasons for why he is town.. This just doesn't make sense to me. If wherebugsgo is scum, Palmar probably is as well. But when I filter his posts I really don't get a strong read on him either way. Can I get some external input on him please? You don't like the looks of me because I don't think Palmar is mafia? That's a real strong argument you've got there. Why don't you actually analyze my posts? If you actually did that then you'd find a strong read on me. | ||
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On August 23 2011 12:27 chaos13 wrote: How the fuck...? Did you even read my post? No, I think you're *possible* (please note that, as I'm not sure on you and if you look closely you'll be able to see that I asked others for their opinion on you) mafia because you seemed very sure of him being town, and then apparently went back and re-read his posts, at which point you found more reason to believe he was town but somehow seemed less sure of your town read on him. If you were so sure he was town, why did you have to go back and re-read? Yep, I did. I reread Palmar's posts because VE was pushing for his lynch and I felt at the time that he was town. Also, I said I was analyzing the posts of people that we had suspicions about, and that I did: On August 23 2011 00:58 wherebugsgo wrote: I'll add palmar to my list of analyses. Time to read his posts again Filter me again and you can go back to find this post, and I'd also suggest that you look at the thread in context where I post these. Also I was making sure I wasn't missing anything that VE might have caught. Palmar has posted a fair amount. I've always been fairly certain that Palmar was town but I can't help having doubts when people keep voting on him. I'm open to ideas from other people. However, if you're asking about my OWN opinion about Palmar, it's that he is town. In my attempt to facilitate discussion I can see how it might seem that I was somewhat unsure after rereading his posts. | ||
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Right now we have a lot of votes on xtfftc but we have at least one (I think more?) person saying he believes xt is town. We need to get opinions and additional analysis on him. I made my own analysis of him earlier (filter my posts) and am willing to lynch him if we cannot find evidence that suggests he is a townie. On Mig I am currently unsure, this whole Foolish/chaoser/Mig business is getting a little confusing. I know you, Curu, said that one of Mig/chaoser is probably mafia but I think we need to substantiate that assumption before relying on it. IMO it's still possible that they're both town. I mean, we have several possibilities here, in my opinion: -one of foolish/chaoser is mafia and they have thrown a vote on Mig, the mafia to act like they're contributing and the town because they've been convinced -they're both mafia and Mig is town -Mig is mafia and foolish/chaoser are both town -they're all town I have a feeling all 3 may be town, in which case you all are wasting time. The first scenario is least likely IMO but I feel that the other 3 are all currently possible. I guess it's also remotely possible that there is a busing attempt (or a fake bus) going on but I really doubt that. I suggest you guys also consider my post on Trotske that I recently posted. Several players in the game right now look like scum. We have half the day left to make our decision. Let's lynch a mafia tonight. | ||
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Also, each role has custom fluff, to deter any silly ideas like name claiming, the mafia may at any point request a safe-claim from me and I will provide it, safe claims can be for any role, from Liquidian to Inquisitor But...this raises a question for me because the wording is vague. Once GM or sandroba answers I'll provide my opinion on this whole issue. Can the mafia player choose which role to receive a safe claim for, or does the mod just randomly choose a role to provide? | ||
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On August 24 2011 00:41 DropBear wrote: I was suss as hell on supersoft, he kept defending Mig, Foolishness was voting Mig, I know Foolishness was a good guy, people were starting to unvote Mig, Mig was starting to push me and not many people were disputing it. I was getting pressure for my dodgy claim and I fold under pressure lol. I'm done discussing this, I fucked things up enough already. Sorry everyone. Let's get back to business people. Can you explain what made you suspicious of me? Right now I'm a bit confused. We don't have all that much time to come up with a proper lynch target, and from the looks of it we have doubts on almost all of them right now. It's possible, IMO, that we're being misled and mafia are just flying under the radar. | ||
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On August 24 2011 01:09 DropBear wrote: Cos I'm an idiot. Can we drop it please. Forget it happened. Stop the derailment. Mafia will be laughin their arse off right now. Get back to scumhunting. RayzorFlash you have disappeared. ##Vote RayzorFlash Stop the derailment... Derails and votes Rayzorflash... Dude, either you're retarded or you're scum. Wtf are you doing? Also, in case a mod didn't see my question: Can the mafia player choose which role to receive a safe claim for, or does the mod just randomly choose a role to provide? | ||
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The thing is, I don't know if it's the best idea to lynch DB right now. I agree with Jackal's reasoning, but I think the outcome of the upcoming night phase will give us more information about DB and this whole affair than anything else. The reason I don't want to come out with all my thoughts on this issue is that everyone can read what I'm saying. If you're town, think this through carefully and please PLEASE listen to me right now: So far, as I've said before, mafia has been successful in creating chaos among us. We want ORDER and ORGANIZATION. DB's clowning has led us into a more confused situation. To me, it is suspicious. No medic in his right mind would come out and claim this early, when under NO PRESSURE to claim. DB is claiming he was "under pressure" when in reality this is an appeal to emotion, an appeal to sympathize for his "mistakes" when he was never under any serious pressure at all. He then pulls a vote on RayzorFlash without ANY reason whatsoever. Again, either DB is full out stupid, or he straight up doesn't give a shit about finding scum. The first means that, if we lynch him and he's town/blue, we'll all kick ourselves, and hard at that. The second suggests he's scum. Right now what do we gain from lynching DB? Less confusion? Do we have enough information on DB to pin him as scum? I don't think so. So, while I agree with Jackal to an extent, I say that we don't lynch DB today. The night action will give us more information. Keep in mind, again, that I haven't spelled out everything for you all here. You can form your own conclusions, and if you disagree with me, fine; just be clear. The town can only benefit from clear, well-formed opinions about players, not this muddy "well this guy's lurking let me vote him" crap. | ||
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If he doesn't contribute the rest of the day that's another good clue. Another problem for us now is that we already have a couple cases, and switching votes has proven to be difficult. | ||
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On August 24 2011 04:12 hiro protagonist wrote: Ok, this town is full of WIFOM, and it has a name: Dropbear. This exact situation happened in wherewolfs. day2, someone claims DT, we keep him alive. Town then spends 2 days trying to decide if the claimer is telling the truth or not. we kill him 2 days later: he was a DT. Knowing this, I wish I would have lynched him right when he claimed. We would have lost a DT, but established an important meta: claims that cannot be confirmed must never happen! claims that cannot be confirmed must never happen I say there is a 50/50 chance that DB is scum. considering all thats happened today, thats good enough to lynch off of. ##Vote: DropBear DB, If you town, I am sorry, but you left us in a terrible situation. xtfftc defense has been fairly reasonable. he has not back away from what he said, and he seems to general feel that he has done nothing wrong. good on ya xtfftc, lets scum hunt. Also, apologies to GreyMist for calling him out when I didn't notice he was asking for a replacement. I agree with only one thing in this post: that xtfftc's defense has been reasonable and that he is town. I've taken the initiative to look back on hiro's post, particularly since I've become unsure about Mig and I'm now convinced xtfftc is probably town. Why would you EVER use such a bad example in support of DB's lynch? You once had a guy who claimed DT and then you suspected him and kept him around, then when you guys messed up and lynched him because you thought he was scummy he flipped DT... so therefore DB is scum. WTF?? I think you are scum, hiro. Let me continue: On August 20 2011 17:00 hiro protagonist wrote: -__- why does no one remember that I was palmars scum buddy and we won together with some come from behind play, when are 3rd scum got himself killed day one. Palmar and I worked like a well oiled machine. A vote on Palmer on day 1 would be stupid. IMO, saying your got a read on Palmar day 1 is like saying Im sure I solved this crossword puzzle correct even though Im blindfolded. I just been rockclimbing the last 12 hours and I am beat. I will be a active, contributing member of town come morning. Read the last sentence. Now, keep it in mind. Next: On August 20 2011 17:05 hiro protagonist wrote: Curu, Im talking about SNMMII Also, Im gonna say it again: QuickSilver7's posts are fucking awesome. I dont care if he thinks Im scummy. Actually, I think he did care if Quicksilver thought he was scummy...that's a real strange thing to say. Why wouldn't hiro have said "I really like Quicksilver's posts. That's good analysis" and left it at that? Why did he have to add the "I don't care if he thinks I'm scummy?" Because Quicksilver mentioned that he thought hiro's posts were slightly useless and slightly scummy? Instead of replying to Quicksilver with a town contribution, he contributed those two lines. Again, recall the sentence I told you all to keep in mind. + Show Spoiler + I just been rockclimbing the last 12 hours and I am beat. I will be a active, contributing member of town come morning. Up comes this: On August 21 2011 03:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Voting Sevryn for now, as a no lynch is bad. how much time is there before the day ends and this: On August 21 2011 04:05 hiro protagonist wrote: @nard I had real life things to do for most of day 1. My bad. I quickly put my vote on sevryn cuz I was not sure when the deadline was, and I dont want a mislynch. Uhhh... What? Hiro was constantly reluctant to contribute posts. Why? IMO it's because when there are posts of substance there are things to analyze. The more hiro posts, the more chance there is for him to slip. Of course, he slipped enough even with the posts he made. His next 6-7 posts made during day 1 all are devoid of substance and simply involve the bandwagon switch between Sevryn and Rayzor. On August 21 2011 08:53 hiro protagonist wrote: Sorry Gman. lets vote RayzorFlash everyone! First he votes Sevryn and doesn't provide any reasoning of his own. Then later, he votes Rayzor in the same exact fashion. My opinion? Rayzor is probably town and hiro was fine with lynching either person. On August 21 2011 09:44 hiro protagonist wrote: unless we get a role call from 15 or so people, the switch to Rflash is not gonna happen unfortunately. so for those of us around who think Sevryn is actual a townie we have 2 options: 1. make a no-lynch happen. This would save Sevryn who might be town, but yield no information around a lynch. It would also keep him around as a suspect, and we would still be at square one. 2. We lynch Sevryn. We at least will see him flip, and he might be scum. I dont think thats likely thou. Scumhunting can begin fresh again, as we can focus on new suspects. I dont like it, but lynch looks like our best option Why not? Hiro again never justified this statement. Did hiro say this because, as mafia, he knew that Sevryn was innocent? I think so. On August 21 2011 10:04 hiro protagonist wrote: Ok people, heres the deal: I want to switch to razor. others do to, but if you make the switch you must promise to stay around till the dead line in order to guarantee a lynch. if by 15 min. till the deadline and we dont have enough votes we all switch back to Sev. cool? Say you switch, and there is not enough to make a lynch happen, but you dont switch back to Sev, the consequences will be dire ##Vote: RazorFlash Making himself look less suspicious for the fact that he was active during the most important part of the day. Hiro here is trying a little too hard to blend in. On August 22 2011 02:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Anyone thinking that Palmar deserves to be a lynch target, ask yourself this: how has anything Palmar done hurt town? Palmar, rage if you want, but you know that any case for you right now is dumb. Vis, Yes that was my idea. As the day went on, It looked more and more like Sev was town. Mafia, however could sit on him as a vote claiming that they would prefer a lynch to a no lynch. Razor seemed scummier. My actions speak for themselves. also, I dont think Razor is a good lynch today, there are more important suspects to look at. Within two sentences, we see a turnaround. Hiro first thought that Rayzor seemed scummier than Sevryn, and that "his actions spoke for themselves." He follows up with ANOTHER unsubstantiated statement, that Rayzor is suddenly not a good lynch anymore. Wtf? Why the sudden change in heart? On August 22 2011 03:34 hiro protagonist wrote: 1. Where did I say that I dont find him scummy? I said there are better targets today. 2. the fact that you haven't even looked at all of Palmars post before accusing him doesn't give your accusation much weight. Visceraeyes caught onto what I mentioned above. When confronted with this, hiro responds with, well there are other targets. Who? Again, vague "contribution" but in order to actually contribute something to the town cause you have to be specific. You have to have a case; saying there exist better targets without actually identifying them is something mafia would do in order to pretend to contribute. On August 22 2011 04:56 hiro protagonist wrote: Vis, Im gonna stop responding to questions that can be answered by reading my previous posts. You keep trying to put words in my mouth. why? What exactly do his previous posts answer? Look at all of hiro's posts up to this one, and you see nothing clearly identifying him as a townie, you see nothing regarding his reasoning for his votes, and you see a bunch of spam/useless one liner posts that are most likely used to blend in, and to pretend to be active. On August 23 2011 04:12 hiro protagonist wrote: @rayzor: Im sorry, what question do you want me to answer? you seem to think I need to defend my actions. I dont. I am so down for lynching xtfftc today. ##Vote: xtfftc I believe that hiro here gets defensive in his manner, but doesn't actually say anything, because mafia tend to want to give away as little information as possible. Hiro doesn't want to substantiate anything that he has said or done for fear that he will slip and make mistakes. Of course, this in itself is a slip, because, by failing to contribute to the town and by failing to provide reasons for votes, he appears scummy. For the third time, hiro casts a vote on a person without providing sufficient reasoning. He votes xtfftc (and is called out by xt later) with no reasoning at all. On August 23 2011 04:50 hiro protagonist wrote: well, there's this: yeah, If I was scum, I wouldn't want someone around that randomly accusing people ether. I mean, why would you want anyone to do something that puts pressure on scum, right? After xt calls out hiro, hiro responds with the quoted piece above. Hiro claims that random accusations put pressure on scum. Well, let's think about this for a second. Do random accusations actually put pressure on scum? Do they help find scum? Or do random accusations actually help scum? IMO, random accusations help scum blend in. Why? Out of 30, 24 of us are town. If you RANDOMLY pick one person, such as what Palmar did, you have an 80% chance of choosing a townie. EIGHTY PERCENT. Thus, for the most part, random accusations will BENEFIT scum because they throw the pressure onto TOWN PLAYERS. This is, IMO, why Palmar's actions were controversial (and I think Palmar needs to change his behavior, cause his spam is annoying the shit out of me right now) and also why he's taken flak. Again, that's the only thing hiro used to justify his vote for xt. And, honestly, it wasn't very well thought out. Hiro here was withholding information, or like I suspect, trying too hard to blend in by pretending to contribute. On August 23 2011 05:27 hiro protagonist wrote: THANK YOU Jackal. VE, Im gonna say this one more time: STOP. PUTTING. WORDS. IN. MY. MOUTH. If you want me to clarification on something I sad, just say something like "hey hiro, is that a soft defend of Palmer?". Or, how about asking me " yo, mr. Protagonist, what are your thoughts on palmar? do you think he is scum?". that way, I can use my own words, which *surprise!* can be analyzed? your really grinding my gears... Under the slightest pressure, hiro becomes aggravated here. He actually did appear to defend Palmar: On August 22 2011 02:58 hiro protagonist wrote: Anyone thinking that Palmar deserves to be a lynch target, ask yourself this: how has anything Palmar done hurt town? Palmar, rage if you want, but you know that any case for you right now is dumb. And, in addition, his "vote reason" for xt seemed like a soft-defend as well. NOW WE GET INTO THE REAL INTERESTING PART: On August 23 2011 06:26 hiro protagonist wrote: btw, I will put up an analysis on xtfftc when I feel like it. WAIT WHAT? Where the eff is this analysis, hiro? You don't feel like it? I noticed this earlier in the day today. I thought maybe hiro was just busy and he'd come back and contribute. I held out hope. Instead, now, looking at your most recent posts, I feel like you're scum, hiro. On August 23 2011 07:14 hiro protagonist wrote: Palmar, what is your opinion of xtfftc? looking forward to what BrownBear has to say. also, the following people need to chime in and give opinions: Trotske Lucidity Munk-E GreYMisT nard Pyo Kurumi Again, NO CONTRIBUTION. Just a list of people who need to contribute. Hypocrite much? You want other people to contribute, but you can contribute whenever you feel like it? Hiro is scum. AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST: On August 24 2011 05:08 hiro protagonist wrote: Wow, Ok, no one likes that idea. does everyone think Im stupid? ##Unvote: DropBear Im just gonna sheep whoever is the highest vote is by the end of the day. LOOOOOOOL "Wow, oops, I fucked up. Time to go hide now." I don't think you're stupid. + Show Spoiler + Well, maybe a little. Cause you're really not hiding so well. So, when people pressure you because you've made a terrible argument, your response is to BANDWAGON AND SHEEP THE GUY WITH THE MOST VOTES. AHAHAHAHA. You're mafia. ##unvote xtfftc ##vote hiro protagonist | ||
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On August 24 2011 05:52 hiro protagonist wrote: How cant anyone see how bad town atmosphere has been. Mafia are laughing there Asses of in the QT right now. I want Dropbear dead cuz I Think he is scum. His claim ruined any headway that we made on day 2. Do you think thats an accident? cuz I dont. So ask yourself this: how has anything I have done hurt town atmosphere? How has any of my post been anything other than scum hunting? I have Hid nothing from anyone, and your gonna lynch me for speaking my mind? when I un-voted DB, It was because everyone else thought I was wrong. Fair enough. But is being wrong mean Im Mafia? Also, I still think im right, but am willing to listen to town when they says Im wrong. Does that make me Mafia? This will be my only defense in this mater for now. Im gonna use the last 5 hours of my life to find scum, and try and make a good town atmosphere. You can't use one thing to call someone scum. Your pitfall is that you think you can just accuse someone based on one event. Yeah, DB fucked up the town atmosphere pretty bad by adding a lot of confusion, but most of us agree that lynching him for it is not going to get us anywhere. The reason is because, while causing chaos is a mafia tactic, we cannot lynch DB solely based on that. In order to identify someone as mafia, you need a pattern of behavior that is consistent with being mafia. I think it's possible that DB is mafia, but his behavior is not as certain as yours. Anyway, how have you hurt town atmosphere? Well, you constantly ask for people's opinions without providing any of your own. You cop out of EVERYTHING. As soon as you receive some pressure, you disappear or add cryptically, "my actions are my proof." Well, that's real convenient, seeing as you've done next to nothing! You claim you'll come along with analysis or you will contribute when you are able to, yet you continually post things that show signs of pretending to contribute. Your posts are empty, devoid of reasoning. When you took flak for your DB vote which was based on like...one line and smelled very strongly like you were trying to start a bandwagon, you immediately backed off and then outright said you would just sheep whoever comes along next. You basically admitted to not having anything useful to contribute because you planned to simply sheep whoever has the most votes. If you have nothing to contribute, then I strongly believe you are mafia. | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:07 hiro protagonist wrote: I think Mig is a bad lynch. his defense against foolishness is very good. Also, xtfftc is of my intrest as well. no one wants to lynch DB for whatever reason. it might be a good time to lynch a lurker. Or Erandorr, I would be down for lynching this guy. On August 24 2011 07:08 hiro protagonist wrote: no wait! RazorFlash! lets lynch him. he came at me with a OMGUS and has sense vanished You're all over the place. My vote stays on you. On August 24 2011 07:10 Palmar wrote: I would very much want to lynch BrownBear, but I'm not sure I can build the support for that case today. Of the other candidates there are some for points and some against. Hiro Protagonist has either very much stepped up his scum play, or I'm right and he's town, I don't want to lynch him today. xtffcasdio is much more scummy than hiro. But there is a certain impulsiveness in his posts. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but he's not gone below the "fishy" category for me yet. Which leaves Mig. The entire argument against Mig, is that he has done very, very little fingerpointing that matters this game. Mig is one to usually tear up the thread as town and find scum left and right. He says he's fed up with mafia at the moment, but I mean, it's huge wifom if he's actually telling the truth in that regard. There are other daming things in Mig's play. He has stuck down a total of 3 fos's in this game. One on Sevryn, where he called him lolscum, only to back it off later and try to switch the town to lynch chaoser. I don't know if Mig ever thought he could sway town with this switch, but it sure didn't look like he was pushing it. Lastly he wrote an analysis on DropBear, who has... well... played questionably throughout the game. I don't really mind this case, what I mind is the fact that Mig was wrong again, and seemed to be going for a target that was easy to hunt down. As I said much earlier in the thread, I have a fuckton of respect for Mig as a player, and given that respect, I don't think he can have done the things he has done unless he is either completely and utterly fed up with the game, or just not town-aligned. I find the latter more likely. ##Vote Mig I don't know Mig's meta. If Mig is a good player, I can understand why I would initially feel suspicious and upon hearing his defense begin to have doubts about my original conviction. I believe you and foolishness about Mig, but it's hard to actually vote him when his defense has been pretty good. The problem I have with Mig is that there are things we can use to justify a lynch of him, and there are plenty of things we can use to justify keeping him alive as well. We have about 4 hours; I'm sticking with hiro because I'm more confident that he is scum than any of the other suspects right now. His responses to my posts have been outright outlandish. I don't know what you mean by saying that hiro has stepped up his quality of posting if he is scum, because honestly I don't see any posts of quality by him yet. If you can, please point out what you mean, palmar. If you can't point out specifics I'm just going to assume that you've built that opinion of hiro based on your own gut instinct. IMO we can't really use "feelings," as they are great sometimes, but rather we need to focus on actual evidence. I know you have a feeling about BB but it's only a feeling. Pushing your feelings is not going to help us find scum; we need to find objective evidence to support our claims. | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:20 hiro protagonist wrote: Ok, Palmar has convinced me. also, its not like I have much choice in the matter. ##Vote Mig I would still rather lynch Razorflash, but I can see how that most likely wont happen. What keeps striking me funny about you is that you consistently piggy back other players. Instead of providing your own analysis and insight, you piggyback other players to stay off the radar. When you are asked for reasoning behind your votes and your suspicions, you provide little, if any information, at all. Each post you have made has made you look more scummy to me. | ||
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On August 24 2011 07:27 Palmar wrote: if you actually have a hammer, feel free to punch hiro in the face if it's your best read. I'd suggest Vain and Nard as other options. Maybe even chaos13, who has done literally nothing to help town this game. I find it really contradictory that he keeps ranting about town atmosphere being bad, yet has not taken any visible action to improve it. And you don't find hiro saying the same thing to be a tell? On August 24 2011 05:52 hiro protagonist wrote: How cant anyone see how bad town atmosphere has been. Mafia are laughing there Asses of in the QT right now. I want Dropbear dead cuz I Think he is scum. His claim ruined any headway that we made on day 2. Do you think thats an accident? cuz I dont. So ask yourself this: how has anything I have done hurt town atmosphere? How has any of my post been anything other than scum hunting? I have Hid nothing from anyone, and your gonna lynch me for speaking my mind? when I un-voted DB, It was because everyone else thought I was wrong. Fair enough. But is being wrong mean Im Mafia? Also, I still think im right, but am willing to listen to town when they says Im wrong. Does that make me Mafia? This will be my only defense in this mater for now. Im gonna use the last 5 hours of my life to find scum, and try and make a good town atmosphere. I find that contradictory about both of them. Hiro has also claimed that he'll make analysis (of xtfftc for example) but failed to do so. You don't find that weird? While we're on that subject, why didn't you post any analysis of xt, hiro? | ||
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On August 24 2011 08:46 Palmar wrote: Mig, do you wanna lynch chaos13 with us? Come up with the case for chaos13 and stop spamming. I read his posts earlier and I had doubts; due to his inactivity I haven't really thought much of it. I'll go reread now. Mig, personally I think you're town. I think you'd be of use to us if you come up with some thoughts about who we should lynch, as we've obviously decided we're not going to be lynching DB tonight. We are a little over 2 hours to the deadline and we need inputs from as many people as we can get so we can form well-reasoned votes on the most likely scum. | ||
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On August 24 2011 08:52 Jackal58 wrote: Actually fuck it. I was saving this for the end of the night phase but Chaos has not called me scummy this game. The only other times he has done this is because he was on the scum team. I know it sounds lame but he's so damn consistent at it it's funny. I have been watching to see if he chose one of the three main targets over the others but his votes are off in the toolies. Ya I'll lynch Chaos. But I do know he is at work. This is such terrible logic lol He called me scummy -_- (and asked DB his opinion of me lol...which DB never answered AFAIK) Also, I agree with Kurumi. Anyone notice that hiro has been "down to lynch" someone very easily all the time in this game? He first did this yesterday, and he's doing it again today. | ||
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On August 24 2011 08:56 hiro protagonist wrote: bugs, Kurumi, whats wrong? did we find your scum buddy. both of you have done nothing to produce a good town atmosphere. your both not looking so hot right now... LOL I don't like chaos13 either, I just think it's really illogical to suddenly jump on a random bandwagon with no analysis just because Palmar says, "hey guys let's lynch chaos13." He seemed scummy to me earlier, particularly because he was throwing around accusations with no real weight to them, just kinda flying under the radar. He said I was fishy to him, for example, and asked DB for his opinion on me before he left. However, I think you're a better target because you've made no real contributions. No analysis, just bandwagon hopping and random voting. Also, da eff? How have I not contributed to a good town atmosphere? I've been doing my best to put out quality posts with well-reasoned arguments that focus on a few people who seem scummy to me. I've only voted for people I think are scum, and I stand by my votes. | ||
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Apologies if I'm wrong. | ||
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On August 24 2011 09:35 chaoser wrote: I come back to find...people want to throw away hours and hours of discussion. Awesome. Vote for mig cause he's mafia! What are you guys even doing?! You're not even voting for the other choice, the one that YOU GUYS brought up in the first place! Instead you chicken the fuck out on the vote and try to cop out on some bullshit random vote that we didn't even spend that much time discussing! Holy shit dudes! Mig and hiro IMO are the two top contenders. I pushed hard for hiro, you and foolish pushed for Mig. I'm convinced now xt is town. The only problem now is that we're getting run in circles by this chaos13 garbage. I say we all vote on one of Mig/hiro, whichever we prefer. I prefer hiro. | ||
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On August 24 2011 10:43 nard wrote: you're freaking hilarious. has there been a post from me which you didn't quote and reply a "you're 100% scum okthx" without ANY reasoning behind it? i guess i can be lucky that you decided to quote me instead of twisting my words around like you did with my first post. hiro: a self-vote? why in heavens.. this makes no sense from any perspective at all. if you are town, try to defend yourself properly instead of making sure you get lynched. if you're scum... do the same lol. He's using appeal to emotion (I.e wtf I suck at this game) and doing weird things like voting himself, claiming vet then saying he was lying then trying to back it up etc. out of desperation. He's contradicted himself multiple times in the past hour alone. The vote-for-himself thing makes him harder to read because that's exactly what he wants. | ||
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I haven't looked at the vote thread (on my phone now) but we need to lynch this scum hiro today. Only 10 minutes guys! We need a lynch. | ||
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AAAAHHHHHHHHHH | ||
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If you actually said things in a reasonable manner, we'd probably value your opinion. Yesterday I disregarded what you were saying because your manner seemed scummy to me. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:21 supersoft wrote: haha i support this! my townlist: nard xtfftc chaos13 kurumi mig brownbear all fellow townies. DO NOT LYNCH! probably scum: foolish and DB... the others I was sure that they were scum already got lynched =) stop it. That's not even funny anymore. People like you ruined this game. I tried to save townies two times in a row. Also I pushed for lynching scum two times in a row. Sadly you preferred to follow the scumteam. Lol wtf Lucidity's post was very reasonable. You DO look suspicious, especially because of your posts right before the end of the day. Like he said, what made you think hiro was town? He fake claimed, neglected to post his flavor text (until it was too late) and didn't think before he posted. Yeah, townies are often dumb but honestly that was scummy as fuck. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:28 supersoft wrote: You're a joke. If you expect something from palmar, you have to give him the chance to prove himself. Consequently you have to vote for his targets. You were wrong two times now. How can you claim that palmars judgement isn't that great, while your judgement isn't existing. One additional word to your accusations towards me: You didn't see that hiro was green, because you're just not smart enough. This is nothing personal or whatever, but if you don't see that the wagon on hero came out of the nowhere and builded up exceptionally fast, with noone reasoning his decision, I can't help you. Okay. I think this post convinced me lol. Come morning I'm voting you. | ||
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Well I'd be down to vote you too, cause your actions over the past day have definitely eroded my town opinion of you. I think you're scumbuddies with supersoft. Both you and supersoft have attempted to gain towncred by landing on the right side of the voting both days. SS was more obvious about it but you've been spearheading these distraction efforts too. You BOTH are claiming we're all too dumb etc etc to see that hiro/sev were town when in reality hiro played like absolute trash and Sevryn's mistakes made him seem like a pretty good target day 1 too. Yeah, we were ultimately wrong in our assessments, but I stand by the reasoning. You can filter my posts and go back and see my analysis of hiro, for example. Honestly though, you and supersoft jumped several levels all at once in scumminess, ESPECIALLY in that last 2 hours vote switch you guys attempted. | ||
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If you're so much smarter than us why don't you share your brilliant analysis with the town every once in a while? Oh right, cause you're scum and you don't actually vote based on evidence...just preknowledge. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:44 Palmar wrote: I'm scum because I'm right, lol I'm not saying town is stupid, I'm saying it's my own fault for not explaining my arguments in a good enough manner to prevent town from doing stupid shit. Basically, at this point you're either town hiding the fact that you're not objectively reading the thread behind claiming hiro and sevryn are bad, or you're scum trying to do look like you're doing exactly that. I have been leaning town on you for a while, I simply think your reasons were wrong. Being wrong is fine, being okay with being wrong is good town play, but we also need to be objective instead of emotional. Read the entire thing again with the knowledge you have now. You should find things a bit more clear. I'm not giving up, and at some point people will listen. You're not scum because you're right. You're scum because you were right when no one else was. There's a big difference. Care to explain why, if you knew all along hiro was town, you didn't reason me and others out of voting him? Care to explain why you would pick a lurking lynch target in the last 2 hours of the day to focus your attention on, when we already had 3 candidates to lynch, ALL with decent analysis on them? Care to explain why you would seemingly just throw out 20+ hours of information and work just to muck up the last 2 hours with a vote on chaos13 (lol) instead of Mig or hiro? We could've used that time to discuss, instead we lost it all scrambling to try and get a vote on an actual lynch candidate most of us had spent hours analyzing. | ||
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On August 24 2011 19:45 Palmar wrote: @Lucidity, are you going to explain to me how believing the Vet claim was bad judgement, cause I'm waiting? LOL You believed the vet claim, of all things. Hiro's logic was so convoluted I have no idea how anyone could've believed he actually was a vet. He didn't even provide flavotext for it. | ||
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At the moment I'm leaning scum on Palmar but I agree with the last part of Foolishness's post; if Palmar continues to degrade the town atmosphere it'd be beneficial to lynch him. Day 1 and yesterday until the last two hours I tended to read Palmar's posts and take them with a grain of salt, but after that... Also if you're suggesting we look at lurkers, foolish, then we should pick out the scummiest lurker and vote him. | ||
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After day 1 I remember a bunch of us had a scummy read on Vain (I remember Foolish specifically saying something like, remind me to lynch this guy) but he flew under the radar. I also agree with Foolish on the point he made earlier that mafia are likely to be hiding among the lurkers because our bad town play is merely killing us off. Why would the mafia have to pretend to contribute when we're killing ourselves? Now that I've calmed down a bit, I think we should give the whole Palmar/supersoft situation time and see what information we can glean over the course of today and possibly tomorrow. Today I will back a lynch effort of someone who isn't quite as active, but is still very scummy, as I think we can all agree that the most active players right now tend to be very town-aligned or at least difficult to read. To this end we obviously have Vain as a choice. We also have Trotske, though i'm still surprised he's not been modkilled. I also want to add that Mig has disappeared through the night, which as foolish mentioned is something mafia tend to do. | ||
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On August 25 2011 10:26 Foolishness wrote: And iGrok everything you need to know is in my long post up there. Just build off of that. Although strange...I remember at one time thinking Trotske was mafia, but don't recall why. It may be because I posted analysis of Trotske. You can filter my posts and look for that if you'd like; I pointed him out when most other people had forgotten about him. Also, I feel like I must reiterate that I'm no longer convinced that Palmar is town. You yourself, foolish, said that he has a tendency to accuse his fellow scum when he is mafia, and when I looked at his post history when he was mafia I noticed that exact thing. If you think BB is mafia I think it's still possible palmar is too, despite the fact that Palmar was pursuing BB's lynch. To all of us, it flew a bit under the radar because his lynch effort never seemed serious. Later, BB defended Palmar because he claimed that Palmar's tunnelling of himself was beneficial to the town by sparking discussion. In hindsight, how can you say that? I think it was detrimental to the town, as it ended up confusing us and causing mistakes. Sevryn made a big blunder real early and he paid for it quite dearly. | ||
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On August 25 2011 13:04 Mig wrote: Also palmar (green) voted BB. Chaos13 voted foolish. Rayzor voted Hiro. Greymist (green) voted nard. Curu unvoted me and voted xttfc. How many of these people were mafia trying to divert the lynch away from me? And of the 4 people you listed who didn't give their opinion on me. The only person who was on the start of the xtffc bandwagon was hiro who fucking flipped green! Where exactly are the mafia trying to divert the lynch off of me?!?! I mean am I fucking going crazy here or what? Your trap is the most retarded thing I have ever seen and you use it as proof that I am scum? And chaos pops in to add that it guarantees I am scum? I am honestly tilted by this. Look at my play and tell me how I am scummy. Instead of using 5000 random bits of information that have absolutely nothing to do with me to try and get me lynched. I think we need to be careful with this one. His last few posts are very fishy indeed, fishier than the ones he made yesterday. I'm curious now... I still do not have access to a proper computer, but I'll post analysis as soon as I can. ##vote Mig | ||
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On August 25 2011 14:21 Mig wrote: How is that fishy lol? Did you read foolishness "trap" for how he determined that mafia were diverting the lynch from me? Does no one have any common sense whatsoever? You're playing with your emotions too much. Also, this pretty much damns BB: The first 4 people who voted for xtfftc day2 were supersoft/hiro (green)/wherebugsgo/VE. Which one of them is mafia foolish? You KNOW that mafia were trying to swing the lynch away from me instead of defending me apparently. So tell me why is your other target BB the 5th person to vote for me. What about the others who did it before him? You're right in that first sentence, Mig, and I'd be inclined to believe all of those names are green. I had serious doubts about SS yesterday but that was because (and this is my mistake) I was emotionally charged about Palmar and SS acting as if their thoughts were superior (or at least, this is how I felt it came across, making me less likely to listen to either of them. However, we all caught onto xtfftc because of small mistakes he made that made him look scummy. BB didn't add anything new to the table and never seriously supported the lynch. You're trying to divert attention right now. IMO because you know you're probably dead, you're doing your best to be useful to mafia before you're gone. Am I right? I think it's safe to conclude BB is also mafia. | ||
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On August 25 2011 14:41 Mig wrote: You are doing the exact same thing as foolish. Because you think BB is scummy you are randomly linking the 2 of us together to make me appear worse. Foolish tried to argue that mafia are the ones who diverted the lynch from me to xtfft. You just said you think the first 4 people who voted for him were all town! How do you not see the flaws in the plan then???? Who exactly was diverting the lynch that is what I want to know. Actually, I thought you were scummy and I connected BB partially based on you mentioning him. So no, I didn't do what foolish did (although I don't see how that would be a problem to begin with) Also, it's not a random link when you're the one making the suspicious off-hand remark about him. | ||
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Mig is a hard player to analyze. IMO, it's because he's good. A good scum will be hard to analyze. The goal of scum during the day is to achieve their agenda while deceiving the town into believing that they are one of us. Mig is no exception, but I think he has made mistakes in attempting to cover himself. WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. The post only truly makes sense with everything, but if you are short on time, skip to the bottom, my conclusion. To make this easier I've put all my analysis prior to the conclusion into spoilers to save space. On August 21 2011 08:56 Mig wrote: The Vet point for chaoser is accurate but there is a pretty huge difference between being such a dominating force and providing detailed and good scum hunting and his play this game. The main thing to look at is chaoser's motivation. In 39 he ran a gambit where he pressure voted early just to try and get a read on a player. He was actively searching for scum, he was questioning people repeatedly early on. This game he has been completely MIA he asked nav like 2 questions, which he didn't follow up on at all. He is putting 0 effort into helping the town when he very capable. + Show Spoiler + From what I understand of your meta, you've been playing pretty differently for being town too. I highlighted this sentence because, IMO, it draws attention away from your own "town flaws" this game; e.g. lack of effort, asking questions, analysis. Your first post in the game has been identified numerous times by other people as being scummy. If you replace chaoser with your own name, your argument would still hold. My argument here is that, this post makes sense as mafia only for a good player. A good mafia player will want to shift the suspicion off themselves by establishing themselves as a good town player early. This fucks with the town greatly, because it induces a sense of paranoia when a player who seems town begins to show signs of scumminess, but leaves few obvious, objective tells. In 39 chaoser absolutely dominated as town single handedly taking out half the scum team within the first 2 days. In that game he didn't make any fluff posts giving generic advice, he spent all his time actively pressuring people and doing real scum hunting. And now look at his play and his activity this game. It is the polar opposite. I still think sevryn is scummy but his play is at least similar to his town meta, chaoser is playing completely out of character for his town play and is contributing nothing when he is a very strong player. Vote: Chaoser If people don't switch I will go back to sevryn before the deadline. Alone, this line is not fishy. But with the following: On August 21 2011 09:50 Mig wrote: Lynch is definitely better than no lynch. But so no one is suspicious of chaoser besides me/db? Jackal/palmar/supersoft what do you think of him? + Show Spoiler + Why do you need to reiterate that lynch is better than no lynch? We know that. Why repeat it? This is the third post you push after chaoser, but each one is just looking for someone who also shares a suspicion of him. You do nothing to actually further your case, just keep asking if anyone else is willing to back you up. This is a little suspicious, but nothing definitive. It only makes sense in the context of other things you've done. Again, it is my opinion that Mig continues to try to establish himself as a contributing townie. His failure is in that there actually is little contribution, just things on the surface. Mig, as a good player, has seen holes in chaoser's play and is attempting to take advantage of that to paint chaoser as mafia. Caveat: + Show Spoiler + This doesn't rule out the possibility that chaoser could still be mafia, though. The pressure that Mig put on chaoser wasn't serious; no matter chaoser's alignment, it was always unlikely that he would get lynched. Thus, no matter what chaoser's alignment ultimately is, Mig benefits from pushing for his lynch. 1. If chaoser is town, Mig can push his lynch softly and not expect the lynch to actually follow; however, by pretending to contribute, he can build towncred for himself. 2. If chaoser is mafia, Mig can potentially bus him at the right opportunity and gain a LOT of towncred for himself. Palmar did this with hiro, for example, among the last days in one of the mini-mafias that I read over today and yesterday, if I remember correctly. On August 22 2011 17:57 Mig wrote: Super if I am mafia and I was trying to save rayzor why did I even post saying why I was going to keep my vote on sevryn? Why was I putting the effort in to try and get people to switch to chaoser before the end of the day? If I knew sevryn was green and I was mafia I could have just sat back and pretended I wasn't there to avoid suspicion. You say it was obvious sevryn was green but after reading rayzor's post about being willing to take the blame if sevryn flipped green, sevryn seemed a lot more likely to be mafia. I agree if rayzor is actually red I look very bad but I put my vote on who I thought was most likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler + The answer to your question is that you're a better player than that. You know that it would be suspicious for you to sit back and let Sevryn get lynched by bandwagoning him, without any real analysis of your own (because, as mafia, you often have little real analysis to make unless a townie fucks up) So, instead, you chose to target chaoser because you thought you could capitalize on his change in behavior. This makes you less suspicious, as by pushing forward a different lynch target, when Sevryn flipped green you could go back and say, "well I wanted to lynch chaoser." In addition, by presenting a semi-valid argument (that chaoser's meta suggested he's acting as mafia) you can pretend to contribute, and avoid suspicion by taking on the role of an active townie. Of course, it was also effective in throwing suspicion off of yourself for that really scummy first post about Sevryn. It wasn't necessary, but the mark of a careful player, as by the time you began to push for chaoser it was already obvious that Sevryn was probably going to die/be one of the main lynch targets. And, as for Rayzor, we'll get to that later. On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: My activity this game has been a lot lower than most of my games. I am really burned out on mafia right now. I have played too many games recently and I am going to take a break after this game. I have to force myself just to actually read the thread. It is no excuse for my poor play but it is the truth. So if I am lynched because of it my apologies for sucking. But is no one else seeing the extremely poor reasoning behind some of the people jumping on my bandwagon? Jackal - gives no reason whatsoever for voting me dropbear - First you say you are ok with hiro because he tried to lead the lynch off of sevryn. Wtf I was trying to get people to vote chaoser before the rayzor bandwagon even really got started. And you even agreed with me while I was trying to make it happen. You then proceed to vote for me without giving a single reason. Varp - Did you even read my post about meta arguments or did you just intentionally ignore the meaning of it? I am not against meta arguments. I used meta arguments to help get you lynched in the last game we played together. I use meta pretty much every game I play. My entire point was foolishness' meta argument was trash and didn't actually show I was scum at all. Curu - just a pure meta reason Nobody has defended me at all this game. Has my play really been so scummy this game that if I were mafia not a single one of my team members would be willing to try and save me? If am lynched because of my poor play it's my own fault but people should take a look at everything surrounding my bandwagon. Anyway it doesn't appear I have any shot at convincing people to vote chaoser so I will write up a case on who I feel is the next scummiest in the next few minutes. Alright, let's break this one down a bit. On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: My activity this game has been a lot lower than most of my games. I am really burned out on mafia right now. I have played too many games recently and I am going to take a break after this game. I have to force myself just to actually read the thread. It is no excuse for my poor play but it is the truth. So if I am lynched because of it my apologies for sucking. But is no one else seeing the extremely poor reasoning behind some of the people jumping on my bandwagon? + Show Spoiler + In red is the appeal to emotion. Mig isn't tired, he's just fucking with us. Then comes the defense of himself. At the time he posted it, I thought it was a good defense. I really did, and I'm pretty sure it's because the emotional appeal primed me to believe him. But look at how he shifts the attention away from himself immediately before he becomes the majority lynch target: On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: Jackal - gives no reason whatsoever for voting me + Show Spoiler + False, Jackal cited Mig's scummy first post on Sevryn and also his late vote. On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: dropbear - First you say you are ok with hiro because he tried to lead the lynch off of sevryn. Wtf I was trying to get people to vote chaoser before the rayzor bandwagon even really got started. And you even agreed with me while I was trying to make it happen. You then proceed to vote for me without giving a single reason. + Show Spoiler + Mig highlighting a bad townie play I have nothing really to say on the meta stuff, you guys form your own conclusions on that (did Mig contradict himself on the meta arguments? Iunno.) On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: Chaos did you even read my posts from yesterday? Did you see my case against DB? Every person who has voted me foolish/chaoser/you has completely ignored everything I did day2. Tell me how I wasn't helpful yesterday? I actively scum hunted and I provided GOOD analysis. Were my points against DB inaccurate? Was I stretching the truth to try and make him appear scummy? Actually look at my case and ask yourself whether that was a scum or townie driven analysis. + Show Spoiler + Actually, we all ignored DB because DB's actions were so farfetched and attention grabbing that he had to be town. That's why I ignored him, at least. Mafia would lie about a roleclaim, but not in the fashion that DB did. Mafia would roleclaim more like how hiro did, IMO. drumroll.... CONCLUSION FOLLOWS: On August 23 2011 09:19 Mig wrote: One last thing. Why did jackal die last night? Was anyone else getting blue vibes from him? I wasn't. Had he been especially active or provided any strong analysis? No. So why was he shot instead of someone like Curu or you barundar? My conclusion is that you shot him. He was one of the players you were annoyed at for voting you, and then you saw the opportunity to paint chaos as the perpetrator. You are a good player. You can think ahead. Yet, you had a problem with Jackal calling you out for being scum for "no reason whatsoever," whereas you're completely fine with Jackal being convinced that chaos is mafia based on almost nothing as well? That's pretty hypocritical. However, more important is this, and if you're town and reading this, please bear with me. The conclusion I made above might seem really strange to you right now, and you don't have to agree with it. Here goes: The following post has great relevance. On August 21 2011 05:57 Jackal58 wrote: Somebody is being coached. + Show Spoiler + On August 19 2011 09:44 RayzorFlash wrote: It does seem highly strange and suspicious that in a game full of lurkers, he's gone above and beyond to draw attention to himself... On August 19 2011 09:56 RayzorFlash wrote: It would be very easy for scum to abide by the "three post a day" criteria if they wanted to... I just don't think it would be that effective, because just based on the sheer number of new people, and the ratio of scum-to-townie, there are inevitably going to be a lot of townies in the lurker list, and wasting town KPs on them would only make it easier for the scum... On August 19 2011 13:42 RayzorFlash wrote: I said in my previous post how having us waste KPs on lurkers would further scum agenda, and thats why I think the actions seem suspicious, especially considering that we know there are a lot of new players here, and scum do too. New players generally have more a tendency to lurk, or become inactive, and thus, if we put together a lurker list, there WILL be a fairly large amount of people on it. This is especially true if they're townies or blues, as if they're mafia they will try their hardest to stay OFF that list... I think its NOT a good idea to just declare that everyone start killing off lurkers, unless there is actually a REASON to kill them, not just because they're lurking. Its a double-edged sword for sure, it does make the cultists come out and have to participate, which might reveal them, but it also runs the risk of killing a lot of townies... If we want to put together a lurker list, by all means do it, I just hope we exercise a little bit of restraint and use the kills given good reasons, since we don't want to make this EASIER for the mafia On August 20 2011 01:40 RayzorFlash wrote: Your post seemed like obvious scum to me, the scummiest post so far, and I will most likely be away for the rest of the day so I put in a vote against you... I'll check back later and see if I have to change it, but I doubt if I will :p On August 20 2011 13:32 RayzorFlash wrote: I'm sticking with my vote on Sevryn unless something ridiculously obvious jumps out in the next 24 hours... I think by far that he has had the scummiest behaviour, both in terms of the vote, and then the defensive roll-back after he was called out on it... I'm hesitant on Palmar just because he's been creating a far from ideal first Day in here... He contributed the main talking point sure, but his argument for that talking point was very weak... However, Dropbear has definitely acted a bit suspicious and got overly defensive, and the mayor idea seems scummy because he recommended himself for it right off the bat... Those 3 seem like the major suspects this first day... I think (at least) ONE of Palmar or DropBear is definitely a scum, and if we start nearing a majority on either of them I will switch my vote from Sevryn and get him at a later date... I am most definitely voting for one of those 3 though On August 21 2011 04:55 RayzorFlash wrote: Supersoft, you seem to be trying wayyyy too hard to get Sevryn not lynched... Since the start you've tried putting up 3-4 different reasons to direct the vote away from Sevryn, first with a weak defense, then when called out on the defense being wishywashy, you quickly backtracked on it and said that you were just pointing out how anyone could have done that, and immediately started pressuring Xtfftc. While Xtfftc has definitely acted suspiciously, I see it as more suspicious that you (and Palmar, to a degree) were the two who along with Sevryn caused the pressure-vote issue at the start of the game anyway, and that you (and Palmar, to a degree ) are working so hard to get attention away from Sevryn and on to other people.At this point, I would expect scum to just leave Sev to defend himself since they wouldnt want to get caught defending him, and try to either set-up a subsequent lynch away from them, or try to redirect attention away from him entirely. Town right now loses NOTHING by lynching Sev. If he flips red, we immediately know who to go after next, i.e. the people defending him, or the people trying to get someone else lynched first. If he flips green, we can target the ones who have most aggressively tried to get him lynched. Its a win-win situation. Then, take a look at this: + Show Spoiler + On August 21 2011 06:02 RayzorFlash wrote: My stealth vote for you was what an actual pressure vote looks like. All of a sudden, the pressure on you made you get all defensive and even pull your vote off DropBear. I'd say it was quite successful in exposing scummy behavior. We lose a townie who has, for the entire first day contributed absolutely nothing towards discussion except a really scummy first accusation, and since then has just focused on defending himself? I don't think that's losing too much. (OOC: What does WIFOM mean??) Sure, I'll gladly take the fall if Sev proves to be green, but I don't think there was anything scummy at all about my post. I think it would be good leads to go after anyone aggressively pushing for Sev if he's green, and I know i'm included in that list :S. Since day 1, Rayzorflash has gone under the radar. I didn't think much about this post until now, when I remembered Mig made a remark about Rayzor: + Show Spoiler + On August 21 2011 10:34 Mig wrote: Meh did you guys see the post foolish quoted? This is rayzor's first ever game if he were mafia would he really put himself out there like that if he knew sevryn was green? Seems to be the opposite of how most new mafia players would play. I am going to stick with sevryn. Now, look at both of these posts together, and look at the parts I've highlighted in red. My questions: How does Rayzor know what a "real pressure vote" is, but not know what WIFOM means? He's showing knowledge of the game while simultaneously showing ignorance. It's like he's feigning ignorance, or just trying too hard. Both suggest he's probably mafia, and the simultaneity suggests he's being coached. If he was genuinely interested in contributing he could've googled WIFOM, he would've hit mafia wiki as the first hit. He's fine with losing a townie who's contributed nothing day 1? Does anyone contribute significantly day 1? He's fine with being on the hitlist when Sevryn flips green? This struck me as suspicious. If he's coached, he'll be led into doing things that confuse the town; things that we would not expect a new player to do. Clearly it's not expected for a new player, playing as scum, to put himself on the line. This is where Mig comes in. Look at Mig's post: he points out exactly this. MIG IS A GOOD PLAYER. He wanted us to believe that, because Rayzor is a new player, it would be incredibly strange for him to say such things as mafia, and to therefore ignore him. Rayzor the next day, of course, went under the radar despite saying that he was willing to be on the chopping block for Sevryn's lynch. BUT THEN, what if Mig is coaching Rayzor? Then, to me, it makes sense: Mig wants Rayzor to push a town image and say things "mafia would never say," particularly a NEW mafia player. And of course, none of us can deny that Mig is certainly capable of coaching Rayzor. Now, Jackal dies. Mig has asked us, who would kill Jackal? The last person we'd expect to pin the blame on is Mig. Mig wants us to believe this. He's playing us, like he's played us for two days. He and Rayzor are scum. Mig killed Jackal. This is my opinion. Take of it what you want. I already voted Mig. I am pushing for his lynch today. | ||
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On August 25 2011 18:25 Palmar wrote: GG everyone, I wanna apologize for two things. a) Most importantly, anything I say within the game should be considered "role-playing". If anyone takes it personally, then I'm deeply sorry, I got a bit frustrated there for a while because I'm super-competitive. So yeah, sorry about my attitude. I'm available to talk things over if anyone feels mistreated. b) Sorry for my terrible play this game. This is the worst game I've played as town since my first 3 games where I was learning. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Go get them town! Good luck, see you next game. <3 After this game let's talk :D I wanna hear your opinions ahaha | ||
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On August 25 2011 19:21 Mig wrote: Oh btw once again you have completely avoided answering my questions about foolishness' plan. Wtf? Do you think mafia tried to divert the day2 lynch or not. If so how did they do and who did it. I'm not avoiding anything. The answer is both yes and no. I think mafia diverted attention away from you, but not all on one target (that'd be too suspicious.) Primarily I think some went to xt and hiro, AFTER townies had established scum reads on them. Once it was between you and hiro, the mafia didn't have to do anything because our bad town play basically doomed us to lynching hiro. Hiro made a bunch of mistakes and fake claimed, and just in general seemed scummy. We lynched him based on that and that lynch was a real good opportunity for mafia to blend in. Granted, I also believe that some of you stuck out, but that's only in hindsight. Right now I have decent scumreads on 3 people; the strongest being you and Rayzor, and then the third being Brownbear. I'm not super concerned with the last 3 yet, but I have an idea of where to look, and I know we'll receive more information soon. Vain is a likely fourth to me. I think Brownbear is suspicious because he diverted attention from you at a critical juncture. xt had 4 or 5 votes when he voted for him, and you had something like 6. After that point, hiro began appearing scummy and IMO the mafia really didn't need to do anything to protect you. Also, earlier today I was really convinced supersoft and Palmar were scumbuddies, and I'm slightly suspicious still of supersoft, but after the night actions came in I'm significantly less so. It just seemed like they were attempting a voteswitch with how they acted at the end of day 2, and hiro certainly appeared to me as scum. The order of events just seemed weird at the time, but in hindsight that seems too obvious for scum to out themselves like that by attempting such a blatant vote switch. Of course, hindsight is 20/20. Although I'm rather upset that Palmar was town and I was reading scum on him, I'm glad that mafia targetted him rather than someone else, otherwise I'd probably have stuck my vote on supersoft because of my gut. Right now I'm trying to base my vote as much as possible on objective evidence. I'm going to try and take a small break today. I've posted my analysis of Mig and I encourage you all to read it. I feel like over the past day or so my opinions have swung back and forth a lot (and this may be due to my newness) and I don't want to see any more mislynches. This time, though, I feel like we have a very strong candidate for scum. Anyway, I'm off to bed (it's almost 4 am here). Just thought I'd drop in to see if there were any responses before I headed off. | ||
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On August 25 2011 20:54 Mig wrote: + Show Spoiler + Although I'm rather upset that Palmar was town and I was reading scum on him, I'm glad that mafia targetted him rather than someone else Possible scum slip if there is a scum vigilante? Kurumi claimed the palmar kill. 4 people died last night why would you think mafia shot palmar WBG? I forgot about kurumi. No scum slip. Although I'm not certain of kurumi's alignment. I lean town, but there isn't enough info to make a conclusion there. | ||
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I'm a bit bummed that no one responded to my massive post on Mig though haha. The conclusion might seem a little...far fetched, but I think there is a link between Mig and Rayzor. The problem we have right now, I guess, is that we need to pick between lynching a lurker and lynching someone who has been more active. I will stand by my vote for Mig, and as I said earlier I am pushing for his lynch today. Upon reading some of these arguments, I can tell, however, that there is still some lingering doubt on Mig. Can we discuss why some of this doubt exists? Anyway, some of my opinions on the names that have been thrown around today. In red are the players I have the strongest scum reads on. In green, town reads. Black is either way, or not enough information. Trotske/iGrok: + Show Spoiler + Trotske seemed scummy to me. I made an analysis of him a day or two ago; I suggest that you all read it (again.) However, I think we shouldn't be pushing for a lynch of iGrok because he's barely been here and we need more information before we can label him as scum. xtfftc:+ Show Spoiler + I lean toward town on xt, but not as strongly as other players. I think xt needs some more investigation. Again, another person I think we should keep around, see if he contributes, see what information we can gain over the next day. nard: + Show Spoiler + he hasn't posted enough. It's certainly possible that he's lurking scum. I usually excused his lack of posting when I was on because he's from Germany (right?) so the time difference seemed to explain a lot to me. However, even after I come back from a break he still hasn't posted, so that's rather strange to me. I don't recall nard once contributing to the town effort. Certainly a good lurker lynch candidate, in my opinion, but, again, we need to determine whether we will lynch a lurker today or lynch someone like Mig. Lucidity: + Show Spoiler + I have a fairly strong town read on Lucidity. The manner in which he argued with supersoft after the hiro lynch, and the way he has written his larger posts, suggests to me that he is town. I don't think a mafia member would be so bold in such few posts. Since my job is to find scum and not confirm townies, I will not be wasting my time on Lucidity unless there is good analysis presented by other players to suggest a scum alignment. Brownbear: + Show Spoiler + I think he's scum. Right now, he's conveniently disappeared following Foolish's accusations. It's been 22 hours since he said he'd come up with a rebuttal, (that would "have to wait till morning") but no rebuttal has been seen. Brownbear is trying to fly under the radar, IMO. We should make him a priority lynch target along with Mig, and then lynch one of them. By making Brownbear a priority, we can glean some good information about the alignments of the rest of the mafia we suspect. In addition, if we use two strong scum candidates such as Mig and Brownbear, there is no choice left for mafia but to bus one of their own. It's possible we almost achieved that situation yesterday, but bad town play coupled with some sneaky mafia resulted in another town lynch. Rayzorflash: + Show Spoiler + I already posted analysis on this guy and the connection I perceive between him and Mig. Click me Mig + Show Spoiler + Likewise, I already posted analysis on Mig and the connection I perceive between him and Rayzor. IMO, our best candidate today. Click me | ||
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No corrupted liquidians have flipped. Therefore, it is certainly possible that there are 6 mafia PLUS 1-2 traitors who are going to fuck up our reads. That means that our lynch today is very important. If we lynch town today, I'm fairly certain we will lose if there is even one traitor. | ||
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On August 26 2011 10:21 Varpulis wrote: No way there's more than 1 traitor, from a balance perspective. Let's assume there is one, and work that way? We need to work with our worst case scenarios. Assume there's no blues, and that there is a traitor. | ||
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Rofl @ me not wanting to vote switch to chaos. I even said that you flipping red, Mig, has no bearing on chaos's alignment. He could still be red, and I provided clear reasons for that. I'm not for switching votes because you're scum! Not too hard to figure that one out. | ||
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On August 27 2011 01:44 supersoft wrote: by the way, I am not going to lynch BB instead of mig. sorry, I think mig is the safer bet there. Actually I thought about it and I have to say I am lynching noone instead of mig today. We discussed this lynch pretty decently. And if we try to find new target now just because he claimed to be tracker, it will end in a mess. You know, what would you do if you're accused like mig and GM offers you a fakerole... Of course he's a tracker. This is the most valuable role we got except for vigilantes... I don't believe him and his claim... it doesn't change anything, this specific role casts even more suspicion over him :-[ I agree strongly with this. We kill Mig. On August 27 2011 01:45 GMarshal wrote: Bumatlarge replaces BrownBear Wtf? Did he request replacement? This replacement can really mess with our leads on BB. I say we lay off bumatlarge for a day or two; lynch Mig and then follow our other scum leads. However, I do think that we should put an extra layer on scrutiny on him because of how we all perceived BB before the replacement. On August 27 2011 00:30 Foolishness wrote: We can always just kill BrownBear and settle this Mig thing tomorrow. My case against BrownBear still stands as he hasn't even posted yet today, and he's only got 11 hours before day ends. I do believe that Mig is lying, but part of me feels that we should just take the safest option here. If he's indeed the tracker, it will force the mafia to roleblock him (or they risk him finding a mafia so once he does die we will know who to lynch). Of course we will make him check whoever we want (Pyo). I also do not believe chaos13 to be mafia. And Mig you never commented about my lurker list. I disagree with your assessment of who we should lynch because of the Brownbear replacement. I know it came after your post, but even if BB wasn't replaced I would still prefer an Mig lynch. The safest option to me is lynching the fuck out of scumig. On August 26 2011 22:43 supersoft wrote: "Oh, wow. Curu and Supersoft appear simultaneously 36 hours before the deadline and announce that I have refused to vote for Mig, although there are 15 others who haven't at the time. Wow." There are exactly 7 people that refused to vote for rayzorflahs at day1 and also didn't vote either you or mig at day2 You are one of them. I have been suspicious of most of them earlier and with different reasons. Kurumi is not one of them. You accused him, that strengthens my concerns. Until I am proven wrong by mig, rayzor or you flipping green, I continue to push this. Your vote on mig at this point of time doesn't change anything. You know I have something good against you there. That's the reason, why you're talking to me again. Thank you. It's hard for me to tell whether xtfftc is appearing scummy or if he's just defending himself. To me, I think I have to disagree with you here, supersoft. It's very well possible that xt is talking to you simply to defend himself. He's been attacked by quite a few of us, and the way he has defended most of the accusations suggests to me that he's town. The reason I'm unsure about him, though, is precisely because so many of us have accused him. It's hard to quantify, but I think we should keep xt in mind but not lynch him until we have no better scum target. Since we have Mig and Rayzor still alive, let's give xt a chance to contribute. We can lynch Mig, and then our focus will reshift. Also, I'm not sure what kind of connection Mig's alignment will have with xt's, if any. I felt like they might both be mafia because of the way the voting worked yesterday; after hiro made a mistake it's certainly possible that the mafia saw an opportunity to capitalize, if both Mig and xt are scum. The vote switch to hiro would then not appear scummy because hiro's mistakes made everyone suspect him. So, to reiterate, if we were in the optimal situation of lynching two mafia yesterday before the hiro happenstance, then Mig's red alignment probably suggests xt is red as well. We need to figure out whether we were in that situation, and I think we can figure that out by looking at the vote patterns. On August 27 2011 02:02 Curu wrote: Also hi scumatlarge. I loled. On August 27 2011 00:43 supersoft wrote: I agree with you to take the safest option, but i'd prefer rayzorflash for that job. Kill Mig first, then we can deal with Rayzor. | ||
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On August 27 2011 02:47 GMarshal wrote: Apparently Irene is really screwing with his travel plans and he would be MIA for the next 72+ hours, so he requested replacement. Bumatlarge took me up on it. BrownBear apologizes profusely for the inconvenience Ah, thanks. Irene, you bitch. | ||
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I'm heading home right now from class, so I'll keep this short. We NEED to lynch Mig today. Any other lynch target is NOT optimal. Don't second guess yourselves; we did this days one and two and then got screwed by our own mistakes. If we decide to lynch BB/bum we get no information, bum hasn't even posted anything yet. When I get home I'll be making a post that provides my thoughts on the history of the votes. I was looking at it this morning but I didn't have time to formulate my opinion. | ||
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On August 27 2011 07:44 supersoft wrote: Brownbear is innocent by the way. Doesn't matter what mig flips. o_O I need to hear this lol...I had a pretty scummy read on him. | ||
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We're short on time on today, no? Should I post my analysis or complete it? I'm like halfway done and it's already pretty long. I might just rush through the rest of it. | ||
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TLDR Anyway, my best conclusions. Again, bold=strong read, italic=lean, green=town, red=mafia, black=swings either way. Don't be offended if you're showing up as black/italic; it just means I don't have enough information on you. It may be due to lack of activity, or just uncertain behavior. I think that at least 1 of the italic red is mafia, and I'm willing to bet that 2 are. It'd be a miracle if all 3 are, but I'm not 100% sure. 1.Trotske replaced by iGrok 2. Lucidity 3. chaos13 4. ghrur replaced by Barundar 5. Jackal58 Liquidite (Vanilla Townie) killed night 2 6. Varpulis 7. xtfftc 8. hiro protagonist - Overly Inquisitive Liquidite (Wandering townie) lynched day 2 9. Erandorr 10. Munk-E - Overly Inquisitive Liquidite (Wandering townie) modkilled day 2 11. RayzorFlash 12. QuickSilver7 - Paladin (Vigilante) killed night 1 13. darkponcho replaced by VisceraEyes 14. Vain 15. chaoser 16. GreYMisT replaced by InserT_FreQ Liquidite (Vanilla Townie) Killed night 2 17. JeeJee - Necrophiliac Liquidite (Miller) killed night 1 18. supersoft 19. wherebugsgo 20. Navillus 21. Curu 22. Foolishness 23. nard 24. BrownBear - replaced by Bumatlarge 25. Mig 26. Sevryn - Liquidite (Vanilla Townie), lynched day 1 27. Pyo 28. Kurumi 29. Palmar Liquidite (Vanilla Townie) killed night 2 30.DropBear Guardian Angel (Medic) Killed night 2 Alright, so I'm in the process of rereading posts/votes since day 1. This one popped out to me (it's just funny as hell in retrospect) On August 20 2011 01:47 Curu wrote: youngminii Palmar why is DB scum over Sevyrn? He made a stupid policy post in Werewolves too and he was a Medic. LOL I guess when DB makes stupid policy posts he's always a medic. Anyway, moving on to the actual content of this post... I started with Day 1. My analysis this time around focuses on voting patterns and the reasons that players have given for votes. I'll try to spoiler as much as possible so this stays organized and minimizes scrolling. The first interesting vote of the game was made by Sevryn, early in the first day: + Show Spoiler [Sevryn's vote post] + On August 19 2011 23:39 Sevryn wrote: Right now DB is looking the scummiest imo and after what palmar did in Swedish house mafia I am inclined to trust him. That said if there is a good case against anyone else i would be willing to give DropBear another lookskie ## vote DropBear + Show Spoiler [vote analysis] + This comes off as scummy. In hindsight, we know that Sevryn was town, and that can actually be exemplified by some of his following posts (in particular, his calling out of Rayzorflash's ninja vote) Would I vote someone who wrote like this in a future game? Yeah, I'd probably vote them again. I'd certainly think twice about it, since I now know that townies are susceptible to coming off the wrong way, but I'd probably still consider it a scummy post. Let's forget for a minute why the post is scummy. We all "knew" it was. So then, with the majority of us thinking that Sevryn's first post was scummy, what was the effect? How would that affect the way a townperson would approach the post/vote, and how would that affect a mafia member? Next post should help answer this. + Show Spoiler [first vote on Sevryn] + First up is Curu's vote. The reason this is an important vote is because it was the first serious vote of the game, on a post a lot of us thought was scummy (just look at our one-line reactions). Curu's vote came roughly 45 minutes after Sevryn's. With the vote came a clarifying question, though, which provides me with a town read on Curu. + Show Spoiler [Curu's posts before vote] + On August 20 2011 00:01 Curu wrote: lol this is the scummiest vote I have ever seen. On August 20 2011 00:30 Curu wrote: Naw Thanks for drawing Sevyrn out though. So Sevyrn, because Palmar was a Townie in a completely different game, you decide to trust him and sheep his vote blindly? Note the times on these posts. Curu posted before he voted. This is another thing to keep in mind, it'll be of relevance in a moment. Bolded is the part that suggests to me that Curu genuinely voted Sevryn because he thought he was scummy. It's not much, and it's not conclusive, but at least it's there. Keep in mind that this vote and the explanation is too obvious/short to actually telegraph very much about a person's alignment other than the fact that they are potentially mafia. The vote will say little about a person's town alignment, and that's not really that important. A good mafia player will know this (and thus be able to blend in through a vote that is not suspicious) but a careless mafia player will not think about it and telegraph his/her alignment through the vote/vote post. This happens in vote #2 coming up. + Show Spoiler [Rayzor's vote and post] + Rayzor's vote comes BEFORE his post. This is really fishy. He votes 55 minutes after Sevryn posted, so not amazingly fast, but not slowly either. Sevryn calls out Rayzor (a hint that Sevryn is town, one that I think foolish picked up on but none of the rest of us did) and Rayzor posts an "explanation" 40 minutes after being called out, 2 hours after Sevryn's post. On August 20 2011 01:40 RayzorFlash wrote: Your post seemed like obvious scum to me, the scummiest post so far, and I will most likely be away for the rest of the day so I put in a vote against you... I'll check back later and see if I have to change it, but I doubt if I will :p Does he ask questions? Nope. Does he actually even intend to contribute? Nope. That, to me, is the hallmark of mafia. Rayzor votes Sevryn with no explanation, then when called out, provides an "explanation" that provides nothing new, and nothing other than, "you're scum and if you're not the majority target later I can change my vote anyway." A town player would be eager to contribute or discuss the lynch target. Rayzor here is more concerned about actually voting with the majority than anything else, as exemplified by his last sentence about checking back later to see if he has to change his vote. Selfish vote. Also, timing of the vote matters here. Note how he voted almost immediately after someone else did (Curu voted for Sevryn like 9 minutes before Rayzor did.) Obviously the first voter on someone always gets the most attention until someone else makes a post or a vote that is scummy. Rayzor was the second and didn't suffer from that type of attention. Let's skip forward a bit here. Xt's and BB's votes were slightly scummy to me (xt voted on Palmar and BB voted on JeeJee), with BB's vote rather scummier than xt's. He just had a bad reason for voting JeeJee, but we don't really need to focus on this; there wasn't much information to go on at the time anyway. Supersoft voted for xt for pretty good reasoning, giving me an inclination toward a town read on him at that point. Once he posted defending Sevryn I became suspicious, but reading his future posts, that wore off. Navillus had a couple posts that were like ?? but nothing that really stood out. + Show Spoiler [Mig's vote] + On August 20 2011 08:03 Mig wrote: Sevryn is by far the scummiest. His vote on DB had a ridiculously scummy reason behind it. After he got called out on it he back peddles and claims it was just a pressure vote. And he says he didn't see anything scummy about DB and his only reason for pressure voting was again because of something palmar did it swedish mafia. And then he says he took the vote off not really because he thought db was innocent but he didn't want to get lynched for bandwagoning lol. Sevryn is just lol scum. OH HERRO SCUM! Foolish was the first and only person to pick up on this post for a while. Foolish's votepost itself wasn't very detailed, but his quick two follow up posts were. He clearly described why he suspected Mig and why he didn't suspect Palmar or Sevryn. His posts had valid points; Mig didn't bring anything new. He didn't mention any of the other candidates. He didn't discuss any of the various other targets/topics that were floating around at the time. He went straight for a Sevryn vote, and it flew under most of our radars because Sevryn was really scummy to us. This is the mark of a good mafia player. His vote was ONLY readable through meta. When I went back and read some of Mig's posts over the past couple days in his previous games, I came to find that Foolish's argument has a lot of merit. Mig doesn't play like this when he is town. At the time I saw this post, I didn't fully understand because I didn't know Mig's mafia history, his meta. Now, I have a little bit of a better understanding of it, and I agree with Foolish's initial suspicions. This post alone has made me value the use of meta arguments. + Show Spoiler [intermediate votecount] + On August 20 2011 17:13 sandroba wrote: Day 1 Vote Count: DropBear Palmar sevryn Curu RayzorFlash Mig Trotske wherebugsgo Munk-E JeeJee JeeJee BrownBear Palmar Navilus chaos13 Varpulis Mig Foolishness xfttfc supersoft QuickSilver7 Here I present to you the first vote summary. In bold red are mafia I highly suspect, while in bold green are those I am (almost) certain are town. Italic green text is leaning town, italic red is leaning mafia. Black is lack of information/uncertainty. Three of the mafia reads I have today voted on Sevryn early, immediately after he made his mistake. This makes sense to me; mafia want to capitalize on a townie mistake to mask themselves. By voting a townsperson who has made themselves appear scummy, and then get that vote in as quickly as possible (but not first) a mafia player can blend in by appearing to contribute/vote for someone who is scummy without actually having to contribute anything. This is exactly what Rayzor, Mig, and Trotske did. Trotske was a little different in that he put suspicion on Foolish while voting Sevryn; his suspicion on Foolish was substantiated by his vote for DB as mayor. This made him appear less suspicious at the time, because it seemed as if he was attempting to contribute something. If you read his post, however, it's clear that he isn't actually contributing anything. Is he trying to feign contribution? Maybe. You decide. I'm putting his post in the next spoiler. BB, on the other hand, voted for JeeJee, and that too was scummy. His posts since then have painted him even scummier. Not much of a voting pattern on JeeJee though, since clearly everyone else correctly thought (I'm assuming here) that JeeJee was town. We have seen JeeJee flip, and so we all know that now. + Show Spoiler [Trotske's vote post] + On August 20 2011 08:40 Trotske wrote: I agree I think Sevryn is looking pretty scummy but I am curious what you guys think about Foolishness this is his one post after the game started. he agree's with dropbears mayor plan which gives one person the power to decide between tow people and chooses someone who hasn't been acting super pro town. This scream scummy to me, inactive and then comes in with a single line to vote on a not very town plan imo. so until he defends himself some more i'm goign to vote sevryn but foolishness needs to post something more or I am going to start pushing for his lynch. Something else to think about here is that Trotske doesn't actually support his sevryn vote. He just says that Sevryn looks scummy. He doesn't try to discuss Sevryn, he doesn't try to ask Sevryn questions. He votes with the bandwagon, and then attempts to justify his suspicion of Foolish by saying that he's a lurker. Keep in mind, this was AFTER several people said that lynching lurkers is a stupid idea. My scumread on Trotske started here. + Show Spoiler [Palmar's first serious vote] + On August 20 2011 22:20 Palmar wrote: BrownBear So, I decided to try a new tactic this game. Most towns spend day one arguing casually about policies and then lynch a scummy lurker. This is sometimes effective, sometimes kind of weird. This game I decided to just tear up the thread with some super-awesome tunneling on the first scummy fucker I found, and read responses by other people. There are two people who stick out to me as scummy from their reactions to my tunneling. Namely Sevryn and BrownBear. I feel more confident BrownBear is the scum of the two. There are quite a few things in BrownBear's logic that really scare me. First off, let's take a look at the post that initially raised my suspicions of him: I immediately called him out on the scum logic in his posts. I pointed out that one wouldn't have to make a big stretch to understand the bolded sentence as a free pass to anyone who was being active in the thread. Which conveniently enough also clears BB of any suspicion. He also mentions the possibility of two townies just shouting at each other. The reason this jumps so much out to me is that I used exactly the same logic as scum on day 1 in SNMMII as scum. I pointed out that two loudmouths were probably just townies shouting at each other and then I suggested that the real threat are the inactive people. Deflecting lynches onto inactives is mafia's favorite way of playing day 1. BrownBear's defense of this, is that I'm twisting his words. But can anyone honestly says he understands the bolded sentence in any other way than BrownBear wants to kill off inactive people over people who are active, because the active people will reveal themselves as scum at some point. Next post, after demanding contribution from me: The first sentence is interesting. He makes a point that he did not say what I called him out for, yet he implied it? What's the difference? The mindset he's working in is the same. I ask that everyone reads the post above carefully, and preferably often. Look at what he's saying. He's basically throwing a one-line accusation towards JeeJee in an attempt to divert the discussion off himself and DropBear. The bolded sentence is another one of interest. I don't actually understand how he's going to scumhunt if he actively states that "mafia is amongst the semi-actives". Well sherlock, if you tell us that you're going for semi-active people, won't the mafia just stop being semi-active? And note that he himself is definitely not amongst the semi-actives, so he cannot be mafia, by his theory. This case against JeeJee is basically just a throw-away case, BB knows well enough that JeeJee is not going to get lynched based on this case, and he's happy to look like he's not supporting a town lynch while throwing an off-vote on some random "semi-active". Interesting that he calls out for other people to back up their accusations, yet your entire case against JeeJee is: Re-read his posts. Look at them from the point of view he is scum, understand what motivations he might have for posting like this if he's town. I think we have a great lynch candidate here town. BrownBear is scum ##Vote BrownBear Here we have Palmar's vote. In contrast to some other players' votes, Palmar has reasoned his vote out well, and provided substantial thought-out analysis of his target. I saw this vote initially, and it gave me a townread on Palmar. However, I did not take his vote seriously because of the way he had been spamming. I regret not taking Palmar seriously, but the doubts I began to feel on day 2 stemmed from my frustration with his posting habits. At the very least, it serves as an example now as to what makes a good vote/voting post. Contrast this with Sevryn's, Rayzor's, Mig's, Brownbear's, and Trotske's opening vote posts. Sevryn was town, but he just made himself look scummy with that first vote. + Show Spoiler [BB's second vote post] + On August 21 2011 01:37 BrownBear wrote: And since I should practice what I preach and back up my votes (that much is true, Palmar) here's my thoughts on our friendly neighborhood sevryn: His first post in game, seems rather silly, and is the post he's caught a lot of flak over. To jump in and insta-bandwagon is usually a poor choice. Also, trusting players based off of previous games is a poor choice in general. This looks to me like someone seeing an easy early bandwagon and hopping on it, hoping they can ride out the rest of the day cycle under the radar. Pretty obviously he gets called out on it quickly, and then after a few posts this happens: LOL PRESSURE VOTE JAYKAY GUYZ. Basically, I call bullshit on this for a few reasons: He says he "made up a bullshit reason" but that's not how you properly pressure vote. You pressure vote by building a legitimate case against a guy, try to get others to agree with you, then see how he reacts when there's pressure on him. Not by going "oh palmars right he was right in previous games ALL RIGHT THEN AUTOVOTEBOTS ROLL OUT". It was pretty obvious your vote on DB had no real teeth behind it, as was shown by you backing off the instant someone yelled at you. I don't think you care about catching scum, you just want to find a hole to hide in for the rest of the day. Since then, basically nothing except feebly trying to defend his "pressure vote", and nothing since like page 15 or so. Summary: He definitely wants to hide under the radar. THe instant he got caught in the spotlight he shriveled up and backed off. This to me speaks scum or traitor. Either one is a worthy lynch candidate, and is a hell of a lot better than our usual "fuck around and then lynch a random guy" first day strategy, as palmar so succinctly put it. Vote Sevryn. Hmmm...Okay, nothing immediately popped out to me on this one. On a second read, I felt like there were some things put in here deliberately to hide behind. First: And since I should practice what I preach and back up my votes (that much is true, Palmar) here's my thoughts on our friendly neighborhood sevryn: Red part=admission he basically voted for JeeJee for no reason. Scummy. Second: Since then, basically nothing except feebly trying to defend his "pressure vote", and nothing since like page 15 or so. Summary: He definitely wants to hide under the radar. THe instant he got caught in the spotlight he shriveled up and backed off. This to me speaks scum or traitor. Either one is a worthy lynch candidate, and is a hell of a lot better than our usual "fuck around and then lynch a random guy" first day strategy, as palmar so succinctly put it. Feebly trying to defend: this is classic illogical mafia thinking. Guy defends himself, it says nothing about his alignment. How he defends himself is more important. This is why I was up for a vote switch near the end of the day. Sevryn's defense of himself appeared to be genuine, and that became more clear to me very close to the lynch deadline. By then, of course, it was too late. The second part: summary text. Just fluff. If you read BB's post carefully, you see that all of it is regurgitated stuff from like 3 other people, most notably Curu, who reiterated the case for Sevryn right before BB posted. IMO, BB saw the opportunity to shadow Curu's call for Sevryn's lynch. In the process, he simply parroted Curu. Again, nothing blatantly scummy, but generally things that are blatantly scummy are probably townies fucking up by making mistakes (as I've come to learn by experience now...thanks hiro, sevryn :p ) + Show Spoiler [Sevryn's real vote] + On August 21 2011 05:13 Sevryn wrote: Rayzorflash im calling you out. Most of his posts before I become the lynch target are speculation on what mafia would or would not want and i view this is as slightly scummy. Then he ninja votes on me and when called out and then this last post Yes you do lose something you lose a townie when i flip green and going after the people who most aggressively tried to get me lynched is all WIFOM. Also MIG just from his meta he has normally caught the entire scum team by now yet hes nowhere to be found. ##vote RayzorFlash This was the post that began to mess with my head. Until this point I was sure Sevryn was mafia. Then he came along and did this, and I was like...whoa...he might not be mafia! Decent arguments throughout this post. He also adds that tidbit toward the end about Mig. When I read this, it explained to me what Sevryn had been afk doing; he had been coming up with decent analysis to post, to contribute, rather than sit around and "feebly defend" himself. After this point I began considering Rayzor as the lynch rather than Sevryn, but I was doubtful of our ability to push that to completion. + Show Spoiler [towncred to xtfftc] + On August 21 2011 05:54 xtfftc wrote: Your post was stupid. DropBear's campaign for mayor is something worth analysing but it's not like it was going to happen, ever. Foolishness was simply acting funny. If you want to go against Foolishness, don't base your post around such a worthless argument. Also, Supersoft, after crying out about how I was avoiding casting my vote for Sevryn, we are facing the possibility of a non-linch due to you (and Jackal) unvoting. I realize that this has little to do with voting, but I feel like no one else is going to go back this far, so I felt like I needed to point this post out. This is the post that made me think xt was town for a while. I still am unsure on xt; I tend to flip between slightly red and slightly green on him. I think this is worth a second look. If anyone can find or suggest analysis that will give us a consistent read on xt, that'd be great. + Show Spoiler [vain's ninja vote] + Right in the middle of the Rayzor switch, Vain voted for Sevryn. No legible reason whatsoever: On August 21 2011 10:31 Vain wrote: Ok, i think i'm gonna vote on Rayzorflash. I just don't believe a scum would vote that fast. No, wait scrap that.Sevryn voted as 3rd for DropBear. you can say what you want about his defence but he only started with the "pressure vote" after people asked what he was doing and that counts to me more than anything. I've mentioned this before, and that's that vain has gone under the radar despite many of us calling him out on being scummy. We should look at him at some point soon. Nothing else interesting in terms of votes really happened day 1. Vote summary: + Show Spoiler [day 1 rayzor vote] + On August 21 2011 10:19 GMarshal wrote: Day 1 Vote Count: DropBear(0) sevryn(12) Curu RayzorFlash Munk-E JeeJee BrownBear Kurumi Erandorr Varpulis xtfftc Pyo Lucidity Palmar JeeJee(0) Palmar(1) chaos13 Mig(1) chaoser xfttfc(1) QuickSilver7 BrownBear(2) Barundar nard Navillus(0) RayzorFlash(8) Sevryn Jackal58 supersoft Foolishness Trotske Navillus hiro protagonist wherebugsgo Hiro Protagonist(0) chaoser(2) Mig DropBear Less than 1 hour left, Only 28 people have voted, which leaves 2 potential modkills. Dont make me modkill anyone... Only reddish vote to me on Rayzor was Trotske. It's certainly possible he isn't red, anyway. Mig came in toward the end with a vote on Sevryn. Alright. Day 2 vote analysis. The following vote summary is important. I'm not going to go step by step with day 2 votes very much, but here's the vote summary before day 2 ended, when Mig was a serious lynch candidate. + Show Spoiler + On August 23 2011 07:35 GMarshal wrote: Day 2 Vote-count Mig(6) Foolishness chaoser Jackal58 DropBear Varpulis Curu chaoser (1) Mig BrownBear(1) Palmar Foolishness(1) chaos13 Palmar(0) Hiro Protagonist(2) RayzorFlash VisceraEyes xtfftc(4) supersoft hiro protagonist wherebugsgo BrownBear Vain(0) A little over 28 hours remain in the day. Bunch of people need to vote still, Mig leading the wagon with 6 votes, but is still short of a majority Then, this one is even better: + Show Spoiler [5 min, crossed out votes included] + On August 24 2011 10:54 GMarshal wrote: Day 2 Vote-count Mig(5) Foolishness chaoser DropBear Pyo Palmar chaoser (0) BrownBear(0) Foolishness(0) Palmar(0) Hiro Protagonist(13) RayzorFlash VisceraEyes Curu Varpulis wherebugsgo Kurumi xtfftc Vain Jackal58 Mig Lucidity hiro protagonist nard xtfftc(2) supersoft BrownBear Vain(0) nard(2) GreYMisT Erandorr DropBear(1) Barundar supersoft(1) chaos13 RayzorFlash (1) DropBear chaos13(0) A little over 5 minute remain in the day. Bunch of people need to vote still, Hiro leading the wagon with 13 votes, but is still short of a majority, (14 votes) Check it out. I think that not a single mafia member voted Mig all day yesterday. I italicized my leans, but even that I'm just unsure about because there isn't enough information. I'm confident that everyone who voted for Mig yesterday was town. I'll continue to add vote analysis as I get time, and as demand wishes. If this isn't helpful, or if something confuses you about my thought process, let me know. Also, criticize my thoughts/analysis! Unless, of course, it's too much to read...lol. | ||
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THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR NOT DOUBTING YOURSELVES MORE. THANK YOU. Also, I think my theory of Mig killing Jackal held up rofl | ||
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On August 27 2011 09:56 Vain wrote: Fuuuuuuuuuuu, i almost forgot this thing. yeah, Mig needs to be lynched and then BB i hope i'm right now:\ Vote: Mig What the eff is this? If this isn't lurking mafia, I don't know what is. Filter him. I think you just got worthy of being upgraded to BOLD RED. Also, I just took a gander at the voting thread to see if the day 3 voting pattern can shed any more light on mafia. I think my read on Trotske may be wrong, or the switch to iGrok is throwing my read off. At any rate, here's the day 3 vote count right before those last 3 Mig votes. On August 27 2011 05:39 GMarshal wrote: Day 3 Votecount Mig(14) iGrok (BB) chaos13 chaoser wherebugsgo Pyo supersoft Kurumi Curu Varpulis RayzorFlash xtfftc Erandorr Barundar Foolishness Supersoft(0) chaos13(1) Mig RayzorFlash(0) BrownBear/Bumatlarge(3) nard ????Navillus Lucidity??? Mig leading with 14 votes and a majority of the votes. It takes 12 to lynch Lucidity's and Navillus's vote are a little suspicious, Lucidity's less so because he actually had a reason for voting BB over Mig. Or at least, he gave one/showed doubts about why Mig is better than BB as a lynch target. I'm still black on him. However, no one has ever done analysis of Navillus. Is he possibly a lurking mafia member? Now, the final vote, with those last 3 votes: On August 27 2011 11:46 GMarshal wrote: Day 3 FINAL Votecount Mig(17) iGrok chaos13 chaoser wherebugsgo Pyo supersoft Kurumi Curu Varpulis RayzorFlash xtfftc Erandorr Barundar Foolishness Lucidity Vain VisceraEyes Supersoft(0) chaos13(1) Mig RayzorFlash(0) BrownBear/Bumatlarge(2) nard Navillus Foolishness(1) bumatlarge Mig to be lynched Bum's vote is either total ignorance or OMGUS. Since I was reading scum on BB I think we should keep a close eye on bum tomorrow. Let's ignore his vote for now. Lucidity, Vain, and Viscera all voted really late. Is one of them scum? I think at least Vain is scum. His voting pattern, inactivity, lack of contribution, etc. all point to him being scum. Lucidity I think is probably just a townie who thought BB was a better lynch target, but there isn't enough information on this guy to be sure. (Lucidity, if you're town, this means post more. Hell, even if you're mafia you'll probably post more, but at least if you're mafia we'll be able to pick you apart) Viscera seems to be town to me because he voted Mig earlier. It just seems like he forgot to put his vote in the vote thread. I can't really explain his inactivity, but I'm not being given any scum tells so I can't really accuse Viscera on any objective grounds. More time is needed, and of course he'll get it because there are MUCH better scum leads than him. So, I guess nothing really changes in my assessment except for the fact that I'm more confident of Vain being scum now, and although BB screamed scum to me we should probably give bum at least a day to live, just so we can ensure we don't mislynch. So, my focus list: 1. Rayzorflash 2. Vain 3. nard 4. bumatlarge 5. iGrok 6. xtfftc 7. Navillus 8. Pyo 9. Lucidity | ||
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1. Rayzorflash 2. Vain 3. nard 4. bumatlarge 5. iGrok 6. xtfftc 7. Navillus 8. Pyo 9. Lucidity | ||
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On August 21 2011 10:38 Foolishness wrote: Can someone remind me tomorrow that we should kill Vain? | ||
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On August 27 2011 13:26 iGrok wrote: @WBG: You still think I'm mafia? After I started the vote for Mig, shot down attempts to split votes between Mig and BB, and... well I haven't told you why Kurumi is scum yet. I've got to think about when to release that, I'm not sure if it'd be better far in advance or right before daypost. If you're worried about it, post it before the daypost. I thought Trotske was mafia. I used to be more certain of it, then I kinda reread some stuff and I was somewhat unsure. I left it italic red because I realized that second-guessing isn't always the best idea. From your posts alone I'd lean town on you. However, you don't have many posts; just about a page. That isn't really your fault, seeing as you're a replacement, but I'd just prefer to see you post more before I go back on that assessment. The problem right now, of course, is that there are still a few lingering lurkers. Mafia can be one of them. Pyo, for example. No one's really considered that guy at all. | ||
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Let's start with Rayzor. We can move on from there but I think vain/nard would be good choices. The other one I'd like to point out is Trotske/iGrok, but I'm sure by the time we finish lynching Rayzor (like 60 hours from now?) we'll have a lot more information about the lurkingish mafia. | ||
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On August 27 2011 13:26 iGrok wrote: @WBG: You still think I'm mafia? After I started the vote for Mig, shot down attempts to split votes between Mig and BB, and... well I haven't told you why Kurumi is scum yet. I've got to think about when to release that, I'm not sure if it'd be better far in advance or right before daypost. Oops, I meant to add this to the post, but I had two windows open :/ I don't know if you're mafia, honestly. I think it's best to keep you alive for a day or two, and kill one of Rayzor/vain. | ||
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On August 28 2011 07:57 GMarshal wrote: flavor text's are just that, flavor. Noisy Neighbors and Millers are not informed of their sad condition Also, storm is getting pretty nasty out here, if I lose power expect the day-post to be delayed. Ah that sucks. I hope you're alright, stay safe! I feel bad, I'm here in California munching on my chocolate bread, it's sunny outside and my only worry is getting chocolate and crumbs all over my laptop On August 28 2011 08:59 iGrok wrote: Well, that's good enough. So: The case against Kurumi. Read all of these quotes. Also, Kurumi had been going on for a while (4 days ago in real time) about having a bullet (he said it was a hammer repeatedly) - and yet he was neither blocked nor killed? Either supersoft is town (unlikely), or Kurumi is scum. Furthermore: Including hiro-protagonist in your list of a scum circle after he's already flipped blue. What the fuck? And then, finally, there's my pressure for a claim. Or more specifically, your response. You claim does call for you to have a knife. In fact, it fits perfectly. Some of you may have noted already that Kurumi's claim contradicts my first point. After I accused Kurumi of scum, I pm'd GMarshal asking if dayposts were pure flavor or not. He replied in the affirmative (I'm not posting a pm here), however after reading all the lists of roles and previous day and night posts, I'm afraid that GMarshal's brilliant writing may have revealed more than he meant to, and I believe that this perfect roleclaim is his answer to it. Filter Kurumi's posts. Every time his kp comes it, its a HAMMER. Now, what did Kurumi do at the beginning of the game? He pissed people off, got the town angry (well, most people ignored him to be fair). I'll finish later but I have to run. ----maaaaybe. I'm not convinced, but it doesn't matter, I think we'll have a day or two at least to build a case against Kurumi (if it exists). In the same time, Kurumi will also be able to show whether or not he is town-aligned with some more activity and contribution. Meanwhile, I say we lynch Vain, since we seem to have doubts about Rayzor. (I don't, but I'm only one voice, what can I say? :D ) I suppose I should reiterate that we can't second guess ourselves. Also, I've been taking a close look at bumatlarge/BB's posts over the past night. His vote on foolish was rather strange to me, but I guess it could be excused by the fact that he didn't know foolish was almost 100% confirmed town. I say we keep a close eye on bum. BAL, you should contribute to our scum hunting efforts. Otherwise, I can't say much for wanting to keep you alive in a day or two. | ||
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On August 28 2011 10:55 Foolishness wrote: nard is 100% mafia. If I die it will be instantly clear how I know this information. Yes it's 100%. I wanted to bring this information up yesterday but the timing never came, especially after Mig claimed. It should be clear why I had everyone write up what they thought about those 3 people. Make sure to look at the people who didn't respond to that (there are a few who did, and they are all on my suspect list). Kill nard today so that the mafia will have their KP reduced. Mafia list: nard, BrownBear, Barundar, Pyo, RayzorFlash. If one of those flip green then Erandorr. and vain? He's not mafia? | ||
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We can kill nard, vain, or Rayzor today I think. | ||
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On August 28 2011 11:11 chaoser wrote: Alright guys, since foolishness has fallen, I fear soon for my life... I am a DT Inquisitor - welcome to TL Mafia XLIV you are High Inquisitor Scarn, here in liquidia on independent assignment to lead the actions against the cult. You are perhaps the oldest living inquisitor, and with age comes experience and wisdom . You scorn weapons as below the dignity of an Inquisitor, instead you will use your investigative abilities to crush the cult.You may check a player each night and see if he is Innocent or Guilty . Be cautious however, ever since you took a blow to the head while facing off against the Deamon Lord Sepultus in the ancient abandoned temple of the burning flame you have been unsure of the reliability of your investigative abilities and even of your grasp on reality. I checked Mig night one and got back guilty which is why I've been on his ass for so long. To check my own sanity I checked Foolishness night two and got back green so I know I'm sane. When mig flipped red it proved it beyond a doubt. I checked vain last night and got back [r]red[/r]. I say we lynch vain today over since I'm more sure of his scumminess over nard's. EDITTED: in exactly how my pm looks wtf...why the hell did you reveal now and not later in the day? Alright. Anyway, I'm up for lynching nard or vain. However, I'm right now more comfortable with lynching nard based on what Foolish breadcrumbed us. I'm going to lead that lynch right now. ##vote nard Now, the (IMO) more important matter of today: If I'm not mistaken, mafia still has a KP of THREE. Only TWO people died last night. Therefore, SOMEONE got saved. We need that someone to identify themselves so that we can reevaluate our scumlists. Right now, there are 12 townies left and 5 mafia. It's potentially 11 townies and 5 mafia plus 1 traitor, but there's still work to do. I doubt we have a vig left, and we probably don't have a medic either, so we're going to be going down 2 at a time, while we can only kill mafia 1 at a time during day. IMO this means we need to be VERY careful about who we lynch for the next 3 days. If we can get mafia down to 2 then we'll be in a strong position to win, as at that point mafia will have a KP of 1 and we'll hopefully still be 6 or 7 on the day we have 2 mafia left. Nard is a sureshot, we lynch him today. I'm strongly suspicious of vain and bumatlarge still, so we can potentially look at them as well, but I'm for lynching them tomorrow/day after. That leaves 2 more to kill, which we can worry about in the coming days. In my opinion one of them is almost certainly [red]Rayzor/red], and the last one could be several people, so we need to take some time before throwing any names out there, because any distractions to us now could be fatal. Again, I implore town to be confident in scumreads and to NOT doubt yourselves. We cannot afford a mistake. Let's lynch nard today, it's an assured hit to mafia. ##vote nard | ||
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On August 28 2011 11:46 chaoser wrote: What's the difference between revealing now and later in the day? Later in the day everyone already has settled into a topic, I'd rather get it out of the way and have everyone talk about it rather than psot it midway through the cycle and break up conversation Fair enough. It can be perceived as a little scummy to claim so early. IMO the best time to claim is at the end of the day. Besides, why claim at all? The less information mafia have about our roles, the better. Since we probably don't have a medic now, you're probably dead tomorrow. You're the most useful player to us if you're indeed a DT. I would've been fine with this if DB never flipped medic. However, he's dead, and that raises some problems with power roles claiming. | ||
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I guess it's not as scummy as claiming 2-3 hours before the day ends with voting still in progress...that tends to come off really badly since people think you're attempting a vote switch. | ||
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On August 28 2011 12:01 Pyo wrote: why would you claim now of all times... you have a whole day to push for a vain lynch and now you're dead tonight. Oh well, I guess we should at least make use of your inevitable death and lower mafia kp to 2 and force them to double tap you. #vote: Vain Dude, you better start posting more before I start tunneling you into doing that. You're just BARELY staying under the modkill threshold. Either you're mafia or you're just absolutely lazy. Anyway, if over the course of the next 48 hours you don't become more active, you will CERTAINLY become part of my shortlist for mafia #6. + Show Spoiler + of course, the caveat is that posting more won't actually save you either, you gotta actually contribute stuff to help us hunt mafia lol | ||
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On August 28 2011 12:27 xtfftc wrote: Oh, and: Can someone explain it for stupid me what was Foolishness' proof? As a watcher, he saw Nard visit someone or someone visit Nard or? He probably watched someone who died on the previous night. He gets a report of everyone who visited that person. If nard visited a person who died, he's almost certainly mafia. This is, of course, has to be what Foolish was saying, because he was a watcher and he was 100% sure nard is mafia. Now, the thing about vain is that there is a TINY possibility he's not mafia. But we'll wait for his claim before anything is said. | ||
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You know what I mean? | ||
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What's your analysis of of Visceraeyes, Rayzor, and xt? I want to know your thoughts. On August 28 2011 14:59 Varpulis wrote: Guys, he's a claimed dt who's sure of his sanity. He's claimed his targets, how he knows his sanity, everything. Chaoser's fucked if he's mafia fake claiming, and I can't imagine why mafia would claim dt with no pressure on them. ##vote Vain Also, Bumatlarge is scum. Without a shadow if a doubt, he's scum. Because we already have 2 good targets today, both very likely mafia (one called scum by a dead watcher, one called scum by a living dt) I'm not going to push for his lynch today, but I want to say it before I forget. I'll expand on these after I wake up, it's 2am where I am right now. I think we should think this through carefully. Once vain and nard are back (it's fairly early in Europe right now, no?) and can claim we can choose the correct target. | ||
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On August 28 2011 15:26 Varpulis wrote: Vain's my personal preference as of now. There's no margin for error when a dt comes out and says "he's scum". I believe Chaoser's claim. In an ideal world, we lynch either nard or vain today, the other gets vigged tonight, and we lynch brownbear tomorrow, for 3 scum dead in 2 days. Yes there is ALWAYS a margin of error with a DT. You're not thinking this through. | ||
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On August 28 2011 15:56 Varpulis wrote: Hmm, the margins of error that I can see are: Chaoser's is mafia, and he's not sane. I don't think he's mafia and he's confirmed himself as sane. If you want to argue the possibility that vain's a miller, the same argument can be made replacing vain with nard and miller with nosy neighbor. For the purposes of my decision, I'm ignoring both possibilities. I would like to stress that I'm not against lynching nard. In fact I would hope that he dies too, and soon. I simply think that it's better to lynch vain first. I really do need sleep, so I'll revisit this tomorrow when I'm not dead tired; maybe I'm missing something. Hopefully both will have claimed by then, and we can move forwards from there. I think you still are missing something, but that's alright. Also, chaoser is almost certainly not mafia. It's my opinion that all the millers are probably dead, but that's not really that important. The reason I emphasize thinking this one through is because the lynch is important, and I feel that, while the choices have been blatantly scummy so far, we need to go with the one that gives us an absolute certain mafia kill. I can see clear, objective reasons to prefer one target over the other right now. If the claims change my opinion, so be it, but for now nard is a far better target to me than vain. The reason why I'm not explicitly stating my reasons for saying this is because I don't want my reasons to affect the way that nard/vain defend themselves. | ||
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Today we kill nard. After bum we consider pyo and Rayzor. #5 I'm still working on...lol. Some analysis to come soon when I'm back on my computer. | ||
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On August 28 2011 23:44 xtfftc wrote: Uh... Foolishness got blocked on Night 1, fake-claimed veteran, checked Nard Night 2, died Night 3. this is false, foolish never once claimed veteran | ||
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Because I believe BB/bumatlarge to be framer, and vain to be framed last night. Look at Bum's posts over the past day. Or heck, just filter him all the way. He accuses vain as soon as he knows a DT checked him last night without even thinking twice, and continues to subtly push vain's name. Yeah, I know that goes against our thoughts and my own analysis on vain, but bum is definitely mafia. Kill him tomorrow. This is also why I am way more confident in lynching nard than vain. With vain, the likelihood of there being a red herring is much higher. The only possibility for nard to be innocent is to be a noisy neighbor, and that's only possible in a very unlikely manner. Plus, his defense post suggests that he is scum. | ||
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On August 29 2011 04:38 bumatlarge wrote: You wanna switch back in? I think I've done a good job helping town BUT PEOPLE KEEP SAYING LYNCH BB, IM BUMATLARGE SHIT PEOPLE Actually, I find you scummier than BB was. BB was scummy, but you're actually on a whole new level. On August 29 2011 04:41 bumatlarge wrote: I assumed vain would be the good lynch to certify chaoser faster, but if hes gonna get shot tonight anyway it doesn't make a difference to me, both vain and nard are scum. I think you are reading a little too much into my posts WBG, not only are you calling me scum but now im a guaranteed framer lol? Who's gonna get shot tonight? Also, I want you to answer this: On August 28 2011 15:15 wherebugsgo wrote: Hey bumatlarge: What's your analysis of of Visceraeyes, Rayzor, and xt? I want to know your thoughts. since you so conveniently ignored it. | ||
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On August 29 2011 05:34 bumatlarge wrote: Viscera not so much rayzor and xt are pretty scummy. I think that's enough because thats how people analyze individuals around here, by saying they are scummy. That's enough because you don't want to leak information. Viscera is mafia as well. Rayzor and xt are probably clean. | ||
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On August 29 2011 06:37 bumatlarge wrote: Ok I get it now, lol. You're just trying to divert a lynch off vain on to me. You're not using any reasoning behind your arguments against me and instead derailing on to impertinent topics to make it look like you might actual be going somewhere with this. This won't work on me, you're trying to lie to the devil here. Nope, read my posts more carefully, scum. I'm diverting a lynch off vain onto nard, because I believe vain is green, and that you have been trying to set vain up to be lynched. If I were trying to divert a lynch off my scumbuddy onto you I would've actually voted you. You also didn't notice how I cautioned the other townies to reconsider vain, probably because you only notice things when you're under attack. You don't care about contributing to town, and therefore you're dreadfully unaware of what's going on. Also, I'm not lying either, there is nothing really to lie about. You aren't divulging information about what you think about visceraeyes, rayzor, and xt because you know that you'll have to fabricate some of that information. You are the one lying (particularly about viscera) by saying "not so much." Preknowledge sucks, eh? Anyway, I just wanted to respond to this briefly before posting my wall of text :p It's coming in a minute or two. | ||
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However, this is VERY important. Today's lynch will be nard, but all of this information will be VERY pertinent tomorrow. I urge you all to read this post carefully. I know it's long, but it needs to be done.Incoming are analyses of the following players: BUMATLARGE (framer) and VAIN (town) On August 29 2011 06:29 bumatlarge wrote: A claimed DT will get shot tonight apparently i have to be mafia to know that You kinda do have to be mafia to know who will be shot tonight, but that wasn't even my aim. The way you answer my posts and my provocations indicates that you are mafia to me. You don't substantiate anything, and you leave your post with this: On August 29 2011 05:34 bumatlarge wrote: I think that's enough because thats how people analyze individuals around here, by saying they are scummy. Without even a hint of inclination toward contributing to town efforts. You haven't done much this game (thanks to that replacement) so I find it really funny that you're so scummy. Let us all take a look, shall we? + Show Spoiler [bumfirstpost] + On August 27 2011 09:24 bumatlarge wrote: ![[image loading]](http://angryanimebitches.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/epic-entrance_o_gifsoup-com.gif) Having some trouble with my buddy who is on long island right now, with hurricane irene, I'll start reading through the thread, but for now I'll just defend BB's actions, as they are perfectly reasonable from where I'm sitting, and I foolishness' analysis has quite a few flaws. I'm hearing foolishness got shot as well? I'd like to hear or have a quote explaining that please. You already mislynched twice, so number 3 will probably seal the game. BB is acting exactly how he does as town every game, and iirc, foolishness is someone who likes to compare posting histories. Him leaving that out is either lazy or desperate. Can someone quote a mig analysis as well? So, what have I highlighted, and why? First: I'll just defend BB's actions...well, of course you will. Defending yourself isn't necessarily scummy, persay, but here you're not even defending yourself, you're defending BB's actions. You are a different person than BB. There is no reason to defend BB so much, as you can establish yourself as a townie by actually contributing. I highlighted the mislynch part because it will come into play later in my post. I highlighted the last sentence, about the Mig analysis, because it is indirectly contradicted later. (and then reaffirmed after that, by a suggestion that you haven't read the thread) Basically this question is asking for help in reading the thread, later you say you've read the thread, and even later than that you say you haven't. Finally, the last part of the second sentence is really funny: Foolishness's analysis has quite a few flaws. If it has "quite a few" of them, why were none of them listed? + Show Spoiler [3rdpost[/spoiler] + On August 27 2011 11:09 bumatlarge wrote: I think that's a fairly useless accusation you are bringing up about BB restating what people are saying to, but then calling him out on not explaining his votes. I find it hard to believe that massive xffct thing wasn't his own. I don't think repetition is a conclusive method in finding scum. You don't think that's a bit shallow? Centering your analysis around a concept can be fairly damning. I have serious doubts that you're trap was as concrete as you make it out to be. Not referring to someone can lead to huge oversights, and that's exactly what happened to BB. You're idea was convoluted and distracting and a massive failure. I have doubts about Mig, if "anything I read... I just see mafia in him" is your excuse, and you're trusting other people's opinions rather then forming real reasons yourself. Why is foolishness not being more heavily considered? If I was mafia, I would have doublestacked him night 2, because he would be a dangerous townie to go against. I don't believe the RB was used night 1, and I don't think he took a hit. His bullshit ways of finding scum do not produce results, as I can see first hand. It's a little bit of bad luck that I popped into these shoes foolishness, because you were certainly expecting an easy bandwagon onto BB through your bullshit connections when there is nothing concrete on BB AT ALL. You say that right here yourself. ##Vote Foolishness I guarantee I am right. Please read through this thread like I have done and this becomes perfectly clear. Look at the bolded text. It is completely fluff. It also reeks of someone who has either a.) not read the thread, b.) not comprehended what he has actually read, or c.) is intentionally being misleading. Seeing as bum, from what I understand, is a pretty decent player, the red highlight at the end should make it clear which of those options is the correct one. + Show Spoiler [hint] + IT'S C BITCHES + Show Spoiler [alternate] + Although, I suppose, it's not inaccurate to say that it could be a combination of all of them. It's entirely possible that the post is a complete fabrication and that bum didn't actually read through the thread, just claimed to do so. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised with that either. After a lil back and forth with foolishness about whether BB's analysis of xt was genuine (I call bs) there's this: On August 27 2011 11:52 bumatlarge wrote: Oh well fuck me, fine then foolishness Im sorry lol I'll read the thread closer. Thought I specifically checked for that. It's still faulty reasoning. At least I have a whole day to look more into everything.SUP APOLOGY In red = well I'll read thread more carefully (aka fake my arguments better) and oh btw it's still illogical. Wait what? You claim everyone else is throwing around unsubstantiated accusations, yet you're doing it yourself? To reiterate, you said this: On August 29 2011 05:34 bumatlarge wrote: I think that's enough because thats how people analyze individuals around here, by saying they are scummy. But it's okay for you to do pretty much the same thing? ... On August 28 2011 01:20 bumatlarge wrote: I think I've thoroughly defended myself and BB's actions. Foolishness said himself that BB was mostly guilty through connections, which I find incredibly faulty, and a majority of his analysis was based on BB's lack of original opinions and reasoning for what he did. I don't believe that was true at all, and I especially felt BB's xttc analysis was very much his own and I saw multiple points that I did not see posted by people foolishness said he copied. Why I am still under heavy consideration is beyond me. I'll address the suspects listed one by one so you can have my opinion, and you can't blame me for restating because I've barely read the thread! jk The sentence that's omitted after the red italics, that bum was thinking: "so stop correctly guessing I'm scum, damn it" Bolded is a lie, Foolish's main argument was NOT the connections. + Show Spoiler [Foolishsummary] + On August 25 2011 10:09 Foolishness wrote: 1) BrownBear is mafia 2) BrownBear's vote posts are just restating already said arguments. He's never voiced his own opinion. Furthermore he never pushes who he's voting for. He makes his vote post, then spams one liners. 3) BrownBear has been extremely dodging and defense. He flat out refuses to respond to Palmar even with Palmar writes something good. He is very insistent that he is innocent. 4) BrownBear has refused to say anything with regards to Mig (until just now). If he was town he would be sure to voice his opinion on one of the top lynch candidates. He does not care about the town and this is evident because he has ignored the case against Mig. 5) If Mig is mafia, then BrownBear (and a few others) implicitly defended him by purposely switching town focus onto xtfftc (and then Hiro). They did this by not sharing their opinions about Mig and instead wrote paragraphs about why xtfftc (or Hiro) should have been lynched. I will still advocate that Mig should be the next lynch. But if you are too put off by his defense then BrownBear must die. Foolish's main arguments were that BB was being dodgy and defensive, and that his vote posts have been pure restatements of existing arguments. However, I disagree with his analysis of the connections, too, just like you, bum! The difference is that I find merit in his other arguments, and I'm not overly focused on WHAT Foolish was saying. You disagree with one of his points=foolish automatically wrong about BB (who you replaced). In fact, he's SO wrong he becomes mafia (wtf?). You recant your vote on foolish once you're called out, and you basically admit to not reading properly. Well, kind of, since you could've read it all anyway and just lied. Anyway, to clarify what I said about disagreeing with Foolish's arguments about BB's connections to other people: I think his analysis of the Mig-BB connection was good. However, I disagree with some of the other people he listed in his large BB analysis post. A bunch of people were listed there that I'm very strongly sure are town. Also, BB's "analysis" of xt was mostly fluff and regurgitated arguments from Curu and myself. Curu, IIRC, was the one who first put up something decent on xt. So NO, it was not original at all. Last half of that quote I showed earlier: On August 28 2011 01:20 bumatlarge wrote: Why I am still under heavy consideration is beyond me. I'll address the suspects listed one by one so you can have my opinion, and you can't blame me for restating because I've barely read the thread! jk[ Excuse. Straight up excuse. Firstly, you're under heavy consideration because the guy you replaced was doing things in ways that really only mafia would do. Part in red=direct contradiction to this: On August 27 2011 09:24 bumatlarge wrote: I guarantee I am right. Please read through this thread like I have done and this becomes perfectly clear. So, you've read the thread, but not read the thread? The jk is added there just to absolve yourself of responsibility. Basically, you're trying to throw attention off yourself. You're not even defending yourself anymore (because clearly that didn't work, your defense was shitty) so you tried to absolve responsibility and slip under the radar. It kinda worked. For a bit. On August 28 2011 12:56 bumatlarge wrote: Pretty silly chaser, i think we would have been fine with just going with foolishness on nard, but I highly doubt you are lying about your check. We should check Vains history to match up with chaosers claim, and by we I mean me. For now my votes going on him. I trust chaoser is telling the truth, and he's a strong town read. ##vote vain This one set off alarm bells. "We would've been fine with going with foolishness on nard...but you know what, I'll vote for vain anyway." Also, you know how bum knows chaoser's not lying about that guilty check? Cause he's the freaking framer and he framed vain last night. Finally, the vote is preceded by: "for now." Why "for now"? Because you know that you'll probably have to switch your vote off vain when he doesn't become a serious lynch candidate anymore? Because you already know vain is probably clean? Because you think people might begin suspecting chaoser, and then you can set him up to be lynched when vain flips green? Chaoser is a DT, no doubt, but this one by bum was really strange to me because of the certainty, the trust, and the future insight that were all crammed into this seemingly innocent post. His votechange on nard confirmed to me that he was scum, and it confirmed why he was being extra cautious by adding that "for now" to his vote on vain. On August 28 2011 12:59 bumatlarge wrote: Nard is a great vig hit, but we delaying chaosers claim isn't smart this late in the game. What? Where's the reasoning? Where's the distinction? What makes chaoser's claim better than foolish's? Why not go with a CONFIRMED WATCHER over someone who merely CLAIMED DT? This post raises so many questions despite being one line. And note, it's the LACK of information that does it. A townsperson would at least give some information as to their thoughtprocess. Instead, bum seems to be focused on vain while brushing off nard as "oh yeah let the vig deal with him, we town should be lynching others" On August 29 2011 02:03 bumatlarge wrote: Kurumi backstabbed by his polish writing habits! I'm feeling pretty good about this game, even if people are still making me out to be scum. Nard and vain are certainly scum, and then we would only need one more to bring mafia KP to 1. Voting nard for majority purposes. OH WHAT THE EFF Let me reiterate: On August 29 2011 02:03 bumatlarge wrote: Voting nard for majority purposes. Again, NO REASON. True bandwagoning here, he even admits it. Why the sudden change of heart from vain to nard? Oh, right, so you don't appear suspicious when no one else is voting vain. Why do you not want to appear suspicious? Cause you're scum. A bandwagoning scum. A bandwagoning framer scum, who wants to lynch vain because he framed him last night and knows chaoser checked him, but is afraid of being suspicious because no one else is actually trying to lynch vain today. On August 29 2011 04:38 bumatlarge wrote: You wanna switch back in? I think I've done a good job helping town BUT PEOPLE KEEP SAYING LYNCH BB, IM BUMATLARGE SHIT PEOPLE Ah what? NO TOWN CRED FOR YOU. You haven't contributed jack, son. 1.) you accused foolish, a pretty much confirmed town, for being mafia just based on the fact that he was accusing you/BB of being scum. This was probably based on the fact that Foolish's posts came across with a feeling of uncertainty that you felt you could take advantage of. In fact, Foolish admitted to doubting his own reads, something I pointed out yesterday. (yesterday? I think it was, at least) Mafia POUNCE on uncertainty. They want to capitalize on mistakes. This is, of course, why Sevryn and hiro were lynched. All of us thought they were scummy, and mafia blended in because they capitalized on their mistakes. A public feeling of uncertainty can bring out mistakes from townies. 2.) you have continued BB's trend of bandwagoning/restating other people's reasons to vote. 3.) you've started your own trend of posting with almost no content whatsoever, or at least content that is highly questionable about your willingness to contribute information. 4.) you've contradicted yourself more than once in a manner that is common to mafia. On August 29 2011 04:41 bumatlarge wrote: I assumed vain would be the good lynch to certify chaoser faster, but if hes gonna get shot tonight anyway it doesn't make a difference to me, both vain and nard are scum. Translation here: "I assumed that we could lynch vain, who I framed, so that he would flip green. Then we could lynch chaoser tomorrow, and because I'm mafia I know he'd flip blue. During the night we'd kill two other townies in the case vain gets lynched. However, I don't give a shit because I know they're both town, so we can lynch nard instead of vain, chaoser will die tonight in this case and then we do a mislynch anyway tomorrow by lynching vain." Remember, this is the same guy that said one mislynch will probably result in a mafia win. Mafia agenda right now is to forge a link between chaoser and vain, so that if we lynch vain today, he flips green and chaoser can potentially be lynched tomorrow by leaving him alive during the night. At the very least, in the case vain is lynched today, chaoser would be a huge case tomorrow. They know chaoser is dead anyway, so I'm pretty sure they're trying to find a use for him and use their KP on other people and effectively hijack our lynch. We cannot let this happen; we need to keep vain alive until we've exhausted our other mafia possibilities. There ARE better leads right now. We kill nard today, then scumatlarge. We'll (hopefully) get some more information by the night actions. Now, some clarification on vain, since there are other reasons I believe him to be framed. Yes, I have done pretty much a complete 180 on him. For the most part, I suspected him because he was lurking so hard, and he made a few "scummy" posts. In retrospect, I realized that I had never actually built up a case against him, and I had never actually seriously analyzed his posts. That was a mistake, and I am writing this analysis now to rectify that mistake and clarify my opinions on vain: + Show Spoiler [vainanalysis] + On August 23 2011 04:22 Vain wrote: wtf, you prefer me but lets just go for xtffc. Sounds logic. Now when its not xtffc you can always say"oh jeah i liked vain better" very convenient It is my belief that a mafia would not react to an accusation in this manner. Vain is being fairly confrontational here, and mafia don't generally defend themselves by putting themselves out like this. His defense is pretty logical, too, as supersoft did not have a very good reason at all for voting vain. On August 23 2011 06:18 Vain wrote: because i'm stupid and didn't want to no-lynch. Also it was like 3am in the morning:@ Both of these posts are pretty straight to the point and honest. This doesn't say much yet, but when I asked him questions again to clarify his opinions, and to see what he would say when probed for reasons, he responded with this: On August 23 2011 06:40 Vain wrote: You sure love lists. Ok here it goes. 1: don't you see his posts are revolving around nothing at all? He's posting and saying nothing at the same time. Also withholding his vote so he doesn't have to elaborate that much in case of a switch. 2: Same as with nards with the vote witholding. and posts like this set me off a bit He is basically saying he suspects 2 people and then just after that he wants us to don't mind him:\ He is pointing out that he wants to hear more but asks no questions. 3: nard is contradictive. He wanted to get sure we got a lynch but still voted brownbear, wtf? 4: didn't check all the posting history's yet 5: i'm not lurkin now, am i? also i didnt' really thought i had something to add so i refrained from posting what i guess i shouldn't have done Yes, I really did just highlight in green, almost his entire post. Why? Well, first he takes a slight stab at me by saying, "you sure love lists." That's not much, but would mafia respond like that? I doubt it. Then, he contributes! He establishes firm reasons for believing nard to be scum. He says that nard has voted and said things without actually saying anything of substance. He says that nard has been contradictive (and provides clear evidence, via quote!) i.e. nard wants a lynch but votes BB. He's honest; he admits he hasn't read all the post histories, so he's hesitant to throw names around. Finally, he straight up says, "I'm not lurking now, am I?" and adds that he probably made a mistake, but without the air of apology that is often a theme of mafia posts. I think we (and me too) focused a little too much on vain's inactivity and not enough on the manner of his posts. Vain's style of posting suggests to me that he is a townie. On August 24 2011 05:37 Vain wrote: I filtered him a while ago. He just wen't afk most of this day and put a shitty vote on severyn. Anywhays i don't think we should discuss him or any lurkers because we won't come any further. He's in my opinion a better vigi target than discuss all his, 6? posts that he has. By the way, i can't get over the feeling that hiro was pushing an agenda. It wasn't just the idea that was bad. The arguments were sloppy either. 50/50 chance its a mafia? good way to cover your ass when it turns out he was a detective. This is in my opinion way more convincing than lynching xtfftc, nard or mig. Again, he's actually contributing here. His post is short, but it has contribution. Important parts that are beneficial to town are highlighted in green: He provides what he knows about Lucidity in a succinct manner, and refocuses town attention away from him because he's a lurker. Good points here. Finally, provides good reasons with respect to HOW hiro posted in order to justify his vote for hiro. He didn't restate other people. He had his own opinion, despite the fact that it wasn't exhaustive, he contributed something. Now, the caveat is that, after that, vain has done nothing. I'm inclined to believe that he has kinda forgotten about this game. He needs to post more, there is no doubt about that. HOWEVER; the thing to keep in mind about this is that an inactive person who has been accused several times by town players of being mafia is a GREAT choice for mafia to frame, and to focus on for a potential mislynch. This is because the mafia players can force a mislynch on said suspected townie without actually fabricating anything. It's very easy to convince people to lynch someone who already appears scummy to everyone, rather than fabricating a case or diverting a lynch on an actual mafia member. The icing on the cake is the framing ability that confounds DTs and causes "assurance" among the town with respect to the criminality of the suspected player. So here, my conclusions: Nard is the best target today, he is mafia. Bumatlarge is the framer Visceraeyes is probably mafia. Filter his posts, and also look at how bum responded about him http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254174&user=117978¤tpage=3 + Show Spoiler [other2mafia] + If I had to guess the last two right now, I'd guess Kurumi and Rayzor, but it's certainly possible that one of them is not. Kurumi's claim was really strange to me, and that's why he's now on my suspect list, and Navillus+Pyo have done nothing, so it's probably two of these four: Pyo, Rayzor, Kurumi, Navillus. ?? I've had a slight change of heart about Rayzor but I am reluctant to doubt my initial reads on him. I want everyone's opinions on these four players. Vain is almost certainly green, and was framed last night by bum Chaoser is almost certainly DT and it is well-known that he will be dead tomorrow unless he can be saved. If we lynch nard and chaoser doesn't die tonight then a slight tweak may be necessary. This I will not explain until morning tomorrow because, if I say it, it could influence who mafia choose to kill. If anything about this is unclear to any of you, please let me know. In fact, I expect a lot to be unclear, because a lot has changed from my assessments yesterday. I do believe that I was wrong/inaccurate on several levels yesterday. If your name is not in the above list, I think you are most definitely town. Please contribute by providing your opinions. AGAIN, I WANT OPINIONS FROM EVERYONE ON THESE FOUR PLAYERS: Pyo, Rayzor, Kurumi, Navillus. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 29 2011 09:55 bumatlarge wrote: As far as I could see BB was on the pedestal with mig for hanging, and it would be incredibly bad if we didn't lynch mig at that point. Defending BB was practically my purpose coming into the game, and it paid off. 1 mafia dead and we haven't lost yet. LOLLL This is total, utter bullshit. YOU'RE trying to claim credit for Mig's lynch? YOU? LOOOL. You're the one who wanted to lynch Foolishness! You did nothing to push Mig's lynch! So, you were scared of getting hung, so you defended yourself, and that somehow awards you credit for Mig's lynch, which was pushed forward primarily by chaoser and Foolishness? What the? You were never as serious a lynch target as Mig that day! It was clearly obvious that Mig had avoided lynch two days in a row, and we had very strong leads on him. It has nothing to do with your ability to defend yourself, which, honestly, is pretty bad. On August 29 2011 09:55 bumatlarge wrote: The fact that you can derive a read from a person saying a claimed DT will get shot shows everyone exactly what your underlying goal is here. Nard is lynched, mafia team has 4 people, vain gets lynched its down to 3, which is a dangerous number to sit at for mafia, as the difference between 2kp and 1kp is drastic. The longer that mafia has 3 players the more likely they can beat us. If this is what it will come down to we'll have an easier time then I thought rooting the rest of you out. You're misconstruing my argument here (as is to be expected.) and then somehow using that to accuse me of being scum. I have no mafia agenda. I am not mafia. I encourage you all to filter me. I'll just have to do my best to keep you from wasting our time that could be spent hunting scum. Also like I said earlier, it's not important WHAT you said (obviously a claimed DT will get shot the night after he claims) but HOW you said it. In fact, I didn't care very much at all about the WHAT in your posts. I cared about how you came across in replying to me. Your reply to my question about your thoughts on Viscera, Rayzor, and xt was important to me because I put in someone I definitely think is mafia (viscera) someone I think is possibly either or (Rayzor) and someone I think is probably not, despite the fact that he has received attention before (xt). The way you replied lumped Rayzor and xt together and separated viscera. I encourage everyone to reread bum's reply, it's not long at all: On August 29 2011 05:34 bumatlarge wrote: Viscera not so much rayzor and xt are pretty scummy. I think that's enough because thats how people analyze individuals around here, by saying they are scummy. So bum is focused on the WHAT, as shown by his accusation of me having a "goal" (with the implication that my goal is not town-aligned). I'm focusing on the HOW. Bum gives a passing remark about each of the three players, without providing any sort of useful analysis. I believe that he is soft defending viscera, though, and the reason I included viscera is because I had suspicions about viscera from earlier. The fact that he is including no information whatsoever when asked for his opinion is highly suggestive that he is mafia. As for viscera, I will be putting up reasons for why I think he's mafia a bit later today. It primarily has to do with the way he has voted and defended certain potential lynch targets. I'll give my own analysis of you, because this isn't OMGUS, this is a last ditch effort to clinch the game, that much is clear to me. LOL. So it isn't OMGUS, but I'm scum? Right dude, you've got me, definitely not OMGUS. On August 29 2011 09:56 bumatlarge wrote: Hey I've done it before to our very own host here, and have been spot on. Ask him yourself. What, accused him of being mafia without actually reading properly? You might be a good player, but honestly you aren't playing very well right now. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 29 2011 11:07 bumatlarge wrote: Who keeps telling you I'm a good player lol? lol I don't remember who, someone mentioned it. I also looked at some of your past games to see how you play. You actually contribute as town, and this game you've contributed nothing. Examples=BC's AA and PTP2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240299&user=31777 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=245008&user=31777 Particularly in PTP2, you were lynched, but before getting lynched you contributed enough to town to win the game (from what I read of your posts, anyway) after your death. You had a persona somewhat similar to the one you have now in Personality mafia, although I guess personality mafia's a little weird cause you guys all had different post restrictions. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252145&user=31777 | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 29 2011 16:43 Barundar wrote: You haven't even considered that Nard could simply have a more powerful scum role than Vain, such as roleblocker, making it preferable for mafia to lose Vain first. As town you don't know scums intentions, so don't bother WIFOM'ing yourself into an endless line of conspiracy theories. If you want to be productive you can start discussing what target to go after once Nard and Vain are dead. Personally I'm the most certain of Bumatlarge being scum, simply because BB post an analysis of xttffc, without commenting on mig at all, and afterwards completely ignored Mig posting his DB analysis, despite popping into the thread to drop a comment to Foolishness. Mig didn't bother yelling at him either to consider his case. Bum saying that BB's actions makes perfect sense without even reading the thread doesn't do much to change this opinion. After bum I'm the most suspicious of Pyo for hardcore lurking. For the last scum I'm a bit uncertain: Kurumi did the capitalized Y in his claim, making me suspicious about him. I had him as town before though, simply because I think Palmar dieing was detrimental to Mig's push for chaos13 the day he got lynched, and because a scum vigi wouldn't feel the need to claim that he shot a townie. RayzorFlash, because of Mig's chaoser push day 1 when he became a lynch target, and a couple of really bad posts. Other mild suspects includes: Errandorr because I simply can't read him. He seem to not have been afraid to give his opinions though, making me lean town on him. Navillus for lurking hard after starting out well day 1. Could have been simply scared away by the spam though. No, actually, if we want to be productive we can't kill vain, especially not tomorrow. We kill nard today, and Bum tomorrow. That will give us sufficient information to find the remaining 3 mafia and lynch them. Also, I did consider that vain could be a regular goon but that doesn't add up to me. Even if vain is actually just a goon we still should kill bum before vain. Of the remaining mafia, I agree that Pyo is a top suspect, but also Viscera. My analysis of viscera will come after I get out of class today-it's not complicated. #6 is still a bit far away. So, we can worry about the last 1/2 mafia after we lynch nard and bum. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Supersoft, and Palmar if you're reading this, I'm pretty sure I understand how you guys felt now :p Visceraeyes: The main thing with viscera is that he pretty much never considered any of the people we now know are almost certainly mafia (Mig, nard, BB/bum) until Mig's lynch was certain, he soft defended all 3, and he's been rather inactive. No one has really voiced many opinions on him, but when I asked bum about viscera he replied with "not so much." ...? Also, I'm leaning scum on viscera, as in we should investigate him tonight and tomorrow in preparation for who to lynch after lynching bum tomorrow. Today nard is a for sure, there isn't anything to discuss there, so it's time to move on. Between bum and vain I obviously prefer bum, and then the rest are kinda iffy, but I have my suspicions of viscera/pyo/rayzor/kurumi. I should also add that, as Foolish mentioned when he was alive, the bigger picture here is what's important. Individually, some of these posts don't really telegraph any intentions. One of VE's first posts: On August 22 2011 23:56 VisceraEyes wrote: We'll start here guys. Palmar is SCUM. His case against BrownBear can be summed up in 2 lines. 1) Palmar feels BB's reaction to Palmar's scummy-ass tunneling is...scummy. 2) He sees BB's accusation and subsequent vote on JeeJee as diversionary. But look at the size of that post! Just look at it! Know why it's that size? Because everything he's posted before here has been 1 line throwing suspicion around and NOW he has to actually look like he's scumhunting! But read it...he's not. He's saying the same thing he's BEEN saying, only throws a quote or two in there to make it look like scumhunting. I haven't found BB OR DB to be particularly pro- or anti-town, but Palmar for some reason claims his scumhunting has been 'the best' in the game so far, and that he's 'more town than anyone' this game. He's manipulating everyone, and it's time it's over. He escaped lynch yesterday with this nonsense...the fact that there are those of you who believe him is unsettling. But Palmar is scum, and he needs to hang. I'm voting for him. In VE's first post he attempted to discredit Palmar's vote on BB as being devoid of reason. Now, I find nothing wrong with VE's tunneling of Palmar, just as I found nothing wrong with Palmar's tunneling of DB (it was just a wee bit strange.) All of us had suspicions about Palmar because his methods were strange to us, but I don't think any of us had objective reasons for claiming that Palmar was mafia. I at least, accused Palmar of being scum (along with supersoft) when I was raging over the fact that hiro died and the two of them were acting like it was really obvious that sev+hiro were town and that we were all stupid. Acting on my emotions, I was being retarded, and I realized that a couple hours later, when I had calmed down. Here, though, Viscera seemed to be trying to discredit Palmar despite the fact that his argument against BB was very good. Palmar's analysis of BB is, indeed, what made me first suspicious of him. I never really thought much about Viscera's post here because, by itself, it's almost meaningless. Next quote, I've broken it in two. On August 23 2011 00:11 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah, I'm pretty sure how I play the game isn't determined on others. ANYWAY, also notice how with his little 'experiment' he found TWO people suspicious. BrownBear AND Sevyrn...but when it came down to lynch time, where did Palmar's vote end up? Did it end up on the person who he actually THOUGHT was 'suspicious'? Well, YES. See, his post made it clear that while he found Sevyrn suspicious, he found BB MORE suspicious. I don't really understand how this was meant to discredit Palmar, because it just gave more merit to his argument. It seems to me like Viscera was attempting to paint Palmar as scum. Read through though; there's nothing at all scummy about wanting to vote who you think is scum. That's just good town play. Also, Palmar famously posted that he thought the chances of Sevryn flipping scum were 0.2%. So no, he did not believe that Sevryn was scummy; that's a blatant lie. On August 23 2011 00:11 VisceraEyes wrote: My guess? He was setting up today's lynch by leaving his vote on BB. Notice it's there again today. He didn't care who got lynched in reality because no one was voting for scum (it's my opinion that Rayzor is town, so far.) And that way, he's not on the wrong side of the lynch WHEN Sev flipped scum! Man, for as bad as his play has been, he's playing pretty well. *rolls eyes emphatically* His vote was on BB because he believed BB was scum...again, scummy how? I mean, I ignored Palmar during day 1 and day 2 just because it was really fucking annoying to read through his spam. I had a strong town read on him up until he began going a little weird after hiro's death. Despite that, I thought that his analysis and vote were both genuine. (well, except for that 2-3 hour period where I wanted to do nothing but kill both super and palmar lol) On August 23 2011 05:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Foolish, I'm concerned about your vote here. If you're not sure what to make of a night's events, why in the hell would you vote for someone that is in your opinion involved? I reread Mig's posts (like you, it was short reading) and he hasn't done anything overtly scummy so far...there are a LOT of scummy targets out here, why Mig? Everyone is voting based on YOUR logic, I'd like you to state ALL of the reasons you think Mig is the best lynch if you please. This is one of the more important posts. This is a soft defend of Mig. Goes well with the following: On August 23 2011 06:26 VisceraEyes wrote: Can you maybe rewind and replay that post, only start it with "Let's say Rayzor is town" please? See where that leads you? This whole post is nothing but WIFOM. This isn't WIFOM. Read it carefully and you'll see that it's not. VE is attempting to discredit Foolish here, when Foolish has a very good post and very reasonable logic. Again, another soft-defend of Mig (and also likely Rayzor) One of the conclusions that I drew very recently upon rereading this post by VE and the quoted post from Foolish is that, since Mig was mafia, only one of Rayzor/vain can be mafia. On August 23 2011 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote: Guys, that's entirely beside the point. Meta is all you people listen to. METAMETAMETA. I bring up one post about meta and NOW you're scumhunting. NOW you're looking for contradictions in peoples' posts. [sarcasm]Brilliant. I'm certainly more trusting of you now...[/sarcasm] This seemed to me like a strong jab at Foolishness/chaoser and their use of meta to pin Mig. Even in context the post doesn't make much sense, though. On August 23 2011 09:08 VisceraEyes wrote: Foolishness, hiro protagonist, Palmar, xtfftc. BOOM Headshot. Discuss. All four town, just subjectively "scummy" enough that day to be good potential lynches for mafia. We all ended up bandwagoning hiro, so mafia agenda was achieved. On August 23 2011 11:20 VisceraEyes wrote: My scum-list is long. And hard. His response to my post asking for people's opinions. Basically saying he's a.) unwilling to put in the work to examine his suspects b.) putting up an excuse/reason not to post analysis (i.e. he'd have to fabricate it.) It seems, in context of all his other posts, like a reluctance to contribute. On August 23 2011 09:23 VisceraEyes wrote: I see it Mig, but I feel like most everyone you just listed is town... Soft defend of Mig there, made in response to Mig's post that "no one was defending him" On August 25 2011 13:45 VisceraEyes wrote: I read this in its entirety. I will gladly lynch either one of Mig or BB. Whoever town thinks is most scummy. I think of the two it's BB. I can't wrap my head around Mig yet...going back to reread the cases against him again. As I recall they were heavily based on meta. But unfortunately I admittedly hardly ever return to previous games to check the validity of meta statements unless I was in the game personally. Call it an investment of time I'm not willing to make in most cases. I'm going to do so and return further informed. This is another very important post, again in context of all the others. VE uses a false dichotomy to insinuate that only one of BB/Mig can be mafia. He then suggests a willingness to bandwagon (perhaps to stay under the radar) by saying that he'll simply vote for whoever the town thinks is mafia. Well...why not vote for who you think is scum? He suspects BB, but then never actually votes him. He also never gives a reason for suspecting BB, despite having tunneled Palmar forever and a half for that exact reason. That's about it, which brings me to my last point: like nard, Pyo, and whoever remain of mafia (other than bum) VE has been really lurkery. He posts very little and contributes very little. On its own it doesn't really mean much, but in combination with all the little tiny things, I think it's important to keep in mind. Again, I'm leaning mafia on VE; I'm fairly confident of my read, but I'm not certain. I'm not certain he's mafia like I'm certain nard and bum are. Clarifications coming up. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On August 29 2011 16:43 Barundar wrote: Wherebugsgo, you are putting way too much into the vote of a suspect. We have a red check from a sane DT, that alone is reason enough to lynch Vain, regardless of where others put their vote. Smart scum knows that newbies pay a lot of attention to other suspects actions, and as scum I've successfully scared off people from voting on my scumbuddy, simply by being suspicious and voting with shady enough reasons. If the quotes you have listed would have hinted at DT checking Vain the night before chaoser's claim, there might have been something to your framer theory, but now it's just null. I value your opinion, but I think this is irrelevant to my argument about bum's posting behavior. If you have a problem with my notion that bum is the framer that's fine, I expected that to be really controversial. In fact, if people started believing it I'd be really freaking shocked. Just remember that I care about the manner of posts, not necessarily all of their content. Finally, it was obvious to all of us that vain has been a suspect for a long time. In fact, it hasn't even been that long since I myself was convinced that he was mafia. The thing is, I'm not anymore, and I'm pretty sure I'm alone in that department (which is fine with me, I have my reasons for believing he is innocent.) However, can we actually come up with objective reasons why vain is mafia? I tried, and when I tried writing analysis on vain I realized that most of my reasons would just be "this sounds scummy." This is the same reason I never wrote analysis on Palmar and super, and accepted that they were town. This is the same reason I backtracked on xt following his defense, and because of hiro's and sevryn's lynch on the subjective basis that they were scummy, I have tried to learn the lesson of, just because someone "appears" scummy doesn't mean they are. There needs to be an established intent, and I don't think you can actually establish a town OR mafia intent with vain. He's just full of dumbtells, not scumtells. On August 29 2011 16:43 Barundar wrote: If you want to be productive you can start discussing what target to go after once Nard and Vain are dead. Personally I'm the most certain of Bumatlarge being scum, simply because BB post an analysis of xttffc, without commenting on mig at all, and afterwards completely ignored Mig posting his DB analysis, despite popping into the thread to drop a comment to Foolishness. Mig didn't bother yelling at him either to consider his case. Bum saying that BB's actions makes perfect sense without even reading the thread doesn't do much to change this opinion. If any of these players flip town we're fucked. Since you and a lot of the rest of us are almost certain bum is mafia, let's kill him tomorrow instead of vain. Remember that only two people have ever defended vain; myself, and foolish. Mafia haven't even soft defended him. This is NOT true of either Mig, nard, or bum, which we can agree have been among our best suspects. Obviously Mig was scum, nard will flip red, and bum I'll give near certainty. On August 29 2011 16:43 Barundar wrote: After bum I'm the most suspicious of Pyo for hardcore lurking. For the last scum I'm a bit uncertain: Kurumi did the capitalized Y in his claim, making me suspicious about him. I had him as town before though, simply because I think Palmar dieing was detrimental to Mig's push for chaos13 the day he got lynched, and because a scum vigi wouldn't feel the need to claim that he shot a townie. RayzorFlash, because of Mig's chaoser push day 1 when he became a lynch target, and a couple of really bad posts. Other mild suspects includes: Errandorr because I simply can't read him. He seem to not have been afraid to give his opinions though, making me lean town on him. Navillus for lurking hard after starting out well day 1. Could have been simply scared away by the spam though. Agreed with almost everything here, except that I will say that I have strong town read on Errandor, and a back and forth read on Navillus. Also, since I think vain is not scum I'm fairly certain the 3 mafia can be found within these five: Rayzor, Kurumi, Pyo, Viscera, Navillus. I remember that people said that Navillus is probably town, and I'm willing to believe that. If that's true (we can confirm it over the next couple days) then we have 3 mafia among 4 people. On August 29 2011 23:44 Vain wrote: There, But i could have gotten this from anyone so it doesn't really say anything. Or be creative like kurumi:p + Show Spoiler + Liquidite - Welcome to TL Mafia XLIV you are Lance, the local professional starcraft 2 player, your user name is Legion, and you are a member of the well reputed team IM, as IMLegion, you have no special powers, however you will use your tactical genius and gosu micro to vote for scum and bring down the mafia. i would but i won't because i gotta eat & run. Be back in 3 hours though[/QUOTE] Post your reads, you're not helping anyone with this kind of defense, and especially not yourself. On August 30 2011 01:31 chaoser wrote: Right now you're completely being irrational. We have no idea what the mafia's motives are and we have no real way of figuring it out. You're approaching the entire situation already assuming bumatlarge is mafia and then trying to fit everything around it. You went so far as to throw away your own (very valid I might add) opinions on vain. You're looking at everything with bum-tinted-glasses and this is exactly what foolishness DIDN'T want to do. I value your opinion as well, but I respectfully disagree. I don't have a problem with you not being able to see what I see, but my argument as to why bumatlarge is not me assuming he's mafia. I'm screaming that he's the framer so that we don't make a huge mistake and fuck up by lynching vain, today OR tomorrow. We need to lynch bumatlarge, framer or not he's going to flip red. And yes, I did pretty much throw my opinions on vain out the window, and there they will remain until we've lynched bum tomorrow. Sure, Foolishness said that. I admit that I have a bias against bum. However, Foolishness also said that he didn't think vain was mafia as recently as yesterday. The fact that he said that right before he died gave me pause and I thought pretty hard about it. A certain series of events almost entirely centered on page 92, that I thought about for a bit, led me to agree with Foolish's conclusion about vain. Bum's vote on vain confirmed it to me. Foolish quotes: On August 27 2011 13:18 Foolishness wrote: That was before I was really gunning for Mig though. I'm not ruling him out yet, I just think we have better targets at the moment. He's definitely someone to keep an eye on. On August 28 2011 10:55 Foolishness wrote: nard is 100% mafia. If I die it will be instantly clear how I know this information. Yes it's 100%. I wanted to bring this information up yesterday but the timing never came, especially after Mig claimed. It should be clear why I had everyone write up what they thought about those 3 people. Make sure to look at the people who didn't respond to that (there are a few who did, and they are all on my suspect list). Kill nard today so that the mafia will have their KP reduced. Mafia list: nard, BrownBear, Barundar, Pyo, RayzorFlash. If one of those flip green then Erandorr. Note that vain is not in that list. Even, he says, if one flips green, he thinks it's Erandor. IMO, Barundar would flip green, so cross him out, and I think Erandorr would flip green to. I replaced Barundar with Viscera. On August 30 2011 01:31 chaoser wrote: You need to step back and re-approach the situation. What are you takes on supersoft, xtfftc, and Pyo? Supersoft is town. I thought that, at a moment where I was raging pretty hard, that Palmar and supersoft were scumbuddies for the way they were playing off each other and insisting that it was obvious hiro and sev were town etc. etc. Then I calmed down a bit, reread their posts and saw nothing objectively scummy. Of course, I felt really stupid after, (sorry super hahaha) and even moreso when mafia killed Palmar. xt, again, one of those players I used to suspect, I think he's clean as well. His defense of himself appeared fairly genuine to me and it didn't seem like he was trying to hide any information from the town. He doesn't post much, but he puts himself out there confidently, like a townie would do. Pyo is lurking pretty hard. I've thought he could be mafia for a while. I'm pretty certain he's mafia, and I called him out (if I remember correctly) a couple times to provoke him into posting. Clearly that didn't work. I can't divine the future but I'd say he's my top choice to lynch after bum. On August 30 2011 02:12 bumatlarge wrote: LOL I was town in personality, I got framed by the mafia so that I popped scum. Look at the end game posts. My mistake, I see that now. I guess I don't really have any meta to compare you to, then :p On August 30 2011 02:12 Lucidity wrote: I thought I was the only one seeing this shit. wherebugsgo decides X is mafia/town, and then takes every post that player has made and turns it into pro-scum/pro-town, whichever serves his preconceived notions. You don't decide a player's alignment and then build a case around that, you do it the other way around. Sometimes it's hard to look at things objectively when you go into an analysis thinking someone is scum (I was going to post a "supersoft is scum" analysis and while rereading all his posts realised that he wasn't as confirmed scum as I thought going into the analysis), but all your TL;DR analyses read like tunneling/scum painting to me. :\ Sorry, what? Like I told Barundar and chaoser, I value your opinion and I'm completely fine if you disagree with my methods or my conclusion that bum is a framer. Yes, I'm tunneling bum. That's my method. There's nothing wrong (IMO) with tunneling someone, especially when it forces them to commit a ton of mistakes. My goal over the past day has been to provocate bum (and potentially whoever else I've correctly guessed are mafia) to force him to post more. I don't "decide" someone is mafia, and then super analyze them. I read the posts of my suspects, I read other players' analyses, and I see if I can find anything that supports or refutes their or my opinions. Sometimes such "examples" are just townies being dumb. Sometimes, it's hard to identify what is the hallmark of a dumb townie, and what's the hallmark of a mafia being scummy. Yes, I have been wrong. Yes, I have been wrong a lot in this game. I was wrong about Sevryn, I was wrong about hiro, I was wrong about xt, I was (briefly) wrong about Palmar and super. The only players of this list I wrote serious analysis about were xt and hiro; hiro, we all thought was scum. Xt was a main mafia-influenced target when Mig was on the chopping block on the same day we lynched hiro. Also, I too thought super and palmar were scum, remember? I was going to do the same thing you were going to do (post about super) and then I reread his posts and saw nothing objective to analyze in them. I don't post about a player unless I actually straight up have a case for them, and I am not fabricating anything. Is that fair? Now, critically, I believe now that I was also wrong about vain. HOWEVER, I do NOT believe I was/am wrong about bum, about the scumread I've had since his predecessor was playing. On August 30 2011 02:12 Lucidity wrote: I've had this bad gut feeling about you all game long, but then you also contribute A LOT, which threw me off. But after the nard and bum flips play out I'm definitely looking at you again. Your massive posts are daunting, but perhaps that was your plan to deter people from analyzing them -.- I haven't read any of your cases and thought, "Hmmm, yes I really like what this guy is saying!". I invite you to analyze me if you have a gut feeling about me. You yourself said that I should be operating on objective grounds (which, other than perhaps the framer bit, I am. In fact, even the accusation of bum being a framer isn't necessarily me acting on my feelings, it's also part of my tunneling to get mafia out in the open) And again, I don't care whether or not you like my style of play. All I care is that we kill mafia. On August 30 2011 02:12 Lucidity wrote: 12 Town vs 5 Mafia, "BUT WE STILL HAVE WORK TO DO", as if we're on our way to winning. 12v5 is a terrible situation for us. I don't understand how me highlighting our (dire) situation of being only 12 against 5 and saying that we have to do things perfectly is a suggestion that we're on our way to winning. We can't win unless we play perfectly, that's why I'm being so fervent about killing bum tomorrow and not vain. On August 30 2011 02:12 Lucidity wrote:"BE CAUTIOUS" you say. Then in the very same post you say, "DONT DOUBT YOURSELVES". Lolwut? That's my own dumb fault. I made a wrong decision. My intention of saying "don't doubt yourselves" was to prevent ourselves from wasting time on things that don't mean anything, but clearly I've been responsible for some of the recent muck. I'll own up to that, that's my problem. On August 30 2011 02:12 Lucidity wrote: Vain is Mafia turns in to Vain is 100% town and bum is framing him, based off of nothing really. BB/bum is almost certain to be lynched next, your massive analysis was overkill. But it had a purpose: To save Vain. Mafia can vote for other mafia mate, especially if nard/bum is more important than Vain. Really need to see these people flip and go from there. Yes, actually, my intention IS to save vain, because I think he is town. That's clear, isn't it? Lynch bum instead of vain tomorrow, then we can move on to hunting the rest of the scum. On August 30 2011 02:23 bumatlarge wrote: So you're going to sit back and let him get away with doing this after nailing it on the head dude? If nard is scum and I get lynched tomorrow it will be at 7v4 when the next kills roll in, and even if we lynch vain>WBG right after, it will be 3v2 which is VERY difficult for town to win in. You can't wait to see flips at this point you have think it all out like you just did and act. Everyone should read this post by bum. On August 30 2011 03:38 Varpulis wrote: reads mean scumreads. townreads are beyond useless, unless you're discussing a lynch candidate who you believe to be town. this post literally SCREAMS scum. Especially the bolded part. yes we do, we get the opinions of somebody we know the alignment of, which is impossible while you're alive. You've claimed that you're town, so why don't you go about proving it? Scumhunt, weigh in on suspects, DO SOMETHING. Also, telling people not to call people out is bad. Really bad. WBG, read this post, and tell me if he's town that got framed. I seriously can't believe how you think that, especially after reading posts like this. I've read it. Vain just kinda posts like that, just as hiro and sevryn posted like that too. Town play this game has been really shitty. I played pretty shittily the first couple days especially. We have more time to get stuff out of vain, though I am convinced he is town, I'm open to suggestions AFTER tomorrow, since we should lynch bum tomorrow. I need more time. You dig? On August 30 2011 04:06 RayzorFlash wrote: Sorry, havent read much of thread since last night of kills... Did whoever was saved last night come out yet? Or Did mafia actually only kill 2 people :s So far, seems like Nard is the leading candidate, and one of either vain or bugs is scum. I think Nard will be the best pick because foolishness clearly knew for SURE that he was scum. Therecan still be doubts about chaosers claim sinceit COULD be mafia trying to cause a mislynch especially based on the timing that he revealed himself. It seemed like prime time for scum to tey and draw attention away from nard so they get another night of 3 KP which would give us nearly no room for error... Theres a way to be sure about it though, if chaoser survives the next night, we know he is scum and lynch him for trying to mislead us. If he doesnt, we know he was right and lynch Vain... So for tonight, ##Vote: Nard This guy's probably one of our last 3. On August 30 2011 04:36 Navillus wrote: Ahhhhhhh don't modkill me! sorry I had my power go out the day after the hurricane, ok I didn't miss a vote but give me time to catch up, if the night post is like about to happen then ##Vote Brownbear just so I have a vote in but really I have to read everything from the last day or so. I get a townread on this vote On August 30 2011 05:00 Lucidity wrote: Pay particular attention to: - Why he believes nard is confirmed scum. - Why he doubts Vain is scum - Why he changed from thinking Vain is scum to town I especially don't understand this first one: - Why he believes nard is confirmed scum. Because Foolish said so, 2 wandering townies are dead (making the likelihood of nard being a wanderer almost nill), and even if nard was a wandering townie he'd have to hit a 3/21 chance of visiting a person who died? (I assume Foolish saw this the night before he died) What is so strange about this? - Why he doubts Vain is scum It's my opinion. Take it or leave it for now, but please value it for tomorrow, because I'm certain we have a better candidate in bum. Once bum flips scum let's reevaluate. Fair? - Why he changed from thinking Vain is scum to town Three reasons, in order of importance: 1. Page 92. 2. Foolishness's opinion. 3. bumatlarge's vote and his responses to me. Also lucidity, I don't see how posting a lot of content makes me scummy. | ||
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On August 30 2011 10:11 Varpulis wrote: This was 6 hours ago. He hasn't posted anything useful since. First bold: he says that we'll be able to determine if he's scum or not by evaluating his reasoning. The very reasoning that he has yet to provide, despite constant prodding. This is a scum tactic if ever i've seen one. second bold: most cop-out excuse ever. townies actually don't do that either, the key difference is that townies don't have an agenda to push or a slip to cover up. If they accuse a townie or make bad decisions they get called out, which is the last thing mafia wants, hence the lack of content from vain. I'm down to lynch bum, but I wouldn't mind a vig hit on vain in between. bum will flip scum, as will vain. The order doesn't really matter to me. He tends to do that, just like sevryn and hiro posted "scummily." Vain's "scumminess" that everyone keeps talking about (and that I thought I was seeing) is, I think, just dumbness. Also, his current lack of activity can be explained by the fact that he lives in Europe. We had this same problem with supersoft, kurumi, and nard. Lack of activity at certain times of the day I don't think necessarily has correlated very much to being mafia in this game. I'd like to point out, also, that Pyo is the only person to have left a vote on vain. I still consider him a top suspect after bum. | ||
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On August 30 2011 11:03 chaoser wrote: @wherebugsgo Who are your mafia reads? bum, pyo, kurumi, viscera. Bum 100%, pyo nearly. Kurumi is suspicious on his roleclaim, and viscera I've analyzed. If not viscera then I really don't know. I've gone back and forth on Navillus, but I'm reading town on him right now. | ||
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On August 30 2011 11:23 chaoser wrote: I have a similar list but I think vain is a better candidate for mafia than kurumi. You don't find his claim post weird? I didn't really think anything of kurumi until his claim. However, if you look at all his posts/actions, the only thing of significance is that he vigged Palmar. There is no way to discern whether he is a scum vig or a town vig. The only hint toward one or the other is the claim post, and as has been pointed out already, only kurumi capitalizes "you" in the middle of sentences. On August 30 2011 11:23 chaoser wrote: I'd rather be safe than sorry. Me too, I just have a different conclusion. I still say we lynch bum today. We're going to lynch him eventually. We KNOW he's mafia. I want to know for certain his role as mafia, though, because IMO that'll give us more information than anything else. Just think about it. You think vain and bum are mafia. Will lynching vain give us any information about other mafia? Most definitely no. Will bum's lynch? Yeah, almost definitely, because we know pyo was the only other one who voted vain. | ||
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On August 30 2011 11:37 chaoser wrote: The reason I want to lynch vain is because I think he's possibly the roleblocker, that's why. If brownbear was still in the game I'd have probably read it the way you did but since it's bumatlarge I'm more in line of thinking that it's all a giant double layered ploy, which I've seen him pull before. And about Kurumi? So you think the four mafia are like: bum/vain/pyo ...?? viscera? Rayzor? I guess the last one isn't immediately important, but even so...I'll vote bum tomorrow, you vote vain, we can just all vote whoever we think is the better lynch. Assuming they're both alive, of course...if we miraculously have a vig that'd be great. What do you think of Kurumi's claim? | ||
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On August 30 2011 11:51 Varpulis wrote: damn i write slowly. I've got an idea! let's lynch mafia because they're mafia, not because of the information that we'll get. If we're working on the assumption that both vain and bum are mafia, then I say bum is the better choice because lynching bum gives us information. How hard is that to comprehend? Forget my thoughts for a second here and just reason that out. | ||
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On August 30 2011 12:42 chaoser wrote: Lynching vain gives us info too though. Maybe I'm just not seeing it but how does lynching bum give us more info than lynching vain? What info does lynching vain give us? I can't see at any point, where vain has been linked to anyone. Lynching bum first will tell us Pyo is almost definitely mafia. I guess it's just a formality on that, since if we think bum is mafia we don't need to see him flip to know Pyo is mafia, but w/e. Also, if we lynch bum first and he turns out to be the framer then what? | ||
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On August 30 2011 14:21 VisceraEyes wrote: WBG is using a lot of 'little things' about me in conjunction with my activity (which has been, as I've already admitted, horrendous) as his evidence against me. The sheer effort of his case screams town to me, first of all. I'll address a few of the 'little things' he's talking about. This seemed to me like a strong jab at Foolishness/chaoser and their use of meta to pin Mig. This was actually more me pointing out the irony of how most of their arguments so far were based on meta, and the second I tried to speak their language with one of my OWN suspicions, THEN they started scumhunting. I went on tilt shortly after all of this. All four town, just subjectively "scummy" enough that day to be good potential lynches for mafia. We all ended up bandwagoning hiro, so mafia agenda was achieved. To be fair, I had a scum-read on Palmar and hiro, and I was obviously wrong about Foolish. I'll post my thoughts on xtfftc later. His response to my post asking for people's opinions. Basically saying he's a.) unwilling to put in the work to examine his suspects b.) putting up an excuse/reason not to post analysis (i.e. he'd have to fabricate it.) It seems, in context of all his other posts, like a reluctance to contribute. This is me on tilt. It happens about once a game. People don't take me seriously, I rage. It's pretty standard VE stuff - you haven't played with me, so I wouldn't expect you to expect it. Soft defend of Mig there, made in response to Mig's post that "no one was defending him" Yeah, I had a town read on Mig. The meta arguments were the only case against him really. I wasn't convinced at this point. VE uses a false dichotomy to insinuate that only one of BB/Mig can be mafia. This is a mistake. I was only referring to the fact that we can only lynch one of them. At this point, I had started to doubt my town read on Mig and I hadn't yet gone back to reread the games Foolish was basing his meta read on. I was keener on BB because unlike Palmar's case, Foolish's case was actually good and I was convinced. Now, I'd like to clear up that I don't think meta is useless. Far from it, but I don't think it's enough to base a lynch off of alone. I don't blame you guys if you lynch me for my inactivity. I've been playing a LOT of mafia recently, on a couple different sites also + Show Spoiler + I've been working on a podcast...it's cool. Go to Nerd National to check it out! But I'm not scum. The reason I was so late on the nard lynch was because I had a town read on him before (see my post to that effect) and to be honest, I wanted to help town lynch who town wanted to lynch in case he WAS scum and the scumteam wanted to try another vote-switch. Ultimately, I'm glad I did. Now, I'll be back with my reads later. This was just a defense post, and should be taken as such. I'm filtering a few people presently and I'll write up all my thoughts. Sweet, thanks for confirming yourself. Time to cross you off my mafia list :D | ||
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So my list: bum/pyo/rayzor/kurumi in that order. Replace one of the last two with vain if I'm wrong. | ||
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This was the goal of my tunnelling. To get mafia out in the open. Managed to confirm VE, and obviously Pyo is mafia. Also lol @ him thinking me saying "both clean" = vain+nard when it clearly meant vain+chaoser. I'm still iffy on vain but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong. There could be other explanations for why bum would've voted him. However I still support a bum lynch, especially after this guy defended him lol. | ||
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On August 31 2011 01:48 Pyo wrote: bumatlarge - no idea really, I thought BB was scum, but the sub (and the need to be subbed in the first place) has thrown me off so I don't really know. WBG's analysis of him felt like bullshit though. Vain - I voted for him after having checked him, what do you think I think of him? kurumi - As far as I'm concerned he isn't even playing this game. I don't read his posts - I might have an aneurism if I actually do. Rayzorflash - I feel like he's scum. I checked errandor for more or less the same reason I am suspicious of rayzor - somewhat late bandwagon votes on mig and lurking nearly as much as me. Also, checking jackal night 1 did not confirm my sanity since naive DT's will return green for everyone. LOL he thought BB was scum but checked someone else who was clearly town that night. Wtf your claim is terrible, especially the last sentence where you say you could be naive. Well dude, if you got green on jackal and red on vain OBVIOUSLY you are sane. Worst claim ever, we need to lynch this guy soon. | ||
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On August 31 2011 03:32 chaos13 wrote: I'm thinking Pyo first. Way more comfortable about him than the other two, because too many people I'm not sure of have been too comfortable with lynching them. This sounds like a good compromise. But damn, I really wanna see bum flip. | ||
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On August 31 2011 03:38 chaos13 wrote: If we have DT's who haven't claimed yet, I'd check bumatlarge, Barundar, and wherebugsgo. No point in checking Vain cause we have 2 claimed DT's who have claimed to check him. This is bad advice. Barundar and I are pretty much confirmed town and Bum is most certainly mafia. Better checks would be Rayzor, xt, and Kurumi, since we don't know what they are. I lean town on xt, but we still don't know. | ||
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No one is confirmed persay other than probably chaoser. I say pretty much confirmed because his posts don't suggest anything scummy. Just filter him. Bum and Pyo right now are blue fishing (Pyo in particular: he said right now is the safest time to claim). A dt who checks me, Barundar, VE, etc. tonight will be wasting a check. | ||
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On August 31 2011 06:30 Lucidity wrote: wherebugsgo's play has gone completely insane in the last day. We probably have the whole scum team set up to be lynched and he's sweating. Wtf are you talking about? If you're town, please go and find some objective reasons why I'm mafia instead of throwing useless accusations around. | ||
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On August 31 2011 06:38 Vain wrote: Wait. So Pyo claimed dt without results but insinuating that i came back red. I love this game:\ Are you going to post scumreads or not? This post is like...not enough. To me it has the air of a townie who's just given up, but we need more from you, otherwise you're gonna get lynched. In fact I'm pretty sure most people want to lynch you first, so you need to give us some great reasons not to. | ||
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On August 31 2011 08:05 Vain wrote: Yeah, i know that and its not gonna change with mafia hammering on me and i know i can't defend myself because i just stupidly followed the rest:\ Maybe i'll put some time into this tomorrow but i don't really think i'll live up to that cause its my bday tomorrow. -_- If we lynch you tomorrow and you flip town, I am going to rage SO hard | ||
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foolishness ? mig -----> jackal bum -----> vain ?? I shall vote bum. + Show Spoiler + *crosses fingers* | ||
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please excuse my insanity over the past day, anything I have done in-game is meant to stay in game! I hope you townies can figure everything out and win! | ||
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Never again will I do that lol, I've done it twice now and I regret it fully. | ||
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On September 08 2011 12:37 GMarshal wrote: Debate it in the banlist if you must, but I would feel bad going on what I said, considering its basically only failure to vote, as they were posting in the thread. In the future however I will be giving bans unless a really good excuse is presented. Is that many modkills (4?) normal? I mean we also had a few replacements too. | ||
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On September 08 2011 13:16 bumatlarge wrote: Anyone see that epic framer bait i left for chaoser when vain died? Never framed vain :D wat | ||
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On September 08 2011 13:55 bumatlarge wrote: Thought I told you? The vain vote you picked up on was meant to be for when vain popped green. Chaoser could bus the vote onto me by explaining that vain had been framed and it was apparent in my posting. You jumped on it, so I was kinda happy to get lynched and town was too comfortable to call chaoser scum, along with his good play, until the endgame. All those silly connections got you in the end, when it was really just mig and myself going down for the team. Congrats us and good work team! Curu could have probably won it by himself. I jumped on it because I thought vain would certainly get lynched that day. Also part of my mistake was not making it clear that I felt chaoser was suspicious and that he was linked to you; it seemed weird that you would frame vain on the same night he supposedly checked him. I was going to make it very explicit that, if chaoser lived, he would be mafia. Of course I was retarded and I didn't post that before the night ended, Everything afterward that screwed down was a combination of additional bad play, inattention, and modkills. Town lost this one for ourselves, we were in a strong position at several points in the game to just dominate mafia. We have no one to blame but ourselves for that. | ||
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On September 08 2011 14:49 chaoser wrote: . Ok I didn't understand this logic...this is how a framer is SUPPOSE to work, they're hoping for a DT check on the person they framed. How is that weird? It wasn't weird by itself. Remember I asked you why the hell you claimed so early? There were a bunch of small things that just made me go "huh wtf?" and I didn't put you on my scumlist right away because my priority at the time was lynching nard and then bum. | ||
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On September 08 2011 14:53 Palmar wrote: Curu scumslipped like a boss and no one noticed but me, thankfully mafia had Kurumi on their side. I guess I have been spoiled by playing with good town players who bother to work for their victory instead of expecting to be carried, and thus I thought it didn't matter how I acted, because people would most certainly be able to tell the difference anyway. This was not the case during this game, people were stuck with their heads up their asses and did not want to read objectively, and thus it's my own failure not to adapt my play to the bad logic that worked with this town. Here is the list I wrote on day 2, remember that later during the day foolishness and dropbear got "confirmed" https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0Aolx7msuf_IvdHZoc05pSE9neVFWOWU2RTVYWWpBRmc&output=html But this game was different, people simply did not want to work for it, and I completely failed to adapt my playstyle to this much more naive town than before. The only person on town's side that had decent reads early was Foolishness, other people like xtf and wbg played alright-ish once they got the chance to pull their heads out of their asses, but that was just too late. Personally I have a huge issue with people who seemingly don't care enough to put any thought into their playing. I had major confusion issues with chaos13 this game, because I couldn't simply write off his terrible reads as nooby, because he's not a noob, he's actually pretty good at this game, but this game everything was so off I simply couldn't imagine any other reason but him being wrong intentionally, while the truth was he simply failed to read the thread. I'm going to bold this, because I failed to do this once when I was a newbie, and you all need to learn this lesson. Whenever a townie dies or gets confirmed, especially through a lynch or vig shot, re-read the entire thread with this new information in hand. Foolishness died and had so many nuggets of wisdom. I died and left you with basically the entire mafia team uncovered, but still you lynched people who were obviously not scum. It's so important to read the thread and not focus on looking for "scummy things" or "scumtells". That's what gets uncareful townies lynched, like Hiro and Sevryn. Anyone should've been able to tell they were town, it is how I initially pinned Curu as scum, he's very good at mafia and thus couldn't possibly think the Hiro and Sevryn lynches were good ideas. It was also the case against Mig. This game is just the pinnacle of what happens when you mix pride with lazyness, you end up with a shitty, shitty town that's unable to do anything constructive. On day one we had a mafia against the wall, but we lynched a very, very obvious townie (like, what mafia would so blatantly bandwagon me?) because I was too proud to change my approach, and town was too proud and lazy to listen to my arguments and actually read Sevryn's posts and deduce the mindset he was in when he made those. Thing is, I'll admit it, I'm getting more lazy with posting in a political way, by now I expect people to just listen to what I say, when I'm town and they do it usually ends up very well for town, but sometimes people just don't, and it's hard having to convince the same people every game. Some of us are just never going to be any useful anyway, VisceraEyes has almost never had a correct read, yet he seems unwilling to step back and reassess his approach. Kurumi is a troublemaker in his own, and giving him a gun was the worst thing that could happen to town. chaos13 has been having a streak of terrible reads (cosmic horror, xliv etc) but he'll bounce back once he lets go of his pride, because he's actually good. I think both xtf and wbg have the potential to be good players, same with supersoft, and if hiro protagonist plays town like this again he can easily elevate himself to a good player too. And then there's of course balance to consider, with DropBear and chaos13 derping like mad, who were supposed to be some of town's best and most experienced players there was very little to work with for town. Mafia had 4 really good players, Curu, Mig, BrownBear and chaoser, while town really only had three, Jackal, Foolishness and me. Anyway, I guess this game can act as a collective lesson to us all. So many new or new-ish people got their first taste of being completely fucking wrong time and time again this game, so I hope it allows them to break down and re-build their approach to play better mafia in the future, loads of fairly new players in this game that can go on to be good. As for myself, I'll never again take being listened to for granted, I thought Foolishness's "If Palmar is mafia he's on drugs" would be enough, but again, head in ass syndrome ruined reads for town. Whenever someone like Foolishness says something like that, and then becomes confirmed, people better fucking listen. Well played mafia, and again, sorry for my own performance this game. GG My shitty play on days 1 and 2 was due to it being my first game. After hiro got lynched and I raged for a bit I began to play more clearly and I thought more objectively. Problem was I still made some really dumb mistakes with respect to what I revealed and when I revealed it. | ||
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