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@toad I agree having confirmed tells at this point is illogical; I personally made a list of the candidates and whether or not I thought they were more town or more scum, based off cursory analysis, then went from there. wiggles isn't confirmed town to me nor is anyone else, but as a mayoral candidate wiggles looks town imo.
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On January 14 2012 04:17 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote:
I don't get it, BC. Why now?
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own.
Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here.
Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum?
Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote:
@jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post?
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later.
Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit.
Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though
how is my role not confirmable? Say im scum and a scumbuddy says "yes he mason'd me" if i die and flip non mason red, both of us die and two mafia die? How is that effective at all.
as for me beginning the discussion without claiming. With how I feel on the matter, it would easily come out via my posting that I would be the role, as such, why not just claim it now and get it over with. I am being as transparent as possible, and putting forth an issue everyone has an opinion on. That in itself is insanely important day 1. Generating discussion in hopes that town wins is far more important than my run at an election.
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On January 14 2012 03:32 risk.nuke wrote:
I get the feeling palmar is trying to cover up scumplay by playing too much like his scumplay. You know what I mean?
or maybe he's acting scummy to survive nigth1 OR he's scum, acting scummy to make us believe that he's town, acting scummy to survive the night. Or he's acting scummy because he's scum. Or he doesn't act scummy because it's day1 and he can't do shit right now.
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On January 14 2012 04:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.)
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace?
I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1
Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on
That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming.
I am mason
Note what I have done?
[1]
I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%.
I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.]
I am doing this for a few reasons.
[2]
1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2]
[3]
2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3]
3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?"
[4]
4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4]
This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask?
I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms.
I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known.
[5]
It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5]
This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me.
All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later.
On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim?
1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less.
The part about what I called 1) was what you said in your example:
If there are 4 masons and only one is red the chances are not 50/50. If we don't have the exact same amount of blue roles it's not going to be 50/50. But that's just useless chat so I'll leave it with that because it's just not important at all imo.
About your example what is going to happen if you're red and ask a buddy to help out. If this thing of yours works out and people believe you you won't be lynched. Neither will scum kill you because you are a mafia yourself in that scenario. Even if there's a rampaging vigi you're safe due to your bodyguards if you're elected.
The guy you masoned probably is someone you think is town I guess? Why should he be lynched and same applies to mafia here: Mafia won't shoot that if you are mafia.
About late game: I've never seen masions in action. I think they look neat but I can't judge how good they are. That's why I asked "why" because I did not think we have to talk about masons because I did not think they're that scary. That was more of an "explain pls".
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hey, toadesstern, can you link me a game where you were town? I know your scummeta. It's talking a lot with no content. You do that right now.
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Okay let me address somethings I liked in this thread:
1) Proactinum post is the best one so far. Fuck yes I like it. Cyriandor is my top candidate for lynch if I get elected.
2) Jackal's idea is very good. If I'm elected I'll lynch 1 or 0 bg.
3) I'm seriously considering supporting a mason mass claim day1. Mafia will have to claim it early if they ever want to use it and it gives us good basis for discussion. These big games fall rapidly out of control if we don't keep focus and this will give us something to go by.
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On January 14 2012 04:21 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:17 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote:
I don't get it, BC. Why now?
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own.
Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here.
Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum?
Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote:
@jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post?
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later.
Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit.
Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though how is my role not confirmable? Say im scum and a scumbuddy says "yes he mason'd me" if i die and flip non mason red, both of us die and two mafia die? How is that effective at all. as for me beginning the discussion without claiming. With how I feel on the matter, it would easily come out via my posting that I would be the role, as such, why not just claim it now and get it over with. I am being as transparent as possible, and putting forth an issue everyone has an opinion on. That in itself is insanely important day 1. Generating discussion in hopes that town wins is far more important than my run at an election.
your roleclaim is likely, but not sure. 2 people at risk for trust and doubt in townfolk isn't that bad of a deal.
by being transparent, you're actually not. You still didn't answer why you would jeopardize your campaign?
I'm not even saying you're scum, I just say that I think it's a bad move.
Being elected and being protected by 1(imo) bodyguard.Then roleclaim as mayor. Being able to talk to your guards. Get three votes. That would've been it...
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On January 14 2012 04:26 supersoft wrote:
hey, toadesstern, can you link me a game where you were town? I know your scummeta. It's talking a lot with no content. You do that right now.
alread told you I do talk a lot as both town and mafia but yeah I'll look those 2 games up (the 80 player thing does not count, that game was gay  )
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On January 14 2012 04:26 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.)
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace?
I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1
Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on
That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming.
I am mason
Note what I have done?
[1]
I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%.
I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.]
I am doing this for a few reasons.
[2]
1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2]
[3]
2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3]
3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?"
[4]
4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4]
This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask?
I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms.
I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known.
[5]
It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5]
This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me.
All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later.
On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim?
1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less. The part about what I called 1) was what you said in your example: If there are 4 masons and only one is red the chances are not 50/50. If we don't have the exact same amount of blue roles it's not going to be 50/50. But that's just useless chat so I'll leave it with that because it's just not important at all imo. About your example what is going to happen if you're red and ask a buddy to help out. If this thing of yours works out and people believe you you won't be lynched. Neither will scum kill you because you are a mafia yourself in that scenario. Even if there's a rampaging vigi you're safe due to your bodyguards if you're elected. The guy you masoned probably is someone you think is town I guess? Why should he be lynched and same applies to mafia here: Mafia won't shoot that if you are mafia. About late game: I've never seen masions in action. I think they look neat but I can't judge how good they are. That's why I asked "why" because I did not think we have to talk about masons because I did not think they're that scary. That was more of an "explain pls".
The only way my claim makes sense if i am actually a mason. The role inherently is 50/50 % of being red. My example says that i would have a 25% chance, but the role itself is a 50/50. Regardless, ignore the math.
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them. Only a mason would make my claim.
your ignore the case that im town. In whichcase if i am elected mafia now hates my guts, if i am not they still hate my guts as dealing with me is hard. You could frame me sure, but a dt checks, i die and they still are on a reduced list. Only my actions at this point will save me from dying or guarentee it.
As for masons in action? Ask VE what I did in fw's game where everyone had 2 mason uses. I was mafia he was town, and in 1-2 conversations i had him create utter chaos in thread. We have had near no game where only a limited amount of players are masons. It will be a mechanic that can do more damage than any other role in this game.
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On January 14 2012 04:26 supersoft wrote:
hey, toadesstern, can you link me a game where you were town? I know your scummeta. It's talking a lot with no content. You do that right now.
here you go:
my first ever gamehttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264798
my 2nd game
my third game was that 80 player game. I did the same to some degree but stopped posting after d2 or something like that because it was too much of a mess for me at that point in time
4th game was my first ever mafia (the one with annul)
5th game was resistance
this is the 6th game.
So nothing more I can provide
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On January 14 2012 04:27 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:21 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:17 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote:On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote:
I don't get it, BC. Why now?
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own.
Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here.
Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum?
Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote:
@jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post?
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later.
Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit.
Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though how is my role not confirmable? Say im scum and a scumbuddy says "yes he mason'd me" if i die and flip non mason red, both of us die and two mafia die? How is that effective at all. as for me beginning the discussion without claiming. With how I feel on the matter, it would easily come out via my posting that I would be the role, as such, why not just claim it now and get it over with. I am being as transparent as possible, and putting forth an issue everyone has an opinion on. That in itself is insanely important day 1. Generating discussion in hopes that town wins is far more important than my run at an election. your roleclaim is likely, but not sure. 2 people at risk for trust and doubt in townfolk isn't that bad of a deal. by being transparent, you're actually not. You still didn't answer why you would jeopardize your campaign? I'm not even saying you're scum, I just say that I think it's a bad move. Being elected and being protected by 1(imo) bodyguard.Then roleclaim as mayor. Being able to talk to your guards. Get three votes. That would've been it...
What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
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On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM
Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch
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On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:26 Toadesstern wrote:On January 14 2012 04:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.)
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace?
I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1
Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on
That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming.
I am mason
Note what I have done?
[1]
I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%.
I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.]
I am doing this for a few reasons.
[2]
1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2]
[3]
2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3]
3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?"
[4]
4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4]
This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask?
I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms.
I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known.
[5]
It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5]
This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me.
All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later.
On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim?
1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less. The part about what I called 1) was what you said in your example: If there are 4 masons and only one is red the chances are not 50/50. If we don't have the exact same amount of blue roles it's not going to be 50/50. But that's just useless chat so I'll leave it with that because it's just not important at all imo. About your example what is going to happen if you're red and ask a buddy to help out. If this thing of yours works out and people believe you you won't be lynched. Neither will scum kill you because you are a mafia yourself in that scenario. Even if there's a rampaging vigi you're safe due to your bodyguards if you're elected. The guy you masoned probably is someone you think is town I guess? Why should he be lynched and same applies to mafia here: Mafia won't shoot that if you are mafia. About late game: I've never seen masions in action. I think they look neat but I can't judge how good they are. That's why I asked "why" because I did not think we have to talk about masons because I did not think they're that scary. That was more of an "explain pls". [...] If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them. Only a mason would make my claim. your ignore the case that im town. In whichcase if i am elected mafia now hates my guts, if i am not they still hate my guts as dealing with me is hard. You could frame me sure, but a dt checks, i die and they still are on a reduced list. Only my actions at this point will save me from dying or guarentee it. As for masons in action? Ask VE what I did in fw's game where everyone had 2 mason uses. I was mafia he was town, and in 1-2 conversations i had him create utter chaos in thread. We have had near no game where only a limited amount of players are masons. It will be a mechanic that can do more damage than any other role in this game.
First paragraph: I thought if you're a red mason you're not going to use your power d1 and just pretend you masoned someone while asking your bro to help out a little. Noone is going to see a flip if you both survive. And yes I agree you won't mason a red. It's either going to be noone and you're red or you're green and actually masoned someone.
2nd pararaph: No I'm not. I see that what you did might make sense as a townie as well. I just don't think it's bullshit as red either and I'm trying to point that out.
So what's your take about the masons? I actually like what sandroba suggested somehow. Haven't thought it through yet but I don't see drawbacks yet.
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On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch
how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom.
As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc...
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RE: BC claiming 1/3 of the way into day 1.
I'm not going to vote for BC now.
There's nothing new here, but this was the reasoning
+ Show Spoiler +If I was a mason, and had a pretty compelling campaign already made, I wouldn't bother claiming as a townie. As scum, I might fall victim to not seeing the votes pile up on me, and try to gain all the town cred I can as quickly as I can to gain immunity to DT's. He could hold any pro-town discussion without claiming.
If you want my election vote, remember that anyone relying on their role to get elected isn't worth electing. This is a game of analysis, not blues, and if you start electing because someone is blue, it will turn into 'follow the blue'.
On January 14 2012 04:21 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:32 risk.nuke wrote:
I get the feeling palmar is trying to cover up scumplay by playing too much like his scumplay. You know what I mean? or maybe he's acting scummy to survive nigth1 OR he's scum, acting scummy to make us believe that he's town, acting scummy to survive the night. Or he's acting scummy because he's scum. Or he doesn't act scummy because it's day1 and he can't do shit right now.
Occams Razor demands that he's scum because he's acting scummy.
You might as well stop using WIFOM to protect Palmar.
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On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc...
The very fact you as a red shouldn't choose another red makes it wifom. You could do it in an attempt to give the other person cred in the event you flipped.
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On January 14 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
so you're saying, you interfering with the mafias powers because you conjure up a mass claim? is that your point? Or what is?
Because other than that your claim would just achieve nothing. No one knows, if you're really a mason (though I believe you here) and no one knows if you're town, since this claiming move could make sense while being scum as well.
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On January 14 2012 04:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc... The very fact you as a red shouldn't choose another red makes it wifom. You could do it in an attempt to give the other person cred in the event you flipped.
How does me flipping red or blue give cred to whoever I picked? It gives you no information on them aside from the fact I mason'd them. I can talk to people, not confirm their alignment, or anything. If i say i masoned x and i die and flip, regardless of my alignment you gain no information on that player aside from I talked to them.
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On January 14 2012 04:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On January 14 2012 04:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 04:36 Mattchew wrote:On January 14 2012 04:31 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
If i am a red mason it means whoever claims i masoned will be town, period. I would never have to mason a scumbuddy as well, im already talking to them.
WIFOM Otherwise, Do you think that all masons should claim like you have? Assuming atleast 1 mason would be mafia it could lead to a high percentage day 1 lynch how is that wifom? Why would I as red ever out myself and another mafia in the same day? Especially when if i had used my mason somewhere else i would be counterclaimed and die? It would mean i would have to hold onto my use and have a scumbuddy claim and thus waste my own power to corrupt a townie? It is pure logic, not wifom. As for masons claiming? Things like this are what my claim were supposed to generate. Forcing people to only post in the thread for instance is a huge deal as it removes a scum form of play, etc... The very fact you as a red shouldn't choose another red makes it wifom. You could do it in an attempt to give the other person cred in the event you flipped. How does me flipping red or blue give cred to whoever I picked? It gives you no information on them aside from the fact I mason'd them. I can talk to people, not confirm their alignment, or anything. If i say i masoned x and i die and flip, regardless of my alignment you gain no information on that player aside from I talked to them.
he's saying that if you weren't a mason and you would booty call on your scum buddy to help you claim, then this could be wifom to save your scum buddy in case you turn red (in this very scenario)
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On January 14 2012 04:46 Jayjay54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
What you are suggesting is the selfish move. I am a member of the town. One member is not more important than the rest. Am I more experienced than some? yes. However, this move itself is annoying for mafia to deal with. For instance.
Say that we only allow masons to work in pm's who claim publically as an example. If a single person fails to claim and someone gets mason'd they die. In that case you either catch a dumb fucking townie or a mafia. Does town decide to just ignore all mason requests and operate with everything in thread? Are all pm chains going to be placed in thread, etc...
Eliminating a powerful weapon from the mafia is insanely beneficial tactic that benefits the town. So say my jeopardizing my own election fucks the mafias abilities in the grand scheme to corrupt or manipulate townies via pms? Is that not worth it?
Townies should do most of the major posting and plans in thread at all times, so they have no real reason to use pms whereas mafia gets huge gains. As a mason can only talk 1 a player once for 1 cycle in a game, it is more beneficial for them as they can manipulate but don't suffer the long term scrutiny they would get if they talked to someone all game.
so you're saying, you interfering with the mafias powers because you conjure up a mass claim? is that your point? Or what is? Because other than that your claim would just achieve nothing. No one knows, if you're really a mason (though I believe you here) and no one knows if you're town, since this claiming move could make sense while being scum as well.
Ok, say the town agrees that everyone just opts not to talk to masons. You don't talk to them making them an essentially useless role. How is this beneficial as red? Every mason mass claims and all those who dont who are caught acting are lynched and die as a townie has no reason to hide the fact and only a red does. Again making it hard for mafia to act as mafia are forced to claim mason or not use their role, all claimed masons have greater scruitiny as we all should. In the event all mason's are town, then sure we die, however mafia offs the more useless of town blue roles.
How as mafia does this make sense? It makes me look worse than I did before my claim, and I want people to actively discuss and potentially render my role useless? This is not mafia play at all. Which angle did I miss? The only way as red this looks good for me is "build town cred" at the cost of my entire team that I can see.
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EPT
