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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
Why? You're clearly not interested in participating in the game. Can you give me a good reason NOT to lynch you if I'm elected? Your play looks VERY like your disinterested, aloof scum play. "HERP it's so I don't get NK'd HERP" Don't give me that. townPalmar gets protected by doctors solely based on thread presence. What the fuck man? Of course I'm going to lynch you. You know me bro, I GOTTA kill Palmar if I think he's scum. Y U SO SCUM BRO? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:33 kitaman27 wrote: [...] [1.] Several people have passed on my campaign because of my comment on my town play, explaining that there are other better alternatives. It is uncomfortable to talk about how great oneself is, but I take that comment back. I've carried town in multiple games, gotten night 1/2 hit in three of the last four, and have been as consistent with my reads in recent games as any player: bugs/role (couples), GM/Caller (PYPI), foolishness/chaos/palmar (PTP), majority of scum team (XXXVIII/HP). I'm not as wordy as Meapak or as aggressive as BC, but I think my town results are just as good. [/1.] [...] [2.] Someone asked me earlier what I would base the lynch on. It would be someone who is talking about neutral topics, summarizing others opinions, or attempting to blend in. On day one, I think its far easy to find someone who isn't posting with town motives, than it is to find someone posting with scum motives. Jayjay's remarks on Echelon potential forced post was nice considering I was thinking the same thing. I'm not willing to pass off Foolishness's BM post as "town, because no mafia would ever do it". Slardar shouldn't be allowed to get away with his opening post and d3's BM policy lynch is weak. [/2.] 1) Awesome. When are you going to start doing so this game? 2) Don't you think it's incredible easy to look protown on d1 as a mafia as well? You actually play protown a lot on d1 without hurting your team if you're mafia because there's so little information d1. I'm just saying that because he had that the last couple of games when radfield thought I am town and even said I'm the most likely townie in the game. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own. Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here. Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum? Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:39 VisceraEyes wrote: BC, I consider your claim to be scummy for this reason: you're essentially leveraging your role to win you this election. Discuss. Eh? Vote for me on what I say not my claim. The mason mechanic is something that will be insanely hard to deal with late game. You and I both know this from a game I mason'd you when I was red. I wanted to discuss how to deal with masons, however as I wanted to heavily discuss it it would be inherent that my role was in fact mason. It is easier to just claim it than imply. I am well aware this claim has actually screwed my chances to a degree of being elected but the annoyance of masons late game without discussing them is worth at least 1 person forcing the topic now. If i don't get elected because of it, so be it. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:49 Jayjay54 wrote: I don't get it, BC. Why now? From what I read here, you were on top of quite some voting lists, including mine? So why would you roleclaim when your campaign was good enough on its own. Also, I'd like to line up with VE here. There's seriously nothing that says "I am town" here. Or would you consider your claim a bad play if you were scum? Therefore, I am glad that I didn't vote yet, because if I had, I had to unvote. Sceptical now. Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:53 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Being a mayor or sheriff whereas would rock does not outweigh what masons in generally can fuck up later in the game. I am one of whatever the end number is. If i don't get elected fine, however, is making everyone aware of at least one of the players who is capable of being active in pms a bad thing? As opposed to just saying "wow now your scummy" Discuss how we want to operate around masons, pros, cons, etc... Of all the roles in this setup, it is the only "confirmable role" but it is also insanely sinister as players can plant seeds of doubt, fish roles, etc... and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:26 rgTheSchworz wrote: I was trying to quote Palmar's hasty reaction and the fact that he supports someone who typed a one liner that Cyrandor would be scum on the basis that Wiggles' campaign might be the best. I will format better in the future. So far BC and BM have the most solid cases for mayor. BC-He has been active as he promised so far, is beggining to scumhunt, and ,,I am accountable for my actions'' has convinced me more than the generic things VE, risk, sandroba have been posting. BM-Now I don't know who this guy is, but one thing i'll give him: He had initiative at the start of day 1, built up a believable case against CC trying to force a mislynch, has some support from the town. Still, I will be waiting about 8 more h to decide on my vote.Hoping to see more from those 2 On January 14 2012 03:43 Mattchew wrote: You said you wanted your first lynch to be a town decision? Where is this logic now? Not that this is scummy just shitty mayor play If you believe I see CC as scum, then you haven't read what I've typed. I didn't like his opener, but after he made a case on Mr. Wiggles, I wouldn't lynch him if I was elected. I am waiting to see what some of the lurkers are going to do, namely L, Sheth, and Pandemic. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21170 Posts
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace? | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:39 VisceraEyes wrote: BC, I consider your claim to be scummy for this reason: you're essentially leveraging your role to win you this election. Discuss. I agree the motive is no doubt to win the election, I don't think it's scummy though. It just seems too cooky and there are motives for town aswell as scum to win the election. I think town has more to win on his move then scum. He also seemed to already have taken a lead in the election and judging from his post efforts I feel confident that if he were scum he could had won the election without resorting to this. And if he could have won the election without it it just feels like a bad scummove to put himself in this much spotlight. Even if he is the scum mason he will have an impossibly hard time to achive any scum agendas with his pm abillity. I will watch him closely for signs that he doesn't play as he preach and I don't think I will be the only one. It's just to much trouble to actually benefit the scum so I will choose to assume his claim is legit. It makes much more sense seeing how much this could potentially strenghten the town. Compared to what a risky long-shot high effort/low reward move it would be from scum. You will have my vote. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1 Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming. I am mason Note what I have done? [1] I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%. I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.] I am doing this for a few reasons. [2] 1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2] [3] 2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3] 3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?" [4] 4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4] This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask? I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms. I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known. [5] It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5] This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me. All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later. On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim? 1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:57 Jayjay54 wrote: and that's kinda what you just did. you seeded doubt. why not win the campaign => roleclaim => comfirm. how would that in any why fuck up late game? the timing just seems off. Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5245 Posts
I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later. Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit. Posted from phone, will post more later. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:00 risk.nuke wrote: I agree the motive is no doubt to win the election, I don't think it's scummy though. It just seems too cooky and there are motives for town aswell as scum to win the election. I think town has more to win on his move then scum. He also seemed to already have taken a lead in the election and judging from his post efforts I feel confident that if he were scum he could had won the election without resorting to this. And if he could have won the election without it it just feels like a bad scummove to put himself in this much spotlight. Even if he is the scum mason he will have an impossibly hard time to achive any scum agendas with his pm abillity. I will watch him closely for signs that he doesn't play as he preach and I don't think I will be the only one. It's just to much trouble to actually benefit the scum so I will choose to assume his claim is legit. It makes much more sense seeing how much this could potentially strenghten the town. Compared to what a risky long-shot high effort/low reward move it would be from scum. You will have my vote. +1 I completely agree with this post, but he already has my vote | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote: @jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post? I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later. Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit. Posted from phone, will post more later. why do you have tags in your notes? Am I the only one not having tags in my notes on d1 after just a couple of hours? Why are you certain that wiggles is a townie enough to give him a townie tag in your notes? See my in my notes if I got a leaning towards town it's going to be something like "probably town" along with some reasons because it's a guess at this time. Yeah I think my guess might be right but it's still just a guess. How do you know he's a townie? That just looks strange. However I don't know if you are going to make notes as a mafia either. I don't think you're going to put that much effort into a play when the thread is not as important to you because you rolled mafia. But who know. | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
As Mayor: - I will listen to all logical arguments and theories - I won't outweigh the theory of one person over another, or the many. - Democratic lynching strategy - I have no idea who I will kill first night - My first game on the forums, although I play Mafia online all the time. - I enjoy long walks on the beach | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote: BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.) What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace? I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote: The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1 Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming. I am mason Note what I have done? [1] I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%. I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.] I am doing this for a few reasons. [2] 1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2] [3] 2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3] 3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?" [4] 4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4] This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask? I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms. I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known. [5] It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5] This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me. All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later. On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim? 1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946 the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:02 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Because i believe its important to get the discussion with as early as possible? Masons act the instant day 1 begins. Whereas all other roles act at night in the exception of a jack using their mason ability (i believe). This claim where "ill timed" only puts me at risk to a day 1 lynch to confirm my alignment. My role is confirmable. I can help assist the town via same actions I would do as a leader without the elected position, and with my claim mafia now has a hard time dealing with me. HOW as a group, do we want to deal with all masons as a whole? I say this as simply put. Not everyone is going to be a mason. Anyone could be mason'd. With a role that is potentially in the hands of both scum and town alike we need to discuss this now. Anyone who has seen me play before recognizes my stance on role does not = alignment, and with a powerful role like mason this shit has to be dealt with sooner rather than later. So you really think that having like 30 hours of discussion of how we should apply our masons do outweigh the pros of having a mason mayor? why is that? especially. when we not even know if you're a) a mason and b) town. Your role is not even confirmable at this point. Scum buddy " YAY he mason" Also, you say that with your claim it is hard for the mafia to deal with you. More than if you would've been mayor? How so? The discussion "HOW as a group do we want to deal with all masons as a whole" didn't really need a roleclaim. It would have started automatically. Hell, you could even haven given some ideas within your campaign. Sorry, I don't see any single reason why you would jeopardize your election with a roleclaim? Just to start a discussion how to deal with masons is really little - none benefit. On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote: @jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post? I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later. Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit. Posted from phone, will post more later. You posted TL links. How is this coming from a spreadsheet? Do you have links in your spreadsheet? The mafia tag was a dig, yes. Your thoughts on BM and BC are right, though | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:02 EchelonTee wrote: @jay, it was a posting mistake, that would be a pretty sorry way to try and get town credit. I have spreadsheets and stuff, which is where it came from. its not good practice imo to post tells without substantiation, thus I would've rather not posted that tidbit. And what's with the -mafia tag, is that just a dig at my post? I don't like foolishness but that doesn't mean bm is bad. will return to this again later. Current opinion on BC: wouldn't it have been better to get elected then mason one of your bodyguards? To get a tell on them? You already had a good shot at getting elected... I don't see as this scum though, more like a weird gambit. Posted from phone, will post more later. why would I wait that long? I am able to use my ability at the start of a day cycle and have it last into the night I believe. The more use I get from it the better. However, keep in mind if I have been mason'd this long, everyone else who can mason also most likely has. I also get the names of the bgs very late into the night or into the next day (or start of day 2) based on if the mafia opt to sub into the bgs. | ||
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