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On January 14 2012 05:19 kitaman27 wrote:
BC, could you give a better explanation of why your claim benefits town? Is it simply to ensure that you are elected and have protection? You state that it is a polarizing topic that will generate discussion, but both scum and town can address the claim from both angles without giving up a whole lot of information about their alignment.
Why didn't you simply decide to run, get elected based on experience and popularity, and play the mason role as normal without public knowledge? To me, it seems unnecessary to open yourself up to a roleblock. The only benefit I can see is create a mason network for organizing blue information, but a day one claim is too early for this to be relevant and I don't see this as a beneficial plan currently with the thread of scum masons.
I don't think masons can be roleblocked, cause they operate during the day while the roleblocker is a creepy nightstalker.
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On January 14 2012 05:19 kitaman27 wrote:
BC, could you give a better explanation of why your claim benefits town? Is it simply to ensure that you are elected and have protection? You state that it is a polarizing topic that will generate discussion, but both scum and town can address the claim from both angles without giving up a whole lot of information about their alignment.
Why didn't you simply decide to run, get elected based on experience and popularity, and play the mason role as normal without public knowledge? To me, it seems unnecessary to open yourself up to a roleblock. The only benefit I can see is create a mason network for organizing blue information, but a day one claim is too early for this to be relevant and I don't see this as a beneficial plan currently with the thread of scum masons.
uh read all my posts, I have said at least once for sure to bum that i want to be elected but don't expect it.
As for why would I want to wander around in pm land with say (for arguments sake) 3 beginners. 1 of those beginners is red getting coached by his team to perform properly, the other 2 fuck up and get themselves lynched, or give out information to a mafia they mason down the line?
The potential of fucking up in pms is far higher in a game where the level of ability in pm land is far higher with some people than others. As for opening myself to a roleblock? if we carpet blanket decide no one responds to masons then boom, a roleblock is useless.
as for a mason network? if i mason you today, i can never talk to you again period. So any network would basically be a 1 day thing. 1 day talking to a specific player is far more useful as red as you can manipulate someone for a day then the risk of being caught is far lower. What would I do as town? fish for info and hope to find a scum? I can do that in thread just as easily as in pms. So making myself only able to do so here isn't a downside. As for both scum and town addressing without giving alot up? I would disagree. If everyone appears townieish on the subject and later someone starts acting somewhat shifty you have a basis of comparison and fubar them for it. Everyone has to take a stance which can fuck them now or later or not at all. The ones who dont get hit at all are the ones who are consistently townie. Could a red fake that? yes but they would have to be really good.
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Agh should have proof read that, I have another point for why BC's claim is protown. It forces discussion of the issue and it gives us something to talk about on day 1 instead of just discussing the usual things which often lead nowhere. As scum, the status quo of talking in circles day 1 is great, BC's claim interupts that though and suddenly puts people (especially scum) on the spot to talk about an issue that is not normally present day 1.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On January 14 2012 04:26 sandroba wrote:
3) I'm seriously considering supporting a mason mass claim day1. Mafia will have to claim it early if they ever want to use it and it gives us good basis for discussion. These big games fall rapidly out of control if we don't keep focus and this will give us something to go by.
On January 14 2012 05:19 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually, thinking about it, I'm for a mass-mason claim. If mafia want to start targeting masons, they're only forcing their masons into the spotlight...and it will keep any non-claimed-mason shenannies to a minimum I think.
I disagree with a mass mason claim. A mason is a town favored role. Denying the mafia mason is not the priority. I'd be more than happy if a scum mason tried to contact me, considering they are now pressured into openly sharing their reads. People tend to have loose lips when regarding pms, but if you always consider their motives and agenda then there is no problem. With a mass claim, the scum team is free to pick off or roleblock blues. Suppose there are 4 mason claims and two get shot night one and flip town. Does that tell us anything about the remaining two masons? Not really.
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On January 14 2012 04:15 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 03:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
BC: Well, obviously you're no GF this game, because you claimed a confirmable role. Unless I'm mistaken, scum can't be mason AND GF, yes? DT checks will be accurate on you...so there's that. Confirming your alignment, in my opinion, should be paramount because I find it EXTREMELY likely that you would have elected to be mason on the scum team (for reasons that should be obvious to you and several others.)
What's your plan on confirming your role? Are you going to out who you've masoned with? Are you going to let them do it at their own pace?
I will out my first mason shortly, I want the debate to however move towards how to deal with masons as a whole. I say this because you know from experience with me just how subtle a touch can be needed to manipulate/confuse someone. A mafia mason will have the experience of a team in manipulation whereas a town member has their own ability to run with. Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:01 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2012 03:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The Day 1 Important Discussion Post #1
Read this post fully before posting. It is something that everyone must read, and that everyone must comment on
That is right friends, this post as I am writing it is near one of the most important posts of this game day. You are going to ask? Why BC? Simple. I am about to do something that will cause people to yell and scream at me. I am roleclaiming.
I am mason
Note what I have done?
[1]
I have now put myself from the statistical chance of flipping a town aligned role of 80%ish and lowered it to a solid 50%.
I am now either 50% red or 50% blue.[/1.]
I am doing this for a few reasons.
[2]
1) in this game there could exist masons on both sides of the equation. As such dealing with them early is key as they work behind the scenes of the game. [/2]
[3]
2) it is a confirmable role, stress this point, ROLE. I can confirm my role at the beginning of a day cycle as opposed to at the end of a day cycle [/3]
3) I am being transparent. By giving this information now, reading me becomes far easier. There will never be the "is he blue trying to breadcrumb etc..?"
[4]
4) goes along with 3, however it outs one of the masons now. It stops the discussion later of people discussing all the people who are masons and who is believable late game whereas we can cover at least one of them now [/4]
This also sets the town up in a very advantageous way. Why you ask?
I am elected and now town knowingly knows I am active in pms.
I am not elected and not auto lynched by mayor and same information is known.
[5]
It also forces the mafia to deal with me as they have no idea what I am doing in pm land. Do they try and kill who I am talking to? Do they use their own masons and attempt to find out what I have said, etc....[/5]
This I feel is the most advantageous day 1 use of my ability. I have already used my mason use for the day and will say who I used it on after this post in the nearish future. I am leaving who it is out as the purpose is to generate discussion on my claim, not on who I chose to mason to. As to detail of why I did this aside from the general points I made? Everyone will have an opinion on this claim. Some good, some bad. People will have to have an opinion on this subject however. EVERYONE will have an opinion. Do not just post "wtf bc you dumb fuck why would you do this". This is a debate about me specifically being a mason and if I should be elected, not elected and lynched, or not elected and left for the mafia to deal with me.
All vets, all new players, all semi experienced players will have an opinion and it is needed. Anyone who fails to properly contribute on this matter. I have thought this claim out and realize that generally claiming day 1 is bad, however I feel at least with this mechanic and how it could be abused it should be discussed (especially with a high profile player such as myself possessing it) now and not later.
On the most important note that this post will do however is generate serious discussion. How do you all wish to proceed with a mason claim? Specifically my mason claim?
1) That's obviously bullshit. The chances to win lottery aren't 50% because you either win or you don't... but I see what you want to tell us 2) why? 3) no it's not. You're masoning someone. That someone is going to tell us if you masoned him. If you are a mafia you could tell us you masoned a mafiabuddy and of course your buddy will tell everyone you pm'ed him. 4) I don't realy care about what's going to happen with discussion later on if whatever might happen. I want to get a town mayor right now and for that reason I'd much rather see things tell give me something on your alignment than something that might or might not improve future-world 5) I'm pretty sure mafia will have to deal with you no matter what. That is if you're town. It's not like mafia is going not kill you because they think you might be a green instead of a blue and therefor you're no threat to them. Incorrect for you good sir. my role unlike anyone elses is confirmable. However my role is able to appear on both town and mafia sides thus rather than claiming "i am townie" and having the 80ish% chance of being one of the townie i am now firmly 50/50. My role is confirmable, my alignment isn't. You can clearly say "you were either 1 or the other before" however I have removed fake claiming almost entirely. Mafia do not benefit from me fake claiming this, nor do town. as for how I can confirm my role at the start? I mason at the beginning of a cycle not the end. As for saying its not confirmable? If i am a generic red and claim mason my mafia buddy says i masoned him. I die flip mafia goon he fucking dies. The only people who in their right mind would claim mason, are mason. As for also saying im not transparent? You know my role, I am even trying to discuss the role itself. If you do not care about the possible damages of a mafia mason late game and only care about the now then you are not playing in the best interests of this town. You must always look ahead. If there are roles that could potentially fuck town two days from now that wouldn't have if we talked about them today then we talk about it today. Period. as for mafia dealing with me? Say for arguments sake, there are 4 masons and 1 is red. I don't get elected and am not lynched by mayor. Mafia now has the option of killing me and thus reducing the number of people they can hide amongst and masons are confirmable. By claiming, town will always be analyzing me and determining if i am red or blue and choose to off me based on it. Mafia have the risk of killing me early and thus potentially outing one of their own early on or leaving me alone and hope the town ignores me. The longer I live the more benefit i am to the town and if i die by mafia shot I out one of their own slightly faster. Now. How do people wish to deal with masons as a whole? Do all discussions made get posted in thread? Do we opt to not talk to people who mason you, etc... This is an important matter, move just passed my personal claim and look at the role as a whole. Here is a link to a thread where masons were discussed before to get an idea why I think its important to discuss. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278946the situation proposed there is obviously different from this game but the important none the less.
The Mason this game is more just about whispering it looks like. It really isn't that strong in the game. They can't create circles or nothing. They can disseminate roles privately I suppose but the threat is always there that the mason is mafia. As you yourself might be BC. I don't really see too much power in the role as of the moment. Especially if you play the game as such as to ignore pms.
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On January 14 2012 05:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:09 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I vote we totally ignore this mason thing, and allow them to do what they will. Masons can help both sides, and can backfire for mafia. Additionally, the mafia masons have to worry about maintaining their townieness on two fronts. If the masons people use their intellect, we can make the mafia masons potentially backfire.
If their logs conflict at any point, we get a 1 for 1 trade. Mafia masons have the experience of an entire team to work manipulate someone. Townies only have themselves. The level of experience on one front is far more stacked then the other. By making people discuss what masons are allowed to do, or how they are allowed to act you instead cripple the mafia from the get go.
Yes and no. The townie doesn't have to worry about looking pro-town at any point in time, so conversations are very natural. The scum should have problems appearing townie to both the thread and the masoned person.
LotR mafia, Radfield was this sort of scum mason, and he chose Sandroba. We didn't get to talk to Radfield all day, because he had to explain his every action to some level of detail in his conversation with Sandroba.
And that's discluding the scenario where a townie masons a scum and forces him into speech.
If we mass claim masons while making them useless, they essentially become VT's, so the mafia have higher chances of hitting other blues.
Intense scrutiny is better all around. Play smart and masons are a very pro-town force.
On August 12 2011 06:20 flamewheel wrote:
Mafia
Your goal is to eliminate everyone else in the town. Your ability, as a group, is killing off whomever you decide on at night and knowing the role of each other player in your mafia. You may kill your own members. Mafia killing power will be determined when the game begins. You also must choose the Godfather, Roleblocker, Jack, and/or Framer from among yourselves. These [potentially] four Mafia power roles must be separately distributed, meaning one Mafia member can only possess one of these powers. If you do not choose by the start of night 1, I will randomly choose for you. Mafia will also have a certain number of Masons, which can be given to any Mafia (even those possessing other roles).
On January 13 2012 14:07 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
A couple notes about the set-up:
Elected roles gain detection immunity. This makes it worse for us if mafia get into one of these roles, as we have no way to DT check them. It also means that the GF probably won't run for office, or if he does, he'll drop out early. Between the mayor and the sheriff, the sheriff is the one who actually has power past day 1. So, one thing we can do, is vote in a player that we see as both a strong townie, and as being town in this game, into the mayor role solely for the purposes of protection. This applies to the sheriff too, but there's more responsibility on them as the game goes on due to the jailkeeper mechanic.
Also something to note, is that we can't trust vig claims, due to the possibility of mafia jack's, who would be able to shoot and not affect what KP would show up that night coming from the mafia.
We should also maybe talk about when to use our double lynches, but I don't think it's a huge deal until when the time comes that we might actually want to use them. We just need to be careful not to waste them.
Vote me into office, please.
I don't know if there's anything to make of this, but I feel like it was correcting.
No mafia have roles until they need them, so the GF will not be elected.
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Have You been to the new Sherlock Holmes? It's good. Anyway, Meapak's reasoning sounds reasonable and I feel stupid for not getting such basic thing.
BC, do You think You'd be dead if not elected into office today?
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Alright peeps here are the advantages of mass claim masons:
1) It forces mafia to come under a lot of scrutiny if they want to use the mason power. The plan is to watch these people closely and get a lot of the info out in the open, instead of allowing masons to operate in the shadows.
2) If mafia doesn't want the spot light they will probably not claim nor use their mason powers, which is very good for town. For this same reason we must not go on a witch hunt on the claimed masons, because they can be of any alignment and may be all town as well. We shall lynch people because of suspicious behavior, not because of trying to find mafia withing the masons.
3) There is not much of a downside to it. If mafia wants to waste their roleblock/kill on mason by all means be my guest. It further protects our really important blue roles which is great. If they choose to ignore them we are back in the same place we we're before with extra info as town that mafia opted not to use. Which is great.
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Remember that list? Forgot to ~Opz~.
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On January 14 2012 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Agh should have proof read that, I have another point for why BC's claim is protown. It forces discussion of the issue and it gives us something to talk about on day 1 instead of just discussing the usual things which often lead nowhere. As scum, the status quo of talking in circles day 1 is great, BC's claim interupts that though and suddenly puts people (especially scum) on the spot to talk about an issue that is not normally present day 1.
It's discussing the set-up, we don't really need that when we could be scum hunting.
There is enough information generated by elections already.
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On January 14 2012 05:35 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Agh should have proof read that, I have another point for why BC's claim is protown. It forces discussion of the issue and it gives us something to talk about on day 1 instead of just discussing the usual things which often lead nowhere. As scum, the status quo of talking in circles day 1 is great, BC's claim interupts that though and suddenly puts people (especially scum) on the spot to talk about an issue that is not normally present day 1. It's discussing the set-up, we don't really need that when we could be scum hunting. There is enough information generated by elections already.
It's not discussing the set-up only. Don't try to low the worth (word?) the BC claim fuss.
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On January 14 2012 05:31 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 04:26 sandroba wrote:
3) I'm seriously considering supporting a mason mass claim day1. Mafia will have to claim it early if they ever want to use it and it gives us good basis for discussion. These big games fall rapidly out of control if we don't keep focus and this will give us something to go by. Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:19 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually, thinking about it, I'm for a mass-mason claim. If mafia want to start targeting masons, they're only forcing their masons into the spotlight...and it will keep any non-claimed-mason shenannies to a minimum I think. I disagree with a mass mason claim. A mason is a town favored role. Denying the mafia mason is not the priority. I'd be more than happy if a scum mason tried to contact me, considering they are now pressured into openly sharing their reads. People tend to have loose lips when regarding pms, but if you always consider their motives and agenda then there is no problem. With a mass claim, the scum team is free to pick off or roleblock blues. Suppose there are 4 mason claims and two get shot night one and flip town. Does that tell us anything about the remaining two masons? Not really.
It's not about denying the mafia masons, it's about finding scum. It forces the mafia masons to claim with the other masons if they want to use them, that's true, so if scum masons opted to not use their masons then yes, we'd be denying the scum masons...but I'm more interested in the pressure it puts on the remaining claimed masons to "turn on the town"...because they're now in the spotlight. Roleblocking masons? Go for it! I'd rather the masons get roleblocked than our docs or cops.
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On January 14 2012 05:35 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:30 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Agh should have proof read that, I have another point for why BC's claim is protown. It forces discussion of the issue and it gives us something to talk about on day 1 instead of just discussing the usual things which often lead nowhere. As scum, the status quo of talking in circles day 1 is great, BC's claim interupts that though and suddenly puts people (especially scum) on the spot to talk about an issue that is not normally present day 1. It's discussing the set-up, we don't really need that when we could be scum hunting. There is enough information generated by elections already.
CC this is an important conversation. If you have nothing to add, that's fine...but read it all because a LOT of your scumhunting is going to come from THIS conversation.
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Current thoughts:
RE: BloodyC0bbler
I was going to vote for you're mayoral campaign, and than the Mason claim post came out.
The current problem I have with it is this. You laid out a lot of scenarios in the following posts explaining what would happen if you turned out flipping either Red Mason or Blue mason, and possible actions that you would have taken along responding to each particular path.
My problem is that if you are elected Mayor, the DT is unable to check you, confirming you're Blue/Red alignment. I don't think you would be the Godfather, simply because mafia putting out the Godfather so early would hurt them more than help them. I'm not sure what the thought was behind claiming Mason in the first place however, since I think BC was the leading runner in the Mayor campaign. I'm not sure what to think about it thus far.
RE: Macpo
Why are you pointing out that you are such a newb? In the post I recall, you really try to drive home the fact that you are a newb and that you wish people pardon you're small mistakes! Take responsibility for you're actions. I feel that you are being wishy-washy. Don't be wishy-washy.
RE: Meapek
I agree with you're sentiments on Palmar. I also tend to favor you're thoughts that people saying Palmar is scummy as Scummy play. I recall the game Election Mafia, and after reading the Mafia QT after the game, where the mafia didn't want to let Arctocod get an elected role for any reason. I find it suitable that, since Palmar's townplay is so vaunted, they want him ousted as soon as possible. What better way for the scumteam to get him out than a miss-lynch D1?
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On January 14 2012 05:25 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
BC's claim is actually pretty brilliant in my eye and here's why. Before claiming, BC was easily one of the top three candidates for mayor if not the top one. There's little doubt in my mind that BC would have gotten one of the elected positions. Now he could always claim once elected, however that's not a pressure position. He's got bodyguards and immunity from dt checks so there's no danger of dying if he's town, or being found out if he's scum.
However by claiming mid day like this it instantly puts a HUGE amount of pressure on him. All eyes are on him at the moment and his every action is being scrutinized. This is an extremely tough position to be in as scum. And so it begs the question, if BC is scum, what is the motivation for claiming like this? He had a great chance at being elected so why mess that up as scum?
With this claim BC is willingly taking the spotlight and the scrutiny. While he may be scum and have the biggest balls I've ever seen, I find it far more likely that he is doing his best to demonstrate his good intentions by willingly going on the hot seat. In conclusion, I can only think of town motives for claiming.
ok, so you're saying since he gets in the spotlight, there's no way he can be scum. disagree. From my humble point of view.
say scenario a) BC town. Starts a discussion about mechanics which he finds really important and tries to thwart mafia masons, as they are a lot better than our masons. Maybe gets mayor due to power. I don't see other benefits.
discussion could've been started on its own or even as part of his campaign, while still reatining his powers. IMO this would have been the way better play. He says himself he's in a bad position now.
scenario b) BC scum. Starts like 4 pages of shit storm. No one, No oooone discusses who should become mayor. Chaos is spreaded, we don't get a good read which mayors have town allignment, because we are busy discussing mechanics which we really should do in night 1 where the masons are passive anyway. This discussion just does harm. Seriously. Maybe gets mayor due to power claim.
So yeah, there is your motivation: starting a discussion at the election day, which we easily could have in night one. Spreading chaos and maybe even get a scum mayor while appearing as "the good guy".
I am still not saying that he's scum, but both scenarios work out and I still think scenario a could've been played better.
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On January 14 2012 05:33 Kurumi wrote:
Have You been to the new Sherlock Holmes? It's good. Anyway, Meapak's reasoning sounds reasonable and I feel stupid for not getting such basic thing.
BC, do You think You'd be dead if not elected into office today?
I feel like I might get shot? Mafia has to outweigh the importance of the mason role. Do they risk outing themselves faster by killing me, or keep me alive and hope that i get offed by town?
Do I think I will die, at some point yes, totally depends on how the game rolls.
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On January 14 2012 05:31 kitaman27 wrote:
I disagree with a mass mason claim. A mason is a town favored role. Denying the mafia mason is not the priority. I'd be more than happy if a scum mason tried to contact me, considering they are now pressured into openly sharing their reads. People tend to have loose lips when regarding pms, but if you always consider their motives and agenda then there is no problem. With a mass claim, the scum team is free to pick off or roleblock blues. Suppose there are 4 mason claims and two get shot night one and flip town. Does that tell us anything about the remaining two masons? Not really.
this is a really bad post imo.
1) no it's most certainly not town favoured. the mafia gets to prove read every single PM. while mafia can just target weak players in our team and thus spread confusing.
2) how on earth wouldn't it tell us something about the remaining masons? you say that townies claimed wrong? because in this scenario 4 masons are claimed, 2 are most certainly mafia, aren't they?
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On January 14 2012 05:42 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:33 Kurumi wrote:
Have You been to the new Sherlock Holmes? It's good. Anyway, Meapak's reasoning sounds reasonable and I feel stupid for not getting such basic thing.
BC, do You think You'd be dead if not elected into office today? I feel like I might get shot? Mafia has to outweigh the importance of the mason role. Do they risk outing themselves faster by killing me, or keep me alive and hope that i get offed by town? Do I think I will die, at some point yes, totally depends on how the game rolls.
Cool. I suppose You're going to try to confirm people through PMs, since fishing for blue roles is not something needed for a Town mason, right? Yeah, that's what everyone should just say open in the thread if it happens. Anyway. If You get elected we get very strong both town and scum player in the office, also You're really good in PM manipulation. The risks as for me, are still 50/50. If You're scum, we're fucked, if You're not, they're fucked.
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MASONS. FUCKING MASS CLAIM. RIGHT NOW. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE.
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On January 14 2012 05:47 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 05:42 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On January 14 2012 05:33 Kurumi wrote:
Have You been to the new Sherlock Holmes? It's good. Anyway, Meapak's reasoning sounds reasonable and I feel stupid for not getting such basic thing.
BC, do You think You'd be dead if not elected into office today? I feel like I might get shot? Mafia has to outweigh the importance of the mason role. Do they risk outing themselves faster by killing me, or keep me alive and hope that i get offed by town? Do I think I will die, at some point yes, totally depends on how the game rolls. Cool. I suppose You're going to try to confirm people through PMs, since fishing for blue roles is not something needed for a Town mason, right? Yeah, that's what everyone should just say open in the thread if it happens. Anyway. If You get elected we get very strong both town and scum player in the office, also You're really good in PM manipulation. The risks as for me, are still 50/50. If You're scum, we're fucked, if You're not, they're fucked.
so is it safer to have him not in office in your opinion?
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EPT
