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TL Mafia XXXVIII - Page 19

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 09 2011 18:18 GMT
#361
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill
Moderator
Kavdragon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 09 2011 18:46 GMT
#362
The fact that both mayor and pardoner is indeed a double threat, but it is a double threat to both mafia and town. I think that if we are smart about our election we should be able to get two townspeople into office.

On that note, I'd like to say a few things about the type of person we vote in as mayor.

When I made my campaign for mayor in Insane my main argument was that the office should be used to protect people who are good at analysis. I was being honest in that game, and I still think that this is important. However, Bum's mayorship in Insane made me realize something. The primary task for the mayor needs to be leadership. Never saw that one coming, right?

The mayor holds a lot more power than I had previously thought. People vote in a mayor, and when they do that, they give the mayor their trust. This means that the people will almost always give an ear to what the mayor is saying. He has the power to direct the town like no one else, and direction is something that is critical to a health environment for analysis. When the town is focused, it's next to impossible to for the mafia to interfere with it.

So I will say that above all, the mayor needs to be someone who can lead the town. Analysis is still a very good skill for the mayor, but I have to revise my opinion and put it after leadership. The mayor needs to be someone who can keep the town focused, and apply pressure to scum, and put down the spam that can choke the thread to death.
I'm currently on an indefinite hiatus from TL =(
kevconsim
Profile Joined November 2010
United States317 Posts
April 09 2011 18:50 GMT
#363
On April 10 2011 03:46 Kavdragon wrote:
The fact that both mayor and pardoner is indeed a double threat, but it is a double threat to both mafia and town. I think that if we are smart about our election we should be able to get two townspeople into office.

On that note, I'd like to say a few things about the type of person we vote in as mayor.

When I made my campaign for mayor in Insane my main argument was that the office should be used to protect people who are good at analysis. I was being honest in that game, and I still think that this is important. However, Bum's mayorship in Insane made me realize something. The primary task for the mayor needs to be leadership. Never saw that one coming, right?

The mayor holds a lot more power than I had previously thought. People vote in a mayor, and when they do that, they give the mayor their trust. This means that the people will almost always give an ear to what the mayor is saying. He has the power to direct the town like no one else, and direction is something that is critical to a health environment for analysis. When the town is focused, it's next to impossible to for the mafia to interfere with it.

So I will say that above all, the mayor needs to be someone who can lead the town. Analysis is still a very good skill for the mayor, but I have to revise my opinion and put it after leadership. The mayor needs to be someone who can keep the town focused, and apply pressure to scum, and put down the spam that can choke the thread to death.

i SECOND THAT all

I agree with this as i too saw this happening but was too lazy to make a long post.

Hence why i never should be mayor
Just to let you know that if you read really slow that you are in fact reading this beautifully written quote you will have totally wasted like 10 seconds of your life.
Kavdragon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 09 2011 18:53 GMT
#364
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


Hah, even if they weren't out to kill each other Mayor is a good role for anyone. (Yes, even an SK) The reason I ran for mayor last game was because it would insure that the mafia would never hit me, and my i would have a reason for not dieing. (It gave me the perfect place to hid my bulletproofness.)

On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.
I'm currently on an indefinite hiatus from TL =(
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 09 2011 18:55 GMT
#365
I dont think I fully agree with you Kav, leadership is vital, but I'd much rather have a strong analyst than a strong leader who is just wrong. Leadership *is* important, but frankly without a good set of reads and understanding of who is scum its worthless. To me that argument sounds to me like the argument that someone who dosn't want to put out much analysis would make. I know you aren't arguing for that, but I think that if we choose a mayor his scumhunting/analysis skills should be the first reason we choose him and his leadership the second.

Also I think a really major thing is being overlooked, the Mayor/Pardoner in this game are immune to dts until their BG's are dead, this means that its important that our choice of mayor be a player who is easily read, as opposed to a player who we would be hard pressed to figure out on posting habits alone
Moderator
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 09 2011 18:59 GMT
#366
As far as assassins go, I'm loath to expend a lynch on them, we need everything we have to wipe out scum. If an assassin is acting scummy he might get lynched, so they'll be mildly active, but really, their game is separate from ours, I just hope they dont go around throwing KP at the town. I dont mind if they hit scum.
Moderator
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 09 2011 19:02 GMT
#367
wow, that was a mess of a post. What I intended to say was that assassins will not necessarily act anti-town but they certainly wont act to pro town either, as they want to both avoid being lynched and avoid being killed by the mafia. The only occasion where I expect to see an extremely pro town Assassin if if one tries to grab the mayorship/pardoner.
Moderator
M0nsterChef
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada67 Posts
April 09 2011 19:03 GMT
#368
I'm also in favour of a strong analyst over a strong leader, simply because it should help achieve the final goal of hunting mafia. Keeping the town focused, and applying pressure to scum can all be done by careful and well thought out analysis.
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
April 09 2011 19:04 GMT
#369
On April 10 2011 03:53 Kavdragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.


No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
GGQ
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada2653 Posts
April 09 2011 19:07 GMT
#370
On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 03:53 Kavdragon wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.


No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.


I agree with this, and want to point out that one way to tell the difference between mafia and assassins is that mafia know each other and assassins only know themselves. So while both will want to avoid notice and will seem anti-town, the mafia will be the ones who seem to have extra information that they are hiding.
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
April 09 2011 19:22 GMT
#371
On April 10 2011 04:07 GGQ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:53 Kavdragon wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.


No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.


I agree with this, and want to point out that one way to tell the difference between mafia and assassins is that mafia know each other and assassins only know themselves. So while both will want to avoid notice and will seem anti-town, the mafia will be the ones who seem to have extra information that they are hiding.


Also, I think mafia would be more prone to trying to manipulate the town, whereas assassins would probably leave town be while focusing on finding the other assassins. So if you have two players kind've the same, but one is trying to manipulate the lynches and the other isn't, then you can differentiate them.
you gotta dance
Robellicose
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England245 Posts
April 09 2011 19:28 GMT
#372
On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote:
No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.


Interesting... We get a read on an assassin from analysis, then out them in public. Not only do we ensure that the other assassins are not focusing on a town target, but we could leave a watcher (if there are any... undisclosed rolecounts are nasty ) on the targets house... boom we get a probable read on possibly multiple assassins!
Portentious and Pretentious
Eiii
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2566 Posts
April 09 2011 19:29 GMT
#373
On April 10 2011 04:03 M0nsterChef wrote:
I'm also in favour of a strong analyst over a strong leader, simply because it should help achieve the final goal of hunting mafia. Keeping the town focused, and applying pressure to scum can all be done by careful and well thought out analysis.


I'm not even sure what benefits there are to having a 'leader' be mayor over an analysis, but I guess I'm not even 100% sure what being a strong leader in this game means. Seems to me that strong analysis is going to lead town much better than any dedicated leader will.
:3
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9245 Posts
April 09 2011 19:32 GMT
#374
On April 10 2011 04:29 Eiii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 04:03 M0nsterChef wrote:
I'm also in favour of a strong analyst over a strong leader, simply because it should help achieve the final goal of hunting mafia. Keeping the town focused, and applying pressure to scum can all be done by careful and well thought out analysis.


I'm not even sure what benefits there are to having a 'leader' be mayor over an analysis, but I guess I'm not even 100% sure what being a strong leader in this game means. Seems to me that strong analysis is going to lead town much better than any dedicated leader will.


Alignment should be the main focus. I would much rather have a mayor who I believe to be town, than a mayor who I believe to be good leader or analyzer. Obviously both would be preferable though.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 09 2011 19:34 GMT
#375
On April 10 2011 04:32 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 04:29 Eiii wrote:
On April 10 2011 04:03 M0nsterChef wrote:
I'm also in favour of a strong analyst over a strong leader, simply because it should help achieve the final goal of hunting mafia. Keeping the town focused, and applying pressure to scum can all be done by careful and well thought out analysis.


I'm not even sure what benefits there are to having a 'leader' be mayor over an analysis, but I guess I'm not even 100% sure what being a strong leader in this game means. Seems to me that strong analysis is going to lead town much better than any dedicated leader will.


Alignment should be the main focus. I would much rather have a mayor who I believe to be town, than a mayor who I believe to be good leader or analyzer. Obviously both would be preferable though.


This, I utterly and completely agree with this, those roles are far too powerful to risk in the hands of scum. Whoever is running better be really, really, obviously town, or they probably wont have my vote.

Moderator
Kavdragon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 09 2011 19:49 GMT
#376
Let me be more clear about what I mean.

We MUST have someone who can Lead.
We MUST have someone who can analyse.
We MUST have someone who is clearly town.


We can argue about the prioritization of those three, but we cannot do without all three.

Bumatlarge's play as Mayor last game showed us what happens when someone is good with analysis, but not with leading. (Yes, his analysis was good. He never had to show it to the town, so you didn't get to see it, but he pegged both Darm and Me as black, and he made several other good reads that game.)


GMarshal: I understand that anaylsis is important, and i fully agree that whoever we elect needs to be good at it, but we cannot elect someone who doesn't also lead. If we have someone who is great at leading, but leads us in the wrong direction, of course that's bad.


Kitaman: I understand that electing someone who is clearly town is important and i completely agree, but we cannot do it at the sacrifice of analysis and Leadership. If we elect someone who is an idiot who can't lead, but is obviously town we succeed only in preventing the mafia from gaining the office. That's not good enough. (Even then if he's really stupid with his analysis he'll end up helping the mafia...)


Can we agree on that?
I'm currently on an indefinite hiatus from TL =(
Kavdragon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1251 Posts
April 09 2011 19:51 GMT
#377
On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 03:53 Kavdragon wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.


No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.


Oh, and this is a really good point.
I'm currently on an indefinite hiatus from TL =(
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
April 09 2011 19:56 GMT
#378
kavdragon is saying a lot of useless bullshit trying to appear protown and basically his posts are this:

words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words

obviously no mafia would say THIS much "pro-town" stuff that everyone already knows amirite ;o????

i'm not buying it. you did this same thing in pokemafia which i hosted
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
April 09 2011 19:56 GMT
#379
On April 10 2011 04:51 Kavdragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 04:04 kitaman27 wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:53 Kavdragon wrote:
On April 10 2011 03:18 GMarshal wrote:
Also, I just realized, Assassins have a huge incentive to run as other assassins are out to kill them, and being mayor makes them really, really hard to kill


On the note of assassins, from what I understand, they are playing an entirely different game than us. Their win condition does not interfere with ours, and the only effect they will have is the collateral damage they will incur when they miss.

Do you think that we should hunt for them as well? The arguments that come to mind are that killing one will lower the KP during the night. On the other hand it distracts us from the only people that can beat us: the mafia.


No reason to lynch an assassin. Just analyze them and leave them to die by the other assassins.


Oh, and this is a really good point.

no one cares
RIP Aaliyah
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
April 09 2011 19:57 GMT
#380
On April 10 2011 03:15 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 10 2011 03:02 kitaman27 wrote:
On April 10 2011 02:44 TranceStorm wrote:
Furthermore, since the pardoner/mayor knows who the bodyguards are, meaning that the mafia could hit those roles easier.


This part gives the mafia more incentive to run as mayor than usual. The last thing they want is two town running around causing trouble, with no way to kill them. The fact that they are rewarded for running, but coming in second also gives them a nice bonus. The pardon ability is an awesome way to completely derail town focus when mafia is in a tough spot. I would feel real unwary having a pardoner around late game if I wasn't sure of his alignment.


This means we should focus our attentions on people who run and on really analyzing the hell out of our mayor/pardoner. Also I think that the mayor's power is being understated, he has a triple vote, in the hands of scum that would be lethally dangerous, bringing lylo much, much closer than it should be. Personally I think we should only vote for players we think are probably town, because the idea of having one or both of those power roles in the hands of the mafia is pretty worrying.

So yeah, let me state the obvious, make damn sure you are voting for pro town players, as these roles are pretty damn powerful.



what happens if the mafia doesn't run
RIP Aaliyah
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