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United States22154 Posts
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On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote:
with 30, i doubt there are 8
5-6 is much more likely, with 6 being more likely, unless they start with roles (which I doubt)
due to the mechanics
5 with an SK I would believe would be balanced as well, but i'm seeing 6 and 2.5-3kp, or something like "you may not kill 3 people" as 3 kp is a bit much right now
we will learn soon enough. It is also possible they get to pick to be permanent, or nightly. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic. Lets assume it is permanent, and they pick a GF and a role reverser
they'd still have 1.5kp which would round up to 2 afaik
The best thing to do is to not come out if you're a hatter, for sure
If you're a cop, I wouldn't come out unless you have a guilty, or are pressured
I wouldn't ever claim as medic, unless someone you protected and saved is up for lynch
Veteran is OK to claim, many setups have bulletproofs claiming first
Vigilante is OK to claim TOMORROW if you claim who you are going to kill - Don't claim today, as you can't kill tonight
I'm going to address this piece by piece ok?
On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote:
with 30, i doubt there are 8
5-6 is much more likely, with 6 being more likely, unless they start with roles (which I doubt)
due to the mechanics
5 with an SK I would believe would be balanced as well, but i'm seeing 6 and 2.5-3kp, or something like "you may not kill 3 people" as 3 kp is a bit much right now
I agree 5-6 seems reasonable and generally scum dont get roles, at least in my experience, however this isn't that relevant. Also 3 kp would be reasonable especially considering how the mechanics of this game work
On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote:
we will learn soon enough. It is also possible they get to pick to be permanent, or nightly. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic. Lets assume it is permanent, and they pick a GF and a role reverser
they'd still have 1.5kp which would round up to 2 afaik
you completely misunderstood the OP. Here is what happens, night 1 mafia get to choose a GF (I'm assuming one right now for explanation purposes), this does not cost them a KP, rather as long as the GF is alive they have 1 kp +.5 for every other mafia member alive (Assuming 5 others, that would be 3.5kp). These KP can be expended as usual to murder people, if they choose however they can sacrifice .5 of a kp to use certain powers and 1 kp to role reverse, in this setup its actually as efficient for them to go ahead an just shoot people as it is to reverse them, save in a few circumstances. Does this make sense? if we assume mafia is not going to use any of their powers the first night then that means 3-4 people will die tonight, barring medic saves and vets.
On February 23 2011 15:23 gryffindor wrote:
The best thing to do is to not come out if you're a hatter, for sure
If you're a cop, I wouldn't come out unless you have a guilty, or are pressured
I wouldn't ever claim as medic, unless someone you protected and saved is up for lynch
Veteran is OK to claim, many setups have bulletproofs claiming first
Vigilante is OK to claim TOMORROW if you claim who you are going to kill - Don't claim today, as you can't kill tonight
The best thing to do if you are a blue is NOT TO CLAIM. Claiming makes you a target, vets should NOT claim as if they don't and appear pro town then they attract mafia shots and make them waste kp which is their job. Medics should never claim, Vigis can claim before they fire I suppose but since mafia also controls KP it would be easy to fake. Detectives should probably only claim if they check someone who isn't in the spotlight and get scum, since frames and covers make it easy for scum to fool them into killing town. (Actually I'm almost a proponent of lynching the DT first then the alleged scum, as this way you can check if the DT is actually a DT or a mafia trying to pull a fast one, we'll debate it if the topic ever comes up). Hatters should not claim and should be cautious with their bomb placement.
generally DO NOT CLAIM TO ANYONE, claiming makes you a target, if you are an useful role then this is bad
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On February 23 2011 23:13 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 19:21 ohN wrote:'Just finished catching up My thoughts: Cells are a good idea but GMarshal giving us predetermined groups that he thinks we should work with is pretty scummy. They weren't just like 1-3, 4-6 either, he moved them around to his liking. Not a good candidate for day1 lynch because I don't feel that that alone is enough to incriminate him but definitely FoS on him. I dont see how people think + Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 12:40 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so like Gmarshal said, we shouldn't depend on blues this game. Especially since RoL specifically said this game was to punish us for what happened in Salam. At the same thing, I don't think the mafia powers are all THAT powerful. Let them frame away, that's one less death to worry about. PMs are allowed but PLEASE don't just give out crazy info in them (roleclaim, etc.). The point of town is not to have 1 leader controlling everything but small circles that are separated so that if one goes down, the others can still operate. Let's all work together and not let a few players handle all the work (which always seems to happen). This means contributing pleaseee. is scummy. Him noting that mafia isn't that powerful is something anybody could point out. Role reversal has huge potential but only if mafia has a confirmed blue. They still have to give up an entire kp to use it so they will not be open to using it without being absolutely sure. Role reversal on a townie does nothing except waste a kp. I'll probably end up voting for someone who hasn't posted anything useful or that guy who thought annul was inactive(lol). If you want feel free to RNG the groups, I just made it so each group had at least one veteran player so that new players could get good feedback, if you want you could slide one of the columns up or down a random number to change the groups around also Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 17:20 gryffindor wrote:
Easily.
It leads to the sharing of information, which the mafia need in this setup to properly use their abilities of role reversing the town into submission, as opposed to straight up kill power.
If they know you are a Veteran, they can make you a PGO
We don't need cells, we have claiming
If you want scumhunting, do it yourself
The general plan for a town in a whisper/PM setup is
1) Wait on a confirm
2) Massclaim to the confirmed
3) Profit I have issues with this post of your gryffindor, 1 it looks suspiciously like the plan that ended up with town getting raped in salem, 2 what benfit do you get from a mass claim when the DTs can be easily fooled? All the other roles don't require any kind of exposure as Vigi and Hatters can use their own discretion and medics should have clear cut choices. What does mass claiming to a "confirmed" (you still haven't set out a mechanism to confirm a townie) do for them other than expose them to getting hit by mafia? Also I agree that if you want scumhunting you should do it yourself, but like many other things it benefits from peer review, again this is partially to stimulate activity as in PM games newer players often feel left out of the backstage conversations and post less for that reason, its extremely frustrating in that situation. Also assuming the setup is 5-7 mafia they still have 3-4 kill points which is average for a 30 person game, this means that they don't need to use their role reversing powers successfully to win, they just need to slaughter the town, if they can do that by using role reversal then it will be faster, but ultimately they don't have to. TBH I think you are town, I just think your plan would cost us the game if we were to follow it
Actually, I disagree with you COMPLETELY, which is why i'm not only keeping you as my top scumread, but keeping my vote on you as well.
The level of bullshit that you are trying to pervade into people's minds is astonishing.
You, in a PM setup, are against claiming to people who are confirmed? How anti-town can you get? You then go onto say that I haven't provided any ways of confirmation, when we have Detectives, Vigilantes, and Medics. Detective checks we will have to take with a grain of salt, considering kill power vs lawyering/framing, but we will be able to judge that BASED on that kill power in and of itself, the vigilantes should be calling shots tomorrow on D2 for the 2nd night, earning medic protecting, and the medics should be able to whisper their saved players... all of these things can confirm people... problem?
What does "being left out" of the PM game and its frustration have anything to do with scumhunting, or lack thereof? I'm not following your train of thought here.
They won't have over 6 mafia, and they won't have over 3kp. There is no way it won't have 6, with 2-3KP. That's how it will be, or else it won't be balanced.
I'd also ask you to completely abandon any idea you have for "creating cells" when it is d1 in a large game in which we will get confirmed townies.
On February 23 2011 23:25 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 17:26 gryffindor wrote:
Easily.
It leads to the sharing of information, which the mafia need in this setup to properly use their abilities of role reversing the town into submission, as opposed to straight up kill power.
If they know you are a Veteran, they can make you a PGO
We don't need cells, we have claiming
If you want scumhunting, do it yourself Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 18:51 CubEdIn wrote:
But yeah I don't think "cells" are a good idea. If you are sharing sensitive information, mafia may know a great deal of it. If you are not, then they don't really have much use. Using the thread for throwing around ideas is much more useful as it can uncover scum faster in case of a slip. PMs are a town weapon. The fact that multiple people are discouraging their use is concerning. Town should be able to extract information from mafia, not the other way around. You force the scum to give an opinion when you directly contact them 1:1. People complain that mafia have too much influence through PMs. How about you use that against them and identify the motives behind what they are saying instead? I don't like the idea of being told which two people I should talk to, but I certainly wouldn't advocate keeping all discussion in the thread.
I take it you didn't read my strategic post
On February 23 2011 17:26 gryffindor wrote:
The general plan for a town in a whisper/PM setup is
1) Wait on a confirm
2) Massclaim to the confirmed
3) Profit
This is how you play
The amount of misinterpretation/not seeing the whole picture/poor play (at the least) here is really startling me
I also find the "PMing about spam" to be offensive. If someone has a problem with spam, please step forward and address the town. If nothing new was being brought to the table, or arguments panned out, I would understand, but we are coordinating what to do as a town. Basically, I would like to formally complain about the people complaining about the activity - If you can't handle the game, replace out in my opinion. You signed up for a mafia game, didn't you? Thanks!
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-Spam is bad, makes it harder to go over someone's posts. Please tone it down.
-GMarshal's plan: I attempted to start one in Orgah* but it collapsed. I feel it is a good idea but his implementation was bad/scummy. I would like to hear how he came about those groups? 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 etc. is the logical option with no chance of mafia setting it up. Remember these groups should just be for general discussion and not anything stupid like roleclaiming. Assume that one of your group is mafia.
-As such, I'm going to try and form a cell with why and lastargument. I would encourage others to do the same. Deaths will obviously impact on cells, but that can be overcome by merging them. Or possibly even reforming groups at the start of every day? For example if people 2,3,5 are dead the first group would now be: 1, 4, 6
-We can rely on cops to some extent by counting KP. People seem to have forgotten that we can guess how much total KP the mafia have and use that to our advantage to work out if powers were used or not.
-DTs are reliable as they will know when role reverser was used on them and are unaffected by frame/cover because they check role as opposed to alignment. Only problem here is the unknown number of godfathers.
-Sorry if anything here was said earlier, I just skimmed through million pages of spam.
*Yes I was mafia in that game, but I did it to appear town.
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sigh... already having to doublepost... thanks for posting right in front of me. I'm not going to quote it, to save space, but your thoughts on the setup may be skewed. If you'd have carefully read my post a little better, you'd realize that I basically admit I'm not sure whether or not they get to select things nightly or only once. Also, I'm fairly certain they could have more than one Godfather in this setup.
From my interpretation, they use KP nightly. Address RoL here if you need it to be addressed, publicly, asking him in the thread - I've pestered him enough.
I love discussing the possible setups with you, but it is really giving you an easy way out of actually scumhunting, so lets direct the power roles less and actually try to scumhunt, ok?
I'm also taking a break from posting
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 23 2011 23:42 gryffindor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 23:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 23 2011 19:21 ohN wrote:'Just finished catching up My thoughts: Cells are a good idea but GMarshal giving us predetermined groups that he thinks we should work with is pretty scummy. They weren't just like 1-3, 4-6 either, he moved them around to his liking. Not a good candidate for day1 lynch because I don't feel that that alone is enough to incriminate him but definitely FoS on him. I dont see how people think + Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 12:40 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so like Gmarshal said, we shouldn't depend on blues this game. Especially since RoL specifically said this game was to punish us for what happened in Salam. At the same thing, I don't think the mafia powers are all THAT powerful. Let them frame away, that's one less death to worry about. PMs are allowed but PLEASE don't just give out crazy info in them (roleclaim, etc.). The point of town is not to have 1 leader controlling everything but small circles that are separated so that if one goes down, the others can still operate. Let's all work together and not let a few players handle all the work (which always seems to happen). This means contributing pleaseee. is scummy. Him noting that mafia isn't that powerful is something anybody could point out. Role reversal has huge potential but only if mafia has a confirmed blue. They still have to give up an entire kp to use it so they will not be open to using it without being absolutely sure. Role reversal on a townie does nothing except waste a kp. I'll probably end up voting for someone who hasn't posted anything useful or that guy who thought annul was inactive(lol). If you want feel free to RNG the groups, I just made it so each group had at least one veteran player so that new players could get good feedback, if you want you could slide one of the columns up or down a random number to change the groups around also On February 23 2011 17:20 gryffindor wrote:
Easily.
It leads to the sharing of information, which the mafia need in this setup to properly use their abilities of role reversing the town into submission, as opposed to straight up kill power.
If they know you are a Veteran, they can make you a PGO
We don't need cells, we have claiming
If you want scumhunting, do it yourself
The general plan for a town in a whisper/PM setup is
1) Wait on a confirm
2) Massclaim to the confirmed
3) Profit I have issues with this post of your gryffindor, 1 it looks suspiciously like the plan that ended up with town getting raped in salem, 2 what benfit do you get from a mass claim when the DTs can be easily fooled? All the other roles don't require any kind of exposure as Vigi and Hatters can use their own discretion and medics should have clear cut choices. What does mass claiming to a "confirmed" (you still haven't set out a mechanism to confirm a townie) do for them other than expose them to getting hit by mafia? Also I agree that if you want scumhunting you should do it yourself, but like many other things it benefits from peer review, again this is partially to stimulate activity as in PM games newer players often feel left out of the backstage conversations and post less for that reason, its extremely frustrating in that situation. Also assuming the setup is 5-7 mafia they still have 3-4 kill points which is average for a 30 person game, this means that they don't need to use their role reversing powers successfully to win, they just need to slaughter the town, if they can do that by using role reversal then it will be faster, but ultimately they don't have to. TBH I think you are town, I just think your plan would cost us the game if we were to follow it Actually, I disagree with you COMPLETELY, which is why i'm not only keeping you as my top scumread, but keeping my vote on you as well. The level of bullshit that you are trying to pervade into people's minds is astonishing. You, in a PM setup, are against claiming to people who are confirmed? How anti-town can you get? You then go onto say that I haven't provided any ways of confirmation, when we have Detectives, Vigilantes, and Medics. Detective checks we will have to take with a grain of salt, considering kill power vs lawyering/framing, but we will be able to judge that BASED on that kill power in and of itself, the vigilantes should be calling shots tomorrow on D2 for the 2nd night, earning medic protecting, and the medics should be able to whisper their saved players... all of these things can confirm people... problem?
Suppose I'm a scum and I call out my "vig" shot on coag. I proceed to night hit coag, while reducing the mafia kp with the role abilities. A medic protects me and I start to receive a mass role claim because I am "confirmed". Yes, problem.
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It's a nightly KP formula. Each night the mafia will choose which if any powers they would like to use. Each power detracts from their nightly KP and powers can be used more than once a night. IE: 2 role blocks can be used, as long as they sacrifice the necessary KP. The idea is that one of your members will be busy that night framing/blocking/covering someone so they won't be able to help kill someone.
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United States22154 Posts
Ok thats it I've tried to be reasonable and explain my reasoning, yet you seem to refuse to read my posts, you brilliant strategy is what ended in town slaughter in Salem, if you haven;t noticed RoL alluded to this game's setup punishing that strategy, now you are pushing for a strategy that a mod essentially pointed out is a bad idea... so either you want us to lose or you aren't thinking.
So answer me this, what benefit do blues get out of claiming to confirmed townies? how can you guarantee to me that someone is a townie? (vig's aren't sure due to mafia controlling KP, medic protected people I might trust more but all it takes are two mafia willing to stick their neck out to get a nice list of all the blues in the game following your plan.
I'll say it again, DO NOT CLAIM. PMs are to be used for information gathering and analysis discussion, to poke and prod and force mafia to slip up.
Also "this is how you play" is not a good explanation of why its a good idea, while I gave plenty of reasons why it is a poor one.
since people seem to be dissatisfied with my sorting I made new groups these are simply 1,2,3 then 4,5,6 etc. No one is obliged to use them, but for new players especially it helps to have people to bounce ideas off. It also leads to people being more pressured to post (does this make you people more happy now? Is it clear that this isn't some dastardly mafia plan to control the flow of ideas?)
1.) Coagulation LSB Barundar
2.) CubEdIn Jackal58 Kenpachi
3.) darmousseh annul gryffindor
4.) GMarshal Beneather icemac
5.) OriginalName , JBright ,seRapH
6.) ohN ,astroorion, Foolishness
7.) Gofarman ,Conversion ,kitaman27
8.) kevconsim ,ICanFlyLow ,Mr. Wiggles
9.) chaoser LunarDestiny Ser Aspi
10.) deconduo why LastArgument
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United States22154 Posts
On February 23 2011 23:48 gryffindor wrote:
I love discussing the possible setups with you, but it is really giving you an easy way out of actually scumhunting, so lets direct the power roles less and actually try to scumhunt, ok?
This I can agree with, although I think we are both somewhat responsible for going off on blue directing.
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Comparing groups:
Old Groups
+ Show Spoiler +1. Coagulation, LSB, gryffindor
2 GMarshal, seRapH, OriginalName
3 Mr. Wiggles, ICanFlyLow, kevconsim
4 Barundar, LastArgument , why
5 darmousseh, Ser Aspi, Kenpachi
6 Gofarman, chaoser, ohN
7 astroorion, CubEdIn, Jackal58
8 Beneather, annul, Conversion
9 icemac, Foolishness, LunarDestiny
10 deconduo, kitaman27, JBright
New Groups
+ Show Spoiler +1.) Coagulation LSB Barundar
2.) CubEdIn Jackal58 Kenpachi
3.) darmousseh annul gryffindor
4.) GMarshal Beneather icemac
5.) OriginalName , JBright ,seRapH
6.) ohN ,astroorion, Foolishness
7.) Gofarman ,Conversion ,kitaman27
8.) kevconsim ,ICanFlyLow ,Mr. Wiggles
9.) chaoser LunarDestiny Ser Aspi
10.) deconduo why LastArgument
While I think these new groups are slightly more random i bolded groups that remain relatively the same. Im not sure if it means anything but well you never know .
I still dont plan on using them as Scum infiltration is increadably likely and really not worth the misinformation overall.
However it is still possible to scum fish by analyzing their responses and looking at how some are fishy.
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United States22154 Posts
again, I did the new groups by going 1,2,3 then 4,5,6 and the old groups by essentially picking randomly and making sure there was at least one experienced player in each. Anyway if you don't like the groups feel free to not use them.
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We still have people who havent posted as well I think we need to start pressureing them.
The following need to post:
icemac
JBright
astroorion
ICanFlyLow
Gofarman
:/
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ICanFlyLow is in Sweden so probably won't be able to post until evening CET (~3 hours from now)
The rest are in timezones where they should have been around after the game started.
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What will Detective return if he investigates a vanilla mafia? Same for a vanilla townie?
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Good day fellow scum hunters. Sorry for the late start but I bowl on Tuesday night.
There are quite a few people in this game that I have never seen before so it's going to take me a bit to wrap my head around everything everybody has said so far.
My thoughts on cells:
Thoroughly undecided. If their only reason for being is analysis keep it in the thread.
I'm at work right now so I might not be able to post as much as I'd like, but I'll be in here this evening.
gryffindor why on earth would you claim vet? I did it in XXXVI to avoid being lynched but man that was pointless. You're making the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
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While I do like the idea of cells and discussing about them, at this point, it's detracting from everything else town needs to do, feel like it's just two town (GM and Gryff) butting heads over an issue you both won't agree on. It gives a chance for mafia to seem like they are contributing too by just dropping in and commenting. Points we've established about it:
1) Grfy thinks it's GM fishing for blues and that the plan doesn't work for town
2) GM thinks it will promote activity and that it's a pro-town move
(did I get this right?)
Let's take a step back and lets move on to pressuring inactives.
The newbies I can understand, but JBright, you really should have said something by now.
##Vote: JBright
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United States22154 Posts
so, why, where you at? I want to see you post!
##Vote why
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A couple of more things. These are just an assembly of thoughts as I go through the thread to catch up. I've ignored anything before the day post.
-I spotted this post by coag:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 15:41 Coagulation wrote:
people who havnt posted yet.
icemac
JBright
ohN
astroorion
ICanFlyLow
CubEdIn
Ser Aspi
Gofarman
It came to my attention because I wasn't on it when I should have been. However I then realised I hadn't seen any other posts by him. On checking his history he has FIFTY posts in the thread and only one stood out to me....
Even going over again I can't see any non-spam post.
-I like this post by ohn:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 19:21 ohN wrote:'Just finished catching up My thoughts: Cells are a good idea but GMarshal giving us predetermined groups that he thinks we should work with is pretty scummy. They weren't just like 1-3, 4-6 either, he moved them around to his liking. Not a good candidate for day1 lynch because I don't feel that that alone is enough to incriminate him but definitely FoS on him. I dont see how people think + Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 12:40 chaoser wrote:
Ok, so like Gmarshal said, we shouldn't depend on blues this game. Especially since RoL specifically said this game was to punish us for what happened in Salam. At the same thing, I don't think the mafia powers are all THAT powerful. Let them frame away, that's one less death to worry about. PMs are allowed but PLEASE don't just give out crazy info in them (roleclaim, etc.). The point of town is not to have 1 leader controlling everything but small circles that are separated so that if one goes down, the others can still operate. Let's all work together and not let a few players handle all the work (which always seems to happen). This means contributing pleaseee. is scummy. Him noting that mafia isn't that powerful is something anybody could point out. Role reversal has huge potential but only if mafia has a confirmed blue. They still have to give up an entire kp to use it so they will not be open to using it without being absolutely sure. Role reversal on a townie does nothing except waste a kp. I'll probably end up voting for someone who hasn't posted anything useful or that guy who thought annul was inactive(lol).
I haven't played with him before but thats a good start.
-gryff:
+ Show Spoiler +On February 23 2011 12:46 gryffindor wrote:
I'm a veteran
claims to me
I don't like this at all. The whole banter between gryff and gmarshal seems off as well. In addition I've gotten 2 PMs this entire game:
Original Message From gryffindor:
do you have any reads so far?
what do you believe i am aligned?
Original Message From GMarshal:
Hi!
So,I'm curious as to what your reads are this game, care to share?
Disturbingly similar.
-annul: Something feels off about his posts as well. He seems to be a lot more spammy than usual. He suggests lynching chaoser because one of his posts was scummy, but doesn't elaborate why. He disagrees with the idea circles. He hasn't really made a single substantial post as far as I can see.
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On February 24 2011 01:17 deconduo wrote:I don't like this at all. The whole banter between gryff and gmarshal seems off as well. In addition I've gotten 2 PMs this entire game: Show nested quote +Original Message From gryffindor:
do you have any reads so far?
what do you believe i am aligned? Show nested quote +Original Message From GMarshal:
Hi!
So,I'm curious as to what your reads are this game, care to share? Disturbingly similar.
Ive aloso received a similer PM from Gmarshal.
Original Message From GMarshal:
So, what are your reads on chaoser, gryffindor and annul?
I didnt reply to it as i really didnt need to know what to make of it.
He seems to want reads to be isolated when they should be posted in the thread.
This is seems scummier and scummier to me but i will reserve my judgement for now.
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United States22154 Posts
You guys are not the only people to revive PMs from me, I also PMed Gryffindor (didn't get back to me), chaoser, deconduo, kitaman27 ,darmousseh (there may be 1 or 2 more I don't remember off the top of my head) I've also replied to PMs from other people, this is a way of forcing people to voice opinions by asking them directly, I don't see what your issue with me using PMs as a tool is, its a way for me to see what people are thinking and pressure them to post by making sure they cannot ignore the thread/questions.
This is an issue how? I could see it if my PM read something like "hey I'm a vigi, tell me your role, NOW!" but this is just asking for opinions
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On February 24 2011 01:34 OriginalName wrote:
He seems to want reads to be isolated when they should be posted in the thread.
This is seems scummier and scummier to me but i will reserve my judgement for now.
-_-
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EPT
