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I'm in.
Did you port this setup or does it need balancing? It seems really powerful for mafia unless there's at least two free mason pairs. It doesn't specify in the rules does mafia KP ever go up?
Roleblocking mafia KP seems really swingy - if the roleblocker finds one and notes that kills stopped (obviously), they don't even necessarily want to point the scum finger at that target. Stifling the KP indefinitely seems immensely powerful while trying to find the other scum/godfather.
Just my first thoughts off the top of my head.
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On June 27 2010 05:04 DarthThienAn wrote: The whole mafia KP + roleblocking thing is a part of the game, helps balance against the mafia and can work for both sides - it all depends on how well the roleblocker plays. This is why I say it's swingy. It makes the roleblocker ridiculously powerful. It's like a super powered medic that needs to find a mafia among presumably several (and can just stick to that target) rather than trying to match up and predict who the mafia wants to kill.
One of the tenants of mafia game design is that you don't want too much power in any one role.
Compare what a game would look like if the roleblocker(s) eventually mafia vs roleblocker(s) never finding mafia. If the games play out too much differently, we're playing a game more of luck than of mafia. Some chance is fine, this just seems huge.
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On June 27 2010 06:42 DarthThienAn wrote: ... in a 20 person game, if the town mislynches for 3 days straight and mafia gets all their hits through, etc., town usually loses anyway, amirite? 3 mislynch is the threshold for mafia victory in 5 day games (eg mini mafia). 20 players usually looking for 5 mislynch varying slightly with other speed of game factors.
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We should be able to fill the roster. Don't mess with the game balance to start a bit early - fill it as designed.
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If you're a free mason, you can't be recruited (it just fails, godfather doesn't even know it failed). Therefore, as a free mason you don't want to reveal that you are since the mafia will not choose to recruit you (and thus not wasting a move) and kill you.
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Hey Godfather. How about you just give yourself up? That'll give this game 19 winners. Take one for the team.
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Also, since I can't place votes, just know that I'm voting for Chezinu. He signed up first. He obviously knew this was coming. He's in cahoots with DTA. You really believe that the roles were random? Maybe we'll get 'lucky'.
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On June 30 2010 16:36 DarthThienAn wrote: The voting thread will go up when Day 1 actually starts. ^^ See? Stalling. Cahoots.
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On June 30 2010 17:11 DarthThienAn wrote: YellowInk (Townie Town Idiot) has been modkilled. I wish I had been around before you said that it was a joke. I would've gotten to do a victory lap for achieving my victory conditions by the mod. SEE? CAHOOTS!
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Has anyone noticed how much information Korynne has been providing us?
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Well, I wasn't recruited, and Chezinu is still the godfather. Lets get this party started.
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Also, I can vouch for Korynne not being the godfather. I have it on multiple sources that Korynne is female.
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I don't know if I should be more flattered for being called an up and coming superstar or sad that I'm a boobless Korynne... why do you depress me so?
.-- .... . .-. . / .. ... / -.-. .... . --.. / .- -. -.-- .... --- .-- ..--.. / .. / -- .. ... ... / .... .. -- .-.-.-
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On July 01 2010 12:23 Korynne wrote: I don't mean in this game, BrownBear, I just mean in general.
Also YellowInk you just got demoted to BM/Chez level for using morse code.
Now can we post some real content plz plz? lol did you at least read it?
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A few quick points I want to stick into this flurry.
Mass roleclaim is bad. Bad Chez Bad. Hang the Chez for even suggesting. Cahoots!
Stalemates are not good for town. They're not terrible, either, IF the godfather is dead, but since as a non-roleblocking townie it's hard for one to be sure if we're actually in a stalemate or perhaps had a lucky medic/vet in between two role blocks.
Double lynches should be used in the mid to late game, not in the early game. It's a town empowering ability. Right now we'd be shooting blanks. Later we'll need them to clean up the scum.
If I were the godfather, I would have recruited a top player. Remember that we're going to have a very difficult time lynching any of the skilled players to begin with. While the numbers are thin, they're going to play no differently from any other townie. It doesn't matter that we know who the skilled players are, I am not about to bet the game on lynching L or Korynne or BM tonight. If we were to start lynching these players, the godfather would then switch to going after middling players, so there's not much advantaged to be gained by making a plan to lynch top players.
Ok, so that last point wasn't so quick.
Recruiting games are tough. You can't trust anyone - unfortunately especially those who get named as 'strong'.
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On July 01 2010 12:59 Korynne wrote: Also I just realized a really good way for godfather to tell mafia that he is the godfather without letting the town know. Should I reveal this information to town so we can look out for it? Or should I only reveal it when I see a player do it? Sit on it.
If the godfather knows it, it's risky for him to do so anyway.
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Moving on to 'how do we win?'
As should be clear, the godfather needs to be the primary target. Also keep in mind that the mafia don't know who the godfather is. This means the mafia may take out the godfather for us. How do we accomplish this?
Activity levels in the early game are absolutely crucial. I don't care what you're saying, I just want you talking.
If you were a noob-level godfather, you might choose to say almost nothing. The mafia aren't going to hit you because you're not helping the town - they are glad to have inactives hanging out. With an anti-inactivity policy in effect, you're forcing the godfather to talk. So the level 1 godfather would be talking at some moderate amount, but the godfather doesn't want to help the town either, so there are traditional tells to watch for. Being aware of this, just like watching for usual scum, we want to keep a close eye on the middle-of-the-road players that are contributing minimally but being active in the thread. The level 2 godfather might be very active to escape any such scrutiny, though probably not spouting out a plan like I am here.
But we don't even force the godfather to play at this level unless we force everyone to talk. Now since we KNOW almost everyone is town aligned right now, we can rightfully expect almost every single player to be active in thread and putting forth their ideas. Therefore, any player that is playing sub-optimally right now needs to be lynched. If we don't get rid of the inactives now, we'll be plagued with them the rest of the game - and even a DT check won't save their face since they can get recruited.
If we force the godfather to be active, they may get hit by the mafia. If the godfather remains inactive or suspiciously unproductive, we'll lynch for it.
Speaking of DTs, yes, it is worth outing yourself immediately to finger the godfather.
Then, once the godfather is dead, we'll be at a somewhat informed state of the game and be able to immediately go after scum. Hopefully we'll take out a couple scum along the way anyhow - but this should not be a priority. After all, lynching a scum and having one recruited from our ranks is a net loss to us.
Lets get to it, shall we?
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@ proper use of roleblockers discussion
Right now, if I were a roleblocker, I would be targeting Korynne, L, BM, or someone I deemed a strong player. As I stated earlier, if I were godfather, I would have gone ahead and recruited a strong player on night 0. If you block one of us and find that the night hit was blocked, you may have just found yourself some scum. Until the godfather is dead, you can use that person as a block target every other night to reduce the hits. Once the godfather is dead you may want to claim and finger depending on the circumstances - though of course blocking someone and no night kill could mean a medic or another roleblocker or a vet, so this isn't 100% of course.
My declaring this strategy will probably also make it less likely he wants to recruit the top players almost as effectively as town declaring to lynch top players. Once the role blocker passes through the top players they will have cleared some number of us (at least for the time being). It's just a WIFOM game as to whether the godfather will try to target any more of us. But if he does, at least you'll be on to us and be able to point us out when the godfather goes down.
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Alright, just one last word before I head out for a few hours. The best thing every single town aligned person can do is talk. The preference is to talk productively - we're not going to find the godfather or scum today unless we get super lucky. This is the day you can trust almost every single person around you. Make plans. Talk about how the setup works.
If you don't talk in a productive manner, you will be lynched. I will be grading you.
Furthermore, if your 'productivity' slacks off later in the game it could be because you've been recruited. If we don't have a strong baseline for good activity right now, we won't be able to read it later in the game. Either way we lynch you.
So everyone needs to voice their thoughts and provide new ideas. Every single one of you.
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On July 01 2010 13:52 Korynne wrote: I see, someone will always be lynched. In that case we pseudovote in this thread for mafia, and vote in the other thread for godfather. So whenever no NK happens, we kill the mafia the next day. If NK happens, then we just lynch whoever we think is likely to be GF the next day.
Also roleblocking top players is lame YellowInk. FoS on you. That means all the best players can't use their roles... so the potentially good jailkeeper/detective/etc. can't do their thing... good job. Besides mafia can then get our top players killed by not killing at night (since they probably want to kill the top players anyway if they can't recruit them). So like, not good. And we'd have to be continuously roleblocking the top players, not just once and it's done with. Top players are no more likely to have roles than inactives. With respect to hitting roles, this targeting is completely arbitrary. The rest of this argument just collapses from this fact.
I would argue that top townie players are easily as powerful as less skilled players with roles. Having people who know who they can trust among those who are skilled at deceiving is a valuable thing.
Regarding the pseudovote roleblocking: Roleblockers should be free to choose their own targets at will rather than putting it to a pseudovote. At least for now. First, we don't know if we have multiple roleblockers. I'd hate to waste town power by forcing them to overlap. Second, pseudovotes would allow the mafia to directly manipulate who is getting 'outted' by the roleblocks. Further, if we were comitting to lynch (or even just continuously roleblock) people who came up scum by this test, every time a medic successfully blocked or a vet took a hit, we could be lynching (or roleblocking) an innocent.
In short, it is a slow and ineffective method. The one benefit it gives us is that we can have the roleblocker target someone with reasonable certainty without the roleblocker being outted. It may be something to use eventually, but definitely not an every day thing.
On July 01 2010 14:06 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:56 L wrote: I want to know what people think about the following idea; We have one of the two masons claim. Given that we have verrrrry likely have medic(s), they can prot him and keep him alive during the game. If the player is lying, one (not both!) of the real masons can call him out. Given the fact that there are only 2 total mafia members today, it would cost the mafia essentially half their team to contest the mason claim. This is also a reason why claiming immediately would be more helpful than claiming at a later date. The downsides of this? Godfather now has a person he knows not to recruit, and the mason might die once mafia kp gets over 1.
If we do that, we have a confirmed townie who can essentially drive our vote; if he's wrong, cool beans, it happens. If he's right; awesome. Either way, it'll prevent exploitable intra-town conflicts. I don't like this idea. The 2 masons are going to be a thorn in the mafia's side until they die. Giving one of them up only gives us the benefit of having a confirmed townie who can do... what? We should use our collective thoughts to out the mafia, not a single person. Now, if it looks like a mason is going to be lynched, the mason should definitely role claim... if a mafioso is doing this, one of the real masons will come out and say it which would be a good trade. This is a bad plan. If I were scum about to be lynched, I'd totally claim free mason to force them to out. First off, the scum have nothing to lose by making such a claim and 'forcing' a real mason to out themselves. Second, the masons lose a lot of their power when they are 'out'. The #1 power of free masons is that when the godfather recruits them, the recruiting fails. This is why I also have to object to L's plan.
If we're about to lynch a mason, if the masons feel it's worth it to out both masons to divert the lynch, they should both claim. This way if scum lies to do so, they're giving something up. Yeah, doing this for the town will reveal our masons, but it's better than lynching them. No sole mason claim is going to convince me of anything - nor should it of you. It gives up 0 information, scum can do this at will.
On July 01 2010 14:18 L wrote: Lovers cannot claim, and if a mafia is recruited as a lover, they are a massive benefit to the mafia as even a sacrifice lynch gives the mafia an extra townie kill. Its to the point where even if there's a confirmed townie amongst the two lovers, its irrelevant because killing the other member is completely vote neutral when it comes to keeping mafia away from a vote superiority.
Masons can both claim, but we probably only have enough jail action to keep one alive, and we can't co-ordinate protection without jailer claims and frankly that's a non-starter.
Given that, it really doesn't make sense not to have a single confirmed townie confirm himself. If we do it at a later date, say around day 4, mafia might simply gambit and have 2 members counterclaim to control, say, a double lynch, which might end the game on us.
Having a mason claim isn't a game ender because we can't PM him role information, but it does give us one person as a base for analysis. Like I said, the tradeoff is halfing the chance that the GF tries to mason recruit, but that's a paltry 10% anyways. I'd take 1% if I could get it. 10% certaintly isn't paltry. Having a single confirmed townie does not gain us all that much. Further, I would rather not have to necessarily tie up our jailkeeper to a particular target. Consider also that the jailkeeper can target a person they choose at random tonight, and assuming they chose someone town aligned, they can be sure that that person remains town aligned. Regardless of who gets jailed, so long as it's town, that's another person that can't be recruited. This plan throws two of these 'free blocks' away.
Multiple jailkeepers makes this plan even worse similar to the roleblock pseudovote plan.
To masons I would say that the only condition under which you should claim is if you are about to be lynched. In this case you should both claim - that's what gives it credibility.
On July 01 2010 14:41 Korynne wrote: Why should we try to roleblock a good player rather than someone we think could be mafia and potentially blocking a night kill? -.- You always go after the red first. This goes without saying. It's similar to our lynch inactives policy. We're not about to lynch an inactive if we just had a DT point and say, "Yo! That guy's the godfather!"
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On July 01 2010 17:12 Bill Murray wrote: We are doing L's plan. There is nothing else to discuss. We should not do L's plan. Please see explanation above. Please post your agreement after thinking it over. L probably will too.
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Neither of the plans presented by Korynne or L should be pursued. Take the advice that I've outlined (unless anyone sees any flaws in it - none have voiced any yet) and apply it to yourself as appropriate.
But most importantly be active.
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To put some numbers on it, if we have 1 jailkeep and 1 pair of free masons, the jailkeep targets a random target, the godfather targets a random target except the mafia already recruited: The godfather will fail due to hitting a mason 2/18 11.1% The godfather will fail due to jailkeep protection 1/19 5.3% After accounting for overlap of these effects, the godfather will fail 15.8% Outing a mason and jailing them drops the godfather failure to 5.9% This is the 10% L refers to.
Consider that a second jailkeep increases the jailkeep protection effect by almost as much as the first. Now L's plan is losing us 15%.
Also keep in mind that this 'paltry' 10% goes into effect every time the godfather recruits. The mason effect gets larger over time as well since the godfather won't target the same person twice (assuming the godfather didn't hit a mason previously - if they did, we've won a significant victory). Having free masons unknown to the populace is an enormous boon to the town.
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A quick note to those of you trying to analyze my behavior:
If you read through the games I've played here (this is the fourth), you will find I have opened each game differently. This is for a few reasons which I might discuss in a general mafia thread, but it is primarily to make me unreadable.
There is no one strategy that 'convinces' people that one is town. If there were, scum would use it and town would be reduced to random voting and this game would be very boring. The best one can do is never be obvious scum. So that's all you're seeing.
On July 01 2010 18:45 Bill Murray wrote:yellowink, take the time away from your empty mafia IRC channel and answer my question Yo, obviously (lol) not scum here. Some people need to sleep. And no, I'm not on with the A5J wagon.
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On July 02 2010 01:00 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler [recent big post] +Like honestly BM, if you've read any of my games, you know that other than the game where I was scum in your game (though that doesn't really count because that was f11) I've tried to propose some sort of lengthy strategy at the beginning of the day.
Also I was going to bed, you're way too sensitive to the vote on you and you don't usually seem like the OMGUS kind of person. Like I said, which you have not addressed in any way, you're playing differently this game than all others. You could at least have said, well gee thanks I try to help out for real now and I get voted on for that? You just completely ignored that part of my post. So yeah, heavy FoS on you.
What's wrong with my idea? If we implement it we can do up to 3 actions a day instead of just 1. Actions: #1 Roleblock a mafia, this can block all 3 KP if we hit the mafia. I highly doubt mafia is going to pretend to not kill anyone when a townie gets blocked, they could just kill that townie and 2 others. Even when mafia has 1 KP it's between not killing and letting the one guy (we chose) die, and just killing the person that they feel like is most detrimental to town. #2 DT check a GF, since that's the only way we can find the GF and a GF to DT trade is like, absolutely worth it especially since we have a system for mafia now. #3 Lynch an inactive, since we have to lynch everyday, if the roleblock and DT check don't work out then we just lynch an inactive, like we can do today since we haven't started DT checking and roleblocking.
So how do we implement this plan?
#1 Pseudovote in this thread for mafia and GF, like ##mafia: A ##GF: B #2 At night, roleblocker blocks the person who got the most votes for mafia (even if they don't agree on the person being mafia, and of course they don't have to roleblock themselves, but they can't roleblock anyone else at night if they are the one designated to be roleblocked) and detective checks the person who town voted on as most likely to be GF (with the same clause as above, except if the town voted for the DT then he can check whoever he likes) #3 In the morning, if the DT found GF, we lynch GF. If no night kills happened, we lynch the person that was roleblocked. If neither of those happen, then we lynch an inactive (they don't contribute to us very much, and they're harder to read, and this forces people to talk) We can also vote for double lynch if there's a lot of people we want to kill (like we got a GF and there was no night kills, vote for double lynch the next day). This way we get through 3 things a day. Now for everyone who doesn't understand how this is beneficial to us, let me spell it out for you.
Above method: Up to 3 actions a day Normal method: We have to choose to either lynch someone we think is mafia (to lower their KP), choose to lynch someone we think is GF (to stop the recruiting), and probably have no power to threaten the inactives because we're too busy hunting scum.
Okay peoples? This sounds like a wonderful idea. Knowing that you are very logical, have you carefully read all of my posts?
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On July 02 2010 01:15 Korynne wrote: Give me a second to go through all the stuff I wanted to, and then I will go through all of your posts if that's what you'd like me to do. I ask because I countered your plan a while ago. I am surprised you're still pressing it.
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On July 02 2010 01:18 Korynne wrote: Well I've read some of it YInk and I don't think I saw anything breaking my plan. But just give me a couple secs to get through everything else I wanted to. I'm headed out in a minute for a couple hours. Give it some thought and reply.
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On June 27 2010 03:34 DarthThienAn wrote: If you try to recruit a Free Mason, that person will remain a townsperson (will not become mafia), and no new mafia will be recruited for that night. They will notified that the Godfather tried to recruit them that night. You will never be notified the results of your recruitment . DTA can you please clarify/fix the italicized OP please?
On July 02 2010 02:04 lakrismamma wrote: You have not responded to any of my accusations either. My thread speaks volumes more than your accusations.
On July 01 2010 03:35 YellowInk wrote: Has anyone noticed how much information Korynne has been providing us? On July 02 2010 01:28 Korynne wrote: Oh yeah, you should explain this post btw. I forgot about it. xD This was in reply to:
On July 01 2010 03:13 Korynne wrote: we don't want to give the godfather more information than he already knows when you had posted: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=7#133 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=7#134 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=8#144 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=8#148 which holds a wealth of information. It was a cheap jab much like my shot on Chezinu.
On July 02 2010 04:07 Bill Murray wrote: heavy fos on me after i made a half page post putting heavy fos on you first? your play is trash.
On July 02 2010 04:09 Bill Murray wrote: jeez, you're still on me?
your play is so bad.
how about you learn how to scumhunt? take notes. You're not convincing anyone like this. You may want to try a different tact.
@Korynne roleblock plan discussion: There are really two major points of contention I have about this. First, I don't believe it is safe to assume that we have precisely one roleblocker. If we have 0 or 2, we're losing a lot of ground with this plan. I think we are in agreement on the loss of ground, we just disagree in our assumptions. The second is that if we use this plan, whenever the mafia fail to hit we are using this as a scum tell for our pseudovoted blocked guy. The mafia could have just tried to hit whomever was in jail or a vet. If we use this as significant evidence of scum, we're going to be randomly wasting our lynches whenever the mafia happens to fail to hit.
My suggestion to roleblockers is this: Choose your own roleblocks. You can follow my ideas about blocking top players if you don't feel that you have a better target. It's just like lynching inactives - it's something you do when you don't know what better to do. If there is no mafia hit on a given night, roleblock the same target again. If the target is scum, this buys the town another safety from KP. Mind you that this isn't perfect, but it is a large scum tell if you block the KP twice in a row. If there are two roleblockers, both roleblockers will think their target is scum by this plan - but even in this case it at least helps slow down the mafia KP.
@Korynne DT plan discussion: Voting on a target and DTs aligning by this will create perfect overlap if we have multiple DTs. This is the most inefficient way to find the godfather. Here we gain no public information by directing our DTs like we do with the roleblockers, so why even bother? By all means, if you believe someone to be the godfather for any reason, post in thread so that the DTs can take it into consideration. But railroading DTs to particular targets will not help us.
My suggestion to DTs: Target whomever you like. Take all of our ideas into consideration, but also realize that if there are two DTs you want to minimize overlap with them. This is a double edged sword since suppose town strongly suggests a target for the GF, I would hate to see a single DT shy away from investigating them because they figure the other DT is obviously going to investigate. I would prefer to have DT overlap than DTs failing to investigate - I just don't want to have perfect overlap as Korynne's plan forces.
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On July 02 2010 05:12 Korynne wrote: I was just pointing out why we shouldn't talk. Because townies are stupid and don't do what they're told unless you spell it out for them 5 times. As I've learned in this game. I think it's a rather safe assumption that we have at least one roleblocker. And I think it's probably safe to say there's not two. Even if there was two, it's not a big deal. I don't think we should be throwing roleblocks all over the place, because they usually screw up normal night actions. So if someone's claiming something but then oh look, it didn't happen, then a roleblocker would have to out themselves to be like, yo, he's cool, I did roleblock him. This is a good point. The only blue role that goes over to the mafia is the roleblocker. By having it be directed, we'll always know that people can't claim to have been roleblocked unless the mafia got their hands on a roleblocker.
The whole point is that we're using it as an alternative to lynching the person who we think is most scummy. So if we're not doing this plan, HE WOULD BE DEAD ANYWAY. More importantly than this, it means that we have to convince the town that every single lynch needs to be based ... inactivity, I assume? Or, of course, DT/roleblocking info.
I don't think we would start with two DTs either, but even if we do. I think it's more important that we can confirm people as not GF. I disagree with this statement. The DT will not be outting themselves at the finding of scum like in a normal game. They will only finger when they have a godfather or perhaps 2x scum depending on the game situation. A DT 'confirming' someone as not the godfather doesn't mean that they're a bad target for a lynch. It just means they're not the godfather. They could still be scum.
This way a detective does not need to reveal himself to confirm people. That keeps our detective hidden! If we had two DTs they'll just spend forever metagaming themselves on whether to check the obvious or someone else. So let's just make it simple, we gain one piece of information per night, guaranteed. Rather than possibly not gaining information if DT is killed. Also like I said before, dream catchers who get DT should check people who have not been checked by the DT yet. A much more guaranteed less overlap. I definitely agree that any dream catcher DTs should be doing their own thing regardless of the plan.
In summary, I'm giving the role block plan some consideration to aligning with you. DTs should definitely be left on their own. The consequences of this plan are still much harsher than the gains if we're ever at 0 or 2 roleblockers (whether by design or due to recruiting).
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Since it hasn't been discussed extensively, I would like to talk a bit about the coroner role. I would not be surprised if we have at least two of these. For this reason I don't think that any town voting type activation is appropriate. That being said, of course people are going to say 'oh this would be a good time for a coroner'. Use your own judgment.
This ability should be used to help generate new momentum in the town. If we have good leads already, this power would generate additional information that we might not be able to act on. Instead use it when we're in a situation that is more stale. The longer this power is held on to, the more powerful it becomes.
I definitely would not use it before night 3 under any circumstance. Probably not until at least night 4. Also, just because a DT fingered a godfather and we lynch does not mean that this power needs to be immediately used. Sure, it'd be satisfying to know for sure, but game play only changes somewhat because of it. If we already have a good lead on other scum, it may be more valuable to hold out an additional day. If you were to wait another day and it turns out that it wasn't a godfather, we're still going to lynch the lying DT.
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On July 02 2010 09:21 youngminii wrote: The truly inactives will be modkilled. So would we be lynching someone that hasn't posted too much content? I don't think we're going to find someone likely to be GF or scum on D1. Yes. When we say 'inactive' in thread, we mean people who have been posting/voting but not contributing.
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While I'm still undecided about the Korynne role block plan, my vote is going to zeks. We're more than 450 posts deep and he is usually far more active on day 1 than this. He has made one post with no substance.
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@DTA I think this was asked earlier but we didn't get an answer. What is the order of priorities in night actions? For instance, if you role block and recruit a given target, does it block the mafia KP? If you recruit and night kill a given target, does their body show up as mafia or town aligned?
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On July 02 2010 10:35 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 10:28 YellowInk wrote: @DTA I think this was asked earlier but we didn't get an answer. What is the order of priorities in night actions? For instance, if you role block and recruit a given target, does it block the mafia KP? If you recruit and night kill a given target, does their body show up as mafia or town aligned? For the 1st one it does not block the KP if they are blocked on the night they are recruited, (mod stated this a few pages back) so jailing them as well may be required. Ok, thanks. Also, still looking for that OP edit requested earlier.
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People who support L's plan, I think you are over valuing having a confirmed townie. Just because someone is confirmed town does not mean they will necessarily make the best decisions. This would be a worthy plan if PMs were allowed as roles could be organized.
After giving K's plan some final thought, I have to stand against it. I still believe that it could be used on occasion when circumstances warrant, but the drawbacks are too great to use every day.
Townies - play smart, be active.
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zeks = silent -> claiming mason supposedly forcing us to L's plan?
I don't buy it.
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On July 02 2010 13:25 L wrote: YI, I want you to explain in detail why you don't buy it, because you just made the fishiest post in the first 25 pages by far. It's really quite simple. I call out zeks for being abnormal and quiet. zeks responds by posting in a manner that advocates your plan and effectively clears him if the masons agree with me that your plan is not better than remaining secret.
Now zeks is in a position where you will defend him and the jailkeeper may protect him (and so he can never be DT'd). Even with this, I'm not sure that it's best for a real mason to come out if zeks is lying.
Your plan was only effective if you had town alignment on it before a mason coming forward. There definitely was not alignment on it. At this point, even if I agreed with you, it doesn't mean the masons do. So now the whole thing is fishy.
All this being said, it only screws the town over somewhat. The question is whether the jailkeeper wants to commit to protecting zeks. If zeks is for real, obviously we want to cover. If zeks is a fake (and if he were, I would figure him to either be traitor or goon, not godfather), we'll be wasting a bunch of jailkeeper actions up until when the real masons decide to come out.
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On July 02 2010 09:35 Divinek wrote: oh my god ive been working 12 hour shifts and just been skimming to stay alive i will post something more useful after i sift through all these new pages, of which i assume are 70% bm spam Still need to hear from you. Moving vote here until satisfied. Work sucks. =\
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On July 02 2010 14:24 Korynne wrote: Also like I said, zeks, you should post an encrypted message in the thread, and give the key to your mason partner. If you die and we ever need to verify your partner, we will be using that key to do it. I agree with this. But mind you, everyone, that if zeks isn't a mason, he's probably either the traitor (in which case no one will pick up his key - which is fine), or the goon (in which case he'll pass the key on to his team tomorrow). So the key won't hold too much weight until we have a coroner check out zeks' corpse.
Because of this fact, you could say that the key holds weight if someone decodes it since it's putting scum at risk whenever a coroner flips zeks' corpse. However, the tool would still be there for the goon to use should they desire to put weight into some particular argument at some particular time if this came up.
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On July 02 2010 23:41 bumatlarge wrote: Im reluctant to vote YI, but I mst admit hes a viable godfather. Hasnt really been agressive with anyone, but has posted a good amout of content. Nothing scummy, but GF shouldnt appear scummy, since his main gist is to stay alive as long as possible. I dont want to do anything rash so early. With 17/20 pro town and none of the 3 scum knowing each other, being aggressive is not helpful. There's no interaction to study. In my earlier post I said clearly that the most important thing that any player can do is be active so that we have a baseline for what to expect in the future. If you're inactive I want to lynch you now since I won't be able to read a drop in your productivity between today and after you got recruited.
Right now I am least impressed by ElyAs and Abenson. Since ElyAs currently has enough votes on him that if he doesn't do anything about it he'll get lynched, I'm dropping my vote on Abenson.
It's not Canada Day anymore. Be active. Be productive.
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Slight erratum: The GF knows who they recruited. But it's one single one way minimal interaction - we're far more likely to randomly lynch the GF than to read that small tidbit.
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If you search for DTA you'll find my other question about priorities in actions.
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I think that is functional except you have to put recruitment before detective. You said that the DT would get post recruiting info. And even though you made a list separation, coroner is last, yes? Thanks, this is helpful.
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Also, roleblock and jailkeep can conflict - I assume if they do that the roleblock gets priority. I don't think you intended jailkeep to be an unroleblockable role.
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On July 03 2010 02:01 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 01:51 YellowInk wrote: I think that is functional except you have to put recruitment before detective. You said that the DT would get post recruiting info. And even though you made a list separation, coroner is last, yes? Thanks, this is helpful. Uh, what? If a DT got recruited, I would still send him/her the results of the check for that night. After that, no more DT powers.
Ohhhhh. lol. Just read my thing on a DT at the beginning. Hmmmm.... Well THAT'S complicated. I guess, for the sake of consistency, I'll put the DT after recruitment.
Coroner...well actually, Coroner is technically before recruitment. Coroner would not know whether or not he/she was recruited the night he/she chose to activate. Like, the general idea here is that nobody's decision-making for night actions should be influenced by that night's recruitment. However, their results may be changed, based on the recruitment.
Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 01:53 YellowInk wrote: Also, roleblock and jailkeep can conflict - I assume if they do that the roleblock gets priority. I don't think you intended jailkeep to be an unroleblockable role. Right, roleblocker would stop a jailkeep. my bad.
Updated.
Roleblocker Jailkeeper Detective / Mad Hatter (set bombs) Coroner Godfather's recruitment Detective results Mafia Hit Mad Hatter Hit (if applicable)
Others: Dream Catcher: does not apply. Veteran: passive, but with a Jailkeeper, he wouldn't lose any lives.
Hope this is right now T_T.
Doesn't coroner have to be at the very end? It happens after mafia hits (and so may as well happen after mad hatter hits)? Delete detective from the Detective / Mad Hatter (set bombs) line and I think we're all set.
At least you can see why I wanted some clarification. Recruitment makes things messy.
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Ok, so if a coroner goes off it will not show any information about anyone who was killed on that night (because it happens before hits). This conflicts with the coroner OP. That also covers my question about coroner/recruit/hit in the same night interaction.
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Hm, I think I have found the source of the confusion.
None of my questions were about order of submission of actions. They were entirely about order of resolution of actions. All actions get submitted throughout the night. Then you resolve them in an order by some given criteria. I want to know this order of resolution.
Coroner I assumed to happen at least after hits since the OP states that it covers the night's deaths. But consider that we'll see different results depending on if recruitment happens before or after hits/coroner.
hits coroner recruit => if recruit was on the hit townie, the coroner will show townie
recruit hits coroner => if recruit was on the hit townie, the coroner will show mafia
Another example is ordering of DT interaction. All that matters is order of resolution.
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The dream catcher gets a random role not the lost role.
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On July 03 2010 03:02 DarthThienAn wrote:
YellowInk, resolutions:
Recruitment DT Hits Coroner
Is that clear then? Yes, Coroner would reveal any dead recruits from that night.
Yes, thanks. I think that covers everything.
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As I've stated earlier, I believe the roleblocker(s) should choose their own candidates. I also think the jailkeeper should not necessarily cover zeks. I won't say that he shouldn't, just should consider not covering zeks. We may have multiple jailkeepers anyhow - this size of a setup could warrant 2x medic.
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If people are 'afraid' to post they will get lynched every game until they start playing. Posting is at the core of the game. I would rather have new players making 100 mistakes (for which I might lynch them) than not posting enough (for which I will surely lynch them), but either way, they need to post or die.
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Roleclaiming inactive townie in a recruiting game is signing a death warrant. It makes him an excellent future recruit if he survives a few days. We'll have no baseline. While I lean towards believing him, I don't like it one bit. If he doesn't end up being lynched today, he should probably be basically autolynched at some point in the future when we're not sure who else to hit.
ElyAs, you can PM DTA and say "I can't play because something came up." The modkill would be reduced to a warning if you're giving notice rather than just flaking out. We could also get you an alternate. Anything beyond this is between you and the mod.
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Even if no lynch were an option (it isn't), I would not advocate it. Each night mafia are getting a recruit and a kill aside from failures. That's a huge red swing. We cannot play a waiting game. We need to force people to talk until we hit the godfather - whether because he chose to lay too low too long or because he stepped out of line and gets smacked for it.
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On July 04 2010 01:56 bumatlarge wrote:+ Show Spoiler [bum's big post] +Here's a quick summary of stuff for blue's to look at. Remember to do what YOU think is best, not what anyone else says. You know you are town, so use your judgement. L's plan + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:56 L wrote:Okay, so there's a few things I noted going through this that I figured some people kinda didn't realize while doing their analysis. First off is this little tidbit from the rules post: Starting means that number isn't going to stay at 1. If we fuck up our first few lynches and vig hits, we're going to hit a wall where mafia KP is just going to be too high to recover from. Between the recruitment, mafia kills and daily lynch, mafia have the ability to drop 3+ town votes per day. Assuming they play perfectly, mafia kill 2 people per day via lynch and night hit and gain 1 voting power per day. More dangerously, i'd assume that mafia gain a kp, either at 3 or 4 members. If 3 is kp=2, which we'll find out tomorrow, its possible that they move to kp=3 if they have a full 5 members. 5 members, however, would be a situation in which town has missed 4 subsequent lynches. 3 missed lynches is generally a loss condition in F11, so this isn't really that far off. This means that by day 3, there are going to be 16 players alive, 4 of them mafia, 12 town. The day 4, we hit 5/8-9. At this point, unless we have hatters, vig and double lynches available and used properly, we lose unless we kill the godfather. This is assuming that the town kp isn't improperly placed, and that we don't double lynch inaccurately. This means we need to figure out who the GF is by day 4 or we're boned, put simply, or hit goons one after another. Given this, if we have shitty leads on day 3, we might want to consider claims given the information we have, but not before then. Why not before then? Well, its pretty simple: Show nested quote +If the Godfather is checked by a DT, do you return "Godfather"? Yes, all DT checks are 100% (minus roleblock). We can't let our DT(s) get recruited or killed early because they're the only non destructive way we have of identifying the GF. Given the shitshow of a last game, I'd like to be able to have our day 1 lynch proceed smoothly. Because of that, I want to know what people think about the following idea; We have one of the two masons claim. Given that we have verrrrry likely have medic(s), they can prot him and keep him alive during the game. If the player is lying, one (not both!) of the real masons can call him out. Given the fact that there are only 2 total mafia members today, it would cost the mafia essentially half their team to contest the mason claim. This is also a reason why claiming immediately would be more helpful than claiming at a later date. The downsides of this? Godfather now has a person he knows not to recruit, and the mason might die once mafia kp gets over 1. If we do that, we have a confirmed townie who can essentially drive our vote; if he's wrong, cool beans, it happens. If he's right; awesome. Either way, it'll prevent exploitable intra-town conflicts. And zeks roleclaim to mason (no contention as of yet, so assuming hes legitimate sounds very reasonable to me) + Show Spoiler +On July 02 2010 11:58 zeks wrote: wow the reception was awesome!
Sorry for mindfucking you all for 10 mins rofl
Yes I'm one of the Masons. For better or for worse god picked me to be the Mason and the other mason and I agreed that I'd come out and roleclaim.
Now I'm going out for real now, no more posting for the night, play on, speculate if you will. I'll read through all this in the morning. And then Korynne's plan. People seem to have been questioning it, and we have already lynched someone, but there is some useful strategies in here, so use your intuition. We won't hate you for trying + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 12:49 Korynne wrote: Also DCLXVI, it's KoryNNE not KoryNEE.
rastaban I like the idea, except GF can still recruit when mafia is roleblocked right? So then best case scenerio we find 2 mafia, we end up with this situation of 5 mafia (GF recruits while we sit around roleblocking mafia), hopefully none of which are roleblocker or we're screwed on that plan unless the dream catcher gets roleblocker from another blue. And then us lynching people can potentially out the roleblocker. Or we sit around and not lynch people? That seems like a rather stalemate.
So I don't think that idea works very well... but if we go ahead and pretend there's at least one roleblocker, we can roleblock instead of lynching someone. If mafia doesn't kill that night, we lynch the guy, if mafia does kill that night then we don't lynch the guy. So if mafia wants to get the guy killed they have to sacrifice their night kill to get the guy killed, so basically it would be like us not lynching and mafia nightkilling that guy. I think that's a valid plan. But that requires a roleblocker... so... I don't know how confident we are on that matter. =\
So if we go ahead with this, it means we should pseudovote in this thread, and only vote to kill someone in the other thread when a night kill doesn't happen. And some shameless self-promotion if you really dont know where to start. Assume the more games they've played and how active a player is ups how experienced they are and merge it with the gut feelings you get from this thread. You should be able to generate a solid guess as to what you should do. + Show Spoiler +On July 01 2010 13:55 bumatlarge wrote:Fun play makes me a very happy person. I love you darth. On that note, there seem to be very few new players who I have not seen play, but could have been in other games, but I have played with a good amount of the roster. That being said, I put together a list of people who have played together. I know I would like to pick someone I was familiar with. I think if you're mafia with someone, you get in contact a little more with them, and if they are cohesive, it should lead somewhere in this game. Havent gone to fr into it. If you see something I missed, got wrong, or want to go deeper, be my guest. (R) = red role + Show Spoiler + Game 2: L(R), Chezinu, AFJ, bum Game 3: chezinu, bum Ace MWorld: bum, Qatol Resurrection: zeks, qatol Game 4: bum, lakrismama(R), Qatol Game 5: Qatol, bum, zeks Game 7: Qatol(R), L Game XII: L, Chezinu Red Army: L, Chez(R) Mini Mafia #1: Chez, Qatol Smurf: lol not going to bother Mafia XV: Chez(R), L(R) Mini Mafia 2: L, Chezinu Game XVIII: L, Chez, Abenson Red army 2: L, Chez, BM, Abenson, citizen Game XX: BM, L, Abenson, citizen Game XIV: BM, Abenson, citizen Micro: Abenson, citizen Micro 2: L, BM WaW: BM, L, Abenson, citizen Steve Zizou: Korynne(R), brownbear, Abenson Game 22: AFJ, BM(R), Abenson, Bear PYPM: BM, citizen, L, Korynne, Qatol (what the hell happened) 3King: L, BM, Abenson, bear (I didnt understand this much...) bang bang: L, Korynne, bear, chez, citizen(R) game 26: bum(R), elyas, AFJ, DCL, zeks game 27: L(R), chez(R), citizen, afj Team Mini: BM+Chez, L, bum, korynne, yellow(R), DCL+divine, bear
# of times played with (again i probably missed things) + Show Spoiler + L + Chez = 10(2R) BM + Abenson = 6 L + BM = 6 Abenson + citizen = 5 BM + citizen = 5 L + citizen = 5 L + Aben = 5 Korynne + L = 3 Korynne + bear = 3 aben + bear= 3 chez + bum = 3 bum + Qatol = 3 chez + citizen = 3
Pretty interesting, but nothing to nail anything something down. Its just to find chains of things for blue roles to use if they hit gold, and for us to put soe method to our lynching if we have nothing. I don't know the state of any of the 'connections' besides my own. From what I gather, L is completely apathetic towards chezinu. Who knows, use this as you will. Kind of suspicious that you left out the best plan.
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On July 04 2010 03:50 Divinek wrote: kind of odd you comment on that then dont include it yourself I'm an odd person. I've condensed my plan here for ease of reading and for future reference.
Roleblockers block who they like. Block consecutively to confirm likely scum and keep KP low when mafia fail to hit. Once the godfather falls, they can come forward and reveal what scum they found if appropriate to the game state, but they should definitely not out themselves before this.
DTs investigate who they like. They only out themselves to finger the godfather or 2x goon (so that roleblockers can perpetual block KP). If town is in bad shape and mafia hits are never blocked, I could see a situation where the DT outs themselves for fingering 1x goon and hopes the jailkeeper covers them or someone else has info on another goon.
Jailkeeper jails whom they like, but would keep the same person jailed perpetually to keep them as a highly likely safe town. This continues until there is a better target that the jailkeeper needs to cover.
Because of zeks forcing L's plan prior to alignment, the jailkeeper may consider to use zeks as a target, but I would recommend against it. I still am strongly against L's plan and find it likely that zeks is mafia goon or traitor. There are plenty of reasons the masons would remain hidden. However this decision should be left up to the jailkeeper.
+ Show Spoiler [Why zeks isn't necessarily mason] +If you still havn't been convinced of why zeks could be a likely mafia goon, consider that the mafia can play extremely aggressively because of the limited interaction between their team and the lack of immediate death information revelations. Suppose zeks got counterclaimed by a single vanilla mason. Now the godfather knows who the mason is and we are left with the choice to go for a 50/50 lynch, a 50/50 roleblock (giving the godfather the opportunity to recruit the mason), or just ignore the whole plan. All of these situations are great for the red. This is not your typical static # of mafia game setup.
If zeks got counterclaimed by two vanilla mutually confirming masons, now we can lynch/block zeks, but the godfather will be able to recruit with impunity. On night 3 when we can't roleblock zeks, the mafia can take out zeks, forcing us to jail zeks if we want to get 2 more blocks out of him. This is the best situation for the town.
However, if zeks is the traitor and not the goon, this situation is absolutely devastating for the town. The masons will be high profile targets. Maybe they won't get hit right away just to fake out the jailkeeper, but they will have outed their powerful roles in exchange for a pretty weak mafia aligned role. Furthermore, if the masons are not vanilla, that's even more power being put out to get killed in any of these situations. As you know there was a great deal more analysis and explanation to why these are the choices that should be made, but I think this covers all my major points.
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Lakrismamma? That seems an odd choice. All he really had to say of merit was that he didn't like me. He also leaned against Abenson. Not a big fan of L's modified plan.
I think it was just a shot taken of opportunity. No one likely to cover him. Is there anything else to see here?
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On July 04 2010 13:58 citi.zen wrote: I think in this set-up fake claims are hugely damaging in this set-up general, since we don't learn the alignment of the dead.
For the sake of the argument - let's say the mafia claim DT and say "OMG - I found the GF!!". Then we lynch that (innocent) player but... don't know if they were red, unless we use the coroner the next night. If we use it, the coroner loses their power, so the 2nd time a mafia goon does this we can't even verify it at all. Does that mean the mafia can do this every single day in principle, leading to perpetual mis-lynches? Even if we correctly kill the supposed DT as well (a 2x lynch for example), the GF would be safe since we're wasting the town KP on goons.
The whole set-up seems fucked up, unless I just don't understand something obvious here. Maybe I just need sleep. I had come to this conclusion before the game had started. I didn't say as much because I didn't want to let on that mafia could play so aggressively. This is why I objected to L's plan. This is why I don't trust zeks. To be honest, I havn't figured out a counter strategy to aggressive mafia play. Ignoring roleclaims gets us nowhere - I'm not about to lynch zeks or a cold claiming DT either. The only way we seem to be able to win is if we get lucky enough to lynch the godfather within the first few days. After this, chances seem really really slim.
There's a big difference between a game with a cult that can recruit, but not kill, where the cult leader dies when they try to recruit mafia... and a cult that can recruit, gets KP, and doesn't die to night hits or poor choice of recruit. This is why at the start I felt there really wasn't much chance for town unless we have multiple free masons (or get super lucky). From DTA's earlier description of how he set up the game, I believe we only have one free mason pair and one set of lovers, though.
Since the idea of aggressive mafia play is clearly out in the open now, lets discuss. How can we counter if it mafia plays this way?
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L, did you read this? Especially the spoiler section. It's not terrible for the goon to make the claim (especially considering how much division there was on your plan), and it's actually quite good for the traitor to make the claim. That zeks hasn't put out an encrypted key (again, especially after request) seems downright silly. Then again, I suppose there is a chance he has and he just left it concealed.
Having a single verified town doesn't do us all that much good anyhow. The risk vs reward of putting any significant trust in this individual never seemed greater than the benefit of keeping the mason concealed and the jailkeeper not committed to that target.
So I still stand by my initial reaction to zeks' claim. I don't buy it.
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On July 05 2010 08:28 Bill Murray wrote: i also believe that there ARE masons, and that zeks IS a mason, I'm just prepared for the POSSIBILITY of Chezinu influencing this guy as mafia. No, I'm not under the influence. No, I'm not hung over. The above sums up my stance fairly well except for the fingering Chezinu part.
I'd give zeks 80% odds on being mason. This isn't something I'd trust my life with. I don't feel that this was worth zeks coming out and claiming assuming he is mason. I don't agree that this mason coming out plan is strong. I don't believe the jailkeeper should necessarily cover zeks (though if you covered night 1, you should probably keep covering him).
I wish I was traitor this game. Unfortunately I'm stuck trying to figure out how to convince everyone how to play their best. More to come about who to hang after I do some more analysis.
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After reviewing the list of participants, Abenson has still provided the least useful content. Since he has not provided enough content to figure out if he's turned to mafia, if he were recruited he would be difficult or impossible to reveal by post analysis.
I havn't been able to find anything that indicates someone was turned. Yet. So in the absence of something directly indicating red, my vote is going for Abenson.
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Alright, there has been a lot of poor thought process in this game, but this one takes the cake. If this were a normal game I would say lynch Bill Murray! But it isn't, so I'm not, read on...
This is what you should be doing if you have a role.
Since with Ace and BC entering the game there has been some renewed discussion, let me add some clarification to the idea of the 'modified Korynne plan'. The strength of Korynne's plan was that you could know who was being roleblocked without having to out the roleblocker. If you select 3 people and make the roleblockers block among them, you're getting the worst of both worlds. You're encouraging overlap between multiple roleblockers, and you're not getting the information of who was blocked. Roleblockers should stick to complete non-disclosure as indicated in the linked post above.
To those who counter my hanging Abenson - I am not interested in hanging him because I think he's a likely recruit. I don't even care about hanging recruits right now! The godfather needs to be targeted first and foremost. The godfather needs to find a way to blend in. If Abenson is getting defended, then clearly his strategy is effective. Tomorrow will be the same - we're going to find someone who hasn't been contributing and hang them.
Now back to our fine Bill Murray. He would be an excellent target for role blocking and mad hatter bomb laying. This is how we deal with people who are fresh recruits - not lynch! Lynches should be targeted at those whom you think are going to hit a godfather candidate and nowhere else until we get confirmation or choose to assume that the godfather is dead.
Also note that just because Bill Murray is an excellent roleblock target doesn't mean that as a roleblocker you should definitely block him. With the state of the game, if I were a roleblocker, I'd probably put 30-60% on blocking him, 40-70% on blocking someone else of my choice. You always want to have some uncertainty in your decisions so that you can maximize your effectiveness since it is, of course, uncertain whether Bill Murray is red and whether there are other blockers besides yourself. Overlapping blocks on a town aligned or traitor BM is a significant loss for the town.
I believe Abenson is still an excellent godfather candidate. Furthermore, if he is town aligned, we get the extra bonus of hanging someone who we won't be able to read should he be recruited in the future. I agree that Abenson would be an unlikely recruit for night 1 or 2, but night 4 or 5 if we're at each other's throats and he's still alive for some reason, he could be an excellent recruit.
Regardless of if you agree with me about Abenson, you should choose your lynch based on who you think is likely to be godfather. While the choice of godfather was random, the players each choose their own play style to match their role.
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Oh BM. lol
DCLXVI did you read my post just before yours? It's unlikely that BM is godfather playing like this - much more likely he's an aggressive goon. If you really think BM is godfather, I'd like to hear your argument.
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Hopefully our roleblockers or jailkeepers choose wisely.
Jailkeepers - remember you have the option to cover one of the lovers or to just keep covering who you have been. I'd hate to see zeks take a hit because we were attempting to cover lovers. Honestly unless the other lover is blue as well, it's probably better to stay confident and keep jailing whomever you have already been jailing. It'd be awesome if you were already jailing the lover the mafia decided to hit, though, huh?
Blockers & DTs - Do what you do. Block who you think is red. DT who you think could be GF.
Coroners - do nothing. Divinek is popping tonight.
Divinek - Pop your coroner. And next game you get something like this, give more than two hours! I check this thread like 4x a day and it's still really easy to miss that kind of thing. Radfield and I had a discussion in another game about when is it too late to use votes as pressure and I was uncomfortable within the last 12 hours, Radfield was comfortable at about 4-6 hours as I recall. This is a good example of why it was a problem to wait to the last couple hours. I get that you didn't want to reveal until you had to, but you probably could have been pushing for at least some town solidarity one way or another since I had put Abenson under the microscope. If town was aligning on Abenson you could've then come out with your claim with plenty of time to spare.
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As a town aligned player, I can only figure out one concrete reason L is fingering Abenson at the end of day 2. If L is a lover, assumes there's only one lover pair, and DTA did not kill the other lover because it was a modkill, he's calling Abenson/Divinek liars. I think it's more likely that L is stating that he's townie and doesn't believe that Abenson is town aligned. (If DarthThienAn would like to clarify whether a modkill would trigger lover kill he is welcome to do so.)
If L is scum, this just generates confusion. I think it's decently likely that L was the night 1 recruit. He had a plan that debilitated the town somewhat and a lot of people bought it. This doesn't clear zeks either, zeks could still be the traitor if L is scum.
I would say to the town essentially the same thing A5J had to say: Ignore L. Divinek is popping a coroner to provide evidence of his truthfulness. They may not get hit tonight, but since they're out in the open now they'll be ripe for mafia KP at any given time - nigh impossible to efficiently protect. Jailkeepers just use your best judgment. Blockers, don't hassle them. If coroner fails to pop we can block them the rest of the game.
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Mass roleclaim is a terrible terrible strategy for night 2/day 3! I don't understand how people can even be convinced that it's good.
Lategame mass roleclaim can be good because it gets all the information on the table for us to compile. If the scum try to fake claim, they have to provide information. If this ever conflicts with any other information, people get hung. It also creates a situation where the mafia have too many targets to deal with in a short amount of time.
Mass roleclaim this early gives us very little information (remember that DTs couldn't investigate night 1 - I wish people would read the rules and stop posting as if they have an investigation under their belts. Night 2 is way too late for BrownBear to be making an error like this. I see no way for mass roleclaim to even be worth considering until at least day 5 in this setup.
Considering it was Bill Murray that initiated the push for mass roleclaim, I could conceive of a scenario where BrownBear could be godfather, but I think it's pretty unlikely. I might give BrownBear a solid 10-15% chance to investigate though. May be a decent role block target, but not as good as Bill Murray, so I might block BB 15-30%.
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Just as a game theory addendum, any mafia game where mass roleclaim is the right play early on is either broken or deliberately (and obviously) designed for this to occur. This is clearly not the case.
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On July 06 2010 15:48 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 15:42 Bill Murray wrote: if i was dt i would check ace/bc/yellowink tonight hell, if you're dt, check me and confirm me for now too if you're jailer, jail someone repetitively. i'd jail someone like hesmyrr if i was jailer. if you're a roleblocker, try roleblocking abenson to see if L was lying do not role block abenson. we'll have a much better idea about abenson soon enough. I'd say roleblock BM or citi.zen.
On July 06 2010 15:56 Bill Murray wrote: do not roleblock me i am a fucking townie BM is asking to be roleblocked with his bad advice.
On July 06 2010 16:06 youngminii wrote: Also I agree, roleblock abenson.
Worst case scenario: Abenson is blue and gets roleblocked. This means Divinek lied hence we must lynch him.
Middle case scenario: Abension is townie and nothing happens.
Best case scenario: Abenson is scum and we can just keep roleblocking him every night. Youngminii is also a reasonable choice for block - this is not the first time he's come under suspicion.
Mass roleclaim is still bad! If you really want to do a mass roleclaim, you should not do so until double lynch day 4. At least then we'll have 2 days of DT info instead of 1. To be honest, I'm still not in favor of mass claim because we're not generating enough info, so I'm not sure that I'll be voting for the double lynch. Day 3 massclaim is just insanely bad.
Why are so many townies so swayed by having a specific plan - ANY plan - even if it's terrible? Swayed by L, now swayed by Chezinu. Judge the plan on its own merits as compared to everyone acting on their own information. Mass claim is a huge loss for town on day 3. It's not going to confirm anyone and we're going to have to get incredibly lucky to catch anyone in a lie since DTs will only have one check under their belts.
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Jailing lovers isn't even a straight WIFOM, it's far worse. But yes, BM continues to draw scum suspicion with every third post or so. It's unfortunate that the best answer to this is block and not kill.
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BM if I find out you are town this game I'm going to ::headdesk::
To try to get town on track, is there anything we need to discuss tonight? I don't think there is unless there are still people on the roleclaim plan. Then I must dispel your notions.
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On July 07 2010 10:04 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 08:19 Bill Murray wrote: to reiterate: there are likely only around 9 townies and 4 scum there will be 7 townies and 5 scum tomorrow it is lynch or lose if we do not get information, WE ARE NOT LYNCHING DIVINEK. HE IS A PAWN. WE ARE LYNCHING YELLOWINK. we're lynching you ya scum fuck He's got to be scum - he's being flat out disruptive now. But I'm not convinced he's GF. That's why I think he makes a good block target rather than lynch. Remember that we really need to focus our lynching on GF candidates. If mafia goons are able to draw us to hang them, mafia will eventually win by recruiting. I really don't have much else to say about BM's rants unless they appear to start swaying townfolk. We'll just have to wait and see what daybreak brings.
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We're chill... unless we're in the US northeast. Then we're definitely not chill.
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Clarification - are you saying that L was recruited as a traitor and became mafia, or just being clear that he's mafia aligned?
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On July 07 2010 11:08 youngminii wrote: I am DT. citi.zen is GF.
OH SNAP. Oh snap indeed. I'll buy it unless anyone has any reason to counter it.
For emphasis, mass roleclaim is still bad.
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On July 07 2010 11:12 youngminii wrote: Everyone from this point forward is to claim their roles. Also, you are to vote for citi.zen unless you have something against what I said. If you do, express your concerns asap.
Also, roleblockers please point out who you roleblocked each night. Now I'm suspicious. If you really are DT and you really found the godfather, you know mass roleclaiming is bad. The godfather will shortly be dead. We have this in the bag without the stupid roleclaiming. What is up with this?
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No one roleclaim. Lynch citi.zen unless someone has a reason to counter this. Role block youngminii tonight - if the KP is blocked we have reason to believe the godfather still lives and we can continue about our GF hunting. If the KP is not blocked, we can be confident the godfather is either dead (without popping another coroner) or is youngminii (unlikely, this is a ridiculously bold plan if so). This is so much easier with a dead traitor.
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On July 07 2010 11:20 youngminii wrote: But we can just finish this game in perhaps two days. You're just extending this game. Not true at all. If you're mafia - and I am definitely suspicious of this - roleclaiming is a huge mafia victory. Not only are we going to miss the GF and hang a skilled pro town player, but we're going to have all our roles on the table for the mafia to attack.
If the mafia would like to concede the game to save us the trouble once we lynch citi.zen, that is up to them. If you are pro town, the mafia will know it, and so they will know we have lynched the godfather.
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On July 07 2010 11:25 youngminii wrote: Okay, I guess I wasn't looking at it from the perspective that people can't trust I'm DT 100%.
I understand that if I'm scum, doing this is virtually sealing the townie's defeat. I'll go along with whatever plan is decided upon by the majority. Thank you. This is so refreshing. My stance remains lynch citi.zen, block youngminii, do not role claim. I am willing to discuss these points, but I think they're fairly self evident in their value.
On July 07 2010 11:40 Divinek wrote: why am i still on your hit list if im confirmed townie, make me very sad Because Chez is either scum or just not reading the same thread we are. Obviously!
To be serious, I havn't made any decisions about Chez yet. I lean slightly towards town, though. Unfortunately this can change any day, so yeah.
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On July 07 2010 11:44 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 11:43 citi.zen wrote: Not surprised at all. I told you fake claiming becomes a dominant strategy. The worst that can happen is you lose a goon, but the GF lives. Aka town lost tomorrow.
I sort of don't get why me, but that's OK too. Was it that I ruined the lynching of the lovers? Was I too quiet this game? W/e, gg town - you can't win now.
BTW - bm really is town, checked tonight. I checked L the other night. Confirmed. DT can only check from Night 2 onwards. No reason to doubt me now. Ouch, citi.zen.
Yeah, I'm pretty convinced.
Still the outside chance of this being a 2x goon play to try to convince us that the godfather is dead, but highly unlikely. Stick to our guns. My stance remains. The only thing I'd add is that the jailkeeper should jail youngminii tonight since I find this really convincing. Remember roleblocks still go through on a target that is jailed, so there's no trouble here.
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On July 07 2010 12:17 Bill Murray wrote: being as it's lylo, we are NOT rushing into a dumb decision
if you are a detective, claim omgwtfbbq lol BM even you're not this illogical. I guess BM really is scum. Just give up. No role claims.
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We don't need to double lynch. Town benefits from a slower game - especially with the godfather 95%+ likely to be dead. Since this is day 3 and L is dead, we have two scum to find. We can be reasonably sure that BM is one of them, so we only have one scum to find. Town has far more power than mafia. Double lynch should wait for an endgame situation and nothing else, now.
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On July 07 2010 12:23 youngminii wrote: Lol okay in light of what just happened, I suggest the following strategy:
We are fairly sure that I'm Detective and that citi.zen is GF. There is reasonable evidence that it is so. There is also the scumminess of BM's posts (why would he defend citi.zen after his blatant error?). He also tells DT to claim when I've already claimed.
So, here's what I think. Jailer should jail me. I'll check BM. Roleblocker should block YI or some other person that people think is scum. That way, we can check BM and YI at once.
I for one don't think YI is scum. I think BM might be scum. I think there's enough evidence to prove that I am really a DT and that citi.zen is a liar.
I don't want to be roleblocked simply because that is wasting a DT check. I hear you on that you have the evidence etc etc. The thing is, the godfather is almost all that matters. Once the GF is dead AND we are sure of it, we've practically won. I'm sure there is a lot of blue power hanging out among us. We got lucky that you found the GF right off the bat. If every remaining roleblocker blocks you, we can be extremely sure that you are town. (Contrary to Korynne's belief, I find it hard to see this game designed with only one roleblocker (Ace)). The jailkeeper keeps jailing you and it'll be nearly impossible for the scum to win.
The only way I could see it being worthwhile to not block you the one time is if a coroner wants to pop on night 3 (if we have a third). I'm not sure that this is the best strategy even if we have a coroner. I'd be willing to debate this, though. The problem is that if citi.zen turns out to be a goon and you are also a goon and this convinces the town that you are a real DT (because we neither blocked you nor checked that the godfather was dead), that's mafia victory again. I could see the two living scum making this plan especially considering the GF gets to keep recruiting.
So one way or the other we need to at least confirm you're not a goon or that citi.zen is a dead godfather to ensure the town victory.
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I almost feel silly for doing this, but I don't want to see any accidental slip ups. Probably the last time I'll do this for a bit.
We are not role claiming.
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The number one thing we need to do as town is stay focused. BM is trying to shake things up. That's his prerogative. It's because he's probably red and he'll get lynched tomorrow.
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On July 07 2010 12:38 Bill Murray wrote: im not fucking red im going to get killed in the night 100% You're not going to get killed in the night 100% because the red knows we're going to lynch you for being red anyway. Besides, mafia rarely kill their own and certainly not in a 2vLots circumstance.
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On July 07 2010 12:39 BrownBear wrote: Let's talk about Abenson. L claimed he was scum in his death post, now thanks to Divinek we know L was both traitor and scum. Do we think this clears Abenson, or do we think the GF recruited him?
Personally, I'm thinking he is town. L was red when he posted. All he was looking to do was sow confusion. It is possible that Abenson was recruited, but highly unlikely. We can have him investigated eventually - we're going to have so many investigates that we'll have no trouble winning this game.
If youngminii is for real (and it's 90% likely that he is), we've got this game in the bag already. We've got it so in the bag that we roleblocking youngminii tonight is the best decision because it'll eliminate 9.5 of that remaining 10%. Mafia really probably should just give up right now.
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On July 07 2010 12:40 BrownBear wrote:And now we have pretty good reason to believe DCL is town. I'm assuming Ace was DT or something similar, given he just joined the game so doesn't really have much to go on. Ace was roleblocker. Please read thread. ^^
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On July 07 2010 12:46 youngminii wrote: Problem with me getting roleblocked is, if scum decide not to kill anyone that's a free DT they've killed. Which COULD turn the tides back into their favour (still unlikely though).
I'd much rather check BM before anything happens bad happens. Also yeah, Ace prolly roleblocked DCL last night. But scum KP wasn't blocked so DCL is highly likely not red.
Anyway I'm going out now, will catch up when I get back on. Nah, the mafia will have to give up at least 2 KP to get you lynched. We're probably not going to lynch you tomorrow if there's no KP. We'll block you for at least one more day. If you're a real DT and they give up KP twice, well, I think a DT is worth blocking two KP and lynching a godfather.
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Chez, is all this noise your way of giving up? Are you the scum with BM?
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On July 07 2010 12:52 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 12:50 YellowInk wrote:On July 07 2010 12:46 youngminii wrote: Problem with me getting roleblocked is, if scum decide not to kill anyone that's a free DT they've killed. Which COULD turn the tides back into their favour (still unlikely though).
I'd much rather check BM before anything happens bad happens. Also yeah, Ace prolly roleblocked DCL last night. But scum KP wasn't blocked so DCL is highly likely not red.
Anyway I'm going out now, will catch up when I get back on. Nah, the mafia will have to give up at least 2 KP to get you lynched. We're probably not going to lynch you tomorrow if there's no KP. We'll block you for at least one more day. If you're a real DT and they give up KP twice, well, I think a DT is worth blocking two KP and lynching a godfather. I don't think scum has 2 KP. I mean, there was only one NK last night. Could be because they targeted someone that was jailed or one of em got RB'd but I still think there's a strong possibility that they only have 1 KP. You misunderstand. The mafia will have to give up their KP for two days in a row. Remember that roleblockers can block the same target twice in a row, but not three times. If there's no KP tonight, we block you again to get the best mileage out of it. At this point we would be actively hunting for the real godfather again, so we'd be looking elsewhere to lynch anyway. If there's no KP the following night, then we'd decide if we want to lynch you or if we want to keep you around to block two nights in a row after.
The mafia is in really bad shape right now so long as town doesn't do anything reckless.
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The town plan in summary:
Do not roleclaim Lynch citi.zen Roleblock youngminii Jail youngminii No coroner usage Detectives spy on whomever you think is most likely to be godfather besides citi.zen ** Mad Hatter bomb Bill Murray Ignore Bill Murray's posts Scratch your head at Chezinu Smile if you're town, this game is probably about to end in victory
** This is because we want to plan for our worst case scenario - the 10% I alluded to earlier. If youngminii is playing us and he is in cahoots with citi.zen, we're still on godfather hunt. If citi.zen is really the godfather, we practically can't lose.+ Show Spoiler [Why we can't lose] +youngminii will get to keep getting to DT people and the mafia won't be able to target their hits effectively. After 2-3 nights following, if he hasn't found any scum, youngminii will give us a list of confirmed townies that he'll reveal which will ensure our victory even if he gets killed. We'll be able to mop up with a double lynch endgame. All of this is even assuming we have no other roles in the game besides 1 jailer and youngminii as our DT. I'm sure we have much more than this.
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On July 07 2010 13:57 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 13:54 Bill Murray wrote:On July 07 2010 13:53 Chezinu wrote: Is the other jailer a dreamer? Yes. (i started as one) LOLOLOL How did you jail Hesmyrr twice then? Ahahaha another mafia nailed. I'm glad I will not be faceplanting into my desk at the end of this game.
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On July 07 2010 14:07 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 14:03 DCLXVI wrote: hmm? I thought that BM meant that he started as a jailer, so the "other jailer" would have to be the dream catcher" same Ok, this is fair. Wasn't my first impression, but I see it can be read either way.
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On July 07 2010 14:29 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 14:04 zeks wrote: citi.zen must be gf
desperate but pathetic attempt to save him from BM - knew if GF died it'd be over um... 10v3 with 3 mafia.... uhhhhhhhhhh that's pretty good odds for mafia buddy why would i out myself? im trying to lend the town a different perspective. scummy=/=scum i am a scummy player i am not scum i am a power role, specifically, our jailkeeper. Playing disruptively and this scummy should result in a policy lynch. Fortunately, if youngminii is truthful, we don't need to policy lynch. Also, stop inflating numbers and such to try to get people to roleclaim. Your numbers are wrong. No one is claiming. If you're a town jailkeeper I hope the mafia hits you to save us the failed (read: didn't find scum) detective check. If you survive the night, we might figure test your truthfulness - or maybe a DT will have investigated you anyhow. Jailkeeper obviously don't cover BM since it'll mess up our DT checking if they decide to go with BM, though in fairness I don't think he's likely godfather so probably not worth it, but that'll be up to you. All jailkeepers (including you, supposedly, BM) should jail youngminii.
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On July 07 2010 14:37 Bill Murray wrote: give me 1 reason why it's not possible I'll give you two.
1) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=57#1121
On July 07 2010 11:43 citi.zen wrote: Not surprised at all. I told you fake claiming becomes a dominant strategy. The worst that can happen is you lose a goon, but the GF lives. Aka town lost tomorrow.
I sort of don't get why me, but that's OK too. Was it that I ruined the lynching of the lovers? Was I too quiet this game? W/e, gg town - you can't win now.
BTW - bm really is town, checked tonight. I checked L the other night. The lie.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755#2
On June 27 2010 03:34 DarthThienAn wrote: Detective You have the ability to make night investigations. Once per night, starting on Night 2, you may ask for the role of any player. I will PM you the results at the end of the night (the results will reflect that night’s recruitment). Why it's a lie.
2) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=132755¤tpage=59#1166
On July 07 2010 12:30 citi.zen wrote: Oh my, what a big mistake I've made! You got me guys, good job there. Admission.
I think I'm done with this thread for tonight. Town, play it smart. No claiming. Ignore BM.
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On July 08 2010 01:26 Hesmyrr wrote: Also mass roleclaim is stupid as hell, but I do would like role claim coming from coroner. I looked at the role list and coroner ability activates before mafia kill and recruitment, which makes him a ideal role that can be mod verified. Considering the situation if there are any other Coroner alive, as Dream Catcher who caught the coroner, I recommend him to claim now and pop the ability immediately after n3. It's worth it to absolutely confirm the validity of youngminii-citi.zen conflict.
It's a long shot, but throwing it out here. So if there really is coroner... speak out now?
I think this is better to do night 4.
By far I believe citi.zen is godfather and youngminii is detective. If this is the case we almost can't lose.
If youngminii is goon and citi.zen is goon (a distinct possibility), roleblocking youngminii will reveal suspicion on the circumstances. This costs far less than a coroner, and we can still coroner on night 4 should we choose to. By popping coroner on night 3 in this circumstance, we almost assuredly won't have the tools to counter another DT-fingers-someone claim tomorrow should the godfather be alive. Delaying to at least night 4 improves this situation greatly.
If youngminii is godfather and citi.zen is goon (an unlikely possibility), roleblocking youngminii and having the mafia KP go through will make us trusting of youngminii as DT. We can then pop the coroner on night 4 and get absolute confirmation of the situation. In this case, since we won't be roleblocking youngminii on night 4, he will be getting 1 new recruit. Howerever, since we will know youngminii is neither goon nor trustworthy, he'll be lynched on day 5 and we'll be in a very good position as town.
So in summary, the second situation benefits immensely from coroner delaying to night 4. The third situation is about a wash. The first situation is irrelevant. Therefore the coroner should wait till day 4 to claim (should we even have one) at the earliest.
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On July 08 2010 03:34 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2010 02:02 citi.zen wrote: Too bad I made such a big mistake. Must be more careful next time... It's how you learn. I make a huge mistake every couple games or so ^^ You? Never...
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On July 08 2010 03:51 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2010 03:43 YellowInk wrote:On July 08 2010 03:34 BrownBear wrote:On July 08 2010 02:02 citi.zen wrote: Too bad I made such a big mistake. Must be more careful next time... It's how you learn. I make a huge mistake every couple games or so ^^ You? Never... T_T But seriously, though. Mistakes happen. Generally to me. Are we for sure roleblocking youngminii tonight? I'm still not convinced that he's a better target than BM is. Yes. Simply because the most likely way for us to lose is for youngminii to be a goon. If youngminii is for real, we've already practically got the victory.
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On July 08 2010 04:46 youngminii wrote: You know, it's not THAT unreasonable for 2 scum to overcome 13~ townies. I'm just saying, having the DT in the game is a 100% win. Without, it's 99%. I mean, obviously I don't want to get lynched (assuming scum withhold their NK) and unless there's another DT in the game, I'm not too sure that roleblocking me as a check is the best idea. It's not just 2 scum vs ~13 townies. It's 2 scum vs 13 townies in a game that would have been designed as blue heavy and with a confirmed DT and hidden (I hope, BM lol) jailkeeper(s).
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On July 08 2010 05:28 Bill Murray wrote: sorry that i misunderstood. i thought there was no reason he couldnt be a dt, and it took someone actually saying that.
if you look back on prior pages, across5julys had to correct me on the lack of a night 1 check. it's just very awkward, and i'm not ever going to get use to that, so you all will continue having to correct me.
the better players, ver, qatol, probably even incognito really love the mad hatter role, but criticize the way it is used. I hope it is in the hands of someone like Chezinu who has the ability to actually find reds. Otherwise, it is likely that the idiot hatter will be taking at least one blue out with him if he has a bomb on me. If you DO have a bomb on me, I advise moving it.
My claiming was not to disrupt town. I am a veteran. I was looking to soak a hit from claiming jailkeeper. I feel safe claiming veteran now that we know who the godfather is (assuming youngminii isn't lying) This is more believable, but if this is true, you were way over the top with it.
way
And it still doesn't explain why you wanted 'another' jailkeeper to out themselves, so there is that.
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On July 08 2010 05:29 Bill Murray wrote: being the veteran, though, the only way you all can counterract me having 2 lives is stupidly lynching me and wasting a soakable hit Add in the fact that you claimed this today instead of, say, tomorrow... you know, after the mafia make their hits based on your claim.
You're a liar, Bill Murray.
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For ease of reading, I have condensed Bill Murray's last 9 posts into one post. I object to Bill Murray's method of stifling communication regardless of if he is town or mafia. + Show Spoiler [Bill Murray's babbling] +yadayadayadayada + Show Spoiler +On July 08 2010 05:40 Bill Murray wrote: if you are town you are a terrible player to not endorse that, so you must be scum On July 08 2010 05:40 Bill Murray wrote: i am just telling you how it is On July 08 2010 05:41 Bill Murray wrote: wake up and imagine the possibilities of me being townie, jailkeeper, or veteran
if im townie, which should i claim? jailkeeper if i'm jailkeeper, which should i claim? if im veteran, which should i claim? jailkeeper On July 08 2010 05:42 Bill Murray wrote: me being a veteran, jailkeeper, or townie is irrelevant let's move on to who would be good targets to lynch after citi.zen i can't believe i missed him claiming 2 detections lol On July 08 2010 05:42 Bill Murray wrote: furthermore, please don't quote any of my last 3 posts. just respond to them, please. if you are scum, quote them if you are not scum, and are playing for the town, take my word and don't quote them On July 08 2010 05:50 Bill Murray wrote: ........ THATS WHAT SHE SAID On July 08 2010 05:55 Bill Murray wrote: "you are fail and was"
your grammar is fail On July 08 2010 05:56 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2010 05:51 Hesmyrr wrote: No, you are fail and was were probably hoping for Town jailkeeper to counter-claim you. I'm almost tempted to double lynch you for the terrible "gambit" you just threw. Furthermore, this was not a gambit at all. I have very good ideas for the town from this perspective. More on that later. On July 08 2010 05:58 Bill Murray wrote: still waiting on a scum to quote one of my posts and fall into my trap + Show Spoiler +
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On July 08 2010 06:27 Hesmyrr wrote: OH BURN He quoted all nine, there must be one of your intended scum trap somewhere, rite?
@Abenson: How is YellowInk's post useful? Only thing he did was lump Bill Murray's post together and offer no complete insight about it at all. Also, since BM did not turn out to be jail-keeper, should the amendment to YI plan be necessary? I know it wasn't directed towards me, but until BM decides to say something both intelligent and productive, my stance will remain as such:On July 08 2010 05:34 YellowInk wrote: You're a liar, Bill Murray. If he continues to spam, I will either ignore him or taunt him mercilessly depending on my mood. I'll keep my gaming him sufficiently concise as to not be disruptive, no worries.
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Bill, I am glad you are putting together more thoughtful posts than the spam previously. Take a moment to consider some pairs of things you've presented recently:
On July 08 2010 08:41 Bill Murray wrote: and with that I'M being told I'm "stifling discussion"? you all are the ones pushing a policy lynch on a pro-town player! On July 07 2010 14:29 Bill Murray wrote: scummy=/=scum i am a scummy player i am not scum i am a power role, specifically, our jailkeeper. You say you're a scummy player, then you say you're a pro-town player. This contradicts. Obviously you claim to be town, but there's no way you can claim to be scummy then shortly thereafter claim to be pro town. If you're going to play scummy (which is a valid playstyle), it will have certain repercussions. Double talk like this won't help your case, though. Your play style is not pro town even if you are town aligned.
On July 08 2010 08:41 Bill Murray wrote: ok. if you go back and look through most of citi.zen's posts, they have been negative towards me. On July 07 2010 15:02 Bill Murray wrote: also, what i mean to say is i should have seen him break that jeep's scum tell when he said "bm is town". He wouldn't do that to a fellow mafia member at all. This whole argument on me is WIFOM so give it a rest. You had just gotten done saying that using citi.zen's info was WIFOM, now you're using it to defend yourself. This is scummy play. Not the good kind of scummy play that draws scum out to jump on you. The bad scummy play that just makes you look bad to everyone. There are many more examples like this throughout your thread.
In summary, if you are town, you should at this point make nothing but reserved and well thought out posts. Contribute to the discussion, put in your opinions. If you try to barrel people over they're just going to point back to everything that's happened today and discount what you have to say. If this is the position you wanted to be in, that's cool. If not, hopefully you'll see why what happened happened and set yourself up better next game.
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On July 08 2010 11:36 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +"You say you're a scummy player, then you say you're a pro-town player. This contradicts." No, it does not. I said I'm scummy, NOT scum. Open your mind up YI. Show nested quote +If you're going to play scummy (which is a valid playstyle), it will have certain repercussions. Double talk like this won't help your case, though. Your play style is not pro town even if you are town aligned. FUNNY THAT YOU JUST IMPLIED I'M TOWN ALIGNED. YellowInk just did that in the above post which I quoted for you all. This is scummy. It is scummy because he knows i'm town-aligned because he has a list of who is mafia got my FoS on you because of this, bro. Show nested quote +"You had just gotten done saying that using citi.zen's info was WIFOM, now you're using it to defend yourself. This is scummy play. Not the good kind of scummy play that draws scum out to jump on you. The bad scummy play that just makes you look bad to everyone. There are many more examples like this throughout your thread." the entire case on me IS wifom. It's fabricated, probably by scum. These two quotes you quoted before saying this are both applicable. Citi.Zen and I have been bickering all game. I have been calling his play terrible and traitorous much like I have yours. I'm not worried about next game, BRA, i'm worried about this one. You're not going to sway the town against the one person who feels like he is honestly trying to save it. These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean: Implied, scummy, honestly
You're still a liar, Bill Murray. I don't even know why I try.
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On July 08 2010 12:51 youngminii wrote:Now that SC2 is back up I'll probably be a little less active than I am now Think this goes for basically everyone.
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Ignore BM. Real jailer, jail youngminii.
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On July 07 2010 13:13 YellowInk wrote:The town plan in summary: Do not roleclaim Lynch citi.zen Roleblock youngminii Jail youngminii No coroner usage Detectives spy on whomever you think is most likely to be godfather besides citi.zen ** Mad Hatter bomb Bill Murray Ignore Bill Murray's posts Scratch your head at Chezinu Smile if you're town, this game is probably about to end in victory ** This is because we want to plan for our worst case scenario - the 10% I alluded to earlier. If youngminii is playing us and he is in cahoots with citi.zen, we're still on godfather hunt. If citi.zen is really the godfather, we practically can't lose. + Show Spoiler [Why we can't lose] +youngminii will get to keep getting to DT people and the mafia won't be able to target their hits effectively. After 2-3 nights following, if he hasn't found any scum, youngminii will give us a list of confirmed townies that he'll reveal which will ensure our victory even if he gets killed. We'll be able to mop up with a double lynch endgame. All of this is even assuming we have no other roles in the game besides 1 jailer and youngminii as our DT. I'm sure we have much more than this. Since BM is so good at posting spam that this has been buried under 7 pages of uselessness in the last day, I'm going to leave this here on top. Nothing has changed from this in discussion except I believe Hesmyrr would rather see roleblocks go to BM and a coroner to claim and pop. I disagree with this and still believe the above plan holds to be the best.
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On July 09 2010 11:14 BrownBear wrote: This day cycle has been very frustrating for me watching this thread steadily decline. Please stop, guys. Mostly because there hasn't been much to talk about. I haven't pushed the inactivity issues today because it's pretty clear where we need to go from here. Our only significant danger is if citi.zen ends up not being godfather and/or tonight has no KP drawing suspicion to the blocked youngminii. This being said, people who have used these last 48 hours to say nothing will be getting a good, hard, scrutinizing look tomorrow should this be the case. Then maybe we'll hang Bill Murray anyway, but probably not short of a DT check on him.
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On July 07 2010 13:13 YellowInk wrote:The town plan in summary: Do not roleclaim Lynch citi.zen Roleblock youngminii Jail youngminii No coroner usage Detectives spy on whomever you think is most likely to be godfather besides citi.zen ** Mad Hatter bomb Bill Murray Ignore Bill Murray's posts Scratch your head at Chezinu Smile if you're town, this game is probably about to end in victory ** This is because we want to plan for our worst case scenario - the 10% I alluded to earlier. If youngminii is playing us and he is in cahoots with citi.zen, we're still on godfather hunt. If citi.zen is really the godfather, we practically can't lose. + Show Spoiler [Why we can't lose] +youngminii will get to keep getting to DT people and the mafia won't be able to target their hits effectively. After 2-3 nights following, if he hasn't found any scum, youngminii will give us a list of confirmed townies that he'll reveal which will ensure our victory even if he gets killed. We'll be able to mop up with a double lynch endgame. All of this is even assuming we have no other roles in the game besides 1 jailer and youngminii as our DT. I'm sure we have much more than this. On July 09 2010 22:19 rastaban wrote: Just want to say, nothing has changed since this plan, and it seems like the best.
The one modification being talked about is if we should RB youngmini. I think both methods are about even. I am 99% sure he is town, so leaving it off him so we can get an extra check in while RBing someone else makes sense.
Other than that caveat, only the second item on the list is currently passed. I would recomend all blues follow this revised plan. If we come back with no KP, I'm going to be laying suspicion on youngminii and will not be convinced that the godfather is dead. If you roleblock someone besides youngminii and KP gets blocked, this will make my head hurt and slow us down a lot. All jail youngminii because I am reasonably convinced that he is the DT.
We need to be in agreement about this.
If the mafia chooses not to use their KP because of this plan, well, that's cool. I don't think they will, though. We'll still be getting plenty of advantage from our other DT(s). They'll probably take out zeks, Abenson, or Divinek - a fine cost to pay for confirmation of a dead godfather.
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On July 10 2010 04:06 rastaban wrote: So any plans on what we should shoot for tomorrow?
If there is no kill then suspicion falls on youngminii If there is a kill then most likely we need to keep youngminii jailed and start systematically DTing /RBing suspected mafia.
Now our RB died, and it is such a powerful role I highly doubt we had 2, but maybe the dream catcher caught it. I'm confident we have another RB. Without an active town RB in the midgame it's nearly impossible for town to win in this setup. Having only one RB just doesn't make sense.
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Well this is unfortunate. We appear to have no roleblocker.
We could still be in any of the 3 cases:
90%) youngminii is a DT and we hung citi.zen the godfather, leaving us up against up to 2 goons 9%) youngminii is a goon and we hung citi.zen the goon, leaving us up against GF, youngminii-goon, and up to one more goon 1%) youngminii is the godfather and we hung citi.zen the goon, leaving us up against youngminii-GF and up to 2 goons
It is safe to assume youngminii was jailed. Since he was not roleblocked, scenario 2 can't be eliminated. However, if this is the case, we have one other way to discover it - with a (3rd!) coroner. As I had indicated yesterday, I somewhat agreed with the idea that was presented that having a coroner confirmation would be good, I just didn't want to pop what was likely the last coroner if a roleblock could discern for us the same information. So at this time I am requesting that the coroner roleclaim. This will confirm you as town tomorrow after your ability pops and also provide us with more information to plan how we want to tackle this day.
Should we have no coroner, I believe our best plan is from here on out to fully assume youngminii is precisely who he says he is. The only other option would be to hang him, but this would put us in a situation where if we are in case 1, we are throwing away a huge swath of games won. I don't like this option. So coroner, if you exist, please step up.
Note that in case 1, BM is town. In cases 2 and 3, BM's alignment is indeterminate. So I'm definitely not looking to hang him right now, but that doesn't mean you should listen to him. ::headdesk::
As a side note, since L's plan on day 1 was significantly pro-mafia, I think it's reasonable to assume L was the night 0 recruit. Take this for what you will in your own considerations.
More analysis to come in probably 10-12 hours or after a role claim, whichever comes first. This will be my thoughts for lynching among the populace short of someone coming forward with significant information.
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On July 10 2010 18:37 Bill Murray wrote:shut up, yellowink i am playing perfectly. you are getting my vote for this previous, scummy post also, your scenario 1 is wrong Show nested quote +"90%) youngminii is a DT and we hung citi.zen the godfather, leaving us up against up to 2 goons" jailkeeper + roleblocker = chance of their being only 1 goon. get your facts straight. reading comprehension ftl
I don't really care anymore, BM. Chances are I'm going to have to play the remainder of this game assuming you are town. I just wish you'd play on our team.
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You two (mostly BM) need to stop spamming obvious and commonly known info. You are encouraging the remainder of the town to be inactive. This makes it difficult to find scum.
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On July 11 2010 00:52 youngminii wrote: Well we have to decide on someone to lynch soon. Since we don't have anyone better to lynch as of now, I'll put my vote on YI (I have suspicions on him) but I'd much rather check him at night. Please state your suspicions rather than voting without reason. How am I to defend myself against such an accusation?
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Well, since this thread is dead, and the appointed time has come (and no coroner has claimed), I'm going to finger BrownBear. I like him as the n2 recruit. Compare his early game post quality to his more recent behavior. He has posted a great deal throughout the game, but of late the number of places where he takes a significant opinion or provides productive input to the town has sharply declined. The difference is like night and day.
BrownBear may defend that he has been camp counselor working long days, but this didn't prevent him from providing great input in the early game, nor has it kept him from posting in significant quantity in the more recent areas of the game.
I would suggest rastaban and Chezinu as ideal detective targets for tonight.
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On July 11 2010 06:27 BrownBear wrote: YellowInk - I am not the n2 recruit. I think you are A recruit - not sure which night, but it's irrelevant.
I have voted for you pending you proving to me that you aren't, or someone else proving that a third party IS scum.
If there's any confusion as to whether or not I'm scum, then just have youngminii rolecheck me tonight. I promise you you won't find anything. You are not the first person to call me scum, but you continue in the fine tradition of several (likely town) players in this game of not providing cause. How am I to present a satisfactory defense if you do not provide points for me to counter as I did for you?
I believe zeks to be likely town, but he ninjavoted me. I must believe BM to be town due to the circumstances of the game despite what his posts scream at me, but he also fails to provide reasons. These two have excuses for me to let them off the hook for not providing evidence since it is fair for me to assume they are not scum. You are not in the same boat.
Provide content, provide reasons, provide evidence, make a good case against me. Then I will counter and perhaps be convinced you are not scum.
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On July 11 2010 07:30 Bill Murray wrote:[b]@ Yellowink: [/b Show nested quote +]"Provide content, provide reasons, provide evidence, make a good case against me. Then I will counter and perhaps be convinced you are not scum." He doesn't have to do that at all. Just the feel of your posts this game feel like you believe that the town needs evidence to lynch someone who isn't providing any. We don't. Your world of policy is not constructive towards town play, and gets people lynched for the wrong reasons. That's why people hate the way that I play, because I encourage craziness which, believe it or not, if tolerated, is pro-town. When you get into policy-lynching over "VI" players (village idiots) like myself, abenson... johnnyspazz? i don't know who else. It's different person to person because everyone has different opinions, it really stifles the ability to properly get scum to flail and squirm because you are focusing more on "bad posters" and why someone is doing what they're doing, when to properly be town, and for this website to be better at being town, people need to focus on WHAT they're doing. I am not 100% you are scum, my gut tells me you are, which is good enough for me. I am hesitant to really lynch anyone at this point, as everyone is so likely town, though. I would not mind lynching someone who is more inactive and trying to hide, though. DCLXVI would be a good target in that regard I understand this line of thinking. Often you can use this sort of gut feeling to point yourself in the right direction. Unfortunately, if you are a town player and fingering another town player and using this kind of 'logic', scum can agree with you (similarly providing no reason), and the town on defense has no way to provide defense to the argument. This makes the town ripe for bandwagoning. Therefore, I demand evidence. If no reasoning is provided, you just make it too easy for scum to take advantage of your gut.
Consider that my gut is screaming that you are mafia. youngminii to some degree as well. Unfortunately, if you two are mafia, we've already lost the game. I therefore play as though you are town despite my instinct. Obviously this argument does not apply to me - I am not a 'confirmed' townie, so I am a reasonable target for a lynch.
For my generic defense as a town player, I would point to my posting record and all that I have contributed to the understanding of this game as well as formulate and disparage strategy where appropriate. I initiated the game pointing out that everyone should contribute. From this base of knowledge there is now a great deal of information now to be gleaned. Further, I would say that among all the players in this game, I have been one of the leading contributers with respect to assisting the town in finding what direction to take - what is good vs what is not as good. Many examples of my behavior can be found throughout this thread that significantly benefit the town.
To go on about those who are 'confirmed' town, zeks also gets a pass in this respect since the real masons would have come out to finger zeks today at the very latest, so you can now consider him confirmed town. Since Ace roleblocked DCLXVI on night 2, you can also know that DCLXVI is town since if DCLXVI was even the night 2 recruit, the mafia KP would have been blocked since recruitment occurs before mafia KP. Beyond this is merely conjecture, but considering we have 4 confirmed townies, I think it is reasonable for zeks' mason companion to reveal. I would be more comfortable with this and zeks confirming while alive with his own voice than after death as I suspect that zeks did not provide a very secure cryptogram.
For now my vote remains on BrownBear for the reasons I stated earlier. It is believable that his counseling started at the time which I notice the significant difference, but it doesn't explain why he is able to still post a similar amount of quantity while the quality sharply drops.
If anyone has questions about my actions and cares to frame them in a manner better than their 'gut', I would be glad to respond.
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You found BrownBear convincing? He didn't even address the entirety of the point of why I voted for him. Yeah, I know he's got his new job, but he's still found the time to post an awful lot but suddenly not be contributing. He then voted for me stating in the vote thread that it was a semi-placeholder but also that he didn't want to die (condoning the bandwagon on me). What does someone have to do to convince you that they're red, BM? I'm curious?
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Yo, town, you guys need to play, and not just when you're having votes leveled at you. I'm currently on the block to be lynched with 3 votes: zeks' ninjavote, youngminii's unexplained "I'm suspicious of you" vote, and BrownBear's "semi-placeholder I just don't want to die" vote. You all know that if you basically abstain (ie vote for yourselves) from voting, don't participate in discussion, etc etc, that the mafia will win with the power of 1-2 votes, yes?
So play. Talk. Vote. Use your townie power.
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Just to throw this out there. If Bill Murray really is the jailkeeper (I think there's a decent chance he is the vet or a townie, only BM/youngminii know this for sure), then I'd put Hesmyrr in the 90% likely to be town list. It's unlikely in any case that Hesmyrr was the night 0 recruit.
First note that L's plan was a pro-mafia plan. He would have done this regardless if he were just the traitor or the n0 goon recruit. However, note that citi.zen is known as a strong and experienced player. I find it unlikely that upon seeing L present his plan that he would have chosen to recruit L. Even if L is town and not traitor, let him wallow in his flawed logic (which obviously it ended up as not) and help the mafia anyway. Sure, it's possible L was recruited later, I just think it's unlikely.
This means that if BM really is jailkeep and jailed Hesmyrr night 1 and 2, Hesmyrr is clear.
Also, DCLXVI is clear as has been stated both by myself and him. DCLXVI was marked innocent by Ace upon his death. Ace roleblocked DCLXVI on night 2, so DCLXVI was not the n0, n1, or n2 recruit. citi.zen was lynched on d3, so DCLXVI is town.
Also, Hesmyrr, double lynch does not work the way I think you think it works. Passing double lynch (which means majority votes for it) means that the next day we get two votes that we must put on different people. Double lynch does not benefit us unless youngminii dies. Each day we're going to get a new confirmed townie, have a confirmed townie hit, and lynch another unconfirmed townie. This will result in a swift victory for the town since we have 4 confirmed townies. If the scum hit youngminii, he will give us his final DT result in his death, so we will still have 4 confirmed. We'd then pass a double lynch to take the victory in the following two days lynching 5 unconfirmed people and having two confirmed hit by mafia over the 3 days also resulting in a victory. If we use a double lynch now, we can fall just short of victory if mafia gets really lucky.
Assuming we have a jailkeeper at all, by the numbers, the game is currently sealed (just barely) since we have another mason to claim excepting the danger of the mad hatter blowing up any of our confirmed townies. We are not in a rush to lynch people via double lynch. We want to ensure the mad hatter keeps the bombs on people who are unconfirmed. Also of note, if we assume L was the n0 recruit, by the numbers (which youngminii and BM only know), we have the game sealed +1 if BM is the jailkeeper since this also clears Hesmyrr. However, we should continue to play the game as safely as possible to secure the town victory. A mad hatter can mess things up if we're not careful.
Now, lets get focused on the people who are likely to be scum and hang them (one at a time).
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On July 12 2010 02:15 Hesmyrr wrote: Of course this plan only works if Bill Murray is indeed jailkeeper; Bill Murray, having confirmed as Town, you can swear that you are not fake-claiming jailkeeper correct?
YellowInk, with double lynch we can outpace mafia kill and prevent mafia from somehow overcoming current situation later on. I think it would be highly beneficial for us to vote for double lynch today so we can use it tomorrow. Can you specifically explain a scenario where my plan fails (minus youngminii not being DT) so you can justify your opinion not to use double lynch? Sure. We lynch rastaban, who for whatever reason never trusted youngminii/BM despite it being our best route for victory. He had his bombs on youngminii and BM who then immediately die. Town can definitely lose from this kind of position.
This is an extreme example, but there are other similar examples that can be made. This is also not a commentary on rastaban's choices or thoughts, just giving an example of someone who might get lynched since the town can't seem to settle on someone to hang.
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For the record, I'm not convinced we hung the godfather. I can't imagine a game filled with this many strong players continues to fail to see so many things that are obvious. Unfortunately we were not given the tools to counter a straightforward mafia play, so we must simply stay true to the most likely path to victory.
As I've presented numerous significant arguments and the town seems intent on lynching me (Hesmyrr, youngminii, zeks) without expressing any cause, I'm going to try just being quiet for the next 9 hours and see if you guys can just come to a reasonable conclusion on your own. I'll answer any questions asked directly of me, but beyond that, this inaction is maddening and I want no more part of pushing this boulder up a mountain.
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Well since it's apparent that people are set on my lynch, I'll give my final thoughts before I hang. I have no death post - I am townie, I have no secret info.
On July 12 2010 03:46 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 02:43 YellowInk wrote: For the record, I'm not convinced we hung the godfather. I can't imagine a game filled with this many strong players continues to fail to see so many things that are obvious. Unfortunately we were not given the tools to counter a straightforward mafia play, so we must simply stay true to the most likely path to victory.
As I've presented numerous significant arguments and the town seems intent on lynching me (Hesmyrr, youngminii, zeks) without expressing any cause, I'm going to try just being quiet for the next 9 hours and see if you guys can just come to a reasonable conclusion on your own. I'll answer any questions asked directly of me, but beyond that, this inaction is maddening and I want no more part of pushing this boulder up a mountain. If your not convinced that we killed the godfather then chances are as of tonight, town has lost. I say that because it would mean the GF would have had time to a) recruit our jail keeper and b) as of tonight recruit the dt (provided neither were red already) giving the mafia the ability to fake clear/convict people while still growing. At this stage of the game, based on current town beliefs, a surviving GF means GG. We cannot afford to think like this. Preaching to the choir. Just pointing out that everything that BM has been doing has been pro-mafia, but since we're in a state that we have to assume he's town due to lack of tools provided to us, the situation is retarded.
Suprising that you should choose to vote for me on this when I've been saying - and even clearly set out the above situation for the town - precisely what you're posing here. You don't vote for all the other people who say, "What if GF?? You just choose to jump on me when I'm pointing out the actual endgame situation.
Here's a good target for you, youngminii. Assuming my words are even worth anything to you.
On July 12 2010 03:49 Bill Murray wrote: i wasnt recruited, so... :p this is assuming that i wasnt jailed in relation to being recruited, and that on n1, n2, or whatever nights he has been recruiting, that he wasnt roleblocked and his target wasnt jailed.
you are not taking every variable into consideration here It would probably help everyone if we knew who you were talking to or what you were talking about. You do this frequently. Fix it.
On July 12 2010 05:32 zeks wrote: Theres no point in wasting a DT check one of us thats just wasting our limited DT checks.
In fact I think I'm just as confirmed as BM/Hesmyrr if not more.
The 2nd mason will unlock the message with the key I've given him. If that doesn't satisfy all of you we can do it any way you want.
Issue of whether there are masons or not:
Would mafia bet on there be no masons this game and claim early on to gain "permanent" immunity? That's retarded.
You are more confirmed than Hesmyrr, but less so than Bill Murray/youngminii. There is the chance that there are no masons. You and your goon buddy could be hiding under cover of being masons and the game has no masons. I find this unlikely, but it is a possibility. Considering we were only given one roleblocker, I'm willing to accept pretty much anything in this setup now. I already outlined why you could have opened the game with your strategy as a goon. However, by day 4, if there are any masons, you are it.
On July 12 2010 05:54 zeks wrote: the justification behind him not claiming:
if the gf is alive it makes him harder to recruit (can't recruit masons unless roleblocked) so gf waste recruiting power
if the gf isn't alive then in the case the discussion is steered the wrong direction and he's about to be lynched he will claim
if the case my mason partner dies before me i'll unlock the code myself which will decipher my partners name - whether you guys believe me would be up to your discretion but what incentive would i have to lie Posts like this make me wonder why I post. Half the town apparently doesn't read the thread anyway. I'm tired of preaching 'stop being inactive' game after game.
Good luck, town!
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Mafia got incredibly unlucky here. If the GF can stay under the radar till day 5 or so, it's practically unwinnable for town with the number of blues we had. This is why I was convinced we had at least two roleblockers - how can you honestly expect the GF to be found by the midgame? You need some way to draw the game out and have a reasonable chance for a town win without finding the GF in the early game. This kind of setup is just really swingy.
Since mafia hadn't conceded and BM being ridiculous, when I was lynched I was convinced youngminii was mafia. I figured we were looking at a mafia victory. With all the lying that was going on in the town, I don't see how we could have won without the streak of luck even if it were a level game.
Since most of you wouldn't tell me in thread, I'm curious what convinced you guys I was mafia?
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So it seems like almost everyone voted for me because everyone else voted for me. A true bandwagon. I wasn't too worried about it in game because short of catastrophe, I knew town would win unless youngminii was scum - in which case we had already lost. It is fair to say that I was among the unconfirmed and I along with the 4 or so others needed to either be killed or investigated, so whatever works.
All of you who are reading this should be looking at each other and seeing how it clearly was a bandwagon - there was no clear reasoning, most were voting because they had nowhere better to go. Think about this each time you hang someone and you may save a pro-town player in a future game.
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On July 15 2010 02:53 youngminii wrote: I completely agree that it was a bandwagon and that it was started by me. I also agree that it is very bad play and shouldn't happen, even if town has pretty much won already. Well sometimes it just happens. It can be hard to tell when it's a bandwagon, a railroading, or what. I did keep asking for reasons and I kept not getting them (for the most part), so that should've made it pretty blatant in thread.
This all being said, some people are really hard to figure if they're scum. The point is just that it should be a hanging from a culmination of active discussion, not apathetic lets hang whomever - ok I'll go along with that guy. Maybe I was the best hang because of some little thing I did in the early game. But it should be because of that (and reasonably clearly so), not because 'everybody's doing it'.
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On July 15 2010 06:46 Hesmyrr wrote: Well, I mean it was really obvious it was bandwagon. I just didn't care :p ##vote Hesmyrr
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