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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On October 12 2014 05:33 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 05:26 Lonyo wrote:
Looper destroyed Acorn in all the matches. 52 KDA straight up. Crazy. Looper showing amazing play on carry/assassin tops seems like a revelation to me.* *I don't get to ever watch OGN anymore, so perhaps he has broadened his horizons beyond teleport tanky tops and I was just unaware until now.
Up until now he was still tanky tops (Has a pretty nice rumblings though) so the akai was definitely left field
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On October 12 2014 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 05:10 iCanada wrote:
What blows my mind about Samsung is like... not only are they so ahead, but I dont think anyone in the world can match the team infrastructure that they have being sponsored by Samsung.
Thats like... Basically they have a blank cheque, SSW/SSB could spend however much they want and it would never bounce.
Its the equivalent of Shell, Exxon, or General Electric sponsoring TSM and C9. Its unreal. The amount of potential cash flow is not even close to comparable.
Cashflow has no real correlation to performance beyond a certain point that is well within reach of organizations like CLG/Curse/C9/TSM/EG ect ect
I disagree.
I think there is obviously a huge amount of diminishing returns per dollar spent on how much it improves performance, but Samsung got to the top of the Phone industry by R&D, eliminating wastes, being efficient, keeping their employees happy and motivated. The difference between being able to put in 10 million dollars a year on a whim and being able to put in 1 million year is likely not as huge as the difference between putting in 200K a year so the players can afford to have a place to live and eat and having no sponsorship, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you dont think Samsung is giving their squads some big advantages with that extra cashflow and infrastructure. Maybe its only a 5% increase, maybe its only a 1% increase, but when you are already talking about the top 99th percentile, thats a big deal.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 12 2014 05:44 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2014 05:10 iCanada wrote:
What blows my mind about Samsung is like... not only are they so ahead, but I dont think anyone in the world can match the team infrastructure that they have being sponsored by Samsung.
Thats like... Basically they have a blank cheque, SSW/SSB could spend however much they want and it would never bounce.
Its the equivalent of Shell, Exxon, or General Electric sponsoring TSM and C9. Its unreal. The amount of potential cash flow is not even close to comparable.
Cashflow has no real correlation to performance beyond a certain point that is well within reach of organizations like CLG/Curse/C9/TSM/EG ect ect I disagree. I think there is obviously a huge amount of diminishing returns per dollar spent on how much it improves performance, but Samsung got to the top of the Phone industry by R&D, eliminating wastes, being efficient, keeping their employees happy and motivated. The difference between being able to put in 10 million dollars a year on a whim and being able to put in 1 million year is likely not as huge as the difference between putting in 200K a year so the players can afford to have a place to live and eat and having no sponsorship, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you dont think Samsung is giving their squads some big advantages with that extra cashflow and infrastructure. Maybe its only a 5% increase, maybe its only a 1% increase, but when you are already talking about the top 99th percentile, thats a big deal.
That's why Samsung KHAN won Proleague once in last 14 years.
Clearly cashflow.
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On October 12 2014 05:44 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 05:15 Gorsameth wrote:On October 12 2014 05:10 iCanada wrote:
What blows my mind about Samsung is like... not only are they so ahead, but I dont think anyone in the world can match the team infrastructure that they have being sponsored by Samsung.
Thats like... Basically they have a blank cheque, SSW/SSB could spend however much they want and it would never bounce.
Its the equivalent of Shell, Exxon, or General Electric sponsoring TSM and C9. Its unreal. The amount of potential cash flow is not even close to comparable.
Cashflow has no real correlation to performance beyond a certain point that is well within reach of organizations like CLG/Curse/C9/TSM/EG ect ect I disagree. I think there is obviously a huge amount of diminishing returns per dollar spent on how much it improves performance, but Samsung got to the top of the Phone industry by R&D, eliminating wastes, being efficient, keeping their employees happy and motivated. The difference between being able to put in 10 million dollars a year on a whim and being able to put in 1 million year is likely not as huge as the difference between putting in 200K a year so the players can afford to have a place to live and eat and having no sponsorship, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you dont think Samsung is giving their squads some big advantages with that extra cashflow and infrastructure. Maybe its only a 5% increase, maybe its only a 1% increase, but when you are already talking about the top 99th percentile, thats a big deal.
I don't think you know what you are talking about.
It's easy to retrospectively explain things as "cashflow = great infrastructure for samsung lol teams" but this correlation has no predictive power. SKT and KT are enormous telecom companies, CJ Group (of CJ Entus) is basically Tencent, and yet there were points at which their respective esports teams were dominant and terrible.
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I never said Cash flow would win everything for you, I just said it gave you an advantage.
Two people are setting out to do the same thing. One of them has 20 billion dollars. The Other has 10k. Given absolutely no other information, who do you think probably does better?
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On October 12 2014 06:20 iCanada wrote:
I never said Cash flow would win everything for you, I just said it gave you an advantage.
Two people are setting out to do the same thing. One of them has 20 billion dollars. The Other has 10k. Given absolutely no other information, who do you think probably does better?
All of the OGN teams have good sponsors, at least at the level where their infrastructure plays much less of a part than the other variables (coaching, analysts, players, etc). Are you suggesting that Samsung is the 20 billion, and another team is 10k ? Because that is a huge discrepancy that I'm sure doesn't even exist amongst the worst supported and best supported teams.
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On October 12 2014 05:36 Fusilero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 05:33 red_ wrote:On October 12 2014 05:26 Lonyo wrote:
Looper destroyed Acorn in all the matches. 52 KDA straight up. Crazy. Looper showing amazing play on carry/assassin tops seems like a revelation to me.* *I don't get to ever watch OGN anymore, so perhaps he has broadened his horizons beyond teleport tanky tops and I was just unaware until now. Up until now he was still tanky tops (Has a pretty nice rumblings though) so the akai was definitely left field
I'm pretty sure everyone in Korea plays Kassadin top too. So, it's not completely odd. I just enjoyed the pick since he seemed to have specifically prepared it for the kayle top pick
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On October 12 2014 05:23 Fionn wrote:
With all these failures by Blue and Shield, Arrows/SKT T1 K exploding and everything else, I can talk myself into Blaze being the 2nd best Korean team
#delusionalfanboy
Stealths and Sword can come too.
SKT is an easy fix by plugging S's bot in for K. KT quick fix by scrapping everything and picking up Blue.
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Just finished watching SSB vs SSW. Wow. What a freaking stomp.
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On October 12 2014 06:37 meowmasta85 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 06:20 iCanada wrote:
I never said Cash flow would win everything for you, I just said it gave you an advantage.
Two people are setting out to do the same thing. One of them has 20 billion dollars. The Other has 10k. Given absolutely no other information, who do you think probably does better? All of the OGN teams have good sponsors, at least at the level where their infrastructure plays much less of a part than the other variables (coaching, analysts, players, etc). Are you suggesting that Samsung is the 20 billion, and another team is 10k ? Because that is a huge discrepancy that I'm sure doesn't even exist amongst the worst supported and best supported teams.
Not at all.
All I said is no team has the potential infrastructure Samsungs teams could have.
When did TL become so... angst-y? Everyone is assuming everyone else is saying stuff they actually aren't.
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I think I would have enjoyed the games more if I wasn't so confused by the picks. Blue had to know that this was likely the most challenging series they would have at worlds and they go for what I can only describe as wonky picks. They are a pro team so I assume they know better than me but in my opinion the only good picks were Lee/Yasuo game 1, Ryze/Kha'Zix game 2 and Rengar/Ryze game 3. If you are going to pick Janna then you should pick a hyper scaling ADC that warrants devoting an entire character to disengage instead of a mid game powerhouse like Lucian. I won't even get into the Galio and Varus picks because all I can guess is that they were hoping for a solo queue laning arrangement and that was never going to happen.
I just can't help but think that if they stuck to more standard in meta picks these games would have really been something to behold. As is, I don't think these games even help us know which team is better.
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On October 12 2014 08:45 Velocirapture wrote:
I think I would have enjoyed the games more if I wasn't so confused by the picks. Blue had to know that this was likely the most challenging series they would have at worlds and they go for what I can only describe as wonky picks. They are a pro team so I assume they know better than me but in my opinion the only good picks were Lee/Yasuo game 1, Ryze/Kha'Zix game 2 and Rengar/Ryze game 3. If you are going to pick Janna then you should pick a hyper scaling ADC that warrants devoting an entire character to disengage instead of a mid game powerhouse like Lucian. I won't even get into the Galio and Varus picks because all I can guess is that they were hoping for a solo queue laning arrangement and that was never going to happen.
I just can't help but think that if they stuck to more standard in meta picks these games would have really been something to behold. As is, I don't think these games even help us know which team is better.
I assume the reasoning is that they try to trick out White.
These teams have played hundreds of games against eachother, I guess blue knew they could not win the standard match.
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On October 12 2014 08:45 Velocirapture wrote:
I think I would have enjoyed the games more if I wasn't so confused by the picks. Blue had to know that this was likely the most challenging series they would have at worlds and they go for what I can only describe as wonky picks. They are a pro team so I assume they know better than me but in my opinion the only good picks were Lee/Yasuo game 1, Ryze/Kha'Zix game 2 and Rengar/Ryze game 3. If you are going to pick Janna then you should pick a hyper scaling ADC that warrants devoting an entire character to disengage instead of a mid game powerhouse like Lucian. I won't even get into the Galio and Varus picks because all I can guess is that they were hoping for a solo queue laning arrangement and that was never going to happen.
I just can't help but think that if they stuck to more standard in meta picks these games would have really been something to behold. As is, I don't think these games even help us know which team is better.
Janna synergizes very well with Lucian. She supports his lane dominance with her AD amplifying shield, helps his mobility in teamfights with her passive and offers generally nice peel. Blue´s teamcomps were a bit questionable, but more in their mid and toplane picks. There was a plan behind the Galio, but I think they forced themselves too hard into that Ryze pick, which didn´t work out at all, because the games very much too fast pased.
Varus is fine, Deft plays him very well, but it didn´t work out in the end. Pawn was like 0.2 secs to quick to react to the first lvl 6 gank by Deft. If his ult hits there, we might see a totally different game. I would also point out, that in every game, there were some very tiny factors, that snowballed those games very hard. If they go just the other way, I wouldn´t say Blue would´ve won automatically, but we would have had much closer games. I think Blue were a bit unlucky at times, while also playing a bit worse, but that lead to these incredible one sided games.
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On October 12 2014 07:58 iCanada wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 12 2014 06:37 meowmasta85 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 06:20 iCanada wrote:
I never said Cash flow would win everything for you, I just said it gave you an advantage.
Two people are setting out to do the same thing. One of them has 20 billion dollars. The Other has 10k. Given absolutely no other information, who do you think probably does better? All of the OGN teams have good sponsors, at least at the level where their infrastructure plays much less of a part than the other variables (coaching, analysts, players, etc). Are you suggesting that Samsung is the 20 billion, and another team is 10k ? Because that is a huge discrepancy that I'm sure doesn't even exist amongst the worst supported and best supported teams. Not at all. All I said is no team has the potential infrastructure Samsungs teams could have. When did TL become so... angst-y? Everyone is assuming everyone else is saying stuff they actually aren't.
But still it wouldn't make sense, since there's an upper limit to howmuch cash you can pump into/infrastructure you can set up before it becomes useless to put more resources into it. Oversaturation will only lead towards inefficiency.
And that's just the thing, SKT, KT and CJ probably have around the same amount of resources/infrastructure invested into their teams as Samsung since, you know, they're also quite huge.
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Well it has to be Samsung Jayce now with Dade's jacket; although that is pretty similar in style to debonair Jayce.
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On October 12 2014 10:42 miicah wrote:
Well it has to be Samsung Jayce now with Dade's jacket; although that is pretty similar in style to debonair Jayce.
975/975, would buy.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 12 2014 10:17 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 07:58 iCanada wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 12 2014 06:37 meowmasta85 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2014 06:20 iCanada wrote:
I never said Cash flow would win everything for you, I just said it gave you an advantage.
Two people are setting out to do the same thing. One of them has 20 billion dollars. The Other has 10k. Given absolutely no other information, who do you think probably does better? All of the OGN teams have good sponsors, at least at the level where their infrastructure plays much less of a part than the other variables (coaching, analysts, players, etc). Are you suggesting that Samsung is the 20 billion, and another team is 10k ? Because that is a huge discrepancy that I'm sure doesn't even exist amongst the worst supported and best supported teams. Not at all. All I said is no team has the potential infrastructure Samsungs teams could have. When did TL become so... angst-y? Everyone is assuming everyone else is saying stuff they actually aren't. But still it wouldn't make sense, since there's an upper limit to howmuch cash you can pump into/infrastructure you can set up before it becomes useless to put more resources into it. Oversaturation will only lead towards inefficiency. And that's just the thing, SKT, KT and CJ probably have around the same amount of resources/infrastructure invested into their teams as Samsung since, you know, they're also quite huge.
I agree with this. I think in a vacuum, iCanada, you could hypothesize that Blue and White leveled up through the improved financial backing, infrastructure, etc from moving from MVP to Samsung. However, when compared to the other top tier teams, you realize that SKT, KT, CJ all have comparable deep pockets. Although I have no proof, I don't think money is an issue to the point where one sponsor (eg Samsung) is outspending the others. There are plenty of things to look at from coaching to drafting and player champion pool depth as reasons to Blue and Whites success this season. Difference in the amount of sponsorship seems like a weak reason to attribute the Samsung teams' growth.
I don't think anyone was jumping on you, mate. Just the overwhelming majority of posters disagreed with your premise.
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
Nvm. Browsing TL on mobile sucks.
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youtube stream linked on front page dawg.
In an unrelated note I won a triforce keychain off a raffle and some rp at a lan today :D
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EPT
