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On September 17 2013 21:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 21:28 Lysanias wrote:
Yet the chinese with alot less time play him aswell, sorry i can't really agree. "The Chinese", when the best Chinese team has beaten a trash NA team and snowballed a game super hard in the first 5 minutes against T1 tells you they understand this version better than everyone else? Ok. Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 21:30 ExoFun wrote:
The picks aren't so much different of what we see from both team (Fnatic/Gambit) in the regular split. Your making yourself to much of delusional of the more pracc time. And? This version suits those picks much more than 3.09/3.10 did, and the Korean teams didn't get time to adapt to that. Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 21:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
What? No sry but taking bad engagements cause you are out of position and other questionable decisionmaking is not about the new patch at all. Face it, korea as a whole isnt really better as the top european teams and na is still pretty lackluster (except MAYBE c9) in comparison. that has nothing to do with any patches at all, its like that for over a year now. I'm not disputing that Ozone also played bad and still would have lost regardless, but again it's pretty clear that Fnatic and Gambit are far more comfortable and experienced drafting this patch than Ozone.
Who's even talking about the Meta ? All i said was that there is no excuse for Imp not to be able to play Corki after 2 weeks of patch. If even the Chinese can addapt fast enough and see the power of Corki and use him to great effect, why can't Imp ?
You go all the way off track there to try and proof your point ?
Also if you go and do this patch advantage on EU i'd like to hear more about home advantage from NA aswell.
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On September 17 2013 21:33 TheYango wrote:
I'm not disputing that Ozone also played bad and still would have lost regardless, but again it's pretty clear that Fnatic and Gambit are far more comfortable and experienced drafting this patch than Ozone.
Dont know about that, i for one think it was about bad gameplay from Ozone, patches are overhyped and it all comes down to getting your shitt together at the right time (dem "better" mechanics..)
On September 17 2013 21:39 vthree wrote:
I am not sure about top European teams because the top 6-7 teams in EU was pretty close all second split. If anything, there haven't been a really consistent European team. Both Gambit and Fnatic have been inconsistent all season. That might have to due with parity in EU or the teams just fluctuate a lot. And Vulcun did best Fnatic so not sure why you say NA is lackluster. Let's see the whole group stages play out first.
Well thats true ofc, but maybe thats due to the fact that europe as a whole is on a pretty high lvl?
But i agree we should wait for the group stages to finish first^^
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United States47024 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:48 Lysanias wrote:
Who's even talking about the Meta ? All i said was that there is no excuse for Imp not to be able to play Corki after 2 weeks of patch. If even the Chinese can addapt fast enough and see the power of Corki and use him to great effect, why can't Imp ?
You go all the way off track there to try and proof your point ?
San played Corki in 2 games and didn't look all that good doing it. Imp didn't feel confident enough in Corki to play it at all.
As far as I'm concerned, being confident enough to play it but playing it poorly and not being confident because you don't think you can play it well aren't that different in terms of "adapting".
On September 17 2013 21:48 Lysanias wrote:
Also if you go and do this patch advantage on EU i'd like to hear more about home advantage from NA aswell.
It's true, but it's also something you can't really control because somebody is always going to have home field advantage.
Patch advantage was something Riot had control over going into the event, they were just utterly retarded and decided not to play Worlds on a patch that had been stable for more than a month.
On September 17 2013 21:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Dont know about that, i for one think it was about bad gameplay from Ozone, patches are overhyped and it all comes down to getting your shitt together at the right time (dem "better" mechanics..)
Then you clearly have not been watching this genre long enough.
How comfortable teams are with a patch very much goes hand in hand with teams' success in international tournaments, where the fundamental skill level does not actually vary that much.
It affects every single aspect of how the game is played, because the patch determines what champions are strong, which determines what strategies and playstyles must be accounted for. It affects the strategic aspect of the game, drafting, individual champion selection, etc. Even minor patches have an astronomical effect on teams' relative performance at an event.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it is pretty shocking to see world class players have so crippling hero pool limitations.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:53 oneofthem wrote:
it is pretty shocking to see world class players have so crippling hero pool limitations.
???
How "limiting" your hero pool is comes entirely down to the quality of your competition. That is to say how good "good enough" with a champ is comes entirely down to how high the competition sets the bar.
In an international competition where every real contender team for the title is near the limit as far as fundamentals go, it's only natural that any given player can only maintain that absolute top-tier form on less than 5 champs.
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On September 17 2013 21:48 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 21:33 TheYango wrote:On September 17 2013 21:28 Lysanias wrote:
Yet the chinese with alot less time play him aswell, sorry i can't really agree. "The Chinese", when the best Chinese team has beaten a trash NA team and snowballed a game super hard in the first 5 minutes against T1 tells you they understand this version better than everyone else? Ok. On September 17 2013 21:30 ExoFun wrote:
The picks aren't so much different of what we see from both team (Fnatic/Gambit) in the regular split. Your making yourself to much of delusional of the more pracc time. And? This version suits those picks much more than 3.09/3.10 did, and the Korean teams didn't get time to adapt to that. On September 17 2013 21:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
What? No sry but taking bad engagements cause you are out of position and other questionable decisionmaking is not about the new patch at all. Face it, korea as a whole isnt really better as the top european teams and na is still pretty lackluster (except MAYBE c9) in comparison. that has nothing to do with any patches at all, its like that for over a year now. I'm not disputing that Ozone also played bad and still would have lost regardless, but again it's pretty clear that Fnatic and Gambit are far more comfortable and experienced drafting this patch than Ozone. Who's even talking about the Meta ? All i said was that there is no excuse for Imp not to be able to play Corki after 2 weeks of patch. If even the Chinese can addapt fast enough and see the power of Corki and use him to great effect, why can't Imp ? You go all the way off track there to try and proof your point ? Also if you go and do this patch advantage on EU i'd like to hear more about home advantage from NA aswell.
It's quite possible that a lot of players have had past experience on corki while others simply don't like him and never picked him up because they didn't feel like it. Understandable considering corki hasn't been strong for a while, essentially before Imp became pro. Imp has never played corki in his professional career and it's quite possible it's just not his type of champion whereas the chinese players have practiced him on the side at some point even before the trinity changes.
For example, imagine this patch changed it so cassiopia became really strong again and worthy of nearly 100% pick/ban. That would definitely favor certain players over others who have had experience on her and 2 weeks would not make up for that.
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United States47024 Posts
The thing is, when the context is the World Championship, the only things that matter are the things you're the best at. "Good" is not good enough.
Imp might actually be "good" at Corki, we don't know because they haven't had the confidence to pick it. But if you're not good enough to be the best at Corki, it's not good enough to win Worlds.
Proficiency with a champ/playstyle is dependent on your competition. There's no "good enough" when it comes to this level of competition.
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he's clearly just saving his corki for when the games really matter to get a drafting edge in a pivotal match.
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I always thought pros know every champ inside-out, atleast champs on position they play. I cant imagine how a pro gamer in Korea (or any region) doesnt know how to play Corki, Ez. I undrestand not feeling good with playing certain champ (like Piglet who doesnt like Corki according to some) but hey, if coaches and other theory LoL 'professors' (I guess there are many - I even saw cost-efficiency movie about new Ttrinity Force on you tube, nice one) say Corki pwns why the fck not play it or not ban it? It is just plain stupid. Afterall they are pros, they are supposed to know everything about the game and know every match-up! it always comes down to a skill thats true, but u afterall u need some thoery and counterpicks.
PS: In SCBW times there were courses about BW on some university!
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On September 17 2013 22:03 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, when the context is the World Championship, the only things that matter are the things you're the best at. "Good" is not good enough.
Imp might actually be "good" at Corki, we don't know because they haven't had the confidence to pick it. But if you're not good enough to be the best at Corki, it's not good enough to win Worlds.
Proficiency with a champ/playstyle is dependent on your competition. There's no "good enough" when it comes to this level of competition.
Fair enough, if this is the case then they can only go for the 100% ban. I don't think they would have the time to make Imp feel confident on Corki+tri Force or find a counter to it.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 17 2013 22:10 koziol wrote:
I always thought pros know every champ inside-out, atleast champs on position they play. I cant imagine how a pro gamer in Korea (or any region) doesnt know how to play Corki, Ez. I undrestand not feeling good with playing certain champ (like Piglet who doesnt like Corki according to some) but hey, if coaches and other theory LoL 'professors' (I guess there are many - I even saw cost-efficiency movie about new Ttrinity Force on you tube, nice one) say Corki pwns why the fck not play it or not ban it? It is just plain stupid. Afterall they are pros, they are supposed to know everything about the game and know every match-up! it always comes down to a skill thats true, but u afterall u need some thoery and counterpicks.
PS: In SCBW times there were courses about BW on some university!
You say this like ability to play a champ is an absolute, that if Imp can play Corki to X level, it's good enough to take to Worlds.
That's not how it works. If you expect to win with something at Worlds, you better be the best at it. Because if someone understands it better than you and plays it better than you. then they will win. There is no absolute standard of being "good" at a champ or a playstyle.
On September 17 2013 22:18 Lysanias wrote:
Fair enough, if this is the case then they can only go for the 100% ban. I don't think they would have the time to make Imp feel confident on Corki+tri Force or find a counter to it.
It becomes hard to prioritize when there are more than 3 such champs for your team.
In this case, mid is a problem for Dade as well.
It's been more than once that a team has fallen at a tournament thanks to the way that version plays being untenable for their playstyle, or conversely, doing insanely well because the version happened to be really good for it.
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On September 17 2013 22:18 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 22:03 TheYango wrote:
The thing is, when the context is the World Championship, the only things that matter are the things you're the best at. "Good" is not good enough.
Imp might actually be "good" at Corki, we don't know because they haven't had the confidence to pick it. But if you're not good enough to be the best at Corki, it's not good enough to win Worlds.
Proficiency with a champ/playstyle is dependent on your competition. There's no "good enough" when it comes to this level of competition. Fair enough, if this is the case then they can only go for the 100% ban. I don't think they would have the time to make Imp feel confident on Corki+tri Force or find a counter to it.
That still changes everything. In the span of 2 weeks tanky tops like Zac have gone from 100% pick/ban to not even in the bans. That leaves open more bans for guys like Zed/Ahri which completely changes the drafting. Not only that but adc like Vayne were highly contested and even banned now hardly even picked. This is just draft implications, you have to factor in the gameplay shift too.
It's just too short a time to completely change the game before the biggest tournament of the year. Who it favors I'm not sure we can say just yet but the mere fact that there has been such a huge shift in such a short time is terrible for the consistency of the game.
ps: It's hilarious that when the patch got released people said the changes were so small it wouldn't effect the game.
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United States23745 Posts
I understand defending imp, but dade's champs really do seem stuck in the past. Ryze, Ryze, and then Jayce really makes it seem like he didn't practice new champs. I mean his Zed is godly but no one is gonna let him have it.
Edit: Didn't see the Gragas game but from what I saw in the LR thread it didn't sound that impressive.
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United States47024 Posts
Yeah Dade really is the bigger problem for Ozone.
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I think it's a little harder to excuse Dade's limitations in champ pool than Imp's because of how much longer the mid lane landscape has been changing than bot lane. Up until just recently, only a couple of people had picked up on the secret tech Corki (now the cat's out of the bag). Ryze and Jayce haven't been good for 6+ weeks, and Zed is a top priority pick. That means the onus has been on Dade for a while to develop something else, and it hasn't happened.
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On September 17 2013 22:23 onlywonderboy wrote:
I understand defending imp, but dade's champs really do seem stuck in the past. Ryze, Ryze, and then Jayce really makes it seem like he didn't practice new champs. I mean his Zed is godly but no one is gonna let him have it.
Edit: Didn't see the Gragas game but from what I saw in the LR thread it didn't sound that impressive.
No, it wasn't.
It was obvious that xpeke was 20x more experienced in playing AGAINST gragas than dade was actually playing him.
I was hoping for it to be a secretly trained secret, but imo dade couldn't have practiced him much beforehand.
€ grammar es hard.
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On September 17 2013 22:23 onlywonderboy wrote:
I understand defending imp, but dade's champs really do seem stuck in the past. Ryze, Ryze, and then Jayce really makes it seem like he didn't practice new champs. I mean his Zed is godly but no one is gonna let him have it.
Edit: Didn't see the Gragas game but from what I saw in the LR thread it didn't sound that impressive.
Let's just say that if Reginald was playing that gragas then people would be ripping him apart a lot harder than they did for Dade's gragas. It was extremely bad.
Still can't pin this on dade like I said though. Mata and dandy played incredibly bad in their losses as well imo.
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well I just think that any professional gaming bot-lane (or any lane actually, lol) should know or at least have some decent picks vs any given other bot lane (like they should know counter or have confident pick for for exaple Leona & Corki or Dade should have confident pick vs xPekes Orianna and others). Its usually decided in bans and picks phase who get counterpicked and who is counterpicking, but if u r pro, then ur champion pool has to be deeper than Zed, Orianna and Ahri. I undrestand that you have to bring the best u play but when u r pro gamer u should actually be the best in any champion on ur position, especiall in LoL when there are so many patches which infulance the game so much.
New patch? Corki + TF over powered? I am pro gamer I can play Corki so thats not a problem. That is how imo it should look like. You like playing Cait the most? But current metagame favours other champ? as a pro u have to adapt and play what is best to not lose vs others who already picked that up.
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Imp has been the only one that's playing well in Ozone, hopefully they pick it up and show their champion spring form.
To the above: it has already been mentioned that unless you're Faker or something, you are going to have 2-3 signature champs that you play at the highest level. It's unrealistic to think that someone can just suddenly be great at Corki just because the patch favors him. Yango put it well: if you can't play it as the best, it has no place on the world stage.
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EPT
