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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 17 2013 21:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2013 21:53 oneofthem wrote:
it is pretty shocking to see world class players have so crippling hero pool limitations. ??? How "limiting" your hero pool is comes entirely down to the quality of your competition. That is to say how good "good enough" with a champ is comes entirely down to how high the competition sets the bar. In an international competition where every real contender team for the title is near the limit as far as fundamentals go, it's only natural that any given player can only maintain that absolute top-tier form on less than 5 champs.
it seems unlikely that dade is deficient enough in skill so that he literally cannot play ahri at a level of say, ambition or mancloud. if he is able to do this, it would have been much better than his ryze, even though he has top 3 world skill on that hero.
when the game is affected by le nerfbat to such a big degree, so that elite skill on an underpowered option isn't as good as average pro skill on the OP of the version, it seems to be a low effort high reward move to at least be competent on a version's OPs. If there is enough time to prepare, then lack of any ability to play the OPs is a definite black mark on a player.
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On September 17 2013 23:31 Requizen wrote:
That's quite a statement considering how snooze-worthy the last two games last night were.
I thought you weren't supposed to be back until tomorrow. Then I remembered TL is on Korea time.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 17 2013 22:42 Nos- wrote:
Imp has been the only one that's playing well in Ozone, hopefully they pick it up and show their champion spring form.
To the above: it has already been mentioned that unless you're Faker or something, you are going to have 2-3 signature champs that you play at the highest level. It's unrealistic to think that someone can just suddenly be great at Corki just because the patch favors him. Yango put it well: if you can't play it as the best, it has no place on the world stage.
if guys like zuna or genja can play a corki and it's supposedly mechanically simpler than a vayne, then le korean super carry player should be able to play it. i think imp would do fine with the level of corki he has, but they just didn't decide to bring it out because of lack of practice and certainty with that composition.
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United States47024 Posts
It's not so straightforward to just transition your comfort champ from one to another, because that's driven in large part by your natural playstyle and how you learned the game.
It should be pretty apparent that Ahri plays drastically differently from Dade's natural playstyle.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
sure, it may not be his style, but it's been a while since all of his champs were nerfed. i mean, not having anything better than picking ryze and jayce in this meta, from a former rank 1 ladder player? that seems incredible.
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On September 18 2013 00:08 TheYango wrote:
It's not so straightforward to just transition your comfort champ from one to another, because that's driven in large part by your natural playstyle and how you learned the game.
It should be pretty apparent that Ahri plays drastically differently from Dade's natural playstyle.
Not being able to hit a skillshot to save your life isn't a very good style to have
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United States47024 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
if guys like zuna or genja can play a corki and it's supposedly mechanically simpler than a vayne, then le korean super carry player should be able to play it. i think imp would do fine with the level of corki he has, but they just didn't decide to bring it out because of lack of practice and certainty with that composition.
It has nothing to do with mechanics. Mindset, overall gameplan, on-the-fly decision making...a lot of these are ingrained into how someone learned the game or naturally feels comfortable doing things.
These affect the best players just as much as the worst.
On September 18 2013 00:14 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 00:08 TheYango wrote:
It's not so straightforward to just transition your comfort champ from one to another, because that's driven in large part by your natural playstyle and how you learned the game.
It should be pretty apparent that Ahri plays drastically differently from Dade's natural playstyle. Not being able to hit a skillshot to save your life isn't a very good style to have
I'd attribute that to Dade caving under the pressure, given his history of doing so.
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You're making hero transitions sound dramatically easier than it actually is, especially in the professional realm.
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It's easy when a new champion comes out that matches your playstyle. In every other case it's an uphill battle.
New champions are unique in that you're on level footing with your opponents. You're both unfamiliar with the matchup, so your opponent's experience is less important than it otherwise would be. Old champions put you at a disadvantage because your opponents know the matchup, and you don't.
Especially for mid/top lanes, knowing the matchup is extremely important. If one player has no familiarity at all with the matchup and the other does, it's a huge advantage.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i don't think imp's picks are an insurmountable limitation. ozone could just ban corki. but imp on corki shouldn't be that bad, given his ladder games on it and the fact that it's pretty op.
the real problem is dade. if him playing OPs is even worse than him playing ryze, then there's a serious serious problem.
also, the idea that if you can't play a champ at a world class level, then that is the same as not being able to play it either at all, or at a minimum competency, lacks content. because minimum competency is ill defined.
a hero being OP doesn't necessarily mean it is OP by itself alone. being able to fit into a version favored team strategy and composition is also key. sometimes only certain picks are workable for those roles.
if a guy can't play certain champs to maximal mechanical proficiency, but is able to fulfill the role that the champ serves within a version favored strategy, then that's at least better than picking an outdated champ that doesn't allow you to run a version favored strategy at all. thus, there is a difference between not able to play something at a world class level, and not able to play it at all.
i just think getting familiar with how a version favored OP strat works, and what role your mid hero is doing, is a low hanging fruit activity with low cost and pretty high reward. you don't need to dominate the lane with the champ(though often times OPs are OP because they dominate lane), but at least should be able to do its job.
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sOAZ pls. Stop arriving late to fights and dropping 3 enemies to 50% while not getting an assist on the only one to die. My fantasy points. I think there has been 5 (or maybe 6) kills during 5v5 fights where everyone on Fnatic got a kill or assist except for sOAZ. T_T So much potential wasted!
Kaigu's performance against Vulcun was really disappointing. He was lying way too much in front, which got him caught and dropped low several times. He also wasn't able to do his job because he's get poked down before his engages, almost die in 3s inside Defile then flash out.
Getting caught also sometimes got his teammates kileld when they tried to protect him, and he had dubious calls like trying to 1v1 Elise with 2 items on him. Eh. :/
Fucking feeding Genja. At least on Kog he wasn't playing Dora like that. I didn't even finish watching the game, made me disheartened and somewhat mad from the start.
(At least people will realise that Zac is still inherently broken despite the nerfs, what a lemming-train to stop picking him altogether.)
According to CloudTemplar, Alex Ich even follows NLB? Gambit may have a better idea of Sword's level than most other teams at World's then.
On September 17 2013 18:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Remember when Vi started becoming popular? Wasn't a patch or any change, it was when Bengi beat KT B 3-0 with it. The koreans also showed the power of lee sin and that was picked up really quickly as well. Meanwhile the koreans don't really go for things like aatrox which happen to be strong in EU and China.
What. She was always popular from release onward, and after the nerfs she was still picked back up in EU by Aranae and another jungler. They didn't "steal" it from OGN.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:31 oneofthem wrote:
if a guy can't play certain champs to maximal mechanical proficiency, but is able to fulfill the role that the champ serves within a version favored strategy, then that's at least better than picking an outdated champ that doesn't allow you to run a version favored strategy at all.
This is a problem that has been argued about for years in the genre. In the face of a version that does not suit your team's comfort zone, is it better to play a suboptimal strategy optimally, or is it it better to play an optimal strategy suboptimally?
It's not inherently obvious, or even inherently true that playing the optimal strategy suboptimally is better. People have argued about this for years, and there's not really a conclusive answer. You're entirely dismissing the fact that the opposing view is just as legitimate.
Of course Ozone isn't executing their comfortable strategies well either, but that's a separate issue.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 18 2013 00:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2013 00:31 oneofthem wrote:
if a guy can't play certain champs to maximal mechanical proficiency, but is able to fulfill the role that the champ serves within a version favored strategy, then that's at least better than picking an outdated champ that doesn't allow you to run a version favored strategy at all.
This is a problem that has been argued about for years in the genre. In the face of a version that does not suit your team's comfort zone, is it better to play a suboptimal strategy optimally, or is it it better to play an optimal strategy suboptimally? It's not inherently obvious, or even inherently true that playing the optimal strategy suboptimally is better. People have argued about this for years, and there's not really a conclusive answer. You're entirely dismissing the fact that the opposing view is just as legitimate. Of course Ozone isn't executing their comfortable strategies well either, but that's a separate issue.
i'm not dismissing the general question though, just the problem in this particular version. specifically,
1. it should be obvious that ryze sucks really badly, and game version changes tend to swing the nerf bat very heavily.
2. dade is still pretty talented.
this makes the following reasonable conclusions:
3. the level of play with an OP mid that is required to achieve the effectiveness of dade's well played ryze is not "world best" level. it's somewhat below it.
4. given dade's talent, it should not be THAT hard for him to play an ahri or other OPs to the level specified by 3.
so there's a pretty big burden on him to do the low hanging fruit improvement to bolster his arsenal of available picks. this may be just laddering with the OP for a while to be comfortable.
there's also the possibility that it's just a psychological problem with dade. he feels more comfortable with his comfort picks, and has too little confidence in his ahri or orianna, or whatever better mids to even try them. even though if he does try them, they'll be better than his ryze. this may apply to some of his mid champs and not to others, depending on how bad they are.
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I hope Ozone keeps losing until they finally realize that they need to put Homme back in and take out the new guy Looper. In there interviews they said the Homme kept the team mentality in place and was normally the shot caller. They obviously need some of that.
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On September 17 2013 17:05 NeoIllusions wrote:
@5hit, be a little empathetic. We're all passionate fans here. If you insinuate anything about fixing games, there will be users that get feisty, especially the BW veterans. Kiett's reaction shouldn't have been surprising and I do think you overreacted. Only reason I swung the hammer was because of the dick comment, which I viewed as a little misogynist.
I think people are just too kneejerk when it comes to tournaments, plain and simple. M5 brings out Shyvana Jungle at IEM Kiev and completely revolutionize S2, they're heralded as geniuses. They took a risk against Fnatic and it didn't pan out. Sample size of one game, let's not all jump on them, k? They're still tied for first in Group B. Flaming Ozone (coughdadecough) would make much more sense.
Lastly, dat 3.10a patch. SMH.
I think my conspiracy was correct, that Riot did radical changes to gives NA and EU a shot.
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If a persons comfort zone is 2 champions out of 100+ they should just improve.
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On September 18 2013 00:52 GettingIt wrote:
I hope Ozone keeps losing until they finally realize that they need to put Homme back in and take out the new guy Looper. In there interviews they said the Homme kept the team mentality in place and was normally the shot caller. They obviously need some of that.
Yes. It's absurd that he isn't playing right now. Zac is so unplayable right now, and Nasus, and Yorick got nerfed, and Renekton, and Shen is unplayable... OH wait, no they aren't!
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On September 18 2013 00:54 Shikyo wrote:
If a persons comfort zone is 2 champions out of 100+ they should just improve.
dade actually plays more Ezreal and TF than Zed and Ryze, either in pub or OGN.
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Rewatching fnc vs ozone, dem casks man.. Not sure if peke a god or dade a joke
He also masterjuked a shentaunt
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On September 18 2013 01:33 AsnSensation wrote:
Rewatching fnc vs ozone, dem casks man.. Not sure if peke a god or dade a joke
He also masterjuked a shentaunt
Dade is a joke.
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EPT
