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On December 04 2012 03:08 DragoonTT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 02:22 TheYango wrote:On December 04 2012 00:35 DragoonTT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2012 23:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:32 sylverfyre wrote:On December 03 2012 21:30 tobi9999 wrote:sigh, Froggen... his play is so cringeworthy and soloqueue superstar like. like, why the fk would you do this. why can't clgeu be a normal team and just give farm to ad carry lol He instacleared the wave so that they could run down the river and take out mid turret. TBH it's a lot more egregious the game he played Lee Sin against WE. You can make an argument for Anivia's fairly high farm priority and relatively faster creep clear in a game with Anivia+Ezreal. With Kog+Lee Sin? I don't know what world he's living in where it's normal for Lee to be to be ahead of Kog on CS, and still be getting to farm pushed creep waves while Kog defends pushes. Using the 1/2/3 system to describe farm allocation (and thereby importance to the game as rated by the team), CLG has 1. Froggen, 2. Wickd, 3. Yellowpete while most other teams have 1. AD 2. AP. 3. Toplane. This often leads to Pete getting underfarmed during the midgame, as Froggen will happily farm two lanes and the jungle if he can do so safely, thereby forcing Pete to choose less safe locations to farm. The CLG.EU/TPA games are good material to analyze this situation. CLG.EU preferring Froggen and Wickd over Pete in terms of safety becomes really obvious in game 3. The early laneswitches put Bebe (Vayne) and Mistake (Lulu) mid against Froggen (Vladimir), Stanley (Rengar) top against Wickd (Rumble) and Toyz (Karthus) against Pete (Ezreal) and Krepo (Blitz) on the botlane. Froggen is pressured mid, but an early roam from Wickd together with Snoopeh's Amumu score a kill in the midlane. Karthus gets barely any farm on the bottom lane and is repeatedly sent back to base, while Lulu lets Ezreal get most of the experience. As TPA recognizes they cannot kill the mid turret due to Amumu getting near level 6 and Karthus being under too much pressure, TPA switches to more conservative lanes. At this point, Froggen is far ahead of Toyz in gold and exp, Pete is slightly ahead of Bebe in gold and exp, and Wickd slightly leads Stanley in gold, but tails him in exp due to his roaming. As Bebe opts for the early BF Sword instead of choosing a more defensive option, Ezreal can lane her very safely. CLG.EU even picks up a dragon. However, at this point it becomes clear that Stanley bullies around Wickd at will, so CLG.EU send Wickd to a more safe lane against Vayne bottom, while Ezreal and Blitzcrank are supposed to contain Stanley's Rengar that is already 2 levels ahead of them and basically unkillable at this point. Wickd is now fairly safe to farm for a while, but can't pressure Vayne. Froggen is safe to farm against Karthus (and scores a kill on him after diving with Snoopeh and another Wickd roam, using all three ultimates) but ultimately Karthus catches up to him. However, as soon as Krepo leaves the top lane to ward and roam on Blitzcrank, Pete is done for - Stanley takes the (already pretty low) top tower and effectively prohibits Pete from farming. He falls further and further behind Vayne - now CLG.EU don't have one (Wickd) but two champs that are too far behind to matter in the progression of the game. I don't even honestly think it's that bad. There's nothing inherently wrong with a 3rd position AD carry--it just requires certain drafts to suit it, and accepting the playstyle and playing with it in mind. The problem is playing 4-protects-1 drafts and then stealing farm from the 1. If you want to play like that, then don't draft 4+1 teamcomps and misplay them. Considering the game against WE, I don't think they played it too badly. Kog was basically the only one who could deal with the super minions fast enough anyway and was maxed out soon enough - I'd rather argue that Lee Sin was a bad pick to start with and that CLG should keep Rumble away from Wickd. They kinda needed the farm on Lee to be able to make plays, i.e. assassinate Misaya or Weixiao before they kill Pete and win.
I think this is important. They just can run these Lee mid type plays when wickd has such a huge weakness on AP champions. They must either fix this issue or just not run comps like that. I feel like they aren't a team anymore since they don't play or draft like one, they just a group of individuals trying separately to win.
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On December 03 2012 23:54 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:32 sylverfyre wrote:On December 03 2012 21:30 tobi9999 wrote:sigh, Froggen... his play is so cringeworthy and soloqueue superstar like. like, why the fk would you do this. why can't clgeu be a normal team and just give farm to ad carry lol He instacleared the wave so that they could run down the river and take out mid turret. TBH it's a lot more egregious the game he played Lee Sin against WE. You can make an argument for Anivia's fairly high farm priority and relatively faster creep clear in a game with Anivia+Ezreal. With Kog+Lee Sin? I don't know what world he's living in where it's normal for Lee to be to be ahead of Kog on CS, and still be getting to farm pushed creep waves while Kog defends pushes.
@ the end of the game, every character was well above 6 items @ the end and Kogmaw was the most fed one of all. There's no way you can use that as an example of Froggen being selfish.
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On December 04 2012 03:44 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:54 TheYango wrote:On December 03 2012 23:32 sylverfyre wrote:On December 03 2012 21:30 tobi9999 wrote:sigh, Froggen... his play is so cringeworthy and soloqueue superstar like. like, why the fk would you do this. why can't clgeu be a normal team and just give farm to ad carry lol He instacleared the wave so that they could run down the river and take out mid turret. TBH it's a lot more egregious the game he played Lee Sin against WE. You can make an argument for Anivia's fairly high farm priority and relatively faster creep clear in a game with Anivia+Ezreal. With Kog+Lee Sin? I don't know what world he's living in where it's normal for Lee to be to be ahead of Kog on CS, and still be getting to farm pushed creep waves while Kog defends pushes. @ the end of the game, every character was well above 6 items @ the end and Kogmaw was the most fed one of all. There's no way you can use that as an example of Froggen being selfish.
Yeah, you could have. Kog could have gotten to 6items much faster, if it wasn't for Froggen. That spike in powercurve earlier on would've prevented WE from shoving in.
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On December 04 2012 03:44 czylu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:54 TheYango wrote:On December 03 2012 23:32 sylverfyre wrote:On December 03 2012 21:30 tobi9999 wrote:sigh, Froggen... his play is so cringeworthy and soloqueue superstar like. like, why the fk would you do this. why can't clgeu be a normal team and just give farm to ad carry lol He instacleared the wave so that they could run down the river and take out mid turret. TBH it's a lot more egregious the game he played Lee Sin against WE. You can make an argument for Anivia's fairly high farm priority and relatively faster creep clear in a game with Anivia+Ezreal. With Kog+Lee Sin? I don't know what world he's living in where it's normal for Lee to be to be ahead of Kog on CS, and still be getting to farm pushed creep waves while Kog defends pushes. @ the end of the game, every character was well above 6 items @ the end and Kogmaw was the most fed one of all. There's no way you can use that as an example of Froggen being selfish.
lol @ double wingman
It might also have to do with Lee's greater mobility and survivabilty when compared to kogmaw, while kog can easily die farming if caught out, LS can get away from most situations. I also think that treating farm priority in LoL the same way you do in DotA is an incorrect way to approach the game. While AD still scales much harder in terms of overall DPS, giving APs a superlative amount of farm to allow them to instagib a high priority enemy target can be far more worth it given the nature of LoL's teamfights and relative hero strengths. Those two factors, combined with the fact that Froggen as a player is perhaps valued more highly than pete, would likely explain the farm distribution.
The way the Chinese focus farm more upon the ADC is likely due to the DotA backgrounds of a lot of their players and the easiest and most effective/comfortable for their transitions and team-oriented playstyle. It might not be the most effective style in LoL given the way everything scales and the difficulty of building DPS and survivability at the same time. If you look at Fnatic in the games they won against WE you'll notice a premium placed on bursting down targets in fights in terms of team farm distribution, which is far more effective in LoL than it is in DotA and can offer a similarly valid farm distribution to victory.
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Did anything happen in IPL5 to make every ranked game I play have one lee sin? I know he is a popular jungler, but he came up 7 times in a row this week
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We're not saying, that giving AP carries #1 farm position is bad. What we're saying is if you're going to make a 4 protect 1 hypercarry comp, you have to give the ADC #1 farm position.
I'm not a fan of Froggen's mid Lee anyways, especially considering Wickd's complete lack of decent top AP champion pool. It's great as an assassin, and he can do fancy plays, but his impact in game with that kind of farm could be much stronger with the typical AP champ, and it would prevent Wick'd from having to play his shit-tier rumble.
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On December 04 2012 03:28 KissBlade wrote:
I am surprised Nrated isnt' getting a lot of credit for bot. His setups were amazing and he was the main enabler there.
Food for thought:
Considering the TL analysis of team composition for the S2 World Finals, would it be correct to name nRated the "star player" on fnatic that tries to dictate the tempo of the game? We've seen all three of fnatic's laners carry the team at IPL 5, but unless they got a huge advantage due to an opponent misplaying in the laning phase, it usually was nRated on offensive support champions (Zyra, Blitzcrank, Leona) making the plays: he set up dives and team fights to get those little advantages that decide games in the long run. As far as I know, nRated also usually calls the shots for fnatic. I wouldn't be surprised to see him named as one of the most influential and important players of the tournament.
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Baa?21248 Posts
WE has shown that they shift farm allocation and positions based on different teamcomps and how the game is progressing like in dota - AS IT SHOULD BE
you need to be flexible, you cant just unilaterally give froggen all the farm every game and hope he outplays 1v5 and carries.
note how wx wasn't always 1 posaition in these games, its hows how WE has adapted and it was very important to their victory.
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On December 04 2012 05:00 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
WE has shown that they shift farm allocation and positions based on different teamcomps and how the game is progressing like in dota - AS IT SHOULD BE
you need to be flexible, you cant just unilaterally give froggen all the farm every game and hope he outplays 1v5 and carries.
note how wx wasn't always 1 posaition in these games, its hows how WE has adapted and it was very important to their victory.
I wonder how much of it is outright decision? or just how the team comps naturally play out? or how much of it is just gameflow dictating the farm situation?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 03:58 Kupon3ss wrote:
It might also have to do with Lee's greater mobility and survivabilty when compared to kogmaw, while kog can easily die farming if caught out, LS can get away from most situations. I also think that treating farm priority in LoL the same way you do in DotA is an incorrect way to approach the game. While AD still scales much harder in terms of overall DPS, giving APs a superlative amount of farm to allow them to instagib a high priority enemy target can be far more worth it given the nature of LoL's teamfights and relative hero strengths. Those two factors, combined with the fact that Froggen as a player is perhaps valued more highly than pete, would likely explain the farm distribution.
Many of the situations I noticed where Froggen was taking farm were situations involving safe-to-farm pushed-in creep waves, with one or more teammates farming the adjacent jungle.
On December 04 2012 03:58 Kupon3ss wrote:
The way the Chinese focus farm more upon the ADC is likely due to the DotA backgrounds of a lot of their players and the easiest and most effective/comfortable for their transitions and team-oriented playstyle. It might not be the most effective style in LoL given the way everything scales and the difficulty of building DPS and survivability at the same time. If you look at Fnatic in the games they won against WE you'll notice a premium placed on bursting down targets in fights in terms of team farm distribution, which is far more effective in LoL than it is in DotA and can offer a similarly valid farm distribution to victory.
I'm not trying to say it's the only way to play. What I am trying to suggest is that if teams favor a certain style, they should adapt their drafts to suit that style (or adapt their style to suit their drafts).
CLG.Eu picked a comp that would have had the farm priority of 4+1 in any other team's hands.
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How come we don't have VOD voting like in BW LR threads?
I missed all of the last day, any games not worth watching or should I just sit through all of them? I'll probably watch all of the grand finals, but don't really care enough about games where 1 team just gets an advantage and slow pushes while maintaining it (doesn't have to be complete stomp)
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On December 04 2012 04:03 wei2coolman wrote:
We're not saying, that giving AP carries #1 farm position is bad. What we're saying is if you're going to make a 4 protect 1 hypercarry comp, you have to give the ADC #1 farm position.
I'm not a fan of Froggen's mid Lee anyways, especially considering Wickd's complete lack of decent top AP champion pool. It's great as an assassin, and he can do fancy plays, but his impact in game with that kind of farm could be much stronger with the typical AP champ, and it would prevent Wick'd from having to play his shit-tier rumble.
Just because a team picks Kog Maw doesn't mean they have a 4-1 comp. Lee Sin and Rumble are mediocre at peeling for and sustaining a Kog Maw. EU was running an eclectic teamcomp, which is part of the reason they lost. Also Rumble is a bad pick unless you shit on someone early.
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On December 04 2012 05:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:03 wei2coolman wrote:
We're not saying, that giving AP carries #1 farm position is bad. What we're saying is if you're going to make a 4 protect 1 hypercarry comp, you have to give the ADC #1 farm position.
I'm not a fan of Froggen's mid Lee anyways, especially considering Wickd's complete lack of decent top AP champion pool. It's great as an assassin, and he can do fancy plays, but his impact in game with that kind of farm could be much stronger with the typical AP champ, and it would prevent Wick'd from having to play his shit-tier rumble. Just because a team picks Kog Maw doesn't mean they have a 4-1 comp. Lee Sin and Rumble are mediocre at peeling for and sustaining a Kog Maw. EU was running an eclectic teamcomp, which is part of the reason they lost. Also Rumble is a bad pick unless you shit on someone early.
You mean Lee Sin's ulti, that kicks back any diving bruiser, like 20 ft away, and Rumbles AoE super slow? along with his constant application of E's, are bad for peeling?
Rumble not a bad pick, Wick'ds rumble is a bad pick.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:11 xes wrote:
How come we don't have VOD voting like in BW LR threads?
I missed all of the last day, any games not worth watching or should I just sit through all of them? I'll probably watch all of the grand finals, but don't really care enough about games where 1 team just gets an advantage and slow pushes while maintaining it (doesn't have to be complete stomp)
We should. You're absolutely right. Cause let's be honest, not everyone caught every single game. This way people who are actually watching and keeping up with the games can give their opinion on which games were good and which were just methodical slowrolls.
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i dont understand.
they have deman, jatt, joemiller triple combo available and instead use something like phreak/optimus on the mainstream for a lot of games. Often even two action casters without a strategy commentator.
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On December 04 2012 05:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:18 cLutZ wrote:On December 04 2012 04:03 wei2coolman wrote:
We're not saying, that giving AP carries #1 farm position is bad. What we're saying is if you're going to make a 4 protect 1 hypercarry comp, you have to give the ADC #1 farm position.
I'm not a fan of Froggen's mid Lee anyways, especially considering Wickd's complete lack of decent top AP champion pool. It's great as an assassin, and he can do fancy plays, but his impact in game with that kind of farm could be much stronger with the typical AP champ, and it would prevent Wick'd from having to play his shit-tier rumble. Just because a team picks Kog Maw doesn't mean they have a 4-1 comp. Lee Sin and Rumble are mediocre at peeling for and sustaining a Kog Maw. EU was running an eclectic teamcomp, which is part of the reason they lost. Also Rumble is a bad pick unless you shit on someone early. You mean Lee Sin's ulti, that kicks back any diving bruiser, like 20 ft away, and Rumbles AoE super slow? along with his constant application of E's, are bad for peeling? Rumble not a bad pick, Wick'ds rumble is a bad pick.
I don't like Rumble if you aren't going to exploit his midgame ~ Sorcs + 1 more Mpen item. I think EU probably though they could do that with Lee Sin + Rumble ideally being really strong at the 1-2 big ticket item mark. That didn't pan out of course, but Lee didn't really switch to a more peely build, and IDK if Rumble built a Rylias to keep slows up even when ult was down.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:40 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 05:22 wei2coolman wrote:On December 04 2012 05:18 cLutZ wrote:On December 04 2012 04:03 wei2coolman wrote:
We're not saying, that giving AP carries #1 farm position is bad. What we're saying is if you're going to make a 4 protect 1 hypercarry comp, you have to give the ADC #1 farm position.
I'm not a fan of Froggen's mid Lee anyways, especially considering Wickd's complete lack of decent top AP champion pool. It's great as an assassin, and he can do fancy plays, but his impact in game with that kind of farm could be much stronger with the typical AP champ, and it would prevent Wick'd from having to play his shit-tier rumble. Just because a team picks Kog Maw doesn't mean they have a 4-1 comp. Lee Sin and Rumble are mediocre at peeling for and sustaining a Kog Maw. EU was running an eclectic teamcomp, which is part of the reason they lost. Also Rumble is a bad pick unless you shit on someone early. You mean Lee Sin's ulti, that kicks back any diving bruiser, like 20 ft away, and Rumbles AoE super slow? along with his constant application of E's, are bad for peeling? Rumble not a bad pick, Wick'ds rumble is a bad pick. I don't like Rumble if you aren't going to exploit his midgame ~ Sorcs + 1 more Mpen item. I think EU probably though they could do that with Lee Sin + Rumble ideally being really strong at the 1-2 big ticket item mark. That didn't pan out of course, but Lee didn't really switch to a more peely build, and IDK if Rumble built a Rylias to keep slows up even when ult was down.
The other relevant issue is how Wickd adapted poorly to 1v2s in both games compared to Caomei.
He was doing immensely better than Caomei in the 1v2 game 2, particularly as Weixiao fed him an FB for free, but Caomei unquestionably had a larger impact on the game.
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On December 04 2012 04:16 DragoonTT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:28 KissBlade wrote:
I am surprised Nrated isnt' getting a lot of credit for bot. His setups were amazing and he was the main enabler there. Food for thought: Considering the TL analysis of team composition for the S2 World Finals, would it be correct to name nRated the "star player" on fnatic that tries to dictate the tempo of the game? We've seen all three of fnatic's laners carry the team at IPL 5, but unless they got a huge advantage due to an opponent misplaying in the laning phase, it usually was nRated on offensive support champions (Zyra, Blitzcrank, Leona) making the plays: he set up dives and team fights to get those little advantages that decide games in the long run. As far as I know, nRated also usually calls the shots for fnatic. I wouldn't be surprised to see him named as one of the most influential and important players of the tournament.
I hate to do this sort of a thing where clearly every person on the team is playing at a high level right now. Like I was thinking about how I wanted to argue I'd go with Soaz, but then I felt bad for not giving xPeke more credit, I just think any argument about who played the best on Fnatic is dicy at best.
If anything I'd say nRated like chauster did for Dlift makes the skill level of his AD look a lot higher than it is.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 04 2012 05:34 LaNague wrote:
i dont understand.
they have deman, jatt, joemiller triple combo available and instead use something like phreak/optimus on the mainstream for a lot of games. Often even two action casters without a strategy commentator.
I felt like the IPL staff got a lot main stage preference, when someone like Phreak was casting on the off stream. Still the tri-cast was really cool, got them for the epic WE CLG.EU game as well as the finals.
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On December 04 2012 05:46 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 04:16 DragoonTT wrote:On December 04 2012 03:28 KissBlade wrote:
I am surprised Nrated isnt' getting a lot of credit for bot. His setups were amazing and he was the main enabler there. Food for thought: Considering the TL analysis of team composition for the S2 World Finals, would it be correct to name nRated the "star player" on fnatic that tries to dictate the tempo of the game? We've seen all three of fnatic's laners carry the team at IPL 5, but unless they got a huge advantage due to an opponent misplaying in the laning phase, it usually was nRated on offensive support champions (Zyra, Blitzcrank, Leona) making the plays: he set up dives and team fights to get those little advantages that decide games in the long run. As far as I know, nRated also usually calls the shots for fnatic. I wouldn't be surprised to see him named as one of the most influential and important players of the tournament. I hate to do this sort of a thing where clearly every person on the team is playing at a high level right now. Like I was thinking about how I wanted to argue I'd go with Soaz, but then I felt bad for not giving xPeke more credit, I just think any argument about who played the best on Fnatic is dicy at best. If anything I'd say nRated like chauster did for Dlift makes the skill level of his AD look a lot higher than it is.
I'm not saying nRated played better than anyone else on fnatic - it's very hard to directly compare players in high-level LoL (different roles, different teams) and I don't want to try. I wanted to say that to me, it seems like nRated made their lineup, their playstyle "work" the way it did.
The comparison to DLift/Chauster doesn't hold, because CLG.NA was(is) completely built around supporting DLift so he can carry the game, which is obviously not the case with fnatic.
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EPT
