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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include: - "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Champion balance and game design discussion
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Oh god Yi is coming..
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
I usually try to get max cdr on jax. Titanic doesn't make that much sense aside from giving hp.
On top jax i've been going trinity steraks fotm locket for max cdr with the blues, not sure if its the best way to do it, but low cd on q and e is a big deal against adcs and any kitey team, botrk is better if they don't kite obviously.
jungle i used to do similar but with devourer instead of trinity and get trinity or botrk later
would probably do the same.
On September 03 2015 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc).
based on what reasoning? For xin for example he doesn't benefit from the slow at all since he has his own, so you need to justify the speed while omen is much better against ADCs which is normally the reason you'll buy armour on those two since you get so much for free anyway.
Not saying DMP is bad but I dont' like these blanket statements with no good justification, this one is certainty wrong.
I basically play jax purely for team fighting which is why I don't do the trinity botrk devourer lolollol 1v1 stuff.
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It's worth noting we haven't seen the effects of the viktor nerf in competitive yet, and the nerfs are pretty huge. Basically in an attempt to kill viktors damage, they instead forced him to go full damage and killed his mobility.
You still need the e upgrade from hex, but the old strat of a fast level 2-3 hex core is now not worth it until at least level 14-15, as you lose wayyy too much ap and just can't affect the early midgame teamfights. The more successful viktors i've seen have just been going hex-e into ludens into rabas into double hex upgrade, then voids lich etc.
Once you have e enchant and another item you oneshot every wave anyway, so it's not like you should ever have mana issues unless you're just missing spells everywhere, so i really don't see the point of morellos,and your power spikes now come at around level 15-16, when you have dc, ludens and level 3 hex core, where you start having obscene amounts of ap and just oneshot everyone.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
What if you just never build Blade of the Ruined King on Jax? What if you rely on a Doran's Blade and possibly Red Elixir or runes for lifesteal, and focus your build more on "tanky burst"?
Specifically I'm thinking of Trinity Force into Titanic Hydra into Dead Man's Plate. Jax, perhaps more so than any other champion, really benefits from an AA reset, and with Titanic Hydra and his W he guarantees an ult proc and three stacks of his passive unconditionally. Dead Man's Plate is super good on him: tankiness, movespeed, burst damage, and a slow to catch them in your E. For the same reasons you don't build attack speed on Vi, perhaps these new items are enough to replace Blade of the Ruined King on Jax. It feels pretty heretical, skipping BotRK on Jax, but I found some good success last night with it.
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On September 03 2015 21:08 Slayer91 wrote:Oh god Yi is coming.. Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh. I usually try to get max cdr on jax. Titanic doesn't make that much sense aside from giving hp. On top jax i've been going trinity steraks fotm locket for max cdr with the blues, not sure if its the best way to do it, but low cd on q and e is a big deal against adcs and any kitey team, botrk is better if they don't kite obviously. jungle i used to do similar but with devourer instead of trinity and get trinity or botrk later would probably do the same. Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc). based on what reasoning? For xin for example he doesn't benefit from the slow at all since he has his own, so you need to justify the speed while omen is much better against ADCs which is normally the reason you'll buy armour on those two since you get so much for free anyway. Not saying DMP is bad but I dont' like these blanket statements with no good justification, this one is certainty wrong. I basically play jax purely for team fighting which is why I don't do the trinity botrk devourer lolollol 1v1 stuff.
it's not super valuable on Xin, but it seems like there is a noticeable difference in the strength between the decaying 75% DMP slow and the 45% from Xin's E, the DMP proc feels almost like a mini-snare at times. if you don't chain your slows perfectly i would almost think that the Randuin's weak aoe slow is the one that loses more of its usefulness due to overlap with Xin's E.
more importantly i'm not sure why you'd discount the move speed on a champ with a point and click gap closer, moving faster than your opponent when you're trying to get in E range seems like it has a decent amount of value to me and there's certainly benefit in moving around the map faster when you're jungling. i think it's even somewhat common for players to pick up mobi boots on Xin.
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Vi is a lot worse at sticking to people because of how her Q works (not targetable, longer cd (and even longer if you factor in the "charge" time) for around the same range), and her passive doesn't make her as tanky as Jax's E and R, so they don't really build the same way. I dunno who's got the better base stats, since Jax's got shafted pretty hard... I checked, holy fucked they wrecked him so hard, he's actually worse than her about everywhere.
Skipping BotRK is not new, and everyone worth his salt knows that if you try to build it after Triforce and dive head first into fights is about when high-burst mages like LB will wreck you with their own powerspike. Also focus fire.
What BotRK makes Jax good at is pushing (well, better, not good), dueling and tower killing, which are all required for splitpushing. So you build BotRK second while you splitpush or try to fight skirmishes, go find 2v2s or 3v3s in the enemy jungle or something, abusing your strong 1v1.
If you want to group up, siege and teamfight after your first item then you need to be tankier unless you have a dedicated frontline. But in that case there are better picks than Jax so why do that if you're using him?
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On September 04 2015 00:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
What if you just never build Blade of the Ruined King on Jax? What if you rely on a Doran's Blade and possibly Red Elixir or runes for lifesteal, and focus your build more on "tanky burst"?
nobody really builds botrk on jax for the lifesteal, they do it for sticking power and the huge onhit damage, jax does'nt need lifesteal more than any bruiser and almost none of them really want lifesteal
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If you want lifestyle and sticking power gunblade nashors would be better. stinger let's you dunk on fools who all in you.
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So I guess bruisers not wanting lifesteal is the reason they all get hydra? I dunno maybe I'm confusing the term with psuedo-assassins (Riven/J4/Trynda/Fiora?) but not buying lifesteal on those guys is a surefire way to lose every skirmish ever.
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On September 04 2015 03:11 Osmoses wrote:
So I guess bruisers not wanting lifesteal is the reason they all get hydra?
That goes down to what we define as a "bruiser", which I think is an offshoot of a banned topic.
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Yeah I edited that shit so fast lol.
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All 4 of those guys are either melee carries or AD assassins. You could get into a semantic argument, but just comparing builds, all of them build a fuckton of AD and minimal defense and kill you very quickly. Bruiser is a shitty term, but the most obvious example of guys who used to build lifesteal and now don't is Renekton, who started skipping both of the lifesteal items people would usually build immediately after Titanic got introduced. They would usually get it just because better itemization didn't exist.
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It is really simple actually. If you are getting multiple damage items lifesteal is good otherwise it isn't. Every champ you mentioned gets >2 damage items. Jax is one of the very few exceptions just because of how much base damage he has.
Say renekton didn't get hydra but went tiamat>tank or grabbed bork with more damage to just delete people.
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On September 04 2015 03:15 Osmoses wrote:
Yeah I edited that shit so fast lol.
hydra is the best pure ad item for most bruisers because of the cost efficiency and the active and the passive helps for people who cant farm well
they don't care about the lifesteal
lifesteal is relevant for farmed adcs and even then it's not that noticeable most of the time except in extreme cases of out sustaining poke
its not useless but its not a priority for pretty much any bruiser
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Yeah, pretty much that^. Bruisers get hydra if they need more waveclear and a high damage item. The lifesteal is nice, but it's not the main reason why you buy it.
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I think the champ where it's the most noticeable is Riven, in a given fight that little shit can go from 1% to 100% while stunlocking you. So, it's relevant in skirmishes/duels, not so much perhaps in full out teamfights.
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riven hardly counts as a regular bruiser she goes full damage
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Lifesteal is very important for splitpushes. If you are the aggressor you are inevitably going to have to take 50/50 trades to push the advantage and actually get turret damage. A perfect example was Duke vs. Trace in Najin vs. Jin Air, where Duke had a 100 CS lead as Fiora but the trades were ~ 50/50 because to actually get a trade he had to get in turret range. Then he would kill a wave and heal up the turret shots.
Granted, that series was terrible, but still shows the premise. Some like Mundo and Renekton (maybe Garen? IDK) have enough innate that its not as important.
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I'd call Riven the penultimate bruiser as the lifesteal and back to back cc makes her capable of staying in/going in and out of a fight for a prolonged period of time while still dealing decent damage.
So what is a tank anyway, screw the tribunal and these bans and shit (right guys?), I'm in elo hell and can't carry despite going the overpowered Rylais on adc build because Yorick is op as shit.
No but srsly, in my opinion lifesteal is definitely worth getting for it's own sake for any non-assassin without resets, if nothing else then because it lets you heal without going back to base.
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People really underestimate the effect of lifesteal (early or late) in keeping you healthy and active in the map. The lifesteal on Botrk means that Jax can go farm the jungle without taking damage. It means he can sustain in lane better than any tank item so long as he has time on the wave. It means that he can trade aggressively to shove another person out and then continue to push instead of backing.
Many bruisers have some innate sustain like garen or renekton or nasus and so they don't need lifesteal to stay in lane after a trade. But for the champions that don't they need some form of it if they aren't going to be chugging pots all day long. A wave has about 2335+50 HP/ minute. So if you only do half the waves HP in lifesteal possible damage and you have 10% lifesteal you get about a potion per wave. Both of those should be low for someone who can hard push like Jax. And well it adds up
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EPT
