EPT[Patch 5.17] League of Draven Patch Discussion - Page 2
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chalice
United States1945 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On September 02 2015 21:59 nafta wrote: I don't understand why sterak's has such a high combine cost when they have been trying to remove that for a while now. How would you change it? Sterak's gage gives health, base ad and a shield. There is already a giant belt in the recipe and you can't put too much ad without making awkward since many spells actually lose damage when you finish the item. No basic item gives a shield. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On September 02 2015 23:46 chalice wrote: yeah you can't just compare sorcs and lucidity boots in a vacuum, you have to factor in the extra AP and other stuff that you get from buying an ROA/Luden's/whatever instead of an ap+cdr item. Let's say you get Lucidity instead of Sorcs, and then get Liandry instead of Morellos. You lose 5% CDR and 100% Mana Regen, and gain 300 HP and the Liandry burn passive. Either the 5% CDR or the 100% Mana Regen in isolation will functionally outdamage the Liandry burn. Let's say that instead you get RoA. You lose 5% CDR, 100% Mana Regen and 15 mpen and gain 20 AP and a bunch of flat mana and HP I forget how much they buffed it. You will be doing so much less damage by not having that 15 mpen that even if you calculated the maximum amount of damage you can do before going OOM to give crazy preferential treatment to the RoA flat mana, Sorcs + Morello would still win by a generous amount. There are champions where an argument can be made for Lucidity boots. Lux is not one of them. If you really want to go over this sort of thing, you can suggest a build in the Lux thread and I will pick it apart there. I will not be continuing this topic of conversation in this thread after this post. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Most champs with low enough CDs for the CDR to be important for damage are also big Liandry's users. Or they're Karthus. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lulu does it because only two of her six spells scale with mpen. Lux should not ever do it ever. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
A lot of those don't trade it for morelo or w/e but it is still standart to get them. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 03 2015 02:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force? You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster. That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power. Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price. At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage. I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game) I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go. Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge edit2: You get lucidity boots because you don't care about dealing damage and only care about your utility scaling. Like Lulu (Shield + Ult) or Morgana (Black Shield). Or maybe support Lux. But everyone else should be running Pen or Defense. (Ninja Tabi are particularly potent) and buying CDR from items. Morello's, Athenes, Zekes, Banner, Twin Shadows, and WotA are all really good items that you can use to get CDR and AP and you should be buying them instead of Lucidty Boots if you want CDR. The margin on the combination cannot ever really make up for the power of the pen or defense on the other boots. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On September 03 2015 05:00 Goumindong wrote: RoA is actually amazing on a lot of champions. It scales to 100 AP and 500 Health for 2700 gold. That is the raw power of a Rylai's plus 800 mana plus the catalyst sustain for 300 gold cheaper. Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game) I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go. Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge Damn. That goes to show how important CDR is and passive mana regen without leveling. Also you have to remember it takes 10 minutes to stack. So you don't immediately get the power you would have if you just went with a different item. How gold efficient is it unstacked? | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 03 2015 05:16 Sonnington wrote: Damn. That goes to show how important CDR is and passive mana regen without leveling. Also you have to remember it takes 10 minutes to stack. So you don't immediately get the power you would have if you just went with a different item. How gold efficient is it unstacked? Low; about 78% % for manaless champions. But i don't think that people aren't picking it up because of its efficiency. For a mana champion, not including the passive, its 108% efficient when you buy it (so assuming that you get "full value" from the mana). And the mana sustain is legitimately huge. Not including the catalyst sustain the 40 mana/minute is about 3.3 mp/5. Which is about 25% of the standard mages MP/5 at level 11. It also provides 150 HP and 200 MP when you level up (and does so when you get catalyst) which are not insignificant. (I recall doing math on this ages ago which suggested that the catalyst sustain from this only in terms of mana was higher than the MP/5 from tear, and tear got nerfed early with the changes to MP/5 that stopped it from being flat). If this procs twice during any particular laning portion that is another 300 HP and 400 MP. Which is 4 mana potions and 2 HP potions (so another 210 gold value there) with the potential to be much higher. Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod. Catalyst is a great early laning and sustain tool and Rod is a huge amount of power. Which is why i am surprised its not picked up in professional play more, because many of the mid laners are both playing for lategame and also amazing at farming (getting the item earlier expands its power in multiple ways) Edit: Think of it like this. Every time you level up Rod/Catalyst provides 200 mana. At level 11, 100% MP/5 will regen 200 mana in 76 seconds. The base mana on Rod is worth 153 seconds of +100% MP/5. So every time you go back, if you level up while missing any amount of mana then Rod is beating out Morello's in terms of mana sustain by 153+76 seconds/level or 2.5+1.25 minutes/level. This doesn't include the bonus mana from stacks in any way. Mana Font on Athenes is pretty weak in terms of power unless you have a lot of mana. If you've got 800 mana and are missing 600 of that (I.E. one or two spells from OOM) then Athenes passive gives you 12 MP/5. Which about halves the advantage from Rod... but only if you're nearly OOM. [The 30% bonus mana on kill/assist is super huge though]. And Athenes has 60 AP on it, and no HP on it. The trade off here is 20% CDR for 300+200 HP and 0+40 AP. I am not sure that 20% CDR is worth 300 HP let alone 500 and 40 AP later in the game. edit: Basically RoA is as efficient as Athenes is when you buy it, if you discount the mana and the mana regen on both and value CDR/HP at their respective base values(which you may not) | ||
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Gahlo
United States35142 Posts
On September 03 2015 05:29 Goumindong wrote: Low; about 78% % for manaless champions. But i don't think that people aren't picking it up because of its efficiency. For a mana champion, not including the passive, its 108% efficient when you buy it (so assuming that you get "full value" from the mana). And the mana sustain is legitimately huge. Not including the catalyst sustain the 40 mana/minute is about 3.3 mp/5. Which is about 25% of the standard mages MP/5 at level 11. It also provides 150 HP and 200 MP when you level up (and does so when you get catalyst) which are not insignificant. (I recall doing math on this ages ago which suggested that the catalyst sustain from this only in terms of mana was higher than the MP/5 from tear, and tear got nerfed early with the changes to MP/5 that stopped it from being flat). If this procs twice during any particular laning portion that is another 300 HP and 400 MP. Which is 4 mana potions and 2 HP potions (so another 210 gold value there) with the potential to be much higher. Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod. Catalyst is a great early laning and sustain tool and Rod is a huge amount of power. Which is why i am surprised its not picked up in professional play more, because many of the mid laners are both playing for lategame and also amazing at farming (getting the item earlier expands its power in multiple ways) That's because most professional midlane picks are buying CDR or Hexcore upgrades. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 03 2015 05:37 Gahlo wrote: That's because most professional midlane picks are buying CDR or Hexcore upgrades. Yes, but largely they should not be is the argument. (hexcore the exception, But you don't upgrade hexcore for the mana sustain and i am expecting a lot less viktor in the next patch given that he wasn't particularly strong to begin with and they nerfed the crap out of him) | ||
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Gahlo
United States35142 Posts
On September 03 2015 05:42 Goumindong wrote: Yes, but largely they should not be is the argument. (hexcore the exception, But you don't upgrade hexcore for the mana sustain and i am expecting a lot less viktor in the next patch given that he wasn't particularly strong to begin with and they nerfed the crap out of him) "Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod." Make up your mind. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
Or maybe I just hate Nashor's Azir. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 03 2015 03:15 Goumindong wrote: You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster. That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power. Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price. At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage. I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now. So maybe it's not as good on Jax because you absolutely need TF (and yeah probably BotRK) first. I wonder what bruisers can go for Titanic/Sterak's first without having to build Triforce/BotRK/etc. Maybe a Volibear? Olaf? | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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