|
Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include: - "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Champion balance and game design discussion
|
On September 03 2015 03:15 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 02:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:
A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force? You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster. That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power. Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price. At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage. I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now.
That is incredibly squishy for Jax. Its basically 3 offensive and 2 hybrid items. Im sure hes crazy in 1v1 and 2v2 but you can't really do much in the backlines with that build, because, you are dead.
It almost reminds me of when people used to say after the initial Olaf rework you should use him as a frontline tank killer, which is kinda what you have to do with that build.
|
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
what's the reason for building sterak's before titanic? since both the shield and ad scale with levels/hp i would think sterak's would be something you'd want to build later rather than sooner.
|
What do you think of Sterak's on Volibear? I found Dead Man's Plate quite good on him, dunno about the other new stuff.
|
United States37500 Posts
On September 03 2015 06:51 chalice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote:
I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh. what's the reason for building sterak's before titanic? since both the shield and ad scale with levels/hp i would think sterak's would be something you'd want to build later rather than sooner.
Sterak's obv scales better in late game with its % bonuses but compared to Titantic, it's still the better defensive option. Even though there's a Giant's Belt on both side of the equation, Sterak's is 100 more HP and the passive is better in duels (when I invade) and in team fights.
Tiamat does help with clear speed but I'm rushing Devourer, which already makes doing camps a breeze but also sets me up very weak defensively after that first item. Needing to stay alive so I can make use of all the AS I have, I think Sterak's is a better second item build over Titanic Hydra.
On September 03 2015 06:53 Requizen wrote:
What do you think of Sterak's on Volibear? I found Dead Man's Plate quite good on him, dunno about the other new stuff.
Haven't played Voli in a while and prob won't for another few weeks (rather grind Cinderhulk Sej to level V, etc), I think Sterak's is fine for Voli as a 5th or 6th item. He can obviously make use of the % bonuses. More HP is never a bad thing for Voli, esp when it comes with a solid item passive.
|
have you tried deadman's plate after devourer? i get that second if i'm not fed enough to rush titanic on Xin and the defensive stats obvious crush Sterak's. wouldn't it be a guaranteed 100 stack slow with his ult?
|
United States37500 Posts
Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc).
|
Insane how Darius got a buff, he was already really strong after the hotfix.
|
For those who are interested, CDR boots vs. Mpen boots math from the Lux thread:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 03 2015 04:30 Sonnington wrote:
You said I could take you up on the question of Lucidity boots vs Sorcs on Lux. Out of curiosity, how much more damage would Sorcs do over Lucidity boots? For the sake of argument, lets say they're running the same rune pages without cdr and same masteries with the flat 5%cdr. With roughly the same 3 item build, Morellos, Deathcap, Void Staff, and respective boots. For the sake of argument, lets say the enemy has 30mr and 100mr. If it makes big enough of a difference we can switch Void for Luden's. Sure we can do that. Here's some numbers. Vs. 30 MR (lowest possible): + Show Spoiler +
Teamfight Time Before OOM
Pen Boots: 50 seconds
CDR Boots: 37 seconds
Sustainable Harass Damage
Pen Boots: 43 DPS
CDR Boots: 38 DPS
Burst Damage
Pen Boots: 2309
CDR Boots: 2048
Sustained Damage
Pen Boots: 321
CDR Boots: 345
Vs. 42 MR (MR runes / Locket aura): + Show Spoiler +
Teamfight Time Before OOM
Pen Boots: 50 seconds
CDR Boots: 37 seconds
Sustainable Harass Damage
Pen Boots: 41 DPS
CDR Boots: 36 DPS
Burst Damage
Pen Boots: 2197
CDR Boots: 1923
Sustained Damage
Pen Boots: 308
CDR Boots: 327
Vs. 55 MR (An MR item / Runes + Locket aura): + Show Spoiler +
Teamfight Time Before OOM
Pen Boots: 50 seconds
CDR Boots: 37 seconds
Sustainable Harass Damage
Pen Boots: 38 DPS
CDR Boots: 33 DPS
Burst Damage
Pen Boots: 2043
CDR Boots: 1803
Sustained Damage
Pen Boots: 290
CDR Boots: 310
Vs, 100 MR (Tanky target): + Show Spoiler +
Teamfight Time Before OOM
Pen Boots: 50 seconds
CDR Boots: 37 seconds
Sustainable Harass Damage
Pen Boots: 31 DPS
CDR Boots: 28 DPS
Burst Damage
Pen Boots: 1643
CDR Boots: 1484
Sustained Damage
Pen Boots: 244
CDR Boots: 265
So, here's our results. Pen boots can stay in a teamfight 35% longer. For Harass damage:At 30 MR - Mpen +13% At 42 MR - Mpen +14% At 55 MR - Mpen +14% At 100 MR - Mpen +11% For Burst damage:At 30 MR - Mpen +13% At 42 MR - Mpen +14% At 55 MR - Mpen +13% At 100 MR - Mpen +11% For Sustained damage:At 30 MR - CDR +7% At 42 MR - CDR +6% At 55 MR - CDR +7% At 100 MR - CDR +8% So as we can see, Pen boots are 11-14% better at burst and harass damage, and can stay in a teamfight 35% longer, while CDR boots are 6-8% better at sustained damage. In general we tend to prioritize Burst damage 1st, Harass damage 2nd and Sustained damage 3rd I'd say. This can potentially change based on the game, but it's a good generalization. Now, if you want to dig a little deeper into that sustained damage figure, lets look at the 30 MR figure. Assuming no harass damage at all, Mpen does 261 more burst damage, while CDR does 19 more sustained damage. This means that CDR doesn't start doing more damage until 14 seconds into the fight. Since after 37 seconds the CDR runs out of mana, you can functionally say that even for sustained damage, CDR is only better at fights that last between 14 and 37 seconds, while Mpen is better at fights 1-14 seconds and 37+ seconds. For every 4 seconds of E harass prior to the teamfight, that gap closes by another second in favor of Mpen. So if there's 12 seconds of harass prior to the teamfight, CDR only performs better at 17-37 seconds. As you can see, Pen boots are much better in all categories but sustained damage, where they are arguably about the same. This math doesn't touch at all on one of the primary reasons why CDR boots are bad though, which is that you can get CDR runes but you can't really get Mpen runes. If you wanted to do a more accurate comparison of how good Mpen boots are, you'd do Mpen boots + CDR/level runes vs. CDR boots + AP/level runes. In that comparison the Mpen boots would also be performing better at sustained damage, because the CDR would be the same for both builds, but 15 Mpen outdamages 27 AP. Or if you wanted defensive runes, MR boots + CDR runes would give you 15% CDR, 25 MR and Tenacity, while CDR boots + MR runes would only give you 15% CDR and 12 MR. Basically, in order for CDR boots to be good, you either A - have to have a kit that places very low value on Mpen (Lulu), or B - you have to have some reason why it's difficult to get CDR elsewhere in your item build (Viktor). Potentially both of these things need to be true, actually.
|
it was a misunderstanding, you said CDR boots were terrible in GD and people that don't give a fuck about Lux said they have a place in the game. no one was trying to argue about the damage for a specific champion.
|
Well, I said they were terrible in response to somebody asking about them on Lux specifically, but yes.
In general, CDR boots are inferior to Pen boots on most APs. Those numbers are for Lux and Lux is an extreme example for a few different reasons, but they are indicative of what the general trend would be for most AP champions.
There are AP mid champions that can make a case for CDR boots, but really not very many. Lulu and Viktor are the two good examples that come to mind.
|
fizz is the other obvious champ since lowering his cooldowns benefits his mobility, damage, and defense all at the same time.
|
I think I'd question it on Fizz.
I mean it's true that he gets a lot of mobility and defense out of CDR.
But he also gets a lot of damage from pen.
Saying that he gets a lot from CDR is a good argument for CDR, but its not necessarily a good argument for CDR boots. You need to also make the argument either that A - he doesn't really want pen much (the Lulu argument) or that B - its difficult to efficiently get CDR on him from other sources (the Viktor argument).
Argument A definitely isn't the case for Fizz. I suppose argument B could be the case.
I guess for AD Fizz argument A might be somewhat valid? Isn't most of AD Fizz's damage still magic?
|
Why would it be hard to get CDR on Viktor? Why not just buy Morello? Its not like Viktor is hurting for AP with Hexcore. He just won't necessarily get Morello first. Hex, Morello, Void? Hex, Void, Morello?
|
with triforce and tank items Fizz will do about an even 50/50 split of damage types.
i dunno, maybe it's just me, but Morellonomicon seems like it provides neither the raw power, nor the mana that i want on AP Fizz and Athene's 60ap doesn't cut it at all. and when i have seen Morellonomicon built in pro play it was often followed by CDR boots for a super quick 40%.
|
You've got to question whether or not Morello + CDR boots is as efficient as Morello + CDR runes. I don't pretend to be a Fizz expert, but I think there is room for a debate there.
As for Viktor, I think pretty much all of the pro Viktor builds use CDR boots now and don't get Morello at all? Isn't that right?
Late game Viktor does obscene damage regardless, and going for CDR boots lets you take big AP items like zhonya and rylai that provide some defense. I think that's the logic.
|
On September 03 2015 15:25 Goumindong wrote:
Why would it be hard to get CDR on Viktor? Why not just buy Morello? Its not like Viktor is hurting for AP with Hexcore. He just won't necessarily get Morello first. Hex, Morello, Void? Hex, Void, Morello?
If the hex changes make his early-mid mana problems bad I could see that being smart, but Viktor does have his slot management issues. Is sorcs+Morello+1NLR better than lucidity+2NLR (assuming everyone gets Void and cap, which they should).
|
On September 03 2015 15:25 chalice wrote:
with triforce and tank items Fizz will do about an even 50/50 split of damage types.
i dunno, maybe it's just me, but Morellonomicon seems like it provides neither the raw power, nor the mana that i want on AP Fizz and Athene's 60ap doesn't cut it at all. and when i have seen Morellonomicon built in pro play it was often followed by CDR boots for a super quick 40%.
Get that yung Nashor's tooth. High AP, CDR, and splitpush away.
|
On September 03 2015 15:58 Ketara wrote:
You've got to question whether or not Morello + CDR boots is as efficient as Morello + CDR runes. I don't pretend to be a Fizz expert, but I think there is room for a debate there.
As for Viktor, I think pretty much all of the pro Viktor builds use CDR boots now and don't get Morello at all? Isn't that right?
Late game Viktor does obscene damage regardless, and going for CDR boots lets you take big AP items like zhonya and rylai that provide some defense. I think that's the logic.
Yea but well Viktor doesn't have comparatively high AP scaling (a lot of this due to the base damage on his auto attack as well as the magic damage transfer). He is a two spell mage like Lux and because of this should favor Pen over AP. Plus he gets a lot of AP naturally in his core and so that should be less of a consideration.
His E is 357 AP to double. His ult is 502 AP to double[636 on just the burst portion]. His Q is 614 AP to double (all values level 18).
Aside from his laser these are almost worse than lux, who has a notoriously high base damages (385, 400, 666 q,e,r respectively, 777 on her passive which brings these up a bit more assuming you get it off)
ed: I actually think athenes is better on Vik than morello. The MR is nice, the AP he doesn't really need. The passive of Athenes really scales well with Vik's free mana from his hexcore. Making him really not need blue (if you have mana problems that is)
|
|
|
I think you're missing the point Gou.
When you're looking at the Viktor builds, you're not actually prioritizing damage. You're prioritizing secondary stats like Rylai slow and HP or Zhonya active or whatever.
If you wanted to find the best possible damage build, it'd probably have Sorcs. But Viktors late game damage is so incredibly obscene that there's a point where you're like okay, I have enough damage I need secondary statistics.
And those are actually a little bit difficult to get on Viktor if you're getting Morello, and on him the mana Regen is only debatably useful.
Lux at 40% CDR uses 45.5 mana per second with a base pool of 1184 and 3.92 regen, so with just a Morello for mana regen she runs out of mana in 31.4 seconds.
Viktor at 40% CDR uses 57 mana per second with a base pool of 1174 and 3.92 regen, so with just his Hex Core he runs out of mana in 30.6 seconds.
These are comparable. Lux's mana issues are probably worse because she probably spends more during a siege before a teamfight starts, and Viktor is probably not casting Q on CD for the entire teamfight, which is where most of his mana issues come from.
The argument that Viktor needs to have Morello/Athenes for mana on top of his Hex Core is IMO questionable. Because he has fewer item slots to work with, there's pressure on him to not get it in favor of something else that he maybe likes more.
And if he's not getting Morello/Athenes, it becomes difficult for him to get CDR elsewhere. Viktor likes CDR, he likes having 100% uptime on his Q movespeed and he likes having more Gravity Fields, and he likes sustained damage basically just as much as he likes burst. He likes his burst damage too, but he has so much damage in general that it's reasonable for him to sacrifice a little bit of damage for more defense and utility. So in a world where he's not getting Morello/Athenes, CDR boots are suddenly an acceptable choice.
In the different regional finals games, there's 7 Viktor picks. 5 CDR shoes no Morello/Athenes, 1 CDR shoes + Athenes, 1 Sorc shoes no Morello/Athenes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
