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i don't understand how they can claim this nerf doesn't hurt AP Fizz, pretty much all he has going for him in the early game is his level 6 all-in and for that losing the physical damage amplification hurts AP Fizz almost as much as it does bruiser Fizz. and the W change removes the viability of an entire skill order that was probably optimal against any opposing midlaner with enough mobility to dodge his E.
runeglaive jungle Fizz is probably hurt the least from the ult change, but he might be the most reliant on maxing W of all the Fizz versions so he gets punched in the gut as well.
I wonder if this is the patch people will finally remember Jax exists after being buffed over and over.
I think he's in a similar situation as Karthus. Builds on him are so fucking outdated. Why're people insistent on BotRK even still? How is Sterak's never being built? It's so optimistic to think you can build two full damage items and not die horribly as a melee, especially in a meta dominated by non-AA damage. Free resists, not actually that great if you have 1.8k health before you finish your third item, and, if you need it, you'll get BotRK before full build anyway.
On September 02 2015 10:24 BrownBear wrote: So the way Azir works now is, only the first soldier hit procs damage, all others hit for 0?
If so, maybe it's a good thing Fenix didn't make it to worlds.
On September 02 2015 10:25 Caiada wrote: I wonder if this is the patch people will finally remember Jax exists after being buffed over and over.
I think he's in a similar situation as Karthus. Builds on him are so fucking outdated. Why're people insistent on BotRK even still? How is Sterak's never being built? It's so optimistic to think you can build two full damage items and not die horribly as a melee, especially in a meta dominated by non-AA damage. Free resists, not actually that great if you have 1.8k health before you finish your third item, and, if you need it, you'll get BotRK before full build anyway.
On September 02 2015 10:24 BrownBear wrote: So the way Azir works now is, only the first soldier hit procs damage, all others hit for 0?
If so, maybe it's a good thing Fenix didn't make it to worlds.
Only on Q, is how I read it. Not AAs.
Has steraks seen pro play yet? I've been playing tons of jax, as usual, and its pretty good.
Edit: One problem with it is Steraks has slot efficiency that doesn't really line up with what a Jax-type character really wants. Still, my buildpaths have consistently been more defensive early than pros. I used to go TF>GA then TF>Warmogs, recently TF>FrozenHeart.
On September 02 2015 10:25 Caiada wrote: I wonder if this is the patch people will finally remember Jax exists after being buffed over and over.
I think he's in a similar situation as Karthus. Builds on him are so fucking outdated. Why're people insistent on BotRK even still? How is Sterak's never being built? It's so optimistic to think you can build two full damage items and not die horribly as a melee, especially in a meta dominated by non-AA damage. Free resists, not actually that great if you have 1.8k health before you finish your third item, and, if you need it, you'll get BotRK before full build anyway.
On September 02 2015 10:24 BrownBear wrote: So the way Azir works now is, only the first soldier hit procs damage, all others hit for 0?
If so, maybe it's a good thing Fenix didn't make it to worlds.
Only on Q, is how I read it. Not AAs.
Has steraks seen pro play yet? I've been playing tons of jax, as usual, and its pretty good.
Edit: One problem with it is Steraks has slot efficiency that doesn't really line up with what a Jax-type character really wants. Still, my buildpaths have consistently been more defensive early than pros. I used to go TF>GA then TF>Warmogs, recently TF>FrozenHeart.
i doubt it will see any use, the shield decay is so fast regular folks will randomly play around it due to cooldowns. with pro team coordination it might as well not exist.
Since Lux got buffed and AP items got changed, there's a couple new/different build orders on the Lux guide thread. One was actually Velociraptures idea and it seems pretty neat. I want to test this stuff but I can't because Thailand.
If you guys try out Lux post buff, can you try to use the updated build orders and post talking about it either in the Lux thread or here, and post a post game screen for me?
It'd be much appreciated.
Here's a cross post of the updated build orders. I'm especially looking for feedback in regards to the Ludens Echo and Support build orders:
So, given all of the math we did in the previous page of the thread, here is, as simplistic as I can make it, current Lux guide build suggestions for 5.16:
Up against an AP Assassin who can engage on you and force fights, such as Leblanc, Fizz, Kassadin, Akali, Diana, Ekko, Katarina, Lissandra? - Use the Athenes Build.
Up against a Ranged AP poke Mage with skillshots such as Orianna, Ziggs, Xerath, Viktor, Azir? - Use the Athenes build if you prefer a more aggressive early game playstyle with a stronger 1 item timing. - Use the Ludens build if you prefer a more passive early game playstyle with a stronger 2-3 item timing. (By 4 items, these two builds are functionally the same.)
Up against a champion who you cannot pressure in lane and need to prioritize waveclear such as Morgana, Galio, Twisted Fate, Cho'Gath, Master Yi? - Use the Ludens build.
Up against an AD Champion? - Use the Armguard build.
Want to play Lux support? - Use the Support build.
Want something more aggressive early game with a weaker late game? - 21/0/9 - Hybrid Pen / Armor / MR / AP - Barrier vs. Assassins, Heal vs. Ranged Mages, Ignite vs. Fiddlesticks & Swain.
Want something more passive early game with a stronger late game? - 21/9/0 - Hybrid Pen / Armor / CDR per Level / AP - Barrier vs. Assassins, Heal vs. Ranged Mages, Teleport vs. Heimerdinger
Want mid game defense against an Akali/Kassadin/Diana? - 21/9/0 - Hybrid Pen / HP per Level / MR per Level / AP - Barrier vs. Akali/Diana, Heal vs. Kassadin
Enemy team has a regen champion like Vlad/Mundo and know you need to buy a Morellonomicon later in the game? - Same as above, but take AP per Level runes instead of CDR per Level for a late game setup, since you will be capping CDR with Athenes+Morello late in the game.
- 24/0/6 (use for a stronger late game) - 21/0/9 (use for a stronger early game) - Mpen / MRegen per Level / CDR per Level / AP - Heal standard, Teleport vs. Morgana, TF, Galio, Cho'Gath, Master Yi
Because Zeke's Herald gave 250 health and 20% CDR, so 250 health and 10% CDR more than current Zeke's Harbinger... yup.
Jax isn't a teamfighter, he's a splitpusher and clean-up crew in fights basically. You have better than him if you just want somebody jumping in with burst then tanking it out, so if you're gonna go triforce into full tank there are generally better champs than him. BotRK's active is great for killing people before they reach tower/diving, but also running away if they come to get you, or in teamfights to stick to your target after the first rotation of peeling abilities. The AS he needs to push, because he has no waveclear at all and his passive takes time to build up and drops very fast.
On September 02 2015 10:25 Caiada wrote: I wonder if this is the patch people will finally remember Jax exists after being buffed over and over.
I think he's in a similar situation as Karthus. Builds on him are so fucking outdated. Why're people insistent on BotRK even still? How is Sterak's never being built? It's so optimistic to think you can build two full damage items and not die horribly as a melee, especially in a meta dominated by non-AA damage. Free resists, not actually that great if you have 1.8k health before you finish your third item, and, if you need it, you'll get BotRK before full build anyway.
On September 02 2015 10:24 BrownBear wrote: So the way Azir works now is, only the first soldier hit procs damage, all others hit for 0?
If so, maybe it's a good thing Fenix didn't make it to worlds.
Only on Q, is how I read it. Not AAs.
Has steraks seen pro play yet? I've been playing tons of jax, as usual, and its pretty good.
Edit: One problem with it is Steraks has slot efficiency that doesn't really line up with what a Jax-type character really wants. Still, my buildpaths have consistently been more defensive early than pros. I used to go TF>GA then TF>Warmogs, recently TF>FrozenHeart.
We haven't seen pro play on Juggernauts patch iirc.
Zeke's didn't give the extra CDR like that thread thought, only the health. Still hilarious.
I'm still reasonably sure Sterak's will see use. The stats are very efficient on anybody going Tforce, and playing around the shield isn't really that simple. It also means you're ignoring a champ that is potentially a big damage threat to your team, champs, who, like Jax, previously had a lot less teamfight threat.
On September 02 2015 12:30 krndandaman wrote: jeez draven is like ultimate snowball champion now as if he wasn't already
it really doesn't matter at all lol. Assuming you don't drop a single axe in the first 10 minutes and you get the average 80(being generous even) cs you will get 72 gold lol.
I don't understand why sterak's has such a high combine cost when they have been trying to remove that for a while now.
Honestly don't really see how they change him without making him broken like he was in s3. Especially right now with how hypercarries+a lot of peel is popular he just can't really compete damage wise with them. His biggest problem is just the typical popular champs shit on him pretty hard.
On September 02 2015 13:36 Ketara wrote: Hey guys, a request.
Since Lux got buffed and AP items got changed, there's a couple new/different build orders on the Lux guide thread. One was actually Velociraptures idea and it seems pretty neat. I want to test this stuff but I can't because Thailand.
If you guys try out Lux post buff, can you try to use the updated build orders and post talking about it either in the Lux thread or here, and post a post game screen for me?
It'd be much appreciated.
Here's a cross post of the updated build orders. I'm especially looking for feedback in regards to the Ludens Echo and Support build orders:
Regarding the Ludens build, why not go for CDR boots after Ludens? You're delaying both sorc boots + athene/nomicon, might be better to allin on waveclear with CDR boots and go for Dcap -> Void (or vice versa) Also frees up room for Zhonyas/Liandries to make up for loss mpen
You can look at the Lux thread if you want to see a lot of math and theorycrafting on the subject. I don't want to clutter this thread with it, but basically Lucidity Boots over Sorc Shoes are never worth.
In general Sorc boots are insanely efficient on champs with high base and especially anyone who is making strong use of Liandry's or Luden's. And the safer your champ is, the more likely you can just get the CDR from runes. I only like CDR boots on AD champs (in situations where treads aren't good, more than you'd think.)
Champs who want mpen usually want more mpen for the same reason they got it in the first place.
yeah you can't just compare sorcs and lucidity boots in a vacuum, you have to factor in the extra AP and other stuff that you get from buying an ROA/Luden's/whatever instead of an ap+cdr item.
On September 02 2015 21:59 nafta wrote: I don't understand why sterak's has such a high combine cost when they have been trying to remove that for a while now.
How would you change it? Sterak's gage gives health, base ad and a shield. There is already a giant belt in the recipe and you can't put too much ad without making awkward since many spells actually lose damage when you finish the item. No basic item gives a shield.
On September 02 2015 23:46 chalice wrote: yeah you can't just compare sorcs and lucidity boots in a vacuum, you have to factor in the extra AP and other stuff that you get from buying an ROA/Luden's/whatever instead of an ap+cdr item.
Let's say you get Lucidity instead of Sorcs, and then get Liandry instead of Morellos.
You lose 5% CDR and 100% Mana Regen, and gain 300 HP and the Liandry burn passive.
Either the 5% CDR or the 100% Mana Regen in isolation will functionally outdamage the Liandry burn.
Let's say that instead you get RoA. You lose 5% CDR, 100% Mana Regen and 15 mpen and gain 20 AP and a bunch of flat mana and HP I forget how much they buffed it.
You will be doing so much less damage by not having that 15 mpen that even if you calculated the maximum amount of damage you can do before going OOM to give crazy preferential treatment to the RoA flat mana, Sorcs + Morello would still win by a generous amount.
There are champions where an argument can be made for Lucidity boots. Lux is not one of them. If you really want to go over this sort of thing, you can suggest a build in the Lux thread and I will pick it apart there. I will not be continuing this topic of conversation in this thread after this post.
I can't think of a non-Viktor champion who is skipping Morello/Athene's and replacing it with CDR boots. And Viktor only does it because Hexcore and getting one more laser off in a fight being amazing. Lulu is doing it, actually, in maximum utility top roles, but that's a high utility champ fully committing to being third banana at best. A Lulu with the CDR set up and RoA is a lot stronger than the same with Morello/CDR boots until another item or so, even moreso compared to Athene's.
Most champs with low enough CDs for the CDR to be important for damage are also big Liandry's users. Or they're Karthus.
A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force?
On September 03 2015 02:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force?
You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster.
That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power.
Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price.
At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage.
I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now.
Or top lane Morgana also built CDR boots. I think they probably built it on her so she could throw more dark bindings and maybe better waveclear, but I doubt that. She has excellent waveclear without CDR. I could see getting CDR boots on Lux if your goal is to spam Q as much as possible in order to get a pick. Then again you can get 5%cdr from masteries, 5 from runes, 20 from your mana item, and 10 from blue buff. You could even just get 15%cdr on your rules alone. On the plus side you could supplement your CDR runes for mana regen and not worry about having blue buff for max CDR. This would afford you more spells in the early game and as Ketera will tell you Lux is a bit of a lane bully. He's probably right in general pen boots will probably do more DPS than Lucidity. I dunno, I guess I'll ask in the thread.
Top Morg built CDR boots for Black Shield. In general, they're only built on AD champs, high utility champs, and high movement ability champs. Viktor is still the only exception I can think of. Liss wants Sorcs because she has high base and Liandry's is now amazing for her, and RoA's overrated unless you're Ryze/Singed/Kass/Swain/Karth
RoA is actually amazing on a lot of champions. It scales to 100 AP and 500 Health for 2700 gold. That is the raw power of a Rylai's plus 800 mana plus the catalyst sustain for 300 gold cheaper.
Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game)
I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go.
Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge
edit2: You get lucidity boots because you don't care about dealing damage and only care about your utility scaling. Like Lulu (Shield + Ult) or Morgana (Black Shield). Or maybe support Lux.
But everyone else should be running Pen or Defense. (Ninja Tabi are particularly potent) and buying CDR from items. Morello's, Athenes, Zekes, Banner, Twin Shadows, and WotA are all really good items that you can use to get CDR and AP and you should be buying them instead of Lucidty Boots if you want CDR. The margin on the combination cannot ever really make up for the power of the pen or defense on the other boots.
On September 03 2015 05:00 Goumindong wrote: RoA is actually amazing on a lot of champions. It scales to 100 AP and 500 Health for 2700 gold. That is the raw power of a Rylai's plus 800 mana plus the catalyst sustain for 300 gold cheaper.
Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game)
I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go.
Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge
Damn. That goes to show how important CDR is and passive mana regen without leveling. Also you have to remember it takes 10 minutes to stack. So you don't immediately get the power you would have if you just went with a different item. How gold efficient is it unstacked?
On September 03 2015 05:00 Goumindong wrote: RoA is actually amazing on a lot of champions. It scales to 100 AP and 500 Health for 2700 gold. That is the raw power of a Rylai's plus 800 mana plus the catalyst sustain for 300 gold cheaper.
Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game)
I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go.
Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge
Damn. That goes to show how important CDR is and passive mana regen without leveling. Also you have to remember it takes 10 minutes to stack. So you don't immediately get the power you would have if you just went with a different item. How gold efficient is it unstacked?
Low; about 78% % for manaless champions. But i don't think that people aren't picking it up because of its efficiency. For a mana champion, not including the passive, its 108% efficient when you buy it (so assuming that you get "full value" from the mana). And the mana sustain is legitimately huge. Not including the catalyst sustain the 40 mana/minute is about 3.3 mp/5. Which is about 25% of the standard mages MP/5 at level 11.
It also provides 150 HP and 200 MP when you level up (and does so when you get catalyst) which are not insignificant. (I recall doing math on this ages ago which suggested that the catalyst sustain from this only in terms of mana was higher than the MP/5 from tear, and tear got nerfed early with the changes to MP/5 that stopped it from being flat). If this procs twice during any particular laning portion that is another 300 HP and 400 MP. Which is 4 mana potions and 2 HP potions (so another 210 gold value there) with the potential to be much higher.
Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod. Catalyst is a great early laning and sustain tool and Rod is a huge amount of power.
Which is why i am surprised its not picked up in professional play more, because many of the mid laners are both playing for lategame and also amazing at farming (getting the item earlier expands its power in multiple ways)
Edit: Think of it like this. Every time you level up Rod/Catalyst provides 200 mana. At level 11, 100% MP/5 will regen 200 mana in 76 seconds. The base mana on Rod is worth 153 seconds of +100% MP/5. So every time you go back, if you level up while missing any amount of mana then Rod is beating out Morello's in terms of mana sustain by 153+76 seconds/level or 2.5+1.25 minutes/level. This doesn't include the bonus mana from stacks in any way.
Mana Font on Athenes is pretty weak in terms of power unless you have a lot of mana. If you've got 800 mana and are missing 600 of that (I.E. one or two spells from OOM) then Athenes passive gives you 12 MP/5. Which about halves the advantage from Rod... but only if you're nearly OOM. [The 30% bonus mana on kill/assist is super huge though]. And Athenes has 60 AP on it, and no HP on it. The trade off here is 20% CDR for 300+200 HP and 0+40 AP. I am not sure that 20% CDR is worth 300 HP let alone 500 and 40 AP later in the game.
edit: Basically RoA is as efficient as Athenes is when you buy it, if you discount the mana and the mana regen on both and value CDR/HP at their respective base values(which you may not)
On September 03 2015 05:00 Goumindong wrote: RoA is actually amazing on a lot of champions. It scales to 100 AP and 500 Health for 2700 gold. That is the raw power of a Rylai's plus 800 mana plus the catalyst sustain for 300 gold cheaper.
Frankly any AP who is thinking about buying any kind of sustain item but doesn't necessarily want 20% CDR should be buying it. Its so good it makes a late Archangel pickup efficient even if you haven't stacked it (with just the base AA mana and RoA mana, Archangel will give 111.5 AP before mana/level or stacking the tear. Assuming about 1000 mana from levels that is 141.5 AP. Even if we assign the AP from mana to the item the mana comes from AA and RoA will be the two highest AP items in the game)
I am surprised more mid laners in LCS haven't moved towards it given how well they farm and how late games tend to go.
Edit: I mean, at full stacks RoA is 129% gold efficient on manaless champions not including the catalyst sustain. That is pretty huge
Damn. That goes to show how important CDR is and passive mana regen without leveling. Also you have to remember it takes 10 minutes to stack. So you don't immediately get the power you would have if you just went with a different item. How gold efficient is it unstacked?
Low; about 78% % for manaless champions. But i don't think that people aren't picking it up because of its efficiency. For a mana champion, not including the passive, its 108% efficient when you buy it (so assuming that you get "full value" from the mana). And the mana sustain is legitimately huge. Not including the catalyst sustain the 40 mana/minute is about 3.3 mp/5. Which is about 25% of the standard mages MP/5 at level 11.
It also provides 150 HP and 200 MP when you level up (and does so when you get catalyst) which are not insignificant. (I recall doing math on this ages ago which suggested that the catalyst sustain from this only in terms of mana was higher than the MP/5 from tear, and tear got nerfed early with the changes to MP/5 that stopped it from being flat). If this procs twice during any particular laning portion that is another 300 HP and 400 MP. Which is 4 mana potions and 2 HP potions (so another 210 gold value there) with the potential to be much higher.
Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod. Catalyst is a great early laning and sustain tool and Rod is a huge amount of power.
Which is why i am surprised its not picked up in professional play more, because many of the mid laners are both playing for lategame and also amazing at farming (getting the item earlier expands its power in multiple ways)
That's because most professional midlane picks are buying CDR or Hexcore upgrades.
I like RoA as an individual item, it's just what you're giving up for it, particularly if you go AA as well. Dcap/Void and one of Rylai's/Luden's/Liandry's/Zhonya's is very limited slot-wise, along with the bad early-midgame. Uti item/Morello v RoA/Archangel would be an interesting comparison in 5 item builds. I think it's probably better than I'm expecting, especially for champs with high AP scaling.
On September 03 2015 05:37 Gahlo wrote: That's because most professional midlane picks are buying CDR or Hexcore upgrades.
Yes, but largely they should not be is the argument. (hexcore the exception, But you don't upgrade hexcore for the mana sustain and i am expecting a lot less viktor in the next patch given that he wasn't particularly strong to begin with and they nerfed the crap out of him)
On September 03 2015 05:37 Gahlo wrote: That's because most professional midlane picks are buying CDR or Hexcore upgrades.
Yes, but largely they should not be is the argument. (hexcore the exception, But you don't upgrade hexcore for the mana sustain and i am expecting a lot less viktor in the next patch given that he wasn't particularly strong to begin with and they nerfed the crap out of him)
"Basically if you're buying for lategame on your first item and you're not buying CDR then you should probably be buying Rod."
On September 03 2015 02:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force?
You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster.
That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power.
Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price.
At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage.
I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now.
So maybe it's not as good on Jax because you absolutely need TF (and yeah probably BotRK) first. I wonder what bruisers can go for Titanic/Sterak's first without having to build Triforce/BotRK/etc. Maybe a Volibear? Olaf?
I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
On September 03 2015 02:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: A bunch of the new items seem really good on Jax - honestly, I'd be happy building all of them. Titanic Hydra has that awesome AA reset that also gives him waveclear, Sterak's Gage has obvious synergy with Trinity Force, and Dead Man's Plate adds to his burst and mobility. Maybe these items can be built instead of a Blade of the Ruined King after Trinity Force?
You're probably still going to want some life steal and attack speed and BotRK is really good for that. Plus the active adds a lot of dueling power. I am not sure what else you can build that has everything he wants really. BT Would be super strong once you were full build, but you still need AS in order to stack your passive faster.
That being said the mixed HP/Offensive items do seem really good since he gets so much power from bonus AD. I am just not sure where he can put them into his build. Sterak's seems half good half not. Jax has no base AD scaling except Triforce. Counterstrike, Leap Strike, and GMM all scale on bonus AD. But the extra damage on Triforce and the Shield seem like lots of power.
Doing the math on Sterak's it looks like, as you get close to level 18, that it can't be beat in terms of raw power. Especially for the price.
At level 18 it adds 59.5/199 damage to a triforce proc and 29.75/59.5 damage to every auto attack. Titanic is clearly better, adding 50 damage/auto attack, 50 damage on Leap Strike, 25 damage on counterstrike, and 25 armor when ulting plus the true auto-reset(which will easily out-damage the triforce proc bonus damage. But Titanic is more expensive and Titanic is easily the best of the mixed AD/HP items in terms of damage.
I feel like Triforce-BotRK-Titanic-Sterak's-Maw should be your core build now.
That is incredibly squishy for Jax. Its basically 3 offensive and 2 hybrid items. Im sure hes crazy in 1v1 and 2v2 but you can't really do much in the backlines with that build, because, you are dead.
It almost reminds me of when people used to say after the initial Olaf rework you should use him as a frontline tank killer, which is kinda what you have to do with that build.
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote: I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
what's the reason for building sterak's before titanic? since both the shield and ad scale with levels/hp i would think sterak's would be something you'd want to build later rather than sooner.
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote: I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
what's the reason for building sterak's before titanic? since both the shield and ad scale with levels/hp i would think sterak's would be something you'd want to build later rather than sooner.
Sterak's obv scales better in late game with its % bonuses but compared to Titantic, it's still the better defensive option. Even though there's a Giant's Belt on both side of the equation, Sterak's is 100 more HP and the passive is better in duels (when I invade) and in team fights.
Tiamat does help with clear speed but I'm rushing Devourer, which already makes doing camps a breeze but also sets me up very weak defensively after that first item. Needing to stay alive so I can make use of all the AS I have, I think Sterak's is a better second item build over Titanic Hydra.
On September 03 2015 06:53 Requizen wrote: What do you think of Sterak's on Volibear? I found Dead Man's Plate quite good on him, dunno about the other new stuff.
Haven't played Voli in a while and prob won't for another few weeks (rather grind Cinderhulk Sej to level V, etc), I think Sterak's is fine for Voli as a 5th or 6th item. He can obviously make use of the % bonuses. More HP is never a bad thing for Voli, esp when it comes with a solid item passive.
have you tried deadman's plate after devourer? i get that second if i'm not fed enough to rush titanic on Xin and the defensive stats obvious crush Sterak's. wouldn't it be a guaranteed 100 stack slow with his ult?
Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc).
On September 03 2015 04:30 Sonnington wrote: You said I could take you up on the question of Lucidity boots vs Sorcs on Lux. Out of curiosity, how much more damage would Sorcs do over Lucidity boots? For the sake of argument, lets say they're running the same rune pages without cdr and same masteries with the flat 5%cdr. With roughly the same 3 item build, Morellos, Deathcap, Void Staff, and respective boots. For the sake of argument, lets say the enemy has 30mr and 100mr. If it makes big enough of a difference we can switch Void for Luden's.
For Harass damage: At 30 MR - Mpen +13% At 42 MR - Mpen +14% At 55 MR - Mpen +14% At 100 MR - Mpen +11%
For Burst damage: At 30 MR - Mpen +13% At 42 MR - Mpen +14% At 55 MR - Mpen +13% At 100 MR - Mpen +11%
For Sustained damage: At 30 MR - CDR +7% At 42 MR - CDR +6% At 55 MR - CDR +7% At 100 MR - CDR +8%
So as we can see, Pen boots are 11-14% better at burst and harass damage, and can stay in a teamfight 35% longer, while CDR boots are 6-8% better at sustained damage.
In general we tend to prioritize Burst damage 1st, Harass damage 2nd and Sustained damage 3rd I'd say. This can potentially change based on the game, but it's a good generalization.
Now, if you want to dig a little deeper into that sustained damage figure, lets look at the 30 MR figure. Assuming no harass damage at all, Mpen does 261 more burst damage, while CDR does 19 more sustained damage.
This means that CDR doesn't start doing more damage until 14 seconds into the fight. Since after 37 seconds the CDR runs out of mana, you can functionally say that even for sustained damage, CDR is only better at fights that last between 14 and 37 seconds, while Mpen is better at fights 1-14 seconds and 37+ seconds.
For every 4 seconds of E harass prior to the teamfight, that gap closes by another second in favor of Mpen. So if there's 12 seconds of harass prior to the teamfight, CDR only performs better at 17-37 seconds.
As you can see, Pen boots are much better in all categories but sustained damage, where they are arguably about the same.
This math doesn't touch at all on one of the primary reasons why CDR boots are bad though, which is that you can get CDR runes but you can't really get Mpen runes.
If you wanted to do a more accurate comparison of how good Mpen boots are, you'd do Mpen boots + CDR/level runes vs. CDR boots + AP/level runes. In that comparison the Mpen boots would also be performing better at sustained damage, because the CDR would be the same for both builds, but 15 Mpen outdamages 27 AP.
Or if you wanted defensive runes, MR boots + CDR runes would give you 15% CDR, 25 MR and Tenacity, while CDR boots + MR runes would only give you 15% CDR and 12 MR.
Basically, in order for CDR boots to be good, you either A - have to have a kit that places very low value on Mpen (Lulu), or B - you have to have some reason why it's difficult to get CDR elsewhere in your item build (Viktor). Potentially both of these things need to be true, actually.
it was a misunderstanding, you said CDR boots were terrible in GD and people that don't give a fuck about Lux said they have a place in the game. no one was trying to argue about the damage for a specific champion.
Well, I said they were terrible in response to somebody asking about them on Lux specifically, but yes.
In general, CDR boots are inferior to Pen boots on most APs. Those numbers are for Lux and Lux is an extreme example for a few different reasons, but they are indicative of what the general trend would be for most AP champions.
There are AP mid champions that can make a case for CDR boots, but really not very many. Lulu and Viktor are the two good examples that come to mind.
I mean it's true that he gets a lot of mobility and defense out of CDR.
But he also gets a lot of damage from pen.
Saying that he gets a lot from CDR is a good argument for CDR, but its not necessarily a good argument for CDR boots. You need to also make the argument either that A - he doesn't really want pen much (the Lulu argument) or that B - its difficult to efficiently get CDR on him from other sources (the Viktor argument).
Argument A definitely isn't the case for Fizz. I suppose argument B could be the case.
I guess for AD Fizz argument A might be somewhat valid? Isn't most of AD Fizz's damage still magic?
Why would it be hard to get CDR on Viktor? Why not just buy Morello? Its not like Viktor is hurting for AP with Hexcore. He just won't necessarily get Morello first. Hex, Morello, Void? Hex, Void, Morello?
with triforce and tank items Fizz will do about an even 50/50 split of damage types.
i dunno, maybe it's just me, but Morellonomicon seems like it provides neither the raw power, nor the mana that i want on AP Fizz and Athene's 60ap doesn't cut it at all. and when i have seen Morellonomicon built in pro play it was often followed by CDR boots for a super quick 40%.
You've got to question whether or not Morello + CDR boots is as efficient as Morello + CDR runes. I don't pretend to be a Fizz expert, but I think there is room for a debate there.
As for Viktor, I think pretty much all of the pro Viktor builds use CDR boots now and don't get Morello at all? Isn't that right?
Late game Viktor does obscene damage regardless, and going for CDR boots lets you take big AP items like zhonya and rylai that provide some defense. I think that's the logic.
On September 03 2015 15:25 Goumindong wrote: Why would it be hard to get CDR on Viktor? Why not just buy Morello? Its not like Viktor is hurting for AP with Hexcore. He just won't necessarily get Morello first. Hex, Morello, Void? Hex, Void, Morello?
If the hex changes make his early-mid mana problems bad I could see that being smart, but Viktor does have his slot management issues. Is sorcs+Morello+1NLR better than lucidity+2NLR (assuming everyone gets Void and cap, which they should).
On September 03 2015 15:25 chalice wrote: with triforce and tank items Fizz will do about an even 50/50 split of damage types.
i dunno, maybe it's just me, but Morellonomicon seems like it provides neither the raw power, nor the mana that i want on AP Fizz and Athene's 60ap doesn't cut it at all. and when i have seen Morellonomicon built in pro play it was often followed by CDR boots for a super quick 40%.
Get that yung Nashor's tooth. High AP, CDR, and splitpush away.
On September 03 2015 15:58 Ketara wrote: You've got to question whether or not Morello + CDR boots is as efficient as Morello + CDR runes. I don't pretend to be a Fizz expert, but I think there is room for a debate there.
As for Viktor, I think pretty much all of the pro Viktor builds use CDR boots now and don't get Morello at all? Isn't that right?
Late game Viktor does obscene damage regardless, and going for CDR boots lets you take big AP items like zhonya and rylai that provide some defense. I think that's the logic.
Yea but well Viktor doesn't have comparatively high AP scaling (a lot of this due to the base damage on his auto attack as well as the magic damage transfer). He is a two spell mage like Lux and because of this should favor Pen over AP. Plus he gets a lot of AP naturally in his core and so that should be less of a consideration.
His E is 357 AP to double. His ult is 502 AP to double[636 on just the burst portion]. His Q is 614 AP to double (all values level 18).
Aside from his laser these are almost worse than lux, who has a notoriously high base damages (385, 400, 666 q,e,r respectively, 777 on her passive which brings these up a bit more assuming you get it off)
ed: I actually think athenes is better on Vik than morello. The MR is nice, the AP he doesn't really need. The passive of Athenes really scales well with Vik's free mana from his hexcore. Making him really not need blue (if you have mana problems that is)
When you're looking at the Viktor builds, you're not actually prioritizing damage. You're prioritizing secondary stats like Rylai slow and HP or Zhonya active or whatever.
If you wanted to find the best possible damage build, it'd probably have Sorcs. But Viktors late game damage is so incredibly obscene that there's a point where you're like okay, I have enough damage I need secondary statistics.
And those are actually a little bit difficult to get on Viktor if you're getting Morello, and on him the mana Regen is only debatably useful.
Lux at 40% CDR uses 45.5 mana per second with a base pool of 1184 and 3.92 regen, so with just a Morello for mana regen she runs out of mana in 31.4 seconds.
Viktor at 40% CDR uses 57 mana per second with a base pool of 1174 and 3.92 regen, so with just his Hex Core he runs out of mana in 30.6 seconds.
These are comparable. Lux's mana issues are probably worse because she probably spends more during a siege before a teamfight starts, and Viktor is probably not casting Q on CD for the entire teamfight, which is where most of his mana issues come from.
The argument that Viktor needs to have Morello/Athenes for mana on top of his Hex Core is IMO questionable. Because he has fewer item slots to work with, there's pressure on him to not get it in favor of something else that he maybe likes more.
And if he's not getting Morello/Athenes, it becomes difficult for him to get CDR elsewhere. Viktor likes CDR, he likes having 100% uptime on his Q movespeed and he likes having more Gravity Fields, and he likes sustained damage basically just as much as he likes burst. He likes his burst damage too, but he has so much damage in general that it's reasonable for him to sacrifice a little bit of damage for more defense and utility. So in a world where he's not getting Morello/Athenes, CDR boots are suddenly an acceptable choice.
In the different regional finals games, there's 7 Viktor picks. 5 CDR shoes no Morello/Athenes, 1 CDR shoes + Athenes, 1 Sorc shoes no Morello/Athenes.
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote: I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
I usually try to get max cdr on jax. Titanic doesn't make that much sense aside from giving hp. On top jax i've been going trinity steraks fotm locket for max cdr with the blues, not sure if its the best way to do it, but low cd on q and e is a big deal against adcs and any kitey team, botrk is better if they don't kite obviously.
jungle i used to do similar but with devourer instead of trinity and get trinity or botrk later would probably do the same.
On September 03 2015 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc).
based on what reasoning? For xin for example he doesn't benefit from the slow at all since he has his own, so you need to justify the speed while omen is much better against ADCs which is normally the reason you'll buy armour on those two since you get so much for free anyway. Not saying DMP is bad but I dont' like these blanket statements with no good justification, this one is certainty wrong.
I basically play jax purely for team fighting which is why I don't do the trinity botrk devourer lolollol 1v1 stuff.
It's worth noting we haven't seen the effects of the viktor nerf in competitive yet, and the nerfs are pretty huge. Basically in an attempt to kill viktors damage, they instead forced him to go full damage and killed his mobility.
You still need the e upgrade from hex, but the old strat of a fast level 2-3 hex core is now not worth it until at least level 14-15, as you lose wayyy too much ap and just can't affect the early midgame teamfights. The more successful viktors i've seen have just been going hex-e into ludens into rabas into double hex upgrade, then voids lich etc.
Once you have e enchant and another item you oneshot every wave anyway, so it's not like you should ever have mana issues unless you're just missing spells everywhere, so i really don't see the point of morellos,and your power spikes now come at around level 15-16, when you have dc, ludens and level 3 hex core, where you start having obscene amounts of ap and just oneshot everyone.
What if you just never build Blade of the Ruined King on Jax? What if you rely on a Doran's Blade and possibly Red Elixir or runes for lifesteal, and focus your build more on "tanky burst"?
Specifically I'm thinking of Trinity Force into Titanic Hydra into Dead Man's Plate. Jax, perhaps more so than any other champion, really benefits from an AA reset, and with Titanic Hydra and his W he guarantees an ult proc and three stacks of his passive unconditionally. Dead Man's Plate is super good on him: tankiness, movespeed, burst damage, and a slow to catch them in your E. For the same reasons you don't build attack speed on Vi, perhaps these new items are enough to replace Blade of the Ruined King on Jax. It feels pretty heretical, skipping BotRK on Jax, but I found some good success last night with it.
On September 03 2015 06:20 NeoIllusions wrote: I play Jax in Jungle instead of Top and been doing well building Sterak's into Titanic after Devourer. Really light on the resists but still tanky with all the HP. Counterstrike makes or breaks you tbh.
I usually try to get max cdr on jax. Titanic doesn't make that much sense aside from giving hp. On top jax i've been going trinity steraks fotm locket for max cdr with the blues, not sure if its the best way to do it, but low cd on q and e is a big deal against adcs and any kitey team, botrk is better if they don't kite obviously.
jungle i used to do similar but with devourer instead of trinity and get trinity or botrk later would probably do the same.
On September 03 2015 07:39 NeoIllusions wrote: Haven't gotten DMP second because it's purely defensive but if I needed an armor defensive item immediately for whatever reason, it'd be Plate. For Jax and Xin, DMP is definitely better than Omen (assuming you aren't trying to be the primary tank for your team, etc).
based on what reasoning? For xin for example he doesn't benefit from the slow at all since he has his own, so you need to justify the speed while omen is much better against ADCs which is normally the reason you'll buy armour on those two since you get so much for free anyway. Not saying DMP is bad but I dont' like these blanket statements with no good justification, this one is certainty wrong.
I basically play jax purely for team fighting which is why I don't do the trinity botrk devourer lolollol 1v1 stuff.
it's not super valuable on Xin, but it seems like there is a noticeable difference in the strength between the decaying 75% DMP slow and the 45% from Xin's E, the DMP proc feels almost like a mini-snare at times. if you don't chain your slows perfectly i would almost think that the Randuin's weak aoe slow is the one that loses more of its usefulness due to overlap with Xin's E.
more importantly i'm not sure why you'd discount the move speed on a champ with a point and click gap closer, moving faster than your opponent when you're trying to get in E range seems like it has a decent amount of value to me and there's certainly benefit in moving around the map faster when you're jungling. i think it's even somewhat common for players to pick up mobi boots on Xin.
Vi is a lot worse at sticking to people because of how her Q works (not targetable, longer cd (and even longer if you factor in the "charge" time) for around the same range), and her passive doesn't make her as tanky as Jax's E and R, so they don't really build the same way. I dunno who's got the better base stats, since Jax's got shafted pretty hard... I checked, holy fucked they wrecked him so hard, he's actually worse than her about everywhere.
Skipping BotRK is not new, and everyone worth his salt knows that if you try to build it after Triforce and dive head first into fights is about when high-burst mages like LB will wreck you with their own powerspike. Also focus fire. What BotRK makes Jax good at is pushing (well, better, not good), dueling and tower killing, which are all required for splitpushing. So you build BotRK second while you splitpush or try to fight skirmishes, go find 2v2s or 3v3s in the enemy jungle or something, abusing your strong 1v1. If you want to group up, siege and teamfight after your first item then you need to be tankier unless you have a dedicated frontline. But in that case there are better picks than Jax so why do that if you're using him?
On September 04 2015 00:40 GrandInquisitor wrote: What if you just never build Blade of the Ruined King on Jax? What if you rely on a Doran's Blade and possibly Red Elixir or runes for lifesteal, and focus your build more on "tanky burst"?
nobody really builds botrk on jax for the lifesteal, they do it for sticking power and the huge onhit damage, jax does'nt need lifesteal more than any bruiser and almost none of them really want lifesteal
So I guess bruisers not wanting lifesteal is the reason they all get hydra? I dunno maybe I'm confusing the term with psuedo-assassins (Riven/J4/Trynda/Fiora?) but not buying lifesteal on those guys is a surefire way to lose every skirmish ever.
All 4 of those guys are either melee carries or AD assassins. You could get into a semantic argument, but just comparing builds, all of them build a fuckton of AD and minimal defense and kill you very quickly. Bruiser is a shitty term, but the most obvious example of guys who used to build lifesteal and now don't is Renekton, who started skipping both of the lifesteal items people would usually build immediately after Titanic got introduced. They would usually get it just because better itemization didn't exist.
It is really simple actually. If you are getting multiple damage items lifesteal is good otherwise it isn't. Every champ you mentioned gets >2 damage items. Jax is one of the very few exceptions just because of how much base damage he has.
Say renekton didn't get hydra but went tiamat>tank or grabbed bork with more damage to just delete people.
On September 04 2015 03:15 Osmoses wrote: Yeah I edited that shit so fast lol.
hydra is the best pure ad item for most bruisers because of the cost efficiency and the active and the passive helps for people who cant farm well they don't care about the lifesteal
lifesteal is relevant for farmed adcs and even then it's not that noticeable most of the time except in extreme cases of out sustaining poke
its not useless but its not a priority for pretty much any bruiser
Yeah, pretty much that^. Bruisers get hydra if they need more waveclear and a high damage item. The lifesteal is nice, but it's not the main reason why you buy it.
I think the champ where it's the most noticeable is Riven, in a given fight that little shit can go from 1% to 100% while stunlocking you. So, it's relevant in skirmishes/duels, not so much perhaps in full out teamfights.
Lifesteal is very important for splitpushes. If you are the aggressor you are inevitably going to have to take 50/50 trades to push the advantage and actually get turret damage. A perfect example was Duke vs. Trace in Najin vs. Jin Air, where Duke had a 100 CS lead as Fiora but the trades were ~ 50/50 because to actually get a trade he had to get in turret range. Then he would kill a wave and heal up the turret shots.
Granted, that series was terrible, but still shows the premise. Some like Mundo and Renekton (maybe Garen? IDK) have enough innate that its not as important.
I'd call Riven the penultimate bruiser as the lifesteal and back to back cc makes her capable of staying in/going in and out of a fight for a prolonged period of time while still dealing decent damage.
So what is a tank anyway, screw the tribunal and these bans and shit (right guys?), I'm in elo hell and can't carry despite going the overpowered Rylais on adc build because Yorick is op as shit.
No but srsly, in my opinion lifesteal is definitely worth getting for it's own sake for any non-assassin without resets, if nothing else then because it lets you heal without going back to base.
People really underestimate the effect of lifesteal (early or late) in keeping you healthy and active in the map. The lifesteal on Botrk means that Jax can go farm the jungle without taking damage. It means he can sustain in lane better than any tank item so long as he has time on the wave. It means that he can trade aggressively to shove another person out and then continue to push instead of backing.
Many bruisers have some innate sustain like garen or renekton or nasus and so they don't need lifesteal to stay in lane after a trade. But for the champions that don't they need some form of it if they aren't going to be chugging pots all day long. A wave has about 2335+50 HP/ minute. So if you only do half the waves HP in lifesteal possible damage and you have 10% lifesteal you get about a potion per wave. Both of those should be low for someone who can hard push like Jax. And well it adds up
On September 04 2015 04:41 Goumindong wrote: People really underestimate the effect of lifesteal (early or late) in keeping you healthy and active in the map. The lifesteal on Botrk means that Jax can go farm the jungle without taking damage. It means he can sustain in lane better than any tank item so long as he has time on the wave. It means that he can trade aggressively to shove another person out and then continue to push instead of backing.
Many bruisers have some innate sustain like garen or renekton or nasus and so they don't need lifesteal to stay in lane after a trade. But for the champions that don't they need some form of it if they aren't going to be chugging pots all day long. A wave has about 2335+50 HP/ minute. So if you only do half the waves HP in lifesteal possible damage and you have 10% lifesteal you get about a potion per wave. Both of those should be low for someone who can hard push like Jax. And well it adds up
I mean, those are all super nice things, but what is the opportunity cost? Can you get enough of that effect off of two Doran's Blades instead, and get Titanic Hydra's AA reset / waveclear several thousand gold earlier?
Just started playing again after ages and ages - I think around 2 years. The game now looks incredible, the jungle is crazy, and it feels like half the point and click abilities have become skillshots (this is probably an exaggeration).
What are good runes these days? Am I still ok going with flat armour and scaling magic resist on everyone? Every thread on the subject seems to be really old...
On September 04 2015 21:26 Tal wrote: Just started playing again after ages and ages - I think around 2 years. The game now looks incredible, the jungle is crazy, and it feels like half the point and click abilities have become skillshots (this is probably an exaggeration).
What are good runes these days? Am I still ok going with flat armour and scaling magic resist on everyone? Every thread on the subject seems to be really old...
On September 04 2015 21:26 Tal wrote: Just started playing again after ages and ages - I think around 2 years. The game now looks incredible, the jungle is crazy, and it feels like half the point and click abilities have become skillshots (this is probably an exaggeration).
What are good runes these days? Am I still ok going with flat armour and scaling magic resist on everyone? Every thread on the subject seems to be really old...
If it's been two years, scaling MR was buffed at some point to break even with flat MR at around level 8. Scaling MR isn't the most popular MR option. Anyway rune choice hasn't changed much. ADCs take Attack Speed quints now, but it's not a huge deal if you just use flat damage. Lifesteal quints were nerfed at some point and are considered useless. We recently had a rather in depth discussion about runes here:
On September 04 2015 21:26 Tal wrote: Just started playing again after ages and ages - I think around 2 years. The game now looks incredible, the jungle is crazy, and it feels like half the point and click abilities have become skillshots (this is probably an exaggeration).
What are good runes these days? Am I still ok going with flat armour and scaling magic resist on everyone? Every thread on the subject seems to be really old...
Yeah it's still pretty ok. You can check out probuilds.net for the runes of pro players.
Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
from my experience even a shit trundle takes a dump on her
I usually just play shen and just have more influence on the other side of the map while being tanky enough to not get rekt by her. haven't had much issues with this matchup.
Find shen to be a pretty easy matchup for her. He hardly applies pressure then you just have to try match his TPs and do so much more because you gotten so much more or just bully down his tower then solo kill him if he ever tries to push out the lane.
Sion on the other hand is a decent tank. His waveclear early is really annoying to deal with and he has tons of utility to back it up. So if you want a tank try that out.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
from my experience even a shit trundle takes a dump on her
I usually just play shen and just have more influence on the other side of the map while being tanky enough to not get rekt by her. haven't had much issues with this matchup.
I haven't played Trundle in some time, maybe I'll bring him up there. The sustain is pretty real.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
from my experience even a shit trundle takes a dump on her
I usually just play shen and just have more influence on the other side of the map while being tanky enough to not get rekt by her. haven't had much issues with this matchup.
Find shen to be a pretty easy matchup for her. He hardly applies pressure then you just have to try match his TPs and do so much more because you gotten so much more or just bully down his tower then solo kill him if he ever tries to push out the lane.
Sion on the other hand is a decent tank. His waveclear early is really annoying to deal with and he has tons of utility to back it up. So if you want a tank try that out.
I actually haven't even played Sion since the rework. He seems pretty solid though.
Fiora has such big outplay potential that I'm not sure there's any real "counter lane" you can do. Best is to go even and try make her life really hard by just pressuring I think. Even Garen I've found to be alright matchup, sure he pushes really hard and does a lot of dick stuff but if you just time your stuff right you can kill him like you kill anyone lol.
Pushing waves then impacting other places is pretty good. If you want to contest her in a fight then be prepared to try outplay her because otherwise you on the back foot the majority of the time. Trundle sounds pretty good for that, she can't really stick on him. Sion is similar in huge body with lots of utility and if you time ulti you can get away.
I'm seriously considering just making a full armor page just to deal with her when I get the matchup. I don't mind losing lane, but it does suck that she just ends up snowballing super hard and rolling the rest of the team singlehandedly.
On September 04 2015 22:52 Requizen wrote: Who is a good top to pick into Fiora? I feel like she's really scary if she gets kills in lane, but not if you shut her down. But I feel like everyone I pick just gets bodied by her.
from my experience even a shit trundle takes a dump on her
I usually just play shen and just have more influence on the other side of the map while being tanky enough to not get rekt by her. haven't had much issues with this matchup.
Find shen to be a pretty easy matchup for her. He hardly applies pressure then you just have to try match his TPs and do so much more because you gotten so much more or just bully down his tower then solo kill him if he ever tries to push out the lane.
Sion on the other hand is a decent tank. His waveclear early is really annoying to deal with and he has tons of utility to back it up. So if you want a tank try that out.
idk I've never felt pressured by a fiora and I feel that the onus to apply pressure is on the fiora, not shen. I've never felt even remotely in danger by a fiora besides ganks and often am able to have kill potential or even kill fioras. I've also played this matchup several times with my fiora lover friend and he said he absolutely could not do shit to me (won lane every time or just stayed even). we played out several matchups to see what was good and I found shen to be the best (even without an ult in 1v1). then again, I only tested rumble, maokai, gnar, renekton, and shen with him. in 5v5 all I have to do is just give a shield along with my ports and then TP back to tower if needed to apply more pressure whereas fiora just has 1 tp and can't push me out of lane.
I found with hydra alone can outpush shen and just kill him 1v1 with ulti up pretty easily. Maybe all the shens I played were trash though. Early on in the lane shen feels pretty good but as soon as that one item timing hits it seems to turn. Then again this is only upper gold and not diamond.
edit: What kind of shen build do you go? If it works out well I may adopt it too
She's still gonna do %health true damage though. I assume you have to bring sustain to compete with her, and either 100-0 potential or really strong pressure/sustained damage, kinda like how you play against Vlad, 'cept she doesn't sustain as much but is stronger at early levels?
W is instant but the ult as a cast time (Lee Sin can kick you during the cast and get stunned while you're flying (then run away before you're back in range)), so she can Riposte it assuming she's got good reflexes.
Actually, how does Riven do in the matchup? Fiora dashes in, Riven E's to dodge the Riposte, stuns, and then tries to burst? Sounds like it'd be a pretty skill dependent lane rather than a counter, I suppose.
My experience of riven has been early on she's a menace but you can survive then later it's really just a skill matchup that's slightly in fiora's favour. Never faced super good rivens though
On September 05 2015 00:36 Numy wrote: My experience of riven has been early on she's a menace but you can survive then later it's really just a skill matchup that's slightly in fiora's favour. Never faced super good rivens though
Well as we all know, I am the best Riven player in the world.
I could maybe see Viktor working ok? Riposte makes her immune to Gravity Field's stun, but he can use it to zone her off and then just super clear? Maybe not.
Yea it is. My reasoning is that she is good in long fights cuz of her w and cuz most people are picking champs that just run at you. Same reason ashe is going up as well.
I wonder if the juggernaut guys are really so insanely strong or it's just the fact that they in line with the old carry top lane that we used to see so now they feel so much stronger because top lane as been neutered for so long. Also they most likely rather polarizing as they can just take over a game which is what people will always remember more than the times they got stomped. The number of times I've had to explain skarner/darius's mechanics to people has made me lose faith in European education.
On September 05 2015 02:35 Numy wrote: I wonder if the juggernaut guys are really so insanely strong or it's just the fact that they in line with the old carry top lane that we used to see so now they feel so much stronger because top lane as been neutered for so long. Also they most likely rather polarizing as they can just take over a game which is what people will always remember more than the times they got stomped. The number of times I've had to explain skarner/darius's mechanics to people has made me lose faith in European education.
Having said that they prob are over tweaked lol
They are really insanely strong. All three tops are in the top 6 of win and play rate. With only champions that they do poorly against (wukong, heimerdinger, malphite) or fit the same kind of play style (dominate lane->win game) coming close and all of those with lower pick rates. (And we kind of expect that higher pick rates correlate with lower win rates)
They have to be as a function of their design, that or overly weak.
Ed: Morde has a 65% win rate and as far as I can tell only a 2% pick rate because vayne and janna have strong pick rates and are good against him. (That is if Morde is unbanned janna/vayne are likely to be picked, so morde goes unpicked)
So basically they're all fucking ridiculous and I def need to redo my bans with the updated info.
On September 05 2015 02:35 Numy wrote: I wonder if the juggernaut guys are really so insanely strong or it's just the fact that they in line with the old carry top lane that we used to see so now they feel so much stronger because top lane as been neutered for so long. Also they most likely rather polarizing as they can just take over a game which is what people will always remember more than the times they got stomped. The number of times I've had to explain skarner/darius's mechanics to people has made me lose faith in European education.
Having said that they prob are over tweaked lol
They are really insanely strong. All three tops are in the top 6 of win and play rate. With only champions that they do poorly against (wukong, heimerdinger, malphite)... So basically they're all fucking ridiculous and I def need to redo my bans with the updated info.
Hypothetical situation that defs doesn't reflect reality: if I hate Wukong and can't play against it, say it lowers my team's chances/odds/whatever by 5%, am I better off banning Wukong and ceding one of the juggernauts to their team, or banning all the juggernauts and accepting that they might play wukong randomly?
Not sure. There being so many high win high pick tops means that the optimal play isn't too certain. I will update my spreadsheet tonight and get back to you on it.
That being said, never feel bad about banning things you don't think you can play against.
Problem is you can't put a % on how your bans influence your team. Cuz say you don't ban skarner who has 80% ban rate or so there is no way to know if your team is just gonna rage or w/e which is a legit concern.
Nono I mean the whole "oh wow x not banned enjoy the disco"/"wow wasting bans on y what a smart player". Which at least on euw is almost every game so it might actually not be worth. If you are confident you can carry even if your team walks in with the tilt then it is fine but otherwise doesn't seem like a good risk to take.
If that is a significant issue then yea. The tilt is real. Unfortunately I can't actually look at that with the data I have. I don't find that banning phase usually has that kind of effect though of course my experiences probably differ from yours
how does irelia do against garen and darius? after months of maining bruiser fizz i'm pretty sure sticking with that is a mistake with the latest changes.
i know i should just play malphite top now, but after fizz the complete lack of mobility and early kill pressure is kind of unfun and i've been considering putting some real effort into learning irelia and can't really decide between the two champions.
On September 05 2015 06:49 Numy wrote: I completely forgot to mention in the previous Fiora discussion that Irelia seems pretty good against her. Haven't seen one not do well against Fiora.
I could see that as long as Irelia can reliably not get her Equilibrium Strike Riposted.
On September 05 2015 07:03 chalice wrote: how does irelia do against garen and darius? after months of maining bruiser fizz i'm pretty sure sticking with that is a mistake with the latest changes.
i know i should just play malphite top now, but after fizz the complete lack of mobility and early kill pressure is kind of unfun and i've been considering putting some real effort into learning irelia and can't really decide between the two champions.
garen sucks in lane now but it used to be a good matchup for garen, probaby not the best pick but a good irelia rapes everyone if they aren't smart so it won't matter probably similar with darius its not the best matchup to pick against darius but irelias really good.
On September 05 2015 02:35 Numy wrote: I wonder if the juggernaut guys are really so insanely strong or it's just the fact that they in line with the old carry top lane that we used to see so now they feel so much stronger because top lane as been neutered for so long. Also they most likely rather polarizing as they can just take over a game which is what people will always remember more than the times they got stomped. The number of times I've had to explain skarner/darius's mechanics to people has made me lose faith in European education.
Having said that they prob are over tweaked lol
They are really insanely strong. All three tops are in the top 6 of win and play rate. With only champions that they do poorly against (wukong, heimerdinger, malphite) or fit the same kind of play style (dominate lane->win game) coming close and all of those with lower pick rates. (And we kind of expect that higher pick rates correlate with lower win rates)
They have to be as a function of their design, that or overly weak.
Ed: Morde has a 65% win rate and as far as I can tell only a 2% pick rate because vayne and janna have strong pick rates and are good against him. (That is if Morde is unbanned janna/vayne are likely to be picked, so morde goes unpicked)
So basically they're all fucking ridiculous and I def need to redo my bans with the updated info.
Interesting results:
Purple bans should be Vayne, Ahri, Lux. Blue Bans should be Morde, Jinx, Darius.*
Pure Margin(with Morde) is Ahri, Lux, Vayne, Darius, Blitz, Annie, Garen, Fiora, Riven, Malphite, Braum
Pure Margin(ignoring Morde) is Ahri, Lux, Vayne, Jinx, Darius, Blitz, Annie, Ashe, Sivir, Garen, Fiora, Riven,
*if i leave Morde out potentially because his winrate on champion.gg is incorrect then the path is Ahri, Vayne, Jinx for purple and lux, darius, blitz for Blue.
There are too many high win rate, high play rate junglers to make it make sense to ban them out. Additionally the bad junglers aren't so bad or so common that you're likely going to push them to something horrible. Top has, more or less, the same problem. But not quite so strong.
I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
Have you tried causing a slowpush against you and calling for early jungler support?
My method is to only lasthit first 3 melee minions, and then kill ranged and first minion from 2nd wave asap. That way I get level 2 by the time opponent comes to lane and I have tp and minion advantage, so I try to go for aggressive trades and keep lane pushed so that he doesn't get level 3 long before me. I try to go back and tp to lane around 4th-5th minute, hopefully after an aggressive trade. I usually get an advantage 1v1 in that way, but of course that means I'm pushed early and a level 3 gank can fuck me hard (but usually with help of minions and flash I can survive).
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
Have you tried causing a slowpush against you and calling for early jungler support?
I haven't tried that. My concern was mainly to keep up in levels with him but it could work as most junglers started bottom side in Solo q.
@AlterKot - I think that's what the guy did to me when I went raptors but the wave built up huge on his side so I landed up getting a ton of easy farm. However he was awful and didn't even bring TP so that game prob tells me nothing lol. Who tries to counterpick Fiora with a Swain. Mindboggling lol. Any streamers play top a lot that maybe show off what they do?
On September 06 2015 23:17 AlterKot wrote: My method is to only lasthit first 3 melee minions, and then kill ranged and first minion from 2nd wave asap. That way I get level 2 by the time opponent comes to lane and I have tp and minion advantage, so I try to go for aggressive trades and keep lane pushed so that he doesn't get level 3 long before me. I try to go back and tp to lane around 4th-5th minute, hopefully after an aggressive trade. I usually get an advantage 1v1 in that way, but of course that means I'm pushed early and a level 3 gank can fuck me hard (but usually with help of minions and flash I can survive).
then you are even levels and he has more pots so he just doesnt let you push it in and freezes wave in front of his tower
I wonder how many years it will be before Riot figures out a way to balance the jungle so that nobody can get an advantage by doing the junglers stuff at level 1.
They've been trying since season 3 and no matter what they do people still figure out ways to screw with it.
On September 06 2015 23:17 AlterKot wrote: My method is to only lasthit first 3 melee minions, and then kill ranged and first minion from 2nd wave asap. That way I get level 2 by the time opponent comes to lane and I have tp and minion advantage, so I try to go for aggressive trades and keep lane pushed so that he doesn't get level 3 long before me. I try to go back and tp to lane around 4th-5th minute, hopefully after an aggressive trade. I usually get an advantage 1v1 in that way, but of course that means I'm pushed early and a level 3 gank can fuck me hard (but usually with help of minions and flash I can survive).
then you are even levels and he has more pots so he just doesnt let you push it in and freezes wave in front of his tower
if you cant do a camp duo with jungle
Yea you have to basically kill him if you do that because he just has way better sustain and now you're in a dangerous lane position. I guess you could back and TP but then you merely getting a bunch of pots as it's too early to buy anything else. Feels like a waste of a tp.
Well I got shouted at and insulted by this jungler when I took raptors on red side. Then he insulted me when he tried to gank the top lane straight away with 2 full waves of blue side minions built up and nothing happened. People are fucking dumb nafta. Never doubt. Guy doesn't even bother getting crab lol
Just to be clear, I'm sure my solution isn't perfect. It's just a gimmick that's been working pretty well for me because of what I assume is opponent not knowing how to react. Although I don't think he can freeze becase we are even in levels and my wave is big enough for me to be able to push him to turret, and then either I can keep him under turret or just reset a wave and then make sure I hit level 3 not too long after him. And then another advantage is that I prevent my jungler from raging because I wanted to double jungle or took his camp.
On September 06 2015 23:31 Ketara wrote: I wonder how many years it will be before Riot figures out a way to balance the jungle so that nobody can get an advantage by doing the junglers stuff at level 1.
They've been trying since season 3 and no matter what they do people still figure out ways to screw with it.
No XP (only gold) for jungle creeps unless you have a hunter's machete.
On September 06 2015 23:31 Ketara wrote: I wonder how many years it will be before Riot figures out a way to balance the jungle so that nobody can get an advantage by doing the junglers stuff at level 1.
They've been trying since season 3 and no matter what they do people still figure out ways to screw with it.
No XP (only gold) for jungle creeps unless you have a hunter's machete.
That would completely destroy the jungle buddy meta, idk if that's a good idea. I like lane swapping and 4vs0 in competitive play, it gives a nice new strategical dimension to the game. Not to mention that in past the laning phase there would be little incentive for 4 players on a team to kill jungle creeps, which is dumb.
Jungle has always been screwed, S2 wasn't really much better, Wriggle's Lantern and Lee/Shyv counter jungling was pretty stifling as well.
On September 05 2015 02:35 Numy wrote: I wonder if the juggernaut guys are really so insanely strong or it's just the fact that they in line with the old carry top lane that we used to see so now they feel so much stronger because top lane as been neutered for so long. Also they most likely rather polarizing as they can just take over a game which is what people will always remember more than the times they got stomped. The number of times I've had to explain skarner/darius's mechanics to people has made me lose faith in European education.
Having said that they prob are over tweaked lol
They are really insanely strong. All three tops are in the top 6 of win and play rate. With only champions that they do poorly against (wukong, heimerdinger, malphite) or fit the same kind of play style (dominate lane->win game) coming close and all of those with lower pick rates. (And we kind of expect that higher pick rates correlate with lower win rates)
They have to be as a function of their design, that or overly weak.
Ed: Morde has a 65% win rate and as far as I can tell only a 2% pick rate because vayne and janna have strong pick rates and are good against him. (That is if Morde is unbanned janna/vayne are likely to be picked, so morde goes unpicked)
So basically they're all fucking ridiculous and I def need to redo my bans with the updated info.
Interesting results:
Purple bans should be Vayne, Ahri, Lux. Blue Bans should be Morde, Jinx, Darius.*
Pure Margin(with Morde) is Ahri, Lux, Vayne, Darius, Blitz, Annie, Garen, Fiora, Riven, Malphite, Braum
Pure Margin(ignoring Morde) is Ahri, Lux, Vayne, Jinx, Darius, Blitz, Annie, Ashe, Sivir, Garen, Fiora, Riven,
*if i leave Morde out potentially because his winrate on champion.gg is incorrect then the path is Ahri, Vayne, Jinx for purple and lux, darius, blitz for Blue.
There are too many high win rate, high play rate junglers to make it make sense to ban them out. Additionally the bad junglers aren't so bad or so common that you're likely going to push them to something horrible. Top has, more or less, the same problem. But not quite so strong.
So i just realized i was using the wrong line for my analysis. I was using pick rate when i should have been using non-banned pick rate to estimate the weighted win rate for non-banned champions. This does change things
Purple Sides bans become Skarner, Vayne, Morde(Jinx) and Blue Side bans become Darius, Ahri, Lux.
Pure margin is Skarner, Darius, Ahri, Lux, Garen, Fiora, Blitzcrank, Vayne, (Morde), Jinx, Ashe, Sivir, Xin, Riven, Malphite
On September 04 2015 21:26 Tal wrote: Just started playing again after ages and ages - I think around 2 years. The game now looks incredible, the jungle is crazy, and it feels like half the point and click abilities have become skillshots (this is probably an exaggeration).
What are good runes these days? Am I still ok going with flat armour and scaling magic resist on everyone? Every thread on the subject seems to be really old...
If it's been two years, scaling MR was buffed at some point to break even with flat MR at around level 8. Scaling MR isn't the most popular MR option. Anyway rune choice hasn't changed much. ADCs take Attack Speed quints now, but it's not a huge deal if you just use flat damage. Lifesteal quints were nerfed at some point and are considered useless. We recently had a rather in depth discussion about runes here:
On September 05 2015 07:03 chalice wrote: how does irelia do against garen and darius? after months of maining bruiser fizz i'm pretty sure sticking with that is a mistake with the latest changes.
i know i should just play malphite top now, but after fizz the complete lack of mobility and early kill pressure is kind of unfun and i've been considering putting some real effort into learning irelia and can't really decide between the two champions.
garen sucks in lane now but it used to be a good matchup for garen, probaby not the best pick but a good irelia rapes everyone if they aren't smart so it won't matter probably similar with darius its not the best matchup to pick against darius but irelias really good.
Garen jungle is actually really, really good. Cinderhulk -> Dead man's plate and you can't die while still having amazing ganks. Damage is as good as CC sometimes.
On September 05 2015 07:03 chalice wrote: how does irelia do against garen and darius? after months of maining bruiser fizz i'm pretty sure sticking with that is a mistake with the latest changes.
i know i should just play malphite top now, but after fizz the complete lack of mobility and early kill pressure is kind of unfun and i've been considering putting some real effort into learning irelia and can't really decide between the two champions.
garen sucks in lane now but it used to be a good matchup for garen, probaby not the best pick but a good irelia rapes everyone if they aren't smart so it won't matter probably similar with darius its not the best matchup to pick against darius but irelias really good.
Garen jungle is actually really, really good. Cinderhulk -> Dead man's plate and you can't die while still having amazing ganks. Damage is as good as CC sometimes.
his early damage in jungle is too weak for me id prefer to play some other champ
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
That's just way too risky imo. If they ward up properly they'll see you and you just lose the game lvl 1.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
Doesn't this require you to know that he's going to start jungle? Do you just ward the raptors then solo and try this.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
That's just way too risky imo. If they ward up properly they'll see you and you just lose the game lvl 1.
That actually sounds hilarious though
Would just stalling the wave for 10-12s be enough though? You just need your wave to reach his tower, then it doesn't matter if it starts fighting his. If anything this gets the lane super hard pushing towards you if you're coordinated with your jungler.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
That's just way too risky imo. If they ward up properly they'll see you and you just lose the game lvl 1.
That actually sounds hilarious though
Would just stalling the wave for 10-12s be enough though? You just need your wave to reach his tower, then it doesn't matter if it starts fighting his. If anything this gets the lane super hard pushing towards you if you're coordinated with your jungler.
We've seen similiar things in LCS before. It's decent on blue side where you don't actually have to go behind the enemy tower you just pull the enemy creeps towards tribush and your creeps hit the tower. You lose like 250ish hp doing this iirc and you don't quite catch up in exp (you're like 1 creep behind after everything dies I think) but it does get the wave pushing towards you like crazy which could be a good thing.
I normally just stand near their tower to stack the wave slightly, then drop aggro in the bush. You take like 40 damage tops, and it's guaranteed to shove towards you.
When i played vs equilash he just blind shoved on irelia as hard as he could, and the wave died under tower way before i got there. Not sure how matchup specific that is but he said he always does it if he doesn't see enemy laner in lane.
On September 10 2015 14:30 killerdog wrote: I normally just stand near their tower to stack the wave slightly, then drop aggro in the bush. You take like 40 damage tops, and it's guaranteed to shove towards you.
When i played vs equilash he just blind shoved on irelia as hard as he could, and the wave died under tower way before i got there. Not sure how matchup specific that is but he said he always does it if he doesn't see enemy laner in lane.
Well the idea is that if you do it the proper way your entire first creep wave gets eaten by the enemy tower So you have almost no exp disadvantage (eventually) and your jungler gets hella more exp.
Can't really do that in any reasonable way on purple side though.
On September 06 2015 22:45 Numy wrote: I'm not sure what thread I'm meant to ask this but I'll try it here.
What is the best way to deal with someone that starts raptor champ for top lane while you don't? I never know if you meant to start a soft push so you even out levels or just try deny as many creeps as possible top lane. Alternatively when should or shouldn't you start raptors on a top laner. I tried it out with Fiora while the enemy top pushed the lane, it gave me a massive load of CS but levels were evenish.
You can also try pulling the entire wave into the jungle/proxying his wave. Your wave will walk straight by and crash into his tower, costing him farm. It takes some practise to pull it off well though and screwing it up basically loses you the lane on level 1.
That's just way too risky imo. If they ward up properly they'll see you and you just lose the game lvl 1.
That actually sounds hilarious though
Would just stalling the wave for 10-12s be enough though? You just need your wave to reach his tower, then it doesn't matter if it starts fighting his. If anything this gets the lane super hard pushing towards you if you're coordinated with your jungler.
We've seen similiar things in LCS before. It's decent on blue side where you don't actually have to go behind the enemy tower you just pull the enemy creeps towards tribush and your creeps hit the tower. You lose like 250ish hp doing this iirc and you don't quite catch up in exp (you're like 1 creep behind after everything dies I think) but it does get the wave pushing towards you like crazy which could be a good thing.
Not at all lol. As singed you go and kill the wave behind their tower. This is pulling the enemy creeps and killing them after yours are dead to the enemy tower.
Just do it in customs a few times first, if you mess up that's RIP lane right there. The last ranged creep can be a bitch and deaggro if you move away too fast.
its extra good on garen because passive doeesnt drop and you can keep it up another 30 seconds lol scip fucked it up you only have to wait until ranged creeps are in tower range
On September 10 2015 18:13 Scip wrote: errr easier to show than to explain + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM70p43k67Q
something like this but probably don't need to tank nearly as much damage if you do it properly
Goddamn that seems like an awesome way to punish somebody who's starting a camp. Pretty much zeroes out the exp advantage, and you get a gold advantage.
Also I spend way too much on this game. Bought 100 bucks of RP early on this year and I'm just about out.
I'm climbing through gold using exclusively Shyvana (top or jungle), (when I don't get Shyvana I go Vlad/Kennen/Jayce) and I'm still not sure if it's me or the champions doing all the work...lol
Shyv is great for that because she's so easy. Just get big, don't lose, then chase/eat people. You've even got a billion item choices now. Can't go wrong.
Yeah, that's basically my mindset in the jungle. I usually don't gank without red, but I like counterjungling a lot as well. How early do you think Dragon should be started? For me, whenever I get devourer, I try to kill the enemy jungler/send them back to base and rush dragon. Do you think that time would be better spent ganking/farming? And how do you feel about Titanic Hydra and Steraks Gage? (Haven't tried either of those on Shyvana yet). What item do I get if they have heavy AP? I feel Spirit VIsage is wasted on Shyvana
If it's up, I'll try to get dragon immediately after finishing Devourer. Should basically be your focus every time. 5 stacks is worth more than farming, usually. Gank bot if possible into rushing drag.
Titanic feels really good, but I'm undecided. Seems to incentivize skipping BotRK and being a big tank quickly. You'll still do a lot of damage, but no ohko ult into Q-E they're dead potential without BotRK. But then maybe you'd just go Cinderhulk instead. Which I think is still a legit option for bad games where you have to be a tank. I don't think I'd ever go both BotRK and Titanic. It's really squishy. I think I'd probably just get Cleaver if I were getting a second damage item.
Sterak's is pretty underwhelming when I've tried it. You're not getting a ton out of the base AD. The shield is nice for a last item though, especially if you're really dependent on diving.
For AP, I get an early Maw, usually. At least a Hexdrinker. Very efficient. If it's a lot of AP, Wit's End is actually legit and is a lot of mixed damage, but Visage is better. CDR is decent, BotRK healing is underrated. If it's poke, Warmog's/SV is insane.
Don't really see anoyne except reksai build it. Even on her only sometimes. Think it is underrated but there just aren't any people who build it and I don't play champs that would to try it out.
On September 13 2015 02:36 Slusher wrote: Do people like titanic? Seems like a weird item to me that fills a niche that sunfire and (r)hydra fill better depending on your role
I think it's really nice for bruiser junglers like Jarvan, but tends to be a later item. Tiamat is way too expensive in the jungle early unless you're snowballing imo.
I have a hard time figuring out who I would want that on. I'm guessing someone that likes going tanky but wants a single damage item? Haven't seen it personally
On September 13 2015 00:10 Skitter wrote: Yeah, that's basically my mindset in the jungle. I usually don't gank without red, but I like counterjungling a lot as well. How early do you think Dragon should be started? For me, whenever I get devourer, I try to kill the enemy jungler/send them back to base and rush dragon. Do you think that time would be better spent ganking/farming? And how do you feel about Titanic Hydra and Steraks Gage? (Haven't tried either of those on Shyvana yet). What item do I get if they have heavy AP? I feel Spirit VIsage is wasted on Shyvana
i only get visage if they have double fed APs otherwise maw
On September 13 2015 00:10 Skitter wrote: Yeah, that's basically my mindset in the jungle. I usually don't gank without red, but I like counterjungling a lot as well. How early do you think Dragon should be started? For me, whenever I get devourer, I try to kill the enemy jungler/send them back to base and rush dragon. Do you think that time would be better spent ganking/farming? And how do you feel about Titanic Hydra and Steraks Gage? (Haven't tried either of those on Shyvana yet). What item do I get if they have heavy AP? I feel Spirit VIsage is wasted on Shyvana
i only get visage if they have double fed APs otherwise maw
why does that make sense wtf visage gives hp and a very slight sustain so its better against comps without 2xAPs since the hp helps against everything and having a hp+mr item is the best way to make bursting you down with their mid laner infeasible maw isn't that amazing on shyv anyway but spirit+maw would be good vs lots of ap . locket is good yea but it sucks you if you're going to forget to use the active
On September 13 2015 00:10 Skitter wrote: Yeah, that's basically my mindset in the jungle. I usually don't gank without red, but I like counterjungling a lot as well. How early do you think Dragon should be started? For me, whenever I get devourer, I try to kill the enemy jungler/send them back to base and rush dragon. Do you think that time would be better spent ganking/farming? And how do you feel about Titanic Hydra and Steraks Gage? (Haven't tried either of those on Shyvana yet). What item do I get if they have heavy AP? I feel Spirit VIsage is wasted on Shyvana
i only get visage if they have double fed APs otherwise maw
why does that make sense wtf visage gives hp and a very slight sustain so its better against comps without 2xAPs since the hp helps against everything and having a hp+mr item is the best way to make bursting you down with their mid laner infeasible maw isn't that amazing on shyv anyway but spirit+maw would be good vs lots of ap . locket is good yea but it sucks you if you're going to forget to use the active
if they don't have 2 APs you don't need the sustain or life, you get deadmans and maw to kill things faster
Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them. "Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think? It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote: Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them. "Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think? It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare.
On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote: Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them. "Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think? It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare.
your job is to kill things not to tank.
if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities
On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote: Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them. "Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think? It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare.
your job is to kill things not to tank.
if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities
that is the best way of doing it, if you kill them you don't have to escape. if it's unfavorable you have exhaust and you can ult over a wall and run away really fast.
On September 13 2015 08:24 Slayer91 wrote: Deadmans and Maw are two items, I think it's unfair to compare spirit visage both of them. "Need" is a silly word to use in this kind of context. It's cost versus benefit. Typically we see shyvana with sated+botrk having probably the strongest 1v1 damage in the game at 2 items and getting the single best item to avoid being burst down in midgame (spirit visage or locket) makes a lot of sense don't you think? It's rare that melees get away with more than 1 damage item especially one with no kind of cc or reliable hard gap closer and its one of the reasons shyvana relies on getting super farmed.
After that you'd probably expect that you are still fairly squishy and the adc is becoming more relevant so then it makes sense to get a randuins or deadmans.
you get more than 1 damage item to hard carry, that is the shyvana play style. if you are getting bursted then deadmans plate is good and immediately follow up with hexdrinker->maw. it'll give you way more than enough stats to live because dragon gives you more free stats. if you really really have to you could get away with giants belt ->hex drinker but the situations that i've had to actually do that are extremely rare.
your job is to kill things not to tank.
if only that worked for melee champions with no escape abilities
that is the best way of doing it, if you kill them you don't have to escape. if it's unfavorable you have exhaust and you can ult over a wall and run away really fast.
A champion like Shyvana has to do damage to be a threat. There has to be a reason why the enemy is worried you're in their backline, and its not gonna be that sick Shyvana CC.
At the same time, you have to be able to get onto people in the first place, so you have to find some happy medium between damage and tank.
But you have to build some damage or people can just go lol and ignore you while they kill the rest of your team.
Well I am assuming he goes sated+bork first 2 items and no going more damage after that is just straight up bad unless you are smurfing OR you have lulu+orianna on your team or some other retarded shit like that.
Every time I see shyvana she just gets ccd and killed cuz they get greedy and build damage.
On September 13 2015 09:08 nafta wrote: Well I am assuming he goes sated+bork first 2 items and no going more damage after that is just straight up bad unless you are smurfing OR you have lulu+orianna on your team or some other retarded shit like that.
Every time I see shyvana she just gets ccd and killed cuz they get greedy and build damage.
maw and cleaver are totally okay at that point, she gets free armor and mr
people who build banshees on melees are quickly disciplined by the rod of the nami w bounce and left crying for another 30 seconds upon which another bounce will hit you from the wraith camp
Ex on Shyv is so meh. All-in on damage on an unreliable melee before you even know how the game's going to go, too risky for me. You fall behind, hope you can 1v1/split and the rest of their team can't kill you. You go blue smite anyway, slows don't stack. Maybe I just overrate Flash.
Your job is still to deal damage, regardless. It's just a matter of who you're fighting. Mixed %health damage is a dream situation into tanks, particularly if you've got the luxury of getting Cleaver. And you do have probably top-3 two-item damage in a 1v1 midgame.
On September 13 2015 09:10 Ketara wrote: Why would you get visage over banshee on Shyvana BTW?
Seems like banshee on her would be pretigud. She doesn't have any built in sustain so visage isn't high value.
You're getting BotRK 9/10 games, and CDR is actually really good on her.
2 things happen at this point either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.
I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
2 things happen at this point either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.
I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
shyv is extremely mobile wtf she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.
in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.
if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.
the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.
shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.
Okay I don't want to like, make Shyvana build suggestions because I don't play her.
But in general if you aren't getting much from the Visage sustain, Locket outperforms VIsage.
Assuming you're not giving anybody else the shield or MR aura at all, Locket gives you: 745 HP 35 MR 10% CDR
While Visage gives you: 400 HP 60 MR 10% CDR
Looking at Shyvana, who gets a bunch of resistances from being a dragon lady, her EHP with these two items against magic comes out looking something like:
Locket - 5259
Visage - 5037
(This is just BS math without looking at runes or masteries or other items, I didn't go too heavily into it)
So Locket is performing slightly better against Magic, will perform blatantly better against Physical without having to do any math to show it, and can provide more defense for your team.
The Visage sustain boost has to be pretty high value in order for it to outperform, and on a champion with no built in sustain mechanics it's probably not. BotRK gives you 10% lifesteal.
Is +2% lifesteal worth the extra stuff Locket gives you?
Full disclosure: in my original suggestion for MR builds, I forgot locket existed! Woops.
I'd still rather somebody else get it because Shyv is selfish and you're getting it third item at best, but if you must, yes, it is by far the best defensive item in the game. For everyone I can think of off the top of my head, actually. SV/Maw are your next best options assuming your top or tanky support was a nice guy and got it for you. I was just arguing against BV.
Fights with big melee dps are more complicated than who kills carries first, btw. Removing the frontline as Shyv, particularly with one of Morde/Darius/Garen/other melees on your side is a totally legit option and wins fights/objectives. Shyv is more teamfight/objective oriented than the majority of real splitpushers unless you're far ahead.
My point is that even if somebody else has it, its self only stats outperform visage.
Not to mention if somebody else has it its probably the support and unless that support is Leona its likely you two aren't overlapping auras. It's 1100 range on the MR aura and only 600 range on the shield.
If we're rating the shield that highly, Maw's trades 1k gold in EHP (sort of; it's magic only, but this is all only vs notable AP anyway, and like I said, you teamfight or you're far ahead, build damage, and kill people. Damage like Maw.) and 10% CDR for 2k-3k gold of AD. I do rate Maw highly.
The Locket shield should be rated highly. It should be rated even higher since it was changed.
Comparing the Maw shield to the Locket shield is unfair. Maw is extremely cost efficient in a best case scenario. 400 HP, 40 MR, and an "average" of 85 AD all for 3200g is ridiculously strong.
But the thing about Maw is that you're not always going to get a best case scenario. The best case scenario is conditional on the assumption that you're getting burst below 30% HP and taking lots of magic damage. There are enemy team comps where it'll be more likely than others, but even against double AP it's very possible that their two APs will focus your team, you'll be fighting their ADC+Support, and you'll get no value from the shield.
The Locket shield should be giving you full value in essentially 100% of situations.
I'm not saying that Maw is bad mind, just that doing a straight up comparison between the two items is unfair. Maw has to be compared in the context of the individual situation in which it is present.
But yes, why does Locket still exist. Even after the defensive item changes which slightly nerfed Locket and slightly buffed SV/Banshee, it's still the best MR item in the game, and is a totally reasonable buy even in "selfish" scenarios.
PS: I could make a long post about how in general Banshee's Veil is better than Spirit Visage too, but that would be conditional on you not needing the CDR.
Basically your pure defensive MR item flowchart is like this.
1 - Does your team need MR aura? Yes - Locket No - Go to 2
2 - Do you have crazy heals and sustain built into your kit (Vlad, Mundo, Warwick etc) Yes - Visage No - Go to 3
People would buy Maw a lot more if they didn't think so hard about the additional AD at lower health. The AD on it is crazy efficient even at perfectly average health levels for a fight. The 'problem' is shield CD/value. But it's not actually that long. If you're going to be killing people and are against AP, it's crucial. There's a reason a lot of ADCs are even opting into it. And it's perfectly legit to go for it as late third offensive item on Darius if necessary (though SV is fucking insane on him now so l0l), MR item on Riven/Fiora, and so on.
Side note/locket whine: 2 seconds for Locket shield is probably too long. Really ought to just fall off quickly over the duration like Sterak's. Actually, every primarily reactive shield should to reward actually being reactive and not trivial prep work, but that's a different discussion/thread maybe.
At least all the additional mixed items gave us a lot more choices for damage, even if the pure tank choices are more clear-cut than they have been this whole season.
On September 13 2015 10:35 Ketara wrote: The Locket shield should be rated highly. It should be rated even higher since it was changed.
Comparing the Maw shield to the Locket shield is unfair. Maw is extremely cost efficient in a best case scenario. 400 HP, 40 MR, and an "average" of 85 AD all for 3200g is ridiculously strong.
But the thing about Maw is that you're not always going to get a best case scenario. The best case scenario is conditional on the assumption that you're getting burst below 30% HP and taking lots of magic damage. There are enemy team comps where it'll be more likely than others, but even against double AP it's very possible that their two APs will focus your team, you'll be fighting their ADC+Support, and you'll get no value from the shield.
The Locket shield should be giving you full value in essentially 100% of situations.
I'm not saying that Maw is bad mind, just that doing a straight up comparison between the two items is unfair. Maw has to be compared in the context of the individual situation in which it is present.
But yes, why does Locket still exist. Even after the defensive item changes which slightly nerfed Locket and slightly buffed SV/Banshee, it's still the best MR item in the game, and is a totally reasonable buy even in "selfish" scenarios.
PS: I could make a long post about how in general Banshee's Veil is better than Spirit Visage too, but that would be conditional on you not needing the CDR.
Basically your pure defensive MR item flowchart is like this.
1 - Does your team need MR aura? Yes - Locket No - Go to 2
2 - Do you have crazy heals and sustain built into your kit (Vlad, Mundo, Warwick etc) Yes - Visage No - Go to 3
3 - Do you need CDR? Yes - Locket No - Banshee
The Legion aura change wasn't done to make Locket bad, it was to make Aegis less strong since now it "only" negates sorc boots pen instead of doing that and then some.
2 things happen at this point either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.
I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
shyv is extremely mobile wtf she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.
in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.
if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.
the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.
shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.
her w isn't that great for mobility if you don't auto to keep it going. her dash is an ultimate ability and its slow moving and easy to juke. it's not bad but if you want to escape from a 3-4-5 man gank it's nothing compared to udyr e or something. I can rephrase the next paragraph "there's this weird relationship in the game where if your gold>their gold you'll probably win regardless of build" "the problem is never going to be that you're not tanky enough" right. so you've never lost a teamfight because you didn't die. you only lost a teamfight because the enemy team killed your team. your teams fault in the end i got you.
honestly it just sounds like you're on a winstreak and thinking about how easy the game is when you get ahead why even talk about builds we win the game anyway lelelele how about your team is losing and their team is controlling the jungle and pushing mid you have only 2 or 3 items how do you win the game.
2 things happen at this point either you're far enough ahead it doesn't matter and you can 1v3 or better OR you have to go split
except shyvana is a weak split pusher in the sense that she lacks mobility and tower killing power (like a bad nasus basically) and if you're far ahead then you can win the teamfights by building tank items anyway also it can be unreliable to try to win the game before lategame on a champ who can't gank at all early game.
I mean if the top laner is strong enough to defend with TP you don't have much you can do and it's still not that hard to gank you.
shyv is extremely mobile wtf she has a massive dash that can counteract some forms of CC and one of the highest movespeeds with her W on.
in fact the reasons for which you pick shyv is that she exerts tons of map pressure from running around and clearing fast with W. she also happens to be one of the hardest scaling melee characters in the game right now which makes her an exceptional duelist.
if you're far ahead you don't need any more tank items. there's this weird relationship in the game where if you have a level and item advantage and your damage > their damage you can get away on 1.5-2 tank items.
the problem with team fights at the end of the game for shyv is never going to be that you aren't tanky enough. it's that you/your team is incapable of killing their biggest damage threats before they kill yours. if this happens then you either pick better fights or lose the game.
shyv tends to be a very snowbally character. if she gets ahead you can choke out the enemy jungler and 3 hit carries. the hardest part of playing the character is knowing when to fight and how to maximize your damage.
her w isn't that great for mobility if you don't auto to keep it going. her dash is an ultimate ability and its slow moving and easy to juke. it's not bad but if you want to escape from a 3-4-5 man gank it's nothing compared to udyr e or something. I can rephrase the next paragraph "there's this weird relationship in the game where if your gold>their gold you'll probably win regardless of build" "the problem is never going to be that you're not tanky enough" right. so you've never lost a teamfight because you didn't die. you only lost a teamfight because the enemy team killed your team. your teams fault in the end i got you.
honestly it just sounds like you're on a winstreak and thinking about how easy the game is when you get ahead why even talk about builds we win the game anyway lelelele how about your team is losing and their team is controlling the jungle and pushing mid you have only 2 or 3 items how do you win the game.
how am i blaming my team in any way?
you watch the mini map, starve their jungler and counter gank to get yourself more ahead. if you are losing teamfights you could've played better to win it. you're gonna be 3 hitting carries. damage > tank stats on late game shyv. the happy middle ground between glass cannon and full tank has been right around deadmans/randuins + maw. if i die during a teamfight then i picked a bad engage or didn't kill the right person.
as the jungler if you are losing the mid game then you could've done a lot more to make it so you weren't losing in the first place
i can more or less agree with that but then if you do all those things it doesnt matter what champion you build so saying its a strong build seems in accurate its more like it works if you have a winning advantage but so does everything
My point is he's just making the assumption that you're ahead enough to win regardless of build more or less and then advising full damage so you can kill people faster and thus win faster. You should generally choose the build that helps you win in as many situations as possible and the important ones are the ones where you're close to equal all the way down to losing and possible comeback.
It's quite naive to say something like if I die it was a bad engage when that may be true it may also be true that if you changed your build you could have won
now its extremely unlikely that the one build with heavy damage on a melee is the best one and if it is its even more unlikely that its the best one for all situations.
On September 14 2015 05:03 Slayer91 wrote: My point is he's just making the assumption that you're ahead enough to win regardless of build more or less and then advising full damage so you can kill people faster and thus win faster. You should generally choose the build that helps you win in as many situations as possible and the important ones are the ones where you're close to equal all the way down to losing and possible comeback.
It's quite naive to say something like if I die it was a bad engage when that may be true it may also be true that if you changed your build you could have won
now its extremely unlikely that the one build with heavy damage on a melee is the best one and if it is its even more unlikely that its the best one for all situations.
shyv's design is best suited to build more damage than tank items and resists. play to her strengths not her weaknesses and you win more
can you elaborate? I don't see why shyvanas kit is best suited to build more damgae than tank items. I'd argue the opposite wit the high base damages low mobility you know
On September 14 2015 05:16 Slayer91 wrote: can you elaborate? I don't see why shyvanas kit is best suited to build more damgae than tank items. I'd argue the opposite wit the high base damages low mobility you know
so her W, E and Q all give her extremely fast jungle clearing ability. this naturally gives her more gold to work with than junglers like lee sin or gragas. she also gets 40 free MR and armor in dragon form. this means that for defensive stats you want slightly more health than resists. which makes deadmans OR randuins and cleaver perfect items for her. the magic resist thing has been beaten to death already but i think that maw > the other stuff because of the damage. if you have a ton of gold and are naturally tanky this means that you are best suited to get more damage. especially provided that you have limited CC and other ways to make yourself a threat.
and i still don't understand this concept that shyv is a low mobility champion. yes she doesn't have a low cool down dash, but she has one very long range one and 50% bonus movespeed from burnout. move speed quints + phage = out running everything.
On September 14 2015 05:16 Slayer91 wrote: can you elaborate? I don't see why shyvanas kit is best suited to build more damgae than tank items. I'd argue the opposite wit the high base damages low mobility you know
so her W, E and Q all give her extremely fast jungle clearing ability. this naturally gives her more gold to work with than junglers like lee sin or gragas. she also gets 40 free MR and armor in dragon form. this means that for defensive stats you want slightly more health than resists. which makes deadmans OR randuins and cleaver perfect items for her. the magic resist thing has been beaten to death already but i think that maw > the other stuff because of the damage. if you have a ton of gold and are naturally tanky this means that you are best suited to get more damage. especially provided that you have limited CC and other ways to make yourself a threat.
and i still don't understand this concept that shyv is a low mobility champion. yes she doesn't have a low cool down dash, but she has one very long range one and 50% bonus movespeed from burnout. move speed quints + phage = out running everything.
having more gold doesn't necessarily mean you want to spend it on damage, a shyvana with sated devourer can kill an adc in a few seconds anyway if she gets in range for long enough to do it.
On September 14 2015 05:30 nafta wrote: Well when you play vs good players who cancel it and just slow you and run away you will understand.
if you're getting your ult canceled, then you are using it incorrectly. it works kind similarly to trist jump and hec ult. this means that you can be in the animation while being CC'd and it you only get stunned or whatever for a little bit after the dash part. you still get the knock back and damage from the dash to connect despite being CC'd
On September 14 2015 05:33 Fildun wrote: The Shyvanas in my game also don't have that much more gold than the average jungler, sure they might farm a bit more but the opposing junglers usually has a couple kill/assists more.
that means they aren't farming enough. shyv should be matching or exceeding the ADC in gold
The Shyvanas in my game also don't have that much more gold than the average jungler, sure they might farm a bit more but the opposing junglers usually has a couple kill/assists more.
On September 14 2015 05:30 nafta wrote: Well when you play vs good players who cancel it and just slow you and run away you will understand.
if you're getting your ult canceled, then you are using it incorrectly. it works kind similarly to trist jump and hec ult. this means that you can be in the animation while being CC'd and it you only get stunned or whatever for a little bit after the dash part. you still get the knock back and damage from the dash to connect despite being CC'd
Either you ult in and get CC'd or you don't ult in and are useless. That's basically the scenarios I see in my games, I've never seen a Shyvana be useful in teamfights and they aren't that good at splitting either, mostly because they don't have TP and teams don't know how to play with splitpushers.
On September 14 2015 05:30 nafta wrote: Well when you play vs good players who cancel it and just slow you and run away you will understand.
if you're getting your ult canceled, then you are using it incorrectly. it works kind similarly to trist jump and hec ult. this means that you can be in the animation while being CC'd and it you only get stunned or whatever for a little bit after the dash part. you still get the knock back and damage from the dash to connect despite being CC'd
On September 14 2015 05:33 Fildun wrote: The Shyvanas in my game also don't have that much more gold than the average jungler, sure they might farm a bit more but the opposing junglers usually has a couple kill/assists more.
that means they aren't farming enough. shyv should be matching or exceeding the ADC in gold
I know how cc works doesn't change the fact that most popular champs have a way of interrupting it.
When I open champion.gg 9 out of the 10 most played champs have at least 1 way to interrupt your jump.
Also when you are ccd and cant keep autoing your w goes on cd and then you just kited. Like I have seen so many shyvanas try what you are explaining here and it never works. Not even exclusive to this season only.
More gold usually means you should buy more efficient items. Shit like Cleaver/Titanic/Maw. Hybrid items in general offer more gold value, and a lot more of them exist than ever before. If you're 1.5k gold ahead, and they're already having trouble killing you, Shyv's an AD champ who gets a ton of value out of Aspd (particularly with Devourer) and AD and can easily stay in range long enough to get a lot of value if you get DMP. And you have free resists. Or just kill tanks, in which case bruiser items>tank items when you're Shyv because lol %health devourer mixed damage BotRK.
Shyv is a teamfight champion. There's no point to all that farming if you're just splitting and not defending skirmishes and taking objectives.
i don't know how well post rework garen scales into late game. i think jax is about the best comparison i can make. you get lots of free tank stats and scale really hard into the end game. you're good at killing carries and being a very high damage threat.
On September 14 2015 07:55 Ketara wrote: But Jax scales a lot better than Shyvana and Shyvana has a much better early game.
Jax also has more gapclosers and more CC.
jungle shyv low levels are terrible. her kit is designed to get her ahead by ~30 minutes then from that point you just kill things and win i said they are similar, both have crazy good lategame scaling and probably team fight/play late game very similarly.
it's like you aren't going in to CC everything and tank a lot of damage, you have so-so burst, but you go in to threaten and kill the enemy's carries
I mean, there's differences, but how you're playing is pretty similar. You're starting fights jumping in and chunking somebody, you're a lot better if you get a lot of attacks off. Fights are a lot nicer if they're 3v3 instead of 5v5 or if you're not the focus.
Jax has more tools but needs more items. Shyvana also comes out of the jungle which is a perk of its own that isn't really considered right now because I consider Jungle Jax really meh.
I don't think Shyv's lategame is anything compared to Jax's.
On September 14 2015 08:05 Ketara wrote: Yeah a 6 item Jax is soooooooooo much better than a 6 item Shyvana.
yeah, but they fill the same role on a team in the late game, which is what you are playing for on shyv. i don't know if there is a term for this class of character or not, it's like a bruiser that scales into late game/better with gold.
irelia might be another comparison but she can get more defensive items because she gets lots of free true damage.
It's a juggernaut, but classes are fluid. Or dumb, in the case of bruiser/adc.
Irelia is a bad champion. Like if you diluted Jax and a generic assassin. Can't be a point of comparison. Compare Shyv/Jax to each other or to Garen or Fiora or other melee dps. Maybe Gnar.
the point is you give shyv gold so she can build more damage while only on 1.5-2 tank items. anything more and you just aren't threatening to anybody.
if you build too tanky you run into these issues where your shyvs aren't doing anything meaningful in the late game. i think it's better to try and cut defensive stats and compensate with how you play then it is to buy more tank stats and be incapable of doing enough damage when you need it.
Isn't there Shyv's ability to TP or just run aside and flank people too, with her ult? Jax is stickier when teams are too tanky/with too much peeling for people to die during the initial round of cooldowns/initiation, but even if he flanks him going EQ on someone isn't the same as Shyv just showing up behind you and Ring you toward her team.
Shyvanna generally two-three shots an ADC pretty damn fast with Frolo's build. The fact that people say she can't do anything in a teamfight is more of a sign that you're building her wrong and not playing to her strength at all. Shyvanna is actually a terrible frontline tank because she offers pretty much nothing but damage with innate survivability. Instead, it's better to use her R as a gapcloser to their backline and wreck their face in two-three hits.
On September 14 2015 17:22 Fildun wrote: But how are you ever gonna close the gap to their carries with just your ult? If that's the case the enemy team is doing something horribly wrong.
? Shyv's ultimate is pretty long range for an immediate gap closer. I mean, if you see it coming in advance, a carry can stay away from the knockup, but combined with her W MS, she can get to the backline reasonably well.
Shyvanna generally two-three shots an ADC pretty damn fast with Frolo's build.
What's Frolo's build? I skimmed the last few pages and couldn't find it.
On September 14 2015 17:22 Fildun wrote: But how are you ever gonna close the gap to their carries with just your ult? If that's the case the enemy team is doing something horribly wrong.
? Shyv's ultimate is pretty long range for an immediate gap closer. I mean, if you see it coming in advance, a carry can stay away from the knockup, but combined with her W MS, she can get to the backline reasonably well.
Shyvanna generally two-three shots an ADC pretty damn fast with Frolo's build.
What's Frolo's build? I skimmed the last few pages and couldn't find it.
Your ult is basically Flash range, especially because they can run away while you're in the animation. That's often not enough to get to their carries.
I'd go DMP over Randuin I'd say a majority of the time. Speed is too good.
Cleaver is great because CDR/Health/AD/movespeed is her ideal item, but it's replaceable with Thornmail/Warmog's/Hydra depending on how the game is going and what you're doing.
You can also do ridiculous things like Cinderhulk/Titanic/Mallet if you're going to have to be tanky, but I wouldn't call it ideal.
On September 14 2015 17:22 Fildun wrote: But how are you ever gonna close the gap to their carries with just your ult? If that's the case the enemy team is doing something horribly wrong.
? Shyv's ultimate is pretty long range for an immediate gap closer. I mean, if you see it coming in advance, a carry can stay away from the knockup, but combined with her W MS, she can get to the backline reasonably well.
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
well as you can tell from this thread the majority of bruiser players play like retards so it is actually a very real niche. Even pros can be seen stupidly tunnelling the backline often on champs that will never accomplish anything doing so.
The only situation its not a niche in is if your team cannot be peeled for, say graves adc and talon mid. there is nothing to protect anyway so you just dive with the rest of your team and hope CC gets used elsewhere. This is actually most likely the situation where you want to build tankier and just soak damage and build disruption items like randuins. Otherwise in the first scenario id be leaning toward more dmg since you wont be the one focused.
On September 14 2015 17:22 Fildun wrote: But how are you ever gonna close the gap to their carries with just your ult? If that's the case the enemy team is doing something horribly wrong.
? Shyv's ultimate is pretty long range for an immediate gap closer. I mean, if you see it coming in advance, a carry can stay away from the knockup, but combined with her W MS, she can get to the backline reasonably well.
Shyvanna generally two-three shots an ADC pretty damn fast with Frolo's build.
What's Frolo's build? I skimmed the last few pages and couldn't find it.
Your ult is basically Flash range, especially because they can run away while you're in the animation. That's often not enough to get to their carries.
If by "basically Flash range", you mean over twice the range of Flash. Have you even played Shyvanna recently? In a team fight, Shyvanna can cover quite a bit of distance between her R and W.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
like, what i'm trying to explain is how to get the most use out of the character. if you do anything less you end up with all these shyv players that don't have much impact on the game.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. The jungle is easy enough to clear that you arent going to get super ahead by just farming, you just see a lot of shitty junglers sitting around doing nothing for long amounts of time then they get 2 levels behind. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. just from the AoE damage of burnout and movespeed alone, nasus shouldn't be keeping up.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
its because shyvana's 1-6 is faster but nasus 7-11 is insanely fast, just has a slow first clear.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm.
also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good.
if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm.
also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good.
if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU.
and I dont see any season where you have a substantial amount of shyvana games, so different account or something?
On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote: how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm.
also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good.
if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU.
go play the reverse matchup for yourself. it's highly probable that your experiences are just because the enemy shyv players don't have a strong grasp of how to play this type of jungler. it makes sense coming right off of the warrior + heavy gank oriented then cinderhulk + tank trends that we've had this season.
shyv is my 4th most played character right behind kat, anivia and hecarim. vi is a close 5th. literally all i did from may-july was learn how to play carry junglers on shyv. i then took what i learned on shyv and switched to hecarim and have really good stats this season.
On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote: [quote] Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus).
this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal.
you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up.
are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights?
because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight.
also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus.
actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm.
also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good.
if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU.
go play the reverse matchup for yourself. it's highly probable that your experiences are just because the enemy shyv players don't have a strong grasp of how to play this type of jungler. it makes sense coming right off of the warrior + heavy gank oriented then cinderhulk + tank trends that we've had this season.
shyv is my 4th most played character right behind kat, anivia and hecarim. vi is a close 5th. literally all i did from may-july was learn how to play carry junglers on shyv.
How will he find this reverse MU? Finding a Nasus in a game is like finding a unicorn that shoots lightning from its ass.
I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way.
There is only one jungler that can outfarm nasus and that is skarner because hes broken. Honestly with that champion you can outlevel everyone in the game by 2 levels if done properly, no one else can do that.
On September 15 2015 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote: I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way.
i think that this right here is the problem. shyv will start to bleed into the enemy jungle and tax lanes because she has a better AoE ability, better escape ability and higher movespeed than nasus. what i'm having a hard time understanding is how nasus can both clear individual camps and walk between them faster than burnout lets shyv
if you are struggling with skarner might i ask specifically what skarner is doing to out farm you that shyv could not also be doing for the same reasons? in my experiences they clear at about the same rate.
On September 15 2015 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote: I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way.
i think that this right here is the problem. shyv will start to bleed into the enemy jungle and tax lanes because she has a better AoE ability, better escape ability and higher movespeed than nasus.
if you are struggling with skarner might i ask specifically what skarner is doing to out farm you that shyv could not also be doing for the same reasons? in my experiences they clear at about the same rate.
im fine being behind a level if they tax lanes, because that just means we are up levels somewhere else. but on a pure jungle clearing perspective there is no way shyvana ever gets ahead. (meaning all lanes are equal and somehow shyv is ahead in levels of me, impossible)
now skarner, i play this champ a lot as well so i know his strengths and weaknesses but it doesnt really matter in this MU. he will go into your jungle and get his crystals and just start dominating your jungle since his dueling is insane even for nasus standards. He has 2 long stuns/suppresses at level 6 rendering a mid/jungle skirmish 2v2 a complete wash for your side. There is zero way you can ever compete against him. even if he doesnt invade he clears faster ESPECIALLY once he gets sheen/devourer core he can clear the jungle in such insane speed its ridiculous.
Shyvana on the other hand has levels 1-5 to make any sort of impact on nasus' jungle because level 7 and beyond she isn't stronger then nasus in a 1v1/2v2.
edit - if you burnout between camps then you dont have burnout for the actual camp. nasus makes up for this at any rate with early phage, I always go upgraded jungle item ---> phage
EPT
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