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Certain topics are blacklisted from Patch Discussion and they include: - "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
- "What is a tank" (and other vague monikers)
- Unjustified game theory / speculative discussion about the game
- Champion balance and game design discussion
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On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv.
doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
its because shyvana's 1-6 is faster but nasus 7-11 is insanely fast, just has a slow first clear.
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Isn't the whole "kiteable" thing the reason why you just try to flank as Shyvana instead of running at them from the front?
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On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever
then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
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On September 15 2015 03:26 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever.
not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
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On September 15 2015 03:27 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:26 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever. not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience...
i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse.
i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm.
also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good.
if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
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On September 15 2015 03:30 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:27 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:26 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever. not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience... i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm. also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good. if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically.
you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU.
and I dont see any season where you have a substantial amount of shyvana games, so different account or something?
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On September 15 2015 03:34 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:30 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:27 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:26 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:On September 15 2015 02:11 VayneAuthority wrote:
how the hell do people see shyvana as a back line diver? she was basically tailor made to destroy bruisers that are attacking YOUR backline. She has limited CC and would get kited to shit, and she has percent health damage. Its the same reason diving as nasus is a terrible idea and i would never pick nasus if they dont have some sort of AA based bruiser like jax/irelia/warwick/fiora/etc Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever. not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience... i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm. also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good. if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically. you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU.
go play the reverse matchup for yourself. it's highly probable that your experiences are just because the enemy shyv players don't have a strong grasp of how to play this type of jungler. it makes sense coming right off of the warrior + heavy gank oriented then cinderhulk + tank trends that we've had this season.
shyv is my 4th most played character right behind kat, anivia and hecarim. vi is a close 5th. literally all i did from may-july was learn how to play carry junglers on shyv. i then took what i learned on shyv and switched to hecarim and have really good stats this season.
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On September 15 2015 03:37 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:34 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:30 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:27 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:26 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:22 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:20 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 03:18 VayneAuthority wrote:On September 15 2015 03:03 Frolossus wrote:On September 15 2015 02:28 cLutZ wrote:
[quote]
Because that is a niche that isn't real. If you win like that, you are way ahead, or the enemy is making poor engages (diving as Nasus). this is the whole thing though. you play shyv to get yourself ahead. you SHOULD be ahead if you are playing her properly. as a result this way of playing is the most optimal. you want the enemy to try and peel you to the best of their ability. you're either gonna win the fight outright or they are gonna have to use everything to stop you and you are still gonna chunk everything down which leaves your team to clean up. are you the type of player that says WTF WHOLE TEAM ON ME HOW WE LOSE !!!1 after fights? because in that situation the enemy team just kites you back while your carries do no damage since they are out of range and you accomplish absolutely nothing. I see this a lot at diamond which is infuriating to watch when you get the typical riven/irelia/etc main that i basically have to give up top to or they will feed. they can lane fine but have zero idea how to teamfight. also shyvana farms pretty much at the same speed as jungle nasus so take that as what you will. I think the idea that shyvana "gets ahead" is based on simply poor diamond level play. She isn't super fast by any means. I dont even go rangers on nasus. actually no i'm not that type of player at all. if you played with me you'd just get carried really hard from the jungle. i can't possibly imagine a nasus outpacing a jungle shyv. doesnt outpace, they farm at the exact same rate. played this jungle MU a million times. always same level same farm give or take 5-10 cs depending on one of us farming a lane that died or whatever then you are doing something wrong. i can't tell you what it is without watching replays or VODs but that shouldn't be happening, ever. not sure where your getting off on being some god shyvana player with 3-2 in ranked and your most recent game an 0-4 loss but tone down the condescending when i have 300+ nasus games on this season alone lol. I would venture to say I have more experience... i played exclusively shyv as my jungler until the sated patch hit and made her worse. i definitely have enough experience to make these claims. go play the matchup as shyv instead of nasus and actively try to outfarm. also that loss in my match history was because we had 2 DCs for about 1/4 of the game. but you know taking things out of context to try and make yourself look good. if you wanna look at ranked stats that matter, look at my hecarim stats because i play both characters almost identically. you dont understand the point, I play against shyvana a lot because its a popular character, how often do you play against jungle nasus? I don't see why it isnt obvious that I would have more experience in this MU. go play the reverse matchup for yourself. it's highly probable that your experiences are just because the enemy shyv players don't have a strong grasp of how to play this type of jungler. it makes sense coming right off of the warrior + heavy gank oriented then cinderhulk + tank trends that we've had this season. shyv is my 4th most played character right behind kat, anivia and hecarim. vi is a close 5th. literally all i did from may-july was learn how to play carry junglers on shyv.
How will he find this reverse MU? Finding a Nasus in a game is like finding a unicorn that shoots lightning from its ass.
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I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way.
There is only one jungler that can outfarm nasus and that is skarner because hes broken. Honestly with that champion you can outlevel everyone in the game by 2 levels if done properly, no one else can do that.
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hey man i did jungle nasus before it was op
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On September 15 2015 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote:
I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way.
i think that this right here is the problem.
shyv will start to bleed into the enemy jungle and tax lanes because she has a better AoE ability, better escape ability and higher movespeed than nasus.
what i'm having a hard time understanding is how nasus can both clear individual camps and walk between them faster than burnout lets shyv
if you are struggling with skarner might i ask specifically what skarner is doing to out farm you that shyv could not also be doing for the same reasons? in my experiences they clear at about the same rate.
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On September 15 2015 03:53 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote:
I mean i dont need to prove it to myself because i know the character in and out. I have the highest kills per game on nasus of the top 25 nasus on NA server, the highest gold per game, the highest winrate.
You seem to be more in doubt then I am, I have no reason to play the reverse MU because ive played it countless times in a diamond 3ish setting give or take where people are picking shyvana and trying to win in ranked.
I can spell it out right here.
I full clear gromp to golems and get level 4, this is the only point where nasus is slower then shyvana. after I buy jungle upgrade and boots or ruby I proceed to reclear the jungle gromp to golems again, gank or if no opportunity base again. After this 2nd buy and my current stacks shyvana will never outfarm me at this point.
if you opt for double jungle you dont get the level 4 but you can go for a scuttler so it honestly doesnt matter either way. i think that this right here is the problem. shyv will start to bleed into the enemy jungle and tax lanes because she has a better AoE ability, better escape ability and higher movespeed than nasus. if you are struggling with skarner might i ask specifically what skarner is doing to out farm you that shyv could not also be doing for the same reasons? in my experiences they clear at about the same rate.
im fine being behind a level if they tax lanes, because that just means we are up levels somewhere else. but on a pure jungle clearing perspective there is no way shyvana ever gets ahead. (meaning all lanes are equal and somehow shyv is ahead in levels of me, impossible)
now skarner, i play this champ a lot as well so i know his strengths and weaknesses but it doesnt really matter in this MU. he will go into your jungle and get his crystals and just start dominating your jungle since his dueling is insane even for nasus standards. He has 2 long stuns/suppresses at level 6 rendering a mid/jungle skirmish 2v2 a complete wash for your side. There is zero way you can ever compete against him. even if he doesnt invade he clears faster ESPECIALLY once he gets sheen/devourer core he can clear the jungle in such insane speed its ridiculous.
Shyvana on the other hand has levels 1-5 to make any sort of impact on nasus' jungle because level 7 and beyond she isn't stronger then nasus in a 1v1/2v2.
edit - if you burnout between camps then you dont have burnout for the actual camp. nasus makes up for this at any rate with early phage, I always go upgraded jungle item ---> phage
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We know burnout has like a 60% uptime with 0 CDR, right
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I liked this topic of conversation when it was talking about items and Shyvana builds.
Now it's gotten kinda lame.
Also has anybody been playing Lux since her winrate skyrocketed I still want feedback.
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I've played her a bunch and when I'm not playing her in 5's I've got a 90% winrate. She feels really good, unfortunately euros too heavy. :p
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United States37500 Posts
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EPT
