EPTPlease show math to back up your statements.
I'd like to see some math to show that a Nidalee with a first item Ludens is going to be outdamaged by a Nidalee with a first item Deathcap.
[Season 5] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 5
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Please show math to back up your statements. I'd like to see some math to show that a Nidalee with a first item Ludens is going to be outdamaged by a Nidalee with a first item Deathcap. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On March 25 2015 00:12 Ketara wrote: LS, in this thread, we actually try to prove the things we say. Please show math to back up your statements. Oh wait you did my bad. I GOTTA WATCH ANOTHER VIDEO geez LS is kicking my ass here. i can also confirm you repeatedly stating you like penis | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Pretty great. | ||
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ConanTroutman
Canada67 Posts
/offtopic | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The thing is though, as far as I'm aware, you don't just pounce on every spear as Nidalee. You throw spears until you're sure that your combo will kill the guy and then you dive in. I dunno. I don't play Nidalee. As much as I like dick waving and all this shit though, this really is the Lux thread, so if we're going to dick wave and do Ludens math, we should do dick waving Ludens math on Lux. And that's honestly even an easier argument for Ludens than Nidalee is, because you can argue all sorts of non damage stuff for Nidalee like Zhonyas or whatever, whereas Lux basically always goes 1st item CDR, 2nd item pure damage. So while I'd encourage LS to do a better job of backing up his argument with an actual mathematical analysis (and not just very silly examples of Leblanc getting in a 20 second fight with Shyvana), lets stick to Lux stuff in this thread. If we want to continue the Nidalee discussion lets move it to GD. I'll happily respond to Nidalee related posts there. And as far as Lux goes, Ludens is clearly and blatantly better than Deathcap. In regards to LS's video and how it pertains to Lux, he shows some 4 item Lux math (Athenes + Void + Ludens + Zhonya vs. Athenes + Void + Dcap + Zhonya), which would seem to indicate that a Dcap combo does 148 more damage than a Ludens combo. He ignores that Lux's passive is currently bugged, but that's fine I can ignore that too, I probably would if I was doing the same thing. His math also seems strange, I'm not sure if he's running AP blues in this math or something? Standard Runes/Masteries for that, counting a Dorans ring for the last item and level 18, would be 16+6+15+15+60+70+120+120, which = 422 AP, 447.32 with a dragon buff, but he has the Ludens build at 458 AP somehow. Even the Ludens to Dcap stuff he's listed is awkward, because if his Ludens build is 458 AP, his Dcap build (458 x 1.3) should be 595.4, but he has it as 595.8 His ratios are off too, for Q, 595.8 x 0.7 = 417.06, but he has it as 417.479. If you counted Havoc and Double Edged Sword, it'd actually be 436.015, so it can't be that either. And so on and so forth. I'd be really interested in seeing the level and exact build we're talking about here, because these numbers are basically all wrong and I'd like to go over them. But anyway, there's some less nitpicky issues with this example. For one, we're talking about a 4 item build that goes Athenes + Void (standard and obvious) and then either Ludens + Zhonya or Dcap + Zhonya. Realistically, you could also have Ludens + Dcap here, which would be the most damage. In many games on Lux Zhonya is not actually needed that quickly, the active is not very useful on her (she likes the armor though). So it's weird that this is the example used. Even back in the DFG days I would on occasion go Athenes + Void + Dcap + DFG on Lux, and get Zhonya as the last item, and Lux likes Ludens MUCH more than DFG. I would even argue that in many games the Ludens movespeed is a better defensive statistic for Lux than the Zhonya armor is, since so much of her defense is positioning, and when people get in her face late in the game it's likely that nothing will save her. A better example would be a 3 item timing, either Athene + Void + Ludens or Athene + Void + Deathcap. If he'd done that example it'd look a bit more like this, I'll use level 18 just to favor Deathcap a bit and make things easier on myself: Athenes + Void + Deathcap (6+16+15+60+70+120)x1.3 = 373.1 P = 74.62 Q = 261.17 W = 130.585 E = 223.68 R = 279.825 PQER = 839.295 Athenes + Void + Ludens (6+16+15+60+70+120) = 287 P = 57.4 Q = 200.9 W = 100.45 E = 172.2 R = 215.45 L = 143.05 Total = 789 So, when we get to 3 items, a Deathcap combo is outdamaging a Ludens combo by about 50 damage, supposing the AOE only hits one person. If you suppose the AOE hits 2 people, Ludens actually comes out ahead, since about 70 HP of the damage in the Deathcap combo is (more or less) single target. We can also see that Ludens comes out ahead in terms of sustained poke damage since so much of the increase in Deathcap is in the ult which is only going to be used once. I am admittedly ignoring shields here, but I don't think we want to bring that up, because if we really wanted to get nitpicky I could start talking about AOE damage vs. single target damage, or about how Ludens lets you do magical things like increase the AOE range of your E by letting you hit 1 champion with E in a siege, making Ludens proc on 4 people for like 600 total damage. But we can say this is mostly equal, which makes Ludens the stronger choice, because of the 7% movespeed, better build path and costing less. And we can see that if Ludens is better at 3 items, it's also better at 2 items or 1 item. This would beg the question of is Ludens + Athenes better than Void + Athenes, and is Ludens + Chalice better than Athenes + Morello or Athenes + NLR. These are good questions, and I actually haven't done the math for them yet. I'd likely guess that Ludens is better than Void, because it helps you CS while Void does not, and the damage values are likely similar unless targets have a lot of MR. As for Athenes vs. Ludens + Chalice, after my test games I'm actually leaning towards Athenes, but need to do math to verify that. But at the very VERY least, we can see that there are going to be cases for an early Ludens Echo in your games as Lux, which would seem to prove LS's premise that it's an altogether bad or noob trap item wrong. In his defense, I will say that I really doubt it's going to be an effective early buy on most champions, which is also what LS appears to be saying, I think we just disagree on which champions those are, of which Lux is certainly one. So, there we go, now we're having a healthy Lux discussion again, hooray! | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
As much as I like dick waving and all this shit though, this really is the Lux thread, so if we're going to dick wave and do Ludens math, we should do dick waving Ludens math on Lux. And that's honestly even an easier argument for Ludens than Nidalee is, because you can argue all sorts of non damage stuff for Nidalee like Zhonyas or whatever, whereas Lux basically always goes 1st item CDR, 2nd item pure damage. Thats alot of dick waving ketara | ||
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
This isn't even like a discussion, Ludens is not better at three items which the inven article shows(while ignoring W and passive) The lissandra tests showed best what happens with suboptimal AP ratios end up making Luden superior. Then you go on to say it builds better or whatever. Uh.. Aether Wisp 850 vs 860 blasting wand gold is not a huge difference and the recipe is negligable. You dont rush an early ludens because lux scales with cdr and then needs a power spike due to how her skills interract with cs'ing. Whether this be void staff ruehing due to gold effieciency and how the game is playing out or deathcap. I mean if you want to play the Luden's ricochet card then you can also hit people with said E or Q or R in which case deathcaps ramp rears its head even more. Not to mention the inarguable mathematics on percentage scaling in relation to damage vs MR. I mean you go on to say Deathcap outdamages but Luden does if it hits two people ?? If ludens is able to hit two people then you also argue in most instances youll hit your AoE, again making deathcap annihilate Ludens. In conclusion its amazing the sheer neglect for stuff or how you didnt even really look at the math, simply because youre trying to defend a factually incorrect statement, which you yourself havent even done math on properly. Opinionated theory has no place vs math in league Especially if "ideally" how something turns out if it means it has to bend to favor what you desire. All of this again, is not even considering W and Passive, which you cant just choose to ignore considering their AP is relevant and only have interraction with deathcap. About your original comment about "on these forums we discuss stuff", no its not much of a discussion when you dont even do the math on the stuff you talk about or entertain abstract reasoning or stuff . Instead choosing to preface an argument with a dislike for someone (as evident by your comments in the Annie tank thread and how you try to shut it down without doing any math or logical thinking). Lastly the Nidalee stuff, I don't know what to say man lol, if you can't see the math or why people on reddit dont even bring her up as a real candidate outside of the same theory ppl(myself included) gave TF then I'm pretty shocked. Before you call someone dumb over and over and simply are looking to get a circle jerk against said person simply cause it's TL(well, liquid legends now), it might help to not neglect things and actually do the math and game theory. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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ConanTroutman
Canada67 Posts
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Lost My Will To Live
Botswana601 Posts
Ketara - Stop being an ass to LS simply because you believe everything he says has absolutely zero merit. As I mentioned to LS above, if you want to disprove something, crunch the numbers. It's simple. Don't jump to conclusions and call him a fucking retard unprovoked. LS might be the devil in your eyes, but you don't need to talk down to him like he's Satan. I don't give a fuck about what you two do honestly, but lets disregard posting histories and personal histories when posting here again. If you want to settle things, you settle it with facts and not opinions. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Okay so, here's the best I can do at a reply to all this, since unfortunately I am not a paid analyst (ha!) and can't spend all night arguing over these sorts of things on the internet. LS says the following: What? In no world is Lux getting 20 seconds of free deal and procing Ludens 6 times in 20 seconds. The statistics alone try to give Ludens an unfair advantage and it still loses to deathcap (not even factoring in W or passive) The statistics that LS is talking about is this inven thread: http://www.inven.co.kr/board/powerbbs.php?come_idx=2766&l=36768 Which claims that, after 20 seconds of attacking this mythical Shyvana who stands still getting hit, proccing Ludens 4 times (not 6), Ludens actually does do more damage than Deathcap (40 more). LS in his video says that this 40 damage isn't worth the extra shield value that Deathcap would give you. So, LS is already contradicting himself, and has said in this thread both that Deathcap outdamages Ludens in his example, and that it does not. The example is bad in general because you really don't care how much damage you're gonna do to a Warmogs Visage Shyvana, you're not gonna kill them either way. I would have preferred a more realistic example. But we'll try to get to the bottom of this, don't worry. His second statement is also a contradiction to the actual article: This isn't even like a discussion, Ludens is not better at three items which the inven article shows(while ignoring W and passive) I suppose I should point out that I actually can't read Korean, and am basing this contradiction purely on LS's own proferred translation. The next statement: Then you go on to say it builds better or whatever. Uh.. Aether Wisp 850 vs 860 blasting wand gold is not a huge difference and the recipe is negligable. It's worth pointing out that the build path is better (though not by much), because one of LS's own statements against the item in his initial video was, and I quote: "The issue with this item is it has a pretty clunky build path. The reason that I say that it's clunky is because it contains needlessly large rod, which is the single most expensive item purchase in the game. When you have NLR inside of the item, that can be really difficult to get basically." I mean, this is true. NLR's can be annoying to buy. I'd love it if Riot would make NLR build out of Blasting Wand, that'd be cool. The problem here is that LS is advocating that you shouldn't buy Ludens because it has a "clunky" build path, but his statement of what you should buy instead is probably the only comparable item that has an even clunkier build path. So again, another contradiction. Next statement: You dont rush an early ludens because lux scales with cdr and then needs a power spike due to how her skills interract with cs'ing. Whether this be void staff ruehing due to gold effieciency and how the game is playing out or deathcap. I would actually disagree with the first part of this logic. What Lux scales with the most is actually mana regen. It just so happens that the big mana regen items also give CDR, and Lux tends to like CDR more than AP because her ratios are so low. It's entirely possible that a big AP item, if it were good enough, would be a better first item buy than Athenes. Probably the absolute best first item for Lux would be something that gave mana regen and Mpen, which unfortunately does not exist. But in general he's right, you really do want to get Athenes/Morello as your first item (I still haven't done any math to check and see if Ludens+Chalice is more efficient than Athenes, but Athenes is also getting buffed tomorrow so this might have to wait a little). The second part of the statement, talking about how items interact with her CSing and what items to buy at what timings, is basically a confirmation of one of the biggest reasons why we've been advocating for Ludens as a second item on Lux. Most of the time, Ludens at a second item timing will let you one shot caster minions with E on Lux, when Deathcap will not. This depends a lot on how early you get the Deathcap, but in general you have to be getting progamer level gold generation in order to make it happen these days. I'd imagine LS is generally talking about these items in terms of competitive play, whereas I in general talk about items in terms of how this thread will be useful to like a Silver League player who might actually be the person reading it, so maybe there's a bit of a disconnect here. Then there's some goings on about "ricochet" damage which I think missed the point that I was trying to make in regards to that if you hit one person with an E in a siege you can still proc Ludens on four people. We'll do a bit of math for an example here, using the AP values listed in my above post. If you're in a siege situation and you hit an E on one person, you're gonna do the following damage: Athenes+Void+Deathcap 463.86 Athenes+Void+Ludens 555.25 - 984.4 The difference here is because even though your initial E only hit 1 person, the Ludens Echo damage can still hit up to 4 people if they're close enough to that one person. So, imagine a scenario where you're sieging a tower, right. You throw an E out as poke damage. Maybe you only hit their front line tank or something. Ludens Echo can still throw damage all the way into their back line. Ultimately, your Ludens E can do more than twice as much total AOE damage as your Deathcap E in this scenario. Here's the same numbers for what would happen if that E hit all 5 champions on the enemy team, something that probably doesn't happen almost ever, at the very least being much rarer than the first example: Athenes+Void+Deathcap 2319.3 Athenes+Void+Ludens 2633.2 So we can see that, even in that incredibly sketchy example case, Ludens is STILL doing more damage than Deathcap. And since we're talking about sieging here and you're running around and using E's to poke, you can actually have Ludens up again for the next E. What's really important in all this though is that Ludens has this magical ability to actually increase the range of your skills in a sieging situation, right. Because even if the back line squishy target is staying outside the range of your E, as long as you can tag somebody in the front with it, Ludens can still throw damage into the backline. Here's a screenshot of how far away somebody can be from the thing that gets hit to still take damage from Ludens: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/64FQoCe.jpg) That's like, really far away, probably close to 500 range or so (I'm guessing 475-500). Graves was able to AA Gromp from there, but was not able to if he moved more than a step or so farther away. Basically, it's very likely that in a poke damage scenario, even if your E only hits 1 champion, Ludens will still hit multiple people. So not only is it providing all that damage, it has the secondary effect of making your damage easier to land on the targets you want to land it on, while also making it safer for you to go up and poke by increasing your movespeed. And that is worth quite a bit, IMO. Lux loves movespeed, for what it's worth. Before I wrap this up, I want to talk a bit about LS's logic that you should get Deathcap 3rd over Ludens, because Deathcap gives you more shielding, which totals to more overall value in a fight. I mean, this is fine logic, and if you feel like what you really need for an individual game is shielding, I'm not gonna argue against that. But if you really want to talk about the defensive value of the shield, you have to be talking about it in comparison to the defensive value of the 7% movespeed you get from Ludens, not in comparison to the offensive value of the damage. And personally, I'd rather have 7% movespeed to avoid skillshots, position better in the fight, or actually get to the person I need to shield, over shielding them for 60 more damage. That's a difficult thing to assert with math unfortunately, and I'd be interested in seeing some higher leveled players opinions on this. Following that it's basically four paragraphs of LS insulting me, and demanding I post math to prove what I'm saying, which is ironic since I've been doing exactly that, and he has not. I'm not going to bother to reply to most of it. I will point out though Mr. Shadow, that when we get in LS hate competitions here on TL, I'm usually one of the only people who says that you shouldn't hate on a guy because of their actions of 10 years ago, and that you should be given a clean slate and the ability to prove yourself as a good analyst in your adult life. I think it's great that you've been able to make a career out of what you're doing. It's not something I would want to do, but I'm glad you're happy with it. But it's getting harder and harder for me to play devils advocate with you, because your behavior on the League scene, and honestly in this thread in particular (my lovely Lux thread!) is difficult to defend. I may have called you dumb, and if that offended you I apologize, it's true I probably shouldn't insult somebody just because I disagree with them. It is a bad habit that all of us internet citizens have. But your responses to me, when you're the well respected, paid analyst, have been pretty immature. I'd challenge you to be a little more professional when writing, since you're trying to get paid for your services while I am not. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On March 25 2015 09:36 Velocirapture wrote: It is all academic at this point anyways. They are removing echo next patch until they figure out a way to make it a better item. Echo brought me back to LoL and I guess its removal signals a hiatus. Of course I will try the new Athenes into deathcap build but I am almost positive it will help literally literally every other AP mage mid more than it helps Lux. Welcome back to the world where you can't one shot caster minions until almost 10k gold. No they're not, that was for Twisted Treeline. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21243 Posts
On March 25 2015 09:36 Velocirapture wrote: It is all academic at this point anyways. They are removing echo next patch until they figure out a way to make it a better item. Echo brought me back to LoL and I guess its removal signals a hiatus. Of course I will try the new Athenes into deathcap build but I am almost positive it will help literally literally every other AP mage mid more than it helps Lux. Welcome back to the world where you can't one shot caster minions until almost 10k gold. Why does everyone think this? It's only removed on TT and CS, not on SR. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On March 25 2015 09:36 Velocirapture wrote: It is all academic at this point anyways. They are removing echo next patch until they figure out a way to make it a better item. Echo brought me back to LoL and I guess its removal signals a hiatus. Of course I will try the new Athenes into deathcap build but I am almost positive it will help literally literally every other AP mage mid more than it helps Lux. Welcome back to the world where you can't one shot caster minions until almost 10k gold. errr? edit: shen'd...twice... | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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