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On February 23 2015 23:26 Vallelol wrote:As an all time Lux fan, I love this thread. I usually play dota these days, but when queuing alone I like to play a game of League once in a while. Here is my match history, as you can see im usually going Morellos/Athenes -> Mejais -> Void Staff, sometimes Zhonyas before if I play against stuff like Zed/Yasuo etc. I don't know though if its the right choice to go Mejais in my games, what would be the usual indicator to decide if I should go Mejais or not?
personally, I buy mejais on AP lux mid when I dumpster on the opposite mid and can already kill the other mid any time I want. And just shoot lazers at their team when they're doing objectives to get free stacks.
Other than that, you get mejais when you know you aren't a priority target/are an expert at staying alive on an immobile champion. For example, you're just doing fine in mid, but bot lane is destroying and top is doing average. You get mejais to snowball your team's advantage.
I go Athenes/Morellos/NLR (needlessly large rod) first depending on how well I'm doing in lane/my lane matchup, and then go void staff/deathcap next. Have been my build ever since I played lux.
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Hey, sorry that it took me a while to get back to this. I was banned lol and then forgot about it.
There's two factors to consider when deciding whether or not to go Mejais.
#1 - Am I going to keep getting kills/assists? If you're behind, you probably don't want to get Mejais.
#2 - Am I not going to die?
This one is more critical because you might be super far ahead, but if their team is Lissandra Yasuo Vi, when you have a lot of stacks they will just focus the fuck out of you and it's hard to stop that trio from getting in your face if they really want to dive for it.
You only want to get Mejais if you can say yes to BOTH of these questions. So you need to be at least somewhat ahead, and the enemy team needs to not have crazy long range dive assassins, for it to be a good idea.
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So, apparently Lux ult should be doing like 10% more damage, I guess that's a thing.
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I am really excited for Lux. Luden's Echo could be a totally legit early purchase for Lux if it creates a one item wave clear timing with E and a bug fix that adds 0.2 ratio to a full combo. It still doesn't put Lux on the level of Xerath but if it works out the QOL improvements would make her way more fun to play.
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So, I'm actually going to wait a patch before I update the guide, because I'm fairly suspicious that Ludens Echo is too strong and will get nerfed in the patch after this one. Also because I'm going to Asia soon and can't really afford the time to do two guide updates before I leave, so I want to do one larger one right before I go.
But I'm pretty confident that in its current state you should be building it as second item on Lux (after Athene/Grail) all of the time, and that it's completely killed the Seraphs build order.
Also should probably use CDR/level runes whenever you think you can get away with it now.
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I don't think it will get nerfed but I base that almost entirely on some math, that I didn't double check, that I saw on reddit after the first reveal which showed that for basically every AP it is worse than deathcap. This means that for all champs in meta right now it is at best a 5th/6th item and that assumed you don't need any defensive items at all. The ONLY reason I think it will be good on lux is because it allows you to wave clear with one rotation at one item. Champs like Xerath and Ahri can already do that with lower cooldowns and conventional builds.
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It's worse than Deathcap as a 6th item sure.
It's far better than Deathcap as a 1st or 2nd item.
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Not according to what I read. Maybe I am just being silly but as a second item deathcap passive is worth a little over 70 AP. Assuming you get one proc per rotation you will get about 130 damage (100+.15 ratio on 200AP) chain lightning at 2 items with ludens so a 2.0 ratio (which is low for any mage's rotation) already out scales at 2 items. There may be a slight shift in value from missing spells (favoring echo) or from getting fewer than one proc per rotation (favoring deathcap) but it certainly seems far from cut and dry that echo is better even at this stage.
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So, if you've got a Dorans ring and typical runes/masteries and you're level 9.
With Deathcap you have 213.213 AP.
With Ludens Echo you have 164.01 AP.
So you're looking at a difference of 49.203 AP.
The Ludens Echo proc will do 105 damage.
In order for the Deathcap route to do more damage, the AP ratio on the spell used would have to be about 225%, which is impossible for a single ability.
Then on top of that Ludens Echo has 7% movespeed, a better build path, and costs less.
It's pretty broken. Won't be for everybody, but on the champs it will be good on it will be pretty broken, and Lux will be one of them.
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I agree that double doran's straight into echo will generate a window, I just disagree with it being OP. I used a 2 item timing and you used one, I assume because the earlier you get it the better it is. What I am saying is that the window is very narrow and not without significant cost. In a heads up match-up, even at one item as you showed, deathcap is way better when using your entire kit. Luden's echo is superior when running around at a thousand range throwing one spell pokes but any type of true engage flips the math. Add to this that you significantly delay your deathcap timing which scales better with every AP than echo and I just cant see it being more than a niche pick.
Lux specifically benefits from it because she is a mage with one AOE basic ability that isnt strong enough to one shot casters unless way ahead so it adds an entirely unique farming utility to her kit. I agree that if the timing works Lux will rush it but I honestly cant think of another champion that will get it early. This isn't because echo is bad, it is because the other 5 required items are already set to critical timings.
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The game right now revolves around rotational play to take objectives and team fighting. In both those scenarios Luden's Echo seems superior unless you have a 2 threat comp (maokai top, Sejuani jng, Janna support) that looks to scale in addition to a slower scaling ADC. Even then the potential burst on Echo might still out damage Deathcap while not even factoring in the move speed.
I think it'll be exceptionally interesting to see how it worst for low cd mid Mages. Somebody like Karthus.
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I don't think Luden's is built for burst damage.
When bought as your first major item on almost every mid-lane champion with decent AP ratios, Deathcap is going to out damage or at least be equal to Ludens on the first full burst (Most AP champs have 225% ratio on a full combo). But its the second time you can proc Ludens ability that it should begin to surpass deathcap's damage. Deathcap is much stronger as the game goes on while Ludens is strongest when first purchased.
I do think Luden's gives you insane poking.
As I said after this was released on PBE, Luden's should be a great item on any AP champ with good poke damage because it basically makes that single spell deal ~50% more damage. First champ to come to my mind was Lux who can hit hard from max range with a long cooldown spell and below average AP ratio.
Right now I'm thinking the go to Lux build is Dring>Chalice>Ludens>Void into finish Athenes. Lux's low AP ratios make Luden's almost equal to deathcap in a full burst and poking with E is going to be 50% stronger in the early game which is more valuable to Lux because its much easier to 75-0 enemies than it is to 100-0 them.
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On March 12 2015 17:02 geript wrote:
The game right now revolves around rotational play to take objectives and team fighting. In both those scenarios Luden's Echo seems superior unless you have a 2 threat comp (maokai top, Sejuani jng, Janna support) that looks to scale in addition to a slower scaling ADC. Even then the potential burst on Echo might still out damage Deathcap while not even factoring in the move speed.
I think it'll be exceptionally interesting to see how it worst for low cd mid Mages. Somebody like Karthus.
I think low CD mages will still benefit more from buying other items before ludens because the bonus damage isn't going to proc on every spell making it much less efficient than on poke champs. Sure if you are spamming a low CD spell you can charge Luden's faster but you are just going to OOM yourself. I think spammy mages are going to want a CDR/Mana item first before they get Ludens so they can take advantage of that synergy without going OOM quickly.
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I'm not so sure. I can see Luden's Echo being build on a variety of Tear/Seraphs based mages like Karthus, Nidalee or Cass. I can also see it be for bursty pick type mages like Ahri, Morgana or Syndra. I think there's also a reasonable reason to build it on a few assassin mages like Leblanc. It is a question of where and when to build it, but I think more people will be building it early on than just poke mages.
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So, couple things.
#1 - The math I posted above was based off Ludens doing 60+5 per level like it said in the patch notes. It's actually doing 100+15% AP like it was on the PBE, which is a lot stronger.
#2 - This is the Lux thread, not the Champs Who Like Ludens Echo thread, so while discussion is fine, it should probably be discussion relating to Lux.
#3 - As for Lux, I think Chalice > Ludens Echo is the go to build. I have tried it and I like it. I still want to wait a patch before updating the guide because I'm gonna have to change like, the entire fucking thing (ugh), but I think that's the build.
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I am inclined to agree on the build. I have tried a few and the one I initially thought would be best (ring->chalice->echo) is the best. I also feel even stronger that they won't nerf it unless there is some other champion it breaks (this is possible) because it feels BARELY better than deathcap and that gap will be even smaller when Lux's ult combo gains 0.2 ratio next patch with the bug fix.
I don't envy all the work ahead of you Ketara 
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If it gets nerfed it will most likely be the stack generation rate which doesn't effect Lux nearly as much because she has longer cool downs and spends most of her time moving to charge it.
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Oh BTW, just a note.
Lux passive autos proc it.
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The most surprising thing about it is that all ability damage procs it. Sirhcez built it on singed and the poison damage procced it. Totally not what I expected.
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It's because there's a difference between spell casts and spell damage. Lux passive deals spell damage (which is different from magic damage), so it procs things like spell weaving and Ludens Echo. But it's not a spell cast so it doesn't up the stacks by 20 or give Kassadin a W stack or things like that.
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EPT
