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You might also notice that in the one Froggen game that does go 6 items, he goes Seraphs+Morellos instead of getting Athenes. This means he's got 36.855 more AP in this build than he would with the build we've been talking about after buying Lich Bane.
That's not really a giant deal, but it is 27.64 more damage per Lich Bane proc and 75.55 more per combo, which reduces the amount of extra damage a DFG combo does over a Lich Bane combo to less than 50. While in that situation DFG would still be doing more damage to tanks, it's enough to make it so Lich Bane is doing more teamfight damage to squishy targets. If you look at the game, everybody on the enemy team is fairly squishy (Trynd top, Vi jungle who built a good amount of damage and is nowhere near full build at the end of the game)
Xes, I'd challenge you to find a pro player who played more ranked Lux games in season 3 than I did. I doubt you're going to find one. I'm not a professional player, but as I've said before I've played a LOT of Lux, I've tried all of the builds and item paths we've discussed, and I've found what I think is the best. I'm using the math to reinforce that, not to prove it.
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Is that why Iceborne Gauntlet is a good choice?
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If you're going to make a post please actually put some effort into it.
Tell me what you would suggest as an alternative for an armor item vs. a 5 AD enemy team.
The obvious candidate would be Randuins, so lets look at that. It's clear that Randuins is going to make you tankier than Iceborne would, but I want to see just how big of a difference it is. We'll assume you're getting sorc shoes for this.
Here are your stats with these items:
Randuin - 223.65 armor, 2372.09 HP, 610.155 AP
Iceborne - 223.65 armor, 1857.09 HP, 651.105 AP
So, counting your shield and barrier, this is your effective HP with each. I'm going to show it for 1 shield cast and for 2:
Randuin - 8035.89 1 shield, 8823 2 shields
Iceborne - 6948.2 1 shield, 7764 2 shields
So your effective HP is about 13-15% higher with Randuin over Iceborne.
Lets look at the slows now. With Randuin you get one 35% slow for 3.5 seconds at 500 range.
With Iceborne you get 2 seconds of 30% slow every 6 seconds at 550 range. So the initial Randuin slow is better, but the Iceborne slow is better by the second Sheen proc.
What I'm not looking at here is the attackspeed slow, which is admittedly a big deal.
But, I want to put this in perspective for you. These builds against an all AD team are ridiculously tanky. If you compare it to say, a late game Amumu who has Sunfire, Randuin, Golem Stone and Ninja Tabi, he's got 9070.90 effective HP.
So if you're buying this much armor, you're as tanky as your tank jungler is with Randuins.
I've found that in real games, you don't actually need to be this tanky. The 70 armor from Iceborne is enough to ensure that you're just not going to die, and the AP, CDR and extra Sheen damage is more valuable than the 500 HP.
But yes, Randuins would make you tankier than Iceborne. A second Zhonya would make you less tanky but give you a lot more damage, for what it's worth.
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If you're vs double AD carry you can just cap out CDR and go for more AP and go for lasers and hope your team isn't trash
Otherwise, you can still get CDR and spam your shield on cooldown for eHP against AD, if that's not enough, you're probably just ass at playing lux, or the enemy team is diving you hella hard and you can just get MS (lich bane) or GA.
In no case is IBG ever a good item on Lux outside of trolling. You pay a shitton of gold for mana you don't need, since by your GREAT MATH you'll have enough mana regen and base mana; you pay a shitton of gold for a Sheen proc that by the GREAT MATH OF MODELS is shitty buildup and not damage efficient. You're putting gold value on the kitability from the shitty slow that requires AA procs but not in the kitability that lich bane gives you. You'd get more value out of a Rylai's than an IBG.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On February 07 2014 05:34 Ketara wrote:
If you're going to make a post please actually put some effort into it.
Tell me what you would suggest as an alternative for an armor item vs. a 5 AD enemy team.
Why do you need more than ~100-125 armor? You have more than enough with Hourglass. Just get more AP and/or CDR to kill people and for bigger shields.
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The Iceborne suggestion is for situations where you actually want an extra armor item. It doesn't happen very often, I've probably built it in 1 or 2 of 600+ ranked Lux games.
But in that rare situation where the enemy team is Tryndamere, Zed, Fiora, Ashe Janna or something stupid like that, it can be useful.
Since your suggestion is that you'd rather just stick with Zhonya and buy more damage, I agree. That is typically the right decision, and is what you do in most games even when the enemy team is all AD. But if you're actually going to buy a second defensive item against an all AD team, I think Iceborne is the best of the available options because you don't need the tankiness of Randuins, you want something that gives you armor but also some damage too.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Shield the damage, use Zhonyas against ultis, and blow them up while kiting.
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On February 07 2014 06:09 Ketara wrote:
The Iceborne suggestion is for situations where you actually want an extra armor item. It doesn't happen very often, I've probably built it in 1 or 2 of 600+ ranked Lux games.
But in that rare situation where the enemy team is Tryndamere, Zed, Fiora, Ashe Janna or something stupid like that, it can be useful.
Since your suggestion is that you'd rather just stick with Zhonya and buy more damage, I agree. That is typically the right decision, and is what you do in most games even when the enemy team is all AD. But if you're actually going to buy a second defensive item against an all AD team, I think Iceborne is the best of the available options because you don't need the tankiness of Randuins, you want something that gives you armor but also some damage too.
In that situation I'd rather get a GA than IBG if you weren't pro enough to get by without a 2nd defensive item.
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As to the statement that you'd get more gold value out of Rylai than IBG, here's what Rylai looks like:
Rylai 6th item effective HP: 5541.49 1st shield, 6838.11 2nd shield.
Since all of Lux's damaging spells are AoE, the slow from Iceborne is actually more effective on her than the slow from Rylai.
If you were going to buy a Rylai in that situation, buying a second Zhonya would be better.
As for GA, there's nothing wrong with getting GA really. It's not quite as cost efficient because you're paying a ton of gold for MR you don't use, but IBG isn't too cost efficient either since extra mana is not very useful that late in the game. It also doesn't give any damage and like I've said, I've found that the armor on IBG is all you need to basically never get killed. IBG also has a cleaner buildup than GA.
The thing about Lux and GA is that Lux doesn't really get much use out of GA. Her spells have long cooldowns so it's very possible that none of them are up when she revives, and all four of them have cast times so it's entirely possible for you to die again before you're able to cast anything.
That said, I think GA is fine if you want a second defensive item and can get some use from the MR, or in situations where you literally cannot keep yourself from dying. If some assassin on the enemy team is SO fed that you are going to die regardless of what you buy, then GA is the only second defensive item worth getting. The other option in that situation is to just go all damage with the concept that you'll get one full spell rotation off and after that you're going to be dead regardless.
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Meh if you're getting sniped by some crazy dive team and you're "forced" to get a 2nd armor item, something is really wrong. Lux's entire kit + flash should make her a kiting god. Arguing for IBG on a lux is the same thing as advocating building a frozen mallet on Ashe.
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Baa?21244 Posts
"Ignite on the other hand often has too short a range for Lux to pair it with her long range spell rotation."
"Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off"
Good thing IBG has 2000 range so it isn't constrained by these factors!
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On February 07 2014 06:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
"Ignite on the other hand often has too short a range for Lux to pair it with her long range spell rotation."
"Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off"
Good thing IBG has 2000 range so it isn't constrained by these factors!
On January 31 2014 04:15 Goumindong wrote:
Dfg range > lichbane range so if you change get the active on dfg off you can't get lichbane off. The lichbane proc is considerably more important to its dps than the dfgs active is to its.
Just wanted to point out that Cheep is now trying to quote other people in the thread without saying who it was in an effort to make it look like I'm contradicting myself.
Please get out of my thread Cheep.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 31 2014 04:03 Ketara wrote:
It's also worth noting that DFG has a longer range than Lich Bane, 750 vs 550.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=441422¤tpage=6#107
Good thing IBG has a longer range than Lich Bane!
On January 31 2014 04:47 Ketara wrote:
When you do the math and add all that together, you find that you need at least 3 Lich Bane procs in order to outdamage DFG, and if each of your spells is hitting multiple people, it's more like 4. Even if you don't use the DFG active as part of a combo and just use it to add damage to whoever gets into the back line like you would Lich Bane, you're having to fight for at least 14 seconds for Lich Bane to overtake DFG in damage, since it takes you 14 seconds to get 3 Lich Bane procs. If you're playing well, hitting multiple targets and using DFG to add bonus damage to your second Q-E rotation, it's more like 4 Lich Bane procs and we're talking 21 seconds for Lich Bane to be better.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=441422¤tpage=6#111
Good thing IBG proc mechanics are completely different from Lich Bane proc mechanics!
On February 07 2014 06:29 Ketara wrote:
I'm contradicting myself.
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I'm not sure how that's me contradicting myself.
The discussion about IBG is in relation to games where you want to buy a second defensive item. Nowhere have I said it's a good damage item. What I have said is that it gives you more damage than other armor items do.
So, saying that Lich Bane is inferior to DFG as a damage item is not contradicting a statement that IBG is good as a second defensive item vs. an all AD team.
What is your problem? Why are you harassing me.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On February 07 2014 07:01 Ketara wrote:
I'm not sure how that's me contradicting myself.
The discussion about IBG is in relation to games where you want to buy a second defensive item. Nowhere have I said it's a good damage item. What I have said is that it gives you more damage than other armor items do.
So, saying that Lich Bane is inferior to DFG as a damage item is not contradicting a statement that IBG is good as a second defensive item vs. an all AD team.
TIL when you buy a second defensive item because you're about to die, your primary concern is not what keeps you alive but what does more damage.
That 30 AP and 10% CDR is a lot better than 500 health and a kiting aura or a revive. Very important, definitely game changing.
The scenarios and "mathcraft" you put out are about as practical as physics problems that assume a massless, frictionless pulley.
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In comparing DFG vs Lichbane, you say the fact that DFG outranges Lichbane is a big plus (yet forgetting that AA range is more than spell range by ~150 depending on size of character box radius), yet in discussing IBG, somehow the proc has value, despite the fact that you will pretty much never get it off, compounded by the fact that slow stacking is terrible between lux E and IBG. When I made the offhanded remark to Rylais, doing a comparison would thus involve computing the gold value of extra slow on your Q and R at 1200 range compared to only ~700 range, as trash as the Rylais slow would be.
I can make up situations and models and plug in numbers and get results too. You claim a lot of experience with Lux, which is great for someone writing a guide, and an excellent basis for making recommendations on playstyle. From your experience, you advocate DFG, which is also fine because DFG gives tons of AP and some CDR regardless of whether you can ever use the active. However, Lichbane and Morellonomicon and Seraph's are all equally fine given the empirical experience of players better than you (but maybe not better than you at making up models and plugging in numbers), yet you completely dismiss these on the basis of your metrics and contrivances alone.
What we're saying is that your defensive proclamations that ceteris parabis X item beats Y item is completely flawed because your models and situations are unrealistic.
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On February 07 2014 07:22 xes wrote:
In comparing DFG vs Lichbane, you say the fact that DFG outranges Lichbane is a big plus (yet forgetting that AA range is more than spell range by ~150 depending on size of character box radius), yet in discussing IBG, somehow the proc has value, despite the fact that you will pretty much never get it off, compounded by the fact that slow stacking is terrible between lux E and IBG. When I made the offhanded remark to Rylais, doing a comparison would thus involve computing the gold value of extra slow on your Q and R at 1200 range compared to only ~700 range, as trash as the Rylais slow would be.
I can make up situations and models and plug in numbers and get results too. You claim a lot of experience with Lux, which is great for someone writing a guide, and an excellent basis for making recommendations on playstyle. From your experience, you advocate DFG, which is also fine because DFG gives tons of AP and some CDR regardless of whether you can ever use the active. However, Lichbane and Morellonomicon and Seraph's are all equally fine given the empirical experience of players better than you (but maybe not better than you at making up models and plugging in numbers), yet you completely dismiss these on the basis of your metrics and contrivances alone.
What we're saying is that your defensive proclamations that ceteris parabis X item beats Y item is completely flawed because your models and situations are unrealistic.
I didn't say that the DFG active outranging Lich Bane was a big plus. I said it was worth noting. It is worth noting, but it's not a terribly big deal.
The IBG proc has value because of the slow, not because of the damage. The damage is a plus but it's not a lot of damage. The big deal is the 70 armor. The added damage is just because at that point you have basically all the armor you could possibly need, and want the rest of the stats on your item to add damage.
Lich Bane is, by the numbers, very similar to DFG, but in terms of raw damage is inferior to DFG in essentially every realistic situation given the same rest of the build. We've gone over a lot of different situations with this, including ones that are extremely favorable to Lich Bane, so it's hard for me to see where you say that I'm giving unrealistic situations. In a standard, realistic situation DFG is even more superior to Lich Bane than I say it is in the guide.
Lich Bane has some choice moments when it is better, when you're split pushing or fighting lots of late game 1v1's (or when you do a different build that has higher AP), but these things don't happen in hardly any games because Lux just isn't used as a dueller or a split pusher. I mean, if it would make you feel better I could put Lich Bane up on the guide as an alternative item for when you're split pushing, but in terms of a "normal game" it's just not as good.
I'm also not the only person saying that. Dae who is our diamond 1 Lux player also said that in a normal game you get DFG over Lich Bane because the stats are better.
I've never dismissed the Seraph+Morello build. I said in the guide that I can see the appeal of it, know some pro players do it and I've tried it, but I personally don't like it as much. I also included brief instructions on how to do it, but said that I'm not going to be covering it in depth because I A - Don't like it as much, and B - Just don't have enough experience with it to do so.
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I went back and looked through all the arithmetic, and again, you're using unrealistic situations. Lichbane helps burst towers in sieges and gives 5% MS which is extremely nontrivial given the kiting of Lux's kit
League isn't a game where 10 dudes stand still pressing all the buttons and racing to see which side gets the DPS counter up the highest
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Yes, if your team needs help taking down towers Lich Bane is fine.
But in terms of raw damage, DFG does more damage than Lich Bane. I don't know what sort of realistic situation you're talking about where it doesn't, please suggest one.
We've kind of been over this a few times at this point.
Edit: Updated the guide to add Lich Bane in as an alternative item option when split pushing or tower pushing is important, since this is such a big deal to you guys.
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My realistic situation is the one where standing around circlejerking DPS numbers, which is the only thing you mention in your guide in the section of DFG vs Lichbane, is not the only relevant dimensional factor, which is happens the entire game.
Sure cheep has been trolly, but he's raised legitimate criticisms that you dismiss the validity of because you start with categorically flawed assumptions. Raw DPS or eHP are not the only factors that matter, a point you superficially acknowledge a priori, but then inscrutably ignore in any posterior discussion. Obviously these calculations are the only ones feasible, but out of some epistemic terror, you present the feasible set as the entire realm without giving consideration to any intractable computations. When intrinsic values are not given, you can estimate the value using extrinsic factors, i.e. the combined empirical record (as a form of Monte Carlo), which the record provides strong evidence that Lich Bane is weakly dominant (a far weaker postulation than your rebuttals against strong dominance) unilateral alternative to DFG.
Tl;dr Put a gold value on 5% MS for Lux
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EPT
