EPTEdit; If you're not landing your skillshots on Zed it doesn't matter what items you brought to the fight, you dead son.
[Champion] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 7
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Edit; If you're not landing your skillshots on Zed it doesn't matter what items you brought to the fight, you dead son. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On January 31 2014 05:48 lega wrote: So am I the only bad player who cannot hit those skill shots on Zed? At least even if he shadow jukes my q, I can still land AAs. If he use ult to juke my AA, I guess I will be very happy. As I said, you have to assume you can hit everything to justify DFG, since 771.8 damage requires at least 3 lichbane procs to surpass. LoL And I think Lux should never waste her full rotation on Mundo except at the end of fight. Typically the way you get Zed is to wait until after he uses his ult on somebody. If you try to get him before the ult he will dodge it with the ult, so you wait for him to get on your ADC, then snare him. Your ADC uses whatever escape skill he has / flash to get away from Zed and since Zed is snared he can't follow. If he ults you you just Zhonya. As for Mundo, yes you should be using your second rotation on Mundo. Typically the way you play Lux in a teamfight is to use your first combo with your ult to either A - instantkill one guy, or if that isn't possible B - Just hit as many people as possible. After that you want to stay back with your ADC and peel, which means you use all your everything on whoever is hitting them, even if it's Mundo. And you're still not doing the math. You use your DFG combo on Zed. That's 771.8 damage, okay. You've also got 54 more AP. So even if each of your skills only hit one person, by the time of the 2nd Lich Bane proc you've cast 1x R, 2x Q, 8x W applications and 2xE. That's a total of 635% AP ratio. Another 342.9 extra damage dealt/shielded. Totals to 1114.7. If you factor in that all your spells came up 1 second earlier into the number over time, this is about the same as the Lich Bane damage. So, at 14 seconds you've done 1x R, 3x Q, 12x W applications and 3xE. At this point your third Lich Bane proc starts outdamaging DFG, IF you used your combo on Zed and IF every single spell you cast has only hit one other person and IF nobody else on your team does any magic damage. If you're using DFG on the correct target (the tank/bruiser, not Zed) and hitting multiple targets with your spells, it should be easy to see that it's taking Lich Bane 4 procs to be better or even equal in overall damage. Not to mention that with Lich Bane, your 4th proc happens at 21 or so seconds at 4 spell rotations, and with DFG you're at that point closing on your 5th spell rotation because of the extra CDR. In the guide I stated that DFG was better than Lich Bane in the first 10 seconds of a fight, but after doing all this math it looks like in many situations DFG will be better than Lich Bane for potentially even 20 seconds. 20 second teamfights just don't happen. Lich Bane is just not as good as DFG, pretty much ever, unless as you say you're missing all your skills. If you're not hitting your skillshots why are you playing Lux in the first place? You're really starting to annoy me at this point. You clearly haven't read the guide. I am spending hours trying to explain my reasoning behind builds with math and making them as clear as possible, and you are not responding in kind, and at this point are responding with a derisive and offensive attitude. If you are going to post in this thread again please back up your statements. If you are not going to, please stop posting. | ||
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YouGotNothin
United States907 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On January 31 2014 07:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you guys know that you should get different items in different games, with a wide variety of factors to consider? Certainly. But dominated is dominated; the argument isn't that you need the move speed on the lichbane. | ||
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
On January 31 2014 07:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you guys know that you should get different items in different games, with a wide variety of factors to consider? no, pls do go on | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
It can also be better when your snowballing with mejais and dont need the cdr from DFG. Most games you do just get the DFG for the statstick and the chance to use it on people that dive your team. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
On January 31 2014 07:46 Ketara wrote: Cheep, please don't troll my thread. Thanks. Did you know that bringing attention to objective truth is considered trolling by some people? | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
On January 31 2014 23:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you know that bringing attention to objective truth is considered trolling by some people? Oh, really? | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
On January 31 2014 23:59 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you know that bringing attention to objective truth is considered trolling by some people? I think the joke was lost upon you  | ||
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zodde
Sweden1908 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
But in terms of doing the most damage, DFG does the most damage regardless of how awkward the active is. That's the point of all the math in the last page of thread, to prove this. If you're not getting a DFG as 6th item that means you're sacrificing damage for some other need. It's worth pointing out that I'm not advocating that you should always get a 6th item DFG in every game, or even only get items listed in the guide. I very recently got a 6th item Banshee's Veil on Lux because the particular game called for it, and I don't say Bveil is a good item for Lux in the guide. It's really not a good item for Lux, but it was a good item in that particular game. It's a guide for new and beginning players, not a guide for diamond league, diamond league players don't need to read guides. The starting point should be DFG as 6th item, and you should branch out from there. | ||
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lega
Canada290 Posts
On January 31 2014 06:20 Ketara wrote: Typically the way you get Zed is to wait until after he uses his ult on somebody. If you try to get him before the ult he will dodge it with the ult, so you wait for him to get on your ADC, then snare him. Your ADC uses whatever escape skill he has / flash to get away from Zed and since Zed is snared he can't follow. If he ults you you just Zhonya. As for Mundo, yes you should be using your second rotation on Mundo. Typically the way you play Lux in a teamfight is to use your first combo with your ult to either A - instantkill one guy, or if that isn't possible B - Just hit as many people as possible. After that you want to stay back with your ADC and peel, which means you use all your everything on whoever is hitting them, even if it's Mundo. And you're still not doing the math. You use your DFG combo on Zed. That's 771.8 damage, okay. You've also got 54 more AP. So even if each of your skills only hit one person, by the time of the 2nd Lich Bane proc you've cast 1x R, 2x Q, 8x W applications and 2xE. That's a total of 635% AP ratio. Another 342.9 extra damage dealt/shielded. Totals to 1114.7. If you factor in that all your spells came up 1 second earlier into the number over time, this is about the same as the Lich Bane damage. So, at 14 seconds you've done 1x R, 3x Q, 12x W applications and 3xE. At this point your third Lich Bane proc starts outdamaging DFG, IF you used your combo on Zed and IF every single spell you cast has only hit one other person and IF nobody else on your team does any magic damage. If you're using DFG on the correct target (the tank/bruiser, not Zed) and hitting multiple targets with your spells, it should be easy to see that it's taking Lich Bane 4 procs to be better or even equal in overall damage. Not to mention that with Lich Bane, your 4th proc happens at 21 or so seconds at 4 spell rotations, and with DFG you're at that point closing on your 5th spell rotation because of the extra CDR. In the guide I stated that DFG was better than Lich Bane in the first 10 seconds of a fight, but after doing all this math it looks like in many situations DFG will be better than Lich Bane for potentially even 20 seconds. 20 second teamfights just don't happen. Lich Bane is just not as good as DFG, pretty much ever, unless as you say you're missing all your skills. If you're not hitting your skillshots why are you playing Lux in the first place? You're really starting to annoy me at this point. You clearly haven't read the guide. I am spending hours trying to explain my reasoning behind builds with math and making them as clear as possible, and you are not responding in kind, and at this point are responding with a derisive and offensive attitude. If you are going to post in this thread again please back up your statements. If you are not going to, please stop posting. Sorry I was busy yesterday and didnt have time to reply. Unfortunately, I did read your guide and your reply carefully . The more I read them the more I feel reluctant to argue about those math. Any math based on any particular example cannot "back up" any statement, unless the example is typical and representative. For most of your cases, I do have the feeling that you are making up your examples to favour your conclusion. For example, we all know that Liandry does percentage health damage, excels in poke and excels when you hit multiple people. But in your DFG/Liandry calculations, you choose an ADC with banshee as a single target and focusing on one-full-combo damage . On the other hand, at your DFG/Lichbane calculations, since DFG is percentage health damage, you start using your 5k health Mundo as the target and insisting that DFG is better when you hit more people. However in most real cases, pokes are usually landing on front line, i.e. the 5k health Mundo , and the DFG/lichbane are for divers with multiple gap closers like zed/fizz/riven, not a kiteable Mundo. Similarly, to comparing guise/athene, you insist there should be only 1 passive proc in your calculation since there is flash/tenacity, etc to prevent you land even one aa on target. Then in the later case, you assume that to be a Lux player you should be able to hit EVERY SINGLE spell on a diving Zed, regardless of the fact that there is still flash/QSS, etc out there. It is easy to make up your model to get a favourable number in your math. You even include some possible little factors to favour your argument. You find that chalice and guise are way better in E+aa harassing. Then you factor it by MANA REGEN. This is the most hilarious calculation I have ever seen. Sitting on full mana won't help your laning and most mid champions are not mundo/nasus, they will be dead before you can hit 10 E-aa combo and oom. If you like I can also come up with similar weird "counter-math". Chalice guise sorc is cheaper than athene sorc, but you omit that 235 gold different . So I propose, to compare these two builds, you should compare the damage between calice+guise vs. codex+chalice+boot? These are more realistic items on those two builds when they are lv 9, and the gold difference is also just 340. I could also introduce the missing rate of skill shot in the calculation of Lux damage.Lets say that any Lux who can hit 50% of her skillshot is decent in her ELO range. Then I factor the combo damage by 50% to compare between DFG/Lichbane. I hope you could enjoy those maths at all LoL. TL:DR: You are so obsessed with numbers and keeping manipulating your examples to get a more desired number. Unfortunately, those numbers you get are meaningless in terms of supporting your argument. People do not have to actually repeat the math to question it. League is not a turn-based TRPG and cannot be represented by any single made-up example. I am sorry if it insult you, I suggest that if you really want to use math to "back up " your statement without doing a thorough calculation throughout the whole parameter region(which is impossible I know), you'd better start with unfavourable cases for math. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
He compared Mundo/a tank for the DFG/Lichbane comparison because lux often won't use lichbane or DFG at the start of a fight. She will run her combo and then have to run her combo a second time on the enemy tank/diver. When he did the calculation he was even favorable to the Lichbane by not including the extra damage that Lux's combo does from the extra AP (about 110 damage per person hit with Q,E,R, 73 for people hit with only E/R. Which ideally adds up to about 439 damage, much of it on the most important targets of the fight). That is to say he compared the best case for Lichbane and even ignored some of the advantages of DFG. The rest of the parameter space should probably land with DFG. We looked at back liners with regards to the Liandry's/DFG examination because that is roughly who you care about doing the damage to on your first big combo, and Liandry's should actually do slightly better against the tankier targets. I made that comparison because I was supporting Liandry's and took the most advantageous position with regards to the damage that the item i was arguing against does. And he was pretty reasonable on his acceptance of it, even if he things the CDR and active put DFG over the top, which is a totally reasonable position. That is, i was arguing for Liandrys and so used a best case scenario for DFG (that is, our intention is to get the best damage over the enemy team at the initial fight, what do we use, the low mr/hp targets and the relative MR break points define our best case scenario for DFG) Look, you don't have to look at the numbers if you don't want to. But the counter position to "find the best mathematically valuable solution" is "who cares what you build". Right? Why not build AD lux? A: Because the math shows that AP and Penetration are better. | ||
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lega
Canada290 Posts
Btw, as lichbane/dfg case, the best scenario for lichbane is when you miss all your spells after you activate your DFG. You can even do a favourable calculation to DFG by letting you hit a E. Actually in this case, AD Lux is " the best mathematically valuable solution". You can do the math and it will show you. Then, shall we believe the math and go for AD build? | ||
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Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You still seem to be arguing your position based on the assumption that you won't be hitting your spells in a teamfight. If you aren't hitting your spells you're losing the game and what items you have does not matter. You have to be under the assumption that you are hitting your spells. If you can't hit them, play a different champion. It's also worth noting that, if your argument is that not every spell in lane is going to hit (an obviously valid assumption), then at least for your Chalice+Guise vs Athenes argument, that would favor Athenes. The more regen and CDR you have the more you can afford to miss spells, this should be pretty obvious. As far as me backing up my arguments goes, really what's backing them up is that I have something like 1000 Lux games played at a fairly reasonable/high level. I've had late game Lich Banes before, I've had late game DFG's before. I've tried building AP after Chalice instead of building Athenes before (this was the optimum build before Athenes was changed from 10% to 20% CDR in early season 3. You went Chalice+Codex, started building the Deathcap, and finished Athenes kind of whenever convenient.) I know what feels better in a real game. I use the math to try to reinforce these things, not to make baseless proofs. I'm really not sure what your problem is at this point. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing? I don't get it. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
is the value of being able to pick exactly who the damage is dealt to being considered? after using the dfg active, lux is limited to damaging the targets she hits with offensive spells, while a lich bane permits a broad target selection and turns her shield into a damage ability lich bane is rarely if ever the best item choice for raw damage, and there are three major reasons to build it 1) tower pushing (tf) 2) burst synergy with autoattack buffs already in kit (fizz) 3) get damage off utility skills (nidalee) most champs that like lich hit two of the three criteria, and lux benefits from the burst and utility bonus. i think there's value in being able to stack burst on autoattacks rather than skillshots, even for players skilled at landing them. the utility consideration is also notable of course, if dfg completely blows lich bane out of the water in terms of damage then the lich's unique benefits are negligible, but the fact that lich is preferred over dfg by many high level lux players makes me think this may not be the case | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
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