You don't have to shut down a laner, but if he is allowed to shove the wave go to another lane and be back in time for the next wave if it nothing happens (~30s so its reasonable) it mightn't matter how good your communication is because maybe your laners have to play passively (they hate that btw) and then the other guy can shove lane and suddenly a 2 or 3 man dive is possible. If your jungle is on that side of the map its suddenly a risk to get invaded so he doesn't want to be on that side either.

It's not guaranteed to have a bad effect but there a tons of things that can go wrong when the enemy mid can leave lane as he pleases.

wei2coolman

United States60033 Posts

January 13 2015 00:25 GMT

#542

On January 12 2015 05:26 Slayer91 wrote:
I'm trying to read a bit more. So the argument is that you should give up pressure because of some arbitrary notion of scalings?
That's pretty much a terrible way to look at the game. The whole reason early game champs are good is because you can snowball an advantage. If early game heroes were only good if the other laner fed you kills every game they wouldn't be so prominent in pro games.

If you're stronger than them in the lategame it doesn't mean you're going to win if you get to lategame. Chances of you getting crushed on other lanes is quite high if they have a roaming assassin, the best thing you can do is harass the shit out of them because they are melee and you are ranged and you can keep them low on farm for as long as possible. Once they can all in you, you can still prevent them from roaming by following them so they can't do anything too risky because you can countergank them if they try to tank some tower shots or something.

However it doesn't mean you should just try to fight them all the time, completely giving up pressure as a mid laner is pretty much the definition of losing the lane though, because its the lane that is most impacted by roaming.

Well it's pretty champion dependent though, cuz if you're something like Poppy or Jax who's a late scaling beast, going even in lane is more than fine.

Anyhow, I don't see how Lux scales harder than fizz or zed... She can't really counter their split push against either of them. Her item timings are all weaker than theirs. The second fizz get lichbane, Lux gets 100-0'd all the time, and Zed with BotRK should just rofl stomp Lux in the same way.

I could see an argument that her augmentation with shields and her AoE makes her better in lategame teamfights, but in those cases the Fizz's and Zed's abilities get diminished in lategame because more along the lines of defensive item picks from the ADC, and less so Lux's W.

Slayer91

Ireland23335 Posts

January 13 2015 00:30 GMT

#543

It's not a matter of going even in lane or not going even in lane or whatever like you can apply to top lane. (At any rate jax isn't really a lategame champ, he's got good sustained damage for a bruiser but nothing special, he is a pretty strong laner against a lot of people, and he isn't played when he can't do well in lane)

In top lane even if you are nasus farming at tower 24/7, roaming to try to kill a midlaner who can farm from tower range is a pretty difficult thing to do,you're playing some bruiser and you pretty much have to go behind them or even from behind their tower to get a kill and it's pretty risky. It's far more dangerous for an assassin who can threaten to roam bot (much easier kills, 2x the impact as well) top, or either jungle so not only is your champ more suited to the types of fights, you have a much easier time coordinating with your jungler.

Sonnington

United States1107 Posts

January 13 2015 00:45 GMT

#544

On January 13 2015 09:19 Amui wrote:

Show nested quote +

It isn't. It doesn't matter if you ward, because if the enemy jungler+mid walks into your jungle to contest something, at the end of the day you're not making the play, they are. Map awareness and communication doesn't make up for the fact that while your jungle entrances may be warded, everything within is not, and neither you, nor your jungler can go facechecking bushes without risking a death against zed/fizz. Sure you can slowly scout everything with E, or ward your own jungle, but now you've completely given up map control and just trying to stop the snowball.

Jungle contests aren't as cut and dry as you make them seem. Some factors include the power spike of your jungler, the HP of either jungler, who starts the buff first, what abilities are on CD, etc. Clean and well coordinated jungle invades are really difficult to pull off in soloq due to its nature. If you're asking how good Lux is at jungle fights. From my experience Lux isn't bad at jungle fights or helping out your jungler escape from their own invades due to her utility and how easy it is to land banding from FOW.

pearls

13 Posts

January 13 2015 02:05 GMT

#545

On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote:
Jungle contests aren't as cut and dry as you make them seem. Some factors include the power spike of your jungler, the HP of either jungler, who starts the buff first, what abilities are on CD, etc

I don't think you posted anything about specific jungle match ups. Not to mention even if Zed/Fizz just runs in by himself they will be getting vision control and information.

On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote:
Clean and well coordinated jungle invades are really difficult to pull off in soloq due to its nature.

By this logic we could also assume that pinging for your team mates doesn't mean that Zed/Fizz won't kill them any ways?

On January 13 2015 09:45 Sonnington wrote: If you're asking how good Lux is at jungle fights. From my experience Lux isn't bad at jungle fights or helping out your jungler escape from their own invades due to her utility and how easy it is to land banding from FOW.

Great your jungler escaped, now there is zero pressure on the map and your top/bot lane can get pushed in'd and/or all in'd.

I think you are underestimating what a Zed/Fizz player can and will do. Sure being able to snowball is great and in that case the game is probably over, but if your letting any of the "meta" assassins free farm your carries in team fights are not going to be alive for very long. Specifically Zed is strong because he is able to farm with Q and not get shut down in lane compared to other assassins. Yes he does "fall off" once everyone has zhonya or QSS but if your AD runs into Zed QSS isn't going to matter in the majority of cases. Zhonya? Sure for certain champions it makes it a lot easier to kill Zed but Lux isn't one of those. It's not like Zed isn't going to purchase a single MR item, not to mention at best they are going to walk away while at worst they will just wait and kill you.

As for Zed in team fights, Zed is arguably one of the more versatile assassins.Sure you don't have the AoE combo of Talon but your still able to put out a lot of damage with triple shadow Q/E. Late game your still going to have decent scaling with your % hp passive, and free AD from "W" passive.

edit 1: Also I am guessing your probably talking about team fights, but it's not like Zed doesn't have a team that is diving or doing damage to your back line as well. If they can't instantly kill someone they are just going to clean up fights which is what most people will do any ways. As for exhaust, cleanse and QSS exist.

edit 2: Reading some of your replies, I think you heavily under value the importance of having control of mid lane. Not to mention you seem to be assuming the other team is not going to contest vision.

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