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The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
Real easy to see that once you get to big AP values, these guys are all outdamaging Lux, both in burst damage and in sustained damage. What's critical though is that Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna late game typically will have the damage to 100-0 a carry, while Lux will not.
Lux also gets gibbed by Banshee and QSS more than any of these champions.
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On January 10 2015 12:17 Ketara wrote:
The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
Real easy to see that once you get to big AP values, these guys are all outdamaging Lux, both in burst damage and in sustained damage. What's critical though is that Ziggs/Xerath/Orianna late game typically will have the damage to 100-0 a carry, while Lux will not.
Lux also gets gibbed by Banshee and QSS more than any of these champions.
Again, you're going into bases and AP ratios but not factoring in how they're used, the windup times, how telegraphed the ability is, the risk involved in using the ability effectively, or how easy/likely it is you'll hit your abilities in a team fight. Or how many members of the enemy team you'll hit with your abilities.
I also find it interesting how you factored in only one proc of Lux's shield late game and both procs of Lux's shield early game. Isn't it likely Lux's shield will still come back to her late game? Shouldn't we might want to also factor in how much that shield will also shield her team mates?
That's what makes Lux a boss. She can potentially shield her team for 1800ehp base with a total of 3.50ap ratio. If that's -all- Lux did late game she would be ridiculously strong.
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That's without the shield. Lux's shield doesn't do damage.
Her shield is what makes her strong late game. Her late game damage is kind of bad.
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Baa?21247 Posts
On January 10 2015 13:36 Ketara wrote:
That's without the shield. Lux's shield doesn't do damage.
Her shield is what makes her strong late game. Her late game damage is kind of bad.
On January 10 2015 12:17 Ketara wrote:
The thing is because Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have higher AP ratios, by the end of the game their burst is higher than Lux's is.
Lux's burst combo is 1154+225% AP damage. Her main damage skill is a 6s cooldown with CDR.
Ziggs' is 1065+265%. (not counting passive) His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Xeraths is 1610+329%. His main damage skill is a 3s cooldown with CDR.
Oriannas is 1110+240%. Her main damage skill is a 1.8s cooldown with CDR.
On January 10 2015 05:11 Ketara wrote:
Lux's base damages are higher than most champions at low levels.
If you compare say, a level 3 Lux vs. other, similar "safe" mid lane mages (Ziggs, Xerath, Orianna) and about normal AP (40ish at 3), this is what you get.
Lux:
236 damage, 188 shielding (424 total)
Xerath:
334 damage
Orianna:
307 damage, 96 shielding (396 total) (figuring 3 autos)
Ziggs:
353 damage (figuring half a minefield hitting you)
You count shield as damage when it suits you and discount it when it doesn't.
Stop cherry-picking facts to bolster your argument and address his points, otherwise please stop spreading misinformation. You have yet to address the differing cooldowns, ranges, and a variety of other factors that makes a 1-to-1 comparison of damage/shield value/AP ratios misleading. You can't count CDs and say Ziggs/Xerath/Ori have less CD than Lux, therefore they do more damage, while ignoring CDs for early game comparisons. You can't have it both ways.
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Cooldowns really don't matter too much in the early game, since what's restricting you in the early game is mana, not cooldowns.
I'm not spreading misinformation, and I really don't want you in this thread Cheep. If you're going to post, try to be constructive.
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But here, here's some not cherry picked facts.
Lux, in the early game, wins trades against most other champions, because her base values are very high, and her cooldowns, while restrictive, don't matter in the early game because mana is what restricts you there, not cooldowns.
Late in the game, because her AP ratios are lower than most other champions and her cooldowns are high (when cooldown matters and mana does not), she falls off a little.
I count shielding as "damage" when I'm looking at the comparison of an early game trade, because damage shielded contributes to who wins the trade.
I don't count shielding in a comparison of who does more burst damage late game, because the shield doesn't do damage. It's not a comparison of late game skill efficiency or anything like that. How about, instead of coming in the thread just to call me out, you provide the numbers for once, since mine are so bad.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
The big problem is that you see it in a perfect vacuum as Sonnington wrote many times and you just ignored it
Again, you're going into bases and AP ratios but not factoring in how they're used, the windup times, how telegraphed the ability is, the risk involved in using the ability effectively, or how easy/likely it is you'll hit your abilities in a team fight. Or how many members of the enemy team you'll hit with your abilities.
And I am sure that Lux still has enough AP to 100-0 an adc. You need to count the shield because in a fight where there is a lux you need to substract the shield from the possible burst damage.
Why dont you and Sonnington try out laning 1 vs 1 maybe both of you learn something new
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Baa?21247 Posts
On January 10 2015 14:49 Ketara wrote:
But here, here's some not cherry picked facts.
Lux, in the early game, wins trades against most other champions, because her base values are very high, and her cooldowns, while restrictive, don't matter in the early game because mana is what restricts you there, not cooldowns.
Late in the game, because her AP ratios are lower than most other champions and her cooldowns are high (when cooldown matters and mana does not), she falls off a little.
I count shielding as "damage" when I'm looking at the comparison of an early game trade, because damage shielded contributes to who wins the trade.
I don't count shielding in a comparison of who does more burst damage late game, because the shield doesn't do damage. It's not a comparison of late game skill efficiency or anything like that. How about, instead of coming in the thread just to call me out, you provide the numbers for once, since mine are so bad.
When trading, it's quite possible that someone with lower CDs than Lux can get off more than one spell rotation, which makes your add-all-the-numbers approach moot if it doesn't account for that.
In addition, you are assuming that Lux gets max value out of both trips of her shield in a trading situation, which is gain highly unrealistic, making a 1-to-1 shield -to-damage conversion misleading.
League is not a Spreadsheet Simulator, where adding up numbers shows how the game plays out.
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Okay, here are some answers to your concerns.
To start with, when we're talking about early game trading in regards to these four champions, the only spell any of them have that's lower than about a 10 second cooldown are Ori Q and Ziggs Q. Early game trades don't last for an entire 10 seconds, in general, because in general one person or the other will be dead before then.
It's def. possible for Orianna to get multiple Q's off in a trading situation, which is part of what makes Orianna a difficult matchup, which is already outlined in the guide. Orianna is tricky to play against because if you just trade spells she will win, and if you do a long trade with lots of autos she will win. What you have to do against Orianna is trade spells, go in for just a couple autos to pop passives, and then back off. You can win if you trade like that, and it's certainly a lot easier after she got that big base AD nerf than it was a year ago.
The trick against Ziggs is to only trade with him while his passive is down, which is really easy since he has to use it to farm.
As to talking about max value Lux shields, only counting half her shield her early game trading value in those figures is 330, which is equivalent to trades from Ziggs and Xerath. Basically any value from the second shield gives you a winning trade, and it's not as hard as you might think to get value from it.
But, I'm tired of this. I'm really, really tired of this. League of Legends isn't a spreadsheet simulator, but that doesn't mean that doing math and running figures doesn't have value. And if it doesn't, what does? Your summoner ranking? Your experience? Because if we go by that, Navi's post was basically ignored, and I have the most experience with Lux of anybody here and I am being criticized.
Basically, this started with the question of "should you run flat CDR on Lux", and it has spiraled into this giant thing where I'm being attacked for every post that I make by people who have no intention of putting the same sort of professionalism and seriousness into the thread that I do. I already had to get Heyoka to kick Cheep out of this thread once, and I don't want to do it again.
I can see that this is how this shit is going to go now that the forum has moved, and I don't want to have any part of it. I think I'm done here. I'd suggest just closing the thread, and let somebody else deal with making a Lux guide.
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On January 10 2015 15:21 Ketara wrote:
Okay, here are some answers to your concerns.
To start with, when we're talking about early game trading in regards to these four champions, the only spell any of them have that's lower than about a 10 second cooldown are Ori Q and Ziggs Q. Early game trades don't last for an entire 10 seconds, in general, because in general one person or the other will be dead before then.
It's def. possible for Orianna to get multiple Q's off in a trading situation, which is part of what makes Orianna a difficult matchup, which is already outlined in the guide. Orianna is tricky to play against because if you just trade spells she will win, and if you do a long trade with lots of autos she will win. What you have to do against Orianna is trade spells, go in for just a couple autos to pop passives, and then back off. You can win if you trade like that, and it's certainly a lot easier after she got that big base AD nerf than it was a year ago.
The trick against Ziggs is to only trade with him while his passive is down, which is really easy since he has to use it to farm.
As to talking about max value Lux shields, only counting half her shield her early game trading value in those figures is 330, which is equivalent to trades from Ziggs and Xerath. Basically any value from the second shield gives you a winning trade, and it's not as hard as you might think to get value from it.
But, I'm tired of this. I'm really, really tired of this. League of Legends isn't a spreadsheet simulator, but that doesn't mean that doing math and running figures doesn't have value. And if it doesn't, what does? Your summoner ranking? Your experience? Because if we go by that, Navi's post was basically ignored, and I have the most experience with Lux of anybody here and I am being criticized.
Basically, this started with the question of "should you run flat CDR on Lux", and it has spiraled into this giant thing where I'm being attacked for every post that I make by people who have no intention of putting the same sort of professionalism and seriousness into the thread that I do. I already had to get Heyoka to kick Cheep out of this thread once, and I don't want to do it again.
I can see that this is how this shit is going to go now that the forum has moved, and I don't want to have any part of it. I think I'm done here. I'd suggest just closing the thread, and let somebody else deal with making a Lux guide.
You've done well with this IMO and it'd be a shame if you stopped cause of this.
I mean like i don't see anything factually incorrect in what Ketera's been saying (though i personally think Lux ult lategame seems a bit underappreciated but w/e).
I don't even know why someone would suggest CDR quints on any mana based champ for early game purposes (or hell, any purpose). It's like saying Anivia should take CDR so she does...what? Waveclear/trade more often? Have fun with that. With the current iteration of blue buff and chalice, CDR quints can't be good in lane for anything really. I can't think of anyone who would benefit off that (cept for Veigar for dem stacks, though that's pretty troll) and not fall flat on their face with mana issues.
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On January 09 2015 18:27 Sonnington wrote:
...I feel Lux is a perfect counter to assassins like Zed and Fizz ...
Would be interested in your reasoning why, as anyone I have talked with would disagree.
On January 10 2015 04:47 Sonnington wrote:
...typically have to farm the same way PowerofEvil farmed vs Bjergsen at IEM San Jose.
PoE never picked Lux into Bjerg, he played Leblanc into Xerath and Syndra against Azir. He did play Lux into Hai's Syndra, but then again Hai isn't exactly known for having a dominate lane phase.
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Ketara, I still think you need to Q at level 1, or minimally skill E after 1:50.
I think this is the second time I saw you skilling E at level one in an IH game, got into a level 1 fight, then missed the opportunities because you chose a weak slow (E) instead of a bind (Q).
It might be just a personal playstyle choice, I am not sure, but I never skill up at level 1 until laning phase start (with the exception of Twisted Fate, who basically has to start W). For many champions, there is an optimal skill for level 1 for laning and one for level 1 fights - as a result it may be better if you don't skill up anything until you are sure you will be moving into the laning phase without any level 1 fights. Here are some examples:
1. Xerath: for laning W is better; for level 1 fight E is far superior.
2. Ahri: for laning Q is better; for level 1 fight E is far superior.
3. Leona: depending on the situation (i.e. do you need a gapcloser or a stun), Q or E can be superior to the other.
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In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
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Now for something completely different! Here's my reasoning and rationale for Lux countering assassins, specifically Zed and Fizz.
The strategy is basically to play like a complete pussy during laning and outscale them with a ton of utility and aoe damage in team fights. Deny them kills in lane and Lux wins by default. Think of Zed as being on a timer, once your top/jungler gets armour, you get your hourglass, and your ADC gets QSS. His usefulness goes way down. Fizz is in a similar boat for a different reason. Fizz has a tough time farming mid game since his escape tool is also his only form of waveclear. If you deny these champions their snowball they fall off really hard.
In the same way Lulu has strong waveclear and can deny kills with her shield and ult. Lux denies assassins with her shield, which has higher base and ap scaling than Lulu's shield alone. So level shield second. Lux is also incredibly safe in lane due to her ability to farm at range and her binding.
The way you want to farm is like this. You'll want to throw an E out in a place where it'll hit all the minions. Stand in between the E and the enemy laner and auto the minions before the E goes off. You typically don't want to detonate the E before the full time because of the zoning potential. You also don't want to try and auto the minions after your E goes off because it'll give the enemy opportunities to attack or harass. Rarely will you actually want to harass the enemy laner by popping the E on them if it's not advantageous to your csing. Lux's early mana gating vs an enemy champ is so great it's not worth harassing. Another thing you can do, if you can't zone the enemy, is to detonate your E as a minion is about to die. Then throw an E on top of it to entirely clear the wave. If you're forced to farm like this you'll be down in CS to the enemy laner, but you can be down 30 cs at 20 minutes to a 0/0/0 Zed. It's ok, you deal so much AOE and have so much utility it doesn't matter.
The goal of laning isn't to kick the enemy out of lane or get a kill, it's to deny the assassin kills and farm relatively equal. If Zed wants to, he will outpush you. So it's important to have good wave control. Or even freeze your wave(pre level 6) in front of your tower. It's easy to freeze due to the Lux shield. The less risk you take the better. It's also incredibly important to let your side laners know when an assassin has left the lane. Spam the shit out of that the MIA ping. Also use the fallback ping to the lane that's more likely going to be ganked. Also, always have a pink in the river or around flank spots. Even if you break even in lane and deny him kills on you, he still might get fed on side laners. So go full mom-mode for your team.
If you're vs an AP assassin, GREAT! Buy a chalice on your first back and you're Gucci. If you're vs Zed or Talon, build doran ring and clothe along with hp/mana pots on my first and second back. You'll need that second doran ring for mana regen and crucially it'll give you extra HP if he wants to try to burst you down. Then you get your armguard into chalice.
Never upgrade the chalice. Sure CDR is great on Lux, you know what's even better? Damage. You won't need the cdr until you have respectable damage. Once you get a needlessly large rod you get both a huge shield and the damage you'll need to actually start poking people to the point they'll feel it. Until you get a deathcap or hourglass and voidstaff there's absolutely no need to upgrade your chalice. If you upgrade it early you'll be delaying your power spike and giving the assassin time to roam and get fed.
There's a point to be made about morello's and tear on Lux. But in this situation, you need hourglass to counter Zed and the MR from chalice to counter the AP assassins. So it's best to just get a chalice and forget about it until your major items are completed.
Laning patterns against Fizz and Zed go like this. If Fizz slides onto you, you shield the damage and get him off of you with E. If he troll poles away from your E damage, you use your binding. At level 6 you should never be in range of his slide unless you're in range of your tower. If you're in range of his Q and he can slide onto you without taking tower shots, he's going to ult you, get a bunch of autos off and troll pole your binding, Then you're dead. So just don't do that! If he has to troll pole to land a q or his ult you're fine because you can use binding to stop him from autoing you. So how does Lux farm if Fizz has such amazing lane control? When he goes last hit a minion you throw your E out as you'll outrange his slide by quite a bit. If you're at your tower and he dives you he won't be able to 100-0 you with chalice, shield, and heal. It simply won't be possible. In fact you probably won't even need heal.
Zed is even easier. If he tries to harass you with shurikens, they're easy to dodge since you farm mainly with E and passive. If he uses his shadow to harass you shield off his damage. If he ults you, you Q him to the face and get off a full combo. Typically Zeds know they can't ult you when your Q is up so they never even try.
As far as other assassins go like Kat, Akali, LeBlanc, and Talon. It's a little tougher to make them useless past laning phase. You pretty much have to hope your shield lands. Talon isn't as scary anymore without a silence. LeBlanc/Kat/Talon can't ever go aggressive in lane or they'll eat a binding/full combo to the face. Akali on the other hand has her shroud which gives her increased MR. Laning vs her is a lot like Fizz post level 6. Again, these champs have an easy time farming mid-late game and have much stronger team fights than Zed and Fizz if they haven't snowballed.
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On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote:
In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q.
Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land.
But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor.
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On January 11 2015 05:48 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote:
In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q. Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land. But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor.
You often don't get much damage out of level 1 harass, but as far as mana cost goes, it's basically free.
If we assume that you're going to throw an E at somebody the instant you both come into lane, you've got about 35 seconds between that point and when you hit level 2, which is on the first minion of the second wave.
Lux has 6.8 mana regen at 1, plus 3 from Dring, plus up to 36 regenned from Dring passive and Feast, plus potentially 3 from Utility masteries.
This is as much as 125.6 mana regenned before level 2.
So basically, if you compare using spells at level 1 to waiting for level 2, you can use E twice at level 1 and it only actually costs you as little as 15 mana.
You can do this with Q as well, but it's much harder to actually hit the guy, which is why E at 1 is so preferable.
Typically I try to use E twice at level 1, but wait on the third cast till I hit level 2, when the passive is doing 8 more damage.
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On January 11 2015 09:09 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2015 05:48 Sufficiency wrote:On January 11 2015 04:20 Ketara wrote:
In that particular game yesterday I took E because we said we weren't invading, and E gives you a good tool to scout for enemy invades. Then Cixah ran in after Ghandi anyway.
It's important to take E at level 1 if you can, and even more important in season 5 now that you aren't leashing. You want to use E on the enemy champion as soon as possible so you can use some mana and start getting your mana regen, which you can't really do if you start Q. Well you can do it with Q too, except it has longer cooldown, costs more mana, and harder to land. But in all seriousness, I am not convinced that level 1 harass is worth it because the mana to damage ratio is pretty bad. It's more for the psychological factor. You often don't get much damage out of level 1 harass, but as far as mana cost goes, it's basically free. If we assume that you're going to throw an E at somebody the instant you both come into lane, you've got about 35 seconds between that point and when you hit level 2, which is on the first minion of the second wave. Lux has 6.8 mana regen at 1, plus 3 from Dring, plus up to 36 regenned from Dring passive and Feast, plus potentially 3 from Utility masteries. This is as much as 125.6 mana regenned before level 2. So basically, if you compare using spells at level 1 to waiting for level 2, you can use E twice at level 1 and it only actually costs you as little as 15 mana. You can do this with Q as well, but it's much harder to actually hit the guy, which is why E at 1 is so preferable. Typically I try to use E twice at level 1, but wait on the third cast till I hit level 2, when the passive is doing 8 more damage.
Yes, I understand that when you E someone, your mana regen will kick in so it's "practically free harass".
But you also have to realize that your opponent has HP regen. So whenever he takes damage his HP regen will kick in so it's "practically free heal". I didn't do the math on this, but I am pretty sure you have to spend considerable mana to actually hurt your opponent at level 1.
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Under the same criteria, Lux would heal about 63.8 HP during this time period, which is considerably less than the amount of damage you can do.
Two E's by themselves will do about 120 damage, counting resists. Passive autos will do another 120 or so, or about 38 from the passives magic damage if you just want to look at that. This harass might also make them miss a CS, etc.
It's very much worth it to do.
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Problem with playing like a pussy(not only applicable to lux) against zed and fizz is
A. They get free farm and free 6. They're weakest 1-5, afterwards they're a kill threat to you and everybody else on your team. You completely cede map control around middle, and they get initiative on any roams because mid is going to constantly push and you can't fully clear the wave until they've cleared it. Especially with lux's range, you should be playing aggressively with autos, saving bind for counter aggression, at least early on.
B. Zed and Fizz both can dodge your skillshots. That wouldn't be so bad, except that you'll die before your next rotation of them comes up.
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EPT
