EPT[Champion] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 8
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Wala.Revolution
7584 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
although i do actually think lich bane can be good on lux | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On February 04 2014 04:52 Caller wrote: Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage. I don't understand your complaint. DFG has the highest amount of AP for any item in the game bar deathcap. The stipulation on buying this item is after Deathcap, which means that DFG has the highest amount of AP of any item in the game for the lowest price. It also has CDR. This means that, by your metric, DFG wins hands down for your final item. If just looking at the AP and CDR DFG should be placed ahead of Zhonya's. If just looking at final item damage minus the active liandrys beats it out, but Liandry's doesn't have any CDR. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lux uses autoattacks in fights, but doesn't have low cooldowns. The only reason the DFG vs Lich Bane argument is even a thing is because there really is no perfect 6th item for her. But, again, in terms of damage, a 6th item DFG outdamages a 6th item Lich Bane in basically any scenario, except for ones where you're A - missing lots of skillshots, or B - Not using the DFG active, or C - Fighting in AA range for unrealistically long periods of time. The arguments I've seen in this thread for Lich Bane seem to always be centered around basically an assumption that you aren't going to be playing well, which seems really weird to me. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On February 04 2014 04:52 Caller wrote: Speaking as somebody who actually played Lux, both DFG and Lich Bane are putting you too close to the enemy. The whole point of Lux is to be able to kite people and shoot lasers from far away. You're always better off getting more AP, then CDR, then tankiness, in that order. By the arguments you guys are making every hero should build trinity force and DFG because its cost effective damage. Your post makes me think that you're not aware that we're talking about DFG vs Lich Bane as 6th item, after already buying Athenes, Deathcap, Void and Zhonya. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On February 04 2014 08:10 Ketara wrote: What Lich Bane is really good on is champions who have very low cooldowns, but still have reasons to use autoattacks in fights. Ziggs is a good example. Lux uses autoattacks in fights, but doesn't have low cooldowns. The only reason the DFG vs Lich Bane argument is even a thing is because there really is no perfect 6th item for her. But, again, in terms of damage, a 6th item DFG outdamages a 6th item Lich Bane in basically any scenario, except for ones where you're A - missing lots of skillshots, or B - Not using the DFG active, or C - Fighting in AA range for unrealistically long periods of time. The arguments I've seen in this thread for Lich Bane seem to always be centered around basically an assumption that you aren't going to be playing well, which seems really weird to me. You advocated for no Ignite but think DFG is perfectly fine. Also, you can't put a price on 6% move speed. That shit saves lives. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I do not want you here. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
And it doesn't look like cheep is trolling you...and this a public forum so I don't exactly know how you're going to get him out of this thread without him doing something worthy of a ban. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
If I have to get a 6th item without looking at the game, I would get a Banshee's so I don’t get initiated on and die. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On February 04 2014 08:11 Ketara wrote: Your post makes me think that you're not aware that we're talking about DFG vs Lich Bane as 6th item, after already buying Athenes, Deathcap, Void and Zhonya. if you're simply arguing about what to get as the 6th item, then Liandries is the best choice for pure damage. meaning you could still do your athenes->deathcap->voidstaff-> zhonyas, but instead of getting dfg take liandries. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Basically, if you want a damage item, there are three candidates for 6th item for Lux: Liandry's Torment, Lich Bane and Deathfire Grasp. We've already talked about the theory, math and practical applications of these items quite a lot, and this is what we've found so far.
What I want to look at today is which item has the best buildup. Realistically you don't actually complete a 6th item in many games, but there are a decent number of games where you start building one. So I'm going to be looking at four items today: Haunting Guise, Needlessly Large Rod, Fiendish Codex and Sheen. We're going to see which adds the most damage both in terms of burst and sustained damage, and which adds the most defense via shields. Here is our stats with these items: Haunting Guise - 589.68 AP, 39.9%+36 mpen, 22.5% CDR Fiendish Codex - 596.505 AP, 39.9%+21 mpen, 32.5% CDR NLR - 665.775 AP, 39.9%+21 mpen, 22.5% CDR Sheen - 589.68 AP, 39.9%+21 mpen, 22.5% CDR, 109.4 damage Sheen proc Burst damage We're going to be looking at two things: a normal Q>E>R combo here, with only one passive proc, and then a secondary combo (Q>auto>E>auto) on a second spell rotation. I'm not going to add any Sheen damage to the first combo, but I will add Sheen to the second combo obviously. Just to make the math easier I'm not going to look at Spell/Blade Weaving. We're going to look at a squishy end game target MR, so 122.85 MR (bveil + MR runes + locket.), and since we're also looking at Sheen damage, armor on the same target (I picked Jinx at 79.8 armor). Note that the higher the targets MR is the less Haunting Guise will be favored, and the higher their armor the less Sheen will be favored. Main combo: 1190+205% AP Guise - 1821.19 NLR - 1750.78 Codex - 1653.47 Sheen - 1643.88 Secondary Combo: 880+160% AP magic + 218.8 phys Guise - 1520.59 NLR - 1469.24 Sheen - 1454.05 Codex - 1393.2 So basically, these numbers are not too surprising. Note that NLR and Guise break even at just above 200 target MR. Also note that the Sheen numbers in the second combo aren't that great, even with the extra Sheen damage. Sustained Damage For this I want to look at your expected DPS if you're casting Q and E on cooldown, to see what your long range damage output in a siege is. Basically this is going to show how much of a benefit we get from CDR. Since we're talking a siege situation I'm not going to assume any passive procs. Q: 260+70% AP first target, 11s cooldown Codex - 59.22 DPS Guise - 58.56 DPS NLR - 57.04 DPS Sheen - 52.86 DPS E: 240+60% AP per target, 10s cooldown Codex - 60.1 DPS Guise - 57.59 DPS NLR - 56.54 DPS Sheen - 51.98 DPS So we can see here that the Fiendish Codex is the best for sustained damage, also not surprising. If you want to look at sustained damage in closer range and add passive/sheen procs Guise gets a bit closer to Codex, but Codex is still the best. The DPS on the Sheen proc is about 7.75 per Q>E rotation, and it's behind NLR even with this addition. Shielding Benefit I want to see two things here. First, how many shield applications do we need to get in a fight for AP on NLR to be better than the 200 HP on Haunting Guise, and second, how much of a benefit is CDR giving to our shields. So for this I'm going to look at total amount shielded per application, and shielding per second per application. Shield amount: 180+35% AP per application NLR - 413.02 Codex - 388.77 Guise/Sheen - 386.88 So given this, you need about 8 shield applications in a fight for NLR to be better defensively than Haunting Guise. Shielding per second: 180+35% AP per target, 10s cooldown. Codex - 57.59 shielding per second per application NLR - 53.29 shielding per second per application Guise/Sheen - 49.92 shielding per second per application So, the results here are not suprising. I think it's safe to assume that you're going to get 2 shield casts per teamfight, and going to get 4 effective shields per spellcast, so NLR is probably better defensively than Haunting Guise outside of a 1v1. I think it's also safe to say that with the CDR, Codex and NLR are roughly equal in shielding, with NLR being better in the initial spellcast and Codex being better over time. TL;DR Conclusions Here's what I get from all of the above:
Personally, I like Fiendish Codex simply because it costs the least. After I buy this Codex is when I start constantly buying blue elixirs, which is kind of a big deal. Codex + blue elixir is about the same in burst as NLR (19 damage less in first combo, 1 damage over Sheen in second combo), but is far superior to all of the above for sustained damage and shielding and costs less. However, if you find yourself going shopping for a 6th item and already have 2000 gold, grabbing an NLR/Guise and an Elixir is probably going to be better than Codex + Elixir. Personally I think in terms of buildup Haunting Guise + Elixir is probably the strongest while Codex + Elixir is the most cost efficient. In terms of finished item DFG is probably better than Liandry, all things considered. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Also you're probably underselling the shield value slightly, since you can shield your entire team, and not just yourself. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I do think I'm underselling the shield value, because HP is only effective on Lux, while shielding is effective on whoever the enemy team is attacking, which is a big deal. Also because more HP makes you take more damage from % HP effects, and we all know every popular champion does some sort of % health damage these days. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
Count the number of Lich Banes, and count the number of Morellonomicons, and count the number of Liandry's Torments, and count the number of Deathfire Grasps. I'll give you a hint: it's something like "more than 0," "more than 0," "more than 0," "0." In addition to the aforementioned, let's look at a sample list of items that we see more than DFG: -Tear of the Goddess/Archangel's Staff/Seraph's Embrace -Abyssal Sceptre -Mejai's Soul Stealer A sample list of items that we see less than DFG: -Infinity Edge -Randuin's Omen -Wriggle's Lantern | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Please get out of my thread. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 07 2014 03:43 Ketara wrote: I do think I'm underselling the shield value, because HP is only effective on Lux, while shielding is effective on whoever the enemy team is attacking, which is a big deal. Also because more HP makes you take more damage from % HP effects, and we all know every popular champion does some sort of % health damage these days. Obviously shield > HP in the sense that your shield helps your teammates and HP doesn't. But otherwise the laughably small % health damage increase is far, far, far outweighed by the fact that a shield is temporary and HP is not. Only if the entire shield breaks on both applications, every single time, is it equal to its HP equivalent. In any given teamfight, by your math, each NLR shield application is only 27 more than a Haunting Guise. That means that in order for NLR to outscale Guise for tankiness, your shield has to break 8 times before you reach the breakeven point between NLR/Guise. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On February 07 2014 03:56 Ketara wrote: Yes Cheep, pro players make bad item choices. I know that's a surprise. You also might notice that only one game in all of those goes late enough to even buy a 6th item DFG, and that's Froggen who is well known for weird and unconventional/nonsensical item builds. Please get out of my thread. But with the power of MATH you can be a pro gamer too? Have you considered there are parts of this game that are insolvable by nature of extrinsic or non-modelable factors, but that could be easily revealed through empirical experience, i.e. the thousands of games a pro player has done. I mean in your own guide you state "I just don't like it" and "I feel that it is" but do so on a level presuming you understand this game better than people paid to play it and straight write off Morellonomicon despite it being a very common item choice. For a guide design for new players the last thing you do is shoehorn them into a a single build, especially one that may not even be the more optimal one in the majority of situations. Check your deductive rationality privilege. | ||
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Kyrie
1594 Posts
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