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On May 14 2013 14:55 ticklishmusic wrote: tried a couple games of tele-push
so the idea is definitely fun and workable, but we need to work on not giving up a ton of kills early.
And get someone else to play Jayce adc, I'm not very good at him.
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On May 15 2013 09:51 57 Corvette wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 14:55 ticklishmusic wrote: tried a couple games of tele-push
so the idea is definitely fun and workable, but we need to work on not giving up a ton of kills early. And get someone else to play Jayce adc, I'm not very good at him.
i can play him in da arams ._.
really liked that one game with us as jayce/janna top. the super fast 3 shots with janna shield is pretty nice, i think if we refine it a little we can abuse that incredibly hard to either poke down the lane opponent or the tower. should work about the same with lulu's shield, except it'll be a machine gun (and wont work on turrets).
pewpewpew x3
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FRIDAY TEST AGENDA: 05/17/2013
Official testing begins at 22:00 GMT (+00:00). If you cannot be present by the appointed time then come whenever you can. We'll be testing so long as we have researchers and working brains, so it will continue for many hours and into the night presuming there is interest. All testing will be coordinated from the TROLLS chat channel and through TeamLiquid's TeamSpeak.
This week we will do both inhouses and arranged games, depending upon attendance.
- Specific Subjects:
- AD Jungle Gragas
- AP Jungle TF
- Blue Corki
- Support Zilean
- Jayce AD
- Nami AD
- General Concepts:
- AP Junglers
- Abduction/Hook Compositions
- Changes:
- Added Jungle TF
- Added Blue Corki
- Removed Mid Fiora
- Removed Mid Maokai
- Removed Top Taric
- Removed Top Sejuani
Details:
Removed Subjects:+ Show Spoiler +A number of topics have been tested enough for our purposes. Further testing of these concepts requires a more stable, coordinated team practicing against players of a higher caliber. At the moment, T.R.O.L.L.S. does not have the resources to continue testing these topics in a meaningful way (though they remain fun). These topics include: - Support Nasus
- AD Thresh
- AP+Support Duo Lanes
- Tower Rush Compositions
- Mid Maokai
Some other topics are simply beyond our skill level to test effectively, and have also been removed. Specifically, Baron Rush compositions never worked largely due to execution issues inherent in a random gathering of players.
AD Jungle Gragas: Suggested by Red8D:+ Show Spoiler + Some testing has been done for Gragas, with fairly dismal results thus far. More testing should be done, but barring some rune/itemization breakthrough this may not work out.
AP Jungle TF: Tested by TarteAuSauce:+ Show Spoiler + Last week this was tested during one of the games under the category of AP junglers, and was a fairly decent success. This demands further, focused testing.
I need to go over the details with Tarte again. Hopefully he'll be around.
Blue Corki: Suggested by TheYango in GD:+ Show Spoiler + TheYango has theorized that Corki is actually a better candidate for the "blue build" than Ezreal. While I'm not sure he's technically better, TheYango has some good points. This build should be tested.
Support Zilean:+ Show Spoiler +Skill Order: QWQE R>Q>W>E Primary Items: Philo Stone, Kage's, Sightstone Secondary Items: Deathcap, Shurelya's, Crucible, Shard, Tear Abilities:- Heightened Learning: Beyond simply assuring that his team will generally have a level advantage, the exp boost gives all his lanes the potential to hit level 6 first. This provides a potential timing for a sudden kill.
- Time Bomb: When cast one bomb at a time this is a very sustainable and deadly form of harass. The high base damage and potent scaling makes Zilean one of the hardest hitting harass supports in the game, and also a good source of wave clear later.
- Rewind: More bombs, slows, and ultimates. This is why you make sure you cap CDR on Zilean.
- Time Warp: Speeding up a lane ganking jungler, slowing down an out of place opponent, helping a carry escape to safety. There are a plethora of applications for this ability. This is actually longest duration CC in the entire game, clocking in at 5.5 seconds, and with CDR Zilean can keep it up permanently.
- Chronoshift: The reason to use Zilean in any role. Having a GA available for every team fight is incredibly powerful, especially as it's independent of maximum health. With maximum CDR and back to back Rewinds, it has an effective cooldown of a mere 30 seconds.
Best AD Carries: - Twitch: The amount of early pressure this pair can put down is absolutely brutal, and having a get out of jail free card for Twitch later is extremely valuable.
- Graves: A tanky AD carry combined with a revive is extremely difficult to deal with.
- Kog'maw: Let's be clear, any hard carry with a revive every teamfight is difficult to deal with. Zilean's ability to help Kog'maw from getting overwhelmed by a hard push is also useful.
- Tristana: Having a revive available for overly gung-ho Tristana players is a literal life-saver. Zilean's strong mid-game, even as a support, helps make up for Tristana's lack of one.
- Jayce: Stacking movement speed boosts is fun, and slowed targets are easy targets for Shock Blast.
Notes: Like Nasus, Zilean needs capped CDR to truly realize his potential. Unlike Nasus, he also needs a lot of mana and mana regeneration to support his spell usage. Acquiring some considerable amount of AP is also desirable as it greatly increases the potency of his ultimate, clear, and harass.
Jayce AD:+ Show Spoiler +Skill Order: QEQW R>Q>W>E Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Brutalizer Secondary Items: Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, Warmog's Armor, Infinity Edge Best Supports:: - Leona: Her ability to lock down a target gives Jayce ample time to set up a Shock Blast -> all-in, and his acceleration gate can greatly help her initiation.
- Taric: His stun and armor shred is a perfect setup for a Shock Blast -> all-in. The sustain he brings and beneficial auras are icing on the cake.
- Alistar: The combination of not one, but two displacement abilities is extremely nasty for both engaging and disengaging.
- Zilean: Throwing a bomb on Jayce's head as he zooms headlong into a heavily harassed opponent, followed by a revive in case of emergency, is a thing of beauty.
- Nasus: It's impossible to dodge Shock Blast when Withered, and oh do they hurt when you have zero armor.
Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.Notes: Jayce does not fit the standard AD carry paradigm. Unlike almost every other AD carry, Attack Speed is largely an irrelevant stat for him. Instead, Jayce derives an incredible amount of power from CDR. With capped CDR Jayce's Cannon-W is roughly equivalent to a 130% Attack Speed steroid ( without accounting for the increased damage). In many ways it is superior to such a steroid, as Jayce can burst an opponent with four quick attacks, disengage, and then reengage once the cooldown returns. Combined with his built-in speed boosts and above average (for an AD carry) movement speed, Jayce can afford to completely ignore AS/Movement itemization vital to other AD carries. Jayce excels as an AD who can largely protect himself. His Hammer-Q -> Hammer-W combo on an adjacent target slows them and creates distance simultaneously (while also doing significant damage). Switching back to Cannon mode gives him a 25% Armor/MR reduction on the aggressor, which assures that the incoming burst will hurt like hell. With capped CDR this pattern can be repeated every 3.6 seconds, putting all but the most dogged of opponents in an impossible position. Jayce's primary weakness is mana, but then other prominent ADs are also common recipients of Blue buff (Ezreal, Urgot). Jayce also works best with aggressive supports who can create space for Jayce to harass and farm.
Nami AD:+ Show Spoiler +Skill Order: QEW R>W>E>Q Primary Items: Bloodthirster, Infinity Edge Secondary Items: Blade of the Ruined King, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper Best Supports:: - Leona: Nami's sustain makes up for Leona's primary weakness, and it's extremely easy to follow up Leona's CC with Nami's. This super-heavy CC combination should be able to punish a large variety of lanes.
- Thresh: Any successful hook should essentially be a kill given proper coordination. The sheer amount of CC in this lane should make it an easy gank even for oddball junglers who have no CC or even gap closers.
- Alistar: Nami's speed boost, slow from her autos, and (again) chain CC makes this a frightening lane. The double sustain combo should also make it extremely resilient.
- Sona: Double poke, double sustain. Nami's CC makes up for Sona's lake thereof, and she can easily help keep Sona out of danger.
Abilities excluded in favor of simply discussing such matters in the Notes section.Notes: Nami lacks any true AD steroid or scaling, but her base Attack Speed and level scaling are decent. While she won't be terrible late game, she won't be able to match the power of late-game carries. As a result she, like Ashe, relies heavily on utility to be useful later, whatever her item build. Nami's built in sustain makes her strong with supports lacking it, and her CC complements her support's. A Nami lane should thus be played aggressively, wearing down opponents until an opportunity arises for an all-in.
Top Taric: Requested by 57 Corvette
Top Sejuani:+ Show Spoiler +This showed considerable promise in last week's testing. While the matchup and execution thereof didn't make it definitive, the potential for Sejuani as a top laner should be examined. Skill Order: QWE R>W>Q>E Primary Items: Warmog's Armor, Locket Secondary Items: Haunting Guise, Aegis/Bulwark, Sunfire Cape, Randuin's Omen, Spirit Visage, Rylai's, Void Staff Abilities:- Frost: Not as amazing as a Frozen Mallet, but useful nonetheless.
- Arctic Assault: Sejuani's gap closer/escape. The cooldown is nearly halved by rank 5, making it a priority to max this second. Note that it applies Frost, and your escape can be blocked as it stops upon collision with an enemy champion.
- Northern Winds: This is Sejuani's core ability. Its Health -> Damage ratio is based on rank, making it important to max this first. A Frosted target takes 396 + 18% of Sejuani's Maximum Health in damage over the duration, making it hard for any opponent to win in an extended trade.
- Permafrost: The slow's efficacy increases greatly with rank, but little else improves significantly. While a very valuable skill it's arguably the least important to rank up.
- Glacial Prison: An incredible initiation tool or gank assist. Sejuani can suddenly dive forward with Arctic Assault and launch this long range stun, or simply dive headlong into the enemy team herself before firing it point blank. Combined with Permafrost as soon as the stun fades, Sejuani is a strong initiator.
Notes: It's important to Sejuani to make every trade an extended one. Brief, fleeting trades hurt her significantly. For this reason Sejuani should hold onto her Q whenever dealing with opponents who possess an escape, so that she can close on them and punish them for trading.
AP Junglers:+ Show Spoiler +Notes: We've had significant success with Jungle Karthus, and given discussion of Jungle Morgana I'd like to expand our testing in this area. There are a number of AP champions with plenty of potential in the jungle, and who deserve analysis. Testing for this week will focus on the following champions: - Morgana
- Gragas
- Fizz
- Any other possibilities who are not wholly screwed without blue on their first clear.
I'm really emphasizing blue-independence because you simply can't assume you'll have blue, especially as unorthodox junglers tend to invite invasions. While champions like Cassiopeia, Malzahar, and Galio might seem like good options, they simply cannot jungle with any effectiveness unless they have blue buff.
Abduction/Hook Compositions:+ Show Spoiler +Notes: In the past we played around with the Hook composition, consisting of Darius Top, Diana Mid, Nautilus Jungle, Thresh AD, and Blitz Support. It was obnoxious, but brittle in the face of bans and counter-picks. However, the possibility of expanding the notion out into an Abduction composition (which has fallen by the way side) came up in discussion. The most important pick for this strategy is Thresh, as he can literally play any role while still fitting into the composition. All other picks are essentially optional, but should consist of a balance between isolating an opponent and preventing the opposing team from rushing to their rescue. As such, potential picks include (but are not limited to): - Solo A: Darius, Singed, Lee Sin
- Solo B: Diana, Orianna, Anivia, Gragas, Ahri
- Jungle: Nautilus, Volibear, Lee Sin, Hecarim, Skarner
- Support: Blitz, Alistar, Janna
- AD: Tristana, Vayne, Jayce, Urgot
Some key champions to ban or counter-pick include Kayle, Lulu, Shen, Thresh or any other champion who excels at saving an isolated ally.
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I nominate bot lane Xerath for testing. Played 2 games of it so far and it seems pretty solid. by that i mean xerath + support soraka seems to work well, i think nami would be pretty good too
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On that note, Mana Manipulator opening on supports. 5 mp5 may not seem like much, but I know I always notice the difference between going 21/9/0 and 21/0/9 on ADs. That 3 mp5 is easily an extra ability or two, so Mana Manipulator would be a huge help.
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If I am there tonight, I may also test the Teleport on CC supports thing I was doing monday, just on other supports like Alistar, Thresh or Blitz.
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i be there but a bit later, around 19h east.
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After playing AD Nami (paired with Janna), I think it is pretty legit, especially with the recent buff to her passive and stun duration. It feels obnoxious in lane (even with Monte moving forward to dodge my stuns -_-). Her attack speed is on the lower end of the scale, but it tends to not matter because of the amount of cc she brings to team fights. I could see her potentially having a difficult time in lane against Cait and Ashe due to their range.
It is extremely easy to burn through mana as AD Nami. I eventually got a chalice after my IE, and I never really had problems with mana after that point. But prior to that, I felt like I was constantly running out of mana, and I didn't feel like I was spamming my spells.
I was against blue build Corki though, so it would probably be good to get some more trials against more commonly encountered stuff. But blue build Corki feels pretty legit too (though probably better in mid lane). Also testing out support synergy would be good. Sona and Leona in particular are probably amazing with AD Nami. Wombo combos ahoy.
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Similarly Xerath Soraka seems like a really strong bot lane. We just spammed spells and took over. Once I hit 6 it was free kills every time someone came bot, and between me and Monte's blue build corki (well, mostly monte's blue build corki) we just poked them so hard.
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On May 19 2013 02:06 Tooplark wrote: Similarly Xerath Soraka seems like a really strong bot lane. We just spammed spells and took over. Once I hit 6 it was free kills every time someone came bot, and between me and Monte's blue build corki (well, mostly monte's blue build corki) we just poked them so hard.
That blind pick really screwed us (coughmontecough) >_>
If we knew anything about that bot lane, we wouldn't have picked Cait/Nid with mana manip to try and poke down. I think we need to try it against some hard engage lanes with Leona/ Graves or something similar.
Soraka is good with AD Nami. You give up additional CC that you'd get with most other supports, but it solves your mana problems and the extra heals means its basically impossible to get pushed out of lane.
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On May 19 2013 02:37 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2013 02:06 Tooplark wrote: Similarly Xerath Soraka seems like a really strong bot lane. We just spammed spells and took over. Once I hit 6 it was free kills every time someone came bot, and between me and Monte's blue build corki (well, mostly monte's blue build corki) we just poked them so hard. That blind pick really screwed us (coughmontecough) >_> If we knew anything about that bot lane, we wouldn't have picked Cait/Nid with mana manip to try and poke down. I think we need to try it against some hard engage lanes with Leona/ Graves or something similar. Soraka is good with AD Nami. You give up additional CC that you'd get with most other supports, but it solves your mana problems and the extra heals means its basically impossible to get pushed out of lane.
Yeah, I think hard engages would be the best counter. I imagine you'd have to run a support other than Soraka to deal with that.
In related news, I'm now 5-0 with bot lane Xerath against a variety of lanes.
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I was playing a normal yesterday for fwotd, and next thing i knew i found myself facing thresh/lux in botlane, with an ad tristana mid. I was sona with a twitch, and everytime one of us got hit by anything, it was at least summoner burn, if not kill. We got roflstomped, probably because we didn't react properly, but nevertheless that botlane combo seemed really strong to me. The lux went full ap carry build and thresh was normal tanky support thresh.
Is it just me or could this be worth testing?
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On May 18 2013 22:48 zer0das wrote: After playing AD Nami (paired with Janna), I think it is pretty legit, especially with the recent buff to her passive and stun duration. It feels obnoxious in lane (even with Monte moving forward to dodge my stuns -_-). Her attack speed is on the lower end of the scale, but it tends to not matter because of the amount of cc she brings to team fights. I could see her potentially having a difficult time in lane against Cait and Ashe due to their range.
It is extremely easy to burn through mana as AD Nami. I eventually got a chalice after my IE, and I never really had problems with mana after that point. But prior to that, I felt like I was constantly running out of mana, and I didn't feel like I was spamming my spells.
I was against blue build Corki though, so it would probably be good to get some more trials against more commonly encountered stuff. But blue build Corki feels pretty legit too (though probably better in mid lane). Also testing out support synergy would be good. Sona and Leona in particular are probably amazing with AD Nami. Wombo combos ahoy.
Blue build Corki definitely seems legit, but I think it's premature to postulate that it's better in the mid lane. There were several factors which made that lane harder than it needed to be. First, I got a call from my fiance the very moment we attacked you at golems. That messed up the invasion and the first 30 seconds or so of laning fairly severely, which put the lane in a tenuous position. Next, Corvette was trying his Teleport support strategy again, but unlike our previous test he didn't wait until we had cowed our lane opponents with aggression before he started looking across the map for gank opportunities, and I didn't properly communicate our plight. As a result he was slow to react whenever anything happened. There was also a very ill-advised initiation when we knew that Shen ult was available which resulted in disaster. Despite these setbacks we managed to eventually draw the lane roughly even, but the game collapsed at that point because HPoirot was legendary on Zyra. Given the circumstances, conclusion as to where blue build Corki works best should be deferred (though it definitely works very well).
On the note of what works, I've come to the conclusion that Jungle TF does not. It falls into that treacherous category of junglers who are okay if they get a leash and can clear without interruption, but are absolutely screwed if the leash is bad/non-existent or get counter-jungled early. The risk is simply not worth the reward, despite the fact that it's fun when it's able to get off the ground.
Other than that, I agree that the blind pick messed up the bottom lane in the first match, but profess my innocence and blame the client because I definitely selected the appropriate option and it didn't take (it happened the second match too, but I caught it that time).
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Just for clarity, when you're talking about "blue build" you're referring to:
Manamura, IBG, LW, spirit elder, BT/botk, CDR boots
As a build that focuses specifically on kiting and poke rather than the stand and attack form of ADC right? Is it specifically focusing on a Manamura timing window?
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Actually that particular item was lower priority. I did grab Tear, but finishing IBG and Elder Lizard happened before Manamune/Muramana. I typically didn't buy CDR boots, but bought Tabi/Merc's. In a way Corki has much more in common with Ryze than Ezreal, unless he has a very strong front line he needs to focus on defensive stats first. I also went with BV for MR/Health over BT/BotRK very often.
The point of the build in Ezreal's case is kiting and poke. The point of the build in Corki's case is less about the poke and more about early burst into later tanky sustained damage.
The big timing is really IBG.
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Ran a Xerath/Raka botlane that had quite a bit of trouble with Yorick/Cait. Yorick's ghoulspam kept up with my arcanopulse spam and even a raka feeding me mana didn't give me enough of an edge before he went back and bought a philo. Certainly not a hard counter, but overall a difficult lane to handle.
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Can you pick up a creep as syndra and thresh lantern away? Im thinking one of the buffs.
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I'm requesting some studies in Low Economy Games. I'm implementing low-econ strategies here in Brazil, but the amount of practice we get with them is low. I need more conclusions from it.So far we've been dominating the scene with it, but I want to know when people struggle with it. The basic idea is: Pressure a lot early. Swap lanes in the beggining if you're on red side or against a tough laning situation (say, Kassadin vs a mage). Your jungler must be really strong early game and good at dueling (Lee Sin is probably the best). After the first tower falls, your team starts moving as two cells: Top + Jungler and Mid+Bot. Generally, you have strong disengages so you can slowly damage towers. Support don't build any GP/5. You go straight to Sightstone + Oracle's. You starve the enemy team from their jungle gold by invading and dominating map vision. A sample composition would be: Top Jayce, Jungle Lee Sin, mid Nidalee, bot Caitlyn + Janna. I want your thoughts and experiments in this.
This may not be able to go perfect in testing labs, as it requires a senior team coordination skills, so lets start at least with an open debate about this. I'm concerned that global strategies are a direct counter to this, but I want to know other weaknesses and strengths. By leaving your thoughts below you are helping BR e-Sports! :D
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You're basically describing VES vs MRN Game 2. I don't think our typical TROLLS crew has the coordination to pull that off, given that we actually attempted it once on a random weekday and failed miserably.
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Damnit, and here was I thinking you could do my job for me :|
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