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On November 06 2012 06:16 JerKy wrote:
lol
i play fiora top all the time
i consider her an ad carry, so i build ad items on her (i stay away from bruiser builds on fiora, she's much scarier with ad items)
generally get phage -> BT -> LW/some defensive item -> situational items
you stay back then jump onto enemy ranged ad carries = gg
wriggles is situationally good on fiora
stay back and then jump on ad carry is definition of assassin
ad carry focuses tanks
anyway armourpen stack is really good on her because of hte free AD and AS but so is wits end and madreds for her ulti. So you either pick on hit items+tank items or go for ghostblade and LW and maybe BT with defensive items like GA wriggles early if you need it and hexdrinker
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On November 07 2012 06:57 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 06:16 JerKy wrote:
lol
i play fiora top all the time
i consider her an ad carry, so i build ad items on her (i stay away from bruiser builds on fiora, she's much scarier with ad items)
generally get phage -> BT -> LW/some defensive item -> situational items
you stay back then jump onto enemy ranged ad carries = gg
wriggles is situationally good on fiora stay back and then jump on ad carry is definition of assassin ad carry focuses tanks anyway armourpen stack is really good on her because of hte free AD and AS but so is wits end and madreds for her ulti. So you either pick on hit items+tank items or go for ghostblade and LW and maybe BT with defensive items like GA wriggles early if you need it and hexdrinker
lolwat?
ad carry focuses tanks? I beg to differ on that
fiora is not an assassin. when i said she jumps onto enemy ad carries, i was naming A situation out of many where she is especially strong (that same situation applies to heroes like nocturne/riven/etc as well). my point here is that while people may want to jump in and ult immediately with fiora, if she's played as an AD carry (in terms of positioning/items/when to go in to attack), she's so much more potent
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On November 08 2012 18:39 JerKy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 06:57 Slayer91 wrote:On November 06 2012 06:16 JerKy wrote:
lol
i play fiora top all the time
i consider her an ad carry, so i build ad items on her (i stay away from bruiser builds on fiora, she's much scarier with ad items)
generally get phage -> BT -> LW/some defensive item -> situational items
you stay back then jump onto enemy ranged ad carries = gg
wriggles is situationally good on fiora stay back and then jump on ad carry is definition of assassin ad carry focuses tanks anyway armourpen stack is really good on her because of hte free AD and AS but so is wits end and madreds for her ulti. So you either pick on hit items+tank items or go for ghostblade and LW and maybe BT with defensive items like GA wriggles early if you need it and hexdrinker lolwat? ad carry focuses tanks? I beg to differ on that fiora is not an assassin. when i said she jumps onto enemy ad carries, i was naming A situation out of many where she is especially strong (that same situation applies to heroes like nocturne/riven/etc as well). my point here is that while people may want to jump in and ult immediately with fiora, if she's played as an AD carry (in terms of positioning/items/when to go in to attack), she's so much more potent
Obviously the tanks aren't your first choice but usually in teamfights that's how it goes down, and that's why IE PD LW is such a popular, universal adc build.
Oh I think you might be confused as to what we mean by ad carry. We mean ranged ADC.
That's kinda standard notation nowadays, adc = ranged ad carry, bruiser/assassin = terms to describe melee champs.
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Wanted some opinions from people better than me at this game about the match up versus Vlad. I've played the lane about a dozen times now and won lane every time. During the game or in post-game lobby the enemy team nearly always bitches about how Vladimir should win that lane and dismisses their Vlad as being bad. I've even had people "counter-pick" me and get Vlad but proceed to lose lane.
Now, what I don't get is why people think Vlad is a good counter to Fiora. His Q and auto attack range is shit and if he goes in to Q or auto a minion I can jump to him always. At levels 1-3 this is absurdly effective because I massively outdamage him even when tanking minions early on. Vlad either has to get zoned off creeps or get chunked/die.
You're probably thinking, "but he can just pool," and that is where you're wrong. His pool at level 1 is on a 26 second CD. My Q is on a 16 second CD and in Vlad lane I usually max it first or put 2-3 points in it early. You have a ten second window where Vlad either has to commit to a fight against you (and lose) or you just zone him. When he finally comes back to minions you jump on him again with Q and he pools. You usually win that trade too because of your initial damage plus pool damage to him (and if he retaliates with Q or E you get autos, maybe second Q before he pools).
I don't understand why people think he counters Fiora or is even a good match up. At best it's a skill match up and honestly I think it's a match up that heavily favors Fiora. Obvious solution is early jungle pressure to help Vlad from levels 1-5 (where you completely murder him). But then, if jungle pressure is necessary it should be pretty obvious who the match up favors.
Thoughts, opinions, experience from people who have played the match up from either side?
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United States3977 Posts
In my experience she stomps Vlad. By the time Vlad is level 7 and starts to kick in, you should have abused him so hard that your entire team is level 18 (and your carry is 20+) and your support has more gold banked than he's earned in all his games of LoL ever, combined.
In all seriousness, barring serious jungle ganks you should stomp all over him. Just QE to him and force the pool or get free hits, and you can just Q to him again afterwards (or back towards your creeps if you don't feel like chasing further).
Get a vamp and an early hexdunker imo. Your ult should mainly be used to turn jungle ganks into double kills. Even if it's your jungler and you have to kill vlad two times at once.
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On November 14 2012 16:34 Tooplark wrote:
In my experience she stomps Vlad. By the time Vlad is level 7 and starts to kick in, you should have abused him so hard that your entire team is level 18 (and your carry is 20+) and your support has more gold banked than he's earned in all his games of LoL ever, combined.
In all seriousness, barring serious jungle ganks you should stomp all over him. Just QE to him and force the pool or get free hits, and you can just Q to him again afterwards (or back towards your creeps if you don't feel like chasing further).
Get a vamp and an early hexdunker imo. Your ult should mainly be used to turn jungle ganks into double kills. Even if it's your jungler and you have to kill vlad two times at once.
See, that's pretty much what's happened every time I've laned him. It's not even fucking close. Just get annoyed when people flame their Vlad, "cause he's shit," and act like Fiora is a weak pick against him. Trying to make sure I'm not insane and/or not laning against bad Vlads.
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I don't even own Fiora, but from what I've seen and honestly, just by looking at her kit, she should be pretty good against ranged top. She's good at closing the gap and E lets her actually get some autos because of the MS. This lets her bypass those ranged champions that abuse their autoattacks and ranged spells during the early levels. It also helps that she hits like a fucking truck at low levels.
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Fiora is my go to champ for dominion. But when I get dragged into an SR game i'm hesitant to use her. Is she viable in the jungle? Last time I tried it felt slow and the ganks are pretty weak.
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On November 25 2012 16:51 Khul Sadukar wrote:
Fiora is my go to champ for dominion. But when I get dragged into an SR game i'm hesitant to use her. Is she viable in the jungle? Last time I tried it felt slow and the ganks are pretty weak.
clear slow, no cc. There are better junglers out there, jax is pretty good and similar to her.. right down to the gap closer q
i just think she gets outshined by others.
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On November 08 2012 21:12 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 18:39 JerKy wrote:On November 07 2012 06:57 Slayer91 wrote:On November 06 2012 06:16 JerKy wrote:
lol
i play fiora top all the time
i consider her an ad carry, so i build ad items on her (i stay away from bruiser builds on fiora, she's much scarier with ad items)
generally get phage -> BT -> LW/some defensive item -> situational items
you stay back then jump onto enemy ranged ad carries = gg
wriggles is situationally good on fiora stay back and then jump on ad carry is definition of assassin ad carry focuses tanks anyway armourpen stack is really good on her because of hte free AD and AS but so is wits end and madreds for her ulti. So you either pick on hit items+tank items or go for ghostblade and LW and maybe BT with defensive items like GA wriggles early if you need it and hexdrinker lolwat? ad carry focuses tanks? I beg to differ on that fiora is not an assassin. when i said she jumps onto enemy ad carries, i was naming A situation out of many where she is especially strong (that same situation applies to heroes like nocturne/riven/etc as well). my point here is that while people may want to jump in and ult immediately with fiora, if she's played as an AD carry (in terms of positioning/items/when to go in to attack), she's so much more potent Obviously the tanks aren't your first choice but usually in teamfights that's how it goes down, and that's why IE PD LW is such a popular, universal adc build. Oh I think you might be confused as to what we mean by ad carry. We mean ranged ADC. That's kinda standard notation nowadays, adc = ranged ad carry, bruiser/assassin = terms to describe melee champs.
More simply put:
An AD Carry is capable of shredding tanks, and does so. Typically in a teamfight, after killing the enemy frontline he/she proceeds to eliminate the backline.
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Vlad loses to Fiora for the same reason that he has a rough time against Irelia. They both have strong gap closers and have the ability to stick to him after they jump on him. Their gapclosers have a lower cooldown than Vlad's pool, and once they get into melee range they heavily outdamage him for a long while. The logic is pretty simple enough. It's the same way that J4 actually lanes pretty well against Vlad, and you can do the same with Olaf although here it's more about your Q slowing him in such a way that allows you to engage on Vlad hard if they aren't being careful. From my experiences as playing Vlad, who was my most played champion in S2, I've only really won the lane hard if the opponent made a catastrophic mistake early before the first blue pill because they don't understand the matchup or they just plain made a mistake, or due to jungle interventions that give me an edge. I think Fiora is easier to play against than Irelia, but I've only played the Fiora matchup like 2 times.
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On November 25 2012 16:51 Khul Sadukar wrote:
Fiora is my go to champ for dominion. But when I get dragged into an SR game i'm hesitant to use her. Is she viable in the jungle? Last time I tried it felt slow and the ganks are pretty weak.
Why would you waste yourself in the jungle? At best Fiora is mediocre in the jungle. Fiora has a lot of demand for farm and has a monstrously abusive early/mid game in certain lanes. I would lane Fiora nearly every time you want to play her in SR as her jungle is doable but it's not where she shines. Also, in lane, Fiora only has a small number of "hard counters" and most of those counters won't stop you from getting farm.
If you prefer jungle, pick a different champion for SR. If you aren't good with her in lane, play her until you get good with her.
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I am working on a pretty nice Fiora build that goes something like Flask+ward+pots -> Vamp -> Bruta /Boots -> BC -> Hydra. If I need more armor I will mix a wardens in there and get a tabi. Eventually I build a Randuins. Randuins active + Hydra active + your ult makes you have a pretty huge influence in teamfights. I think Fiora is really an underrated champ especially with the season 3 changes, and am kinda sad there has been no discussion of her since.
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United States3977 Posts
In my opinion, not much has changed for Fiora. Black Cleaver is certainly an option, but I still prefer the lifesteal and raw AD from Bloodthirster over the CDR and health of Black Cleaver, especially since more and more carries and tanks are building health over armor. Ravenous Hydra is a cool option, but again, unless you're doing a lot of split pushing I think it's still inferior to Bloodthirster.
Hexdrinker is still the go-to item in heavy magic damage lanes, Guardian Angel is still the best option after 2-3 damage items, Merc Treads are still the best boots against any team with CC (though I'll have to try Zephyr with Tabi or Zerks).
I lean towards DBlade over flask myself, because of Fiora's all-in power, relatively low mana costs, and modest health regen from passive. I'll give flask a go a few times - maybe with Tele and Hydra for a super split push style?
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I'm still sold on starting Flask+pots (maybe ward) on nearly every top/mid laner.
Build boots to counter lane.
Rush Brutalizer then Vamp Sceptre.
I will almost always turn my Vamp Sceptre into BotRK because of the HP stacking meta and its on-hit procs on every cast of your ult and the damage still hits for full even if your ult hits the same target. Plus the active slow on BotRK is VERY effective on Fiora since you have no other CC and it doesn't interrupt movement so its great for chasing and retreating.
Upgrade to Black Cleaver when they build armor.
The only adjustments I make is when to build armor/mr. My go to armor item is Randuins and for MR I get SV.
Hydra is nice but I still think BotRK is better in most cases although I've played around with both items.
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Ok guys, here's a thing. Fiora is fucking terribad in top lane blind pick, but she's actually insanely solid as a jungler now IF you build a tiamat. The key to playing her is to only gank when the stars are right, eg you have red, plenty of health and mana and a clean entrance. don't hang about trying to make things happen, farm farm farm. Your ganks will work better if the enemy isn't expecting you because you've left them well enough alone for most of the early game.
This is not a troll thing. Her opening jungle is rather weak, but she has a really nice level 4 gank when she has blue+red and lunge, parry and 2 ranks in BoS. If you can get an enemy halfway up lane, they're pretty much guaranteed dead even if they flash thanks to double lunge. If you can get that kill, you're set to become a monster.
Build is Mach+5pot >
Madreds and boots (+ longsword if you got the first gank kill) on your first back. >
from there rush tiamat, prioritising the longsword and pickaxe. Then grab whatever boots you feel appropriate (not merc treads) and zephyr (that's why not merc treads). From that point you can pretty much build tanky and still be pretty scary. the power of this build is her insane clear synergy once you get that tiamat built and BoS ranked.
Full build is something like ninja+hydra+zephyr+warmogs/randuins+spirit visage+wriggles(sell for a BT or trinity super late game).
Madreds+BoS+ tiamat will clear small camps in the duration of your BoS attack speed buff (often significantly less) and when fully ranked you then get a 45% movespeed boost to get you to the next camp. So you not only clear camps stupidly fast and economically, you get to the next camp stupidly fast to do it all over again. Once you have this set up, you can clear your jungle in insanely low times and have time to camp, counter jungle,counter gank or (my favourite XD) just go shove a lane when the enemy is roaming or just died. If you're doing it right you should easily be keeping up with your mid and top lane's farm, if not outdoing them and still having a reasonable amount of time to directly support your team, though this should rarely be your priority.
I reiterate that it is absolutely critical that you don't get big eyes early game and try and be a lane supporter. 1 gank before 6 is about right, and after that only when every camp is down and there aren't any really safe enemy camps to counter jungle until you get a couple of big items and start clearing your three small camps in sub 40 seconds. Failed ganks early game will really, really slow you down as she lacks sustain and is very mana hungry if you need to use all her abilities to clear smoothly. You want to get to the point where you only use BoS+Crescent in the jungle and can save your mana for ganks as quickly as possible.
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I actually think that Fiora's toplane is not that terrible. I mean it's risky in blind pick because there are a few lanes where you get shut down pretty hard but against most of the common tops you can at least survive and farm. In fact her hardest counters aren't even that popular in top lane anymore. If you don't feel comfortable with top lane Fiora you can always run her mid if you can convince your team. She has a lot of favorable match ups in mid lane.
I think the issue with jungle Fiora has always been that it's really risky. If the enemy team runs a gank centric jungler it's unlikely that your random solo queue lanes are going to be able to win with only limited support from their jungler (since you really aren't that great of a ganker and you can't really afford to gank that often). You're also combining the fact that you're gonna have less gold income than lane Fiora and she's a very gold hungry champion. If your lanes can do okay with very limited jungle support and your team can make the game go long enough for you to hit your item stride jungle Fiora is really strong. But just like every other carry jungler there are so many things that can go wrong that will just leave you feeling worthless.
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I disagree that you'll have less gold income than lane fiora. Just for example, I played a couple of games yesterday in a premade with a friend who is maybe 500-600 elo up on me right now, he was playing morg mid and getting free farm all day because he was up against terrible enemy laners, so it's fair to say he was getting close to optimum farm. I stayed even with him until about 10 minutes, at which point I started out CSing him hard and ended up with maybe 30% more. In both games I had more gold than him endgame despite the fact he got like eight or ten more kills/assists than me in both games, and in one of those games I had a fairly mediocre start (died ganking top early and lost my buffs).
The strength with fiora jungle is unless you have a super coordinated enemy team (which I admit I have gone up against and it was horrible) who constantly invades in groups to shut you down, you WILL get farmed and you WILL get to the point where you can carry fights.
I agree with you that solo que pubbers have difficulty holding off without support, and I do support a little, typically either a level 2 gank vs an overextending mid if my mid has some good CC, more commonly a level 4 gank once I have lunge and red which so far has about a 90% conversion rate, but I pick my ganks in advance and don't hang around trying to make them happen. I also abuse the overly ganky tendencies of most soloque junglers by counterjungling super hard when they gank otherwise show themselves, or by holding lanes safe once a gank has gone down and getting even more fed off the lane CS. It's a kind of selfish style of play, but it fits the common soloque wisdom of making sure YOU can carry the game, not relying on your team to do it for you. Consequently, I've literally never felt like I wasn't a massive contributor to victory by the time it happens. Which is every single time but one (I think I'm now 15-1 with her in normals) and that was a game where I had to try and carry against a rammus, shen, chogath and olaf. Fun times XD.
I know what you're saying about feeling worthless, that's the biggest issue I have with fiora lane, you go one way or the other. What I'm trying to say about the jungle is that if you play it right, you achieve a positive snowball FAR more consistently than in lane.
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United States3977 Posts
You should upload some reps of jungle Fiora.
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yah, I prob should. I'm gonna see if I can capture a few games and stick em on youtube.
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EPT
