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On March 20 2012 10:10 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote:
sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor. i think you are completely 100% wrong. How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks? Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out. How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen? Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold. I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote. i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong.
If you're not well versed with the game mechanics enough to know why bruta isn't that good vs high armor targets, why wriggles is great top lane, why sheen is inferior to phage for someone like wukong I would be kinda hesitant about striding into this subforum is insulting one of our most experienced and helpful posters.
Like not knowing stuff isn't bad. But when you don't actually have correct factual information AND insult people who do and are trying to help you, then please, don't expect people to give any weight to what you say.
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IMO Sheen is still > Phage and Ill try to explain my reason as to why.
In any engagement in a 1v1 with a sheen. You are guarenteed at least 2 procs. and CAN get 3 if you know how to use wukong.
E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto. = 3.
If you are lazy u will get 2.
E, auto, Q, auto, W, auto.
Sheen + Double Dorans Combo= ( you SHOULD have roughly 140 AD by the time u have this combo of items)
E+ 90+20, Q+90+20, W +90 (if you time all 3... only +280 if u only use 2 sheen procs)And the +20 for every autoattack from ur +ad = 10 x 20 = +200 damage from auto attacks.
We are looking at 200+200 for the lazy wukong
and 420+200 for the wukong who manages his sheen procs/cds better.
=400 or optimally +510.
If you go phage + wriggles however... you will have
E+ 32.8, Q + 45.1, W+0. But Phage does boost ur auto attacks +41 per hit. In an engagemetn u will get roughly 10 autoattacks. This comes out to an additional +410 damage.
410 + 32.9+45.1
= 400/510 vs 488
So ya a lazy wukong will lose by 8 damage to a wriggle phage, but he also saved 705 gold. U can add on a longsword and are 10 gold from a cloth armor. Or u can add a 3rd dorans for +10 more (which would edge out the wriggles/phage combo even on lazy wukong and still be 230 gold left over)
Wriggles + Phage = 2915
Stats=
+41 AD
+225 HP
+30 armor
15% lifesteal
And Chance to crit on creeps.
25% chance to slow.
Sheen + Double Dorans = 2210 Gold = 705 Gold left over. *get a 3rd dorans and u get +10 more Ad, +100 more hp and +3% more lifesteal and you still have 230 gold left over*
stats
+20 Ad
+200 hp
+250 mana
6% lifesteal
And Sheen Procs = +280-420 damage in a 1v1.
Sheen + Triple Dorans = 2685
30 Ad
300 HP
250 Mana -I think this is totally underrated also. As wukong u should be using ur full rotation to do "pokes" at ur enemy. With +250 mana this will give u 2 more full combos, be4 u only have enuf mana for 1 rotation of everything = making ur opponent eeither sustain an extra 500+ damage, or go B. As there are many heros who sustain so well that even after continually poking, you will go oom be4 they need to B = u are completely screwed as Wukong relies on mana for his skills and therefore his damage.
9% lifesteal
And Sheen PRocs.
+230 gold.
I know a Phage would beat a sheen in an auto-attack race... clearly. But wukong is not an auto-attacking hero.
He is a CD hero, who is about dancing in and out and using ur skills correctly.
So i guess its up to you, but personally I know which one I prefer. And I know that played right, it will outperform a phage wriggles combo, and give me 700 more gold to work with.
I know Wriggles gives more lifesteal and more armor= more sustain.
But Double dorans is nearly 600 gold cheaper, and gives you nearly equal stats, and if u want you can go triple dorans, and in my opnion have greater stats than a wriggles, and still save 175 gold.
Now Ill do the straight Wriggles Vs Dorans.
Wriggles 1600 gold
+23 Ad
+30 Armor
15% lifesteal
Chance to crit on creep.
Double Doran 950 gold
+20 AD
+200 Hp
6% lifesteal.
+650 gold
Triple Doran 1425 gold
+30 Ad
+300 Hp
9% lifesteal
+175 gold.
Again, a wriggles SLIGHTLY edges out Double dorans, but only barely, and at the cost of 650 gold.
It Loses to Triple dorans, and is still 175 more gold.
It will give you better sustain, but in my opninion, if you have dominance over your lane opponent that is > sustain as u can simply work him down and foce him off lane.
Wukong has poor sustain, and works better as a bully rather than a competitor for sustainability.
15% of 150 AD = ur only getting 22.5 hp a hit.
which is still very low, and u are still going to be dragging health pots with u to lane, so i dont think wriggles sustain is justifiable by its extra cost.
Not to mention 650 gold in the first 10 mins is a HUGE amount of gold. IT will mean simply getting more items ahead of ur opponent who goes Wriggles instead of double dorans. = u will always be more gold efficient.
So I still think Doubleor even Triple dorans are more efficient than a Wriggles.
And I still think a Sheen is more efficient than a Phage, especially when you get it in the order I suggest in my post.
(i did not do the math with a brutalizer included in calculatioins because I am assuming both buils have one = they cancel eachother out.)
Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
But again, I dont have any problem admitting when I am wrong, I just would prefer someone showing me rather than saying
"I build wriggles because its better, ur dumb for not liking it"
However I do think Wriggles is the shit in the jungle and completely necessary on some heros even outside of the jungle
*(like shyvana)*
Not to mention, a Sheen will WAY outdamage i phage in simple "pokes" as i call them. *where u dive in, hit Q after, and W or just run out*. Because when u do these quick exchanges u should NOT get more than 2 auto attacks = +80 damage from ur phage, or +110 from ur sheen. = 30 more damage everytime u poke, and this is if u dont go back to hit again after ur W... which would give the Sheen Wukong an additional +110, and the Phage Wukong an additional +40.
Writing this all twice at 1 AM on 5 hours of sleep, prob = there are some errors. But show them to me.
Show me where I am wrong, and I can admit I was wrong.
Dont just tell me "u just are bad and dont understand."
Also... Another reason I favor dorans over wriggles. Wukongs Passive gives u Mr and Armor. Since you get armor from ur passive, I prefer the Health from dorans over the armor from wriggles. Even the OP points that out in regards to the passive.
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Uhh, you have a misconception of how Sheen works. It only applies to your base attack damage, and nothing else (not runes, not masteries, not items)
With those items you'll probably be around level 8-9? So you'll have around 80 base AD. Instead of the 140 dmg per sheen proc in your calculations it'll only be 80. So really optimally you'd only get 620-180=440 dmg, falling below your phage dmg calculations.
Sheen is definitely better in burst trades(getting 1 or 2 procs), but phage is better for sustained damage and also has an invaluable slow
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I Changed the sheen calculations after i realized that.
And even then, the lazy wukong is losing by 80 damage, but saving 800 gold.
Also I think wukong flourishes as a poke/combo hero anyways and not an autoattacker.
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On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote:
Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing
so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following:
damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100])
so if you have 100 armor, you have
damage taken = (100/[100+100])
damage taken = (100/200)
damage taken = 0.5
damage taken = 50%
you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take
if armor is 25, you have
damage taken = (100/[25+100])
damage taken = (100/125)
damage taken = 0.8
damage taken = 80%
if armor is 5, you have
damage taken = (100/[5+100])
damage taken = (100/105)
damage taken = 0.952
damage taken = 95%
therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps!
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On March 20 2012 17:35 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote:
Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following: damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100]) so if you have 100 armor, you have damage taken = (100/[100+100]) damage taken = (100/200) damage taken = 0.5 damage taken = 50% you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take if armor is 25, you have damage taken = (100/[25+100]) damage taken = (100/125) damage taken = 0.8 damage taken = 80% if armor is 5, you have damage taken = (100/[5+100]) damage taken = (100/105) damage taken = 0.952 damage taken = 95% therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps!
Ok thanks.
I was assuming that armor was a flat reducer and not a percentage reducer and thats Why i could not figure out why I was wrong in my assumptions. A flawed understanding I brought over from different games' mechanics.
I apologize then, a brutalizer is more effective on lower armor enemies. (tho still to defend my post from yesterday.. u will get a brutalizer in the first 5-10 mins when ur opponent will have a max of 100 armor imo)
And thanks. I am only trying to argue my point that my build order was more gold-efficient than others previously stated and that I was not "building in the wrong order"
I also really enjoyed setting it down in numbers, because i know i prefer the style I do for a reason... but it was purely based off of feeling. And now after doing the numbers I realize why i like it more. I used to play strictly wriggles on top.. but after observing some players who i enjoy watching as well as other players i see in-games.. i started favoring stacking dorans and not getting wriggles and my play got a lot better with these builds letting me bully heros I couldnt before. I USED to prefer wriggles but I just dont think its as good now *ON WUKONG* as i used to. I still think there are heros that u HAVE to go wriggles on tho.
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As a Wukong player...I'll tell u guys to avoid solo top vs.
Pantheon
Tryndamere
Can't think of anymore at the moment but these 2 are really troublesome for Wukong. Tyrn, I can somewhat pull off if I don't play the trading blow game since his sustain is infinitely better. And if I can get him with the Dash in- hit - decoy combo effectively. But Pantheon's passive and early game strength just knocks Wukong out of the water.
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Ya... the only time u beat a pantheon is if he starts off SUPER greedy. Like i went cloth 5 vs a pantheon who started off Long sword 1 pot... and i was able to stomp him by poking and outsustaining him.
Also when i run wukong vs a top hero who does a lot of AD damage i run armor quints instead of AD quints, and occasionally even Armor reds instead of AD reds. They will help a ton, and will make last hitting harder, but its worth staying on lane that much longer.
But other than that... Pantheons passive hardcore stomps "poking" so u have to catch him when he goes to melee a creep with an auto attack, to take off his passive.. then u combo him. Try to throw in as many combo's be4 he gets passive back up... then repeat. Just make sure to never blow an ability on his passive.
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^ Totally agree
I think a better strategy might be...walking up to him in the distance where he can pounce on you...decoy immediately, he pounces on your decoy, uses his heartseeker on your decoy, THEN you E + auto attack + Q + attack while his junk is on cooldown...
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On March 20 2012 17:38 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 17:35 gtrsrs wrote:On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote:
Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
i don't want to dissect your whole post, i think you are doing a good thing by suggesting a new technique and mathing it out, BUT i think i can help you with the bruta thing so the way damage reduction works in LoL is the following: damage taken from a physical source = (100/[armor +100]) so if you have 100 armor, you have damage taken = (100/[100+100]) damage taken = (100/200) damage taken = 0.5 damage taken = 50% you should be able to quickly see that the lower your armor is, the more damage you take if armor is 25, you have damage taken = (100/[25+100]) damage taken = (100/125) damage taken = 0.8 damage taken = 80% if armor is 5, you have damage taken = (100/[5+100]) damage taken = (100/105) damage taken = 0.952 damage taken = 95% therefor we can conclude that taking someone from 350 armor (22.2% damage taken) to 330 armor (23.3% damage taken) is much less impactful than taking someone from 50 armor (66.7% damage taken) to 20 armor (83.3% damage taken). therefor, items with flat armor penetration (i.e brutalizer) are much more effective the LOWER the opponent's starting armor. hope that helps! I also really enjoyed setting it down in numbers, because i know i prefer the style I do for a reason... but it was purely based off of feeling. And now after doing the numbers I realize why i like it more. I used to play strictly wriggles on top.. but after observing some players who i enjoy watching as well as other players i see in-games.. i started favoring stacking dorans and not getting wriggles and my play got a lot better with these builds letting me bully heros I couldnt before. I USED to prefer wriggles but I just dont think its as good now *ON WUKONG* as i used to. I still think there are heros that u HAVE to go wriggles on tho.
This has to do with gold efficiency. DBlades are insanely efficient. Imagine spending your first 1.3k gold on boots, long sword, cloth, and an assortment of pots/wards. You would get much better mileage for your money spending it on boots, 2x dblades, and pots/wards. However, once Wriggle's is completed it's along the same line of gold efficiency as dblades.
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On March 20 2012 11:05 iaeuy wrote:
Armor is more efficient when you have low armor, so (flat) armor pen is also more efficient on low armor opponents. Example:
15 armor target -> 13% damage reduction
after 15 apen -> 0% damage reduction
100 armor target -> 50% damage reduction
after 15 apen -> 46% damage reduction
13% increase in damage is more than 4% :o
Armor is not more efficient when you have low armor, though it is a common misconception. Your reasonning with % damage reduction is misleading because not every percent is worth the same. Let's say you go from 0% damage reduction (no armor) to 5% damage reduction (some armor), basically you go from taking full damage to taking almost full damage, not a big improvement. Now say you go from 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction, congratulations you've successfully reduce the damage you take by 2. So this one percent is a lot bigger than the 5% of the previous example.
On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote:
(i did not do the math with a brutalizer included in calculatioins because I am assuming both buils have one = they cancel eachother out.)
Also I still dont understand how canceling 20 armor from 30 is more effective than taking 30 armor away from 50. IN both cases a brutalizer takes away a flat amount of armor (20) rendering it the exact same effect regardless of ur targets armor. And in any case, if he has less then 20 armor, a brutalizer would be less efficient on him then on a target with +20 or more. Because if he has less then 20 armor u are paying for meaningless +armor pen.
I hope it won't be my turn to make maths mistakes  The brutalizer is indeed not fully useful if your target is already way under 25 armor when you buy it. Regarding why bruta is more effective against low armor, we can take an example.
Target 1 has 25 armor when you buy your bruta, now it has 0 armor when you hit it. Its effective health points went from 125% of its health to 100% of its health, ie 80 % of what it used to be. In short, you now need to do 80% of the damage you had to do before to drop him from 100 to 0, or you kill him 25% faster than you used to.
Target 2 has 125 armor when you buy bruta, now it has 100 armor when you hit it. EHP when from 225% of its health to 200%, ie around 89% of what it used to be. You kill him 12,5% faster than you used to.
By the way R04R is correct, sheen only applies base damage and ignores all forms of bonus damage. You also forgot or didn't know that sheen procs have a 2 seconds cooldown. There is no way you can get 3 procs from a "E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto" combo.
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On March 20 2012 17:20 MaestroSC wrote:
IMO Sheen is still > Phage and Ill try to explain my reason as to why.
Maths
I'm not certain why you're mathing out these particular combination of items, rather than comparing them individually. Sheen + 2 DBlades is really 2 components, Sheen, and the incredibly gold efficient Dblade. The initial assertion, to the best of my knowledge, was that Sheen is a better item to start with when building trinity force than Phage. Wriggles and Dblades should be taken out of that equation, since there's nothing stopping you from picking up 2 Dblades with Phage. So basically, the proc vs the 18 AD. Also consider that if phage does proc, it's most likely going to convert into at least another autoattack.
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@Maestro Sorry, but I don't really have the time to break all your stuff down for you right now. Not trying to be an ass, I appreciate you putting effort into mathing your stuff out and backing your opinion, but you still seem green in terms of understanding the game mechanics. As others have said, dblades vs. wriggle's is one argument and sheen vs. phage is another, you can't lump them together and hope to prove anything. I'll try to go through why I favor wriggle's after work tonight, but no promises since I've been having to work late this week.
For Sheen vs. Phage though, there are a number of issues that you're ignoring that I'll just point out without doing the nitty gritty math.
1. Ult: Sheen does nothing for your ult, Phage adds to the AD scaling.
2. HP: Even if Sheen outperforms Phage from a damage standpoint, you need to account for the fact that Sheen does nothing else for you, while Phage adds a big 225 buffer to your HP pool.
3. Utility: Sheen adds nothing other than damage, Phage can assist in a chase with your team and allow others to catch up via its slow.
4. Issues with the Damage Calculation: As someone else said, Phage's slow can easily convert into another auto attack that you wouldn't have gotten with sheen. Additionally, spacing your combo out for sheen procs can end up hurting your overall damage output because you're waiting on your Q, rather than using it early in the combo to utilize the armor reduction.
I also find it a little odd that you repeatedly say that Wukong isn't an auto attacker and then list his burst combo as having 6 auto attacks in it.
On March 20 2012 17:42 GhostOwl wrote:
As a Wukong player...I'll tell u guys to avoid solo top vs.
Pantheon
Tryndamere
Can't think of anymore at the moment but these 2 are really troublesome for Wukong. Tyrn, I can somewhat pull off if I don't play the trading blow game since his sustain is infinitely better. And if I can get him with the Dash in- hit - decoy combo effectively. But Pantheon's passive and early game strength just knocks Wukong out of the water.
Tryndamere's not that hard IMO. Played it in AHGL vs. the only other player above 1900 elo and all I had to do was Wriggle's + Ninja Tabi -> Chain Vest -> HoG + Phage. Once I hit chain vest, the lane was over, he could not longer do jack to me. Basically, the lane isn't bad because Wukong's base damages are high enough that he can basically straight stack Armor for 10-15 minutes and still be useful, while Trynd needs to build damage to do jack later in the game.
Pantheon's rough though, not really winable unless you manage to hit 6 without a big deficit, which can pretty much only happen if he's bad or you get jungler help.
Regarding Quints: as I said in the OP, I tend to favor resists and/or regen on my quints to cover my ass in early laning.
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On March 20 2012 11:05 iaeuy wrote:
Sheen builds mana and ap, neither of which will help win exchanges. So you're more or less paying 1260g for just the passive.
Or for 55g more you could buy phage, which has both good stats and a useful passive. 3 Just the +18 ad alone will give +120 damage to your full rotation. Factor in the hp + slow and sheen passive by itself really starts too look like its not worth 1.2k gold.
Armor is more efficient when you have low armor, so (flat) armor pen is also more efficient on low armor opponents. Example:
15 armor target -> 13% damage reduction
after 15 apen -> 0% damage reduction
100 armor target -> 50% damage reduction
after 15 apen -> 46% damage reduction
13% increase in damage is more than 4% :o
[2]Wriggles is good if you want armor because its efficient and provides stats you want in addition to armor. Not much reason not to buy it if you want a mid tier item that gives armor alongside other stats. Also I don't think Mogwai was saying to buy it "just for the armor." I mean like if you ever find yourself wanting "just armor" on wukong then yeah go ahead and build 6 chain vests or w/e.
1. 54/50=1.08. 8% increase in damage and
1.13/1=13% increase in damage
There is no 4%
2. Wriggles has its problems, it reduces sustain compared to just vamp scepter since it clears waves too fast and the proc doesn't lifesteal. It also makes it harder to donate blue and messes with my csing a lot more than it helps it. It's not a bad item because it has two amazing uniques but it's not mandatory unless you're jungling someone with low sustain imo.
3. You're assuming wukong gets off a full ult in his rotation.
On March 20 2012 11:18 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 10:10 MaestroSC wrote:On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote:
sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor. i think you are completely 100% wrong. How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks? Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out. How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen? Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold. I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote. i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong. Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out. It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it.
4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options.
I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult.
I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though.
On March 20 2012 18:45 NpG)Explosive wrote:
By the way R04R is correct, sheen only applies base damage and ignores all forms of bonus damage. You also forgot or didn't know that sheen procs have a 2 seconds cooldown. There is no way you can get 3 procs from a "E, auto attack autoattack, Q, auto auto, W, auto auto" combo.
It's not even a 2 second cooldown. Iirc some people in the general thread were posting about how triforce and sheen procs weren't consistent, that they worked on a timer rather than a cooldown. This means if you get lucky you can get two sheen procs in a row while spamming abilities and if you're not lucky you might get only one while trying to space your abilities out.
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On March 21 2012 00:21 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 11:18 petered wrote:On March 20 2012 10:10 MaestroSC wrote:On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote:
sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor. i think you are completely 100% wrong. How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks? Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out. How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen? Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold. I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote. i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong. Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out. It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it. 4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options. I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult. I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though.
you're sensationalizing it just as much as he was, knock it off. the reason I gave short answers was because I didn't have a lot of time and a lot of the things I wanted to say were straight mechanical discussions that have been had hundreds of times on these forums. I'm tired of explaining Flat Armor Pen, I'm tired of explaining why sunfire is bad and I'm tired of explaining Wriggle's vs. Dblades.
As for Zeal vs. Sheen, it's a synergy thing. When you have phage and are trying to keep up with people and bash them enough to get a phage proc off to let teammates catch up, zeal is a no brainer vs. sheen, though obviously if you're just doing EaQa and then peacing out in 1v1 scenarios, you should be grabbing sheen. w/e, zeal vs. sheen is situational, but phage vs. sheen is pretty heavily in phage's favor IMO, but all this is sorta moot since I'm rarely building triforce any earlier than 4th item anyway.
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On March 21 2012 00:37 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:21 obesechicken13 wrote:On March 20 2012 11:18 petered wrote:On March 20 2012 10:10 MaestroSC wrote:On March 19 2012 22:31 Mogwai wrote:
sometimes you can delay boots that long, but not usually.
sheen is the worst of the 3 items in trinity on wukong. phage is the best. you build them in the wrong order.
brutalizer is best vs. low armor targets, not high armor targets.
sunfire cape is a pretty terrible item that you should be switching out for omen in your builds, especially since they all seem to include warmog's.
wriggle's is good if you want armor, which is most of the time in top lane. but as the op says, double dblade is fine if you don't need the armor. i think you are completely 100% wrong. How is sheen the worst item from a hero that does all of his damage from skills and not autoattacks? Also sunfire cape is purely situational. I dont go it in most optimal builds, but occasionally the additional hp and armor is amazing. Having 4k hp when u dive into a team to ult = u tank a ton of hits and just W out. How is brutalizer bad against heavy armor opponents when it gives armor pen? Buying wriggles just for armor is stupid when u can just buy the 700 gold armor item or just get tabi instead for less gold. I think the Omen part is a decent suggestion but i think you are completely wrong in every other sentence you wrote. i love how u give answers with absolutely 0 reasons or explaining and say "because i said so". but whatever keep building phage be4 sheen. idc if more people build wrong. Mogwai is a high elo player who contributes a lot of information to this subforum. 4 He is allowed to give shorter answers without as much explanation because he is well known and we all trust that he has a thought out position. A lot of times people just want information from a better player, he wasn't trying to be mean, just helping out. It is ok to disagree but there is no need to get huffy about it. 4 We should all go to war when a politician says to with no reason because they are well known and we can trust that they have thought through all possible options. I don't think you can say whether phage or sheen is better as a starting item for triforce. Sheen gives mana and MR, phage gives health and a slow. Overall in general cases where someone plays wukong with 3 procs of sheen he'll do more damage but it's hard to do that and it's uncertain whether a slow would have helped more with keeping someone in wukong's ult. I would like to argue that saying zeal was better than sheen was wrong though. you're sensationalizing it just as much as he was, knock it off. the reason I gave short answers was because I didn't have a lot of time and a lot of the things I wanted to say were straight mechanical discussions that have been had hundreds of times on these forums. I'm tired of explaining Flat Armor Pen, I'm tired of explaining why sunfire is bad and I'm tired of explaining Wriggle's vs. Dblades. As for Zeal vs. Sheen, it's a synergy thing. When you have phage and are trying to keep up with people and bash them enough to get a phage proc off to let teammates catch up, zeal is a no brainer vs. sheen, though obviously if you're just doing EaQa and then peacing out in 1v1 scenarios, you should be grabbing sheen. w/e, zeal vs. sheen is situational, but phage vs. sheen is pretty heavily in phage's favor IMO, but all this is sorta moot since I'm rarely building triforce any earlier than 4th item anyway.
Yeah I guess I wouldn't like someone using sarcastic comparisons on my arguments.
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I did the math with the double dorans included because in my post that was the build i was saying was optimal. and then i was told why getting a phage would be more optimal, but imo getting sheen is because of its synergy with the items you got earlier.
Ya phage gives you hp, but if you follow what i said i said you get the 2x dorans first so u are already getting the +200 hp from phage.
And I still think that the +mana from sheen is a big bonus. And Ok Ill give u that when u have a phage, you might get 1/2 extra attacks, but sheen will still give u better bursts and pokes.
Also I dont understand how you make the point of me saying Wukong isnt an auto attacker and then complain that i used auto attacks in my calculations.... obviously if ur in melee range you should autoattack if ur getting free hits... I am obviously not arguing that u should ignore auto attacking forever... I am just saying that majority of his damage comes from his skills and not auto attacking (like example trynd's damage is 90% auto attacking)
Not to mention even you agreed that a Sheen is a better poke item, which is imo why its better on wukong, whose combo is the perfect "whittle em down" poke combo.
SO IDK I made my case why i prefer dorans to wriggles. And why i prefer sheen to phage. Not anything more I can do some people are simply going to ignore the entire post and stick to "wriggles is awsome cause X told me it is".
Also Sheen procs on ur ult as well. which IS a benefit.
Also in the 2nd half there is a straight comparison between wriggles and dorans. People just didnt read down that far before telling me I am wrong again -.-
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On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
I did the math with the double dorans included because in my post that was the build i was saying was optimal. and then i was told why getting a phage would be more optimal, but imo getting sheen is because of its synergy with the items you got earlier.
Ya phage gives you hp, but if you follow what i said i said you get the 2x dorans first so u are already getting the +200 hp from phage.
I don't care if you include double dblade in the build, I just care that if you want to compare sheen vs. phage, you include the same other items for the sake of the comparison. Again, dblades vs. wriggle's is one argument, phage vs. sheen is another. When comparing a variable (in this case, sheen vs. phage), keep everything outside of them constant, it's a pretty fundamental piece of how to scientifically approach things.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
And I still think that the +mana from sheen is a big bonus. And Ok Ill give u that when u have a phage, you might get 1/2 extra attacks, but sheen will still give u better bursts and pokes.
those 1/2 extra attacks make up the difference in your damage calculations though...
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
Also I dont understand how you make the point of me saying Wukong isnt an auto attacker and then complain that i used auto attacks in my calculations.... obviously if ur in melee range you should autoattack if ur getting free hits... I am obviously not arguing that u should ignore auto attacking forever... I am just saying that majority of his damage comes from his skills and not auto attacking (like example trynd's damage is 90% auto attacking)
I'm not complaining, merely saying I find it amusing. your whole other argument about dblades vs. wriggle's is based around wu not being an auto-attacker who benefits that much from the extra lifesteal and armor, yet you're outlining burst damages as 5-6 second engagements with a ton of auto attacks.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
Not to mention even you agreed that a Sheen is a better poke item, which is imo why its better on wukong, whose combo is the perfect "whittle em down" poke combo.
Than Phage? Where did I say that? I said Sheen is better at poking than Zeal, but Phage is comparable to Sheen in terms of poke, and is better in terms of chasing and sustained engagements.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
SO IDK I made my case why i prefer dorans to wriggles. And why i prefer sheen to phage. Not anything more I can do some people are simply going to ignore the entire post and stick to "wriggles is awsome cause X told me it is".
Oh great, martyring yourself. now I'm REALLY motivated to pay attention to you.
On March 21 2012 04:05 MaestroSC wrote:
Also Sheen procs on ur ult as well. which IS a benefit.
If by "procs on your ult," you mean that the next attack after your ult will have the sheen proc applied to it, then sure, but it doesn't increase your ult's damage in any way, shape, or form, whereas Phage adds 21.6 damage/second to your ult.
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Another factor in getting Sheen first is it means you have to go Triforce or sell it. I know this forum isn't big on Mallet but Phage first leaves that build path open to you as well.
Phage has more versatility/utility overall I think, Sheen is committing to damage.
Usually on Wu I'll go Wriggles Phage Giants Belt then adjust if I can afford to get Warmogs or if I'll just move on to Chain Vest/Atmas and settle for Mallet later.
As far as Wriggles vs D.Blades I like having the proc to go mess with the enemies jungle since Wu can be pretty slipperly, and stolen red or blue on Wukong is very scary.
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Don't use personal attacks. This subforum doesn't need another deterrent to arguing.
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EPT
